ORiGINAL

Page 1

BEFORE

THE ILLINOIS

POLLUTION

CONTROL

BOARD

IN THE MATTER

OF:

WATER QUALITY

STANDARDS

AND

EFFLUENT

LIMITATIONS

FOR

THE

CHICAGO AREA

WATERWAY

SYSTEM

AND THE LOWER

DES PLAINES

RIVER:

PROPOSED

AMENDMENTS TO

Ill.

Adm.

Code Parts

301, 302,

303

and

304

RECEIVED

CLERK’S

OFFICE

SEP

2009

STATE

OF ILLINOIS

Pollution

Control Board

No. R08-9

REPORT

OF PROCEEDINGS

had

before

the

ILLINOIS

POLLUTION

CONTROL BOARD

held on

August

14,

2009,

9:00 T

clock

a.m.

the

Thompson

Center,

Room-9-40,

Chicago,

Illinois.

Page 2

APPEARANCES:

ILLINOIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD:

MS.

MARIE

TIPSORD, Hearing Officer

MR. THOMAS E. JOHNSON,

Member

MS. ALISA LIU,

Environmental Scientist

MR. LIN SHUNDAR, Member

MS. ANDREA MOORE, Member

ILLINOIS

ENVIRONMENTAL

PROTECTION AGENCY:

Ms. Stefanie Diers

Ms. Deborah Williams

ENVIRONMENTAL LAW AND POLICY CENTER

33 East Wacker Drive, Suite 1300

Chicago, Illinois

60601

(312)

795-3707

BY:

MR. ALBERT ETTINGER and JESSICA DEXTER

Appeared on behalf

of ELPC, Prairie

Rivers

Network and Sierra

Club;

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CHAIRMAN

TIPSORD:

Good morning,

everyone.

My name is Marie Tipsord,

and

I’ve been

appointed

the Board

to serve

hearing officer in

this proceeding

entitled

“Water Quality

Standards and Effluent

Limitations for the Chicago

Area Waterway

System

and Lower Des Plaines River,

Proposed

amendments

35 IL Adm Code 301, 302,

303 and

304. This is

docket number R08-9.

With

me today

immediate

left

is acting chairman

Tanner

Girard,

the presiding

board member. To his

immediate left is board

member Shundar Lin

and

to my far right board member Andrea

Moore will

be joining us. To my

immediate

right is Alisa Liu from

out technical unit.

Nicole Meyer will

joining

us. She is our

extern this

semester. She should

down

little bit

well.

This is our 32nd

day

- hearings. We

are continuing

hear

testimony from members of

the public

today,

and

today

the focus of the hearing

is to

hear

testimony from Dr. David Thomas.

The

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and

we need more

chairs,

there

are plenty

chairs

over here.

can

set

them

back

there

or over here

on the

side.

And they

will have

sit in

the

front row.

Dr. Girard,

do you have anything

this point?

MEMBER

GIRARD:

Good

morning,

and

welcome

to day

No.

32.

I see

these are

the

hard

core participants

on Friday

morning.

We have

little

smaller audience

and

itis

kind of

like church,

nobody

wants

sit

the

front row.

We look forward

your

testimony

and questions

today.

CHAIRMAN

TIPSORD:

With that,

Albert?

MR. ETTINGER:

Did you

swear

the

witness

yet?

CHAIRMAN

TIPSORD:

you want to

introduce

him before

swear him

in?

MR. ETTINGER:

This

is Dr. David

Thomas.

CHAIRMAN TIPSORD:

Thank

you.

Can

we have

the witness

sworn.

(Witness

sworn.)

Page 7

DAVID I. THOMAS,

PH.D.,

having

been first duly sworn,

was

examined and

testified as

follows:

MR. ETTINGER:

guess

we will offer

into evidence Dr. Thomas’ pre-filed

testimony.

THE COURT:

If there’s no objection

we will mark the pre-filed testimony of

Dr. David Thomas

Exhibit No. 327.

Seeing

none, it’s Exhibit No. 327.

(Document

marked as Exhibit

No. 327 for identification.)

AUDIENCE MEMBER:

Ten exhibits per

hearing day it

looks like.

CHAIRMAN TIPSORD:

Pretty close.

And then did

you

want

to go

straight

questions?

MR. ETTINGER:

Yes.

EXAMINATION

BY MS.

FRANZETTI:

With that,

good

morning, Dr.

Thomas.

My name is Suzanne Franzetti. I represent Midwest

Generation. To my right

is Greg Seibert, and

will

asking

you

the questions

today,

and they

Page

are basically the pre-filed questions

Midwest

Gen. Am I correct in assuming that

you

have

copy

of those questions in front of

you?

Yes, I

do.

With

respect to my questions, when

I’m referring

your

pre-filed testimony,

referring

what has now been marked

Exhibit 327.

With that, I’m going

begin

with

question No.

“Have

you

conducted any QHEI

surveys in the upper Dresden Pool and/or in the

Chicago Sanitary & Ship Canal?

No.

So we can skip the follow-up

question. Let’s move

to question 2.

Have

you

conducted QHEI

surveys

anywhere else?

Not

formally QHEI.

I have done

habitat studies,

but

not

formal QHEI survey.

And I will

get to

those habitat

studies in the very

next question. So let’s

go to

that.

Question 3, “Have

you

ever

conducted any

type

aquatic life or habitat

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Page 10

on aquatic wild. Then

more recently I have been

on the waterway system again

for looking

habitats which was

more recent trip

before this

hearing.

Was

this most recent trip in

preparation for this hearing?

That

1scorrect.

Okay.

Let me

just go back and ask

you

some follow-up

questions regarding that

answer.

1991 you conducted

survey

that started

the Stickney

plant?

Correct.

And went north of there,

correct?

Correct.

So you

have

not conducted any

habitat survey for that portion

of the waterways

included in this

rulemaking that is located

downstream of the Stickney

plant, correct?

have

not done any

habitat surveys

per

se.

I’ve been,

a number of times,

to the

electric barrier. I

actually helped collect

some

round gobies

with one of our grad

students that

was doing some work

on the round gobies

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little difficult for

you

estimate the aerial

extent of

the

habitat

you are describing,

but

can

you, as best you

can, in

the

Empress

casino area,

estimate, was that

about an acre or less than

-- a

smaller area than the spillway area? However

you

can--

I mean,

you can

see about a

half

mile

and downstream.

Obviously a more

restricted area in front of

you, but you are

actually going

to be

able

observe

vegetation,

but I could get a good overview. Plus one of

the

EA reports had lots

of photographs

and down

the

pool,

I had some context

to put

what I was

seeing with other

areas that I couldn’t

get to

without

a boat.

Okay.

you say, so you

had

referred

to an EA report?

Absolutely.

As part of your preparation for

and

during these

observations

you

made?

That’s correct.

Which EA report?

It might

have been an attachment

the testimony. There’s

a lot of colored

Page 17

photographs.

It might have been attached

Mr. Seibert’s testimony that’s been filed in this

proceeding?

I think

so, yes.

Did

you

basically find that

your

observations in the areas

you

went

were

consistent

with

what had been reported in the EA

report

you

were referring

to?

Yeah, I would

say pretty much.

don’t remember my overview description in

those

reports of

the

aquatic

weed beds,

but

it may

have

been in there.

Did

you get into the waters in the

Brandon tail water area?

MR. ETTINGER:

What

do you

mean

get into the water?

MS. FRANZETTI:

I’m

sorry.

That was

bad language. I wasn’t asking if

you went

swimming.

THE WITNESS:

did not.

MS. FRANZETTI:

Let me revise

that.

BY MS. FR.ANZETTI:

Did

you go

into

the area known

Page

the Brandon tail waters?

No, I did not

physically.

I would

have loved

have gone down there with

seine

and collect the fish,

but

I did not

get

into the

water at all.

Did you get into the area

all?

Did

you

walk along --

I was

the bridge there. There

bridge going right down below.

I was on the

bridge looking upstream and downstream.

From

the

bridge?

Right.

So you did not wade along the

shoreline looking

habitat?

No.

Did you in these other areas that

you

went

to?

No.

So you did not wade along the

shoreline?

No. Although

I said,

seeing

herons and

egrets out in the water, it gave me

very

good

idea of what

the water depth was what

where I saw them.

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Page 25

So they

have the

data

from the other pools,

Marseilles

and Starved Rock and some of the

others

downstream,

but

the biggest aquatic

vegetation

beds

are in the Dresden Pool.

MR. ETTINGER:

I haven’t had you

read your testimony and background, but

might be

useful for

you just to

explain what

your

role was in the Natural History Survey

since we are talking

much

about

it.

THE WITNESS:

Well, I had two roles

actually. I started

my career in the

Natural

History Survey in the 1960’s

as a

field biologist working

on the Kaskaskia

River, so a

lot of my large river experience

occurred on the Kaskaskia, and then

in --

I’m

bad

on my

dates

-- but

for the last

ten

years or

I was

chief of the Illinois

Natural History Survey. So I review a lot

of the reports. I

actually was

out

on the

Illinois

River electro-fishing and sampling

with some of our crews

our Havana station

and

out

of ourz four biological

stations

and

also our station

down in Dolton in the lower

Illinois

River and Missouri River in Pool

Page 26

26. Because I was particularly

interested

in innovative species, I was

out with some

of our crews

times looking

the

invasive species issues in the Illinois

River.

So that was an area of particular

interest

where I

got

more involved in

actually some of the

data collection than in

some of the other areas where I was

more of

an oversight rule.

MR. ETTINGER:

And

you ceased to be

chief of the Natural

History Survey when?

THE WITNESS:

The end of February

last year.

MR. ETTINGER:

Thank

you.

