ORiGiWAL:

TRANSCRIPT

PROCEEDINGS

held in

the

above-entitled

cause

before

Hearing

Officer

Marie

Tipsord,

taken

before

Sharon

Berkery,

CSR,

160 North

LaSalle

Street,

Room

9-031,

Chicago,

Illinois,

the

14th

day of

August,

A.D.,

2009

commencing

1:40

p.m.

THE

MATTER

OF:

WATER

QUALITY

STANDARDS

AND

EFFLUENT

LIMITATIONS

FOR

THE

CHICAGO

AREA

WATERWAY

SYSTEM

AND

THE

LOWER

DES PLAINES

RIVER;

PROPOSED

AMENDMENTS

TO 35 ILL.

ADM.

CODE

PARTS

301,

302,

303

AND

304.

Page

OFFICE

AVG

272009

STATE

ILJJNOI

Pollution

Control

No.

08-9

Page

APPEARANCES:

ILLINOIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD

Ms. Marie Tipsord, Hearing

Officer

Mr.

G. Tanner Girard, Acting Chairman

Mr. Shundar Lin,

Board Member

Ms. Alisa Liu,

Environmental Scientist

ILLINOIS ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION

AGENCY

Ms. Stefanie Diers

Ms. Deborah Williams

ENVIRONMENTAL LAW AND

POLICY CENTER,

33 East Wacker Drive

Suite 1300

Chicago, Illinois

60601

312-795-3707

MR. ALBERT F.

ETTINGER,

MS. JESSICA A. DEXTER,

appeared on behalf of ELPC,

Prairie

Rivers

Network, and

Sierra Club;

Page

APPEARANCES

(cont’d.):

BARNES

THORNBERG,

LLP,

One North

Wacker Drive

Suite 4400

Chicago, Illinois

60606

312-357-1313

MR. FREDRIC

ANDES,

appeared

on behalf of

the Metropolitan

Water

Reclamation District

of Greater

Chicago.

REPORTED BY:

SHARON BERKERY,

C.S.R.

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Page

I’m

sorry.

that’s

trip

the

recent

you

want

to..

Yeah,

mean,

THE

COURT

REPORTER:

Please

don’t

talk

top

each

other.

MR.

ANDES:

We’ve

been

doing

that

for

Okay.

think

understand

this

trip,

understand

that

there

have

not

been

any

studies.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Fine.

MR.

ANDES:

Thank

you

That’s

correct

Okay.

Question

No.

MR.

ETTINGER:

his

study,

maybe

the

trip

also

study.

THE

WITNESS:

MR.

ANDES:

You

didn’t

study,

but

MR.

ETTINGER:

don’t

either.

That’s

why

was

just

saying,

you’re

looking

for

formal

studies,

think

you’ve

got

your

answer.

MR.

ANDES:

Okay.

just

wanted

clarify

years.

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MS.

TIPSORD:

really

need

know

that.

Because

I thought

at first

it was

exhibit,

itTs

obviously not.

was

attached

the testimony

MS. DEXTER:

It’s from the

record.

MS. TIPSORD:

Right.

But, I

mean

was attached

the

testimony

of one of

the

distant witnesses.

MR. ANDES:

think

so.

MS. TIPSORD:

And

I looked back

through the

Agency’s

stuff and

I’m not

seeing

there either.

MR.

ETTINGER:

You can

always mark

again.

MS.

TIPSORD:

Can

you give me

the

title again?

THE WITNESS:

It’s called

the Study

the

Fisheries

Resource and

Water Quality

the Chicago

Waterway

System 1974

through

1996.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

Does

it have an

MWRD

number?

THE

WITNESS:

It’s

Report

No.

98-10.

MS.

DEXTER:

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Page 84

electrofishing,

it could turn

out

that

these waters

are far healthier

than we thought?

It might

have a higher index of

biotic

integrity.

Which means they

are healthier? Fish

communities are really healthier

than we thought?

