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Page

ILLINOIS

POLLUTION

CONTROL

BOARD

THE

MATTER

OF:

WATER

QUALITY

STANDARDS

AND

)

R08—09

EFFLUENT

LIMITATIONS FOR

THE

)

(Rulemaking

CHICAGO

AREA

WATERWAY

SYSTEM

)

WatCVE

AND

THE

LOWER

DES PLAINES

)

CLERK’S

OFFICE

RIVER:

PROPOSED

AMENDMENTS

Ill.

Adm.

Code

Parts

)

MAY

2009

301,

302,

303

and

304

)

STATE

ILLINOIS

Pollution

Control

Board

REPORT

PROCEEDINGS

held

the

above-entitled

cause

before

Hearing

Officer

Marie

Tipsord,

called

the

Illinois

Pollution

Control

Board,

taken

before

Laura

Mukahirn,

CSR,

notary

public

within

and

for

the

County

of Cook

and

State

Illinois,

the

Thompson

Center,

Chicago,

Illinois,

the

5th

day

of May,

2009,

commencing

the

hour

10:00

a.m.

Page 2

APPEARANCES

MS.

MARIE TIPSORD, Hearing

Officer

MR.

THOMAS JOHNSON, Member

MR. ANAND

RAO,

Member

MS. ALISA LIU, Member

DR. SHUNDAR LIN, Member

appearing on behalf of

the Illinois

Pollution Control Board

ILLINOIS ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION

AGENCY

1021 North Grand Avenue East

P.O. Box

19276

Springfield,

Illinois 62794-9276

(217)782-5544

BY:

MS. DEBORAH WILLIAMS

MS. STEPHANIE DIERS

BARNES & THORNBURG

One North Wacker Drive

Suite 4400

Chicago, Illinois 6606-2833

(312) 357-1313

BY:

MR. FREDRIC P. ANDES

Appearing on behalf of the

Metropolitan

Water Reclamation District

**************************************************

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Page

present Dr.

Marilyn Yates and I have

her

testimony

marked

I believe

it’s

Exhibit 249.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

That

correct. Let’s have her sworn

in before I

mark it.

(Witness sworn.)

DR.

MARILYN YATES,

called as a witness

herein, having been

first duly

sworn,

was examined and testified

follows:

Examination

By Mr. Andes

HEARING OFFICER

TIPSORD: All right.

If there’s no

objection, will mark Dr. Yates’

testimony

Exhibit 249.

Seeing none, it

is Exhibit 249.

And with that,

we’ll begin with

did you

have anything else or should

we begin with

questions?

MS.

ALEXANDER:

We can begin

with

questions.

HEARING OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Mr. Andes?

MR. ANDES:

Good

morning, Dr. Yates.

THE WITNESS:

Good

morning.

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Page 38

different context.

My point was

that the

individuals

who reviewed this study

which

included

Dr. Haas

and the individuals

on this review

team who

did the study

who included Dr.

Charles Gerba,

Dr.

Joan Rowes (ph.) accepted

the definition

noncontact recreation as

known for

swimming and

including the

activities we mentioned.

HEARING

OFFICER TIPSORD:

Mr.

Andes,

Miss Williams has a

follow-up that

may, I

think, talk about

the

primary

contact

versus

secondary

contact.

MS. WILLIAMS:

want to

ask

follow-up.

With regard

these studies --

good

morning. m

Deborah Williams

from the

Illinois EPA.

THE WITNESS:

Hi.

MS. WILLIAMS:

With regard to

these

studies in

Table 2 of your testimony,

are

you

aware of whether the

Metropolitan

Water

Reclamation

District of Greater Chicago

relied on

any of these studies

in developing

its

risk assessment document?

THE

WITNESS:

I am not.

MS.

WILLIAMS: That’s all.

