Page 1

IN THE

MATTER

OF:

WATER

QUALITY STANDARDS

AND

EFFLUENT LIMITATIONS

FOR THE

CHICAGO

AREA

WATERWAY

SYSTEM

AND LOWER DES

PLAINES RIVER

PROPOSED

AMENDMENTS

TO 35

ILL. ADM. CODE

301, 302, 303,

and

304

ILLINOIS

POLLUTION

CONTROL

BOARD

October

5,

2009

EEVEC

CLEFcS

OFFICE

OCT52OO9

STATE

OF

ILLINOI

RO

8

- Pollution

Control

Boa

(Rulemaking

-

Water)

d

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS

at

the hearing

of the

above-entitled

cause

before

Hearing Officer

Marie

Tipsord,

taken before

Rebecca

A. Graziano,

Certified

Shorthand

Reporter

within

and for

the County of

Cook

and State

of Illinois,

at

the

Michael A.

Bilandic

Building,

Room N-SOS,

Chicago,

Illinois,

commencing

at

the hour

of

10:00

a.m. on the 5th

day

of

October,

A.D.,

2009.

---

Page 2

1

APPEARANCES

2

THE

ILLINOIS POLLUTION

CONTROL

BOARD,

3

Ms.

Marie

Tipsord,

Hearing

Officer

4

Mr. Anand

Rao, Senior

Environmental

Scientist

Ms.

Alisa

Liu,

Environmental

Scientist

Mr. G. Tanner

Girard,

Acting

Chairman

Ms. Andrea

Moore, Member

6

Mr.

Thomas

Johnson, Member

Dr.

Shundar

Lin,

Member

7

8

ILLINOIS

ENVIRONMENTAL

PROTECTION

AGENCY

1021

North

Grand

Avenue

East

9

Post

Office

Box 19276

Springfield,

Illinois

62794

10

BY:

MS.

STEFANIE

DIERS

MS. DEBORAH

WILLIAMS

11

12

BARNES

AND

THORNBURG

LLP

1 North

Wacker Drive

13

Suite

4400

Chicago,

IL

60606

14

(312)

357-1313

BY:

MR. FREDRIC

ANDES

15

Appeared

on

behalf of

the Metropolitan

Water

16

Reclamation

District

of Greater

Chicago,

17

FRANZETTI

LAW

FIRM P.C.

18

10 South LaSalle

Street

Suite 3600

19

Chicago,

IL

60603

(312) 251-5590

20

BY:

MS.

SUSAN FRANZETTI

21

Appeared on

behalf

of Midwest

Generation,

L.L.C.

22

23

24

---

Page

3

1

MS.

TIPSORD:

Good

morning.

My

name

2

is

Marie

Tipsord,

and

I’ve been

appointed

by

the

3

Board

to

serve

as

hearing

officer

in

this

proceeding

4

entitled

Water

Quality

Standards

and

Effluent

5

Limitations

for the

Chicago

Area

Waterway

System

and

6

Lower

Des

Plaines

River,

Proposed

Amendments

to

35

7

Ill.

Admin

Code

301,

302,

303

and

304.

The

docket

8

number

is

R08-9.

9

With

me

today

to

my

immediate

left

10

is

presiding

Board

member,

acting

chairman,

11

G.

Tanner

Girard.

To

his

left,

Board

member

Andrea

12

Moore,

and to

her

left,

Board

member

Shundar

Lin.

13

To

my far

right

is Board

member

Thomas

Johnson.

To

14

my

immediate

right

is

Anand

Rao,

and

to

his

right,

15

Alisa

Liu

from our

technical

union.

Also today,

16

Claire

Frederick,

one

of our

externs

this

semester

17

from

Kent,

is

with

us.

18

This

is

day

33, and

we are

19

continuing to

hear

testimony

from members

of the

20

public.

And today

the

purpose

of the

hearing

is

to

21

hear

the

testimony

of

Victor

Crivello

and Laura

22

Barghusen.

Is

that correct?

23

MS. BARGHUSEN:

Barghusen.

24

MS. TIPSORD:

Barghusen

and

Gerald

---

Page

4

1

Adelmann,

who

will appear

as

a

panel,

and

the

2

testimony

will

be

marked

as

an

exhibit

entered

as

if

3

read.

After

marking

the

pre-filed

testimony

as

an

4

exhibit,

we

will

then

proceed

to

questions

for

the

5

testifier,

and

well

start

with

the

District

and go

6

to

the

IEPA

with

Mr. Crivello.

