Page
1
RECEVED
CLERK’S
OFFICE
STATE OF ILLINOIS.
)
SS.
M3u2009
COUNTY OF
C 0 0
K
)
STATE
OF
IWNOIS
Pollution
Control
Board
ILLINOIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD
February 17, 2009
IN
THE MATTER OF:
PROPOSED AMENDMENTS TO
)
R09-9
TIERED APPROACH TO
CORRECTIVE ACTION OBJECTIVES
)
(Rulemaking-Land)
(35
ILL. ADM. CODE
742)
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS held in the
above-entitled cause before Hearing Officer
Richard
McGill, called
by
the
Illinois Pollution Control
Board, pursuant
to
notice, taken before Rebecca
Graziano, CSR, within
and for the County of Cook
and
State of Illinois,
at
the Thompson
Center, 100 West
Randolph, Room 9-040, Chicago, Illinois, on the
17th
Day of March,
A.D.,
2009, commencing
at
2:10
p.m.
Page 2
1
APPEARANCES
2
ILLINOIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD:
3
Mr. Richard
R. McGill
4
Ms.
Alisa Liu
Mr. Anand Rao
Mr.
Thomas Johnson
Dr.
G.
Tanner
Girard
6
Mr.
Gary Blankenship
7
ILLINOIS ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION
AGENCY:
8
Ms. Kimberly A.
Geving
9
Ms.
Heather N. Nitong, M.A., M.P.H.
Ms.
Joyce
Munie, P.E.
10
Ms.
Tracey E. Hurley, M.P.H.
Mr. Thomas
C.
Hornshaw, Ph. D.
11
Mr. Hernando A. Albarracin
Mr. Gary P. King
12
Mr. Andrew Frierdich
13
TEST AMERICA:
14
Mr. Will Elcoate
15
ILLINOIS
ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATORY
GROUP:
16
Mr. Alec M. Davis
17
18
THE RISK ASSESSMENT AND MANAGEMENT
GROUP:
19
Mr. Atul Salhotra
20
ECOSYSTEM ENVIRONMENTAL
CHEMISTRY LAB:
21
Ms.
Kristin Potter
22
23
ALSO PRESENT:
24
Mr. Harvey Pokorny
Mr. James
Olsta
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Page
7
1
expense
and money
to get
an NFR
letter, and now,
all
2
of
a
sudden, it’s
good. It’s
valid,
but you’re
3
begging
the question
to the next
buyer
who’s
got a
4
geological
consultant
-- an environmental
consultant
5
like
me,
who’s
going
to say, “Hey,
you
know,
we’ve
6
got
to do one more
test,”
so saith ASTM,
you
know,
7
and quoting
on
back.
8
The
problem is
-- and I do
mention
9
it in
my filing
-- that,
you
know, if
you put
a tier
10
three
package in here,
you
-- let me
see.
How
do
I
11
put
it?
Submission of
an IAQ
package is
a
tier
12
three
not listed
as an option
within
35 IAC 742935.
13
By the way,
it’s still
not
listed
as
an
option
as
a
14
tier three, even
in
the
tier three
options.
And
15
that
-- I think
that, kind
of -- if
you go
look
at
16
35
IAC
742935 for tier
three,
I believe
that
17
submission
of IAQ data
is not even
mentioned.
18
MR.
MCGILL:
That’s IA
-- just
the
19
record,
what’s that
acronym,
you said?
20
MR. POKORNY:
Tier
three.
21
MR.
MCGILL:
IAQ?
22
MR.
POKORNY:z
Inner air quality.
23
MR. MCGILL:
Thank
you.
24
MR. POKORNY:
I’m
sorry.
I’m
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Page 25
1
something on,
how do you make sure it’s all the
same
2
thickness?
3
MR. OLSTA:
Well, there is also
a base
4
geo
textile, which helps
to give an indication of
5
the thickness.
6
MS. GEVING:
So do you do periodic
7
measurements
after it’s sprayed on once it’s dry?
8
MR. OIjSTA:
I would have
to
check
with
9
the -- it would
be a
-- I
could check with
10
Geokinetics on that. They would
typically
do
11
construction
quality assurance with respect
to that.
12
So
I can check with them.
13
MS. GEVING:
It would
be
really
14
helpful if they
could maybe
put
that in
a
public
15
comment
at
the end.
16
MR. OLSTA:
Yes.
17
MR. RAO:
I have one more.
Mr.
