Page

ILLINOIS

POLLUTION

CONTROL

BOARD

THE

MATTER

OF:

WATER

QUALITY

STANDARDS

AND

)

R08-09

EFFLUENT

LIMITATIONS FOR THE

)

(Rulerna

CHICAGO

AREA

WATERWAY

SYSTEM

)

Water)

AND

THE

LOWER

DES PLAINES

RIVER:

PROPOSED

AMENDMENTS

)

232009

35 Ill.

Adm.

Code

Parts

)

STATEoFLuNoI

301,

302,

303

and

304

)

Pollution

Contro

Goad

REPORT

PROCEEDINGS

held

the

above—entitled

cause

before

Hearing

Officer

Marie

Tipsord,

called

the

Illinois

Pollution

Control

Board,

taken

before

Laura

Mukahirn,

CSR,

notary

public

within

and

for

the

County

Cook and

State

of Illinois,

160

North

LaSalle

Street,

Room

N—502,

Chicago,

Illinois,

the 9th

day

November,

2009,

commencing

the

hour

of 12:30

p.m.

Page

APPEARANCES

MS.

MARIE

TIPSORD,

Hearing

Officer

MR. GIRARD

TANNER,

Chairman

MR.

THOMAS

JOHNSON,

Member

MR.

ANAND

RAO,

Member

MS. ALISA

LIU,

Member

MS.

ANDREA

MOORE,

Member

DR. SHUNDAR

LIN, Member

Appearing

behalf

of the

Illinois

Pollution

Control

Board

ILLINOIS

ENVIRONMENTAL

PROTECTION AGENCY

1021

North

Grand

Avenue

East

P.O.

Box

19276

Springfield, Illinois

62794—9276

(217)782—5544

BY:

MS.

DEBORAH

WILLIAMS

MS. STEPHANIE

DIERS

MR.

ROBERT

SULSKI

MR.

SCOTT

TWAIT

MR. HOWARD

ESSIG

MR.

ROY SMOGOR

FRANZETTI

LAW

FIRM

South

LaSalle

Street

Suite

3600

Chicago,

Illinois

60603

(312)251—5590

BY:

MS.

SUSAN

FRANZETTI

Appearing

behalf

of Midwest

Generation

Page

HEARING

OFFICER TIPSORD:

It’s

12:44.

Good

afternoon,

everyone.

Welcome

back.

We’re

ready

start

the

afternoon

with

the

testimony

Greg

Seegert;

that

correct?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Seegert.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Can

also

have

Mr.

VonDruska

sworn.

may

not

wind

adding

anything,

but

the

event

he does,

this

way

he’s

already

sworn

in.

(Witnesses sworn.)

HEARING

OFFICER TIPSORD:

Thank

you.

And

with

that,

we’ll

mark

the

prefiled

testimony

Greg

Seegert.

there’s

objection,

we’ll

mark

prefiled

testimony

Exhibit

366.

Seeing

none,

it’s

Exhibit

366.

And

believe

we’ll

start

with

the

IEPA.

Examination

Ms.

Diers

Good

afternoon,

Mr.

Seegert.

name

Stephanie

Diers,

and

will

asking

questions

behalf

Illinois

EPA.

And

I’m

going

begin

with

our

prefiled

question

Please

explain

your

experience

with

the

waters

that

are

part

the

Page 4

Illinois EPAs proposal.

MS. FRANZETTI:

And

you

did mean

include extensive experience?

MS. DIERS:

Yes.

Sorry.

MR. ETTINGER:

But not with

Commonwealth Edison.

MR. SEEGERT:

I’ve been studying the

Dresden, Brandon, and Lockport pools almost

annually since I came

EA, which was in

early 1982. I also

studied the

south

branch

of the Chicago River near the Mid General

Fisk Station, and although I’ve been

involved

with those studies for 27 years, my role

has

changed over time. When I first came I was

younger and stronger and I

used to go out and

field work fairly regularly. And

part of that

I was

involved directly in the

fish collections, the electrofishing, the

seining, the gillnetting, all the things

that

field biologists

do.

Then when

became

project manager, which was

about

1985,

that point I didn’t

go out

in the field

nearly

much,

but

I was still involved

preparing

the

final reports and overseeing

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Page 12

than

others.

But

yes, that

answer applies

throughout the

system.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

If I

could

just

have

moment.

