I

W

.

September 28, 2006

(VIAFACSIMILE2

The Honorable Bradley Halloran

Hearing Officer

Illinois Pollution Control Board

100

. West Randolph, IlthFlooi

Chicago, Illinois 60601

Re

:

State of Illinois v . Community Landfill Company, Inc

. and City of

Morris

; PCB 03-191

Dear Mr. Halloran

:

Consistent with your direction of earlier today, please find attached a copy of the City's

Response to Community Landfill Company, Inc

.'s Motion to Cancel Hearing and the State's

Response in Opposition thereto,

harles F . Helsten

8

chelstenc4906

hinshawlaw.corn

CFH:dmh

cc:

Clarissa Grayson

Chris Grant

Re E,~

OFFICE

®

. _ .

ATTOMLYS AT LAW

100 Path Avenua

SE-1)

2 8

2006

PO

. Box 1389

Rockford, IL 61105-1389

Pollution

STATE OF

Control

ILLINOISBoard

T 8154904900

F 815490-4901

wv.w .ninshawlaw.co m

Arizona California

Florida Illinois Indiana Massachusetts Minnesota Missouri

NewYork Oregon Rhode Island Wisconsin

7050N65,1 806799

---

PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF ILLINOIS„

)

Complainant,

)

V .

)

PCB No . 03-191

an

COan_TllinoisIllinois

Corporation,

MunicipalTY

LANDFILL

Corporation,,

and

COMPANY,

CITY OF MORRIS,INC

.,

))

)

Respondents .

)

INCRESPONSE

.'S MOTION

TO RESPONDENT,

TO CANCEL HEARING

COMMUNITY

AND

LANDFILL

COMPLAINANT,

COMPANY,STATE

OF ILLINOIS' RESPONSE IN OPPOSITION TO MOTION TO CANCEL

HEARING

NOW

. COMES the CITY OF MORRIS, an Illinois Municipal

Corporation, by and

through its attorneys, HINSHAW & CULBERTSON LLP, and for its Response to

both the

Motion of Respondent, Community Landfill Company, Inc

.'s. Motion to Cancel Hearing and the

Complainant, State

of

Illinois', Response in Opposition to same, states as follows

:

As indicated in oral arguments presented

o Hearing Officer Bradley Halloran

earlier today, the City has and continues

.

to

maintain that it is essentially a putative, ancillary

Respondent in this matter, essentially caught in a "cross-fire" between the Complainant

State of

Illinois and Respondent Community Landfill Company, Inc . (the entity which, even by this

Honorable Board's admission at Page 14 of its February 16, 2006 Interim Order, conducted the

day to day waste disposal activities at the facility in question . In turn, the City has made its

position clear that it vigorously objects to having been found a party that "conducted a waste

disposal operation" in this Honorable Board's Interim Order of February 16, 2006-

2.

The City believes that actual prejudice will result to its position in this matter if

this

.hearing is not continued tuitil such time as Edward Ptuim can be compelled to testify

.

The

City. has included Edward Praim on its Witness List for the hearing in question

(copy

of such

RECESVED

CLERK'S

OFFICE

BEFORE THE ILLL`TOIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD

SAP 2 8 2006

STATE

Pollution OF

ILLINOIS

Board

?M2967, 1 M06289

---

witness designation being Marked-Exhibit A-and attached hereto and incorporated herein by this -

reference and hereby served upon the parties) .

3.

Since (as established by the record in this matter) the cost of complying closure,

post-closure financial assurance requirements runs literally in the millions of dollars, obviously

since the State is claiming that the City is potentially responsible for such costs and expenses, it

is essential that a full hearing be afforded to all parties, with all witnesses andallmaterial

evidence being received at that hearing .

4.

As indicated in oral arguments presented to Hearing Officer Halloran earlier

today, based upon its review of other depositions and other testimony given by the Pruim

Brothers in other related matters, it fears that if only one corporate representative (i .e., Robert

Pruim) is called in this matter that corporate representative will simply demurrer and defer to

knowledge possessed by Mr. Edward Pruini (who is presently medically unavailable to testify in

this matter at the hearing which is now scheduled) . In tam, since Mr. Edward Pruim was the

Treasurer and Chief Financial Officer of the corporation, and since closure post-closure matters

by their very essence relate to financial issues, the City submits that it is absolutely essential that

it

be allowed to question Mr. Edward Pruim

.

in detail as to why the parties find themselves in the

present situation they do before this Honorable Board.

5 .

The City respectfully submits that its position in this matter s entirely consistent

with this Honorable Board's Supplemental Order of June 1, 2006, which clarifies and expands

upon the Board's, Initial Interim Order of

February 6, 2006. The text of that Order makes clear

that (pursuant to Section 33(c) and 42(h) of the Illinois Environmental Protection Act),

not only

Board Member Melas, but the entire Board expects a full, complete and detailed explanation

as

to

: (1) how the landfall facility in question found itself in the condition it did as of the

initiation

2

70502967x1806269

---

of th s enforcement r ctI ~ ; (2) who was responsible for the condition of the landlilt (3) what (if

any) further steps have been taken to address concerns raised by the State during the course of

this action.

6.

In response to the State's allegation that a "hearing" on the "proposed remedy" is

necessary in this matter, the City notes that at Page 4 of the Board's order of June 1, 2006, the

Board notes that the purpose of the Act (and the financial assurance obligations set forth therein),

are to ensure that neither health nor the environment is harmed from the operation of a municipal

solid waste landfill

. The Board's June 1, 2006 goes further in noting that the Board must

interpret the Act as it applies " . . .in

each individual instance." (Emphasis added)

. As indicated

in

oral arguments had before Hearing Officer Halloran earlier today, in his 106 page deposition,

expert witness Devin Moose has indicated that based upon the current status of activities which

have been undertaken at the facility in question, no eminent and substantial threat to the human

health and the environment is posed by the facility in question

. (See pp

. 70-75) . As noted by

Mr

. Moose in his deposition, the site is essentially closed, and for the past two years, site

characterization and preliminary closure activities have been undertaken by the City (pending

final resolution of the City's alleged status as a party responsible for the posting of closure, post-

closure financial assurance) to assure that the human health and/or the environment are not

harmed. (See pp. 76-80 and Moose Deposition Exhibit 8)

. As such, (and as noted by Mr.

Moose

in his deposition_ testimony), the purpose of the financial assurance provisions of the Act have

beenn squarely met

. In _turn, accordingly, there is no immediate need for the conducting of a

remedy heating in this matter, and the more paramount concern is affording all

parties a

complete hearing on all issues and factors noted by the Board in its June 1, 2006 order

.

3

,U502967,1 106289

---

.7.

In summary, the City wishes to again make clear that it does not take sides with or

suppott one part or the

other in

this matter

. Rather, the City's sole and controlling concern is that

it be afforded a full and fair hearing on all the evidence which exist in this case.

In turn, it is the City's fear that if it is not allowed to examine the Treasurer and

Chief Financial Officer of the Co-Respondent, Community Landfill Company, Inc . in this matter,

it could be substantially prejudiced, and the taxx payers of the City could face exposure for

literally millions of dollars of closure, post-closure obligations without having been afforded the

opportunity to fully and completely present its case . Put a different way, this Honorable Board

has consistently held in, hearings such as this that for its own benefit (as well as the benefit of

each party to such an action) a complete and full hearing on all relevant evidence should be

conducted, and that the needs of all parties for a complete and full hearing should be satisfied.

The City would submit that the basic precepts of fundamental fairness established by this Board

required nothing less .

WHEREFORE, the City of Morris respectfully requests that the hearing in this matter be

continued

until such time as both Edward and Robert Pruim are physically and medically able to

testify in this

matter.-

Dated:

Respecttull.

On el, alf of the C

Charles F . Helsten

Hinshaw

.& Culbertson LLP

100 Park Avenue

P.O. Box 1389

Rockford, IL 61105-1389

815-490-4900

This document utilized 100%

4

recycled paper products

.

axles F. Helsten

One ofIts

Attorneys

70502967v1so67g9

---

ATFIDAVIT OF

SERVICE

The undersigned. pursuant to the provisions of Section 1-109 of the Illinois Code of Civil

Procedure, hereby under penalty

of

perjury wider the laws of the United States of America,

certifies that on _ . 2006, she caused to be served a copy of the

foregoing upon :

Mr. Christopher Grant

Assistant Attorney General

Environmental Bureau

188 W

. Randolph St ., 20th Fl .

Chicago, IL 60601

Mark LaRose

Clarissa Grayson

LaRose & Bosco, Ltd

.

200 N

. LaSalle, Suite 2810

Chicago, IL 60601

Ms. Dorothy Guim, Clerk

Pollution Control Board

100 W. Randolph, Suite 11-500

Chicago, IL 60601

Bradley Halloran

Hearing Officer

Pollution Control Board

100 W

. Randolph, Suite 11

Chicago, IL 60601

A copy of the same was enclosed in an envelope in the United States mail at Rockford, Illinois,

proper postage prepaid, before the hour of 5

:00 p .m., addressed as above .

I it I

.* ~/'

HINSHAW & CULBERTSON

100 Park Avenue

P.O. Box 1389

Rockford, IL 61105-1389

(815)

490-4900

70415200v

1 6062A9

---

BEFORE THE ILLL'4OIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD

PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF ILLINOIS„

)

Complainant,

)

V. .

)

PCB No. 03-191

COMMUNITY LANDFILL COMPANY, INC ., )

an

Illinois Corporation, and CITY OF MORRIS, )

an Illinois Municipal Corporation,,

Respondents.

)

WITNESS LIST AND EXHIBIT LIST

NOW COMES the Respondent, City of Morris, by and through its attorneys, Hinshaw &

Culbertson,

. LLP, and files its Witness List and Exhibit List, as follows :

WITNESS LIST

1 .

Devin Moose

2.

William Crawford

3 .

John Enger

4 .

.J.P. Pelnarsh Sr.

Robert Pzuim .

Edward Pruim

R. Michael McDermont

Joyce Munie

Blake Harris

.

10.

Cristina Roque

11 .

Ellen Robinson

---

1'_ .

Mark 1'.etzlaff

13 .

Brian White

14

.

The City also reserves the right to call any other witness in rebuttal of any

pos Lion taken by the State or Community Landfill Company in presentation of their respective

cases.

EXHIBIT LIST

Any and all exhibits and/or information attached to airy pleadings, motions or

other documents filed for the record in this case

;

2 .

Ally and all documents, records, reports, information, and/or other tangible things

referred to in all depositions taken and all discovery requests (and responses thereto) made in this

matter;

3 .

Any and all documents on file concerning the Morris Community Landfill with

the Illinois Environmental Protection Agency

-

4.

Any and all documents produced by any party in response to information riders

attached to depositions notices or discovery requests (including, but not limited to all documents

produced by the City of Morris in connection with the depositions of John Enger, William

Crawford and De-Yin

Moose).

The City also reserves the right to call any other exhibits in rebuttal of any

position taken by the State or Community Landfill Company in presentation of their respective

cases.

2

70502427+1 606299

---

Charles F . Helsten

Hinshaw & Culbertson UP

100 Park Avenue

P .O. Box 1389

Rockford, IL 61105-1389

815-490-4900

k

Respectfully

Oz>„ eliaif of

submitted,the

CI7OF MORRIS

Charles F . Helsten

e of Its Attorneys

This document utilized 100% recycled paper products .

3

70502427, 1 GO6289

---

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6

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The ckpaitim of DEVIN A . MBE,

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taken before Link A

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a Notary

RbLic in

;i o for the Canty of M0eiiry, State of

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lrc ., 1156 N . Fifth RvLQ, St

. Charles, Illinois, on

nl&edey the 2nd of Agst,

A.C., 2016, sd,ndAed at

the hour of 1 o'clock Lit aaIrirnirg at 1

:10 p.m.

FRE ENT :

STATE

188

at :

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.

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.

ILLINOIS

CNRISTQ'NER

Attorney

Street,

ATT(RNEY

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(3312214-53

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.

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LINDA LANCE REP[iiTING --

847\658\6918

(Wltrcsa Swam

.)

DEVIN A . CSE, P .E., DEE,

havirg been first dAy sworn, was exanirS and testified

as follows

:

DWIINATICN

BY MR

. GR09

:

•

Mr . Moose, m7 none is O,ris trait a l I'm

with the Attorney General's office . I'm the attorney

reploeeitirg the State in this osa . First, Let me ask

you, have yw givn

a depeaitien before?

A

Yes

.

•

Approximately how nay tine

A

I'm not sire, six, eight, tan, twelve,

saiethirg like that .

•

Have yon ever testified in mart?

A

Yes .

•

And can you tell me, in what revs you've

testified?

A

I''e been in front of the Pollution Control

& rd . I hove been in fruit of the City of

Chicago

in

their, I think it's Admnistrerhe Law jju:pe, L'~r not

sure if that's corrvi t, ad I have ban in front of sonic

ether veto havirg to d, with coltutim cmtro

facilities that I don't recall at this time .

1

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.

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behalf

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PRESENT VIA SPEAKERPHONE

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ILLINOIS

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WITNESS :

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DEVIN

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D(LMINATION

17.L.6E,'FE., PEE

LINDA LANCE REPORTING

-- 847\658\6918

•

Do yaw

raieiher if ay of those sere

a torceta-it p'vsedirgs, in other words, atorcoreit

action Order- the Emir meat Protection Act, for

exaipl8?

A

Sae of them probably were

. I don't recalt

the apacifirs of then .

•

Were some of then also pennittirig types of

hearings?

A

Yes .

•

And in eedi case did you testify for the

Fe-m 410 was seeking the permit is mad to a

go emient agaeyp

A

No

.

o

In what cases have you testified on baheLf of

a amertnett agv'cy?

A

Athwgh not Fort of a Lasuft, I repesatt

terry unit^n of goverrmert . I've worked for rionrLy 60

condo`. in the State of Illinois, anettty mployerd Iry

over 20 mnidpwlittes in the State of Illinois . Arid

s'.nn of them that rare to mind as far as iinrkirg for the

jurisdiction s cTimf to the oppli®nt or tiie landfill

d.i'7er, I ,,,[We

the City of Chicago likes 1 a the

-

ty of diicbgo's e._rt . I deitepesi the City of

ward's la'dfiLi rrsiLetiors, trained all of their

LINDA LANCE REPORTING -- 847\658\6918

BY :

FIr

MS .

GRANTGRAY

SN

~sPAGE99

LINE4

1WE( Of E4IIBITS

Flb$F]R DESCRIPTION

'r

5

-

turriaum -vitae

A

LINE

32

1020-O. IEPA l.adfilt Inspection . . 25

103

Rsty.,},n's

Answers to 69

S>{plaieitat

InterrogatoriesArt3rers

to State's . . . 69

3

6

Prenotaa

InterrogatoriesCLusae

Cost Estimate - 102

1D

7

Pnamture

Parcel

Closure

B

Coat Estimate

- 1(T2

10

8

Shaw Emironnatal

Parcel A

aLteryetive . . . 102

10

4

ONtlinei

closureWpnoy3iof

tasks cEted 6-13-06 . . . .

103

11

---

i

F

6

a

9

10

12

13

14

15

16

17

9

20

22

Z3

24

initial irryrtors, rid

was

an

epert for the City of

lhingo m ntrercw ttxdfilI siting is&)?s, vperaticr d

.

iolr,

iha or allpnf vfoletim dens . And one thatt

cams to mini we the Lwrd YTA Laks 1i2-d shorn, Lard

Fed Laces 130th, I have worked for other Counties

reixesnttirg their Interest also for FrcEebly dozens of

different disputes .

(E)hibi t No. 1 Has mar)s for

r

identifloatim an 8-2-06 .)

a

I an going to show you what's marked as

Edribit Nurber 1- And I believe ynu'w identified this

as your CV or o iculun vitae

: is that correct?

It is-

Q

why don't yo.i hold onto that . I want to ask

you #nit your a deaden ad eperierce ad you've sort

of started on that . Sb, why rln't yw ga>:ralty tell rte

abaet yatr pat-seconiery sehcot eoLceriai?

A

I have a Bachelor's in Scisre dgre from

the University of Missai-i-Rotla, I have been involved

in --

and that is a foes in end dxlble major in

geological end Beotalnicat engineering . Those are

having to do with the study of soils std grnrdeter, I

workai for a geotoctnieal

engineer

on and off from '77

ihra.h

'83- Beginning in '83 1 started wrkirg for

--

LIMA LANG . R8 tING -- B47\658\6918

7

a contiruirg edratia, ra4atrelant that I'm regiired to

Ineintain . So, it's just a higher Level of accreditation

in the area of solid waste engineering .

New old ere yaP

A

I'm 49 on the 2nd of Mgst

.

•

Q

I was going to say, it's an awful tot

fF

•

stuff . Are yw free lllirois origirelly?

A

Yeah, grew yo in this area, lived here my

whole life,

a

And where do yvl now reside?

A .

In St . diarh just outside of town .

•

Can you describe briefly your invotvarent

with ladfilts specifically, penis nit waste disposal

facilities?

A

Probably beginning in about the early 'Bo's,

I'm going to say f83 or 'B4, I berate irmlvsi working

on

Landfills Fradamretaly from a m-stnrtaSility an

geoteivhical aspect. At the time there were not wry

exte-siw

regulations

irvoLved in latfills and my early

•

ladfillclient-rWaste Matagaipit, Irmiporated

. I

had lead retaired by then on a-pore 4rcrea;irgly k is .

to help then with isat of instruction dewaterirv,

• sloe

stability antysis, urstnctirg liners and so

•

forth, And seas of my asrly

essi wants were the

LIMA: LANCE . .REP' rING

247\658\6918

Q

t hat year first proteacitre jct ct of

elL e7

A

Yes,

Q

And 11.ct is clarify, 4cs your

ciagr-i- ir;-- .i

atlinttrircj'

A

Yes, I have a Bachelor's of Sciert degree in

civil egireerirg- I'm a Registered Profassia al

Ergireer in Illinois and nine

otter

states, 1' .e best

awardmd the levet of Diploma b the American Academy of

Envircwnental Ergire?rs with eiptasis

in solid waste

egireerirg-

Q Can you eclain vhat that bans?