We’re

talking

much about the Natural History

Survey, I thought I ought

explain where

that came from.

BY MS. FRANZETTI:

Dr.

Thomas,

you mentioned the

study

of aquatic vegetation in the late 1980’s. Is

that

study

cited in your testimony?

No,E

it is not.

Is a

written report of that

study

available;

do you

know?

Page 27

Yes, it is. I think actually it was

done -- well, I’m trying

think -- I think it

was done for Corn Ed actually,

but

I could pull

out

reference.

That’s okay.

you

have one handy,

that

would

great.

Just to

try and give

little more clarity

the record in terms of what

study

this is.

Yes. It was

the final report

went

Commonwealth

Edison Company of Chicago

at that

time. It

was

dated

July of 1992. The title of it

was, “Des Plaines River Long-Term Monitoring

Program,

Vegetation Analysis and Habitat

Characterization.” And the authors were

Pamela

Tazik,

T-A-Z-I-K and Steven Sobaski.

For the court reporter’s benefit,

would

you

please spell the last name?

Sobaski is S-O-B-A-S-K-I.

Now,

you

also mentioned --

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

Excuse me,

Ms.

Franzetti. Is it possible for

us to get

a copy

of that report for the record?

THE

WITNESS:

I don’t have the

whole

report

with me. This is

just a

cover

page,

Page 28

and I think maybe

the executive summary.

that what it is?

MS. DEXTER:

could get copies of

it.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

If we

could

get a full

copy

of it.

MR. ETTINGER:

I think it’s

about

yeah big (indicating).

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

can

reserve a Hearing Exhibit now if

you’d like,

and

you

can give

us the one

copy as

exhibit.

MR.

ETTINGER:

We’ll

get you a copy.

I don’t know that we want

to supply

a copy,

too many copies,

we’ll

see

how it is.

HEARING OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Well, if

you

can

get us a copy, we can always scan

it.

MR.

ETTINGER:

We will

get you a

copy.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

And then

p-eople can

get it from the website.

BY MS. FRANZETTI:

Dr. Thomas,

you

mentioned there

was

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Page

Are there flood plane pools

you’ve

just

defined them in the Upper Dresden

Island pool

from

1-55 up

the north end of the

pool?

No, I think what

you have in that

pool, which

you

also find in much of

our rivers --

I’m sorry

interrupt

you.

“No,

there

are no

flood plane pools in the Upper

Dresden Island Area”?

I don’t believe

I would -- I’d have

check into that. I don’t believe there is.

the

typical flood

plane pools,

you

have these

back

channels and other habitat that’s somewhat

similar.

When

I say flood plane pools,

you have

the whole variety of the connected

back water area

that’s always connected

the river, Something

far up

into

the flood plane -- and that may

only flooded every four or

five years. We

don’t

have that range of habitat

out at

the Dresden

Island pool. But we

do have some of the back

water areas that I would assume,

many of them,

serve some function

as at

least

back water

type

of pool.

But

you

have not

studied that?

Page 39

That’s correct.

Moving on

to question

5. During the

12-year

period from May 1985 through November 1997

when you

were director of the Illinois Waste

Management

and Research Center, did your job

responsibilities involve projects that focused on

aquatic habitat quality

and/or aquatic biology

and? If you

feel you’ve already referred

any

studies

in that time period that qualify as having

focused

on aquatic habitat quality or biology,

please

just

point those out to

me. You don’t need

repeat

what those studies were.

Yeah, I did mention the

Calumet

studies.

We also had studies on Waukegan Harbor.

On Crab Orchard, and again,

lot of those studies

-- there were also studies up

in Rock River.

Most

of those

studies were focused on the effects and

the role of contaminants on those systems

aquatic organisms.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

Mr.

Lin?

MEMBER LIN:

Most of those you

contracted

out

the whole summer?

THE WITNESS: That’s correct.

MEMBER LIN:

So you are not involved

Page

that

research?

THE

WITNESS:

Right. We

contracted

out

various studies. Although,

have

say,

did work

with

a number

the

researchers

sort

focus

sometimes their

studies. They

had

planned

address what

thought

were

some

the

pressing

issues.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Moving

Question 6,

Dr.

Thomas.

During

the

subsequent

11-year

period

from

December

1997

through

February 2008,

when

you

were

the

chief

the

Illinois Natural

History Survey,

did

you

perform

any

field

surveys of

aquatic

habitat

conduct

any

QHEI

surveys

the

river?

Well,

certainly didn’t do

any

QHEI

surveys

because

our

staff

are

really

involved

with

the

long-term

monitoring.

Let

give

you

couple

things.

stayed

involved in

Actually, before you

do.

understand,

no,

you

didn’t

any

QHEI

surveys

the

river.

Did

you

perform

any

field

surveys

the

aquatic

habitat?

I was

involved

with

survey

staff

and

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Havana

area of the

Illinois

River,

and I’ve been

on the Illinois

River

Science

Advisory

Committee,

which is an

advisory committee

to the

lieutenant

governor’s

advisory

council

on the Illinois

River.

I’ve

stayed involved

in sort

river

issues

through those.

Question

“Please

describe

your

experience

in handling

projects

that involve

constructing

improvements

the

physical habitat

in a

river

and the resulting

effects

on the

aquatic

fishing

community?”

Well, I’m

not sure I

can give

you

the

resulting

effects

but

from --

Let’s

start with

-- tell me

about

projects

that you handled

that

involved

constructing

improvements

physical

habitats in

river?

I’m

just

trying

think

of the

dates.

I worked

for

five

and

half

years for an

engineering

firm in

Boston, Massachusetts,

and

they did

a lot of work

on hydro facilities,

small

head

hydros in

New

England,

large

hydro

facilities,

pump

storage

projects,

and some

of the

work through

them was

looking at

mitigation

Page

projects,

particularly for plum storage

where

you

have a

lot of drawdown during the week of

water.

And so

we were looking

creating

artificial

pools

that would maintain water so

when the water

was drawn down, you

could maintain shallower water

habitat for some

fish, like sun fish and that,

they

could

use

them for spawning. So I

have

been

involved in some mitigation projects

with large

engineering projects.

For

your information on pump

storage, I

think most of

you

are probably

familiar,

but

the concept is you

pump water

up the

top

hill

when electricity is cheap, either on

weekend or

night, and then during

the

day

when

you

have to meet

peak power,

you

let the

water come

down through

turbine and generate

electricity to

make

for when peak power is

needed. These have been

particularly

used

conjunction

with nuclear plants that have

have

steady output

of power. By doing that, the

water levels are constantly

fluctuating in there,

so one of

the issues was how

do you

-- is there

way

maintain some habitat

some fish can

spawn or turtles could use

the habitat for

Page

spawning. So we’ve looked

at some of these pools

as a

way

of mitigating drawn down,

weekly drawn

down in

these pools.

All

right. Can

you

give

approximately when

that five-and-a-half

year

position with the

engineering firm in Boston

occurred?

Yes, I think it’s in

my -- I have

look

resume. It was in the late

80’s.

Is that

‘79

‘85?

‘79

to ‘85.

That’s your position

with the

Charles -- is it Chaz

or Charles?

It was Charles T.

P’1ae, actually

bought

out by Parson’s Corporation now.

Now, did

you

get

involved in

creating,

actually creating

any of these

pools?

didn’t myself. We helped

design,

because I’m with an

engineering firm. We told

the

engineers what

we’d like

to see, and then they

worked on the

design and then someone

else did

the

actual

construction

the

pools.

One other

project

out

in the

pump storage --

Page 45

Can we

stay

on this project.

I’ll

let you get

to any others in the minute, but let’s

finish this one up.

So you were

involved in

designing

them. Did they

get

built?

Yes.

All right. Were you still

there

after they

were built?

No.

All right.

So you do

not know what

the effects of those pools were?

Right, and that’s why I said I

couldn’t answer that part of your

question.

That’s

what

was trying

understand the basis for your answers.

All right. Any

other

projects

that

you

were

involved

in?

The only other one I was going to

mention is there was a water storage

project

the

Delaware River that, I don’t know, some of

you

may have remembered, there was going to be a tox

island built, dam built on the

Delaware River.

was

hugely controversial back in the 70’s, I

believe. That was defeated,

but

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Page 47

done in the upper Dresden Island pool

improve

habitats?

I’m

not

sure. Something similar to

that

necessarily would

helpful.

One

of the

things

that I have thought of though on the

waterways is that I think, and this is something

that Dick Lanyon and I talked about way back in

the

early

90’s

when I took

the

trip, I think

the

areas where there is

lot of riffraff and

least there

used to be

on the shore

lot of

cinder block and cement and that, I think

some

of those

were

put just

off shore

you

could

probably protect some of the areas behind those

little bit

away from barge traffic and potentially

create some,

little bit more stable habitat for

fish breeding or nursery areas for young

fish.

I think --

How would

you do

that, Dr. Thomas?

think

you would need to

create

sort of

long thin dike or small island or

whatever. You

get

almost some of that habitat

under

the bridges

where

you have pilings

there

and

you

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Well, don’t speculate as to what

has.

But I don’t have it.

I understand. You

don’t have the

data --

Right.

-- on which

determine

whether

there are areas in

the

upper

Dresden Island pool

that would

benefit from mitigation projects and

what extent,

correct?

That’s correct.

Okay.

Moving on

question 8.

Have

you

conducted any field work that

studied

the

effects of ambient

water temperatures on aquatic

species?

I find that sort of

strange

question.

Oh,

yes.

Why?

Well, ambient water

temperatures,

the effect

-- I mean, what

you see

in most

aquatic

systems is, I

guess,

where

you

have a gradient in

the natural ervironment, you may see

fish respond

that

gradient,

but --

How are

you

using the term

gradient?

