THE

MATTER

OF:

WATER

QUALITY

STANDARDS

AND

EFFLUENT

LIMITATIONS

FOR THE

CHICAGO

AREA

WATERWAY

SYSTEM AND

THE LOWER

DES

PLAINES

RIVER:

PROPOSED

AMENDMENTS

35 Ill.

Adm.

Code

Parts

301,

302, 303

and 304

ard

Page

ILLINOIS

POLLUTION CONTROL

BOARD

NOVEMBER

10,

2009

NOV

STATE

ILLIM

PolluUon

Control

R08—9

(Rulemaking

Water)

REPORT

PROCEEDINGS

at the hearing

the

above—entitled

cause

before

Marie

Tipsord,

Hearing

Officer,

taken before

Rebecca

Graziano,

Certified

Shorthand

Reporter within

and

for

the County

Cook

and

State

of Illinois,

the Bilandic

Building,

Room

N-502, Chicago,

Illinois,

commencing

the

hour of

1:15 on

the 10th

day

November,

A.D.,

2009.

Page

APPEARANCES

ILLINOIS

POLLUTION

CONTROL

BOARD:

Ms. Marie

Tipsord,

Hearing

Officer

Ms.

Alisa

Liu,

P.E.,

Environmental

Scientist

Mr.

Anand

Rao,

Senior

Environmental

Scientist

Mr.

Tanner

Girard,

Acting

Chairman

Mr.

Shundar

Lin

Mr.

Thomas

Johnson

Ms.

Andrea

Moore

ILLINOIS

ENVIRONMENTAL

PROTECTION

AGENCY:

Ms.

Stefanie

Diers

Ms.

Deborah

Williams

ENVIRONMENTAL

LAW AND

POLICY

CENTER,

East

Wacker

Drive

Suite

1300

Chicago,

Illinois

60601

(312)

795—3707

BY:

MR.

ALBERT

ETTINGER

MS.

JESSICA

DEXTER

Appeared

behalf

ELPC,

Prairie

Rivers

Network,

and

Sierra

Club,

FRANZETTI

LAW FIRM

P.C.

South

LaSalle

Street

Suite

3600

Chicago,

60603

(312)

251—5590

BY:

MS. SUSAN

FRANZETTI

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Page

but

I have

not

personally

been involved

those

studies.

MR. ETTINGER:

Okay.

Now,

touched

this

before,

but I

just

want

ask

the,

sort

of,

general

question.

Can lakes

meet

Clean

Water

Act

standards?

MR.

SEEGERT:

short

answer

would

yes,

they

can.

MR. ETTINGER:

Would

you

use

the

same

——

how

would

you

go about

determining

whether

lake

was

meeting

Clean Water

Act

standards?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Well, that’s

a good

question.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Thank

you.

MS.

F’RANZETTI:

Don’t

encourage

him.

MR.

SEEGERT:

The

-— and

actually,

there’s

fair

amount

research

that

arena.

The state

that

I’m most

familiar

with that’s

pursuing

that

Wisconsin.

Wisconsin

believes

that

they

-- their

goal

is to

try

to come

with

-— we’ll

just call

lake

IBI.

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you

would have

obviously

different

metrics.

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conceptually,

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Page 13

follow-up?

MR. ETTINGER:

You’re

the

boss

here.

DR.

GIRARD:

Wisconsin is trying

formalize

the

procedure

for

evaluating

lakes.

Illinois

does not

have

a formalized

procedure

this

point

time?

MR.

SEEGERT:

That’s

correct.

DR. GIRARD:

Thank

you.

MR.

ETTINGER:

What

kinds

fish

sampling

gear

does

EA use?

MR.

SEEGERT:

I’m sorry.

What

kind of

gear?

MR.

ETTINGER:

What

kind of

equipment

you

use

for

fish

sampling?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Are

we talking

about

this

series

waterways?

MR.

ETTINGER:

Yes,

I’m sorry.

Limit

—- just

tell

me what

you

have

used

to sample

this

the waterways

that

you consider

relevant

this proceeding.

MR.

SEEGERT:

Well,

Mr.

Vondruska’s

our

gear

guru.

MR.

ETTINGER:

haven’t

heard

enough

from

you.

