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BEFORE THE ILLINOIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD
2
3 IN THE MATTER OF:
)
4 SECTION 27 PROPOSED RULES FOR )
5 NITROGEN OXIDE (NOx) EMISSIONS ) R07-19
6 FROM STATIONARY RECIPROCATING ) (Rulemaking-Air)
7 INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES AND )
8 TURBINES: AMENDMENTS TO 35 ILL.)
9 ADM. CODE PARTS 211 AND 217. )
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS had in the
13 above-entitled cause on the 7th day of May, A.D.
14 2008, at 11:00 a.m.
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1 APPEARANCES:
2 ILLINOIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD:
3
MS. ANDREA S. MOORE, Lead Board Member,
4
MR. TIMOTHY J. FOX, Hearing Officer,
5
MR. ANAND RAO, Technical Staff Member;
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7 ILLINOIS ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY:
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MS. RACHAEL L. DOCTORS, Assistant Counsel,
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MR. YOGINDER MAHAJAN, Engineer;
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11 ILLINOIS ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATORY GROUP and
12 ILLINOIS MUNICIPAL ELECTRICAL AGENCY:
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MS. N. LaDONNA DRIVER of
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HODGE, DWYER, ZEMAN;
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16 ANR PIPELINE COMPANY and
17 NATURAL GAS PIPELINE COMPANY OF AMERICA:
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MR. JOSHUA R. MORE of
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SCHIFFHARDIN, LLP.
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23 REPORTED BY: SHARON BERKERY, C.S.R.
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CERTIFICATE NO. 84-4327.
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I N D E X
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Page
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4 EXAMINATION
5 MR. JAMES McCARTHY...................10
6 MR. ROBERT KALEL.....................15
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E X H I B I T S
10 NUMBER
MARKED FOR ID RECEIVED
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(No exhibits were marked.)
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THE HEARING OFFICER: Good morning,
2
everyone. Welcome to this Illinois Pollution
3
Control Board hearing.
4
My name is Tim Fox, and I am the
5
Hearing Officer for this rulemaking
6
proceeding entitled Section 27 Proposed Rules
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For Nitrogen Oxide Emissions From Stationary
8
Reciprocating Internal Combustion Engines and
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Turbines, Amendments to 35 Illinois
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Administrative Code 211 and 217. The Board
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Docket Number for this rulemaking is R07-19.
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In an order dated January 10th of
13
2008, the Board granted the Illinois
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Environmental Protection Agency's motion to
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proceed with an amended proposal and directed
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the hearing officer to proceed to hearing.
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Also present today from the Board
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are, on my right, Board Member Andrea S.
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Moore, the lead board member for this
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rulemaking, as well as on my left Anand Rao
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of the Board's technical staff.
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Would Member Moore like to make
23
any opening remarks?
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MS. MOORE: Welcome.
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1
THE HEARING OFFICER: And on we go.
2
Today we are holding the second
3
hearing, of course, in this rulemaking. The
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first took place, as all, of course, will
5
recall, on Wednesday, April 9th, 2008, in
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Edwardsville.
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This proceeding is governed by the
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Board's procedural rules. All information
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that is relevant and that is not repetitious
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or privileged will be admitted into the
11
record.
12
Please note that any question
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posed today, either by Board Member Moore or
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the staff, are intended solely to develop a
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clear and complete record for the Board's
16
decision and do not reflect any judgment or
17
conclusion regarding the amended proposal
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filed by the Agency.
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The Board has received prefiled
20
testimony for the second hearing from
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Mr. James McCarthy of Innovative
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Environmental Solution, Incorporated on
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behalf of ANR Pipeline Company and Natural
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Gas Pipeline Company of America, to which he
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1
has referred collectively as The Pipeline
2
Group, as I recall.
3
We will begin this hearing with
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Mr. McCarthy's testimony. This will be
5
followed by questions that any of the
6
participants may have for him on the basis of
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that prefiled testimony. After that, anyone
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else may testify, as time permits at this
9
hearing.
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If any participant, other than
11
Mr. McCarthy, would like to testify today,
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there is -- there are, in fact, two sign-up
13
sheets right inside the door to this room.