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Page

the

fish avoided a

good

part

the thermal plume,

and then there were times when they were

attracted

the thermal plume.

THE COURT REPORTER:

I need one

second, please.

HEARING OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Why don’t

we take our first break. Ten minutes,

please.

(Whereupon

break was taken,

after which the following

proceedings

were

had:)

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

Do we

remember where we were or do we need the

court reporter

refresh

us?

MS. FRANZETTI:

I’m there,

always.

BY MS. FRANZETTI:

Dr. Thomas, before we broke part of

what

we were

talking about

was

your

work with

the

Oyster Creek nuclear station

out

in New Jersey.

And again can

you

approximate what year that

occurred? For example, was that for the time

you

were working for the Charles Main?

No, that was before then. It would

Page

have

been in the 70’s.

And who were

you

doing that study

for?

Was it for the utility that owned

the Oyster

Creek

station?

Yes, it was for Jersey

Power And

Light, I believe.

And

did that

study

make any

findings

with respect to

the impact of the

nuclear station

on the

aquatic community?

Well, there were lots

of reports

that were either

submitted

the Nuclear

Regulatory

Commission or some papers

that came

out

of it. So

there’s a lot

of different aspects.

I’m not sure

I can summarize in a

few words

what

the

impacts were.

Do you

recall whether any of

the

studies concluded

that the thermal

discharge from

the

Oyster Creek station was

having any

significant

adverse effect on the aquatic

community?

Well, one of

them I remember that

was -- let me

backtrack.

Probably the most

visible impact

was

actually from cold

shock, and

few times in

Page

the

colder

months

of the

year

they

had

to shut

down the

power

plant.

Usually

some

unexpected

thing

happened

in the

plant,

and

there

were

some

pretty

significant

fish

kills.

It seemed

two

Thanksgivings

a row

ended

having

leave

dinner

and

drive

the

Oyster

Creek

plant

and

count

the

fish that

had been

killed

when

the

plant

shut

down.

And

that’s

a case

where

the

fish

are

adapted

to warm

water.

The

plant turns

off.

All

sudden

the

water

is very

cold.

They have

place

to escape

to in

terms

of finding

other

warm

water,

and

you

get

what’s

called

cold

shock

the

fish.

did that

have

effect

the overall

population

those

species?

don’t

think

anybody

was able

measure

that.

But

you could

measure

the

number

fish

that

were

outright

killed.

also

had

estimates

the

number

fish

killed

intake

screens

and going

through

the

plant

trying

to --

question

was

on the

thermal

effect

the

river

the

aquatic

community.

don’t

think

entrainment

part

my question.

Well

part

mortality

entrainment

thermal,

part

is potentially

Page

chemical

and part of it may be

mechanical going

through

the plant for entrained

organisms.

Okay,

Dr. Thomas. That’s fine, if

you

think so.

But with respect

the cold shock,

that

happened

few times

that

plant in

that

period?

Well, two or

three times over seven

years

say.

And

you

were saying that you could

quantify the

number of fish that were

killed

cold

shock,

but

not what

the lasting effect was,

if any?

That’s correct,

or population. It

becomes

different

issue

then look at, did it

have

negative

impact on the

population, which

think may

your underlying

question, and we were

not able

demonstrate

that there was any

population

effect. There was an

effect on the

fish that were residing

there,

but

on the overall

population, most

of these were coastal populations

we were not able to determine

the negative

impact on the population

itself.

When

you say you

were not able to

determine, did

you

make some

attempt

to determine

Page

it?

looked

the population levels

some of the fish

around the plant, and in

Barnegat

Bay versus

other populations

and down

the coast, because

had other studies going.

So,

for instance, we had --

Dr.

Thomas, can I

stop you there

because

that’s

enough for me?

Sure.

So you were trying

to do a

comparison after the cold shock occurred

with the

fish

populations

of the fish in area of the

nuclear station’s discharge

and fish populations

outside of the area of that discharge,

correct?

‘5

And from that comparison

did

you

find

a negative

effect?

Well, none that we could

document

statistically. The problem

is in natural

environments, the fluctuation of

populations is

great enough that

you really need

very

large

impact

actually

able

to measure it

statistically. I think we found

an entrainment

effects, and this

is the only figure I

remember,

that

need almost an

80 percent change in

Page 60

population of

plankton organism

for it

actually

show

up as a

statistically

significant

negative

impact. So

this is one of the problems

with some of these studies, it’s

difficult to

quantify

because

of the large natural

variation

that

you

are

dealing with.

there was not enough

of an impact

from

the cold shock event to

measure any

statistically

significant

difference?

Population,

right. There was

definite

impact on the population -- you

have

define the population.

you

looked

the

population

within the discharge canal, yes, that

was

significant because it was a

large

percentage

of any particular

species in the discharge canal

that time.

you

are looking at

the

broader

population

like stripped bass

along the Atlantic

coast,

no, there was

no detectable impact from

that,

no.

Do I understand

correctly then the

bulk of the

fish that were killed because the

plant shut down causing

cold shock

were in

the

discharge canal area?

That is correct.

Page

Now,

just to

finish answering

your

question

about

thermal, probably the biggest

thermal

impact that utility ended

having

readily pay out

was

because a

tropical marine

bore, a

wood bore -- there’s some boring. They

are called wood bores -- the invertebrate that

bore into

wood. It

must

have gotten in with

some

ships

coming in from farther south, and it

got

established in the heat of

discharge canal, and

actually some of it started destroying some of the

docks and parts of

Barnegat Bay, and that was

effect,

not the kind of effect that

you

normally

think of,

but

that was an effect

the heated

water and that was something that could

measured in terms of the amount of destruction of

docks,

due

to this more tropical

wood

bore that

was able to

survive in the discharge canal.

Dr. Thomas, are

you

aware of any

cold shock

events

occurring

with respect

to the

Midwest Generation stations either along the

CAWS

or the upper Dresden Island pool?

No, I

have

not heard or

read

about

any.

Given your work for nuclear plants,

Page

although

I’m not sure how much

you

are aware about

coal fire

generating stations,

but

if you

can’t

answer

this question

because you

don’t

know,

that’s

fine,

just

tell me, isn’t it

true that cold

shock

occurs primarily at

nuclear plants

because

of their tendency

trip?

Well, I actually have worked at a

number

of coal fire plants, but

I don’t know that

that’s

true. I couldn’t say.

Just

moment.

Moving on

question 9.

What

do you

mean

the statement in

your

testimony, Section 2, second page,

first

paragraph, that,

“I also understand the argument

that a

QHEI score of 35

60 is a

range in

which

waterways may

able to

meet the Clean Water Act

goal, depending

upon particular characteristics of

the

area”? Does that statement in

your testimony

mean that

you

agree with

that argument?

Yes, I agree with their basic

argument that it was

reasonable

expectation for

that system.

And what is the basis for your

agreement?

Well, Yoder testified that these

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in the flood plane. My

understanding of it was,

you

would

just

include the

habitat within the

river, and

yet you

would

excluding habitat

that’s very important

many of those

species

carry

out their life cycle.

all I’m saying

is,

if anything, I

think these numbers may

low

the kinds of habitats that

are available in the

systems that we’re studying.

I’m not sure I fully understand.

let me ask

you

few questions.

Are

you saying that

because

large

fish are able

move large

distances,

that -- are

you referring

fish living

outside,

for example, the upper Dresden

Island pool and

saying that

sometimes they

wiTl

come in for

visit, and

you

know, then

move on? I am not

understanding the significance

of your point

that

they --

Let me give

you

just

an example.

Say

have

collection -- habitat

evaluations

done

mile

down the stream of the tail

waters of

the Brandon, the

riffle habitat. When we

do the

QHEI,

that’s going

to get a zero for riffle. Yet

what I’m

saying is, for many of the fish

that need

Page

riffle

habitat for

some part of their life

history,

that that

riffle is still available

them.

Even small fish

like the

Black

Sided

Garter, which is one

them

studied

the

Kaskaskia --

Where is the riffle available

them?

Below them in the tail water

area.

you

are saying they

go up to the

tail water area

enjoy the riffle?

Well, they may breed there.

Fine.

And then they move back down

the

pool afterwards. You

collect them in the

pool,

you do

your habitat evaluation in that pool,

which

doesn’t include any

-- you

have zero for riffle

habitat, and yet

what

I’m saying

from

the fish’s

point of view, that riffle habitat is still

available, even though it’s still a mile away.

But if

you

are doing, not

just QHEI,

but you

are also doing fish surveys in the

pool --

Right.

-- then don’t

you

have

the

two

pieces that

you

are talking about?

Page

You

do.

But that’s why I’m saying

if you just

-- and that’s why they

say,

the QHEI

often

used

in lieu of the monitoring. If you

have all the monitoring data,

you

are documenting

what the habitat is.

You

really don’t

need

QHEI.

But

it becomes

important in this

case. All

I’m

saying is,

yes,

we are talking

about

-- I’m

just

testifying that this is

range

from what I know of the system in which you have

good

potential of meeting the goals of

the Clean

Water Act.

I mean, in terms of habitat.

Did

you study

here the fish survey

data

that’s available

on the upper Dresden

Island

pool in connection with the QHEI scores

draw

‘5

any opinion

as to

potential

to attain

the Clean

Water Act goals?

I think I have gone through all of

the fish

data

reports that have been made

available as

part of this record. I’ve also

relied somewhat on some other

data

that the

Natural History Survey has_collected regarding

fish and

the upper

Illinois

River basin. In terms

of looking

the QHEI for

station versus the

fish collected there, and do I think

-- I did

not

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Page 72

testified in

big river system the area

might

bigger. The relevant area in terms

of their life cycle might

different. So

I think there’s

little ambiguity in your

question and that may be confusing.