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terms

the

size

or the

depth in

catching

-—

what

you caught,

I’d

want

know

what

method

you

used.

MR.

SEEGERT:

Yes,

that’s

correct.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Okay.

Now,

turning

Page

6 of your

testimony,

you speak

—- I’ll

just

read

the ——

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Albert,

this is

not

pre—filed

question?

So do

we need

to go

look --

MR.

ETTINGER:

I’m going

to --

it’s

not

pre—filed

question.

“Fish

species

that are

habit

generalists,

such

common

carp,

gizzard

shad,

and

channel

catfish,

well

pelagic

species,

such

emerald

shiner

and

fresh water

drum,

do quite

well

with

impounded

systems.

What

I want

ask

you

each

of those

fish

is whether

it is temperature

intolerant.

MR.

SEEGERT:

Yeah.

MR.

ETTINGER:

And I

don’t

want

to put

words

your

mouth,

how

sensitive

are

common

carp

to high

temperatures,

compared

other

fish?

MR.

SEEGERT:

They

are

not

temperature

sensitive.

Page

MR.

ETTINGER:

And

how

are

gizzard

shad.

MR.

SEEGERT:

Same

answer.

MR. ETTINGER:

Channel

catfish?

MR.

SEEGERT:

The same

answer.

MR. ETTINGER:

Channel

catfish

are not

temperature

sensitive?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Not

in the

spectrum

of,

you

know, from

trout

and one

end and

carp

the

other

end.

But

they’re

closer

the

nonserisitive

end

than

the

sensitive

end.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Well,

would

channel

catfish

be less

sensitive

than

carp

—- I’m

sorry

-— more

sensitive

than

carp?

MR. SEEGERT:

To temperature?

MR.

ETTINGER:

Yes.

MR.

SEEGERT:

They’re

just going

my recollection,

would

say

they’re

close,

but

they’re

slightly

sensitive

—— or

slightly

yeah,

slightly

sensitive

than carp.

MR.

ETTINGER:

you

wanted

look

that up,

what

would

you

look

at?

MR.

SEEGERT:

There’s

various

compilations

that

list upper

lethal

temperatures.

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Page

the

—- that some

people

have

suggested

that there

should

be a disconnect

between

Lake Michigan

and

the

Ship Canal.

I’m not

familiar with

the specific

report that

you’re

citing.

MR.

ETTINGER:

And

you

don’t know

whether

they were

serious

or not?

MR.

SEEGERT:

No, I

don’t.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Okay.

Have

you

-- on

Page 6 of

your testimony,

you state

that

you discuss

the Fox

River and,

for example,

extensive

studies

the

nearby

Fox River,

funded in

part

by U.S.

EPA,

documented

significant

and

widespread

adverse

impacts on

the

aquatic

communities

due to

the

effects

the

impounding.

And

then

see

Exhibit

Attachment

The

first

question is

easy. Is

Exhibit 2,

Attachment

3, this

paper

Victor

Santucci,

Steven

Gerhart,

and

Steven

Pescatelli?

MR. SEEGERT:

Yes,

it is.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Okay.

Page 988

that

study

-— I

supplied

copy. There’s

not

actually

988

pages in the

record,

we’ll all

be happy

hear

-— it

states

in the

bottom

of the

left

column,

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and

nitrogen loading

from

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CX)

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Page 24

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Well, my

point is

only

-- and

you just

did it again

-- when

you

beyond what

you just

read --

MR.

ETTINGER:

I’m not going

beyond

MS.

FRANZETTI:

and say other

problems

in this report.

MR.

ETTINGER:

The other

problems

discussed

the

reading that

made.

MR. SEEGERT:

We have

not specifically

looked

the

nutrient issue

in the Upper

Dresden

island

Pool

or in the

Chicago Sanitary

and Ship

Canal.

know

that there

are or can

some

fairly large

fluctuations

in the

old values that

presumably

would

be a

result

of this -—

the daily

cycle that

you’re referring

to.

MR.

ETTINGER:

When

you say

we,

you

mean EA?

MR. SEEGERT:

EA.

we have

seen

values that

—- well,

we’ve

seen

—— let me

rephrase

that.

I don’t know

if we’ve done

any

work at night,

we don’t

know what

the

values

are at night.