(Of f the

record.)

MS.

FRANZETTI:

the

witness can

clarify

or modify

his

answer.

MR.

SEEGERT:

Well, I mean

there

are

parts

the CAWS

which we

haven’t

really

talked very

much

about,

but

where

there

isn’t

barge

traffic

going on.

So obviously

the

answer

would not apply

to there.

When I’m

talking

about

the

system,

guess

should

clarify,

I’m

primarily

talking

about the

ship

canal

which

begins

the

south

fork,

but

I’m

also

including

the

south fork,

since

functionally it’s

the

same system

as the ship

canal and

then

the

Lower Des

Plaines River.

those

are

the areas

that I’m

talking

about.

BY MS.

DIERS:

Where

does

Brandon Pool

fit in

the

areas that

you’re

talking

about?

Well, according

to the

rulemaking,

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Page 14

is it in

one of them?

Can

you

clarify, Greg?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Could

you

repeat

the

question,

please.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

you

mind

if I jump

in?

You’re

trying

get

clarity

there.

You

tend

to use

two terms:

Chicago

Sanitary and

Ship Canal

and the

ship canal.

And then

you

refer

either

Lower

Des Plaines,

sometimes

think

you

say -- you

use

the

regulatory

term Upper

Dresden

Island Pool.

Their

question is

Brandon

Pool in one

those

categories or

are

you

leaving

out?

MR. SEEGERT:

It’s

in both of

those

categories.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Okay.

MR. SEEGERT:

Part

Brandon Pool

the ship canal

and

part of it is

the

Lower Des

Plaines.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Based

what’s

been

proposed

in this rule?

MR. SEEGERT:

What’s

been

proposed.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Counsel,

does that

it?

MR.

ETTINGER:

have

clarifying

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the

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Des

Plaines

which

is a

smaller

water

body,

sort of

the distinction

between

some

people

live

big

cities,

some

people

live

in small

towns.

There’s

nothing

physically

preventing

them

from

moving

from

one

place

another,

but they

tend

to like

one

area

over

the

other.

MR.

ETTINGER:

What if

fish

had

job

the

lower

just

north

the

damn,

might have

commute.

MR.

SEEGERT:

I’m

not aware

any

fish

that

have

jobs.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Thank you.

BY MS.

DIERS:

Mr.

Seegert,

in the

line

of questions

I was

asking

you

before

where

you

thought

Illinois

EPA

failed,

and

you

talked

about

some

the

habitat

data.

Could

you be

more specific

about

what

data

was

available

but

ignored

Illinois

EPA?

I don’t

think

said

was

—- I

didn’t

say

ignored

Illinois

EPA.

Based

reading

of everything

that

was provided,

looked

you

relied

primarily

on the

data,

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that.

Well,

you

can

those

things,

but

to do

it in a

meaningful

manner

where

you’re

actually

going

to make

difference

in the

biological

community,

you

have

to do

lot

of it.

When

you do

lot

something,

costs

lot of

money.

And

there aren’t

any plans

for

this level

remediation

restoration

that

we’re

not

aware

of.

And,

said,

we’ve

collected

data

on the

fish,

the

habitat,

sediment

quality.

Another

MR. ETTINGER:

Excuse

me.

I hate

interrupt,

but

this

remediation

study

part

of your

testimony

somewhere?

it in

the

exhibit?

MR.

SEEGERT:

I’m

not

going

testify

with

regard

remediation,

no.

MR. ETTINGER:

But

you

just

did.

MR.

SEEGERT:

Well

-—

MS.

FRANZETTI:

wants

you to

explain

further

what

you’re

referring

remediation

and restoration

systems.

MR.

SEEGERT:

Right.

I guess

this

case,

the

way

I was

using

was

limited

sense.

Remediation

would

-- the

example

I’m

thinking

would

removal

of the

Page 22

contaminated

sediment.

So that’s not

restoration.

That’s, in my mind,

remediation.

MR.

ETTINGER:

I’m

sorry.

I thought

you were taking

about habitat

structures, and

I didn’t

see any

study

of the

cost of

including

habitat

structures. But

you aren’t

referring

to that when

you

were

testifying?

MR.

SEEGERT: Well, I’m

saying that

you

needed

to do

restoration

system

this, the

cost would, and I don’t have

exact amount,

but

I know what

restoration

costs

other

systems of roughly similar

magnitude. And

so I’m estimating that in

this

case

for

——

even for Upper

Dresden

Island

Pool, which is only

eight miles long,

you’re probably talking

about

tens or

hundreds of

millions of dollars.