BY MS.

FRANZETTI:

Maybe I should ask this --

I did not rely totally on the QHEI

scores. I relied on the fisheries

data as

they

reflect their ability

live and grow in that

section

of the river.

Okay.

Maybe I should have asked

you,

what do you

mean

“depending on the

particular characteristics of the area,” what

you

mean that’s an argument that

you

agree with?

All the areas, all the habitats

that

might

available, logs in the water, sand,

gravel, shore line, some current, aquatic

vegetation.

did

you go

back

the QHEI

reports here and look at the locations

that

scored

in 45 to 60 t

try and evaluate those particular

circumstances?

Well, I didn’t look at all

of them,

Page 73

I can tell

you

that. I looked

the

sheets

that

gave all the scores,

but

I did look

some of

them, and that’s why I gave the example, there’s

one station downstream from the tail water area,

and that has zero for riffle, riffle habitat, and

yet

argument

those

fish had that riffle

available

them and would have

used

it and

probably

do use

it if that’s needed for carrying

out a

portion of their life cycle. So that’s what

I meant by some of these scores I think

underestimate

the total habitat that’s

available

some of these fish.

And the scores

you were

referring

those, those included the QHEI scores that were

produced by

Mr.

Yoder’s company?

Well, I looked

all

the

ones

that

were available I think.

Do you know whether or not that work

was included in what

you

reviewed? You

mentioned

Rankin?

A._

Right.

That’s different from --

And I saw the Yoder ones.

Okay, you did. That’s what I’m

Page 74

talking about.

Okay. But

I saw also -- didn’t EA

do a

separate analysis

themselves? And I looked

those also.

With respect

Mr. Yoder’s

firm’s

QHEI

work, did

you

look at the corrected

QHEI

scores?

saw that there were corrections

made, but I

wasn’t trying

analyze -- I

mean,

when you

have all this detailed

information --

Dr. Thomas,

did

you

look

the

corrected

QHEI scores?

I saw the corrected

-- did it mean

anything

me,

no. But I saw the corrected

scores.

I think is

does

make

difference though

that

I wasn’t relying on

those

tell me what’s

happening to the

fish populations.

HEARING OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Excuse me,

Ms. Franzetti. Just

for clarification of

the

record, we keep talking about

the EA

report, and I have

assumed and we should

probably put

it on the record,

when

you talk

about

the EA report that are a

part of

this

record,

you

are

talking

about

materials that

Page 75

are already in the record or were

a part

the pre-filed testimony for Midwest

Generation; is that correct?

THE WITNESS: I believe

so.

I’ll

tell

you,

I’ve reviewed

many things.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

But they

are

items that

are already

in the record or

will be?

THE WITNESS:

I hope

so.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

That was

your understanding?

THE WITNESS:

That’s my

understanding. I think everything you sent

me,

the Plankton reports, the various

Fisheries reports.

MS. DEXTER:

terms

QHEI

everything

that he’s reviewed.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

I was

asking about the EA

reports. We keep

talking

about

the EA reports. I

just

assumed when he reviewed the record, that he

was talking about the

reports

that

are

part

of the pre-filed testimony or maybe placed

in. If that’s not the case, then we need

Page 76

him

provide

those that are not

won’t

introduced.

MR.

ETTINGER:

May

suggest

that

the three of

should

talk. EA has

actually been

doing studies of these systems

since the ‘80s

and I want

make

sure we

didn’t send him one of those

earlier

studies. I don’t

think we did,

but

I’d like

talk to

Ms. Dexter and Dr. Thomas

and

make sure that

we didn’t give him an

earlier

BA report that wasn’t in

the record, and we

will

get

back to you

on that.

HEARING OFFICER

TIPSORD:

And that’s

fine. My only request

is, if he did look

something

that is not part of

the record,

that we make it part

of the record.

MR.

ETTINGER:

We’ll

get

back to

you

with

an answer on that.

HEARING

OFFICER TIPSORD:

Okay,

thank you.

Sorry, Ms. Franzetti.

BY MS.

FRANZETTI:

Dr. Thomas,

you’ve mentioned

the

Brandon tail

water area and -- are you

aware

that

the

median QHEI score in the

Brandon tail water

Page 77

area is

about

46?

I thought

that was somewhat below

the actual

-- does

that

include the whole tail

water?

Yes.

That seems awfully low

me.

I’m sorry,

I think I

just

misstated

that. Except for the

Brandon tail water area,

except for the Brandon tail water. I

left out

key word in formulating that question. Do

you

agree from what

the QHEI scores

you

reviewed

that

the median is

about

46?

MR. ETTINGER: I’m sorry, I’m

still

unclear what we

are talking about. The

upper Dresden Pool, the median score is

46,

outside of

the Brandon tail water?

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Correct.

BY THE WITNESS:

I’m not

positive. If I remember,

that sounds like it may

the

ballpark

of what

someone has reported.

BY MS. FRANZETTI:

That’s fine. I’ll ask

you to assume

it. The

record

will

bear

out

whether or not

Page 78

that’s

an accurate median value. And do I

understand

your testimony correctly

that even

though

that median value is at

that very low end

the 45

60 range, that you

still believe it’s

reasonable

conclude that

the upper Dresden

Island pool can

attain the Clean Water Act aquatic

life goals?

I wasn’t sure when

I was going

get

into this,

but

guess

might

well jump in

now.

It’s interesting when you

look

-- and this is -- if you’ll

excuse me

minute. I’m going to

jump off

something else.

But I’m

going

to get

back

your

question -- if

you

look

IBI scores

and

you

look

the Fox

River, and that’s

been in the record. The

IBI

scores for the

flowing part of the

Fox River,

and

the

IBI scores for the

impounded parts, you

see

that the IBI

score for the impounded

parts on

the

Fox

River is

about

the same as

the Dresden Pool.

Maybe

even

little

bit lower. I think the values

have been

reported. The problem here

is -- and

there’s

doubt,

and there’s

been testimony, the

effects of impoundment

of the effects of diversity

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MR. ETTINGER:

Are

you including

treatment areas?

MS. FR.ANZETTI:

To the extent they

are a part

what this proceeding has

defined

the

upper Dresden Island pool,

yes.

BY THE WITNESS:

I would

say

that it would

characterized as slower moving water for most of

the

rest of

the pool. I think there’s somewhere

in the record what sort of an average velocity

through the pool,

but

I’m not positive I

remember

that.

BY MS. FRANZETTI:

You do agree that, except for the

tail waters, riffles are absent from the

upper

Dresden Island pool?

I’m not

positive that other riffles

aren’t available in some of the tributaries,

but

yes,

for the

pool itself, I would agree.

What

tributaries

the upper

Dresden Pool are

you

talking

about?

Let me

see.

Jackson Creek

actually

comes in the downstream of

1-55, correct?

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capable of maintaining

something close

the

Clean Water Act goal of

a balanced indigenous

population.

I haven’t asked

you,

have

you made

these determinations before

as to

whether or

not

particular

body of water can attain the Clean

Water Act aquatic life

use goals or is this the

first time

you

are opining on that

topic?

Well, I find the whole concept

of --

I tend to approach it from

species point of

view.

Dr. Thomas, the question

is whether

or not --

I’m getting there.

I tend

approach it from the species point of view.

broad, general

term like that

used

in our legal

system doesn’t have huge overriding

meaning

to me.

mean,

I’m not sure anybody could totally

tell

in any of these water

bodies what the balanced

indigenous population should look

like, for one

thing. And

I have seen the historical

data

could probably tell

you better than most what

was, but it’s never going

to be what it is now

and

what it’s

going

to be.

What’s the

imbalance

Page 88

indigenous population

for

Lake

Michigan?

get a

new

invasive

species that

takes off

every year.

So populations

are changing

there every

year,

the

mix,

the balance of

them. So

I’m not

sure

anybody

really

could

tell

you very

actively

what

balanced

indigenous

population should

look like

there.

What I’m saying

is, for

this system

think

have

basic assemblage

species

that

in my

view

would

probably

what we

could

expect

in that system.

Moving

the

Chicago Sanitary

Ship

Canal.

Can

you

describe

for

me the

location

and extent

of the

micro habitats

that exist

this

Sanitary

and

Ship canal?

Well, of

course, it’s

very

diverse

system

with,

you

know,

lots of

difference between

the

north channel

No, no,

no, the Chicago

Sanitary

Ship

Canal only.

Sorry,

okay.

Habitats

general

are more

limited

there,

but

on the

other hand

there

is --

No,

Dr. Thomas,

where

are the

micro

habitats

the

Chicago

Sanitary

& Ship Canal?

Page

The broken riffraff.

And where is it?

Along the shore.

Of the --

MR.

ETTINGER:

you

want

meets

and

bounds description? Should we get

map

out?

I’m not sure what your question

is.

MS. FRANZETTI:

Well,

Albert, I’m

asking what is the

basis for his statement

that there are micro

habitats in the Chicago

Sanitary

Ship Canal?

MR. ETTINGER:

Why

don’t

you

ask

that

question, and he can answer that.

BY MS.

FRANZETTI:

I would like to

know the extent of

them and their

location in the ship canal,

otherwise

these are

just

generalized statements

that really can’t

evaluated.

Number one, we

are using a

term that he’s admitted isn’t

even

used

in the literature. It’s his own

term.

So I

think I’m entitled

know

what

you

are saying is

the extent

their

location in the Chicago

Sanitary & Ship Canal and where are they

located.

So I don’t need meets and bounds, but

I need

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referring

in this testimony.”