Olsta,
18
are
you
familiar with any USEPA
guidance or any
19
other, like,
ASTM guidance that
recommends what
20
thickness
you should
be
using for the
submembrane
21
system?
22
MR. OLSTA:
No.
I
don’t know offhand
23
what EPA --
24
MR. RAO:
Are you familiar with
any
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Page 28
1
described in C3,
as
opposed
to
C2.
2
MR. OLSTA:
Thank
you.
3
MR.
MCGILL:
Anything else?
4
MR. OLSTA:
That ends my --
5
MR. MCGILL:
Thank
you
very much for
6
participating this afternoon.
7
MR. OLSTA:
Thanks, Richard.
And
I
8
root for all
Big Ten teams,
by
the way.
9
MR. MCGILL:
I’m sorry?
10
MR. OLSTA:
I root for all Big Ten
11
teams.
12
MR. MCGILL:
Way
to go.
I know we
13
have one other person interested
in testifying. Why
14
don’t
we
go
off the record for
a
moment.
15
(Whereupon,
a
discussion was had
16
off the
record.)
17
MR. MCGILL:
Mr. Will
Elcoate,
if
you
18
could come
up
front,
please. Why don’t
you
have
a
19
seat,
sir.
20
MR. ELCOATE:
Okay.
Thank
you.
21
MR. MCGILL: And we’ll have the court
22
reporter
go
ahead and swear
you
in.
23
(Witness
sworn.)
24
MR. MCGILL:
Why don’t
you go ahead
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Page 36
1
to
that.
2
MR. KING:
We just
had an internal
3
meeting yesterday with our division of laboratories
4
to
discuss this very issue. In fact, it prompted
5
some calls
to
Will yesterday. We’re intending
to
6
move forward
with
NELAC certification for this air
7
components.
8
MS. POTTER:
Do
you
mean
to say
9
it’s going
to --
10
MR. MCGILL:
I’m sorry.
Could
you
11
just state your
name?
And if you’re --
12
MS. POTTER: Kristin Potter.
13
MR. MCGILL:
I’m sorry?
14
MS. POTTER: Kristin Potter.
15
MR. MCGILL:
Are
you
with any
16
organization?
17
MS. POTTER:
The Ecosystem
18
Environmental Chemistry Lab.
19
So are
you
going to require
20
certification for labs doing the testing before the
21
state
is accredited or accrediting labs within the
22
stateor other
states,
for that matter?
23
MR. KING:
We
just
had
a
meeting
24
yesterday
to
try
to
figure
out
how
to go
forward
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Page 45
1
no issue with
meeting them. We
meet them very
2
adequately.
The issue is
about how we’re going
to
3
be
asked
to report those numbers.
4
MR.
REOTT:
But
you don’t -- you’re
5
concerned
about
the
numbers being high,
and
6
therefore
you
being
under this pressure.
This
7
exists for
the soil
gas numbers?
8
MR. ELCOATE:
Yes.
9
MR.
REOTT:
Okay.
But
it
does
not
10
exist for the soil
or groundwater
numbers?
11
MR. ELCOATE:
Groundwater
numbers are
12
not an issue, no.
13
MR. REOTT:
And soil
numbers are not
14
an issue?
15
MR.
ELCOATE:
No.
16
MR. REOTT:
Okay.
17
MR. MCGILL: Any
additional
questions
18
for this witness?
Seeing none, thank
you
very much.
19
MR. ELCOATE:
Okay.
Thank
you.
20
MR.
MCGILL:
Why
don’t we
go
off
the
21
record for
a
moment.
22
(Whereupon,
a discussion was had
23
off the record.)
24
MR.
MCGILL:
Just for the record,
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Page 47
1
comment I could sense that from the questions and
2
the statements that there was some discomfort that
3
we don’t have
a
tier one table for indoor care, and
4
I
just
wanted
to
come back
to
that point, and it’s
5
kind of
--
it’s kind of a compliance, sort of,
6
notion.
7
The way we have
set up
the
8
proposal right now for tier one and tier two is that
9
you
can demonstrate compliance with soil and
10
groundwater. If you’re -- if you meet the numbers
11
for soil and groundwater, that would
be a
compliance
12
determination, or
you
could meet the number for soil
13
gas.
And if
you
meet the number for soil
gas, that
14
trumps the soil and groundwater numbers.
So
if
you
15
meet
the number for
soil gas, you don’t have to meet
16
the number for soil and ground water.