Should I

Page 39

ask about this? Let me ask one other

question just

clarify. Exhibit

252

that

you just entered.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Miss

Williams, please --

MS. WILLIAMS:

I’m trying

figure --

it looks like this exhibit may contain

multiple papers. Is that correct? There’s

a--

THE WITNESS:

We don’t have

a copy of

it. I’m sorry. I thought it looked awfully

long. There’s more than one

document

there.

MS. ALEXANDER:

Yes.

I believe

there’s more than one document. It got

miscopied. My apologies. I will fix it

during the break.

MS. WILLIAMS:

That’s all.

Thank

you.

MS. ALEXANDER:

I have

couple of

quick follow-ups if we can

that. First of

all, Dr. Yates,

have you

ever

made

assumptions in your research

as to volumes of

water swallowed in connection with canoeing?

THE

WITNESS:

The

study that we were

just

discussing,

the

one

that

was

published

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Page

not,

understanding,

they

were

not

absolute,

but

they

varied

based

the

length

time

individual

was

exposed to

the

water.

was

volume

per

hour,

I remember

correctly.

but

309

was

used

conservative

assumption,

correct?

mean

can

find

it,

but

I’m

confident

we will.

don’t

recall

exactly

mills.

That

may,

indeed, be

the

case.

have

no reason to

doubt

you,

and

I could

look

through

it and

find

it,

too.

Again,

I’m

recalling

memory

the

table

that

showed

the

volume

ingested

per

hour

for

the

various

recreational

activities.

MS.

ALEXANDER:

I have

one

follow-up

this

you’re

about

move

on.

Are

you

moving

the

question?

Because

have

one

follow-up

before

you

do.

MR.

ANDES:

I’m

not

moving

the

question yet.

MS.

ALEXANDER:

Okay.

continue.

MR.

ANDES:

Okay.

Now,

one

the

studies

the

Table

2 on

16,

Dr.

Yates,

that

you

cited

was

the

Taylor

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from

South

Africa.

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Page

MS. ALEXANDER:

What do

you

mean by

relevant? Do

you

mean

a sufficient basis for

public health determination

relevant

what?

MR. ANDES:

This proceeding on the

water quality

criteria?

MS. ALEXANDER:

But, again, I object

the term relevant. I think it’s

vague.

You can answer it if

you

understand.

MR. ANDES:

you believe that

a study

that

doesn

Ttlook

all 100 should

ignored?

I t

don believe that

a study

that

doesn

Ttlook

all 100 should

be ignored.

But

don

Ttbelieve that it should

the only basis

upon

which

decision

should be made

as to

whether or

not

one would disinfect effluent knowing

that that

disinfection

is going

result in an

improvement

or is going

result

in a reduction in risk

public health.

And are

you

aware of anyone here

who -

is contending it

should

the only basis?

I’m not aware

that,

but

there might

be.

I don’t

really know. I don’t want

to try

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Page

record. But I’m not sure if it’s listed in

the exhibits.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

It’s

probably not listed in the exhibits, but it’s

docketed in the clerk’s office.

MR. ANDES:

Yes.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

Was that the

CD that

you

filed? Was that on the CD?

MR. ANDES:

I don’t think

so.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

Let’s

mark

an exhibit. Even though it’s

repetitious, it would

easier.

THE

WITNESS:

you can

tell me the

date

of the document

which you’re

referring, maybe that would expedite matters.

MR. ANDES:

April 10, 2009, is when we

filed it with the Board.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Was it March

13, the

date

of the --

MR. ANDES:

The document itself was

dated March 13.

THE WITNESS:

havea

copy

correspondence

dated

March 13, 2009. You

realize I have

to get

on an airplane and I’m

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Page 86

for

the transcript

that

I have in

front of me

that Dr. Yates

referencing

blow-ups

figures that

are

contained in

her

testimony.

far right

is the one that

is Figure

THE WITNESS:

Figure

2 which

is the

Little Calumet

River and

Cal-Sag

Channel

River,

May to

October 2002 Geometric

Mean

Fecal Coliform

Concentrations.