MR.

ETTINGER:

I thought

you were

talking

real money.

Let’s go on. I

won’t

interrupt anymore.

MR. SEEGERT:

Okay.

And then

the last

point that

I wanted

to make

was that

the

study

that

was done

MBI, for

reasons

that

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Page 24

segments

our

part of the rulemaking.

MR.

ETTINGER:

I’m sorry.

Attachment 1,

Page 5 of your

testimony,

you

do data downstream

Dresden Lock and Dam.

that part of

the

body

in the rulemaking?

MR.

SEEGERT:

No.

But

that’s

historical

data that we’re

just

summarizing.

We had already

collected all that

data,

we’re not

going

ignore it.

But all of

the

work

that we did

as part of these

proceedings

all was

concentrated.

MR.

ETTINGER:

But

you do agree that

that

data

might

be relevant

this

proceeding?

MS. FRANZETTI:

You’re talking

about

the

data

he referenced in

his report?

MR.

ETTINGER:

Exactly.

MS.

FRANZETTI: Not the Illinois

River

data?

MR. ETTINGER:

Well, this is

Illinois

River

data, isn’t it, downstream?

Dresden

Lock and Dam.

MS. FRANZETTI:

I meant the

MBI’s

data

in the

Illinois River.

Page

MR.

ETTINGER:

No.

I’m

asking

about

his——

MS.

FRANZETTI:

That’s

the

distinction

I’m trying

draw.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Actually,

my question

you

believe

that this

information

that

you

put

your

testimony

regarding

the river

relevant?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Yes.

MR. ETTINGER:

Thank

you.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Counsel,

if I

can

just

ask one

follow—up

for

clarity.

You

referred

study

down

in the

Fox

River

the

effects

of impoundment,

but

I don’t

think

you

mentioned

who

that

study

was

done

by so

that

the

record

can tell

what

study

you’re

referring

to.

Can

you be

little

specific?

MR. SEEGERT:

My recollection was

that

the

study

was sponsored

U.S.

EPA.

There

was

paper

published,

and the

author

lead

author

that

was

Vick

Santucci,

2007.

think

the work

was

2007.

The

paper

might

have

been

published

the

next year

in 2008,

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Page 28

MR.

SEEGERT:

No.

MR. ETTINGER:

Why not?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Because

walleye,

they

could

live in the

system,

but their habitat

requirements

are

such

that I don’t

think

that

there’s

enough

hard substrate

rock and

cobble

that’s going

support them either

adults,

but

particularly

for spawning

purposes, okay?

The

best

thing

I can

most

appropriate

thing

to say is there’s

not

adequate

spawning

habitat for

walleye in

the

system.

MR. ETTINGER:

you

know

anything

about

the Kankakee

River?

MR.

SEEGERT:

I know some

things

about

the

Kankakee

River

System.

MR. ETTINGER:

there

adequate

spawning habitat

for walleye

in the

Kankakee

River?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Yes.

MR. ETTINGER:

Thank

you.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Miss

Diers?

MS. DIERS:

I’m going

jump

around

just a little

Page 29

bit

for

sake

topic

and

hopefully

speed up

time

wise.

Since

we’re talking

about —-

MS.

FRANZETTI:

We’re all

yours for

this afternoon

and

tomorrow.

MS. DIERS:

We’re

talking

about

the topic

balanced

population.

you look

our

prefiled

Question

100 with

respect

to Exhibit

We ask on

Page 2 of

Exhibit

of —-

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Give

just a second

catch

up.

MS.

DIERS:

I’m sorry

to make

you

jump

around.

shows

up as

on my questions.

I don’t

know if

that

helps.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

We’re

there.

Now

I’m

just

trying

get

to Page 2 of Exhibit

Okay.

BY MS. DIERS:

Page 2

of Exhibit 2

of your

prefiled

testimony

you state

that

the present

fish

community

in the

Lower Des

Plaines

does

not

represent

a balanced

population.

you include

the

Des Plaines

River

downstream

of the

interstate

bridge

this opinion?

Page

this case

answer

directed

only

to a

portion

the Des

Plaines

River

upstream

the

1-55

bridge.