A

It's a higher level

of accreditation- It

ra}aires that yea becae a Registered Professional

Ereirmr, it ra}Ares that yw

-- in all the chines

that entails

. It rs a res, I thin* it's seven or eight

years of egeria,ae

as a Registered Professional

Ergireer, and than it also requires a passing of anther

written e>'amratiQ+, vctaaive written mamratim in a

pertiwlar area of expertise- It also then-rspii~ yw

•

to pass an oral swamretiat by a panel

of got peas- A

•

nationwide peel of peers are essarbled ad

you have a

•

day tong deposittan like asking you different 9stioc

•

about ynr par tiw(ar area of the itdatry, it also has

LIMA LANCE REPORTING -- 847\658\6918

tdoo*s-i Ladfill, Settler's Hill lsdfitl, and a

landfill

in Danny, Cartcctiwt which was a big valley

•

fill that I w-ked on.

•

Over the years I got more involved

in landfills

just !erase of the increasing scrtairry that they

•

received, increased regutatoiy rec}nrerents

. And I got

•

irwollej in grarriecer monitoring, hytnuoeolagicet

evaluations of nal sites . All of that detvtxl really

•

gmd with

my edratimat hackgrend in ga'logicat and

g itednical engineering. And ea I arntined to get

we involved, I'd say son jiere in the Late '&Vs,

probably

'87;,

'88, sarevhere slag those lirm, I pretty

mth cawertal ful l-time to arviMmental

egineerirg.

And the ervii-a anal egireerirg fonses in tat arms,

solid waste tadfitls and rerSiatioi type projects .

Ard I participated in the develapian

of the ladfill

regulations in Illinois in wgwttirg and working with

the scientific peat on

that

.

O

Who ores )nr client at the tine yw we

•

camvttirg an the nt-aelapnait of the solid waste

rc~julatiae?

A

solid Waste AgsYy of northern Cot Caht

•

Q ware you irM iwd in the case, the valet

•

c e7

LIMA LPNCf REPtZI9NG --

847\668\fAIB

---

r

8

9

10

th€j 5atior rro

atci rawer for tat'

vase.

roar' . my ptle .

q

Nri ycu'iic ua-rer rly egaLapxl wr*-h c3w

i-.on_nnsl, rc:Vpura'

.~,

A

Yes .

•

Haw lrrt7 ha"? ycu treed with 6he .?

A

Ik wore aca,i red by

Shaw apx¢drretely two

and a half years ago .

•

Ntm you say 'Sa'n

A

we ware before that ErrAracrn . so, whit Sheu

two and a half years and its predecessors probably for

nearly ten

. So, I haven't qht work and moved . I jtst

charged lasiress cart, i f you will

.

•

And y ar bsircs cartel say, Dirtctor of Stan

Ennvir-oiinttaL- Shat are your rgFnstbilities as

di rector'?

A

8y job is rmlLy to nn the St . Charles,

Illinois office . W have 30 eiply ees hare

. We fonts

m solid waists ad ar+irmrcrrtal rerediaticn type

pvje'ts . I'm also retinal director of solid waste

•

planing for Shaw Erviiar,eAal nationwide, ad we're

also the, if yes will, go-to affic for siting and

davalapiert of new Landfills or erfedtrg Iasfills

retierwide . 4Wra arrently Working prahsbly m six

or

LINDA LANCE RFPQtTING -- 847\658\6918

financial o¢eriacalsic-1 or firvrcial perfonmanse or

financial gerartees begin at the

very

bgimirg which

in other genres is called an engiineer's cut estimate .

•

An cgireer's mot estimate is

is to dc-elcp

projections of ,stnrtiai rests . In the tatdfill

rrglllatiors that egwreer''s cost estimate is Ls&J

•

pmdanirattly in posting finaciat a4sjr tc for

Landfills ad mare specifically premature

clue-re

a'd

•

post-cLvure cam for lardfilts .

G

Let lie s. ,rate my gaetion a little bit

laaee I guess there's two thirty I'm thinking of . One

would be develcplre a net estimate for -- that would be

in caipliatce with firecial assurarice regulations, in

other words, smething that it essettially estimate,

closure and post-strobe sure, and the scared -- the

satrd part of that

would be in acttatty working with

the variow rrerhe-nuns for piarnirg fira-ciaL assurace

.

So, let rte split the q tic, µ,

.

A

I axierstad the

cp tior .

a

okay.

A

Art that ic_ a rrscsery pracrsor for

LINDA

LANCE

REPORTING .-- 847\658\6918

11

Q

1

ci1r1' state irehdirp the SSwias

.

0

or of this office?

A

ee .

w

t csy . ye, Say ycu +:re irnot', & in -

eanrzntina rn solid waste ;-gutatims . 1 asarre that

ycu'r^_ £aniliar with the solid waste resulatio s in

ILlirois?

A

Yes-

•

Arid with the Envira-urrital Protection Act --

A

Yes .

Q

-- and the regiirelents of it? Are yes

funiliar with firrrcial assurace re Jirermts

--

A

Yes .

•

--

pertainvg to La-dfhlls7

A

Yes,

•

Haw you ever assisted, either with Ertv(r- ,

or in your professiaet egeriesx, ever assisted in

d>taining

IF irarial asslrar

rn

for a landfill client or

for a goverrnmtat agency or something like that?

A

Yes

.

•

a Can you discrite

ya-r

a¢eriace with,

specificatly with ±tainirg financial assu'ate far

•

Ladf i l Is?

A

air experie ce, ny e'¢eriace in obtaining

at eg(nocring cwt estimate?

A

Yeah . The state re4iires that a professioreL

•

agireer be involved in the prawn . so, that process

•

of developing the rent estimate is

hre ty a

professiaal egirezr and has to be certified by a

•

ae9ietrrcd Prafessiaral Engineer- .

Nd,ody else has the

authority in the state of thirds to do that .

•

The send pert is actwLtygettirp the firaefat

•

irstitwtim, the 6adirn an -y, for

whatever other

ncrha-iien of there which are ten, which is the flrntiel

part, to acxpt arid Lee that agin er-'s mot estimate to

get firacial assurance . As far As if* smsd part, we

cagult with firemial irstitutias ad I'LL jest

go

heck to the galefill exeipLe for enarpLe . In that cue

I thick we jested fifty, fifty some minim collars

worth of pblic debt for that project . I

worked

closely

with the tadirg agencies to verify the costs and

reate P oj~icre for three facilities ad the issue

of lord camp, That's a phlic agency. On private type

agcries, like a lad mtp, which it was at the time a

gr'cs iffeld lrrdfitl site aced tby a eieLL private

de+tilcper, he seekad

--

0

Where was that?

A

That buss in Lasalle Carry, Illirois . He

LINDA LANCE RFTSRT1wG --

847\5&$\691a

obtaining m 44xcpriete iretrurett for tirociat

72

23

Q

Ntm you say that,

yai mere in arnirg up with

24

---

1

2

3

6

ttxdu,aI n riryrolre aS w-LL as some mniCiPat

ns:itnteo

: ad e werkrrl cam those isaes also oloseLy

H H , ~ •wriaL Srrtituticre in

:tire that

sway

rrd Oettire the Tirti CiaL assume that he rrafd .

SO,

•

the

process kind of chases whether you're tatkirQ

public

or Frivate . Ard with the large pblicly traid

•

mnFalios we gererally are involved in the, tricks the

•

egireer's cost estimate or estimating the cost, is

working inside their internal pro forma . Each one of

them have a separate

mrodaL that they use so we wvk with

then irdividsally .

0

Is it fair to say that

you

really have m

irrdepth Wcwta~e of the

financial

assurance pocess as

for ea post-closure, curare ad pat-ctoraxe care? -

A

Well, I uSrstad had the cost estimates are

put don. I tr&rsthnd the different mechanisms . I'm

rot aai ecomnist

. I'm rot an wcuntant but I clearly

uTierstard

and

I have a tot of erperie -' in saline

With different institutions in getting thra* that

•

r87Jlatory hurdle .

0

Based on your emperie -ca as a

consulting

aeincer, is arranging for firwoial assurance for

•

Landfills, in other Words, with caaira up with a cost

. . :LINDA tAN1F .REPORTING ,--

. .847\~8

LINDA LANCE REFYRTING --

847\658\6918

13

15

grade

. AM we have to secure safe rotors, close the

facility with an ereineered cap and potentially develop

additional

storm water related facilities

. wk cam

LP

with gnntity estimates . We we a unit cast type method

•

to came ep with an estimated enstnstion cast for a

third party to core In and implarai that work . We then

do the same for post-closure care . After the facility

•

is closed, the owner or operator are rehuired to

maintain d esirre care for a period of

i{I

to 30 years or

more and that is monitoring costs, erosion repairs,

repairs to the top cap and

sedimentation basins . We

then develop a cost estimate for a third party to

perform that work

and

s,±mit all of that to the IEPA for

review,, and we have always gotten re

permits and got

thrcz i that prtee3s

.

0

1 woder if

-- did we skip a step? Be ase

the first thing you

mentioned

was prarature chance

cost

estimate and than a post-closure rare estimate . How

about, you kaw, say a planed ounce cost estimate,

would that be the same as a pmenetvre clesue or is that

a rut s- that you have to ge-aate as well?

A

A plaJt¢1 chosen cast ester ate?

0

in obier words, jest canirg LP With ctosr"

coats . Arid the may mesh I ask is hecaEe you just

11

12

2

3

L

5

6

7

15

6

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

1

2

3

A

It's the type of thing we do tut, you know, I

cant

speak for other u,- jLtirg ersireera . Some

mreultatts have more ca{soilities and e>jtrtise than

others .

0

Jest -- I would Like to cpiddy go throng,

the process, teal an your esperie-ce, of ha., --

of

romi g rp with a ocet estimate and in providing

fira-oial essrare . What I em thinking of specifically

is your interface with, in Illiroia, with ittirois EPA

in caning LIP with a cost estimate that ever)tody gees

m kw does that proms work?

A

Normally it's fairly straight forward In

Illirois . Illirois r>afJir a premature cLosre cost

estimate and that is, simply pit, that point in tine

where the Ladfi ll Would be most costly to close prior to

its closure . And the ergireer that's designing the

facility, in this case it wnJld to somebody like

ourselves,

estimate Woe, that World be gelretty . It's

at sore relatively early point in the lrrdfill's life

what there is -- noon the omsvatfm and waste is bald

LINDA L4MM REPORTING -- 847\658\6918

rrsatiawad a premature claque cost estimate that World

prthably be the most eJtpasive option

.

A

We talked about --

•

•

So, let me -- do you also hone to

-- rd

also coma up with a closure coat eatieate?

•

A Well, I don't think it's nee sserily

•

salethira

you

interact with the agency on baacse

facilities are closed as they're constructed rormally .

•

Q

How do you mean?

A

There's a firancial ircexiva ad goad

operating practice atutird that tacifiLls should be

closed as soon as practicable . You are eared to post

clssr cost estimates --' I'm sorry,

you

acs carts-ta,

and get same of that mxmy back if you close the

facility CIJickLy- I man fir every piece duet you

close, you receive that Money out of it, the closure

rust care.

•

Then you say closue, you near Like final

closure, in other Words, that portico of the Ladfill

would have everyttirg in place that it Imtd reed for

cleare?

A

Yes .

Q

Now

as far as workire With Illirois' IPA ad

gettire the nnhers apprLw d, and that's part of the

LINDA LANCE REFLRTING -- 8671658\6918

you

'I II.a.d ;a7 r-c chf feast tyr~. of firen.irfi

.

One is ?-iezte

14

sitimate aryl

they,

looklrs for the test or nayte

sarethirg that's n ccaptie-it way of n=tirg the

regalaticrs, is that romally the sort of thane a

ccrsuLtirg e-gireer rhs for a la-dfiLL client?

---

6

8

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

2

22

Z

24

Fr r~ Isn't

it? In a her ,nr'+ yo i

_,n''

I, et rant

puiclnnntvw . It i,.-

1

hn .L.J"o the

il. Lireis 134 i,r E xrral

A

Yea,

Q

Aid for all --

fir, say, prereture clcsere,

•

for cLoerro costs ad toe

pcct-clwse care?

A

Yes

.

•

Q

Had is that dt,e? Is it drat= always in a

•

permit

applicatiml

A

Wit, you brM, I thick it's also dale u r

a, by a cyaeit tree type piss, UA I thick

rornaily it's thrrugh a ptrnit aFplrcatiut .

•

So, for exarple, a Ladfill w,ul

.d be sedcirg

a dvelopmnt perirrnt or to open uF a trod new tadflLL

ad in its permit it World, it woutd in that permit

eFplicatim process would have per' thrash this,

estimating these coste for cI are a-d post-closre? Is

that acurate?

A

Yceh, I thick that's p~daniretely the way

it's doe

.

•

gray

. I an going to get a littto

more

sp~ific of What we are here far Which is the Morris

Community La,dfiLI case

. You are familiar with the

r oirg or with the else that the State has against

LINDA_ LANCE REPrRTING ---

867\658\6918

BY !R . GRANT :

• 24th thrash 27th

. Are you ptanirg m

testifying at that hearing or have you been asked to

testify at the hearing in the case?

A

I

have rot .

•

okay.

A

If I had -- did,

I forgot .

•

may-

A

I dn't rcsall as 1 sit here

.

MR . IELSIEN

: He will be asked. He was

asked to testify What he tha4tt it was earlier

. I gave

him eartier dates

.

BY Nit

. MANT,

a

dt, okay. Arid are you aware that's --

that

the pupcse of that hearing is for the PoLlutim Control

Board to tide What, if my, relief to grant the State?

A

lhrhcm .

• Am you

aware that the State's arse has to do

with the failure to provide ai-gnte financial

ass rarce

for the Morris Community Larrifill?

A

Yes .

•

AM ycu'm familiar with the Morris o-mm.nity

Ladf i i t?

A

Yes,

LINDA LANCE REEPMUNG --

847\(58\&918

19

hkrr leit .7 Carmnity Lcrdfill -- for C aiL'rity

tar}amyl Ctsprty s-d the City of Nurris?

A

sores 1 am .

,vc yw've hen cskai to teati=")y at the

hearrr.J

in this case?

A

Yes

.

•

Are yon

acre that the liability has already

•

tun fold toy the Pollution control

Beard in favor of

•

the State?

A

cm certain s~ccts .

•

Are you aware that -- cell, first off, are

y ru aware of the hearing that's sancUted for October of

this year

A

No .

•

Okay.

FR . HELSIE?l : I hsrer't had a chance, to

tell him that . Why dm 't

you

tell him When it starts .

I can't avow remember.

!R

. (RANT :

I can't r m i either . I

think it's the lost week in October. I think Tuesday

thrur#n

Friday are the dates to be kept r{nar, the last

week of mtcber .

MS

. l3'AYSW : Maybe the 23rd .

R .

w L182 : 24th .

LINDA LANCE

lipmuma -- V.7\655\6918

•

I'LL ask }w a little bit abort year

familiarity with the Morris Wmtnity Ladfill . You can

•

just tell me when, and I'm done Loddrg at the period

•

from 2000 to the presort, ikon

you first becaie aware of

potential p-obtets or Whet you first became involved

•

with the marris Caw pity Ladfill?

A

Beirg in the bsiress I thick I'll take

liberty and maybe go heyvd 2000 bar_

se,

1 don't know

exactly what recollections were More 2000 end Whet

Ware after

.

•

That's fire.

A

I'm in the Usirass every day ad have some

awareness of every facility in the state

. Morris

Comtnity . Lsdfitt is well Ioon to me before I was

mptoye3 by the City of Morris . I u

.*asterd ifro their

cuetrnar base .as . I .rdestad that

they were being

gernted by CLC and the, far Ladc of a better term, I'll

call thorn die Pruim brothers . Nd I was In the Late

'BO's writing the solid Waste pLan for Grirdy County so

I Gram acre of not only the facility bit its volumes,

its cyaerat caipliarm record

. I Wow that it wee cared

•

by the city

. I krsm it was operated lH a private

•

entity. so, there was protebly more

than a ge erul

aware a of

precisely what vas going m at that

LIMA LANCE REWING -- 847\658\61918

---

6

7

2

3

5

6

7

B

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

foci (ire, I ray haw war bee, ako d, ad I don't

recall e;S I sit here, I my hew eve, Is~n asked by a

fxiuote rrn]zrt? tc da an

'ircrrental aiclit of this

site to -;ka 4,ste . Sh cb a lot of ua# for large

axpratios that ask s to loot at facilities before

they direct waste to than . And I've looked at most of

the facilities in the state in that respect and I just

don't recall

whether w- did that in the 'HO's or rot as

I sit here . I was with another mwpay at the time and

I wvikfi't have these records with me .

•

Now lee went

you working with Gnldy County

on their solid waste plan? Do $11 recall?

A

You kr .M, I don't recall precisely.

Developing a solid waste plan is totally about an

ei,teeth north, at that tine a two year rxatlsem so, I

world say it was p-d

:ebly along those liras .

•

would you have, wand you have been aware of,

say rhfle you were dhirr that solid waste plan, aborl

Projecting c a ity for waste disposal at the Morris

rrnmliity Landfill?

A

I probabLy was at the tine, yeah .

•

Now abut permit applicatios, world you have

taken a look at permit applications fits for the Morris

ca mnity ladfill dirirg that period?

LIMA LP$E REPORTING -

847\658\6918

A

I ors to irnestigate the irapetion that was

dote by the State, Audi was in actdner I thick of that

year, and to evaluate whether there's validity to it,

how

serious

was it, and what the operator needed to do

.

•

Do yap retetber what that Inspection was

aSart1

A

Yeah, I have it right here if I nay refer to

it .

•

Lii, sure . And if y i con identify the date

of it .

A

This is an attacfnent to our work ptceeHlrg

letter Midi is dated Decater 14 frun Hirshaw

Galbertam who asked is to Look at the attached

prrdctiai by the state of Illinois rich included

irspectim reported photos by the inspector ad that is

what w raeived and were asked to look at . It's an

irsFectian that's dated October 20, 2004, ad it

irduded violations for faihre to take renedial action

viler

a ladfilt post-closve care, rmirtenate,

and

irspectian of the final ewer and vegetation, and it had

an ap,ing List of violations, which I'll refer to, that

irclirkd leachate rmnitorirg, grunci.eter

ninitorirg,

gas rnitorit8, and clean, post-clcaae are firaciaL

aswr t&

LINDA LANCE HEFLRTING

-- 847\55\W18

21

1

A

PrhaLy not, you kr

n+, it's

rot realty a

2 I part, a raessary integral part of the planning .

3 i

0

As fer

to working on h.f`

raL'f of t11e City f

4

hbrris for the Morns Cmmnity Lardfill, - at Mat-Fiiiht

5

did you hecme involved, rot riccmsariLy specifically

6 for this case but say retained by the city

of

Morris, to

7

do estinetes or too do any work at the Morris camLnity

8 1

LadfiLL?