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Like all witnesses, those who sign up to
15
testify will, of course, be sworn in and may
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be asked questions about the substance of
17
that testimony.
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And then, my obligatory plea, of
19
course, to speak clearly for the benefit of
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the court reporter and avoid speaking at the
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same time as another participant, so that she
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can help develop a clear transcript for us.
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Are there questions at all about
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our procedures or our order of testimony at
7
1
this point?
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Very well. If the court reporter
3
would swear in Mr. McCarthy, then, to testify
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on behalf of The Pipeline Group, please.
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(WHEREUPON, the witness was duly
6
sworn.)
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MR. McCARTHY: I do.
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MR. MORE: And, Tim, if it would be
9
all right, I'd like to give a statement
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before he testifies.
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THE HEARING OFFICER: Very good.
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Please, go ahead.
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MR. MORE: Josh More, from
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SchiffHardin, representing ANR Pipeline
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Company and Natural Gas Pipeline Company of
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America.
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As mentioned in Mr. McCarthy's
18
testimony, the emission units owned and
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operated by natural gas transmission
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companies are unique in how they are
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constructed and how they operate. This is
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important, because the way a unit operates
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and the frequency of its operations has a lot
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to do with how emissions can be controlled.
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THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. More, if I
2
may interrupt, it sounds like you're going to
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come close to the nature of testimony about
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some of the sources. If we could have the
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court reporter swear you in, we can do that
6
very quickly and then have you resume.
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MR. MORE: That's the end. I mean,
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then I was going to get into our position on
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where we stand with respect to the rule.
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THE HEARING OFFICER: Very good.
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MR. MORE: So I'll be more than happy
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to be sworn in, if that's...
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(WHEREUPON, the witness was duly
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sworn.)
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THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. More, thank
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you for letting me interrupt you.
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Mr. McCarthy, in speaking
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procedurally about the hearing before we
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convened, Mr. Moore had indicated, I believe,
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that you wished not to read your summary --
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read your testimony, which is, of course,
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already admitted into the record, and opted,
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in fact, not to present a summary of any
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kind. Is your preference simply to proceed
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to questions that the other participants may
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have of you at this point?
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MR. McCARTHY: Yes.
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THE HEARING OFFICER: Anything
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further, Mr. More?
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MR. MORE: Yes. I'd like to talk
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about where we stand with respect to the
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rule --
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THE HEARING OFFICER: Very good.
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MR. MORE: -- and how we got there.
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So the Agency, with the help of
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The Pipeline Group, developed compliance
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options that take into account the
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aberrational realities of the engines and
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turbines used by gas transmission companies.
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These compliance options that are being
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considered today are necessary to enable
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these units to comply.
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As mentioned in the prefiled
20
testimony, ANR Pipeline Company and Natural
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Gas Pipeline Company of America do not object
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to the rule, because the geographic scope is
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limited to the nonattainment areas, and the
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affected sources will be able to find a
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compliance option that works for them. With
2
that, Mr. McCarthy is available to answer any
3
questions.
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THE HEARING OFFICER: Very good.
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Thank you, Mr. Moore.
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MS. DOCTORS: Can we go off the record
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one second, let me just check with Rob?
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THE HEARING OFFICER: That's fine,
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Ms. Doctor's, please do.
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(WHEREUPON, discussion was had
11
off the record.)
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MS. DOCTORS: I just have two
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questions.
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THE HEARING OFFICER: Ms. Doctors,
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please go ahead.
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JAMES McCARTHY,
17 called as a witness herein, having been first duly
18 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
19
EXAMINATION
20 BY MS. DOCTORS:
21
Q. Mr. McCarthy, I want to acknowledge
22 that the Agency has worked and you have worked with
23 us to develop a rule that meets both environmental
24 objectives and allows for compliance. With that
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1 said, I'd like to ask you whether you just represent
2 the pipelines?
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A. Yes.
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Q. Does this rule, in fact, cover other
5 types of engines?
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A. It does.
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Q. And turbines?
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A. Yes.