And

the other

figure we’re

showing is

Figure

1 on Page 6 of

my testimony

which is

the

North

Shore Channel

and

North

Branch

Chicago

River Ambient

Made

October

2002 Geometric

Mean

Fecal Coliform

Concentrations.

Sorry

about

that.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Thank

you.

MR. ANDES:

So,

Dr.

Yates, those

are fecal

coliform

concentrations?

Correct.

Those are

not concentrations

of any

particular

pathogens?

is not

known whether

those fecal

coliforms

include any

pathogenic strings

coli,

for

example,

but

that’s

just a

general

fecal

coliform

analysis.

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Page 91

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

Okay.

MR. ANDES:

I don’t know if

we’ll

-- it’s hard

to say

this point if we’ll

done

then.

THE COURT:

And

if not we’ll

make

arrangements for

her

come back.

MR.

ANDES:

Right.

HEARING OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Let’s take

lunch.

(Lunch break

taken.)

* * * * *

Page 92

STATE

OF ILLINOIS

)

SS.

COUNTY

COOK

LAURA MUKAHIRN,

being

a Certified

Shorthand

Reporter

doing

business in

the City

Chicago, Illinois,

County of

Cook, certify

that I

reported in shorthand

the proceedings

had

at the

foregoing

hearing

the

above-entitled

cause.

And

I certify

that the

foregoing

true

and

correct

transcript of

all my

shorthand

notes

taken

aforesaid

and

contains all

the proceedings

had

the said meeting

the

above-entitled

cause.

UtA

LAURA

MUKAHIRN,

CSR

CSR NO.

084-003592

Page

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Page 95

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4:8

90:22

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74:4

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20:1

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word

21:24

words

55:9

66:19 85:7

work46:3

63:22

working

18:21

world

47:5

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45:20

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7:11

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85:8

88:10

wrong

53:17

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Yates 3:24,24

4:2,4,9

6:1,14

6:23

13:3,6

14:23 24:1

27:9

32:11

35:16 39:20

43:23

44:19

52:24

64:17

65:9,16

80:18

85:19

86:2,16

90:18

Yeah 56:24

years 47:1

084-003592

92:19

17:3

27:15

78:10

86:9

1.04 78:22

1.28

78:2,14

1:00 90:13

1071:2472:16

10:00

1:14

100

50:20

59:3,5

67:23

68:23

69:12,14

78:23

88:22

1021

2:6

11 24:16

27:5

12.12 84:7

72:18,21,23

1630:20 43:23

16.07 78:23

84:7

160 59:1

1730:20

77:21

186

73:7

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82:6

1995

44:14

2 23:11,12

38:18

43:23

47:16

52:23

57:4

58:5

86:5

87:12

2.12

78:10

200 59:1

2002 34:6

74:20

75:4,15

86:7

86:12

2003

81:23

2005 14:19

26:21

77:21,22

2006

26:21,21

2008

26:20 27:5

61:9

2009

1:13

72:16

72:23

217)782-5544

2:8

239 27:4

249

6:3,15,16

2577:22

25th

78:21

Page

109

250

13:4,14,16

14:6

87:12

251 14:20,21

252

34:7,10 39:2

‘+1.3

253

44:15,17

254

45:14,16

27 5: 18

5:18

20:20 21:3

29:12

3-5A

78:6

3.25

78:3,7,12

3:00 5:9,10

40:4

41:6

42:7

43:8

301 1:6

3:8

302

1:6 3:8

303

1:6 3:9

304 1:6 3:9

46:8

305

46:9,12

306 45:1

309

43 :5

312)357-1313

2:12

3163 17:15

3168

15:2,10

351:53:8

61:10

4 21:3

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400

19:7

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2:11

574:16

76:5

57:23

5th

1:13

5:00 90:21

6 27:10

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75:2 86:9

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2:12

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67:9

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