But we

have seen

highly elevated

levels

during the

day,

indicating

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Page 28

include

areas

where there

might

have been anchor

worm, which

is a parasite.

they don’t

consider

wound

caused

an anchor

worm

to be a

DELT anomaly.

That

goes

into the

just

general

anomalies.

It’s

not

DELT

anomaly.

Joe, do

you

have anything

add

on that?

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

No.

That’s

correct,

you have

to be

careful

looking

the lesions

make

sure it’s in

the —-

MR. ETTINGER:

Would fungal

growth

DELT

anomaly?

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

Fungal

growth,

not —-

no.

MR. ETTINGER:

Do fish have

-— do fish

get

fungal growth?

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

Sure.

Now,

getting

back

-- you

had another

question

regarding DELTs.

believe

Ohio EPA’s

manual

refers

flexi-bacteria

causing, like,

fin

erosion.

MR.

ETTINGER:

So flexi—bacteria

does

count

for

DELTs,

but not other

MR. SEEGERT:

Well,

it’s the

——

it’s

the end

result.

The

flexi—bacteria

caused

the

fin

Page

to be

eaten

away.

what you’re

measuring in

the

DELT is

fin

erosion.

Basically

that

bacteria is

literally

eating away

at that fin,

and

flexi—bacteria

are

one of

the things

that can

cause

fin erosion.

MR.

ETTINGER:

And what

causes

flexi-bacteria?

MR. SEEGERT:

understanding

MS. FRANZETTI:

you

know.

MR.

ETTINGER:

You can

always

say I

don’t know.

MS. F’RANZETTI:

Right.

MR.

SEEGERT:

Flexi—bacteria

are

the

water. I

think they’re

always there.

And

then

when fish

get

stressed,

their

immune system

gets

refused and the

flexi—bacteria

are

able

grab

hold.

Basically,

other

things are

reducing

their immune

system,

and

it’s

not

just

flexi

—— that’s

one

—— flexi—bacteria,

that’s

just

one example

they give.

Anything

that

basically

really

stresses

out,

you

know,

the fish seriously.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Okay.

Along

with

Pollution

Control

Board

hearings?

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MR.

ETTINGER:

Okay.

All

right.

Looking

now

the

document

that

was

Attachment

hope

that’s

Attachment

Detailed

Summary

Engineering

Science

and

Technology

Stream

Surveys

for

the

Upper

Illinois

Waterway,

1993

2006.

I’m

just

making

sure

read

this

right.

You’ve

got

mean

IWB

mod.

MR.

SEEGERT:

Sir,

where

are

you

reading

from?

MR.

ETTINGER:

I’m

sorry.

I’m

Page

We’ve

discussed

this

concept

somewhat

before

think.

just

want

make

sure

understand

context.

the

mean

IWB

mod,

index

what

the

fish

community

health

scores

were,

and

then

you

have

numbers

for

Lockport?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Yes.

MR.

ETTINGER:

What

the

scale

that

goes

on?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Well,

it’s

log

scale.

theory,

you

could

get

—-

don’t

know

that

there’s

any

absolute

upper

end.

mean,

you

caught

one

million

fish,

you’d

get

very

high

number.

But

practical

sense,

about

the

highest

value

I’ve

ever

seen

about

11.

Page

MR.

ETTINGER:

Now, I forget,

you

said

below

that,

5.2 and

5.3 are poor,

and

6.5,

at least,

fair,

according

to this

sheet. Where

those

ratings come

from?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Well, in

the last

full

sentence —-

well, the

sentence

immediately

above

the

scores

that

you’re

referring

says

using IWB

mod

criteria

established

by Ohio

EPA.

we’re

using

their

criteria,

came

from —— the

cutoffs

came

from Ohio

EPA.

MR. ETTINGER:

Okay.

We went over

some of

this before.

Was that

the criteria

that

they

developed

after they

decided

they couldn’t

use

the IBI stores

for

nonweightable

streams?

MR.

SEEGERT:

By they?

MR.

ETTINGER:

Meaning

Ohio EPA.

MR. SEEGERT:

Ohio

EPA?

MR.

ETTINGER:

Well, let’s

-—

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Counsel,

the

question

is the

IWB mod criteria

something

they

developed

after

they decided

MR.