That

possibility.

MR. ANDES:

Thank

you.

MS. TIPSORD:

Anything else for

Dr. Thomas?

Thank

you so

much for

joining

us.

Everyone

have

great weekend.

I’ll

see

you

October 5th for Laura

Barghusen,

Cheryl Adelmann,

and Victor Crivello.

Thank

you,

all.

We are

adjourned.

(WHICH WERE ALL

THE MATTERS

HEARD IN THE ABOVE-ENTITLED

CAUSE

THIS DATE.)

Page

STATE

ILLINOIS)

)

SS:

COUNTY

COOK

SHARON

BERKERY,

Certified

Shorthand

Reporter

of the

State

of Illinois,

hereby

certify

that

reported

in shorthand

the proceedings

had

the

hearing

aforesaid,

and

that

the

foregoing

true,

complete

and

correct

transcript

the

proceedings

said hearing

appears

from

stenographic

notes

taken and

transcribed under

personal

direction.

IN WITNESS

WHEREOF,

do hereunto

set

hand at

Chicago,

Illinois,

this

25th

day

August,

2009.

Certified

Shorthand

Reporter

C.S.R.

Certificate

No.

84-4327.

Page

ability

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55:23

56:17,19

27:7,13,18

9:8

81:17,22

35:7 49:18

56:21

57:6,8,9

28:15

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blocks 24:7

Cal-Sag

18:20

57:15 67:23

aware

16:6,22

become 36:16

Board

2:3,6

19:8

20:12

68:2,6

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18:14 19:15

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68:1

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6:11,17

25:8,23

33:21

75:21

76:9,10

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8:1618:11

44:2447:10

76:14,2282:4

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64:15

34:7

62:20

20:15

25:7,9

49:23 50:3

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begin28:5

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53:1469:9,10

CAWS-A73:13

79:11,13

behalf 2:21

3:9

bodies

21:14,17

69:21

70:24

CENTER

2:14

A.D1:15

being9:18

10:9

28:1244:12,13

came77:22

centigrade32:5

11:1639:21

66:1582:5

78:12

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canal8:149:6

CEPA46:9,22

B 13:20

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47:11 49:15,20

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16:5

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8:23

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capacity26:21

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49:8

50:18

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captured

19:4

17:21

50:20

52:6 55:17

65:271:1

75:8

18:8,11

20:14

care50:1468:14

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56:6

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12:7

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13:2

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36:11 40:16,24

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67:19

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83:22

backwater

benefit

49:16

83:14

70:9

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Certificate

3:24

55:21

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8:16

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19:5

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85:5

barge8:1624:5

10:1,20

17:8

20:10 33:7

36:16

80:24

Chairman2:5

63:23

catch3l:1,10

Page 88

change

12:12

73:15 74:17

40:6 46:17

confounding

23:24

24:19

13:10,21 60:15

75:9

55:6 67:4

83:15

32:23 34:9

changes

12:9,16

clarifying

76:12

77:16 81:6

confusion 73:23

36:18 56:3

14:2 15:11

clay8:12

comparelo:1,12

conjunction

61:1764:14

30:1831:20

clean20:2021:3

10:13,1930:1

11:1712:4

65:1874:17

37:17

60:19

21:16 22:5,18

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connection

85:8

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67:14 75:14