And

will

just

add,

I know

you

talked about the

potential

construction of

dike.

We already have that.

But I don’t

know that

you

have identified any

other

improvements

you

think, habitat

improvements, that could

made in the

upper

Dresden pool that we haven’t

already discussed.

I’m not asking you to

repeat your testimony,

but to

make sure I know all of what

you

are

referring to.

MR. ETTINGER:

I’m

sorry,

you just

shifted

back

the upper Dresden Pool. You

want

answer this for the

upper Dresden

Pool or are

the Sanitary Ship Canal?

MS. FRANZETTI:

The question is the

Dresden Pool, and I believe

his prior

testimony

regarding construction of the dike

was also the Dresden Pool.

MR. ETTINGER:

I was confused.

MS. FRANZETTI:

So, yes,

we are

staying in the Dresden Pool.

MR. ETTINGER:

I was-confused

because

your last

set

of questions was

about

the Chicago Sanitary & Ship Canal.

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Page 94

haven’t

done that

type of analysis?

That’s

correct.

Moving on

to Question 13,

do you

believe the absence of

sufficient food for fish

currently

limiting factor

to species abundance

and diversity in the upper Dresden

Pool?

Well,

I have not seen any

data that

would indicate that food

is a limiting factor,

with

possible exception of

small mouth

bass.

The EA

study

showed plankton in

the upper

Dresden

Pool to be similar

other large water

bodies.

think Burton and Siegert

testified the

condition

of fish in the upper Dresden Pool is similar

other water bodies. But

their reports did

say

that small mouth

bass

had lower

condition.

Whether that’s temperature effect or

food

effect

or some other thing,

I don’t really know. But

the

data

I’ve seen

does

not seem

to indicate that

food

limiting

for most of the fish in the

system.

MS. FRANZETTI: And,

again, the

data

that

you

are referring

to,

is that

something, Counsel-i that maybe we can

get

some clarification

on after you’ve had

chance

talk

him?

Page 95

MS.

DEXTER:

I think

we need

to go

back

and look

through

the

reports

and

identify

which

ones

he’s

talking

about.

THE WITNESS:

I apologize

if some

of them

weren’t

the

records.

understanding

was

it was

part

of the

record.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

It may

well be,

Dr.

Thomas.

You

don’t have

apologize

for anything

this

point.

just

need

get

a little

clarity

when

you

say

the data

you’ve

seen.

You

can

appreciate

that.

I’m

sorry

that

didn’t

get

specific.

Right,

and

it makes

difficult,

not

impossible,

for

ask

follow-up

questions

about

that

data.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

And

that note,

Madam

Hearing

Officer,

I’m

just

going

reserve

the

right

ask

further

questions

of Dr.

Thomas-when

we do

have

little

clarity

and

certainty

the

data

that

he’s

referring

for some

these

statements.

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Page 103

Well, I -- for the white sucker,

relied on -- Yoder had an upper avoidance

temperature of about 84 degrees

Farenheit and an

upper incipient lethal

temperature of

about --

rounding it off to about 89

degrees Farenheit.

There

was -- I had some

data

from Fish and

Wild

Life Service that had a little bit

higher upper

incipient lethal temperature

for white sucker

91.4 degrees

Farenheit.

those are two

sources. They

are off

by a

few degrees, but

you

get

that kind of variation in the

literature.

The

logperch, I had an upper

incipient temperature of 26 degrees

centigrade.

I’m not sure the table I got

is in the record or

not.

you

remember what

table

you got

it from?

Well, I have the table.

That’s

good start.

Pull that

baby

out.

You’ll have

give me

minute

here. I am not sure if it’s

in the folder or not.

You

know what, what we can

is, I

think

at a

certain

point

here that I won’t be done

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Page 105

look through there

to see if -- because

they

have a

number of species listed.

Dr. Thomas,

you

want

to just

maybe

include that in the homework I’m giving you for

the lunch hour?

MR. ETTINGER:

Brungs and Jones

in the record?

MS. FRANZETTI:

It’s been mentioned.

I’m

not

positive if it is or not.

It’s

definitely

been

mentioned. I’m not sure --

BY THE WITNESS:

I don’t think that’s where

-- I

don’t

think that’s where I

got

it. I think it

was

more recent

data.

I was just looking quickly. I

know there’s

table.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

Jess

indicates that’s she’s checked and it’s not

in the record.

MS. DEXTER:

If it becomes time, we

can

put

it in the record.

MS. FRANZETTI: Well, he

just

said,

at least on this one -- it may change on

logperch -- he didn’t rely

that.

Yes, I was

supposed to

look

white

Page

106

perch. I was looking

logperch. Yes, white

sucker

is in there

-- no, well --

What’s

the temperature in there?

Well,

they just list here the

maximum weekly average temperature

for growth, and

they listed that

82 degrees in Farenheit.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

At this

point we need

put that in the record.

We’re reading from it, we

need

to put

it in

the record.

MR. ETTINGER:

You can

put

it in

the

record,

but

I need it

back.

MS. FRANZETTI: At least Jessica

comes prepared unlike

some other people we

won’t name.

MR. ETTINGER:

She’s eager

to get

rid of these.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

I’ve

been

handed Temperature

Criteria for Fresh

Water

Fish Protocol &

Procedures, U.S. EPA,

Environmental Research Laboratory

Office of

Research

& Development. And it’s

got a May

1977

date

on it. If

there’s no objection,

we will

enter that

Exhibit 328.

Seeing

Page 107

none, it’s Exhibit 328.

(Whereupon Exhibit No. 328 was

entered into the

record.)

MS. WILLIAMS: I’d

to clarify

for the record. I don’t

want

to object.

believe Jessica

is correct, that this is not

an exhibit,

but

I believe the Agency

submitted it.

MS. DEXTER:

believe I checked

through.

MS. DIERS:

Mr. Yoder did follow

up,

and it was attached.

MS. DEXTER:

In the big one,

yes.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Well,

when

we had

supplemental

what people requested,

I’m pretty sure it was in there.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

That’s

fine,

but

since we are dealing with it

the hearing, we’ll

ahead and mark it

again.

THE WITNESS:

I should

just add

that, on page 51, Appendix B, they

actually have it listed

its

scientific

name, which is Catostomidae, and they

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Page 113

probably occurred somewhere

between two and

four miles downstream. But I

don’t know -- I

mean, if

I was one that was going

to do a

real

evaluation

of that, I would -- and I think that

thermal plumb

data

was referenced somewhere

someone’s testimony that the plumb study

was

done -- I

just

had not

seen the results of that

plumb data.

That would sort of

helpful, I

think.

How would

you use

that data?

Why

would it

helpful?

I mean, there’s statements in here,

like there’s room for fish to

move under the

plumb

or away from it, which I assume is correct,

but

haven’t seen the

data

that really

shows me. For

instance, suckers are

going

to be

near the

bottom

and the

red

horses.

what is the temperature

along the bottom, and when it fully mixes

what

are

the temperatures really there. I don’t really

know. And without seeing that -- I mean, I think

I have seen some

things

from the 1-55

bridge

that

seems like it can

up to

70 degrees

Farenheit, above ambient temperature,

but,

again,

without seeing good

plumb

data and

how that

plumb

Page 114

operates

and

what

the

top to

bottom

and what the

one

side

the

other are,

it’s a little

hard

evaluate,

what’s

available

for

fish for

avoidance

or attraction

whatever

so.

What

do you mean

the

carrying

capacity of

the system?

I’m still

question

19.

Carrying

capacity

is just

term,

fisheries’

term

used

indicate,

you

will,

the

poundage of

different

fish that a

system might

support.

It’s

based on

habitat

and

competition

and food

availability

and

variety

of other

things. You

might hear

the term,

you know,

this

area

will support,

don’t

know,

X-number

large

mouth

bass or

many

pounds of

fish or whatever,

so --

in that

part of

your statement,

are

you

basically

saying that

it’s your opinion

that there would

more fish there?

think certain

species, we

might

expect an

increase

of if temperatures

were

lower.

Which

ones?

The

red

horses,

the

white sucker

might

one.

Walleye

could

one. Small

mouth

bass could

be included

in that.

Those would

be a

Page 115

few of the species right offhand that

I can

think

of.

Moving on

question 20.

In your

testimony

you

note that

you,

“Have not seen

data

that demonstrates that sediment toxicity is

major factor limiting the

aquatic life potential

of this system.” Did

you

consider in your

review

of QHEI scores

what extent sediments were

present in those areas that scored greater than

and to what extent the presence of those

sediments, separate and apart from the

issue of

their toxicity, would impair the quality of that

location for aquatic habitat?

Well, sedimentation is

problem

throughout our state, actually throughout the

Midwest, and there’s no

doubt that just heavy

sedimentation in and of itself has been for

a long

time and continues to

a problem. I think

actually from my view of, like

the pool and the

data

I’ve seen, probably the turbidity, the

amount

of sediment in the water is probably

little

bit

lower in the upper Des Plaines

pool and probably

lower than it is lower down in the river

some other

rivers like the Kaskaskia or some of

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Page 119

It’s not significant?

It’s

not of

a magnitude that’s

greater than,

say,

most other impounded large

rivers in Illinois or the Midwest.

MR. ETTINGER:

Are we ready for

lunch break yet?

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

We need

try

to get

done with Ms. Franzetti.

BY MS. FRANZETTI:

Dr. Thomas, the turbidity levels

that you are

referring

to, again,

what is the

extent of your observations regarding turbidity

levels in the upper Dresden Island Pool?

My own personal observation would

very limited.

Let’s

move

question 21. Do

you

have an opinion

as to

whether sediment toxicity

factor limiting the aquatic life potential of

this

system? And I’m going

amend that

question

first

just

refer

the upper Dresden Island

pool.