9

A

My rest work at the "-is Cmmnity Ladfill

10

as it pertains to this case really coeurred in Decarher

of 2004

. 1 got a call fral, a joint call fran the Meytr

12

ad Mr

. Helsten that they had been notified of an

13

irsFectim that revealed care prablam at the landfill,

14

ML led ore ad waned to retain ne to help adi-ess or

15

instigate these problems 1 Shirk weld probably be a

16

better way to put it .

17

0

At the time was this, was Shaw Erwironmtal

18

the carpay at that tine?

19

A

Yes, I was with Shaw ErwiruTrentat ad

20

rpaeifically I got a latter ra fran Chuk Ralston data

21

Decarber 14, 21104 . I salt then a professional services

222

aareanatt right abort that tine, so it was in Decarkz,-

23

of 2004 that I was retained .

24

0

Nat specifically ware you retained to do?

.

LINDA LANCE

TING -- 847\8\6918

G

Can you

-- can we tae a look at this? I

don't wait to take a look at your letter lot

as far as

the inspection?

Mt

. IELSIEN : Let me see what the cover

letter says . The only thing -- wall, this are is --

•

here's rM di lame with kewire the co.'- letter ni

•

u,lese eerybo4y waives any claim that if I give )Ku

this letter I waive the attormy/cliett privilege .

MR . 4RANf : No, I'm asst arias about

Wo the inspector

was .

MS . rfY`O1 : Make copies of die report

m4`e

.

Mt . IELSTEM : As Mr . Moora's covet letter

sinply says the mayor is ra4 atirg that Mr . Mrese

initiate a stidy as to what matter -- Wat steps reed to

be take, bit I'll give Mr . Moat Lade the Letter .

Mi . WANT

: I neon this isn't really Neat

the deposition is that so se

don't

wait to

spend

too

mall time

on

It

. Clarissa, if you wart, I can fird a

rte/ of that ad sad it to you later on .

W . LNAYSN : Maybe we cal make a copy.

TIE .

ulTwSS ..

--we

can jl t . aeke . than here .

Ml . iIl lT : I don't reed to attach it as

a, F,diibit or aythirn .

LIMA LANCE REPIRTING -- 847\VSa18'

22

---

3

TPle rcpiet of then,

F5 . GZA'(SCN : That wtuld to great if you

dn't mind .

(Exhibit No . 5 was marked for

identification on 8-2-!15

.)

BY FR . IYrANT :

Q

I've got what's teen marked ae Edribit Ninber

5 . Is this the inspection report you're

.

talking aawt?

A

Yin .

0

And can You just generally dscribe what sort

of problems m that problems were disclosed by the

irn,ntim report

that

Yet+

were askod to be involved

with or to look into?

A

I has asked to take a took at the alleged

violations in the ir£{etial report, get Lip to speed ad

then ultimately I has asked to advise the city whether

•

there was any relevace or health and safety crrcorrw

attadred to these alleged violations . And the alleged

violation, I thick 1 meitiawd before, is failrre to

monitor gas, ester, and this was ardor the pat-ctosure

care category, 22 .17

.

And

than it had an attachment

LINDA LANCE REPORTING --

847\658\61318

nearly 35 feat in length

.

Q

share did you get the files frail

A

The ILlirois EPA . lk had same of the file;

•

already in-heat barase we had F0I'd, F-U-F, filed a

•

Freaktn of Infornetim Act rmq.rst sometime earlier for

•

another reason, ed we refi led that rdgast at sate

•

point, probably in December or January, December of 2004

•

or Jetery of 2015 . I dn't recall when.

•

•

Did yes meet with anybody from, any engineers

who were working for Camanity LadfiLl ramp

A I

personally

did rot . 1 sent rYprcseitstiv~

down there ad we may have rot them lot rot

pJrpcsefuLty . lk didn't schedule a rrretirg

wits, their

engineering fine

.

•

was their ewmering firm

Erwrira-neital

Engineering at that tine? Do yes recall?

A

I don't la-a+ if it wren lvdrsse .

The

irdividraL project madder is a ma, by

the ram of

McDermott . For ankle he was with Artiers ad the, at

some point he Left acid I dich't ksrw ecactly when he

Left, so .

•

Las Mr . McDermott the crc who you mat with or

repraehtatives of Shaw mat with?

A

I don't recall any of us meeting with him

.

LIWA LANCE REPORTING --

847\658\6918

27

3 ' 1kct :c-aJe-

ad it had to do with CaRarirg, cover

4

ri~aeriaL<, a_-sim gullies . It had to do with teatime

5

rmnitrv-irg, Srariowater monitoring, gas monitoring, and

6

firvriat acuraca .

7

0

l shirk ya said that you got the letter in

8

Decaiber of 2U74

. when did you

t or then did you

9

become retained by the city?

10

A

We

became retained in December of 2+704 .

11

0

That did yJ do after you became retained?

12

A

wb

had to get the file . lk had to get the

73

file in its complete package . We visited the site.

14

Cbeiasly, we met with the eagle at the site . We net

1s

with die city. The city was basically traare, in m/

16

opinion, of what was goirp at at the site . The

17

aerator, at lost the person cperstirg the site at that

18

tine, egged to jtat lack the resnrc~ to implement

19

aLt of the things and,

yw

iao+, to aided tp ultimately

20

chtainirg every 35 feet of historical record an the

21

site.

22

0

when you say 35 feet, do ytu Beat a 35

Z3

foot --

24

A

The files put in file foldtts institute

LINDA LAN RERRTING -- 847\66:8\6918

Lk may have net him just brief Ly bit we cedar net him in

the pa pose of obtaining

a lot of infonreticn that I

recall . I never did .

0 Did yes meet with

anybody

from tamLin &

Assodates?

•

A

I dcWt

rs>all rhcd- we did or rot . I did

rot .

•

0 Do you recall meeting with Richard

Schweirkert?

A

I

Imt the rare but I mar --

I don't recall

mrEtiry with him

fair

this prpse.

•

After you reviewed the file, what action did

yam take?

A wk eemtelly made the arcttsicn that in

certain instances the IEPA had valid cawerrs in the

area of

--

•

You're referrng to Exhibit 5?

A Yes . In the area of late monitoring, I

thick that they for the most part were right that the

Le4chate mo honing

was rot berg cord ted in

aaordarce with the permit . In the area of grolrrA.ater

ms..imrirwn, I a1r~EdTth the IS)A

IA that they ware in

fir.t rut d-.irg all the gra.rdrater monitoring that they

are rjired to do as well as the gas monitoring . In

LIWA LANCE REPORTING -- 847\65811918

'C,

FR-

UELSTEN

: kit, it - -, roh,Tont

.

It is

die thre°hold of his irnmLverrsx . The mayor was

5cl r erae y ~j u,,-r d wham he ss!.'

tine nrrrr- Do

Au want

2`

I

1

with shat 1 thick they referred to us ageirp violsticna

2 I

,kii,dh is in the tack of the report after the

---

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

the area of ercsicn control, Mat I saw and Mat we ear

alt there, there was sere work that reerhl to he done

Wt all in all it wasn't that critical

. It wa n't a

•

si niticalt issue anj r

of it paai cry real threat

to the pblic health In my feeling . And in the area of

firaciat eae&race, I thadit that the financial

•

essnasce estimate was ernpleteLy off bast.

Q

okay, let's

--

raw that it roctiat retort

that was p-cwided to ya, the 10-20-04 irrspscim

resort, did that have any, set any violatias for

financial assLru ?

A

It Said under page fear of the att

Roini rtneml IX, right rear the Deck i f y'a will,

se:c d to the Lest pv-- .

a

ch, okay. I've got it .

A

so, yes, it did,

a And jest goirg to that vtkr Rorelrvleral

IX, I see condition IX.1, Rarsn IM, I asstne that's aa

penait condition but I'm not sure

. It respires renewal

of eccass waste, revision of the cost estimate for the

reyv L of waste, and than in the text Lerrgralit it says

reerires respordmts to adJnst the cost estimates for

cLovAre, post-clerwae and corrective action . i s that

what ya're talking about i,han t'a're talking ahoy

LIMA LANCE REPORTING -- 847'458\6918

31

29

A

Just thrcteh my cork

on other LadfiIIs, rot

•

on this perticuler ladfill that I recall, ad I was

•

doing work fn and nut of Gtn* Cony . But w far

•

this particular issue, I Just didn't hae any

ranlLectirn of previous knowledge of the site and

•

specifically the firsciat asstrwce I can't raatt

.

•

Q

so, prior to 2004 you didn't know the wont

•

of firedial assurance that was respired?

•

A No . I moon if I did at Me tine, I chl't

rsaLL it . There are pbticatius that Sometimes you

can see It In different reports, bit I may have seen it

add rot re®lled it .

a

I aseum that when

you

-- %JIM

Yes

say yes

reviewed the file that yw revissi the permits, the

Sigmt(ptwretic) patents for the lax)fiLt?

A

Lhrhun.

Q

And the chore ad post-ciesuure tier

re}uiretmts that are contained in those permits?

A

yes .

a And Joan I talk about the permits, I'Ve got

than here if you welt to take a look at than, but it's

2000 -- I thirk it's 20110-155-LRI . As a matter of fact,

let me not ggs the permits I am talking alum tecare

these are the only ones really I thick nay be irrvolved

LIMA LANI REPORTINr -- P47\658\691 8

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firsn_iat searace?

.A

Yet .

Q So, it ± ai't sp-iticslly mattion failure

to paid financial acstrat, tut really just talks

atrztt issue'=s that wild lo' related to firacial

assure,,,?

•

A

weLt, the last sentercx says no, tCplication

has been filed since the issiace . 19~ t'a're

•

correct in that kit titer the headlr® it says closue,

post-c(osure care and firerciat aerti-ace

.

0

sole . 19.asc this is a good time to get

into the estimates of fire-ciol essJ-e-re. I thick

)'O-J

testified or stated that t'a're famliar with the

fire-vial assurxce regii~disits, haw the y're gaeraterl,

hew they're coordinated with the Illinois EPA permits,

and that sort of thing . Prior to, say, 2004 were you

aware of the am.nt of finacial ass-irate regAred for

the Morris rarrhnity Landfill?

A

No .

Q And did you have ay femlierity with the

permitting process in the '90's wfiere the finerciat

asa.re, turners were generate!?

A

Yea.

•

And haw did

yes

low abaA that?

LINDA LANCE REPORTING --

847AE58\6918

with --

A

Are you talking ab3R the caret permitted

firs -vial aessrate?

Q

Yes

. Yeah, the two permits that I'll he

talking ab .A: are 2000-156-LFM -- let's sne-

A

I think these are it . I jet took the

Liberty to coq whet I believe are the permitted

prarature post-closure rare cost estimates for parcels A

ad B .

a Okay . And what I'll be talking tart is the

ae I just rrs,tiarad which Is pannt

minter,

just for

shorthad pirpcae I'LL ®LL it 156 is for Parcel B, and

permit No . 2000-155-LIM, which I'LL refer to w 155, for

Parcel A, or

maybe I'LL just say the permit for Parcel A

or Parcel B .

A

okay.

Q

But sires there's teen a molar of permits

there, this is the at that I'm referring to . AnI,

%W,

did yesj review the Two permits, the one for A ad the

are for B in 3104 char

you

were lcckirg at the file?

A

It p cbebly was in 2005 by the time 1

r vAwed it but yes

.

Q

And the clasue and pest-cLcare ra}Jireietts

that wars contained in the permits?

LIMA LANCE REPORTING --"847\658\6918

---

A

Ys .

a

And

then also the =-melt

of

f

weeded

rssurercu that ~ a:rteirfd

to the

Ls?

A

Yes .

•

Not gettirg hack to that you mid, you say it

Las ync cpinim at the tine that the accent of

firanciel a'awaP= Los

higher

that ro?ctd to be or --

A

Wkll, I thud,t that the eFp'vcdl that was

ua1 to develop the e-g,rcer's rest tstinate Las (a) ,f

ht was implemented, would rot r

sar,Ly ha protective

of pybLic health, safety ad ieltare ;

(n; us really rot

a p-ectiwt epp-mrh to the e,gircerinl <+,atlages at

the site, and in fact there were inch better ways to

e},rusdt sw ring the site the, were pogo ed ad

ultimately approved in t

se permits . And I thick ft

was really just a result of reqj[atjon Interpretation

that drove them

as cpposad to thing that was best for

that particular piece of gnrd

.

•

I wonder if

you ca, tell me What spocifically

you tha4rt maybe Las improper as far a I nee, the

arocnt of finaciat assuraces sligitty in excess of 17

•

million cbLLars for both Parcel A and Parcel 8 and

•

that's both clretue firucial assurare and post-closure

firan al ~ . What eta,

cs in that, if

yaii

LINDA LANCE REPORTING

-- 847\658\6918

model . Please tell me that that is

.

A

The regulations spire that the a-uineer

damelcp a grvrthster imact asS 5llert, and that

grardater asse",eit is a computer model that is a

valwbte tool for an agireer . Too often titres the

tint.

i s

misused ad misinterpreted ad it la-tnes a little

bit of wag the dog- In this pariwLar arse I think

that .

happened

The model is meant to take the precise

tksign of the facility ad insert that design into the

precise hydrteeologic regime at that site ad mr dot the

behavior of the ladfilt ajar time

. We do that m carry

site , work on

ad we're modeling every day.

Ahat has

happened is sore people have

gotten, haw Lost sight of

it as a tool .

In this particular case, I don't think

the model --

let's go back to that the merletirg is, so,

that's realty what it's rremt to do

. In Portal A the

model failed which Beers the agircer or the operator's

egirm-

i uwble to get the merlon to pass, I dn't

Ire+ if that's reressari ly a component of his rear

,

•

his capability, or the natural e

.rdititrs .

I have rot

choked that-

•

Q

Wren

Yti

say

•

A

•

I'm rot go] rg to intercept you bet maybe you

LIMA LAND REPORTING

--

e47\4cS\691

9

35

mall, were you specifically disareeirg with?

A

VirtuaLLy every

Jam I'LL give you

a cr„pLe of example;s of rot only did I disagree, with the

atntity r:f

materlats that were estimated tutA the flat

work that

, .r

to be co doted . I'll Just give ynr a

cmple of examples

. The permit for cLosue rAcpred

that the o -i

filL in parcel, ad I here I pet this

riJ,t --

Q

It's Parcel s

.

A

Pacet B

mould nerd to be relocated and the

only space on this facility that had a{acity to a crept

Parcel B

.r-fill

Las in Panel A. Interestirgty

a-ci4i, the e ety reviewed the grardster

impact model

for Parcel B red it p>sad

. The agaey revnewed the

grard.eter impact mtx1al for Parcel

A and it failed .

so, they were askirg es to remove ewes fill, just

height rot area, from Parcel B in an area that passed

the model, pick it tp ad one it to Parcel A to an area

that doesn't pass the model . It would be completely

•

intuitivelsic .l to preteetion of the pbtic health,

safety, and welfare .

•

Q it --

A

Canter intuitive I should say .

•

• Yeah . Help ere cut with the grvudlater

LINDA LANCE REPORTING

-- 847\656\6918

LINDA LANCE REPORTING- --'847\658\6918

can e>plain .

A

lien it pass, it shows generally that

you're rot impacting grardater within the zone of

•

attestation Lhich is 100 feet frame the waste at 100

years tine . That's what we insider passing, simply

•

par- The isac becomes if y¢Pre required to do Inputs

or a sensitivity aalysis that takes to more erp dais

than it argot to and those irpts no tenser represent

aythirg close to r®L world caditims .

Now let's go back to this particular site . In this

particular site the veers -- I'm sorry, the operator's

ergirwr was unable to get the model to pass

. Wry, I

dn't IenN . 1 did look at several input perimeters for

the mn&l, ad I da+'t hat ieve that the model in any

way

represents the conditions on

the grard cut theme .

Bcca ,5e he was cable to get it to pass, ad atthadr I

did rot participate in these negotiations with the

State, ay e,Terfat tells ma that they pretty

mrh just

±fautted or some people might say throe Lp their hands

•

ad said, welt, if you agree to, in this partloiLar

cae, pip the grcud.eter

ad treat the grmrdeter,

•

nit the Leadnte, aresrd the site for 100 years, we'll

•

give ytxr your Permit . so, there are a tot of

crpfa-dirg in cry belief ad meaty more thrud,out the

36 'n w

---

site, that we reed to talk about,

fee is just the =let

Does The nc&L rgres nt real

.ertd ctrditios cut et

the site? NC, I

don't telieie it r*i .

Is

It The'

Steire'C r,~,f.reitiLity to meet It for The ~reretor?

No . Ltry tfc operator those to m That tlry did, I

don't

6 I

ken+. I wasn't there .

7

Havirg said that, I've also read sore of the PCs

8

decisiris, ad the PM decisions seeitd to be fcased on

9

pnpirg teachers

. But if yw so all the way tack to the

10

mil and there this cams free, it's not acttelly

11 pooping leadiate

. It's piping grwzi.ster ad treating

12

grortisteu-that are the big ruibers in these clrsdre

13

oust estityptes .

14

0

Yw're talking alert --

15

A

I'll Hive you just ere e>ca,pLe of why the

16

,mdel is rot reflective of reality . The Brardeter

17

that flows uckr the nodal -- or I'm sorry, vide the

18

tadfilt is rep-esaited as at pattiwtar enter in the

19 permit

application.

That ore parareter I have

measured

20

in the Last year since ny .irtvolwrmit end that are

21

partiaAar ranker that I tas able to check is off by a

22

factor of forty

tiosard tiles .

II

0

Are yw talking atuut direction or wlure of

24

flan or --

LINDA LANCE REPORTING -- 847\658\t918

37

39.

9raxLaterw beta+ . it has to do -- one of the

rnrpoixrits that you look at is the footprint or the

ogisure to the grad beneath . And baase we're rot

•

Increasing the footprint as a result of that overfill, I

don't believe there is any mawsurnble difference in the

•

two- Ma-vver, odunim uses and

swim it is rot

without its issues also .

0

Do yaw recall when w started this way you

'en-?

talking abut the total wmrit of financial.

sssL r to at the earthLl ant why you thabit it n6y be

excessive, end the first ewraiple that you isd was the

overheight . Do yon recall what coipront of

the total

financial assurance

re- pireaert was? And if you can

just tell is what you are referring to .