ETTINGER:

Well, why don’t

just

drop

-— what’s

your

understanding

of the

development

the IWB

mod

criteria?

Page

MR.

SEEGERT:

It preceded

the IBI

that

the

IBW

—- not

the

mod version.

IWB

was

developed

around

1970

Dr. James

Gamon

during

his

work

the

Wabash

River.

And

then Ohio

EPA

Mr.

Yoder

was a

former

student

Dr.

Gamon.

So he

learned

from

Dr.

Gamon.

When

Mr.

Yoder

went to

Ohio

EPA,

thought

this

would be

an appropriate

thing

use

my Agency,

and

they started

using

it in

its

unmodified

form,

and

then

some point

they

decided

was

-— it

should

be modified,

which

they did,

and

then

also

around

that same

time

was when

the

IBI was

coming

out.

now,

most water

bodies,

Ohio

EPA uses

both

of those

indexes

——

for

fish

determine

detainment. They

use both

IWB mod

and

the

IBI.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Does EA

use

lB --

whatever

is?

MS.

FRANZETTI:

MR. ETTINGER:

mod.

Does

use

it?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Use

as compared

the

IWB?

Or,

I mean,

what

MR.

ETTINGER:

you

use either

Page

them?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Yes,

yes.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Okay.

Do you

think

they’re

sound

methodology

for

assessing

the

health

in the

aquatic

community?

MS.

FRANZETTI:

And

Albert,

both

IBI

and

IWB

mod, or

IWB

and

IWB

mod?

MR.

ETTINGER:

Why

don’t

you

MS.

FRANZETTI:

What’s

included

the

question?

MR.

ETTINGER:

Everything

she

said.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

got

shut

up.

MR. SEEGERT:

We generally

not

use

——

guess

the

word

is ——

rely

the IWB.

Because

in its

original

form,

did

give

too

much

credit

for

highly

tolerant

fish.

generally

don’t

use

that.

use

the IWB

mod,

which

consists

of taking

——

I think

it’s 13

species

of highly

tolerant

fish --

and excluding

them

for

most

of the

IWB calculations.

that’s

what

the modification

is.

just takes

out

highly

tolerant

fish.

use

that

regularly

the

Ohio

River

and

number

other

places.

think

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segments.

MR.

ETTINGER:

What exhibit

are we

now?

MS.

TIPSORD:

367.

MR.

ETTINGER:

I’ll

show

you

MS.

TIPSORD:

Because

Susan

hasn’t

been

keeping

with

Fred.

MS. FRANZETTI:

I’m

slacker.

MR.

ETTINGER:

367.

MS.

TIPSORD:

No,

this

will

be 368.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Oh,

368.

I’m

sorry.

MS. TIPSORD:

I’ve been

handed

Project

61393.26,

Development

of Biologically

Based

Thermal

Limits

for

the

Lower

Des

Plaines

River,

prepared

for Midwest

Generation,

Chicago,

Illinois,

Prepared

Engineering

Science

and

Technology.

August

2007

the date.

MS. FRANZETTI:

And

Counsel,

I’ll

note

right

off

the

bat,

will

object

any questioning

that

deals

with

thermal

standards

limits

at this

time.

MR. ETTINGER:

I couldn’t

agree

more.

fact,

I don’t

like documents

about

that

nearly

much as

I like

other

parts

the

document.

Page

MS.

TIPSORD:

Well, let me

finish.

there’s no objection,

we will

admit

this

Exhibit

368.

MS. FRANZETTI:

objection

its

admittance,

just

objection

as to

the

scope

the

questioning

at this time.

MS.

TIPSORD:

And I will

entertain

those if they

should

arise. With

that, I’ll

mark

Exhibit

368.

MR. ETTINGER:

Okay.

I’d like

now

look

-— I

guess

it is

Figure 1 --

which

is ——

it’s

after

Page

16 ——

and

ask

you

——

well,

first

of all,

did EA

this?

MR. SEEGERT:

Yes.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Who specifically

did

that work

for

EA?

MR. SEEGERT:

believe

this was

mainly

combination

myself

and Mr. Vondruska.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Okay.

Now,

these

-- if

just

look at the

upstream 1-55

bridge

numbers

here,

does the

-- I’m not

quite sure

how

read

these.