There’s no

doubt that

in laboratory

studies of some organisms, some of those sediments

are toxic. Having said that, it’s sort of like

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Page 122

And

you do not

believe

that he took

the position that sediment toxicity is

factor

limiting the

aquatic

life potential of this

system?

Well, I can’t speak for him. He may

well

have taken

that opinion

but --

I’m not asking

you to

speak for

him.

I’m asking

you

when

you

read his report, his

testimony with the attached report, with regard

the sediment sampling and his findings, am I

correct that

you

did not believe

he was

saying

that sediment toxicity is

limiting constraint

the system?

He may have said that,

but

also

said there’s a thriving fish population. He also

said that

the population of plankton

is similar

there

other large reservoirs.

I mean, I

don’t know. There’s two things. What he said and

interpretation of what he said

couple

different places was what is in the record in

terms of_the populations that are there.

So you

disagree with his

interpretation of the sediment

data

that was

presented in his report?

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Page 124

that more

fully for

me, please, what

you

are

referring

to.

Yes,

I could --

this is

paper

that’s

going

to be

published.

It’s

not

published

yet. So what

I heard was

progress

report.

Actually,

it’s

manuscript

in preparation

for

publication,

but

it hasn’t

been

accepted yet

published

the peer reviewed

literature.

Who did

the study

that they

are

preparing

to publish?

Michael Litti

was the

primary

-- oh,

wait.

There

group

of authors,

and

it’s

2009

study. The name

it was “Identifying

The

Causes of

Sediment Associated

Contamination

the

Illinois

River Using

Whole

Sediment

Toxicity

Evaluation,

TIA.

Why is that

relevant

here?

It’s

relevant

because

some of

their

stations were

in the Dresden

Pool.

Oh, okay.

Or in

the Chicago

waterways

under

consideration.

They did

other parts

the

Illinois

River,

but

really

they

found the

toxic

effect

only in

the

waterways

we are talking

about.

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Page 126

population effect or an effect on any particular

population

due

to contamination of the sediment.

Now, can you tell

who these

researchers are associated with?

Southern Illinois University.

I think all we had was Southern

Illinois, which could

be a

geographic location and

not the university.

Yes.

And, again, their findings for

stations that were within the -- is it --

I think their upper station might

have been the Stickney plant or somewhere near

there, and then they had

few stations --

Down stream?

-- including, I think, some in

the

Dresden Island Pool.

And with respect

their findings,

they found the sediments were toxic?

Some of them.

Okay.

Like all studies, there’s

lot

variations between

stations. So you may have

toxic area in one area and the next area may

not

Page 127

or may be much lower.

So some of the stations within the

waterway system we’re looking

in this

proceeding did show that the sediments would

toxic to

aquatic

life, correct?

No,

were toxic to

the two

test

organisms that they utilized.

And those

test

organisms were not

aquatic life?

No, they are aquatic lives, but

you

can’t

make the generalization

all aquatic

life.

Fish might not have -- if

you

put fish in there,

these

are planktonic organisms basically.

So if

you put

fish in there, they may have had very

different results or quite

different

results.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

Dr.

Thomas, did I understand

you

that this is

not yet published?

There’s

no written

material on this? This is

based

you

seeing

presentation at a conference?

THE WITNESS:

Well, and

I also

got a

draft of their paper that is going for

publication.

MS. FRANZETTI:

Can

you supply us

Page 128

with

a copy

of the draft?

THE WITNESS:

I would have

to get

the author’s permission I think.

I’m

sorry

for that.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

That’s

quite all

right.

I thought I might

able

short circuit some questions if

could

have

a copy

of it.

THE WITNESS:

would

glad

check to see

when it would

able. I’m

sure it’s going

to be out

and published and

read

by a

wide audience before

this hearing

is over.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

After.

But you

under estimate me.

MS. DEXTER:

Can I ask one follow-up

before

you

move on

the next

topic.

Have

you

studied other rivers for toxic

sediments

in them and observed what the fish

populations are like in those rivers? Do

you

have any examples of that?

THE WITNESS:

Yes, I’d

say

Raritan

Bay, there were highly

toxic

sediments

there. I’m trying

think of some other

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Page 130

Moving on

22.

What

type

habitat does

the white sucker need in order

spawn successfully

in the waterway?

Usually gravely areas

the lower

end

of pools are sort of a traditional

place

that

they

spawn.

To what extent is that habitat

present

in the upper Dresden Island pool as

defined

in this proceeding obviously from

the

1-55

bridge up to

the northern boundary of

the

pool?

Again, I

would assume there’s

habitat on

the --

No, Dr.

Thomas, I don’t want

you to

assume.

I’m

asking

you, do you

know what

type

habitat, whether and

what extent

there is

that

type

of habitat in

the upper Dresden Island

pool?

If you don’t

know, that’s fine.

Yes, it is there, that

kind of

habitat.

Where in the upper Dresden?

In the tail water

area.

other place other than the tail

water?

I wouldn’t

know for sure.

Page 131

What type

of habitat

does

the

logperch

need in

order to

spawn successfully in

the

waterway?

Let

me go

back

one other point in

the white sucker, if I may. I believe in some of

the EA collections that was in the

top

-- young of

the year were in the top ten species

that they

collected

in the pool,

least in one year of

data. So

that would sort of indicate that there’s

probably spawning other places in the pool besides

just

the tail water area.

That’s sufficient

data

for

you

which

make that conclusion?

Well, my conclusion was that

-- my

judgment was that if it’s that common in their

collection, that there were probably other areas,

but

it could have been all the spawning coming

from the tail water area. I don’t know for sure.

I’m just

trying

to -- with

all

due

respect, Dr. Thomas, I’m trying

understand

when

it is

you

need

data

in order

draw

conclusion

and when

it is you don’t?

You always could

use

some kind of

data.

Page

132

What

type

of habitat does the

logperch need in order

spawn successfully

waterway?

Usually clear, weedy,

sandy areas.

It will spawn in

riffles,

but

it will also spawn

along shore

lines and lakes. Could

actually

habitat for them

spawn in, in

the

Dresden

Island pooi, than possibly even the

white

sucker.

And, again, do you

know

what

extent that

type

of habitat is

present in the

upper

Dresden Island pool?

just

know from some

of the things

I’ve read that

there are sandy bottom areas in

places. I don’t know -- I couldn’t

tell

you how

many acres or foot of shore

line or whatever.

you

know whether there’s

sufficient amount

support

logperch population

in the upper Dresden Island pool?

The

data

seemed

indicate that

there’s not much of

logperch population

the

pool right

now.

In other

words, there’s not --

whereas I mentioned white sucker being in the

top

ten list, I actually have the data to go

back

and

look.

But just of f the top

of my head, I

Page 133

don’t think there were that many logperch

captured.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Her

question was

not

what’s there now

but

what would their

habitat support.

BY MS. FRANZETTI:

you

think -- in other words,

looking at

the logperch

numbers

you’ve looked

at,

do you

think

based

on your knowledge of this

type

of habitat being present, there should

them? And, again, if

you

haven’t made that

analysis,

it’s fine,

tell

you don’t

know.

But

you do,

I would like

know.

Well, there’s a number of factors

that

into that. I’m trying

think of the

best

way

answer that. I would think there

should be -- they should be able to

reasonably

well in that pool.

Why is that?

Because

think

there is,

from

what

I’ve read, it

does

seem

to be

the habitats

available that they could spawn in and carry

out

their life history.

And when

you say

they should

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Page

135

Okay, so I understand

you

correctly.

that’s the case, you are not sure how many

more could really

there?

That’s correct.

Moving on

question 24,

do you

agree with the EA fish studies’ conclusions

that

the

fish

community in the upper Illinois waterway

is highly stressed and

habitat limiting?

I actually could

not

find

in their

report the

use

of the term highly

stressed system.

did

see

in Mr. Siegert’s testimony

a discussion

of habitat, what he

considered habitat

limitations,

but

maybe somebody could point

that

out to

me. I

just didn’t

see.

I looked through

the report actually looking for that term “highly

stressed” and I did not

see

that.

Okay, let’s take it apart and then

state

it. Why don’t we

just

narrow

it to, do

you

agree

with the EA fish studies conclusions

that

the fish community in

the upper Illinois waterway

is habitat limited?

Well, I mean, there are

lot-of

other stresses

that were talked

about

in addition

to habitat.

Page 136

Just

asking if

you

agree with their

conclusion

that the UIW is habitat limited?

To the degree that the most

impounded bodies of water are habitat limited, I

would agree with it.

Moving on to

25,

do you

agree with

fish studies’ conclusion, that diversity in

this

system was dependent on species adapted

contaminated conditions and that because

these

inherent limitations in the

ichthyoplankton

community

was not likely

change in the UIW for

the

foreseeable future?

One, I

did not find that conclusion

the EA ichthyoplankton report.

Okay.

And I don’t think species can

adapt

contaminated conditions. So I don’t agree with

that phrase.

You don’t agree that species can

adapt to

contaminated conditions?

That’s correct.

What’s that

based

on?

Based on

lot of years of studying

contaminant effects,

the

literature, on

Page

137

contamination. You can measure the

mortality of

species

levels of contaminants,

but

donTt

think it’s

matter of species adapting

contaminants. Even when we did, years

ago

when

did avoidance studies,

you

could

get

fish

to be

attracted to or

avoid

high temperatures and they

may or may not move in and

out

of low DO or low

dissolved oxygen values,

but

you put

copper

the water or some other contaminant, they

not

seem

respond. They either

get

killed,

but

they

are not adapting

it. They are

not

responding

it. If

you

have

gradient of chemicals, for

instance. So maybe with further thought I would

‘4

think of something that’s been an adaptation

contaminant,

but

generally I would

say

organisms

are not

adapting to a chemical contaminant

the

water.