A

Ian referring to what I beLieit is the

ourrent, rghenmittei prarattre vend pet-clostre rare st

estimates for Parcel A ad Parcel B, end I can't find it

right now .

Ml . LRANf : Do

you

Ltcw rhtrk?

WR

. IELSIEN : I krw how mrh It is

.

NR . GRAM

: I rb ton, I'm watering If

we tai save you sore time .

TIE WITNESS

: I can't find it,

W . [ROJ.T : It's X50,000 L thirk .

LINDA LANCE RFPCRTING -- t!4-A658\691

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A

Rate, sew rate irder the LotcflilL . So

--

You thick --

A

-- chacire ewe factor is aT irefprhfriate

Lay to Look at the math .

The attire M~dtl rot to Le

reevaluated if that were going to be

necessarily

p-otectin of the pblic h®lth, safety, ad welfare-

But I thick that at this point It's Just more of at

acaienic ~ise than solviro the reel rrblen .

Q

When you first remised the model, you were

talking shat tote relo®tial

. And I'm assumrg that

you thcs ,t the idea of waste relocation fran a place

there the mcdet was sggestel it wild be in crnpliarce

or could pass versus mrn'irg it to soreplaoe that

was

--

there it was .c.estiaheble ,m not a good idea . I assure

that's that you were talkirg

--

A

Welt, I don't think moving the taste in this

particular instance, knowing that I know now, I don't

think nu'irg the waste is goirg to protect the pblic

health, safety, and welfare. Remdxr that I said is

that fiat we are talking about here is an otertheiit

issue ad rot a Lateral spr sd beam we're rot

•

increasing the footprint of the LadfiLt as a resilt of

•

that overfill, if you wilt . Art rally that Landfill

footprint doesn't present ay inaeesed risk to the

LINDA LAMP REPORTING

-- 847\65816918

Mi . IELSIEN : It's arena 950, 950 to

W

.

GRANT

: led I

thick it was like $2 a

yard to prove it was pit in the pemut application .

M2- LELSIBI : if we're asking steteirsnte,

remltection free wy k'oulaabe in this case --

TIE WITLESS : I still can't find it .

AR- IEtSLEN : -- is that there was an

estinete of 300,000 pens cubic yert6 of merfitL and

there era a re,oraL, ed,uetim atd caravel mat fig"

of $2 per atic

yard

attached to that, sligrtty over

that, ergo,

you

rtes TV

with 9550,

1975,000 .

M1

. RANT : I thick the amtM of

override we're altars talked eb it is 475,000 obit

yards . That was in a permit app . from stale 1996 on, so

that's prt6ahty --

ML . IELSTEN : That tauld be the ninth

then .

BY MI . GRANT :

0 Let's just assure that It was 9950,000, So,

paint back to the total finacial aseraoe anent, if

yur opinion vus, for maiple,

the aerheidit did not

reed to be mNed or was a had is to 'rove it that that

would redre it by 9{50,0002

LINDA LANCE REPORTING

8474Y$fi918

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A

If

ya1 oaarL t+ot I

bP e•

Kith

the t.o L-cks

ctbic yard .

1'w JLet ic .e th atmin t1s test

ic'-t

yeah

at

CSrcz sites cc ire exam`"an'tr50 to

q

1

think at the tine e+ery&xiy ias asking

a n

z it, but I mink, 1 telieve it's true that

cverybdy, we jwt sort of settled m that ad that was

accepted even tharft mere ie, if I ra. 11, a di_P'te

as far as the

acb ~ of the 52 per obi r

. yard tc neat

it

. But I teLisve, I thick we osn pretty mod, agree

that the atrp--ovrt that was put into the financial

asssaxe total was 4950,000

.

haA

I rrcclL that

. I jret for sane: ream cir't

ve it in fruit of

or

M .

0

So if,

for exarple, if that was r-edrS, if

that has raroved form the total amrit of firaciel

ass+raee, it w.iLd

be scnethirm in slight excess of 16

miltim dollars?

A

It

yai were to eccvpt those mat °Sttrrates,

y .

Q

Sire . As far as -- let r ask you, what

other eleTe tts in that ant, in the financial assurance

arum th you believe are w*lg?

A

The grurdeter pop and treat systen for a

LINDA LANCE REPORTING

-- 847\658\6918

be pnpcd ad treated as well

. If you're talking abut

treating

--

abet ooLlecting and putting a, effective

leadiate

collection

system, vmitorirg that

--

or not

nn,itorirg it but collecting leachate ad treating that

for a hot

years, how would that charge the eat as

cfpoeed to grecrd .eter antsict of the -- there wore

only -- let ne back cp a Little Lit

. when you're

talking abort grxarrlwater, you're talkirg atmA

grardeta-artside of the ladfill?

A

yes .

w

Okay.

How far a,tsicle of, say, tie*e waste

bxrKiary, the waste dispret boudary was the plan?

A

The deign is a little atrigus on that . I

n-r1 tell you fran haw I interpret what they're proposing

to do is to pop ad create a

cone

of 4pressim aroud

the laelfill so that grarxtater will always fla in MO

degrees tee rte the landfill, whirl,

nasally

valid

reglire you to be within that zcre,of attenstim within

a husk& feet or so of the LacifilL,

I

don't thick

that's a good ides at all

. I don't think it's -- you

krcww, I look at this us, I gates, and different than

sore of the decisions ad promedirw that I've road

. I

think the nut inpurta,t thing to d-, is take whatever

money is avai hole ad form w,c, that's vmethirg the

LINDA LANCE RETMING -- &7\658\691 8

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Iani-

d ,urns . I teen .hat the big cost rrtd I tkn't

_cork ,t frvtce. ay nz_, .r-f L

. irt,trctim, to'

1 : c

p. l

alth . I d nc Fee

tpL a resiL1nL eift,,t

of tl

. : wee- In Fr,L r. r crud: a creel fiat

russa.i

. so,, let's escna

--

srei I thirk I do have that

cast snivel in here . I saw it a nnrute Ex . $101,000 a

year or armrdirg to than 10 .1 million ctllars, I ran

think of prttebLy a

hundred thingr as I sit here that

vyld

be Letter to spend 10-1 million dollars on

than

parpirg the grurdeter at that site and treating it .

The grnrdeter is very poor gality grnrdeter now

.

It is in a heavily irdstrialized area

. It's scrrOrdd

by existirg permitted ladfills . it's got an area, an

old coal mired area that has historical dnpirg on it

since the 1940's . It's at test a Class IV greuxLater .

If the -- ti-, water that we're n

irg and nnnitorlrg

in ny opinion is rot Potable . There are no grardeter

users in the vicinity of the site . Other areas m the

site, if there is new deekpnent, can Er served by

•

nu,iciPal .eter which goes right ly the front of the

site . so, pnpirg ad treating poor gallty gnxrv eter

is a poor way to go.

•

O okay. Lkll, Let's talk tot treating

leachate

63

case the reguLatia-s re#re that Lead,ate

LTWA UJKI RPFO TNG -- &7\658'1118

cast wilt

decide,

bit let's take that money ad sped

it in the met efficient, jrecticable way that has the

Lest, biggest, largest positive in{act for the

crr'i,r.nun

. And as far as my diet\ is canerred this

is targayers' nvxy

.

•

0 okay . Let me jrat ask yw about the

spaifics . I uwiestard --

hopefully we' LI get into

that . Out a3 far as -- let na first ask yaw, when you

say a krdrsd feet eotsids the tadfill, do you men a

hudred feat outside the waste barthry'

A Again, I ckn't thick the edge, was real

specific acct that bit that's rmrtretly what I would

see .

C

Okay

. So, it could be within the actial

property of the Landfill Lit still be, hit outside of

the waste bardon,?

A

[tit you'lt also be irdeirg a flaw from the

landfill at the sere tine .

a

1 cndastad . Now is it uwmca to rilre

•

a ladfill owner to create a tore of attenuation so that

the lea--h

:_te dasn't have the possibility of flowing

A

Nn, but I don't think that's ccreiatvtt with

ekat we jwet talked a`a,I[. we're toLkirg mat apples

LINDA LANCE REPOTING -- 867\65B\CA18 -

•

art?

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n1 area .

Q

I thca_g it -- that's whet I tin fr you were

ck-,c;rlhim ad I'll ask yal . wham I say it's rot

urorrcn, I net for ls41ste trestrwnc systes,

lag-term teachate treatment systems, isn't It grntralLy

preferred to have, to preveit a regatiw preaare so

that the leadiate wilt rot -- wiLL be flwirg irwerd

toward ; the L>3chate collection system as opxsed to

our ard?

A

Leachate collection system, remvirc the

Leachate frcm the LadfIIL and treating the leachate

safely ace it's remv red from the laclfiLL, is an

aR.rcpriate, safe thing to do but that's rot the saw as

treating grartieter award the perimeter of the .

landfill . And there's a significant

differace,

especially when you assure that a Prod cap is applied,

in the valve of leatd,ate treatleit

. floreo e , I thirk

the hoard got that wrong also . I thirk there is a

mistn±rstardirg of the facts m the grand of what is

beirg doe where ad by whom when it cares to teachate

treatment .

• The tesdwate treatnawt is really the largest

single portion of the, of the cLosrre cast, isn't that

titre, the 10.1 million I thiri7

LIMA LAKE

REPORTING -- 847\65816918

LIMA LANCE REPORTING_- 847\rl\6918

47

45

A

I agree

.

•

In general it'ss a regrirsrswt that ladfills

•

in both ctosre rd prat-closure rot impact the

grardater outsid- of the waste burdary ; is that

accurate?

•

A 0.msirle of the tame of attaratim

.

•

The zone of etteruatim .

•

A Lhich is a httdred feet from the waste

handhry in three dimensions.

•

so, what you're saying is the regulations

require that aside

of the zone ettetatim grardater

may not be inpacted and that's the purpose of the

leadwate trtntme,t?

A

Lkll, it's more than Jtst inpoot terse

everything we c impacts but Let's just say does not

materially degrade- You can impact it at a Level that's

so slow it's trnr~rabte tut you might still be

tednicatly inpactirg it

. But there are requirements

within the

regulations

that dertrstrate wbet .Lmel that,

for lack of a wetter term, irpsct is at lacd

. But you

have to meet that

paint at a hudre3 feet from the

Ladfi I I

.

0

If -- a q s~a' to collecting gnzrtieter

that is aitside of the tae of etteratim a far as

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23

A

I f yaw here to irtptetrent the plan that's

permitted .

•

Yes .

A

It's gn--wrdchter-tretrrrnt at 10.1 million.

•

Okay

. And for a hutd-ad years, correct7

A

Yes .

•

I nW have asked this q.estim

but I don't

10-M

that he really get to it

.

As q :Qosed to pumping

ad treating teechute if it has done appropriately as

ggzsed to grotroketer outside the lattfill, and when I

say the ladfi ll Let's talk abort the waste tnndary, as

far as grnrdater outside the waste knrdory, as far as

pnpirq and treating the lead,ate -- and make we better

ckfire teams here . 1,haw I'm talking about Leadiste, I'm

talking tot water that's nn anon throtdi the watee

itself or close sea j to the waste itself that it's

inpacted by particulate matter or sane sort of dissolved

sr6staee that might be in the waste in

collecting

that,

is that pretty mach -- is that how you describe

leschete?

A

Yes

.

Q whereas, grvrrrteter world Joust

be

dvteer

is in either the shattw or the deep aquifer araJrd the

lardfiLL7

treating, collecting and treating the leadiate within

the zone of attenuation for a bidred yeas, do you haw

an

estimate of what that ®t would be?

A

Again, I thick we've got a mix-tp of terns

.

0

I thick we

do

.

A The leactwte that's within the Landfill

LIMA LUKE RStRTING -- 847\6581&18

cr>mr.

GrwtLeter is a m water whetimer it's in the

zone of attenuation, and strrandcd by son l particulate

a whether it's grus4eter that's oAsiS the tore of

attenuation ad still drrurdad by soil particulate .

he

area

of g'nrtleter within the Ixrbtd foot zone or

the zone of attenuation has the regulatory ability to

be -- have a higher level of impact than that

grotrd-ater

a=ide

of the one hudred foot sane . so, i

thick, I hope that helps with what my vderstadirg of

the different terms are .

Wit

-- right .

LJeter ad soil particulate within the tore of

attewatim Is rot teechate,

Q

Okay. Prd the plan that was sti'znitted that

you thiric was rut

--

A

ustel .

Q

-- a rut Wt I thagtt alt, in realer kcvrls,

the me that's referenced in the permit and has the

Q

A

LIMA LANCE RE'PCRTING -- -&7jb58W18

48

46

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2D

z1

71,

23

24

flrtrraal asurace, rile T1,1 ri axca r. xvLmce, I

think you referred to it as a gram ater tretrent?

A

That's what

1t' .,

calsi

.

11~sL's rot that 1

refer to, that's That it's -aL'aj .

Q

Ckay . Based m yon rxkaat .riJirg of the

•

currently permttted fret-clcEi t a;re pL,n, hat could

•

it be treating! In other wont --

A

I'll Le hit with yw, the volui of

doanents that I

he,e

are Less than perfa-tly clear ad

consistent- But, e6ain, basal m lrrkirg at then ad

based m my own toper iere, it :{puss to me that the

1FPA said you cant get your nder to p=iss .

Ard this

he

-- I'm

speculating hare, you carrot get ytcir matt to

pass, so You can't get Your permit . If

You

wait to get

your periit with this particular dnsim the way you're

nmirg your partialar moot, we want you to treat,

pap and treat grnrd.ater and that njtd give the IEPA

the ability to say you're rot imps ..-tire gronketer

bend a hundred feet Wane- ynu're pnpirg the

grardster before m sartr

.here around that zee in

order to prevent that- Is that Clear?

Q

Yeah . Did You see a diagram of the plates of

There the wells would go, the cot tectim welts?

A

I dm't recall a comprehensive design . I

LINDA LANCE REPORTING -- 847'1658\W18

poet-cLeetre care costs for Parcel A specifically .

0

Okay. And do you have an urk,standing of

chat groundwater as opposed to leachate is to be treated

crier the n -rest plan?

A

Mash, it's going to be irstallirg, and I'LL

try this again, it's -- Larhate is livid that's in

contact with waste . ace tea#ate is dbtssd or is

dalu33d by and enters grQwnJater, which is cater that's

within a particulate soil puss, it my he notsmireltel

or inµcvul grardater, hat I dr't think it's fair to

®lt that Leedhate arttirore . so, that zone that reeds to

be

--

Leachete reeds -- or, I'm sorry, grardeter

needs

to be withdrawn fran, I think in order to be

compliant

with the reguLatiors you weld have to pit those wells

in at a spacing, at a depth, ad at a distance five the

Latffi Ll at some point an that

you're

pultirg the

grordater tut of the soil matrix so that when you get

to a hLrdred foot away you can rhw there's no impact at

that point .

•

And --

A

Aid I don't kw pi misery wwt that is

.

•

But

ae of the things that we talked hat is

creatirg a regative prew,t or creatirg a zone- of

attenuation, in other words, so that there's ro chars

LINDA LANCE REPORTING -- 847\06918

51

49

16

17

18

19

20

21

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23

3

1.

6

8

9

10

11

12

13

1

1

I

mi

;~t hehe smart a sketch or two tut irtdel.ate

rrei with

irchrfficimt data to really warrant cc,izvtrtion or

wn'',rcirrs Tram it .

Bs&

cc )na u .:

.~ statIirq of that plan, tine

ue that'ss arrantly permitted, how far off from the

tariff It is it cottertirg gro,rdatter7

A

I don't recall .

0

But you say that, and 1 area this is iiie

,

I'm cnfLscd,

a i

./hat you're sayirs is you're

saying that it rearired the mltectirn of grnrd .eter as

gpaed to lrachate7

A

Correct .

0

I stiLl don't think we've core to a alma,

uderstardirg of chat Liquid we're talking abort is

treated rrdor the arrant permitted plan wares

what

you're saying really is whet shored have been Looked at-

A

hell, tile arrant

permitted plan also

ircluies leadrate, ircluks teed ate std gra.ndater

.

0

Ow-

A

But the big 10.1

ml III an dollars Is

grnrdeter treaurant .

Q

But it's, they're all, they're both irclu6d

in the sate, the same figure?

A

They're both in the durettly permitted

L111)A LANCE REPORTING

-- 847\658\8318

or there's a limited chars that Lead,ate is going to be

•

migrating Out because the prascre from the well

. eysiam

is going to be pulling it irR -

A

That's the arrentty

nndtted well system I

assume

you're

referring to?

•

0 Yes, yefi

. Ard vw of the questions I asked

•

was is it utnmut for that to be a racpIrwatt of

LadfiIts?

A

Let's I guess stay with the State of Illinois

Mace I thick that was you-

desire previously- I

don't think there are many facilities that I'm aware of

in the State of Illirois

. None of the facilities that

I'm working m are doing that, maybe one or two- So, is

it a statihrd reredlaL tahiigee? Yeah

. Is it alma,

for cperatirg ladfiIts to erploy that? I dm't know

what the 52 operating ladtitta in the State of Ittiroie

that are doing it

. There might be a half a doze,, or

six, or eight, or tan. I don't krw .

Q

I don't how a tot of them myself tut I low

in cagrtss they do that .

A

UAI, there's a difference I think between

•

Copra-v . rugr®s is tying to create a raw more

•

grtdiatt facility

.

That's different . That's where

yan're trying to keep the leachate level Wow the

LINDA LANCE REPORTING

-- 847\658\6918

---

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22

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a

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3

4

5

6

7

arrardire Dro.rdia1 r fever, ad that's a very armor

t=cmiq-s and a very p t

a'i

:e--hniq.c

. A-d 7 thirk it

hts a similar, similar ihuics Btird it tut I thin:

ttert's a big diffe^e-ce L tests ptpiIR t-~hate Wt-

ad pulpits grc nd ter .

q

Cha other q.ostim. Are you a

. ere that at

Least in Panel A of the lndfill that that site was

pe-iasly trod for a mnicipal waste disposal?

A

I just asides it was but I don't really long

who used --

who utilized the facility

. Are you talkire

ebat what ostuiers wart there or was it --

(I

No, sink its actual use prior to, prior to

the p>ennittirr, the 2070 permitting prone

re

. I mean

to give ya my u demla-dire of it, it was -- would have

been closed down for quite a period of time bit it was

formally a nu,icipal solid waste LeddfiLl, in other

words, game, 7nnicipal

garbage

was di7p ad

.

A It's my uderstandirg that it's been used for

varies kitda of darpimg, including cluiping and burning

activities since the forties .