MS. FRANZETTI:

think,

Counsel,

again,

just

for

clarity.

You

just

referred

to your

answer.

Did

you

mean

refer

your

report

that

is the

subject

counsel’s

question?

MR. SEEGERT:

Yes.

BY MS.

DIERS:

Does

that

include

parts

Brandon

Pool

also?

Yes.

Prefiled

Question

101.

With

respect

balance,

what is,

and I’m

going

strike

future

and just

ask, what

is the

attainable

condition

the

fish

community

the Lower

Des

Plaines

River?

And

then

it’s also

asking

in the

Upper

Dresden

Island

Pool

and Lower

Des

Plaines

downstream

interstate

55 bridge.

MS. FRANZETTI:

Actually,

Counsel,

the

first

part

the

question

the Lower

Des

Plaines.

Would

-- Do

you

want

Wouldn’t

that

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their Latin

names.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Anything

else?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Those

are

just

a couple

off

the

top

my head.

And, of course,

all

depends

on what

your

definition

intolerant

species is.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Does

the

rosyface

shiner

operate

in both

small

streams and

large

water

bodies?

MR.

SEEGERT:

It’s not

small

-— It’s

a medium—sized

stream

fish.

It’s

definitely

not

head

water

fish. It’s

not

big river

fish.

It’s

basically kind

medium

river

fish.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Okay.

You

also, I

just

wanted

to clarify on

this.

You said

there’s

not

enough hard

surface?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Hard

substrate.

MR.

ETTINGER:

What has

to be

hard

and

how big?

MR. SEEGERT:

Okay.

thought I had

covered

that.

But

technically

speaking,

hard

substrates

include moving

up in size

from

small

to large with

sand,

gravel,

cobble,

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Page 40

geology.

that would

be a

hard

surface,

would

it?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Right.

But

should

MR.

ETTINGER:

I’m sorry.

ahead.

MR. SEEGERT:

No, it

is.

But

you

need,

when

you’re

doing

evaluation,

you asked

where

these

need

to be,

and

was

going

smartly

say in

the

water.

But

that

answer

actually

applies

here.

you

look

and

see

rocks

on the

shore

line,

they only

go a

foot

down from

the

shore,

extend

only

out a

foot,

they’re

not

going

of any

use.

it’s

a combination.

That’s

one

the

things

part

of the

QHEI,

you’re

looking

the

hard

substrates

that

are

in the

water

and how

much

the

zone,

the

area,

are

they

comprising.

MR.

ETTINGER:

But if

stood

that

rock

and

looked

down

and

saw other

rocks,

we’d

okay.

MR.

SEEGERT:

would be

okay --

Well,

first

all, the

rocks

have

not

irnbedded.

There

are

lot

of places

where

you can

have

rocks,

but there’s

much

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Page 47

that information.

Okay.

Thank

you.

Question

11,

and

this

going with

respect

Exhibit

Did

you,

essence,

attempt

redo

the

UAAs

done

for

these

waters?

I would

say

no.

We looked

-- we

certainly

looked

the

UAAs

that

had

been

already

done.

didn’t

want to

reinvent

the

wheel.

Have

you

performed

participated

other

UAAs?

Personally

I’ve done

U]\A

for Brush

Wellman

which

company

Northwest

Ohio.

also

did

one

for

the

Coeur

d’Alene

Mining

Corporation.

That

was

done

at a

site

in the

upper

peninsula

Michigan.

And

then

we did

I call

them

portions

UAA5

for

two

other

sites

in Ohio:

One

for

Chemical

and

one for

Malcolm

Pirnie,

which is

consulting

company.

And then

staff

from other

offices

have

done UAAs

variety

sites

along

the

mid—Atlantic

coastal

area,

Maryland,

Virginia,

that

neck

the

woods.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Counsel,

can

just

follow—up

and

clarifying

the

earlier

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Page 56

been talking

about

the UAA factors,

and I

sometimes

forget

that we’re

all very

familiar

with

this,

but someone

reading the

transcript

may not

be. The

UAA

factors

are the

factors

listed

40 CFR,

131.10, Subpart

MS.

DIERS:

Correct.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

And,

Counsel, I think

Mr.

Seegert’s

answer

wound

answering

some

additional

subparts

of E.

MS.

DIERS:

That’s

what I

was looking

at. Thanks.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Of 17E.