These aren’t

river

miles?

Or what

are

the

units

the bottom

here

from 402

408?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Those

are

location

Page

numbers

that

he established.

MR.

ETTINGER:

And

how do

they

correspond

to river

miles?

there

some

way

determine

that?

MR.

SEEGERT:

There’s

direct

correlation,

no.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Does

correlate

something

that

goes

with

your

QHEI data

collection?

MR. VONDRUSKA:

Well,

the

sampling

location

listed

the

bottom.

have --

for

every

annual

report,

have

list

of sampling

locations

which

provide

the river

miles

and

how the

location

was

sampled.

MR.

ETTINGER:

All right.

So we’d

have

to figure

that

out.

We’ve

got

some

other

document

that

shows

the

sampling

locations.

Perhaps

they’re

the record,

perhaps

not.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

I don’t

know that

have

it in this

proceeding

that

would exist

within

EA’s

records.

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

Well,

sure.

Part

96—10,

the sample

location

designations

are

the

same.

Page 39

MR. ETTINGER:

Would it help

-- but

am reading

this probably, that this 402 number is

the most upstream sampling

location, and the 408 is

the most

downstream sampling location within that

Pool?

MR. VONDRUSKA:

Within upstream 1-55

segments?

MR. ETTINGER:

Yes.

MR. VONDRUSKA:

Correct.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Okay.

And

figure

out

exactly

where that was, we’d have

to go

and

look

your sampling location information --

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

Yes.

MR. ETTINGER:

-- so

we can find

that?

MR. VONDRUSKA:

Yes.

MR.

ETTINGER: And

you

believe it’s

from

a document that’s already in the record?

MS. FRANZETTI:

No, no.

Actually,

think not.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Okay.

MS. WILLIAMS:

What

about

one of

the

attachments

—- I want

to say

maybe M.

MS. FRANZETTI:

I think this

goes --

MS. WILLIAMS:

MM would be one of EA’s

Page 40

annual

reports of

Midwest Generation’s

annual

reports.

Would

contained

within

—-

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

I don’t have

glasses

today.

I’m sorry.

MS.

TIPSORD:

Yeah.

Attachment

the

proposal

is 2004 Lower

Des

Plaines River

Fisheries

Investigation,

River

Mile

274.4 through

285.5

EA Engineering,

cetera.

And

you

had mentioned

before

they’re

the annual

report,

can

look

that

document

and

correlate where

these

are located.

MR. VONDRUSKA:

Yes.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Do any of

our --

are

any

your

sample

locations in

the

discharge

canal

from

the

Joliet

plant?

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

Yes,

location

403.

MR.

ETTINGER:

403 is

actually

inside

the discharge

canal,

or --

MR. VONDRUSKA:

Yes.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Okay.

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

Actually,

specifically

there’s 250

meters

within

the Joliet 9

discharge

canal,

and 250

meters within

the Joliet

discharge

canal until

you have

about

500-meter

zone.

Page

MR.

ETTINGER:

you

measure

the

end

the

canal

top

the

canal?

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

Measure

what?

MR.

ETTINGER:

Whatever

you’re

measuring.

your

location

the

end

the

canal

or up

the

discharge

point?

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

starts

the

upstream

end.

For

example,

the

location,

specifically

Joliet

Station

29,

Units

and

discharge

canal,

start

upstream in

it,

and we

end

above

the

discharge

for

the

cooling

towers.

Joliet

—- okay.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Okay.

I’m

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

You

were

asking

where

sample

this.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Yeah.

I’m

just

trying

figure

out

where

the

samplers

relation

the

actual

discharge

point.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Well,

what

are

you

defining

the

actual

discharge

point?

MR.

ETTINGER:

The

place

where

the

water

comes

out.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Where

meets

the

river?

Page

MR. ETTINGER:

Yes.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Where

the

end

the

canal

meets

the

river?

MR.

ETTINGER:

That’s

what I’m

asking.

Are

you

measuring

where

the

end of

the

canal

meets

the

river,

or at

some

other site?

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

Well,

I guess

I’m

little

bit

confused.

MS.

TIPSORD:

I am,

too,

because

your

question

was

do you

measure

in the

canal.