Q And do you knw aythirq about the liner that

nay have been in place for that dnpire, in other wrtt,

the dumping before 20007

A wall, it was an old ahrdwieA

coal

mire, coat

LIMA LANCE REPORTING -- 847\6918

55

at that paint .

0

than you say Liner, you mean what was pit at

the top for that cap or a liver? How would you define

that?

A

I thick it was really a liner

. It

was

orbital

.

Caneraety, it wild here been a

cop

for the

old Landfill . But it was cu9ectel clay and synthetic

liver over the old facility. Now sepetatirg the, if you

will, non-regulatory disposes waste from the regulatory

permitted waste

might

he ae way to refer to it as

.

•

Can

we

take a ick

qk break' Can you give us a

minute so that we mar talk to Chris a Little bit?

(A brief recess was take,

.)

By W . GNAW .

•

We' I L go back m . We were disasslrg the

leachate ad grardater issues ad that sort of stuff .

Do you have an estimate, have you estimatul or do you

have an

opinion a, whet the coat would he, the

third-

party cost, for treating leachate at the Laelfill

for a huidrnl years?

No

.

0

what the cost

Do

wild

you have

be to

an

treat

estimatcLeadwate

or fzncLtsiai

for 30 years?as

to

A

That I thick I do have, For leachate

LIMA LANCE RWRTING 847\658\18

53

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3

4

5

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23

2

mired it since, since abaxtememt of the crel

. There's

an udarcLay layer that lias vrk~ the coal . W, see

that in virtLelly all coal tearirg zmcs . So,

that

rnkrclay that uterliec the coat has re eccrcmic vaLra,

ad that udeiclay is a fairly inperneebLe unit . What

we see in this area ad what we saw also un3 at

Streeter rot far frun here is that . utl-,uLay was Left in

place because it don't have any economic vaLta and

that the coal mine subsequent to extraction of the

minerals backfilled with water, became same kind of

local padfgarry . And irked cry art interviews with

Loral pile confirm that in fact it did have water in

it at ore tine . They ptnped the water cut ad they

started placing garbage of nuiicipl solid waste . It

was bind occasionally . None of that suprisas me

.

So, I debt and I'm cotfidentthat there was no

--

let me rephrase . I would be awful suyrised if there

was any competed clay liver, marmot eginsei-S type

liner uter it

. My belief is it's probably urdartain by

the uderclay of the coal which is, there at the

empirical evidence ad the borirg data that

we have

apport this . And at some, point in the 'BO's a Liner

was constructed amcr that previasty filled area and

matt to, I guess, male acre type of an aginaered lirr

management which ircluJas operations and treutment g

E809,4tb .

•

And for what period of time is that?

A

That's for 30 years .

•

So, that's

treating

all leetate facility --

A

Monitoring the tead,ate and there'S sole

other associated activities with that-

•

And in caning Cp

with that estimate who did

you

nee as the treatment facility?

A

city of Morris, PIBW.

•

Are you aware that the city --

abo.t

the

reyaletiars reepirtie,t for a third party, for the cyst

for a third party to treat the leadiate, in other words,

not an owner or an operator? I lam I am saying that

poorly, but rot srmeore directly involved with the

Landfill .

IR . MELSTEN

: object to the form of the

grestran, the assumption. It assures facts not in

evidence . With that, Mr . Mouse, I've node my objeeticn

.

You may aseer .

THE WITNESS ; I thick part of the rigid

interpretatia-e of 1fte - ri latias of this is

probably

what got is to this point to begin with . We hays a

sanitary tine that's in the pblic

right

of way

outside

LIMA LANCE . REPORTING

-- 847\658\6918

---

LIMA LANCE RBHRTD a -- 847\658\6918

LImA .LANCE REPORTING . FL7\658\6918 .

fur L=-#hate treabrent, haw tech did

ycu or What cost

did yon LC,I,

Pat huge did you cse for the City of

'iiilit -,L :I.,6L t" E.J18t1?

A

~Lk canon, t chit

Weu if Itw ztAt with nc

i.a~ . sorry, I

should

spa k Ip . I shirk it's .CE,

wits per yatLcn Which is the a,traeted

-- What 1 wed

is the contracted rate that they were going to charge

ac if they exc

their arrant . so, I got that arc

of their otritract for eperatia-a to CLC

.

Q

Did you ice that for the entire volute

of

Leadhate?

A

Yes,

a

so, you didn't give then credit for any

pretreatnsrit?

A

Mo .

Q

You hate -- do yul hat any krrwLaz~p abet

What other ladfILis pay far teachete treatment charges?

A

FeeratlyL

Q

Arid in general tents how dies, ha dies that

.r85 per gallon carpare?

A

It's probably less than they rharye private

actor operators but it's probably

wry

close to What

their actual cents are .

a

Do yM

know What the City of Morrle drams

LIMA LANCE . REPRTING --

84758\6918

Q

AM What is

ar'

estineted curt

of closing

the landfill?

A

I hah't CIA ft- broke, it dsri that

Way . I

had it realty broke, into far different tasks,

a

I'm goirg to get Into the details

on the

rake them lve, so-

A

Mist do you Wait by dowse?

Q

M estimate of the cost of closire the

lacifitts in arfor eme with their permit and let are

muddify that a little bit

.

A

C&vy.

Q

Berg-o

we've already sort of identified that

there's same, issues with waste relocation, bon ewe unirg

ro Waste relocation ftaa Parcel

a to Parcel A, the ~t

of per-forming the dosune tasks that am called for in

the two psrtsits-

A

No. I tha4it they Ware cmplotoly

ir3racticabte and crprotective of the pablic health

.

a

The clean costs therseLv®7

A

Yehil, the Whole t1prneCh

.

Q

Nee yw care ~p with an ettenetive planar

an alten'i tive ckmare plan, in other word,

rat

rrcrssarily What's in the permit, and haw you care lp

with the. cats for that plan?

. LINDA - LANCE REPORTING --

&7\658\6918

of cur

fe

rtL ity that's u-ryitly sn^epNr

. Lrchate frail

1

tttF: tamli'y . Purl to ssrlffute tilt s=;t

1• . r areintrg

other hri that seals cmpletaLy 1LLc9i-t( not only

tusz w it mLd l'» Wxd for t e -niirvrra ;t tut 't Would

take, t eoretically if

we

wire 9oirg m ixt:t tirerc ;ML

5

6 mar e, m,~f frun puttirg it into the grw'd end

6

7 giving it to sale kind of financial Trstitution . So,

7

8 aLthn,, the renllatic s do speak to that, I thick there

a

is -- I thirk there's a capability for the

to

9

10

interpet those differently.

10

a

Are you a.ere

that the Ford has already

11

12

ruled m the issue of Whether a third

party

treatre rat

12

13

estimate is reiuired?

13

14

M . :

HE-MIEN Also I'll objrct . I thick

1G

15 it aants

facts not in evidence. but with that you may

15

16 answer, if you krm, Mr

. Mmsz.

16

17

THE WITNESS : I have the board decisim

17

18

of Fetrtary 16th, Is that the one you're referring to?

18

19

BY M . GRANT :

19

20

Q

Of this year-7

20

21

A

Yes .

21

22

Q

No, it was a 2001 decision .

22

23

A

Ch . No, I'm rot awere of thet-

23

a

in caning Ip with ynrr estimate of 8909,0

24

59

1

private sectu •

operators for leachate t

t?

1

2A

I don't recall as I it here,

2

3Q

Did you take

aa look at that rLaber? Did yw

3

4 review that ruder'?

4

5A

I've Locked . I trey have . I don't recall it

5

6 a I sit here . My aW, wgsrierb is it

c8, be wy-here

6

7 frail as la as a parry and a half per gallon to

-- or

7

8

less to, I've stoup to fist to six cents a galled .

a

9

a

Okay

. And

drat

so I have this written cbwn

9

10

right, you said --

I have . .086 per gatlai. Is that

10

11

11

12

A

Let are fired it .

12

13

a

In other words --

13

14

L® than a pary a gattan .

15

0 Okay. Did you -- just so that I In erstad

15

16

it, you did rot cam LP with an estimate hsed on a

16

17

third-party

cost, in other worc's, for Rumb dy else

17

18 hides the City of Morris to tryst it?

18

19

A

No, it sews rot practical or ioprxticable

19

20 to one. It also

seemed

like

--

20

21

a

It woes realty jrst a yes or ro. Y-re yew

21

22

able or have you are hp with an estinetei cwt of

22

23 closing Parcel A and B of the

ladfill?

23

24

A

I' a rate cp with ray own estimate, yes

.

24

---

23

24

6

7

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

A

Yes .

0

that's y,.i- astinata! :usc of cLosird parcels

A ad B?

A

Total c¢t is rfft arcr .rd 1C' ti lion

dot L are .

Q

okay

. That's rot pat-cteure7

A

IrtLLdirg Post-clrs e,

a

okay

. Taking rut the post-chaos aap~,

post-clmse care aspact of it?

A

Be about 8 .4 million .

Q

Ard I'm going to as um

that the pest-ctowre

Is the boleros of that . So, what

do

y°1

calculate as

far as Post-ctosure care?

A

Ragity2 .6million .

•

AM the imt-clostre care, was that done

from

-- on a third party

bas-is?

A

Yes.

Mi

. FELSTEN

: 2 .6

on 1 .6 Mr

.

Moose?

I'm

doing the math .

THE WITNESS : 2.6

. So, I ant have bear

off b; -- it mat be 7.4,

BY NR . (RANT :

•

Okay, abort 7.4- So, the total closure,

post-closure you believe to lee about a,p-aeiiiately 10

LINDA LANCE REPORTING -- 847yt68\6918

nn-Py they mild afford to spad2

•

A

No .

•

0 As far as the Post-clOSUe care, then tat's

assure 2-6 minim dollars of post-closure care, have

•

you disossed that separately with then, in other words,

•

can the city of Morris afford to put

W

2-6 million

dollars of -- to tevmse past-closure?

A

No, I did not discuss it sgparately With

•

than.

•

Yw're familiar with the regilatio s

. Can

yw felt hen how with, with the arre,t firmcial

assurance that's in the permit of 17 PLUS million

dollars, if you armed to, as you obyiatly think that's

ircorrect, how told

you

ctra- a the re}rired abort of

financial assurance'

A

I would ioptera,t a Plan that fowled m

instead of financial essrate a series of tasks that go

to the --

•

Before you --

no, I udtxsta d . Before We

get into that, ad I'm sure we Will, I

rm+r, yci'LL agree

that currantLy the permits for the tadfill rxgr-e at

least 17 million dollars of --

A

I agree

.

-- clostae, post-clostre financial acsirato?

LINDA LAME REPORTING -- 847\65HW15

63

61

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4'

5

6

S

10

11

12

13

14

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16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

1

2

miltim dollars?

A

Corrcrt,

•

Vid of mat 2 .6 minion is post-don.re

care'

cW ncX, .

•

Ok5y . You're

gong

to --

I'm goirg to --

we'rs going to give you the opportunity to discie s

sat

of the things and 14a-It to Ii-ow

spout what you thick

rtesR to he die. I thirk that vas in

yo-r

disdc s-e

as far as the tasks that reed to be done at the

Landfill . But at this point tat ma just ask you about

financing the total of the 10 miLlim dollars, the 7.4

and 2 .6 million dollars. Your client is the City of

Morris . Have you diseased the varioe tasks ad

especially the arrant of norey that's required to d,

these tasks?

A

Yes .

•

Does the City -- ca, the City of Morris

afford to d' closure at a,

say, 7.4 million dollars and

2 .6 million -- Wit, the two, the pnst-clasure cam, we

can talk, sell talk about that separately, But as far

as doing closure at 7.4 million dollars, can the City of

Morris afford to do that?

A

They tat l me ro .

•

Did they give you an idea about how mch

LINDA LANCE REP(RTINO

-- 847\E68YE918

If yet disaoreed with that mbar and you waited to

legally, in other words, in

catfmimee with the

reguiatias in the Act, how do you dtaee that robe to

a enter that you think Is --

A

File a significant modification to the permit

ad try and chase that r rter-

•

Has the city filed a sig ifica t mcdificatim

permit application?

A

Yes .

•

And when was that filed?

A

Arard Haveater of 2005 .

•

And ca, you telI ma the current staffs of

that?

A

Currently we hew a denial Letter from the

Agency on it for some numerous issues,

0

Denial

. Letters Lip

front are clue in a

permit wplicatim, aren't they?

A

Yrs .

•

Did it re .cast m'dificatiors to it?

A

You

krw, we itst got the letter this Weak

.

I haven't had a chair to met ly dip into it

. Ag1in,

that's not utstel

. Tbete's a denial Letter in the

inte,feetive process with the Agesy is devekyxd to

resolve the ottstaidirtl 1ssLss .

LINDA LAND REPORTING -- 847\658\ 6/918

---

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22

0

Did

y.xj

'in Yaw permit .-nliatI :0 sQcrntt a .

remrnsrkd enter for fiiviciol r ;a'sue?

•

A

Y- .

0

N'd'.a, that the 10 milIicr, a)tltt-n.p/Yr

•

that you --

•

A

For Parcel A I'm at 5.7.

Q

AAd as you're gsirg thr ph those if you t~

•

split cut tie ctntE ad prat-clrrure that wand be

•

great .

A

Parcel A I'm at closure at 2 mf hion and

post-chosure at 3 .7 . And Parcet B I'm at closure of 5-1

ad pet-clcsure at 1

.4

. That Fits the teml of the ttm

at around 10- This is rot the ease as the 10 million

1

referred to eartier .

Q

And why isn't it the sale rurber?

A

3e.se an this pattiailar rOmber we were

bard by the

n.±1

aril a few other things, hut the scope

of work for this pertinltar one is more wgr ant I

thick with the reg.Aaticrs and rot as protective as what

I'LL call ar practical alt roach .

Q

As far as -- jet Let me ask the gestlmr, as

far as being p-oteetfve of the ewlrenrant, Isn't It

really the resposlbiLity of the ILLirots EPA?

A

It's also the rasprrtsibiLity of ery

LIMA LANCE REMETLNG -- 847\558\6918

A

Morris is a -- all permits are cisaiad

Stwem the cprator ad the owner . It's interestirg

that the permits eFeifioalty Lists the ever serrate

then the operator a opposed to fist reµlirirr3 the

tier . I read the PC3 bsision that indicated that

Morris awes an

operator and I thick that there's sate

material fact that they've misinterpreted, ad I thick

they're giite wrong in their intetpatatia,,

respectful

0

ly

speaking.

No, i u r-stand . But -- I mean the single

answer is that the permit has a rurher of conditions

which bird tic- City of Morris ; isn't that correct?

A

Well, you know, that's a LFyal grtttion. I

shirk it birds the gxrator athor qt atcr as I read

the re,itatias . It da?rn't say operator arid owner . It

LIMA LAMBE REPJ TLNG -- 847\658\6918

67

2

Illinois . l"rva's ar flier

rtsnxtsibitity .

3

r7

Bit its ols: the resixrafbiliy of both

4

L:rcffi Il d,

4 d egirters to artform with the

5

rcc,7u',atiss in the Envinrmntel Pr-ota-timt Act

; isn't

6

that true?

7

A

well, certainly

--

8

ME- HELSTEN

: Objection. it's

9

argjnantative

and

I object to the form . Ya mry artwar

10

Mr. Mocoe.

11

THE WITNESS : I thick, you know, it's

12

certainly 9n a incer's rasynsibility. As far a

13

whether it's latifftt owners or operators is anther

14

issiie

. I thirk that dav-d+ u who's responsible for

15

what .

16

BY Mt . QtANT :

17

0

The I.adfill

operator

does rot have the

18

dnoice of picking ad dnasirg what reaalatias it car

19

canfonm with ; isn't that toe?

20

A

A Iacff1LL gerator I agree .

21

a

And 1

neat it's a b-eiras and if you're

22

w-irg to be in the Ladfi I I heiress ya ha'e to follow

23

the rules?

24

A

If you're a Landfill operator,

yw hone to

.

18

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B

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10

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Pe5ietend

Pr,7l~acn~l hwreer in the state at

sop gereter or aer

as I recall the regalatias . So,

I thirk it really has to do with who's repcrsible for

what . The aspects of operation in cry mind are of rty

the re.

.cmsfbi11ty of the operator, and what

retpnrsibiIities the arer has I thick is, if you have

an Perator is -- if they're

differ.. parties, I thick

is rot raessarily the sate .

0

But if the permit has a reepirere-it that

specifically says the cover or operator or the

corner or

the pennittee, wouldn't that bird the ever of the

ladfi lL as well?

A

If a turtract is sps.ifirstty

executed that

deLcata alt of that rvpoesibiLity

, to another entity,

I think it goes to that entity, ether ise, the arieracts

are of rn valie .

Q

Is it ynr belief that a pecan cai contract

away

their, with a private party, their permitted

rbligatim udar an Illinois EPA isste term pens t?

You g c; can sit, Let's po outside .

(A short Veak was takal.)

(Dhibit He's . 2 ad 3 were nurkel

LIMA LANCE REPORTING -- 847\658\6918

b

A

I c n't km:. I thick that's a legal

gesstim .

M .

(R49:

Cen you a give ton a minute?

fol

o,., the rube, that's correct .

0

Or if you're a permitted Ladfill arer as

wells

A

You know, Let's take the case in front of m .

I thirk clearly Morris contracted that responsibility to

anther parry and then I chink it's a, issle of the law

verse egineerirg .

0

But Morris has a permit that's issd to ft

as owner of the Lartiff I I,

---

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2L

1

2

6

7

for xkntificatim on h-2-)s .)

3Y PV .

rRJIT

:

o

Lt's get bo<k on, I'd like to nut in a

nrla of E*hlblts . Let's got thcs o.m or the w:rw .

haw_ not Eciibits 2 one 3 which are spies of

interrogatory sprees from the

City of Mrrie .

Looking at Ediibit Number Z Jiidt are interrogatory

responses from

-- I'm sorry, I rums Nurber 3 . 1 halt

the applersttaL ones which are interrogatory rcs{xscs,

&.pterentaL Mowers to staters interrogatories

sbmitted an May 18, 2006 . It says in disclosure

"lnterrogstory No . 3. Mr. Noose may also testify as to

closure/part closure ative he proposes to be

inple anted going forward

." Do you see that?

A

Yes

.

•

tae you developed an opinion about what

closure end pest-closure actions ehwld be done at the

Morris Community Landfill?

A

Yes .