MS. DIERS:

G, you state

Page 3 of

your

prefiled

testimony

that

similarly

low flow

regulation,

which is

controlled

by U.S.

Army Corps

Engineers, in

anticipation

flooding, can

also

adversely

affect fish

by exposing

fish

nest and

eggs

to ambient air

and

causing

stranding

shallow

areas which

leads

increased

predation

on fish.

Please

provide

an example

this

phenomenon

the

CAWS or Lower

Des

Plaines River.

I’m sorry.

Are

you

Yes.

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Page 63

pools along

the

edges

the Brandon tail

water

because of

these severe rapid

fluctuations.

MS. DIERS:

So Question

22, how high

does

the

flow

need

to be

to cause these problems?

HEARING OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Excuse

me.

Just

for

the record,

21 is how high and

22 is

how

low.

MS.

DIERS:

Yes,

thank

you.

MS. FRANZETTI:

And we’re taking

how

high

first?

MS.

DIERS:

Yes.

MR. SEEGERT:

Well, I mean, again,

don’t think I

can give

you

an exact

number in

terms of

either level or flow.

That’s

not

how the

literature

frames this particular

question. And it

also has

to do

not

just

with the

absolute number,

but

how

rapid the

change is.

if there’s

a gradual

build-up

in flow

gradual

decline in flow,

you

might end

up at

the

same place. You

might

not end

up as

high

as you

would or

as low

you

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Page

magnitude higher

than

we see

this

system.

MR.

ETTINGER:

the

Kankakee

impounded?

MR. SEEGERT:

The

Kankakee

has

believe

only

one

dam,

and

there’s

definitely

dam

at Wilmington.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Yes.

MR.

SEEGERT:

thought

there

was

one

Kankakee,

but

was

looking

map

and

couldn’t

find

it.

maybe

doesn’t

maybe

memory

foggy

on that.

MR.

ETTINGER:

think

were

trying

get

rid

years

ago.

MR.

SEEGERT:

I’ve

sampled

both

above

and

below

that

dam.

It’s

relatively low,

it’s

not

high

dam.

doesn’t

impound

very

much

the

waterway.

it’s

really

not having

much

effect.

mean

there

would

be a

small

negative

effect

immediately

upstream

the

dam,

but

you

look

at how

long

the

Kankakee is

from

when

enters,

just

talking

about

the

Illinois

portion

from

when

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from

Indiana

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2008?

Well,

this

case

I should

—- and

I’ll

start

off

saying

2008

only

did Upper

Dresden

Island

Pool,

and it

turned

out

just

coincidentally

that

it was

also

70 percent,

exactly

the

same

number.

actually

had

back

because

when

I first

saw

that

and

I had

one of

guys

calculate

and said

are

you sure

this

right?

I’m

not talking

about

2003.

And it

turned

out

2008

was the

identical

number,

70 percent.

Twenty—nine:

What

extensive studies

are you

referring

Page

of your

prefiled

testimony

with respect

contaminated

sediments?

These

would

the

various

studies

that

have

been

done by

Dr.

Burton.

And

are

all

those

studies

done

Dr.

Burton,

are

they

the record

or are

they

attached

Dr. Burton’s

testimony?

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Well,

least

the

2008

the

subject

of the

data,

the

reporting

the

data,

the

EA report

that

attached

Burton’s

prefiled

testimony

and

which

then

his testimony

his

report

relies

and

draws

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be constantly resuspended

within

the channel

due to

prop wash

and

all

these

waves

sloshing

back

and

forth

are going

keep

stirring

the

sediment.

I think

the

contaminated

sediment

are

going

continuously

reexposed. So given

that,

don’t

see

that

the

quality,

that

sediment

quality,

going

improve

appreciably

in the

future.

MS.

DIERS:

And

would

that

answer

change

looked

at the

Brandon

Pool?

Pardon?

Would

the

answer

change

looked

at Brandon

Pool?

would

the same

answer.

Okay.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Would

the

answer

change

you

looked

the

Illinois

River?

MS.

FRANZETTI:

You

mean

are

there

sediments

improving in

the

Illinois

River?

MR.

ETTINGER:

there

not

ton

sediment

coming

from

agriculture

the

Illinois

River?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Well,

remember,

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Page 97

streams?

Yes.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Counsel, if

I can,

just

for

clarity,

do you consider this

large

stream?

HEARING

OFFICER TIPSORD:

Which

“this”?