7

Anyone

may

ask a

follow-up

8

question.

You

need

not

wait

until

your

turn

to

ask

9

questions.

I

do

ask

that

you

raise

your

hand,

wait

10

for

me

to

acknowledge

you.

After

I

have

11

acknowledged

you,

please

state

your

name

and

whom

12

you

represent

before

you

begin

your

questions.

13

Please

speak

one

at

a

time.

If

14

youTre

speaking

over each

other,

the

court

reporter

15

will

not

be

able

to

get

your

questions

on

the

16

record.

Please

note

any

questions

asked

by

a

Board

17

member

or

staff

are

intended

to

build

a

complete

18

record

for

the

Board’s

decision

and

not

express

any

19

preconceived

notion

or

bias.

20

With

that,

Mr.

Harley,

if

you

T

d

21

like

to

introduce

your

witness.

22

MR.

HARLEY:

My

witness

is

Mr.

Victor

23

Crivello.

24

MS.

TIPSORD:

And

could

we

have

him

---

Page 5

1

sworn

in,

please?

2

(Witness

sworn.)

3

MS.

TIPSORD:

And with

that, we’ll

4

mark his

testimony.

If there’s no

objection,

we

5

will

mark

the pre-filed

testimony

of

Victor

Crivello

6

as

Exhibit

333.

Seeing none,

it’s

Exhibit

333. And

7

with

that,

Mr.

Andes.

8

MR.

ANDES:

Good

morning.

9

.

CRIVEThLO:

Good

morning.

10

MR. ANDES:

Let’s start

with

question

11

number

one.

You’ve indicated

your

testimony

that

12

you

recreate

in the Calumet

River

System three

or

13

more weekends

a

month. Have

you

gotten

sick

from

14

recreating

in

these waters?

15

MR.

CRIVELLO:

There was

one

year

16

about

ten years

ago

that I

was in

Lake Michigan

-- I

17

mean the waters

there of

Calumet,

and I

got an

18

infection

in

my knee

that

developed

into a

blood

19

infection.

So

I had been

in the

water

and I

had

cut

20

my knee as

I

got

out

of

the water

climbing

back into

21

the boat.

Now, I never

said

that I was --

for

sure

22

knew that

that came

from that

exposure,

but it was

23

an exposure

that I did experience.

24

MR. ANDES:

In what

area were

you

--

---

Page

6

1

MR.

CRIVELLO:

In the

harbor

where my

2

boat

is kept

in

Dolton

at

Marine

Services.

3

MR.

ANDES:

So

that’s

on

which

segment

4

of the system?

5

MR. CRIVELLO:

It’s

on

the

Lower

Cal,

6

west

of

Highway 94.

7

MR.

ANDES:

You’ve

observed

a

great

8

deal of

recreation

in the

Calumet

area. Have

you

9

ever heard

of

a

documented

disease

outbreak

10

resulting

from the

recreation?

11

MR.

CRIVELLO:

No.

12

MR.

ANDES:

On Page

2, Paragraph

1,

13

you

state

there’s always

been a

large

boating

14

community

on

the

Calumet

waterways.

Can

you explain

15

what

you

mean

by

large

boating

community?

16

MR.

HARLEY:

Madam Hearing

Officer,

at

17

this

point

we’ve

prepared

an exhibit

that we

believe

18

will

be

helpful.

19

MS.

TIPSORD:

Okay.

20

MR.

ANDES:

It’s

a

picture

of

the

21

boating

community?

22

MR.

HARLEY: And

another

exhibit

as

23

well.

24

MS. TIPSORD:

The first

exhibit I

was

---

Page 7

1

handed

is

a map,

which appears

to be

identifying

2

boat launches

and marinas

along

a

segment -- what

3

exactly

is

that, Mr.

Crivello?

A segment

of --

4

MR. CRIVELLO:

Of the Lower

Calumet

5

River.

6

MS.

TIPSORD:

Okay.

7

MR. CRIVELLO:

And

it’s the

-- by

8

O’Brien

Locks.

9

MS

TIPSORD:

All right.

If

there

T

s

no

10

objection, we

will

mark

that

as

Exhibit 331.

Seeing

11

none,

it’s Exhibit

331.

12

MR.

HARLEY:

Madam Hearing

Officer,

13

perhaps

it

would

be

helpful

if I

ask some

clarifying

14

questions

of

my witness

to

help

us

further

identify

15

the

exhibits.

16

MS.

TIPSORD:

And that’s

cool,

but

17

we’re

going

to

mark

them first so

that we

know

which

18

exhibit

you’re talking

about

when you’re

asking the

19

clarifying

questions.