So that, kind
17
of, alleviates some of the other concerns.
18
If
you
include
a
table for indoor
19
air, what would
you
then
be
seeing
relative to a
20
compliance issue? Are we going
to say
that that
21
indoor air trumps the soil gas number? Well, if
22
it’s not going
to
touch it,
then what would
be
the
23
point of having it. If it is going
to trump
it,
now
24
you’ve got -- now you’ve
got a
-- now you’ve
got a
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Page
49
1
tracking along. With regards
to
this proceeding,
2
there’s
a
House Bill 4021
passed out of
the
House
3
Environment Committee on Wednesday, March 11th.
It
4
was a unanimous vote. That bill is modifying
the
5
underlying
right
to
no legislation in the
6
Environmental
Protection Act, and is modifying it
by
7
expanding the legislation
to account for vapor
8
intrusion. That bill
does
that
by adding soil
gas
9
contamination
to
the existing soil and
groundwater
10
contamination terminology.
11
So that’s
just
something for,
you
12
know,
to
track along
as
that moves
forward in the
13
legislature.
14
MR. MCGILL:
Thank
you.
15
MR. KING: And that was all I had.
16
MR.
MCGILL:
Thank
you.
Any
17
additional testimony or
questions? Seeing none, now
18
I
will move
on to
a
few last procedural
items before
19
we adjourn. On February
23rd, 2009, the Agency
20
filed
a
document with the Board
entitled ASTMD,
21
1946-90 Standard Practice for
Analysis of Reformed
22
Gas by Gas Chromatography, Reapproved 2006.
The
23
Agency made
a
motion
for relief from the service
and
24
full filing requirements.
There’s been no response
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Page
56
I
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Page
58
matter
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Page 59
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20:17
25:3
26:3 39:14,19
40:2,20
41:2
41:20
42:14
44:4
47:2
1
went
11:12
were
12:7 13:24
16:3
17:6
19:10
20:21,24
22:11,12,13
30:21
32:10
33:21 37:9,17
West
1:15
we’ll
28:21 42:7
we’re
5:18 8:6
14:8
20:17
30:3
31:1,15
31:15
32:6
33:18
34:21
36:5 37:2,3
38:7,11
39:6
41:6
45:2 48:6
48:9
we’ve
6:6 7:5
9:22 12:9
15:3
48:1,4
While
17:23
whole
5:5 6:8
29:12
34:23
wide 8:13
willing 14:2
wishes
46:1
witness
3:5,8,9
3:14
13:19,20
28:23
45:18
witnesses
10:14
13:24
wondering
21:3
22:8
work
12:4,9
29:4,9,14
workable
18:8
worked 6:2
works
6:9
write
3:12
written
3:16
4:15
50:9
wrong
6:22
Y
yeah
23:2
39:8
39:10
40:23
41:16,22
42:15
42:18
43:2,9
46:24
year
34:3
years
4:5,6,7
5:6
6:1
29:7
34:1
yesterday
16:4
36:3,5,24
York
32:16 44:3
z
zero
39:1,1
$
$1.50
17:16
20:6
$2.25
17:16
$3.50
20:6
0
0.0001
31:1
001 38:12
084-004659
52:17
1
1,000 3 7:22,24
1.5
37:20
1017:12,17
40:14
42:8
100 1:15
40:14
40:15
11th
49:3
1217:10,14
12th
16:3
13
18:2,9
14 19:3,7
1519:14,18
1624:24
171:5
17th
1:16
1946-90
49:2
1
2
237:1938:8
2:10
1:17
20
4:5,7
29:7
39:1
42:8
200 38:6
39:1
2006 49:22
2008
12:9
2009
1:5,17
15:10 17:5
18:8
49:19
50:17,24
52:20
22 26:23
23rd
49:19
24 15:10
24th 18:7
27
3:22
27th
50:24
2815:24
2923:22,24
50:16
52:16
3
30
4:6
17:19
26:14
34:1
31
46:21
351:87:12,16
14:19
4th 17:5
4021
49:2
45
50:10
48-hour
34:3
5
5 37:20
50 17:19
6
617:12,1720:23
21:19 22:12
23:13
60
17:11,15
20:24
21:1,8
21:19
22:1,24
23:21
24:24
26:1,5
46:15
60603
52:16
7
742 1:8
742.1210
19:20
40:12
wrote 4:10
742935
7:12,16
750,000
38:9,15
8
850
52:16
9
9-040
1:16
90
37:8
4