Now

you’ve

changed

the

question.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Well,

maybe

I have.

Just

where

do you

measure

with

regard

-- is

this

the

hottest

point

the

cooler?

Where

gotten?

MR. VONDRUSKA:

What

measuring

here?

MR.

ETTINGER:

Yeah,

exactly.

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

Specify

that.

MS. TIPSORD:

Let me

try it,

Albert.

You

just

identified

403

Exhibit

368

whatever

page

that

number

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Figure

MS. TIPSORD:

—-

Figure

—‘

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I—i

1—’

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(fl

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—

Page

for electrofishing,

and

those

get combined

into

500-meter sample.

MR.

ETTINGER:

am I

understand

then that

the

—- there’s

enough

a fish community

that’s

actually

the

discharge

canal that

scores

a 5.5 here?

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

can’t tell

what

scored,

but

yes,

there is

enough in

the fish

community.

MR.

SEEGERT:

About

that,

yes.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Okay.

And

then

what’s

403A?

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

403A

represents

sample

downstream

the

discharge

canal.

MR.

ETTINGER:

I’d like

to turn

above

-- we’re

going

to be very careful

as to

the

portions we

read here

to avoid

the

objections.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Thank

you.

MR.

ETTINGER:

On Page 7,

states,

“Below

Farenheit

and

above 85

Farenheit

MR.

SEEGERT:

I’m

sorry.

Where

are

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Albert,

I’m

sorry.

But

there’s

lot

of Page

7. Can

you get

us to —-

MR.

ETTINGER:

Well,

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this

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that

you

want

to use

work

a .01 level.

And

that’s what

we did.

When

you get down

to 90,

then it

goes

below .01.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Well,

we’re all

fortunate

that

statistician

is not

here

today,

so I

won’t

able

ask him any

questions,

and

I’ll

just

have

go on. Thank

you.

MR.

ANDES:

How long

are we going

for?

MR.

ETTINGER:

Oh, I

don’t know.

Half

an hour

maybe.

You can leave.

MR. ANDES:

No,

can’t.

MR.

OTTO:

Are

you

going

use

any

your pre—filed

questions?

MR.

ETTINGER:

I will eventually.

I’ve

used

a lot of them.

I’d

look

at —— these are

very

pretty.

MR.

SEEGERT:

I agree.

I like

them.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

For

the

record?

MS.

TIPSORD:

For the

record?

MR.

ETTINGER:

For

the record

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scores.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Yes.

Figure

F—2

the

narrative

habitat

classification

based

MBI

modified

QEIEI

scores.

MR.

SEEGERT:

Correct.

those

are

the

scores

based

what

Mr. Yoder

testified

were

-- was

the

more appropriate,

because

they

took

into account

the impounding

the

river.

would

take

this

the

accurate

representation.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Okay.

Now, where

does

the

impounding

stop

in this

chart?

MR.

SEEGERT:

At -- basically

where

the

green

ends.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Okay.

don’t

have

make

—- we

don’t have

make an

adjustment

that

portion

the pool

under

the

modified

MR.

SEEGERT:

It’s

good

under

both

cases,

because

it’s

not modified.

the

adjustment

for

modification

doesn’t

come into

play

all.

MR.

ETTINGER:

there’s

MR.

SEEGERT:

I’m

sorry.

Well,

I’m

talking

about

modified

as referred

to --

MBI

modified

their

technique

based

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Page

sandwiched

in between

the

Clean

Air

Act rules

January

13th

and 14th,

which

time we

will

talk

Dr.

Burton.

we can

get

done on

the

13th,

wonderful.

If not,

will

hearing

officer

order

that

resets

the

room and

reiterates that it’s

Dr.

Burton.

Thank

you

again

tore your

patients,

your

time,

and

everybody

have

safe

trip

home.

Page

STATE

ILLINOIS

COUNTY

COOK

REBECCA

GRAZIANO,

being

first

duly

sworn

on oath

says

that

she

court

reporter

doing

business

the

City

of Chicago;

that

she

reported

shorthand

the

proceedings

given

the

taking

said

hearing

and

that

the

foregoing

true

and

correct

transcript

her

shorthand

notes

taken

aforesaid

and

contains

all

the

proceedings

given

said

hearing.