20

MR. ANDES:

This

will all

go

back

to

21

my

question

about

what

a

large

boating

community

is?

22

MR. HARLEY:

Yes.

23

MS.

TIPSORD:

And

the

second

one

has

24

the

cover page,

“Facilities,”

and

lists

the

---

Page 8

1

facilities

and descriptions, and we

will mark that

2

as

Exhibit 332, if there’s no objection.

Seeing

3

none,

it’s Exhibit 332. Okay. Go

ahead,

4

Mr.

Harley.

5

MS.

FRANZETTI:

I’m sorry.

But Madam

6

Hearing Officer,

what exhibit was his

testimony?

7

may

have misheard

you.

8

MS. TIPSORD:

330.

9

MS.

FRANZETTI:

330.

Okay.

We heard

10

333.

Okay.

Sorry.

11

MR. ANDES:

So

did I.

12

MS. TIPSORD:

Oh,

sorry.

It’s 330.

13

Too many 3s.

Sorry.

14

MS. FRANZETTI:

If we got

off number,

15

I wanted

to

alert you.

Thank

you.

16

MR.

HARLEY:

Mr. Crivello, what

I

17

would like you to do

would

be to just

have

you

18

identify the segments of the Calumet

River System,

19

which are displayed

on

this

map, starting near the

20

flag on

the upper right hand number four.

Can

you

21

describe what section of the Calumet

River

System

22

extends in from the far right-hand-side?

23

MR.

CRIVELLO:

Sure.

If

you see

24

number four,

that’s

close

to

the mouth of the

---

Page 9

1

Calumet River that runs six miles down river to

2

O’Brien Locks and Dam. That includes

Lake Calumet,

3

a

waterway,

as

well

as

the Calumet

River.

4

MR. HARLEY:

And then as

we move west,

5

starting around the number two

banner on this

6

exhibit, what

waterway are we then entering into?

7

MR. CRIVELLO:

Well, that is the

8

Little Calumet River right there, and

number two is

9

where my

boat

is currently kept in

the summer time

10

for the last six or -- six years.

11

MR. HARLEY:

And then

as

we --

12

MR. CRIVELLO:

I’ve had

a

motor

boat

13

for six years and then a sailboat at

that marina

14

since

1984.

So

I’ve been continually

at

that marina

15

since 1984.

16

MR. HARLEY:

And

then

as

we continue

17

west

and we

see

these additional numbers arrayed,

18

six, seven, three, eight, ten, nine, five, what is

19

the waterway as we continue

to go

west?

20

MR. CRIVELLO:

That continues

to be

21

the Little Calumet River through number five.

22

MR. HARLEY: And after that point?

23

MR. CRIVELLO: After that point

I’m

24

not sure exactly,

but

I

believe it’s

the

---

Page

10

1

Little

--

the Calumet

-- the

Cal Sag

Channel

starts

2

there,

and then

the Calumet

Channel

runs

west all

3

the way

out

to

the

Illinois

Michigan

Canal.

And

4

that,

of course,

runs

north

to

downtown

Chicago

and

5

out

Lake

Michigan.

6

MR.

HARLEY:

And on

this

exhibit,

7

which

is Exhibit

332,

there

is

a

list

of 12

specific

8

boating

facilities,

starting

with

the

Alsip

Boat

9

Launch

through

number

12, the

Worth

Boat launch.

10

Have

you

had any

-- an

opportunity

to review

that

11

list

of boating

facilities?

12

MR.

CRIVELLO:

Yes, I

have.

13

MR.

HARLEY:

And to

your knowledge,

14

does

this

map

accurately

depict

the

location

of

15

these

boating

facilities?

16

MR.

CRIVELLO:

Yes,

it

does.

Yes,

it

17

accurately

-- for

this

purpose.

18

MR.

HARLEY:

And

so

in

terms

of

19

understanding

what

this

exhibit

is,

if

we

look

at

20

number

four,

the

banner

in

the

upper

right-hand

21

corner,

that

would

be

Crowley’s

Yacht

Yard?

22

MR. CRIVELLO:

Correct.

23

MR. HARLEY:

And going

to

the west,

24

the

furthest

facility

we

have

to

the

west

is

number

---

Page 11

1

12,

and that would

be

the Worth Boat Launch.

Is

2

that correct?

3

MR. CRIVELLO: Yes, that’s

correct.

4

MR. HARLEY:

Okay.