correctly

69:10

changing 14:1

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10:16 82:10

consider23:6

COUNTY85:3

46:6

73:16 76:17,18

compilation 4:4

78:21 83:6

couple 4:15,23

channel

46:14

76:20

4:18

consideration

34:24

69:3

49:22,2450:3

clearly4o:3

complete85:8

81:18

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51:21

53:14

close 22:18

completion

considered

42:3

course 29:18

54:21

57:16,17

64:24

61:18,19

54:24,24

55:1

55:23 67:13

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closer 22:24

complex

11:21

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court

7:16

63:9

channels 16:8

closest

35:6

63:19

considering

83:2 cover 54:20

16:19,22 25:2

Club

2:22

component

65:7 constant 30:17

covered 34:16

25:3

CODE 1:8

composition

constituted 6:17

71:24

character

50:22

collected

4:20

51:3,10,12

contact 73:12,15 covers

14:24

51:3

20:10

22:1

concentrations

contaminants

crawling

54:1

characteristics

38:20,22

39:12

35:2

33:16

36:11

creation72:5,10

17:8 23:8,14

40:3 41:9,9

concept

24:17

contaminated

Creek

9:8

77:12

42:1049:19,23

24:19,2031:22

35:5

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characterize

70:8

3 1:23 81:1

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74:5,20

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69:21

70:20

collecting

31:2

concern 69:19

50:23

51:4

75:18

83:3

characterizing

collection

41:8

69:20

context

73:17

Crivello

84:14

11:18

collections

50:3

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18:4

continue

15:14

cross-examina...

chart5:12

77:22

78:12

conclude20:22

22:17

59:17,23

82:2

check 49:5

combination

40:2 44:12

continued

60:11 CSR 1:14

checking

75:4

28:2

concluding

60:19 61:15

current45:6

chemical

77:13

come

42:22

39:11

continuing 60:1

56:15 57:23

77:23

78:13

52:16

conclusion

16:3

continuous

18:2

66:19

82:7,11

chemicals

35:17

comes 19:21

42:14

50:18,19

56:13

82:12,16

chemistry 32:13

20:1 49:5

conclusions

15:1 contrary 40:10

curve

60:3

78:18

coming 10:17

21:1 23:23

contributing

cut 67:18

Cheryl84:14

25:1240:17

38:641:5

37:9,12

C.S.R3:23

Chesapeake

42:14

52:18

68:24

contribution

85:19

8:14 9:6

55:17

67:3

condition23:1

63:21

Chicago 1:5,15

82:9

79:15

CONTROL2:3

2:17 3:6,11

commencing

conditions 28:16

cont’d

3:1

Damn

53:19

14:20,23 47:22

1:16

28:21,22 45:7

COOK 85:3

70:21

48:19

67:12

common 8:3

56:15 57:24,24 cool4O:22

data4:5,22

73:3

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communities

58:23

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40:19

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19:2,13

chlorination

73:1 84:6

63:16

29:6

20:9,11,12

45:16

community

conducting

copper 36:1,3

21:11,24 23:16

citation24:23

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64:16

Corp68:8

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7:1

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30:6

31:10

clarify6:157:15

30:17,1931:20

65:14

14:520:16

32:9,13,15,15

32:20,22

33:3

Page

33 :5,15,20

34:2,3,6,10,12

34: 13,

14,

16,2 1

35:1

40:10,14

40:17,21

41:2

41:5,7,8,12,22

42:3,6,9,11,13

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46:8

47:8

50:23

56:14

57:23

58:16,18

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78:11,11,12

80:13,21

81:17

81:20

82:5,11

83:2

date

23:21

84:18

DAVID

5:22

day

1:15

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83 :3,12

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2:12

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8:9

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31:

12,24

32:6

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12:6

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13:11

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12:11

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41:4

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21:15

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15:18,22

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30:11

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Delaware

8:5,8

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8:17

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28:3

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32:9

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80:20

density

8:14

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29:18

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61:1

depression

59:2

depth

31:15

Des 1:6

65:15

73:19

describe

20:2

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69:11

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17:18

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10:13

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10:22

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22:2

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8:15

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50:2

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29:20

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58:19

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9:23

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56:14

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74:4,19

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76:4

DEXTER

2:20

48:5,24

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73:24

79:21

80:4 81:12,15

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2:11

77:2

77:3 78:5

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39:4

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56:23

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17:7

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10:14

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24:21

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36:22

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27:24

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85:11

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81:22

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28:4

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36:5

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75:6

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62:20

70:2

81:21

discussing

11:9

75:20

dissolved

46:16

63:17

74:5

75:15,18

76:4

76:13

distances

70:13

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48:8

District

3: 10

42:10

43:1

56:14 59:7

64:17

75:23

District’s

15:12

diverse

20:23

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17:21

23:4

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5:9

5:17

15:20

72:22

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52:23

documents

13:3

doing

4:12

7:18

9:23

10:24

14:9

19:16

31:11

39:22

52:7 55:20

70:5

71:5,20

80:10

done

12:13,15

13:13

23:13,20

25:8

45:15,19

47:1

64:21

72:17 75:6

79:2

80:14,23

doubling

68:9

down

8:8

14:13

17:3

32:6

41:7

45:9

56:11

59:9

61:5

71:

10,15

downstream

21:8 65:20,21

66:22

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5:7,22

6:5

38:8 51:11

64:15

74:15

75:14

77:20

84:10

drainage

79:3

draw

16:3

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4:17,22

5:13

17:8,10

18:4

20:19

22:24

26:19

32:23

33:2

37:5 38:21

40:14

57:6

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drift

52:12

drifting

52:14

52:15

Drive

2:15

3:4

due

15:15

27:23

73:1

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during

26:20

27:8,16

28:13

30:3,4

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49:21

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30:15

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each

7:17

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61:12

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earlier

4:6

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29:23

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80:22

early

6:12

25:9

29:19

41:20

43:17

44:13,16

45:11,16

56:15

56:18,20

58:1

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67:7

East

2:15

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19:2

effect 13:22

36:6

37:16 39:19

59:4

63:23

65:13

67:18

effective

66:9,14

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15:21

35:16,17

42:22

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31:14

EFFLUENT

1:4

either

7:10

48:12,24

65:19

66:2

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41:1

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65:14

66:13

68:9

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66:6

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4:14

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31:11

1:13,19

66:6

66:8

81:17,19

82:5,7,17

83:4

83:8,11

84:1

Electroshock

66:11

electroshocking

66:14

eliminated

55:15

ELPC

2:21

elsewhere

82:4

emergent

25:11

25:15

71:11

emergents

26:13

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26:14

end29:21

69:16

80:9

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72:15

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11:12,14

Engineers

68:9

England

9:10

enough

59:3

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13,24

enter

4:24

5:12

entered

49:4

Page

entering 31:1

entire

30:17

33:11,12

environment

77:14

environmental

2:7,10, 14

80:10

envision

55:6

EPA

13:3 77:3

escape

29:14

especially

63:24

69:8

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11:10

11:11,14

establishing

10:22

estimating

70:1

ETTINGER

2:19 4:1,8

5:5

7:4,10,23 14:6

14:12,15

34:19

34:22

38:9,16

48:13

50:12

56:9

60:17

63:8 75:9,13

76:2,9,11,16

76:19

evaluated

8:20

9:2

21:24

evaluation

9:13

21:22

even 16:1 18:21

19:5 35:10,23

44:17

46:4

52:2 54:1

70:8

event

events 15:21

30:2 60:24

61:4

every

19:19

38:21

52:21

62:9

Everyone

84:12

everything 81:2

evidence 19:9

20:6,7

exactly 21:20

47:15 79:17

EXAMINATI...