REBECCA

GR(’NO,

CSR

South

LaSalle

Street,

Suite

850

Chicago,

Illinois

60603

License

No.

084—004659

SUBSCRIBED AND

SWORN

before

this

/9*day

A.D.,

2009.

NOVEMBER

30,

2011

Page

55:6

algal23:10

anything

15:13

7:10,15

able4:21

add28:630:8

Alisa2:4

11:2,10,10

assume5:19

8:15

6:20

27:16

additive

Affiance

28:6

29:21

assuming

Barghusen

29:16

47:8

30:16

21:20

49:1

35:2

55:21

49:13 53:12

adjusted

allow

5:5

anywhere

assumption

based 6:24

abnormalit...

54:17

almost50:3

5:12

54:13

35:23 36:13

25:11,12,22

adjustment

Along

29:23

Appeared

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49:20 51:3

25:23

26:21

51:16,19

already

2:15,20

22:16,17

51:6,24

26:24

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39:17

appears

31:3,3

52:1,16

about 3:16

admit

3:5

always

11:5

45:16

35:18

40:5

basically

9:1011:9

37:2

11:1929:10

applied

48:8,10

11:2416:11

13:15

14:11

admittance

29:14

17:16,17

56:10

27:21

29:2

15:8

20:9

37:5

AMENDM...

applies

26:8

attachments

29:18,21

26:9,21

adverse

1:5

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39:22

45:8

46:14

27:21 30:2

22:12

ammonia

appropriate

attack

30:6

48:21

50:21

30:23 31:23

adversely

30:10

8:8

17:20

attain49:9

51:13

31:24

36:23

3:18

among23:5

33:851:7

attainment

bass3:24

39:2140:24

affect3:18

amount9:17

aquatic4:17

7:58:9

bat36:19

44:10 45:11

5:8,13

amplify

4:18,20,23

12:22

bed23:2

46:349:3

53:18

54:4

27:16

5:9,14,17

attracted

beforel:9,10

50:5,16

aforesaid

analysis

6:1,2,6

10:9

53:7

9:4

11:9

51:2352:11

58:11

35:11,12

11:21,22

attracting

31:1232:12

above6:10

after32:13

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22:1334:5

53:4

40:958:19

6:16 32:6

32:21

37:12

anchor 28:1

48:24,24

audience

begins 45:4

41:1144:16

again6:17,23

28:3

aquatics6:3

55:9

behalf

2:15

44:20

45:15

7:4 9:22

ANDES

area 1:4

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2:20

49:152:7

20:823:24

47:10,14

12:2127:21

availability

being3:15

above-entit...

24:2

35:2

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2:6

49:3,5,12

56:24

43:1,12

1:9

43:2346:17

annual38:12

49:14,24

available

46:1952:1

absent4:12

56:14

57:7

40:1,1,10

52:1,2,9,10

35:3

54:12

58:5

absolute

agencies

anomalies

52:12

avoid

44:17

believe

3:7

31:21

11:11

26:9,10

areas28:1

aware6:9,19

8:714:8

abundant

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28:4

55:17,22

8:2321:12

28:1937:17

23:11

33:9

anomaly28:3

arena9:17

21:19,24

39:1648:9

according

agos:4 8:20

28:5,12

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away29:1,3

53:20

55:22

32:3

agree

8:14

another

around

8:5

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1:14

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9:20

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36:22

47:21

26:11 28:18

11:16

26:18

58:20

below4:23

accurate5l:9

48:23

55:23

33:3,12

6:11,16

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agricultural

answer

9:7

asked 11:9

8:15,20

48:2456:23

23:3

19:3,5

25:19

B3320,21

14:1615:11

57:1

ahead54:21

25:2026:7

asking4l:14

back25:9

23:432:2

Acting2:5

54:22

26:827:3

42:448:21

26:18

28:18

44:2045:15

actual4l:18

Afr56:23

52:20

53:21

55:9

bacteria29:2

47:549:8

41:20 49:17

57:1

54:1

aspirin30:21

bacterial

52:8,18

49:20

Albert

2:13

answering

assemblage

26:3

bend

50:12

actually

9:16

3:8

18:8

46:7

12:7

bad

35:6

better

35:4,8

12:19

22:22

21:13

34:6

antagonistic

assessing

bar7:19

between22:2

39:1840:17

42:2044:22

30:17

34:4

bare27:22

30:1446:16

40:21

44:5

50:23

anyonel5:12

assignlo:5

barge6:9,10

49:453:23

algae23:11

30:12,17

associated

615,207:1

57:1

Page

beyond24:3

business58:7

19:6,13

36:15 58:7

7:922:13

contrary

24:4

46:21

caught

16:21

58:16

26:23

55:21

bias

17:11,24

17:5

18:2

circle26:18

community

Controll:1

big

15:6

C2:1

31:22

circumstan...