I

wanted

to

call

5

your attention to Exhibit

332, where we’ve provided

6

a

description

of each of these facilities, starting

7

with the Alsip Boat Launch on Page 1, the

Beaubien

8

Woods facility on Page 2, on down through

the Worth

9

Boat Launch on Page 21. Are

you

personally

familiar

10

with each of these facilities?

11

MR. CRIVELLO: Well,

yes.

I’m firstly

12

familiar -- I’ve gone

by

them or I’ve stopped at

13

them and

bought gasoline

or

had lunch

at

their

14

restaurant along the way.

15

MR. HARLEY:

And mindful of

the fact

16

that

we

are responding to the

question

about

what

a

17

large

boating community is, I would like

to

take

18

this packet and

just

ask

you to

describe some of the

19

boating facilities that you’re

familiar with along

20

the Calumet River System, and I’d like

to

start with

21

the facility which is described on Page 1 of our

22

packet.

23

MR.

CRIVELLO:

Okay.

24

MR. HARLEY:

And you’ll

notice that

---

Page

12

1

the numbers are

in the center, and could you

2

please -- are you

familiar with the

Alsip Boat

3

Launch, which is --

4

MR. CRIVELLO:

Yes.

5

MR. HARLEY:

And

could

you

describe

6

what the Alsip Boat

Launch is?

7

MR.

CRIVELLO: Well, it’s a

Riverside

8

marina that basically

acts as

winter

storage and

9

river

access to

daily

access.

If you

want to go in

10

the

water

you

can

put

your boat

in there. And yes,

11

then there’s a

small marina there where

they

-- as

I

12

say,

where they

put

the

boats

and stuff.

13

MR. ANDES: T

We

re

talking mainly about

14

powerboats,

sailboats, canoes, kayaks?

15

MR. CRIVELLO:

Well,

these are -- for

16

storage, it’s sailboats and motorboats.

For

17

recreation, it’s

primarily motorboats. And

there

18

are

other marinas where I’ve seen canoes

and kayaks,

19

but

I’m not -- not this particular

one.

20

MR.

ANDES:

Thank

you.

21

MR. HARLEY: And then

just

to

the

west

22

of the Alsip Boat Launch, the banner 12,

is listed

23

as

the Worth Boat Launch, which is

actually the last

24

page of our packet, Page 21.

---

Page 13

1

MR. CRIVELLO:

Right.

2

MR. HARLEY: Are

you

familiar with the

3

Worth Boat Launch?

4

MR. CRIVELLO: Yes,

I am. It

1s

a

5

municipally run

public

access

point

to

the Calumet

6

River.

It is the prime -- I would have

to

say

7

thatTs

the primary

access

point for small boat

8

fishermen. And I did

see

no

kayaks or canoes,

but

I

9

have seen ski-doos or jet skis

there. And it

10

is -- for example, on a

weekend when they have a

11

boat

-- rather

a bass

contest, there will be

over

12

1,200

bass boats

that come in at

that point, in my

13

experience.

14

MR. HARLEY: Mr. Crivello,

I

just want

15

to

ask

you

about a couple

other of the locations

16

along the

river.

I

wanted

to

ask

you about

the

17

facility

which is described

as

Fays Point, which is

18

flag five along the river, and which is described

in

19

the packet

between

Pages 5

and

9.

20

MR. CRIVELLO:

Let me double check

21

that. What are we looking for again?

22

MR. HARLEY:

Fay’s Point.

I just

23

wanted to

ask

you could you please

describe Fay’s

24

Point?

---

Page

14

1

MR.

CRIVELLO:

Sure.

This is the

2

newest

development

on the Calumet

River System

that,

3

as you

can

see

from

this map,

they have a mixed

use

4

development project

with river

access

and

boating

5

access,

and

this community

has -- is

a

modern

6

recreation

--

you

know,

where

water

recreation

is

a

7

component

of

their

plan

to

develop this

property.

8

So

they

dredge this

channel

that

9

you see

and

put

in docks,

and it is

quite

nice.

You

10

know,

it’s new,

you

know,

so

it’s

very -- there’s

11

not

many new

facilities

on

the Calumet,

and this is

12

a good example

of

modern

development

that’s

13

tentative

to its location

and environment.

14

MR.

HARLEY:

On Page 7,

there’s

a

15

description

of the Fay’s

Point NCAA

Division

1

16

women’s

rowing

competition.

17

MR.

CRIVELLO:

Yeah.

18

MR.

HARLEY:

Can

you

please describe

19

what

you

know

about

that rowing

competition?

20

MR.