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Q. Do you object to this rule?
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A. No, there's no objection.
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MS. DOCTORS: Thank you.
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THE HEARING OFFICER: Any other
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questions on the part of the Agency,
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Ms. Doctors?
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MS. DOCTORS: No, we do not have any
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more.
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THE HEARING OFFICER: Ms. Driver, on
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behalf of those you represent?
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MS. DRIVER: No, thank you.
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THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Rao
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indicates that on behalf of the Board he
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doesn't have any questions.
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Does Board Member Moore have any
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questions she'd like to pose?
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MS. MOORE: Ms. Doctor's asked my
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question.
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THE HEARING OFFICER: In that case, I
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will note for the record that I can clearly
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see that there are -- the two sheets for
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persons to indicate that they would like to
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testify for persons who have not prefiled
8
testimony, those plainly are blank. But
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certainly I would give any last option to
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either the Agency's witnesses or to
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Ms. Driver to offer testimony at this point
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if they wish to.
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MS. DRIVER: No, thank you.
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MS. DOCTORS: We don't have -- the
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Agency does not have any testimony. But it
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would like to offer in the errata and
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clarification sheet that it mentioned in the
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first hearing.
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THE HEARING OFFICER: Very good. That
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sounds like a good time for a motion to that
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effect, Ms. Doctors, if you'd like to offer
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that?
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MS. DOCTORS: I'd like to indicate
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that this motion has been shared with
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Mr. More and with Ms. Driver, and they
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commented upon it. And the Agency believes
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that we have agreement on the contents of
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this clarification and errata sheet.
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And at this point, I'd like to ask
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that it be admitted. I have three copies.
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Or let me give you another one.
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THE HEARING OFFICER: I saw Mr. Moore
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indicating with a gesture that he agreed with
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your assessment.
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Is that accurate, Mr. More?
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MR. MORE: That's right. We have no
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objection and we agree to the changes.
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THE HEARING OFFICER: Very good. And,
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Ms. Driver, you were obviously here for
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Ms. Doctor's remarks, and it sounds like you
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have no disagreement with those either?
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MS. DRIVER: That's correct, we have
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no objection.
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THE HEARING OFFICER: Any objection at
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all to the admission to what I will mark as
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Exhibit No. 2, the clarifications and errata
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sheet?
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Hearing and seeing no objection,
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it will be marked and admitted as Exhibit 2.
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THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Rao
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indicates that he has a question for the
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Agency.
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Mr. Rao, it appears to be a good
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time for that.
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MR. RAO: Yeah, my question relates to
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an issue raised in Mr. McCarthy's testimony
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on Page 6.
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I think in the second full
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paragraph Mr. McCarthy states that, "We
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firmly believe that larger units for both IC
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engines and turbines provide the most cost
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effective and environmentally beneficial
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avenue for emission reduction. I'm
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questioning the basis and legitimacy of 500
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horsepower IC engine threshold and 3.5
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megawatt turbine threshold."
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Could the Agency please -- and
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I'll explain the rationale for setting those
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thresholds.
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MS. DOCTORS: Is Mr. Kalel still under
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oath from the first hearing, or does he need
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to be resworn?
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THE HEARING OFFICER: Why don't we
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just go ahead and have him sworn in.
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(WHEREUPON, the witness was duly
4
sworn.)
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ROBERT KALEL,
6 called as a witness herein, having been first duly
7 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
8
EXAMINATION
9 BY THE WITNESS:
10
A. The thresholds that are described in
11 Mr. McCarthy's testimony on Page 6, the 500
12 horsepower threshold for IC engines and the 3.5
13 megawatts for turbines, these were developed by the
14 Agency based on their potential to emit for NOx. It
15 is our belief that engines of that size, just an
16 individual engine, has a potential to emit
17 approximately 100 tons per year of NOx emissions.