•

Let's talk abut this . Essentially before

getting into a lot of detalI about it, if you could, is

there a way to split the tasks out into separate things,

meyte we can talk about them separately, in other words,

leadwate is ore?

_ LIMA LANCE REPORTING ._ . 847\658\6918

wait . We neasred the depth . We baited to maim sue

that it was still t.rctiarrg . We coated that depth

to escistirg geologic and hydrogmtogie data to realty

assure arseLves that if wan did obtain samples from

these wells that the wells wild be

-- yield valid

results or to the degree we were able to arsine

apreeivtes that they were

. That report was given to the

city in July of 2006 and

since 4pocimately that time

the city has grafted w Wmissim to go in there and

monitor those wells. Lt's important for me to

uderstard the impacts from the facility, which the

monitoring wells

measure,

in order to asSaSS that

potential threot.

Q

Lett me just for identification, is that the

document that's titled Landfill Monitoring system

Evraluatim Report dated et the bottom July 2005?

A

Yes .

•

And a cop,' of this has been presented to all

parties today.,

A

Yes

. And since that time we've

been

naii tarlrg the lardfi Ll and now we've had far 4nrters

of

rcwn data, arid prior to that I thick our Lest data

was in 2000 or 2001 so there is a significant data gap .

•

is that fair due by stave Eitii,ulesrtal?

LItZA LANCE REPORTING -- 8b7\655\6918

1

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A

Yec

.

0

bhst genoraL twes of donna end

post-d.ceure

a tivitie: do you think reel

to he cone at

the Morris Cammnity Lrdfitl?

A

Well, as I indicated to the City of Morris,

first we reed to assess whether there's m imrsdiate

threat to the pbtic health, safety, and welfare

. Ard

mead an my visual impaction of the site ad r®nd

review, I recamrrt d to the city of Morris a series of

actions that be initiated as soon as pasible to batter

ascertain whether there is any potential public

health

threat . Those resulted in Morris retaining wa to

produce the three &cuuorts that I p-cdeed for you

earlier

.

The first was completed in July of 21XI5

. The State

alleged that monitoring of the landfill was rot

occurring in accordance with the permit, and after close

evaluation

of the facility not only was the monitoring

rot being empleted in xmrdate with the permit,

really the sanctity or the woe-Miners of the monitoring

system was in yas tion byte . And I asked for

permission and received pennissim by the city of Morris

to go rut and evaluate the monitoring system

. We looked

et each monitoring well, Located it . wan prgad the

LINDA LANCE REPORTING -- 847\658\6718

A

Yes .

•

And as for as the monitoring pa

.ec

e, e, am

those the same parameters that are t -itaireed in the

Landfill. permits?

A Yes . The seco-d thing I

wanted

to da is

evatwte the prate of the Leadmate in the landfill

and the effe tivamcss of the collection system . That

report was -- that r .est • eEpro.cd by

the

City of

Morris ad that report

was praised in September of

2005 . And it evaluates from a Leedmte cotlectic

standpoint what has atully been constructed and hw it

functions and its functionality versa what was

pemdtted

. And that was itprtant for me to trderstad

the ability to Withdraw t tmete, how it was being

tearhed - .

handled at the site .

•

Can you describe generally the w®chate

collection

system at Parcel A and parcel B tease 1

Los w that B was operated as a mnieipat solid waste

landfill fm a lag time and it was an older LardflUM

so, if you could jut give is an idea of ae panel

verse the other.

A

Parcel A -- well, let me kind of start with

an omraLl statarult . Laxhate collection

at the

facility, both percats, dxsn't ietlynrrr today's

LIMA LAME REPORTING -- 847\eb8\FA1B

---

24

3

eFrswt cT retirg st:rci,rcs . Aacl tt'at i, p rmitted

amen hat !as dn;t-,.red ut, is a dtspsrity End

dra:e's

a trek of cctr,diers^vc

diagrams for is

to there all -'rec,saly -tat

cr1zrxte6 n-,

Pavirg said that, we did go, a- it'> cpl.aired

in

•

detail in the rep.-t what wo, did, to try erd idntify

what was ccretnct!~ . IFder~.tdnlirp

that sore of the

•

stuff is still trdergrard ad sore of the eviderrre wits

•

based at less than total artpr~d!aeive ore rvtadirg we

did

Mix-

air test aes of what wes ecttetly

ccrctrtitod

. So, between Mhat cur epinim is, ad this

is set forth in the scorn, and whet ecttstty might be

there, there's p-cbebLy wFirg to to see divergence,

Right rnw the leadiate caltectim system at Parcel

A is restly pspirg taai±ate cut of seeral vertical

matioles and putting it into the gas extractien

maifot± to a centre( point Mere a simple cattrector's

pip is used to pup the teachate into a mnicipsily

erred sanit ary

tire out front .

Md Parcel B, its --

and there's paragraphs ad so

•

forth within this report . Parcel

B they had care

vertical extraction points ad it has en vvertirer

and

Mrineter mLlestim system am" three sib or maykr

Two ad a half sides that ors to to constructed and

LINDA LANCE REPORTING -- 847\658\6918

A

I didn't understand the 4restim.

•

Q ire as of the aptiae that you looked at in

•

evaluating

the problems out there erntinuirg to operate

•

Parcel A, Which I think has retaining waste to full

•

capacity?

•

A

By CLC?

•

Q By a-6 4' . Did yo.I lock at as are of yw

•

optics cvntiruirg to dispose of waste at Parcel A? I

•

don't treat today or tamrrw bit as an option --

75

'I I-

it qeta irtrerreitally ircreasS over tint

. You know,

2

wither' tettirg into rm-e chtaiL, I thirk that's

yJ ashy it .

Q

•yeah, I

Lsn't wcoking far &tail, I was font

5

urice>

.dunk the is:;tes fran toe to the other,

A

The third thing I aakaf to do is in order to

;zi''sc_s

the pbLlr health iasces is to look at the

•

IardfIIt

ass,

system

.

That

resort

was put together ad

•

:L-knitted

in ltoril 2045

on Parcat B- Peril B is the

west side facility. Based m nr wire that w had

at the site, I didn't thick la-dfilL gas was mach of a

mrtmrn m the east side or Parcel A

. So, we really

looked at a caple of imrsdlate thires

. First, we

c6tairtad the information as ghiddy as possible

and

raped dap m

the site . second,

we received -- we

rccanrerc*--d and ultimately rr8ived apprcval from the

city to foes on the pbtic health, safety and welfare

in the area of

monitorirg, which is a critical factor to

krtrw, lrachate coltettion and gases atleetlan leas

.

•

From there we

thaw cle~elged a recammt4atian of chat we

would cb to chose the facility in the most prodxtive,

•

i .e.,

least cost, highest irgact Ilea,

•

Q Did

you investigate cattlrulrg to gpaete the

•

facility' In other words

--

LIMA LMtZ RFFCRTING -- %7\65816918

assessing

the imradiate threat

. Did you take a lock

at --

•

A

Yes

Q

--

what wild be raj ind?

•

A

L ckveLaned a closure

approach

that felt

•

Into five categories . R,e was the grurd.ate

monitoring

retire. We wanted to cb work m the

•

grardater monitoring network to make ft sore

•

miprhesive and more reliable

. We had re=mvtatlas

trdar leschate meagawatt and monitoring --

let me lack

tp

. {,fiat we call grurd,ater monitoring retweric were

tasks in the 100 series and all tasks mrectsi to that

we had sob 100 nnters

. Series 200 ruts wets

teadrate raegereit end mnitorirg

. Series 300 were

first rower system and first lad form

. Series 400 were

Lardfi ll gas and nonitoring, and series 500 were

pest-closure care activities for 30 years

.

Q

And these were recamatbtiaa that

-- I'm

sorry, were these recametbtias that

yw

had care to

mrL,aio s of 6f at rwaid to be dcre with all these

wh<xe you AevtIopicd a plat to deal with dhese?

A

Yeah, these are my reccme z6tias at least

initially of that reeds to be implenaited at the site

recognizing whet you enter a project Like this there's

LIMA LANCE REARTING

-- 847\658\6918

76

?q

A

felt, there was wlure available bat I dich't

10

evaluate se, al thing I thick that are all part of

11

that q.estim . I didn't

evaluate

whether we had the

12

centrectwl capabfllty to cb that . I didn't pvaLiate

13

Who mutt be best to do that, . ad I didn't evatmte

14

precisely What the cost/benofit ratio of that might be

15

over time, if that

answers

yaw r}-tie.

16

Q

Sure . So, tasicstty all of the rcrthsiao

17

that yea have ire tamed m ctarsirg the facility as

18

opposed to etttiruim to operate it7

19

A

I assured closing the facility.

2D

Q

Ckay . Did ytan -- how anon in ctcnirg the

21

facility, hew but the statbrd dive tasks of

22

prttirg in a final co er ad ghtdir'g and those sorts of

25

thir'gs? We've talked reef[ lactate and

gas

in sort of

24

LIMA LANCE REPLRTING

--

f4716

T,9~691B

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1s

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2

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7

e

johns to he ch_srga end au-priaoe pxr ebLy etvg the

w~ .

0

Before yoJ telkad alert clcccre costs, 7

.4

mi ;li xh cbU aro . I thick hat's ace&- ts, isnt - it,

yew estimate of cL use osts9

A

Yea .

Q

And also

recognizing

I think your two ruTbers

were -- one was, ani I asked you What yar estirrmte of

the cost of closure, it was 7.4 million dollars, ad I

thick also you

-- What I've got written down is that in

yar permit application that you swnitted to the

Illinois EPA you had clasre costs of 2

million

for

Par l A ad for Parcel B 5 .1 miltio-r . But I mean

lasicatly with the conclusion, your caclusias that you

reached on what roeds to be doe in those five arms, is

that where yes care tq with the 7.4

million

dollar ast

estimate,

A

Yes .

Q

So, a crnpLetim of these five tasks yaw

estimate tea 7 .4 miLtiori

A .

You re correct.

a

Right .

A

No, I'm sorry . No, it was five tasks go to

gist moor 10 million became it irctulas task five which

LINDA LANCE RS--

T1NG

B47\659\6918

77

my opinion. so, we have alxut $28,000 worth of work for

•

monitoring welt installation .

•

a

And that's just clear", that's rot

•

post-ctoa. e?

A

That's closure.

•

0

Yeah

.

•

A I mean it's important for es to cartirnslly

monitor the grardeter for rs to crake sue that as

•

assunptlas m pblic health, safety are always

insistent . We have epptacineteLy 515,000 for

grandnter wait aLaJrrrent-

sub hawk wells that are

darsged that mild be a potential pathway. We went to

abandon those waits ad seal them sup ad do the

appropriate permitting with the IEPA to do that

.

There are repairs that are reed3l to existing

welts, wells that can be tr uight back to life with some,

minor wont with chest a thasad cbllars for the

repairs .

And we want to establish a grardeter ne-ege rot

•

zone

arard the ladfi ll yams the current no

graundater attenuation area . In this particular area,

rorncne it's an old tnrdsea3

cool mine, that Lt's got a

•

Lay history of dfrpirg that in certain carstituants the

4p-9radieht pa,d,rlers or castih+rtte eu-eed the

3

5

6

7

B

9

10

12

13

14

15

16

1

9

20

21

z2

23

2

s pcst-etaare .

Q

okay . That's fin-y,

I didn't write chat ae

chin . Ckay. 4e l, arc thrayi far is 7

.4

million?

A

Correct, arii chin

e .

--

Q

Did yc0 -- in caning w with these

recaaroxivtipa did you attarpt to make are that ycu

were complying with the cxistirg permit ree

.rirar nts?

A

No.

mach

0

as the

I'm

listed

rot talking

ctASde

shout

rapuirmmts

financial

.

~ so

A Yeah . I thick that's what we atteiptal to do

in the permit application that's arrentLy

pending.

For

exarple, jest to select one thing in part, the arrest

application that's pending, it irehds waste

retoraticn . I dn't believe that is a wise attaar .

That's not irtluied in we'll call it the alternative

closure plan .

0

As far as the grrt deter monitoring network,

what sort of work would have to be doe to --

A

Got it broken out in five general cateqpories .

We have to ere x d the grurdtter monitoring network,

incresa the nxbzr of nonitortng wells . Sore of the

rrmitcrirg wells that we ford were dam, uLsdole .

we have an irsufftctant arartt of

tp'9radin

wells in

chore gradient

t"ra5r

we have a lard tune that's in and

card a facility of highly irslstrial, because we're

not sire the grartiater and because the qnrdwatw is

•

rot potable aywey, this is I thick a perfect

application for uti Lizatim of a grardrecer mareferont

•

facility. And than we've got orgoirg grarhdeter

monitoring drirg the period of closure . So, that

graz inter monitoring work is right stout $6Q,000 . The

task two work

--

0

Let me jest -- as we go thrall these I'd

Lilac to get an estimate alma how lag you wa iLd think

you would estimate it world take to complete these tabs

too

. I don't krcw

if this is maybe the right ae to ask

A

I thiric probably we have a sdredile of

•

iipLerettatim tut you

wouldn't

re easarily do ell the

grv.r¢etar

monitoring and then rb the next . It's all

done at different times

.

0

Right

.

•

A so, we ham: a year to yew sdfec4le of what

we would do each year and hat thee costs would be far

each year. For zvarple, you would went to -- well,

•

let's get into the next

re . Task 200

level is teachate

•

m .

LINDA LANCE REPORTING

-- 947\65x\6918

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6

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16

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a

3

4

5

6

0

9,'re,

let's sow a' to teat tq, i-

A

lhst's task 2i1 is co ccrrptate the leichote

collcc[im system . L e `can t

;:r is

, ;: .:,~„ heft

w-

;xa uirxC Lne l?,;J,ate

men'±w Ti. ; ,L1

Letattitte ns

ere of the primary (xr.-c+r'izL th2sts, rd mat's tint

$701,L00.

o

Lhat's the current state; of tie leechate

oiLkcticn system in yo.r cpinim at the larchiIt?

A

It's set forth in err report vhidh ytu have a

ccoy of

. I dn't believe

it rroets tansy's operating

stndardh . I think currently I saw no

wide"

that it

pose, on irmaliete risk to the pblic hsalth tit it

reek significant writ . You can tell by the ,il(ar

figse alone . Thane's a signffic-it arrant of

irtfrastrtrtiaa that r

to be int~tcd in the tadiiLl

in order to efficiently ad crnprdvasivety extract the

loadhate from the facility

.

And then prepare a arstri.ction

gaalrty assuraooo

report, again, to have in this roioDrtirg

resfusibi lities and

ctsts to report to the IEPA the

mrpletia, of each activity to darastrete that the

activities were done in accordance with the epp,vved

epprnndh

. So, we've got

tot

8746,000 worth of

leachate

LINDA

infrestncvureLANCE

REPQITLNGinvestment

.

--

847\658\6918

identify that's rut there . Nw •e h . se, $7,500 to

design a cover system after we hew that's there, and

then design the first land form and storm deter

nw event system, bract is really tying in all the

emtan of the site, of abc t $10,000 . For octal

metre

fm

of

the

first mv9r, stone stet naikgeieit

•

system, all the earth work if you will, .e h . 5-6

million dollars . So, the final roar system we're

•

reining jest drat 5 .7 million dollars .

•

And these rurbers irclcdirg both A and B,

right?

A

Yeah, A end B .

Q

So, of the 7.4 miLLirn, 56 is ihet you

estimate to be the cost of pitting in the final rover?

A

Yep. We have Landfill gas nasgers,t

monitoring that ircit

e.'eltieting the gar m Parcel A,

cSigi Parcel A gas mavsena,id system, caiplete the

irataltatim of Parcot a gas manager," system, install

ad cgmstnct the ladfill Parcel A gas ma,ageert

•

system, and

than r- irs to gas prcb , and the-, cadet

egoirg ladfi l I gas monitoring . so, we hoe start

•

841,000 worth of Landfill

gs_s cc stnrtirr wrk that's

reccsaory .

G

Hcr ct

that 841,0[71 rnTere to other ga>

LINDA LAND REPORTING -- 847\658\6918

B1

Yn.i rrwiasly nxnticmai 8?01,C0?.

[hat -era jest for the to

1Lectim system

.

1hr

: e - r€car

_.43,[Y,0

of nt .r 'La Per=_ tl^at

:xa

mhrot-

G

reef .

A

Firal m.2r system and the final Lard

Neon,

the iser~e art there ri of mw is rnottdy krns precisely

how rnah soil cover is m top of specifically the west

side portion . Based on

visrol . evidace at the site,

there are sum fairly deep errosion gulliee, But those

deep evasion mines, althar, they pue ah issue of

Lack of neintavu, what I'm able to tell from than is

that there is a fairly thick dyer of soil over that

facility right now Jnich is a good thing . And the areas

that I've Locked at, I've seen Main areas u,v.( a

there's over than to three

feet of soil existing ever

that site . &rt dclndy errors rat's there, ad in ordr

for us to design a m er system that is respectful of

the tax[ayers' money, thigh I'm aeaaning Morris is

spending the mast', we should evaluate Jhat's on that

deer- system ad Litu[ize Jsetever we

can of that

cover

system as opposed to jest the assnptin waald be that

•

it's rot there at alL, So,

we have 350,000 to go met

•

and pate the cure system at fairly tight intervals to

LINDA LANCE R6altIbG --

64768\6918

s-, a systems at other tadfi Its Lewd an your

aq;eriaAe?

A

ua tb a lot of other. landfills so I think

•

acre for acre it's similar

. tw'w got about 85 acres of

footprint here

. So, it's rot, it's rot a small cloare

•

activity, if you will

. And than the first is

•

pmt-cL®ure activity.

•

0 Let me stay on the gas , just for a

•

minute . brat control devvice tore you centatpletim7

A

The first task is acbelly

ladfill g s

evabatia, . lle'lL acttatly go cut and do

a strdy of the

ladfi ll ad idettify haw nrxh 93s is there, the gelity

of the gas, end then make a redo mcdatian

on'' "'s the

best tey to treat the gas .

a

So, yea havayt bided yet thick ccrhtrol

medhanism ,

A lop jest made assurptiaa. My assumption is

that the west side is prcbabLy ah the duhilL side of

the dune ad there's prtbfbly rot nrh on the east

•

side. l e avid be wrug by that but you rtmLLy read to

go in and, you knew, put a prone in end see Jot we got,

•

see that the gelity ad gsntity of the made is ad

the ; do a pro form ad see ihether or not i t makes

see_ to jhet flare it, incinerate it, or go to ga,ed

LINDA LANCE nTTNG -- 847A658\6718

---

6

7

8

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tasoi on the findings that

you care tp with for the

leachate

collection

systen, how Long would it take to

mstnrt the leahate ccrstrtrtion collective?