CRIVELLO:

Well,

this

was

a

great

21

event for

the

Calumet

Waterway System,

because

it

22

really

-- it’s

shown

the transition

from its

23

historical

and industrial

use to

its new use

where

24

water

recreation

is

a

part

of the package.

It was

a

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---

Page

16

1

Calumet

River

is

generally

-- not

generally --

is

2

wide

enough.

It

is

a deep

channel,

and two

barges

3

can pass easily,

you

know, side

by

side.

So most of

4

the

time existing

barge traffic

is

on

the river.

5

But in this particular

case,

it

basically

would

fill

6

up

the

whole

river.

7

MR.

ANDES: Do

you

know

if

that

T

s

the

8

case

with

other

rowing events

that

take

place

in

9

this

area?

Do they usually

stop

all the barge

10

traffic?

11

MR. CRIVELLO:

Well, this

was

the

12

first

one.

It was

the

first

one,

so --

13

MR. ANDES:

The

first Southland

14

Regatta?

15

MR.

CRIVELLO:

Yes,

the first rowing

16

regatta

on the Calumet

River

System.

17

MR. ANDES:

Okay.

And

so

you dont

18

know

about rowing

events

in other parts

of

the

19

Chicago

Area Waterways?

20

MR.

CRIVELLO:

No.

I have

no

21

experience

in

those

areas.

22

MR.

ANDES:

Okay.

23

MR.

HARLEY:

Just

a

couple

other

24

points

along

the

river that I

wanted

to

ask

you

---

Page 17

1

about.

Based on

Exhibit

331 and Exhibit

332,

where

2

do

you keep

your

motorboat?

3

MR.

CRIVELLO: At

the Marine Services,

4

which

is

number

seven. And if

I cover up

-- it’s

5

actually a --

it’s

a

harbor

created by a

clay

mining

6

operation

for

a

brick factory

that

was there.

So

7

when

the

brick

factory

left,

they have this

8

beautiful little

harbor for

motorboats and

water

9

access

for

smaller

boats.

10

MR. HARLEY:

The

final thing

that

I

11

wanted

to ask you about

in

terms of Exhibits

331 and

12

332 relates

to

the area

which is

by

flag

number two,

13

which

is the

Beaubien

Woods site.

14

MR.

CRIVELLO:

Yeah.

15

MR. HARLEY:

Who is the

owner

of

16

Beaubien

Woods? What

entity is the

owner

of

17

Beaubien

Woods?

18

MR. CRIVELLO:

That’s the

Cook

County

19

Forest Preserve.

20

MR.

HARLEY:

And

that’s

immediately

21

adjacent

to the

Calumet

River System?

22

MR.

CRIVELLO:

Yes.

23

MR. HARLEY:

And there’s

a boat

launch

24

there?

---

Page 18

1

MR.

CRIVELLO: Yes, there is.

2

Actually, there’s two

launches into the

water,

as

3

well as

the remnants of what were piers.

It

4

currently

is closed.

5

MR. HARLEY:

And at

the far

6

left-hand-side of the map,

which is Exhibit

331,

we

7

see

along the

Cal

Sag

Channel two other large

green

8

areas.

Are

you

familiar with that portion

of the

9

Cal Sag

Channel?

10

MR. CRIVELLO: Are you

talking

about

11

Highway 45?

12

MR. HARLEY:

Just west of

Highway 45,

13

yes.

14

MR.

CRIVELLO:

Oh, yeah.

No,

that’s

15

the -- one

of the most beautiful forest

preserve

16

properties

with some beautiful remnants

of the

17

geology and full of hiking trails

and such.

18

MR. HARLEY:

And

so

when you

19

considered

your answer

to

the question a

large

20

boating community, question

number three, is this

21

what

you

meant

by

a large

boating community?

22

MR. CRIVELLO:

Yes.

The

large -- the

23

current

boating community -- that was a

pretty

good

24

description of the current boating

community on that

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---

Page

20

1

wherever

you are

in the world,

there’s

a culture

2

that

goes along

with that

river.

That’s been

my

3

experience

in traveling.

I

love

the

water,

and

I’ve

4

been

on

many

different

rivers

and boating

in many

5

different

waterways

across

the United

States

and

6

some

places

around

the

world.

7

MR. HARLEY:

All

right.

Thank

you.

8

MR.

ANDES:

Let’s move

onto the

next

9

question, question

number

four. On

Page

2

of

your

10

testimony,

you

indicate

that

you

have

primarily

11

observed

waterway uses

from Ashland

Avenue

east

12

along the Grand

Calumet River.