18
We are aware that not everyone
19 operates engines continuously throughout the year
20 and that units of this size may not achieve 100
21 tons, but we provided in the rule mechanisms that
22 engines of this size could avoid having to comply
23 with the rule, either through enforceable emission
24 limits in the permits or through other operating
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1 characteristics in terms of the number of hours that
2 they operate. So there are -- there is relief for
3 small engines that don't operate continuously, but
4 because of the potential of engines of this size to
5 be significant emitters, we think that that
6 threshold is appropriate.
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MR. RAO: Okay. Thank you very much.
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THE HEARING OFFICER: Any further
9
questions on the part of Member Moore,
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Mr. Rao?
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On the part of any other
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participants, last opportunity?
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Excellent. Why don't we thank,
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first of all, Mr. McCarthy for the
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preparation of his testimony and his travel
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to the hearing.
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And it's appropriate, it appears,
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to move onto the issue of the economic impact
19
study.
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Since 1998, Section 27(b) of the
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Environmental Protection Act has required
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that the Board request that the department
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now known as the Department of Commerce and
24
Economic Opportunity, conduct an economic
17
1
impact study of proposed rules before the
2
Board adopts them.
3
The Board then must make either
4
the economic impact study or the Department's
5
explanation for not conducting one available
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to the public at least 20 days before a
7
public hearing. In a letter dated January
8
23rd, 2008 and posted under this docket
9
number on the Board's website, the Board did
10
request that the Department conduct an
11
economic impact study on this amended
12
rulemaking proposal, specifically. And, to
13
date, the Board has received nothing from the
14
Department responding to that request.
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Is there anyone who wishes to
16
testify or comment regarding either the
17
request from the Board or the lack of
18
response from the Department of Commerce and
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Economic Opportunity on that issue?
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Seeing none, why don't we go off
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the record briefly, just to address a
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procedural issue.
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(WHEREUPON, discussion was had
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off the record.)
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THE HEARING OFFICER: Then, if we may
2
go back on the record, please.
3
In going off the record to discuss
4
procedural issues, the participants spoke
5
about filing deadlines, specifically before
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the Board does take action on the Agency's
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amended proposal. The Board will hold open a
8
comment period ending 30 days after the Board
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receives the transcript of this hearing and
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allow responses for a period of 14 days after
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that 30-day comment period has run.
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To set the specific deadlines more
13
clearly, I'll issue a hearing officer order
14
shortly after the transcript is filed with
15
the Board, which will -- is expected to be
16
available on May 14th, 2008. Of course, once
17
it's filed with the Board, it will be placed
18
very quickly on the Board's website, where it
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can be viewed and printed by any of the
20
participants.
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Written public comments are not
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limited to those who have participated in
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either of these two hearings, and those
24
comments may be filed with the Board or
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electronically through the Board's clerk's
2
office online, and any questions about
3
electronic filing can certainly be directed
4
to the Board's clerk's office. Filings with
5
the Board, of course, whether paper or
6
electronic, must also be served on the
7
hearing officer and those persons on the
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service list.
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And a correct service list is
10
available from the clerk's office. If there
11
are questions at all about procedural aspects
12
of the rulemaking, you may contact me at the
13
telephone number and e-mail address that are
14
posted on the Board's website. No other
15
hearings, of course, are now scheduled in
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this rulemaking proceeding.
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Are there any other matters that
18
need to be addressed at this time?
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Seeing none, I would like to thank
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everyone for their travel time and their
21
participation, and we can adjourn. Thanks
22
very much.
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(WHICH WERE ALL THE MATTERS HEARD
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IN THE ABOVE-ENTITLED CAUSE THIS DATE.)
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1 STATE OF ILLINOIS)
2
) SS:
3 COUNTY OF COOK )
4
I, SHARON BERKERY, a Certified Shorthand
5 Reporter of the State of Illinois, do hereby certify
6 that I reported in shorthand the proceedings had at
7 the hearing aforesaid, and that the foregoing is a
8 true, complete and correct transcript of the
9 proceedings of said hearing as appears from my
10 stenographic notes so taken and transcribed under my
11 personal direction.
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IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I do hereunto set my
13 hand at Chicago, Illinois, this 7th day of
14 May, 2008.
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16
17
Certified Shorthand Reporter
18
19 C.S.R. Certificate No. 84-4327.
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