7:3,11

8:11

2:2 29:24

50:1254:12

calculated

causel:9

17:2149:5

10:411:17

Cookl:11

55:24

35:19

55:1

14:23 25:21

54:23

31:14 34:5

58:2

biggerl5:1,1

5512

25:23 27:14

citing22:4

35:943:20

cool2O:12

Bilandic

1:12

calculations

29:4

30:5

City 58:7

44:4,9

54:16

biological

3421

45:10

clarify 20:8

compare

cooler 42:14

15:15

52:14

calibrated

caused25:13

classification

4:17

12:19

54:22

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35:3

25:21 28:3

51:3

compared

cooling

5:24

36:13

call7:89:22

28:24

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8:12 18:22

41:11

biologist

10:9

12:8 16:24

causes

25:10

48:24

56:23

33:22

45:19

copied3:1

10:15

12:14

35:246:20

27:4,6,10

57:1

52:22

copy3:2

46:8

called8:4

27:1229:6

closel9:9,18

comparison

22:21

biostatistic...

11:13,23

30:15 54:8

43:8,9,13

4:21

5:6

correct

13:7

46:20,24

2624

causing

closed2l:22

48:18

15:23

16:22

bit26:735:7

came32:9,9

23:22

28:20 closely30:18

comparisons

18:428:8

42:8

35:22

CAWS21:11

closerl9:10

45:2447:2

39:948:11

black26:13

canal

22:3

center

2:11

Club

2:15

compilations

51:5

58:10

blackchin

2412

40:14

3:9

49:14

Code

1:6

19:24

correlate

12:8

40:18,23,24

50:1

cold2O:10

complete3:2

38:740:11

blacknose

41:2,2,5,10

certain

8:2

collect

15:23

concentrati...

correlation

12:8

42:3,5,10

certainly

16:2

25:3

38:6

bluegifi

3:24

43:1,2,6,8

8:10 20:1

collected

concept

correspond

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4313,24

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35:20

10:1231:11

38:3

2:2

29:24

44:5,14

1:10

collection

conceptually

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20:8

cancerous

cetera

40:8

38:9

9:24

23:18 32:19

boat

11:15

26:1

Chairman

collections

conditions

36:18

boats

50:6

candidate

2:5

17:11

52:14

23:13,15

count28:22

bodies

8:2

1118

challenge

color

49:11

55:18

County

1:11

33:14

careful28:9

30:9

column22:24

conducted

11:13

58:2

boss 13:2

44:16

chance

46:10

combination

14:2

couple

56:18

both33:15

carpl8:12

46:12,15,16

23:737:18

confused

coursel2:2

33:16 34:6

18:22 19:9

changed

combined

42:8

43:20

court58:6

51:18 56:8

19:13,14,20

42:11

23:21 44:1

conjunction

created

23:9

bottom

22:23

2020,23

changes

3:18 come

9:21

52:14

credit

34:16

37:23 38:11

casel0:1,13

50:10

32:4

51:20

consider

Creek55:1,2

Brandon4:7

10:15 11:4

channel4:3

comesl6:14

13:1928:2

55:2,14,14

35:11

52:8

11:16

17:6

18:13

19:4

26:17

41:22

considered

criteria32:8

52:21

35:15

46:18

19:6,12

coining33:13

17:16

32:9,12,20

bridge6:10

47:1

49:15,17,19

conunencing

consisted

32:24

37:20

cases5l:19

49:20,22

1:13

14:12

cross

15:9

broad45:10

catch

14:16

50:10,10

commission

consists

14:7

49:14

broke48:18

catching

18:1

chart5l:12

7:20

34:18

CSR58:15

48:19,20