Can

you

clarify

13

exactly where?

14

MR.

CRIVELLO:

Yeah, that

was my

15

mistake. It

is somewhat

confusing

with

three

16

Calumets, but

now I

-- the Calumet

-- the

area that

17

I’m

most

interested

in that I

have

spent --

you

18

know, my

testimony

was --

about

this

20 years was

on

19

the waterway

from number

12, Highway

43,

down the

20

Cal Sag

Channel to

the Little

Calumet

River, and

21

then

to

O’Brien

Lock and Dam.

And

then

we

have

the

22

other waterway,

which is

the

mixing

zone,

which

23

has -- there’s

some impact

from

the

river

left in

24

that

comes from the

river,

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---

Page 22

1

spent a

lot

of time

from Lake

Calumet

through five.

2

But then

there’s

some days where

3

you

either

go

out

to

the

lake

and

boat

if

the

4

weather’s

good,

or if

the

weather

is

iffy

and

5

there’s

four-foot waves,

then

you

stay

on the river

6

and

then you

go

west.

And

so

I go

west out

to --

7

basically and

turn

around

at

the

I & M

Canal

and

8

then

come back for

an afternoon.

9

MR.

ANDES:

Okay.

10

MR. CRIVELLO:

I’m sorry

for

that

21

mistake.

I

apologize.

12

MR.

ANDES: That’s

all

right.

There

13

are many Calumets.

14

MR. CRIVELLO:

Yeah.

15

MR.

ANDES:

Let

me move

to number

16

five. You mention

that you

observed

swimming

and

17

tubing

in

the Calumet

System.

Can

you

tell

us

where

18

that

would have

happened?

19

MR. CRIVELLO:

I’ve

seen tubing

down

20

by

the O’Brien

Lock

and Dam,

which is

by

number two,

21

and

then

I’ve also

seen it

-- I’ve seen

them

go by

22

on the river

from my marina

a

couple

of

times, and

23

swimming

was

by

-- actually,

it

was by

number

five.

24

Yeah,

in

that area

there I saw

some

kids

-- some

---

Page 23

1

people

in

the water there,

because

there’s

actually

2

some

lake

-- I mean

riverside

properties

that have

3

private

piers

out

there,

and

so

I’ve

seen -- that’s

4

where

I

saw

some

of

the

people swimming.

And then

5

I’ve

also

seen

them

out

-- further

west

out between

6

number

one

and

number

12.

I

saw some

kids in the

7

water there.

8

MR. ANDES:

How often

did

that

happen?

9

MR.

CRIVELLO:

Not very

often.

You

10

know,

boating

and

swimming,

not very

often.

I’m

11

trying

to

come

up

with

a

number, but

I would

say

12

it’s less

than 20 combined.

13

MR.

ANDES:

Over the

years?

14

MR. CRIVELLO:

Over

the years.

15

MR. ANDES:

Over

the years.

16

MR.

CRIVELLO:

Yeah.

17

MR. ANDES:

Okay.

18

MR. CRIVELLO:

Now

jet

skiing

-- but

19

you

didn’t

ask me

about jet

skiing,

did you?

20

MR.

ANDES:

No.

21

-

MR. CRIVELLO:

Okay.

22

MR.

ANDES:

I think you

already

23

mentioned

it.

24

MR.

CRIVELLO:

Okay.

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---

Page 26

1

enough

that

the

small

boats

are

over

on

the

side

2

where the barges

stay

in the

middle,

and so there’s

3

always

room

for them, you

know,

in their

crossing

4

situation.

There aren’t

accidents.

You

know,

S

people make

mistakes.

But

talking to

the marina

6

owner who’s

been

there for

30 years,

I asked

him if

7

there had

ever been any

accidents

between barges

and

8

boats,

and he said

only one

that he could

remember,

9

and

that was

somebody’s

boat

ran out

of power

and

10

they got nicked

by a

barge and no

one

was

-- the

11

boat

didn’t

sink.

12

But that

was -- and

so

it

is

13

not

-- congestion

is

the difficult

part.

You know,

14

that’s

when it

gets

dangerous.

Now, part

of

this

15

rulemaking

is the

six-mile

channel

north of

the dam.

16

And that’s

the

area

that

is tricky,

and I

would

not

17

recommend

that

anybody but

expert

kayakers

use that

18

six-mile

channel.

We’re

talking about

south

of the

19

dam, and

that’s

a

different

waterway

system.

20

MR. ANDES:

Okay.

21

MR.

HARLEY:

If I could

follow

up?