MS. FRANZETTI:

Let’s

say

Upper

Dresden Island Pool.

MR.

SEEGERT:

I don’t

consider it

large river,

no.

MS. FRANZETTI:

Same answer for

the

ship canal?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Yes.

From there on

gets progressively

smaller,

so.

MS. DIERS:

Forty-six. And I

guess

first is this

question for Greg

or should

we——

MS. FRANZETTI:

I’m sorry.

I’m

not

looking down.

46?

MS.

DIERS: We’re still

talking

about

sediment.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

can respond

this.

Thank

you

for

asking.

Page

MS. DIERS:

Forty—six,

explain

your

statement

Page 5

of your

prefiled

testimony

where

you state

that

deleterious

sedimentation

the

CAWS

both

unpreventable

and

irreversible

and

will

remain

a major

impediment

biological

improvements. What

makes

unpreventable?

guess

we can

start

there.

can

break

down.

THE WITNESS:

Okay.

To answer

those

first

two

questions

-—

MS. DIERS:

Unpreventable

and

irreversible?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Right.

Well,

no,

and

yeah,

unpreventable

and

-- much

of the

sediment

comes

from

nonpoint

sources.

And we

witnessed

a good

example

of that

during

our

recent

habitat

survey.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

What

year,

Greg?

Recent?

MR.

SEEGERT:

The

2008.

attachment

for river

mile

82.5

right

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that’s

how

it’s

labeled

in Attachment 2B,

that

photograph

shows

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Page

101

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

What’s

the

river

mile?

MR.

SEEGERT:

282.5

right

bank.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Yes.

That

is, in

fact,

Page

I’m looking

it.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

We’ll

double-check.

have

a copy

right

here.

HEARING

OFFICER TIPSORD:

And it’s

labeled

construction

activities

adjacent

this

location.

MS. FRANZETTI:

Yes.

HEARING

OFFICER TIPSORD:

Thank

you.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

you

know who

was

doing

this

construction

that

you’re

describing

this picture?

MR.

SEEGERT:

I’m

sorry?

MS. WILLIAMS:

you

know who

was

doing

this

construction

in this

picture?

MR. SEEGERT:

No, I

do not.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

Did

you

call

the

EPA

when

you saw this?

MR.

SEEGERT:

No, we

did not.

MR. ETTINGER:

Are

you aware of

the

Phase 1

or Phase 2

storm

water?

Page 102

MR.

SEEGERT:

No,

I’m not.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Thank

you.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

For

clarification,

when

you were

talking

about

your

answer

the

nonpoint

source

pollution

due

the

amount

impervious area, that

was

separate

factor

that

we’re

talking

terms

the

source

the

sedimentation

sediments

entering

this waterway

from

this

factor

where

construction

activities go

because

development

in the

area of

this

waterway;

that

correct?

MR.

SEEGERT:

That’s

correct.

there’s

going

run-off

that’s

nonpoint

source.

I’m not

familiar

with

the

regulations

know

how this

regulated.

I look

this

and

say

water

coming

from

not

from

a —- not

the

way I

think

not

a point

source,

whether

regulated

or not

regulated,

whether

they

have

get a

permit

do this

not.

I’m

not familiar

with

that.

MR.

ETTINGER:

I think

can

on,

but

you’re

not

testifying

here

today

as an

Page

103

expert

the

Clean

Water

Act or

its

controls

over

any

form?

MS.

F’RANZETTI:

think

for

the

most

part

that’s

right,

Counsel,

except

that

would

say

that

from

his

work

the

UAA

factors,

that

think

could

qualify

expert

terms

of review

and

application

the

UAA

factors

this

waterway.

MR.

SEEGERT:

And

mean

I should,

since

you

brought

the

question,

there

are

parts

the

Clean

Water

Act

that

Sections

316A

and

316B

that

I would

consider

myself

expert

in.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Okay.

MS.

DIERS:

think

did

the

unpreventable,

irreversible.

I’m

not

sure

we got

where

left

off.

Where

the

deleterious

sedimentation

coming

from?

Well,

mean

believe

I’ve

answered

that.

response

would

from

various

impervious

areas,

it’s

coming

from

CSO5,

it’s

coming

from

the

kind

thing

referred

the

photographs.

it’s

kind

from

variety

sources,

all

which

Page

104

think

come

under

the

general