A

well, it's really rot recessarity a gestim

of how Lo-g it's going to take . There's a series of

emits ad apparels that have to ocewr . &j, it doesn't

treks

any

sense for is to csig, a cap until we go out

and do the probes and figure out what's there . We had

schodiled begimirg with this fall --

well, we've got

this sumer ergoing which is aziplete, the rautire

grardeter monitoring, ceplete the leschate

nmitoring, ca,tirue the Landfill. gas monitoring, ad

that the aiual re mire that's required uider our

pertain .

"Inning in the fall, if we were going to

LINDA LANCE REPORTING

. . -- SL7\66"188 . .

going on for a period of six years until ultimate

closure .

a

Can you just --

)a

nay have die so, but can

you clarity what work has been done es of today?

A

1k have done anneal rep" ire. we've gore

out ad assessed the grurdater nmitorirv network

. We

have inplarented 9roitbeter nmitorirg . We've gave out

and assessed the Landfill gas system including the

ladfi Lt gas nmitorirg system ad iuplearnted

landfill

gas nolitorirg .

•

ran you explain, and I hate to keep

interrtptire, but can you e?p(ain what you r1 ' by

Landfill gas rrmitoriru?

A

Vk are regjired order the permit to nuiitor

ladffll gas in the Ladfitt and areud the perfrtter of

the lardfi It m a m

. ably basis .

•

Is that the six-face

mars?

A

It's sirface as well as cihorfeoe.

•

so, it's Like oxygen content,

nether e

content, and those sorts of things of the gas itself in

the wells?

A

In the wells, right. And that had rot been

do rt or-tadly or at legally by the IEPA . Vk wart ait

end toad at the probes ad ford then, figs out

LINDA LANCE REPORTING

-- 847\658W18

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23

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7

8

9

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irpleKrit at attatrad~t plan, we i> :a,rcx~-cal anther

rcu-

kily

L hu-e:r-j

thorrtrd coLLars work this'ialt '.hid,

irclhiVad eat#li-v0 hr .=-'~rord.ater rare3ment zax : If

se ,zn't cat

7;,2'

: .,1' ;l Is^ii

.-.rd

:Kornfl

trYn Iwldi tie

agrr y early on, it ctcrr

all other factors

. So,

it

doesn't salle ay sane for ,u

to rush out there and

start pluking dirt in the grand uitit we understand

whet we're doing

. we've got the gra Setar nonitorlng

work to do this fall, the gas nanitrirg

probe

repair.

And

than, like I said, probe the ladfill to figre out

what we have acct there

.

Q

Right-

A

Then we have work sculled for the winter of

2005 and 2007 and we broke this into season

pcpecefuLly . lhere are certain activities that don't

lard thansely® very well to surner work and there ere

certain activities that dart lad thaiselyes very welt

to winter work . So, we tried to stage things in a

logical order and than have earth boring activities

occur in the spring ad sumac versus starting it in

October.

•

Umbra .

A

we're Lcokirg to get the lay of the lad

Ard that really has us begimirg work this fall and

- LINDA LANCE REPORTING -- 847\65B'L918

i4iidi ass we mild use, which ones

we couldn't, and

began the rrmtwrirg system. W bow nmitorirg what

we mild .

•

your nmitarirg is umitcrirg of the gas

theselves?

A

Correct .

•

Not of the wells?

A

well, there's gas plies around . welts are

nonitorire wells . Now we also started monitoring of the

gas -- or the grairrlater =mitering wells .

•

Okay .

A

And then we've also evaluated the Leedhebe

collection systan, Meat's there and what reads to to

cane to the beast of our ability to trxierstad that-

•

Rage you ore any construction out there or

installed any, aythirg at the ladfitL, any wells or

A

No, we have rot participated in any

a,-stnrtion activities . We have rot participated in

any corer repair . We have rut had any city eaplorees,

other than rrey±e the mayor

or sarethirg stadim at the

gate, entering the site ad doing

any

of the activities .

I was irstnxted to go took at that inspection

report,

idhntify what's there and report back as giick as

LIMA LANCE REPORrlNG --,847\658\6918

.vend.

n

Let ri get ytxl rah trd tack viii up a Little

nit .

.nrs-

U

There's a gastim

I wanted to ask yoi

.

A

It takes a lot to get ns nod .

U

I only got three hours . Maybe I can do it .

A

You can take alt night, fire with lie .

Q

I just wanted To ask how Long )cu thadght,

---

LINDA LANCE REPORTING -- 847\658\6918

LINDA LANCE REPORTING -- 847\65816918

nn,itrirg, $809,000 ; adcad.ct routine ladftlt gas

margament ad monitorirp at $110,000, for a total of a

little over 2 .6 millim.

O

Okay. Now the arrest permit ®t Ls for the

groundwater

treatment ad Leachate treatment far

a

hu&nd year period but you -- end you've used 30 wars

as your estimate?

A

R1¢d .

0

Why 30 versus 1(107

A

Because .I ekn't beliwe there's any

scientific evidence that warrants (a) pumpirg

9rarrSater for a htr&th years ; (b) pumping and

treatirg le8dtate for a hudrad years .

I'm not seeing

the evidece to d, that . I thick, you k,oe, the way

that those cumbers cam dour I thick you have to

u,d?rstand the permitting erodes ad specifically the

groundwater

modeting process . Arid I thirk if you go

tr~ Gad Lode at hawu the mcdet ues pit tc

sties

ad

the

iteratias that wan back ad forth, I thirk they

just

" .snit, of

Te sYOirnir0 of whether -~- did bent

v

:mi tcir

on

tc

~p

t

cn the site and do that . In

ny

~.vflsr`o-. t~.ere

a little jousting

I f 'IP ne,

hrr'_ .H itiin

to

w m the site ac do cur

-

env3tiaF .

C

were you denied access at ay poirm?

A

I dhYt recall specifically . 1 Ivnw then

ice was

dis~,icn about it .

a

s

., I thick as far as I'm carsrnad you

diennea the grcvdleter nimitorirg network ad the

laaciete m.vx} n i .i t system, the final wren, the cost m

it, and

the ladf i l l gas

. Now about -- i s there

anything specific as far as post-elate activities .

A

Yes . we r-

vdsd

-- `ell, we categorized

than into for large areas of activities lndufirg

rcutire irerscties and naintewce, this is far the

entire 30 years, of about a Little over $401,(100

;

routine grardater monitoring at 1 .3

million;

routine

leachate nrrngaartt ad monitoring at SM9,WD

; and

routine --

a

I wider if we can start war bemse you're

givirg the numbers I was going to ask about

.

A

Tr» fast

. The routine inspectims aid

neinte nnca, 8401,000

; routine gratrtdweter nvtitorirg at

3

5

6

9

0

12

13

14

15

6

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

2

LINDA LANCE RF cRtING --

.847\658\4&18

defaulted ad said welt rk, that just to get the permit

.

That doesn't necessarily make sale fran a pbtic

health, safety ad weLfare.

Q

Are the two periak, the 30 years ad 100

years, in the r

alatiors

someplace?

I menu I really

rbi't know myself .

A

Yeah, the e+otutim of the regulations are

interesting in and of thareeLvea -

The 30 years, there's

e Lot of

ate about what the magic comer is- The

regulations in IILireis were written in that am pretty

closely to &±title D,

ad that it says to the effect is

that you're goirg to how to meintein this IadfiLL far

at least 30 years after you ctoee it

. The dgacy may

rewire you to

monitor

it for Ln er than 30 years if w

thick it's still a threat . We haven't had Subtitle D

facilities out there that Lag so we don't know, wwetly

lit-tow that that constitutes at some point

. But we do get

irrtortmtim from empiricat evidmoe at older Ladftlls,

and

we km..

that some of the older pr-$ttitte

D

tadfiUs realty do becare relatively imoans after

snieshefe dare to that

. The Subtitle D facility, I

think we hale all had the opinion, ad we're realty short

m evidece, eepirical evidence, the hWred years mores

from the grrutteter impact rmtl which is, which is

LINDA LANCE RFPMTING -- 847\658\6918

1 .3 millim .

a okay.

Yeah, I think you said 3 millim.

A

Okay, sorry.

Q

May .

A Cardtt routine lute na, a

it and

39

1

p>y;ible

m health ad safety is~a;, a-1 fly

1

2

re_omesr_`atirn hat these were ere&

; tint I inDded to

2

3

tnzrstaril tefxt I acid na.Pc a'1 gpiri .n m .[Gh

h, std

5

0 As you

War, !twictsly, Cunnnity Latf ;Ll

5

6

Crptsry is the grretor of the LY-dfi 11 ptraa-k to an

6

7 ig~t with the city?

8A

Yes .

8

9Q

Does the agreerm[ permit the city to care in

9

10

aid do easy corstrtrctim work? In other is

rds, des the

10

11

city have access to the site to do any ccstructjm work

11

12

or a-y pajor work at this print?

12

13

A

Youu jam,

I lrn+what the inert is . If

13

14 you're asking me for at interpretation, of the contract

14

15

bctvwa the tan, I thick that's prnhebly Leyvd the

15

16

octet .

16

17

Q

If the city, for exaiple, the city wasted to

17

18

go in and install a

new ges system today cnlld they,

18

19 hesrd on your urhrstadirg, mold they go in and do it?

19

20

A

I dvt't know .

20

21

0 Did you cleat with that

whole

easy issue, or

21

22 the rrritract Issue, or the Lease issue in

your

22

23 rainnsrbtios?

23

24

A

I wouldn't say the lease issue. There was

an

24

---

15

7

8

9

10

1

12

13

14

rot rec}Jir

in party racy raiy states . i n I lliroio they

6ecidnd to k t recjjtaticm that

:ere M-Lh more strict

than ~kbtitle Ii, Federal abtitle 0 regulations, ad

undue s to ninactnae via this norktiry that ijie

facility is safe, Meaning that it wn't it t the

groundwater

one,

hrdrei )ears after ctraure within art

hudr d feet of the footprint

. And I thick the rmdatirg

is a very very useful tool- I'm afraid that the

nnMing has gotten a little bit out in front of

rational decision and I think this is a good exaiple

where the msielirg has klrd of Lost the forest for the

trees what the real ps a of it was to begin with . I

thick blot's

where the regulator was at this point .

They, had to dawstrate some way if they were ping to

tea

.=

a permit that the facility wnild net impact the

grout. ter a haviad years, and the way they did it is

by joust Pumping the grard,ater and treetirg it which

is, you know, kird of like an old soviet L1,icn type

aFp,oach, well, we'll just put a bigger egire On the

tack of the thing, rot a very elegant egireerirg

solution .

Q

Is -- when we talked r6out it earlier, the

waste relocation I thick, when we were talking abort

waste relx,eticn, you were saying that Parcel A passed

LINDA LANCE REPORTING -- 847\658\6918

93

15

16

17

18

19

m

21

22

23

B

9

10

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13

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2

3

4

5

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9

10

11

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13

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17

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19

20

21

22

Z3

24

2

3

5

6

7

the mupl or the mxIel slpestal that it would press and

Parcel B

suaa~te.1

it would rot ps?

A I

get those two caihred all the time so I

have to p track . Fart, y1;,

he et ice was that the

closure plat had a fairly

low unit ttst of waste

relocation of same two bucks a yard or something

to bat

order

. The Only way

you

could come apshere close to

rweriro that is seaming that the waste is reto

--

asstmirg that the waste is relocated Legally is that it

was relocated in the sere facility

. You wnmLci't be

able to load it up and take it to a truck and tale it to

anther LadfiLI at two bxks a yard . so, the only

aswiptlai You can get to is that it was actmiLy

disposed of within that some, facility . if you were

going to take it off of A, the only other place was the

other wit which failed the model .

0

So, I gxss what -- where I'm going is that

Parcel A or Parcel B -- Parcel B is i

hem the aert,eiyit

is at .

A

Go ahead, I'm listening .

0 And that passed the medal which essentially

I

toot to mean that the grardeter ini,,t was not so IJdi

a prahlen on Parcel B .

A

Walt, that's what the ILPA's opinion mat

able to withdraw the contaminants fuss the facility that

pose the threat, pit a toner on the facility so that the

contaminants are isolated iron the envirauewt, end

monitor the facility after those features are in piece

so we can tell how suxcessful we're maagins this

. And

at this

particular

site for several reasons that's

altogether a good solution . First, it's the presumptive

solution that the agency uses

. It's the

presunptfea

solution that the U.S . EPA uses . And it flakes sense In

a Lot of cases

because certainly it's the most

economical, and if we're talking about agyadire

tapsyets' matey, that cant be forgotten . The

taVayers

dxyt profit from the facility. They use any

income they got for other pblic reeds but they also -

hate the unique cafsbiIity to treat ltedwate cheaper

that tnybody . And when you look at the surnourding Lard

use arard this facility, this is a more

-- swn a more

t;.ctcriate

tech

. Phew you loot at the existence of

city water, when you loot at the water that we're

monitoring, the water of oawm that we're nxietirg to,

you can't drink etyway. But there are no welts around

the site . It sears to me that

we might to, you Ira,,

start molly foasirig m how to pit the real facts in

front . And I'm cacerred Men I read the Pollution

LINDA LANCE REPORTING -- 847\658\6918

1

have been. They passed the model and issued a permit

2

for it and the other parc>et they did isaJe a permit but

3

G

they rec}Jired this re,ediatim system to be implemented

before they wild issue the permit . A'd if you look

.5 beck at the

ad

permit

into it, it's because the

par

6 murkt as presented to the agony didYt neet that

100

7 foot, 100 year criteria . So, I gins it's a

se,", it

8

issue and I dn't want to get into that . simply put, it

9 didn't meet that bs i and they defaulted to this other

10

appruadi .

11

0

But it almost soxcla like if Parcel A had

12

manor bear, opened rune of us would be talking cwt this

13 hundred year leadiate treatnett; is that a fair

14.

concision

15

A

I wart to make sae I've got the right ore

.

16 Parcel A d>e; rot have the ovrfill, right?

17

0

Right

.

18

A

You know, there's a lot of different ways

.

19

Yea could have maybe mrdled it differently, maybe You

20 mild have cadged it differently

. I didn't go beck

21

ad rentt the facility . We could do that bit I er'L

22 Think that d,ag~

the facts of how we clove the

23

facility. I thick that would be an exercise in

24

aca J,ies

. I mew realty what we want to do now is be

---

actual tkerd e

4-151m

that they mitnt-~stco:! all of

Pop exeirple th~,, su d

+f,,1

.he ci Cy

"1 n iY wt nJ b -CF-l

f

c( 3~ t . -d

'UI :i

n

In

very err:'

rot, _w.

--

•

Q

6otl, &on you're talkina aFwt the Homo's

•

declaim, you're c fin1tely talking etctrt e legal

decision .

•

A MMLL, 1 krn+wliat c¢ratedariltery

facilities on site are.

M . IEL51EN : I object Mr

. Grant

. He can

go to the frets- He can disaas the facts without going

to the Legal conclusion .

M . GRANT : I'll to happy to go thragh

it but they, yew kna7, they deciod J,at

they

dsicled .

I roan I try rot to be argurelrzitive on the issues .

M . HELSIEN : But it goes to what's

practical here ad what's ~ry and realistic here

which is the heart, in my opinion, of the Board's June

1, 2006 order

. In s&meraL instances they say we shwld

fort m what's practicable, feasible and realistic

here . To oh that you have to took really at udarLyirg

facts upon which they Ivse their opinions, both the --

M . GZAXT : Ch, yeah, ad I

tat

LINDA LANE REP tTING -- 847\658\6918

1

point .

2

EXAMIk1TICN

3

BY M . GRAYSGN :

4 Q I have a male of

questions.

I ores

5

wondering

if you could, ed maybe you could use this,

6

draw a very basic di'siras, I'm a visrel perm,, and In

7

terns of the core of attention that you're talking

8 abort, I kird of

visualize

it e a bull's-eye, that the

9

center area may be where the waste is and than it kird

10

of goes out like That . If you could, just d, aaethirg

11

that's real simple .

12

(Wetness marking an blaod-oard .)

13

A

Kind of like a put pie, if you will If ymu

14

inagine a pot pie with the cyst as the ladfilt ad the

15

mat as the liter, the Landfill in cries section,

16

atthodi ass am

not loot exactly like this . It tools

17

like this

. One htrdred feet frtm to

o,*

of the taste

18

we have to haw mrptiave at this point . This area in

19

here is called the zee of attacetian . We have to

20

prove that ", thing that might core from the LadfilL

21

doe' not measurably 1rFsct the grwda3ter m the other

22

sit of that Lire . In three dirasias this waatd be

23

I

the grad sur-fam- Let's do it like this . That's the

24

tar-dfitl in

three

dimensions if you're following ae, it

LINDA LANE REPORTING -

847\658\6918

z

that a>d y+ j ,~,e clear avu* in your

&d

t' t - of tea rt>rcrs e',r gas --

w;,w

sort of

elk x r c

h to p into the yrarC o` detail you hxw

L

En , r

reij n m ¢trnel to, you Iava,, bairg rcilly

5

to uniryL en

it tisane that is certainly the case .

6

Bat, yn know, as we've talked about Dmek, or job is

7

to anfonre the regulations

. I "Van if they're cot Lair®

8

net, than it's a violation or you charge it

.

9

M . IELSTEN : Sure,

10

M

. 92AM

: Those are ralLy the options .

11

But if you're talking a6cut Legitimately his going to

12

the M(c) factors --

13

M . IELSTEN : Ri¢,t, that's that we

14

thick, uhid, the Board said go to the M(c) factors ad

75

any facts that hire rpm those determinations and 1

16

thick that's what Mr . Meese is doing .

17

THE WITNESS

: That's, You know, clearly

18

what I'm doing . I thick the 33(c) factors are

19

consistent with my obtfgatim as an ongiraer

.

20

M- [RANT : Yeah, it's --

okay, we don't

21

have to talk on the re-ord

.

I do rant to talk with him

22

ace rare time . I'll be lark In a ain/te.

23

(AA short break was talon-)

24

M, GMT : That's all I have at this

ITIM LANCE REPORTING -- 8471E68\d918

Would Le a zone that Would stilt go like that .

Q

OW.