22

MR.

ADAMS:

Excuse me.

What

do

you

23

mean

by

the --

24

MR.

CRIVELLO:

I’m

sorry.

It’s not

a

---

Page 27

1

dam.

It’s a

lock.

2

MR. ETTINGER:

The O’Brien Locks?

3

MR.

CRIVELLO:

Right, the Locks.

4

MS. TIPSORD: And for the

record,

you

5

need to

identify yourself.

6

MR. ETTINGER:

I’m Albert

Ettinger.

7

I’m counsel for various

environmental groups. I

8

just

wanted to be clear to

the area

you

were

talking

9

about.

10

MR. CRIVELLO:

I appreciate

that.

11

Thank

you.

12

MS.

TIPSORD:

Thank

you.

13

MR. CRIVELLO:

O’Brien

Locks.

14

MR. HARLEY:

If I may follow

up,

is it

15

your

testimony that these are bodies of

water that

16

are

used by

the public?

17

MR. CRIVELLO:

Oh,

yeah, yeah, yeah.

18

MR. HARLEY: And is it your testimony

19

that you

believe that it is appropriate

for these

20

bodies of water to

be

used by

the public?

21

MR. CRIVELLO:

Yes.

22

MR. HARLEY:

I have an exhibit

that I

23

would like

to

introduce at this point.

24

MS. TIPSORD:

Sure.

---

Page

28

1

MR.

ANDES: Does

this

relate to one

of

2

my questions?

3

MR. HARLEY:

Yes,

boating safety.

4

MR. ANDES:

Okay.

5

MS.

TIPSORD:

I have been

handed

Joint

6

Committee

and

Administrative

Rules,

Administrative

7

Code,

Title 17 Conservation.

ItT

s

Section

3704,

8

Appendix

A,

which

would make

it

17IAC,

3704

Appendix

9

A.

If

there’s

no objection,

we will

mark

this as

10

Exhibit

333.

Seeing

none,

itTs

Exhibit

333.

11

MR.

HARLEY:

Mr.

Crivello,

I would

12

like to

ask

you

if

you

would

please

read

the

13

paragraph

-- the

narrative

paragraph

immediately

14

following

the citation,

Section

374 Appendix

A,

15

public bodies

of water.

16

MR.

CRIVELLO:

‘The

following

public

17

bodies

of water

were navigable

in

their

natural

18

condition

or

were improved

for

navigation

and open

19

to

public

use.

The

entire length

and surface

area

20

in

Illinois, including

all backwater

lakes

and

21

sloughs open

to

the main channel

or

body

of water

at

22

normal

flows

or stages

are open

to

the public,

23

unless

limited

to a

head of navigation

as

stated.’

1

24

MR. HARLEY:

That’s

fine.

Thank

you.

---

Page 29

1

And

as

you

look

at the

list

of

public bodies of

2

water

identified

by

the

Department

of Natural

3

Resources

in this appendix,

do you see

the

Calumet

4

River?

5

MR. CRIVELLO:

Yes, I do.

6

MR. HARLEY:

Is it designated as

7

eight, as a public body of water

in this appendix?

MR. CRIVELLO: Yes, it is.

9

MR. HARLEY:

Do

you see

Lake

Calumet

10

and the entrance channel

to

the Calumet

River?

11

MR. CRIVELLO:

Yes,

I

do.

12

MR. HARLEY:

Is that number nine?

13

MR. CRIVELLO:

Yes.

14

MR. HARLEY:

Do

you see

the Grand

15

Calumet River?

16

MR. CRIVELLO:

Yes.

17

MR. HARLEY:

And is

that number ten?

18

MR. CRIVELLO:

Yes.

19

MR. HARLEY:

Do

you see

the

Little

20

Calumet

River?

21

MR. CRIVELLO:

Yes.

22

MR. HARLEY:

Is that number 11?

23

MR. CRIVELLO:

Yes.

24

MR.

HARLEY:

I wanted to

call your

---

Page

30

1

attention, Mr.

Crivello,

to

Page 4

of

5

in

2

Exhibit

333,

and there is a short

introductory

3

statement about

three

quarters of the way

down the

4

page.

Could

you

please

read that into the

record?

5

MR.

CRIVELLO:

“The following

public

6

bodies of water

are primarily artificial

navigable

7

waters

that were opened

to

public use.”

8

MR. HARLEY:

And

do you see

as

an

9

artificial navigable

water that is not open to

10

public

use

the Cal Sag

Channel?

11

MR. CRIVELLO:

Yes, I do.