All right. With respect

to --

strike

that.

I know

you

said

you

didn’t

find

this conclusion in the EA fish studies that

you

reviewed.

Let me

ask

you to assume that it was

their conclusion that

because

of contaminated

conditions in the UIW, that the ichthyoplankton

Page 138

community

was not likely

change in the

foreseeable

future. Would you agree

with that

conclusion?

MS. WILLIAMS:

this

point I want

clarification

for the record of the

use

the term UIW, the definition of the term

UIW.

MS. FRANZETTI:

I’ll narrow it. I

think the way it

was

used

in the reports was

little broader

than this,

but

for purposes

of this question, we’ll

from the Chicago

Sanitary & Ship Canal

down

the 1-55

bridge?

THE WITNESS:

I’m sorry,

can

you

repeat the

question?

MS. FRANZETTI:

Let me try and

rephrase it.

BY MS. FRANZETTI:

I’m going

ask

you to

assume,

because you

said

you

didn’t

find this conclusion

in the report --

Yes, that’s correct.

All right. So I

want

to just

lay

out --

Page 139

Assume that

they did.

-- lay

out the question for

you

and

ask you

you

agree with

it. So with respect

the

conclusion that

because of contaminated

conditions in the UIW

I’ve

just

defined

creating inherent limitations in the

ichthyoplankton community,

do you

agree that it

not

likely

change in the

foreseeable future?

Well --

And

you

may not have an opinion

this?

have

an opinion. I don’t

‘3

really think the chemicals in the bottom are

‘4

limiting

the

ichthyoplankton.

‘5

Why is that?

Well, you’ve

got a

number of nest

builders out there, various sun fish species,

large mouth

bass,

their population. They

are

doing

well in that pool

we find down river.

they are

at least finding areas of carrying

out

their lifecycles and producing

young

that

are

equivalent

other impounded parts of the

Illinois River, for

example. On the other hand

there may

-- I mean,

wouldn’t surprise

me if

Page 140

chemical contamination is a

stressor on some fish

along

with other stressors that have been

identified

on the system.

it could well

be,

especially

if there were hot

spots

contamination

that were identified, that removing

some of those or burying them or

whatever, making

them less

available

fish population could lead

reduction in that stressor, and whatever

response might come from that

the aquatic

community.

Moving

26, in your testimony

you

indicate that, “These waterways could support

tolerant or intermediately

tolerant

species.”

That’s

Section

fifth

page,

second paragraph.

And indicate further that this

conclusion

is based

on your personal

knowledge of the CAWS.

Please

explain what

personal knowledge

you

are referring

to?

MR. ETTINGER:

Did your question

say

CAWS?

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Yes, because that’s

what I

believezhe

referenced in this part of

testimony.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Okay, now we are

Page 141

talking

about

the

whole water

body,

not

just

the upper Dresden Pool.

THE WITNESS: That

I believe pretty

well

came from the fisheries report,

the

data in the fisheries’ report that was

collected

by the district, and that is in

the record. And I

think that may have been

one of their -- I mean, their

data

really

showed that over the years there has

been

positive response from the fish

population

in many parts of

the Chicago area waterway.

BY MS. FRANZETTI:

And

what about -- can

you just

elaborate in terms of your personal

knowledge is,

having

gone through the district’s fish

data,

correct?

Yeah. I mean

-- right.

Okay. And

based

on that

data, you

have drawn the conclusion

that these waterways

can

support tolerant or intermediately tolerant

species, correct?

Some

portions

of the waterways,

yes.

Which portions?

Particularly those portions

Page 142

designated as

waterway A, the A category. There’s

and B waters. Those designated A, I think have

some that might

be.

Immediately tolerant is not

the term that’s being used here. There’s tolerant

and -- I get sort of mixed up in the different

terminology.

Were

you

trying

mirror the

terminology that’s being

used

in the proposed

resolution?

At that

point I

wasn’t familiar

with

the terms that were being

used.

I don’t know I want to take the

time, but

it might have been moderately tolerant.

MS. FRANZETTI:

Of f the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

BY MS. FRANZETTI:

Dr. Thomas, maybe let me just ask

you directly,

what did

you

mean

intermediately

tolerant, and can

you

explain that

little more?

think

that was

like small mouth

bass

or white sucker, possibly yellow perch.

Moving on

27.

You

used

the

phrase in your testimony,

lower Dresden Pool.

please identify the boundaries of the area that

Page

143

you

are referring

to at the bottom of

page

your testimony where

you reference “lower Dresden

Pool, and particularly

is that

-- does

that

include any portion of

the pool that is below

south

the 1-55 bridge?

Yes, that needs

-- I probably

meant either the lower

Des Plaines River,

but more

specifically the upper Dresden.

It should

be the

upper Dresden Pool, rather than

the lower.

That’s

correction that should

made

correction

in my testimony.

It should

the upper

Dresden

Pool.

I’m trying not

talk over

you,

but

I’m never sure when

you are done. For the

court

reporter’s sake, I apologize.

So there

you

are intending

refer

the upper

Dresden Island pool

the

Agency has defined its boundaries

in this

rulemaking,

correct?

Yes, that’s

correct.

Dr. Thomas, I did have

one more

follow-up

question on this issue of tolerant,

intermediately tolerant

species. My question is,

is that

the fish community that -- strike

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Page 147

species to raise. T

Its fairly

hearty. But

protecting it

isnht

going

to necessarily protect

variety of other species in the

system that are a

little

more sensitive. So I think trying

to pick

range of

species that sort of have

spectrum

tolerances, if

you will, temperature has been the

primary way of looking

that,

but

I said, it

could relate

other things, is

way

trying

assure

whatever standard

you

are setting can

protective

of that community. And if

you

want

conservative

about

it, then

you try

pick

things

on the more sensitive end

make sure

you

are protecting all of

the system, not

just

the

more tolerant points.

Okay.

Moving

question 29.

page

5 of your testimony in

the last paragraph

Section 2,

you

reference that in the EA 1994

ichthyoplankton

investigation, which is

attachment

LL in this proceeding, that roughly

22,000 larval,

young

of year fish were collected. Do

you agree

that the EA 1994

investigation also

stated

that

only six species or taxa

accounted for 86 percent

of those

individuals collected?

Yes.

And I think that’s

number

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Page 149

or not, is another matter. Also, the blunt nose

minnows, which is another common fish in the

system, lays eggs under rocks or hard substrate.

It also will fan the eggs with its tail in moving

water past the eggs to provide more oxygen, and

obviously

sun fish

eggs which now --

Dr. Thomas, can

I just

interrupt

you

there and

say,

and

you

don’t consider their

fanning of the

eggs

an adaptation

referenced in

this question?

Well, it is

adaptation.

They’ve

been doing it for -- I don’t know how far

back

you

have

to go.

That’s

part of their life history

strategy.

‘5

My point being, if there’s low DO

levels in the water,

those two fishes, unlike

‘7

others, ability

fan their

eggs

is an

adaptation

deal with

in part -- in part it helps them

deal

with the low dissolved oxygen levels in

the water,

correct?