The other grstim that I had was When

you ware referring to all the diffetait aspects of the

closure and post-closure care it seams as if you had a

piece of papa that you were looking at that bed sere

figucs on It ad I I wandering if

M3*e You would

like to mark that as a, Ed,ibit

end get a copy of it .

A

For the existing permitted facility

on Parcel

A aril Parrot B, they're simply copies out of the

-- ash,

this is not it, out of the existing permit

. had than I

have copies of the revised permit application that's

arrantty pending and I cal certainly do that- And I'll

make far tapirs of Aadh of tfiese?

M . GRANT : That would be great .

M . KEGLER : off the record.

(A discussion

was had off the record.)

BY MS

. 1eAYS7l :

0

1 was referring to when )ou were going

thrad, item ae thragh five, me beirg grarfireter,

•

tea, lemhate maigeirent, the tatter part of )Or

c4 csitim after tip break .

•

A

That was a dxurmt that I prepared at the

•

Ten}set of Mr . Helstmi,

M . IELSIEN : Yeah, I don't have a

LINDA LANCE REPORTING -- &.7\68\6918

98

---

I

IrctLen with this

. It was soirg to the Stte

";ay,

FvatL

:M1y it i4 quire to Le Sctnlitted t:0 ytJ

94'S . it

was ckre at

fly irstnrtim to swnit to the state, so .

142 . CFAKT

; Let's

110

off rntil he gets

tw:k .

c I

(A short brink was taken,)

7

BY MS . GRAYSON :

D

Q

Can, other q,estio,. At one point Ohm you

9

were talking about the overhe4t yw said that exaunirg

10

ad llwirg is not without issues- Mat would some of

11

those issues be?

12

A

iJelL, when you a u1e waste there is an odor

13

i53L . So, you're going to have a, significant increase

14

In potential for

odors.

You can mitigate that by dnirg

15

it drirg the winter auntie, but in this partiwtor

16

cage, you know, that would affect schedite also,

17

linotirg that to a particular wird~ of tine, If You

18

were to -- when you move waste, you ear a the

19

construction workers to the leadrate, sharp neteriat, so

20

that rreterial and the caetn.ctim

work, you have to

21

de~etap a corstnrtim writer safety plan to protect the

72

workers, You also have residsl tearhate that

my 6e as

23

pert of that,

and

in this particular case if ware goirg

24

to be taking the garbage, Loading it m vehicles and

.

LPDA IAMM REPORTING -- &7\&%\6918

LIIDA . . LANCE RERRTI.NG -- 847\658\6918

10'1

102

1

rtkirii it into the, at Leest for a short prricei of tine,

rrao

de p±Lie road or aorc s the phlic r

,j,

it

=r>at, eeatter potential safety cr rua.ztu~

i=sje rat.

~ I ree_s to ir_ rcsol`red

Ad aki~I .

5

MS, Gt4YSt

: That's aLL I have . Thn'k

6

you.

7

MR

. HELSTEN : I have nothing,

8

(Exhibit No's 6, 7, ad 8 were marked

9

for idttificatim an 8-2-(36 .)

10

M2 . (RANT : IJe're finished, I weld Like

11

to attach three exhibits

. Exhibit Nuiter 6 is titled

12

Premature closure Cast Estimate and was referral to by

13

Mr

. Moose drirg the deposition. Exhibit 7 -- I'm

14 sorry, Ed,ibit 6 is part

B

. Exhibit 7 is Premature

15

Close Cost Estimate - Parcel A, m the first page,

16

ad was also referred to ad used by Mr . Moose, Nd

17

Exhibit No . 8 is --

18

THE WITNESS: Mayte alternative cL n

19

appcech

.

20

FR . [RANT :

Right- It's mother

21

dxuient, at the top shay

. Enwirvraiital, Ins

.

22

Alternative, how would ytu

describe

It?

23

THE WITLESS : I'd call it the elternative

24

closure approach .

STATE OF ILLINOIS)

NNTY OF McHENRY) SS

I LIMN A- LANCE, Certified 9,orthad

R

er No- 84-j565, eg lsteredCc~Prt'otyfeasiorsalrRyg~nrter,

Il~mis,, l

dher

Mcli of

cxamratian,

P

truth

.E.,

ad

PEE,

nothing

previous

wee

bit

dlthe .y

to

rt~Hitacm

certify

the mlmenoement

byme

that

to

OEVIN

testify

ofAhis

.

to

MXr;E

the

~

that

taken

there

atthewere

tine

I

present

ARTIER

and place

CERTIFY

those

in

parses

the

that

caption

the

and

deposition

parties

steified

aswasad

indicated m the appearance page of said transcript .

shorthand the foregoingI

ARTIER CERTIFY that I rcrted in

caused to be treat d

ngs ad thereafter

ofeg

an

o ire transcript, peges

of

1 thrall,my

, rthad

in"PT

rotes .

is a true d bor'rett trauri ption

suit

thereoffor

nor

nor

.

inan any

I in

wayI

ay

FLRTHER

related

wayCERTIFY

interested

to aty

that

of

in

the

I

the

aR

parties

a

not

tca,t

carrel

to this

IN WITNESS I&EREOF, I have hererito set

Aigst

my hardAail.D

.

affixed

2MS .

my notarial seal this 14

of

r .

LINDA LANCE REPORTING -- 847\658\6918

OFPICIAL SEAL

LINDA A LANCE

SOTARY

SPATE OF KLpJYS

~ry

aI16 as

LINDA LANCE REPORTING -- 847\658\E918 .

um

rr )

4%

Certified 9,a-thad

Registered

Notary Rblic

ProfessirrslMollery

Conty;enterer

103

10

:

1

FR . (RANT : This was also used

end

2 referred to during the dgxsitim .

2

3

MR. HELSIEN : Mr . Moose, you have the

3

4

opportunity to review the de esitim

--

4

5

THE WITNESS : . Yes, I would Like to

.

5

6

FR . HESTDI : --

for amaray. So, you'd

6

7

Litre to, okay. !So, we reserve Signature .

7

8

MR . GRANT- I'LL order it tp .

B

9

(Ed,ibit No

. 4 was marked for

9

10

identification m 8-2-06,)

10

11

MR . G+ANT

: Also, we would like to add as

11

12 an exhibit, Exhibit No

. 4 which is m atllne of the

12

Is topics that Mr . Moose disused of the queue tasks and

13

14 disarcsel during the depasitim-

1

15

TFE WITNESS

: That was acttally discussed

15

16 with Mr

. Child m June 13, 2006- It's basically

an

16

17 agenda for the heating .

17

13

MR . GRANT . Okay.

15

19

MR . FELSTEN : . It Touches upon isles

19

2'J

disused

today .

21)

21

FR .

GLINT : Sure .

21

22

73

(The deposition ended at 3 :55 p.m.)

24

---

5

6

7

8

9

10

12

13

14

15

16

17 .

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

F

EEFcRE TFE fLLIfr3JS FCLLLTTQ,I Cfltmpj raYuO

EPLE OF THE SATE C3 iLL 1 FX)1S, 1

Gcn~lElila'~t,

cs.

3 Ho,

M-191

m

Ccyuu

m

CITY

.nlci{sl

ILIirvis

Cf

rY

lKTL.'RIS,

csrpratim,.4Dw'pcratim,

:I L7-m CEWA1Y,

Illirnisa-d

INCthe.

)

)

Respu,dcrGs .

I, PEVIN A. MYSE, P.E., DEE, h,-t/ certify

that I have read tha for iru trarccripr of m;

deposition SiVt1 at the tine ad ptarn aforesaid,

casistiny of

p3ga 1 thrayl 103, ircluiw, a,i I cb

again

srtsrrlha

ad make oath that the sore is a tnc,

correct and cmplate trascript

of my &p itiai so

given as

aforesaid, as it rna aTpears .

UtVIN A . RALSt, V.t

.,

L&t

this e~ri6edday

a-d

of s.crn

to hafcre

,

2006ne

.

MY OFFICIAL SEAL

:

WJIAR KSLTL

LIMA LAME RERRTING --

867Nh8\6918

I6

---

pail, I

37:10 ; 72 :11 ; 73;10,12 ;

84 :10,11 ; 94:13 ; 103 :15

add

103 :11

additional 15 :3

address 22 :14

;

74 :7

addressed 102 :4

adequacy 41

:9

adequate 19 :19

adjust 29 :22

Administrative 3 :21

adopt 93 :2

advise 25 :19

affect 101 :16

affixed 104 :16

afford 62

:18,22 ; 63

:1,6

aforesaid 105 :11,15

afraid 93 :8

agencies 12 :17,20

agency 1 :21 ; 2:10

.5 ; 4

:12,

15 ; 8:22 ; 10:19 ; 12:19 ;

16:7 ; 34:13,14 ; 57 :9 ;

64 :15,23

; 86

:5 ; 92 :13 ;

95 :6 ; 96:0

agenda 103

:17

ago 9:8

; 42:6

agree 36 :20, 41 :1,10 ;

47:1

; 63 :20,23 ; 66:20

agreed 28:22 ; 86 :4

agreement 22 :22

; 89 :7,9

agrees 14 :14

ahead 94 :20

alleged 5 :3 ; 25 :17,21 ;

70

:16

allegedly 87 :23

allowed 47 :20 ; 98 :3

almost 95 :11

alone 81 :14

already 18 :7 ; 27:4 ; 57:11 ;

60 :12

t

alternative 2

:23 ; 60:21,

22

; 78:16; 86:1 ; 102:18,

22,23

although 4 :16 ; 36:16

;

57

:8

; 82

:11

; 99:16

altogether 96:7

ambiguous 43 :13

American 6 :9

amount 30:17 ; 31 :7 ; 33:2,

6,21 ; 39:9 ; 40:13,21 ;

41 :16,23 ; 58:8 ; 62:14 ;

63 :14 ; 78:24 ; 81 :14 ; 93:3

analysis 7 :23 ; 36 :7

ancillary 97:4,9

and/or 67 :23

Andrews 27 :15,17,19

annual 85 :22 ; 87:5

another 6:18;21 :9; 27 :6 ;

66:13 ; 67:6; 68 :13 ; 82 :3 ;

86:1 ; 94 :12; 102:3,20

answer 56 :20 ; 57:16

; 66

:9 ;

67 :20

answers 2

:19,20 ; 69

:10 ;

75

:16

anybody 27:9 ; 28 :4 ; 75;7 ;

96 :16

anyway 32:18 ; 80:4 ; 96 :21 ;

101 :1

app . 40 :15

appearance 104

:9

appeared 1 :20,24 ; 2

:3

.5,8 ;

26 :18

appears 49 :11

; 73

:24

;

105 :15

apples

-44 :24 -

applicant 4 :21

application 17 :9,12,16 ;

30

:7 ; 37:19

; 40 :4

; 64:8,

17 ; 65 :1 ; 77:11

; 78 :12,

08-02 .06 Deposition of Devin 1loose

----------------------- -

S

--------------------------

55 .50 41 :4

s;701,000 81 :6

5809,400 56 :2

$841,000 03 :22

77 :12

2

.6 61 :'14,18,20 ; 62 :3,12,

19 ;

91 :8

20 4

:19 ; 23 :17

200 2:2 ; 76 :13 ; 80 :23

2000

20 :4,8,9

; 31 :22 ;

53 :13,23 ; 71

:23

642-4414 2

:3

69 2 :19,20

69,000 80 :8

--- -- ---------------

7

7 2 :15,22 ; 102 :8,13,14

I --------------------------

_° . ,----

'77 5 :23

'80's 7 :15 ; 8 :11 ; 20:19

;

21 ;8 ; 54:22

2000-155-LFM 31

:22 ; 32 :13

2000-156-LFM 32 :5

2001 57 :22 ; 71 :23

2004 22

:11,21,23

; 23 :17 ;

26 ;8,10; 27 :7

; 30 :16 ;

31 :7 ; 32:20

7,500 83 :1

7

.4 61

:21,23 ; 62 :11,18,21 ;

77 :3,9,16,20 ; 78 :3 ; 83 :13

701,000 82 :1

746,000 81

:23

782-5544 1

:23

.5

'83 5 :24 ; 7 :16

2005 27 :8 ; 32 :21 ; 64 :11 ;

----------------------

'84 7 :16

70 :15 ; 71

:8,16 ; 72 :10

a

'87 8:12

2006 1 :14; 69:11

; 74

:9 ;

'88 8 :12

86 :14 ; 97:20 ; 103 :16 ;

8 2 :23 ; 102 :8,17

'90's 30:21

104:16 .5 ; 105 :19

8-2.06 5 :9 ; . 25 :8 ; 69:1

;

--------------------------

2007 86 :14

102 :9

; 103 :10

201 81 :2

8 .4 61 :10

20th 1 :18.5

809,000 57:24 ; 90 :19 ; 91 :6

- 2 :12 ; 103 :22,24

217 1 :23 .5

814-5388 1

:19 .5

----------------------------------------------------

22 .17 25 :24

815 2 :7 .5

22nd 7:5

84 .

1565 104 :4

------------- ------------

23rd 18 :23

841,000 83 :24

.086 58:20 ; 59

:11

24th 18:24 ; 19:2

85 84:4

------ 25 2

:18 .5

0

27th 19 :2

28,000 79 :1

--------------------------

03-191 1

:4 ; 105 :4

2810 2 :2

950 40 :1,12

086 58:5 ; 59 :10

2nd 1 :14

950,000 39

:24

; 40 :20,24 ;

-------------------------- --------------------------

41 :12

1

3

975 40 :2

______--__----_-------

975,000 40 :12

1 1 :15

; 2

:18

; 5

:a,11

;

3 2:15,19,20 ; 68 :24 ; 69:5, 99 2:15 .5

97 :20 ; 104 :11 .5 ; 105 :12

8,12 ; 91 :2

1 .3 90 . 18 ; 91 :1

3.50 41 :3

A

1 .4 65

:12

3 .7 65 :11

--------------------------

1 .6 61 :18

30 9:18 ; 15 :9 ; 55:23

;

A .D . 1 :14.; 104:16 .5

10 2 :18,18 .5,21,22,23 ;

56

:4 ; 76 :17 ; 90 :17

;

abandon 79 :13

61

:4,24 ; 62

:11 ; 65 :4,13 ;

91 :11,14

; 92 :4,8,13,14

abandoned 53 :24 ; 79 :22

77 :24

300 76 :14

abandonment 54 :1 ; 79 :11

10,000 83 :5

300,000 40 :9

ability 48 :12 ; 49 :18

;

10-20-04 2 :18 .5 ; 29 :9

312 1 :19.5

; 2

:3

72 :14 ; 88:14

10_1 42 :7,9 ; 45 :24 ; 46:4 ;

33 98:12,14,18

able 37:21 ; 59:22 ; 71 :6;

49:1 ; 50 :20

35 26:20,22 ; 27:1

82

:12

; 94:11 ; 96:1

100 2 :6

; 36:4,22

; 76 :12,

360 43:16

academic 38:8

13 ; 91 :14 ; 92 :4 ; 95 :6,7

3 :55 103

:23

academics 95 :24

101,000 42 :6

----------------------

Academy 6 :9

102 2 :21,22,23

accept 12 :11 ; 26:8 ; 34 :11 :

1021 1 :22

----------------------

41

:19

103 2 :24 ; 104 :11 .5 ; 105:12 4 2:15 .5,24

; 103:9,12

accepted 41 :8

11 2 :24

400 76 :15

accepting 57 :1

110,000 91 :7

401,000 90

:17,24

access 89 :11,21 ; 90 :1,6

1150 1 :13

45,000 82 :3

accordance 28 :21 ; 70 :17,

122nd 5 :4

475,000 40:14

19 ; 81 :22

13 103 :16

49 7 :5

according 42 :7

130th 5 :5

490-4906 2 :7 .5

accountant 13 :18

1389 2 :6 .5

--------------------------

accreditation 6 :13 ; 7 :2

14 22

:21 ; 23 :12

5

accuracy 103:6

14th 104 :16

--------------------------

accurate 17 :18; 47 :5 ; 77 :4

15,000 79 :10

5 2 :18,18 .5 ; 25 :7,11 ;

acquired 9 :7

155 32 :13

25 :17

acre 84 :4

156 32:12

5_1 65

:11 ; 77:13

acres 84:4

16 41 :17

5 .6 83 :7,13

across 102:2

16th 57:18

5.7 65 :6

; 83:9

Act 4:3 ; 10 :9 ; 27:5

; 64 :3 ;

17 33

:21 ; 63 :12,22

50,000 82 ;23

66 :5

18 69:11

500 76 :16

action 4:3 ; 23 :18 ; 28 :12 ;

188 1

:18 .5

52 52:16

29

:23

19276 1 :22 .5

---------- --- -------

actions 69 :13,17 ; 70 :10

1940's 42 :15

6

activities 53 :20 ; 56 :7 ;

1996 40 :15

--------------------------

70 :3 ; 76 :17; 81

:22 ;

1 :10 1

:15

6 2 :21

; 102 :8,11,14

86 :15,17,19 ; 88

:19,22 ;

6-13=05 . 2 :24

90 :13 . 15

2

60 4

:17

activity 81 :21 ; 84

:6,7

-

60601 1 :19 ; 2 :2.5

actual 34:4 ; 44 :14

; 53 :12 ;

7 2:19

; 40:3,11

; 41 :9 ; ---

61105 . 1389 2:7

58:23 ; 83 :5

65 :10

; 68:24 ; 69:5,7 ;

62794-9276 1 :23

actually 11 :16 ; 12 :8

;

---

00-02 70611epusiti an of nevin 8,mse

14 ; 00:5 ; 100 :11

I utt_nuetion 36 :4 ; 43 :18 ;

j

44 :20

; 47 :6,7,11,24 ;

big 8 :2 ; 37:12 ; 42 :1 ;

categories 76 :6 ; 78 :20

applications 21 :22,23

50 :20 ; . 53 :4

bi99er 93 :19

categorized 90 :14

applied 45

:16

42

8

:2,8,10,12,19 ; 51 :24 ;

79:21

; 99 :7,19

category 25 :24

bi99est 44 :3

bind 67 :21 ; 65 :10

approach 2 :235

; 33 :6,12,

_caused 104

:11_ .

14 ; 60 :20 ; 65 :20 ; 76:5 ;

attorney/client 24 :3

center 99 : 9

81 ;23 ; 93 :19 ; 95 :10 ;

audit 21

:3

96 :18

; 102 :19,24

binds 67 :23

central 73

:17

August 1 :14 ; 7 :5 ; 104 :16 .5 bit 11 :10 ; 20 :1 ;

35 :7 ;

cents 58:6