12

MR. HARLEY:

And is that number

seven?

13

MR. CRIVELLO:

Yes, it is.

14

MR. ANDES:

Mr.

Crivello,

do

you know

15

what public

use

means

in the context of these

16

particular regulations?

17

MR. CRIVELLO:

Well,

navigable waters

18

is that

you, as a

citizen,

have

a

right

to use

those

19

waterways for transportation.

20

MR. ANDES:

Really?

Where is that

21

here?

22

MR.

CRIVELLO:

Well, that is the

23

seaman’s

knowledge. That is what -- that

is the way

24

I

understand it from my experience on

the waters,

---

Page 31

1

that

the

public has

a

right to access

the

water and

2

be

on the

water.

Can I

give an example?

3

MR.

ANDES:

For any use?

4

MR. CRIVELLO:

Well

--

5

MR.

ANIDES:

Including

swimming?

6

MR. CRIVELLO:

Well,

it -- there’s

7

nothing

under

that law that

says you

can or cannot

8

swim,

that

is,

that

you

have

access

to

the

water.

9

But you can

-- you

know,

so

of course there’s

a lot

10

of swimming,

and then there’s

a

lot

of

places where

11

there’s

not

swimming.

12

MR.

ANDES:

So you

wouldn’t

recommend,

13

for

example,

that people

be

swimming

in the

Chicago

14

River

Main Branch?

15

MR. CRIVELLO:

No.

No

swimming,

no.

16

MR. ANDES:

Even

though

it

says it’s

17

open

for

public use?

18

MR. CRIVELLO:

Yes.

19

MR. ANDES:

Thank you.

Ready

to

move

20

on?

21

MR. HARLEY:

Ready

to

move

on.

22

MR. ANDES:

Okay.

Mr.

Crivello, my

23

next

question

-- and

I’ll

cut to

the

chase on these

24

regarding

disinfection

-- you talked

about

---

Page

32

1

disinfection

being vital to

the success

of the

2

plant. What’s

your basis

for

saying

that

in

terms

3

of what

is

disinfection

going to do

that would

be

4

vital

to

the

success

of the

plant?

5

MR.

CRIVEILO:

Disinfection

would

6

allow the

water

quality

standard to

change

to

being

7

occasional

use, I believe,

and

that would

-- and it

8

would

also

complete

--

9

MR.

ANDES:

Can

you

restate that?

I’m

10

not --

11

MR.

CRIVELLO:

That

the

public

12

use

-- ask

the

question

again. I’ll

do a better

13

job.

14

MR.

ANDES:

Can

you

explain

why

you

15

believe disinfection

is vital

to

the

success of

your

16

plant?

What will

disinfection do?

17

MR.

CRIVELLO:

Well, it

will improve

18

the

water

quality,

and it

will decrease

the

public’s

19

perception

of

the

south side waterways

as being

20

industrial

only

and

dead

waterways

and

the

old

21

history

of

they’re

just

sewers.

The

final addition

22

of

disinfection

to

the wastewater

treatment scheme,

23

it

would improve

significantly,

I

believe,

the

24

ability

of

the

public

to

safely

feel

--

to safely

---

Page 33

1

and feel

comfortable

about

accessing

the

water.

2

MR. ANDES:

Will

the public

--

so

3

given

that

-- you’re

aware

that disinfection

4

requirements

for the three

plants would

not

affect

5

the

400

or

so combined

sewer overflow

discharges

and

6

still

would

go

into

the system,

correct?

7

MR. CRIVELLO:

That’s

correct.

8

MR. ANDES:

Okay.

So

-- and you’re

9

aware

that

the plants

-- the

Calumet plant

is on the

10

Cal

Sag

Channel, so

it’s

downstream

from

a

11

significant

portion of the

Calumet

System

that

12

you’re

referring

to.

So

disinfection

is occurring

13

downstream from

the area that

you’re

talking

about

14

in terms

of

Lake Calumet,

et

cetera,

correct?

15

MR.

CRIVELLO:

Mm-hmm.

16

MR. ANDES:

So

how exactly

-- put

17

aside perception

for

a

moment.

Do you

have

any

18

basis

for

believing --

and

if

you

do

please

explain

19

it -- that disinfection

at

Calumet, North

Side, and

20

Stickney

will

significantly

affect

the

actual public

21

health

risk

to

recreators?

22

MR.

CRIVELLO:

Let me

just -- I

don’t

23

think

-- well,

no. I

just

want

to

make

the

24

statement

that this is

an area of

great controversy

---

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