Well,

adaptation probably

goes

way

back

their history

the

fact

that

sometimes

organics

and bottom sediments can lower the

dissolved oxygen in

those sediments, and fanning

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120:14

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Page 160

Commission

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121:23 122:11

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124:14 126:2

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continuously

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conclusion 70:9

constantly 43:21

19:18 20:7

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cyanid 35:24

Page 161

cycle 66:18

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debris 82:20

96:13

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53:15

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determined

53:17,24

54:2

decision 5:21

depth 18:23

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decrease24:6

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Des

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Page

171

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Page 172

66:16,18

67:5

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148:19

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54:7,21 55:20

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P 2:1,1

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33:17 62:13

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44:15

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16:12 17:1

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Page

173

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22:20,22

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101:6

121:21

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44:6,12

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77:19

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93:17

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101:22

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60:3

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Procedures

106:20

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73:15

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27:13

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44:23

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Page 174

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PROTECTION

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124:10

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124:4

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30:13 153:7

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30:1,24 33:14

39:2

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42:7

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140:19 143:22

143:23 144:6

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questions 5:4,8

5: 10, 14,17,18

6:13 7:17,24

8:1,3,5 10:9

50:2,3

67:10

92:23 95:17,21

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66:7 69:8 70:7

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Rankin 34:10

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Rankin’s 70:23

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read 5:2 25:6

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82:16

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121:22 122:8

123:10 128:12

132:13 133:21

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realize 99:4

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1:7,8,17

32:17

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59:20 64:12

65:12 66:6,20

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133:17 134:1

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14:20

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recent 10:3,5

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Reclamation

23:22

recognizing

108:9

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93:6

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101:18

record 5:18,20

5:24 13:19

27:7,22

69:19

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75:1,7,2 1

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100:15

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109:18 140:8

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83:19

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Page 175

101:17 111:13

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54:8,23

Regulatory

56:12

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relatively 91:1

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24:13 69:20

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102:23 104:11

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55:13 56:21

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45:21

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129: 12

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removing 140:5

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138:17

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report 1: 14

13:24 14:3

16:17,22 17:9

26:23 27:9,22

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76:11

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110:7 120:19

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49:10 56:10

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14,

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75:22 85:21

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94:14

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112:13 117:7

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146: 14

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109:2 144:18

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reproduce 83:4

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107:15

require 83:2

requirements

63:5

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resolution 142:9

Resources 41:1

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11:11 20:15

22:19 33:22

56:8 58:4

61:19 63:19

70:6 74:5 97:8

104:16 108:12

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131:20

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52:15 137:11

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100:16 140:9

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responsibilities

39:6

rest 23:21 81:10

restate 82:9

restoration

19:24 41:23

restricted 16:9

result 48: 15

91:17 100:3

resulted 99:23

resulting 42:10

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results 29:14

113:7 125:7

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65:7,14,18

65:20 66:1,2

67:22,23 68:1

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68:18 73:5,5,6

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14:10 18:9,12

20:10

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33:21

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44:4 45:7,10

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104:19 115:1

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ripple 12:23

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RIS 109:1,9

145:11,13,23

146 :2,5, 11

river

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4:7

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25:24 26:5

27:12 30:20

34:17 35:21,23

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38:16 39:16

40:15,22 41:2

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66:16

67:3

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78:16,17,20

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100:21 101:1

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117:4 118:18

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32:15,24 33:20

37:14 38:6

41:4 64:14

65:13 66:6 —

79:3,11 98:13

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116:7,9

119:4 128:18

128:20

roads 11:4

Page 176

rock 25:2 39:16

80:3 90:4

150:18

rocks

84:6

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149:3

role 25:8 39:18

roles 25:10

room 113:13

Room-9-40 1:17

roughly 147:19

round 10:23,24

rounding 103:5

row 6:4,12 57:5

R08-94:9

rubble 90:14

rule 26:9

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10:18

143:19

run 54:2

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Sag 9:11 153:12

sake 143:15

same 21:20,24

36:20 48:19

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35:2,2 117:20

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49:3,3,8

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96:14 97:4

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Sanitary 8:12

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88:18,24 89:11

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109:5 111:3

114:17 118:23

118:24 122:11

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scale 34:11,13

scan

28:17

Science

41:22

42:2

scientific 107:23

Scientist 2:6

scientists 153 :22

score 62:14

63:21 70:21

71:2,23 76:24

77:15 78:19

scored

70:17

72:21

115:9

scores 63:8,11

64:1,2,8,13,17

65:4 69:14

70:7,13 71:9

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73 :2,10,13, 14

74:7,12,15

77:11 78:15,17

78:18 115:8

screens 57:18

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second

55:5

62:12 64:12

140: 14

section 62:12

63:7 65:16,16

72:11 102:20

140:14 147:17

sediment 20:15

20:20 22:4

29:11 49:2

96:18,20 115:5

115:21 116:22

117:15,20

118:1 119:17

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121:9,11 122:2

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124: 14,15

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96:10 115:14

115:17 116:1,4

116:6 118:22

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19:20,21

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22:3

24:10 29:15

49:7

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100:10 115:8

115:11 117:22

118:8 119:23

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127:4

128:18

128:23 129:3

148:13 149:23

149:24 150:15

150:20 151:2

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16:7 19:1

28:15 30:19

44:20

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90:21

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97:2 98:3,7

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153:7

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sense 150:3

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104:13 108:13

108:24 109:6,7

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12:24 32:10

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150:10

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88: 12, 14,19,24

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ships 61:8

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57:12 58:4,11

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61:19 62:5

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Page 177

shown 99:4

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112:21

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Shundar 2:7

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side 6:3

47:23

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Sided 68:3

Siegert 94:12

Siegert’s 135:11

Sierra 2:20

significance

67:17 86:18

significant

56:19 57:4

60:2,9,14 71:4

96:18 110:12

110:15

119:1

153

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116:6

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22:22

38:14 47:3

48:3

94:11,13

121:12 122:16

152:7

simple

48:23

since 9:20 19:7

20:7 24:19

25:9 76:6

100:22 107:18

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sinuous 37:15

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six 36:19 65:9

147:22 148:8

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size 13:15 24:4,6

30:13

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121:9

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sluggish 83:14

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84:18 91:9

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84:14

Sobaski 27:15

27:18

some 9:5,7 10:9

10:22,24 11:2

11: 12,18,20

12:1,23 13:13

14:19,22

15:21

16:13 19:7,18

20:2 21:24

22:1,2,10,24

24:10 25:2,21

26:2,7,8 29:1

30:3 31:10,15

31: 15,19,19,24

32:3,8,9,14,23

34:18,23,23

36:1,19 37:3,4

38:20,22 40:7

41:15 42:23

43:6,8,23,23

44:1 45:20

46:11,15 47:11

47: 13,15,21

48 :6,9,9,12,15

49:15 50:3,4

50:15 53:20

56:12 57:2,3

58:24 59:3

60:4 61:5,7,10

61:10 63:14

64:22 68:1

69:20 71:15,20

72:18 73:2,10

73:12

79:4,4

79:21 80:5,8

80:11 81:19

82:21 83:2,9

83:10,11,14

84:17,20 85:8

85:8,9,15,21

85:24 90:5

93:8,8,13

94:17,23 95:5

95:24

97:3,5

98:1,5 99:5,12

99:21,21 100:8

100:11,11,15

101:20 103:6

104:20 106:14

108:1,4,5

110:1,2,5,6,9,9

110:22 111:1

111:20 112:6

112:12,14

113:21 115:24

115:24 116:2,5

116:6,13,17,18

117:11 118:11

118:

12,13

119:23,23

120:3,4,4,8,9

120:11 121:2,7

121:19 123:1,3

123:15,15,23

124:18 125:10

125:15,16

126:16,20

127:2 128:7,24

129:10,13

1:5,23

132:12 134:10

137:9

140:1,6

141:22 142:3

145:20

146:21

150:22

151:17

152:2,8, 12, 12

152:23 153:10

153:15,17

somebody

135: 13

someone 13:20

44:21 50:13

66:8

77:21

86:5

96:24

123:8 148:20

153:1

someone’s 113:6

something 21:19

38:16

46:24

47:3,6 53:2

61:14 76:15

78:13 87:1

94:22 96:15

97:5

104:22

137:14 148:2

150:15

sometimes 20:24

21:3,6,11

37:17,18 40:5

48:11 67:15

129:19 134:15

149:22

somewhat 38:13

69:20 77:2

91:2 108:2

125:6

somewhere

81:10

101:4

111:11

113:1,5

126: 13

sorry 13:12

14:14 17:18

29:8,19,24

31:13 38:7

49:19 76:20

77:7,13 88:20

92:11 95:14

111:9 128:3

138:14 150:8

sort 37:16 40:5

42:5 47:20

51:16 66:1

79:23 81:11

99:3

109:21

113:8 118:19

119:24 130:5

131:9 142:5

147:5

sounds 77:20

source 109:16

121:7

sources 103:10

south 24:18 61:8

143:5

Southern 41:13

121:2 123:23

126:5,6

spawn 37:2

43:24 83:12

130:3,6 13 1:2

132:2,5,5,7

133 :22

spawning

7:23

43:7 44:1

84:8

84:19

131:10

131: 17

speak 5:15

122:5,7

speaking 5:16

101: 13

species 26:2,4

33:19 34:15

35:18,20

46:10

49:15 51:15

53:9 57:14

60:15

63:3

64:19 67:4

71:4 79:7,20

80:6,8,8,11

82:24

83:1,14

84:15,15

85:15

87:10,15

88:2

88:8 93 :5,13

93:19,22

94:5

96:5,6 97:11

98:1,3,6

100:11 101:16

102:20,24

104:5,14 105:2

108: 13,20,22

108:24 109:2,4

110:22 112:6

114:19 115:1

120:9,11

131:7

13 6: 8,

16,

137:2,3

139:17

140:13 141:21

143:23

144:4

— 144:11,18,18

z144:22 145:9

145:14 146:4,8

146:9,21 147:1

147:3,5,22

148:5,8 150:10

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152:2,3

83:1398:12

storage42:23

33:14,15,18,19

83:497:17

specific 12:2

115:15 116:7

43:1,11 44:24

33:22,2434:1

130:3 131:2

23:1 34:15

116:10 118:10

45:19

34:3,4,19,20

132:2

71:22 90:19

135:18

155:1

storm 153:17

35:15,19 36:18 suckerl0l:24

95:15

statedl47:21

straight7:16

39:9,12,14,14

102:19103:1,8

specifically9:6

statement62:11

91:1

39:15,16,17

104:10,12,17

9:15,2283:20

62:1771:8

stranded37:4

40:3,653:8,11

106:2108:12

108:10

109:13

79:24

89:9

strange5l:16

53:14 54:7,9

111:8 114:22

143:8

111:14114:16 strategyl49:14

54:2156:17

130:2131:5

specifics9o:1

151:3

150:5

59:560:476:5

132:8,22

spectrum

statements

stream65:9,10

76:8 100:18

142:21

146:15,15

30:17 89:17

65:19 67:21

119:23 126:22

suckers3l:24

147:5

95:24 113:12

126:15

129:3 134:2

32:12

33:5

speculatesl:1

118:7

stress 120:9

135:6,19 136:7

112:2

113:16

speculation

states

96:3

stressed 135:8

137:5,21

sudden

57:10

21:15

statingl23:12

135:10,16

studyll:2424:1

101:6,8

spell 27:17

station

25:21,23

stresses

100:6

26:19,21,23

sufficient 94:4

spendll:2

53:1355:20

100:14135:23

27:829:2,6

111:16131:12

spending32:4

56:4,8,18

152:9,12

36:950:13,18

132:17

spent

36:15

69:23 73:4

stressor 110:12

52:7

53:5

56:2

suggest 76:3

spillway 12:11

126:12

120:10 140:1,8

56:7

69:12

suitability96:6

13:4 15:15

stations 25:22

stressors 140:2

94:10

113:6

suitable

84:19

16:5

61:20 62:2

152:21

153:2,8

117:14,19

suite2:153:3