6:3 77:1

examined

6:1

examiner

38:13

example

31:11

33:20

63:17

70:23 79:5

exceeds 27:12

exceptions

68:7

excuse

12:18

32:24

exhibit

5:14,15

5:18

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47:18 48:3

49:3,4 50:10

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exhibits

4:3

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15:14,22

30:13

53:6,10

56:16

59:16

60:10 61:14,16

61:18,20

expectation 15:5

expected

26:1

68:5

expensive

72:15

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explain 8:2

17:6

22:14

39:2

explained

6:11

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extensive

58:12

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16:6

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extreme 79:5,8

F 2:19

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53:18

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83:13

factor

25:4

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50:24

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51:4

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60:22

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30:15

35:11 38:22

39:12 40:3

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fall 29:19

30:23

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64:13

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30:8,9

37:6

45:21

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Farenheit

32:5

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28:23

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8:3

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54:10,14

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feel 77:13

feeling 16:12

41:3

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69:8

feet

3 1: 14

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few

19:3 53:19

60:11 75:8

77:4

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field 65:14

66:18

fields

66:13

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filamentous

26:10

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46:22

find 17:22

19:16

21:7

30:7 37:8

47:4

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47:8

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19:2

Fine

7:23

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first 6:7 9:1 21:2

31:5 48:2

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73:14

78:16

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9:2,12

9:16 11:3 12:2

12:10

13:1,5

13:13,19

14:3

15:3

16:15

17:16

18:1

19:19

20:21,23

21:5

24:6,10

24:15 25:17,17

27:8,14 28:16

28:22 29:4,5

29:11,13,15,23

30:7,16,18,21

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1:23,24

35:13

36:12,20,24

42:18,22 46:12

47:5 49:17,18

50:2 51:8

53:13 54:7,8

54:16

56:16

58: 13,22,22

59:1,5,6,12

61:22

65:9,16

65:19,22

66:9

66:15,16,17,2

66:21,23 67:2

67:3,6,8,21

68:1,4,14

70:4

70:8,12 71:9

72:5,11,17

73:1,2 79:4

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83:9,10

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42:9 43:3 44:9

46:8 47:8,21

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26:2,6

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50:13

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46:10 61:1

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64:16

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6:2

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78:3,6

81:12

83:19

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77:17

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53:12

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85:7

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36:7 66:22

68:20,24

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42:3

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28:6 67:7

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16:2

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20:11

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31:14

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38:2

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3:8

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54:22

from

4:20

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6:18 8:7

11:2,4

13:15 15:21

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25:23

26:6,14

32:

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36:5 37:3,20

40:1844:23

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48:5

49:10,19 52:16

52:18

53:7

56:14 59:6

60:17,19

61:21

63:21 65:19

66:13,21

67:3

67:18,20,22

75:17

76:15

77:22

78:12

79:2

82:9 85:9

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18:3

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6:1

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44:17

60:6

64:16

81:10

2:5

game

50:2

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31:13

31:19

general

21:7

43:15

51:7

58:11 62:16

Page

generally

29:15

grad

52:6

61:20 65:21

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12:23

29:1735:22

gradientl6:7,11

70:14

horses82:15

15:1522:17

68:7

16:19,21 28:19

happened44:11

hotter40:22

46:4,1647:2

generated

6:23

gravel

25:15

45:6

housekeeping

59:10,23

61:10

gestures

63:7

71:13

happening

45:3

50:15

61:12

63:2

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67:19

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47:5

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35:7,7

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9:7

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66:2

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12:8

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51:22,2352:18

huge8:1043:9

15:2,6,11

78:17,18

17:20 23:4

53:9 58:10

hundred56:7

42:19 59:7

given

25:1

47:11

67:20

80:22,24

hydro

9:10

63:1

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10:10

82:16

having

5:23,24

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10:15

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35:17

37:16

6:21 13:5,9

gol3:22

14:13

growing26:13

head67:19

1B181:23

14:3

15:321:9

16:1,15

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healthier

84:2,5

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43:4 44:1

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69:3

84:6

19:16 20:9

45:12,22

46:7

29:24

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22:13

identification

58:14

59:5,16

47:749:8

83:23

75:11

5:19

59:16,2460:1

50:18

57:22

heard

13:2

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43:22

60:4,6,11

60:21 61:4

68:12

84:17

identify

23:13

61:21

62:21

71:4,20 76:24

habitat

6:8,13

hearing

1:12 2:4

61:11

improvements

77:8

78:15

6:21 8:21,24

38:13

85:7,9

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49:13

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59:21

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69:8

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36:3

trees

26:7

tributaries

9:4

trip

6:11,17,24

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71:6

trips

18:12

true

33:

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try 4:2

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11:1

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83:9

turn

84:1

Twenty-five

49:18

two 10:13,14,20

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14:17

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13:6

45:5

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ultimately

11:10

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uncommon

47:9

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44:

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16:14

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69:13

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24:15

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69:24

undergo

72:4

underneath

40:19

understand

6:16

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understood

38:15

underwater

24:1

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28:

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25:5

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25:3

unique

76:15

units

28:5

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37:4

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28:5

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upper 8:16,17

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upstream

65:20

66:

19,22

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44:2

use 9:14,15,19

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13:20,20

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24:22

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utilize

8:11

utifizing

9:17

utterly

76:15

values

82:20

variables

83:15

variations

82:24

varieties

9:11

Page

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variety

25:10

various

23:9,14

65:8

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vegetation

25:12

25:16 26:1

58:8 71:12,13

verbal

10:12

11:20

versus

4:22

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8:13

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29:17

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Victor 84:14

view 69:13

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visible

18:11

voltage

68:9,14

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walls

53:17

want

4:2,8 7:6

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7:14

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30:4

32:3

Wasnik

34:1,3

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6:23

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76:6

water 1:3

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8:9 11:2,11

12:4

13:4,10

13:21

14:2,22

15:2,6,10,14

15:19 16:24

17:20 20:20

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21:17

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22:18 23:2

26:2,13 27:3

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31:12

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42:21

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51:7

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17:9

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35:7

wave

64:1

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weather 58:24

weeds

36:4

week

52:21

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82:22

weekend

84:12

weeks

53:20

weighing

14:16

weight 77:20

78:10

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9:21 11:16

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weren’t 34:15

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wet

58:24

we’ll

17:4

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5:21

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we’ve

7:18

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85:12

white 38:19

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whole

29:1

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17:11

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2:12

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32:3

wintertime

3 1:16

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63:11 66:2,4

76:21

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80:6

85:12

witnesses

48:8

wondering

24:22 79:19

word

57:12

worded

21:20

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74:12

words

25:14

work 28:2

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8:4,15

52:6

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11:5

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Wow 79:6

writing

27:4

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11:8

36:18 61:17

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yeah 4:10

7:7

10:10

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26:16 27:20

31:23

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65:17

66:7

68:13

74:11

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year

29:16

30:5

30:18,22

38:21

61:6

years 4:20

5:6

7:19 56:7

60:11 61:20

yellow

54:23

Yoda

73:20

York

9:8

young

29:16

zebra

53:24

08-9

1:6

173:18

77:6

1:40 1:16

38:18

11 41:18

12 71:15,21

1373:10

1300 2:16

Page

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14th

1:15

7:19

61:20

73:24

160

1:14

169

49:3

179 49:4

50:10

50:11

47:13

49:13

1930s 55:13

1957

4:14

5:4

1974

14:23

47:23

48:19

1990s

6:12

1994

38:21

1995

49:2 1

1996 14:23

47:23 48:20

49:2

27:3

8:19

17:24

18:1

20:18

26:17

47:24

61:20

2003

27:2

2007

5:4

2009

1:16 85:14

23 68:20,23

25th

85:13

3 8:19

17:4

26:18

17:4

301

1:8

302

1:8

303 1:8

304 1:9

312-357-1313

3:7

312-795-3707

2:18

329

5:14,16,18

21:6

332:15

1:7

32:5

20:17

5th

84:

500

70:6

83:5

60s 45:11

60601

2:17

60606

3:6

7 23:5

70s 45:11

68:21

26:17

74:9

8/14/09

5:19

84-4327

3:24

85:19

32:18

9 32:8

9-031

1:14

90s

25:9

98-10

48:23

50:7

4400

3:5

17:23

32:5