1
1
ILLINOIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD
2
IN THE MATTER OF:
) R03-9
3
)
PROPOSED NEW AND UPDATED )
4 RULES FOR MEASUREMENT AND )
NUMERICAL SOUND EMISSIONS )
5 STANDARDS AMENDMENTS TO 35)
ILL. ADM CODE 901 and 910 )
6
7
8
RULEMAKING HEARING BEFORE THE ILLINOIS POLLUTION
9 CONTROL BOARD, and Hearing Officer Marie Tipsord, and taken
10 before Ann Marie Hollo, CSR, RPR, RMR, at 1:30 o'clock
11 P.M., on September 1, 2005, at the Offices of the Illinois
12 Environmental Protection Agency, Illinois Pollution Control
13 Hearing Room, 1021 North Grand Avenue, Springfield,
14 Illinois, pursuant to notice.
15
16
17
Keefe Reporting Company
11 North 44th Street
18
Belleville, Illinois 62226
(618)277-0190
19
(800)244-0190
20
21
22
23
24
25
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 Marie Tipsord, Esq., Hearing Officer
Illinois Pollution Control Board
3 100 West Randolph Street
Suite 11-500
4 Chicago, Illinois 60601
5
6 Illinois Pollution Control Board Members:
7
G. Tanner, Girard, Ph.D.,
704 North Schrader Avenue,
8
Havana, Illinois 62644
9
Anand Rao
100 West Randolph Street
10
Suite 11-500
Chicago, Illinois 60601
11
Thomas E. Johnson, Esq.
12
1717 Philo Road
Urbana, Illinois 61802
13
14 John C. Henriksen
Illinois Association of Aggregate Producers
15 1115 South Second Street
Springfield, Illinois 62704
16
17 Jim Hafliger
Illinois Department of Natural Resources
18 One Natural Resources Way
Springfield, Illinois 62702
19
20 Willard Pierce
Evenson Explosives, LLC
21 516A Bedford Road
Morris, Illinois 60450
22
E X H I B I T S
23 NUMBER
ADMITTED AS EVIDENCE
Exhibits 4 and 5
22
24 Exhibit 6
33
Exhibit 7
34
25
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
3
1
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: Good afternoon.
2
My name is Marie Tipsord, and I've been
3
appointed by the Board to serve as hearing
4
officer in this proceeding, entitled, "In the
5
Matter of Proposed New and Updated Rules for
6
Measurement and Numerical Sound Emission
7
Standards Amendments to 35 Ill. Admin Code,
8
part 901 and 910." This is docket number
9
R03-9.
10
To my right is Dr. Tanner Girard, the lead
11
board member assigned to this matter. And to
12
his right is Board Member Thomas Johnson. To
13
my immediate left is Anand Rao of our technical
14
unit. And also present today is John Nittle,
15
attorney, assistant to Board Member Johnson.
16
And Erin Connolly, our rules coordinator.
17
This is the fifth hearing to be held in
18
this proceeding and is being held at the
19
request of the Illinois Association of
20
Aggregate Producers pursuant to Section 5-40 of
21
the Illinois Administrative Procedure Act. The
22
purpose of today's hearing is to hear the
23
pre-filed testimony from the Illinois
24
Aggregate -- Illinois Association of Aggregate
25
Producers and the Illinois Department of
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
4
1
Natural Resources.
2
As time allows, we will also hear from
3
anyone else who wishes to testify. At this
4
time, is there anyone else present who wishes
5
to testify?
6
MR. PIERCE: I am.
7
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: And you are
8
with?
9
MR. PIERCE: I'm Willard Pierce with
10
Evenson Explosives.
11
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: Right. You're
12
with the Illinois Association of Aggregate
13
Producers, and we have your summary pre-file.
14
Okay. Thank you.
15
Anyone may ask a question. However, I do
16
ask that you raise your hand, wait for me to
17
acknowledge you. And after I have acknowledged
18
you, please state your name and whom you
19
represent before you begin your question.
20
Please speak one at a time. If you are
21
speaking over each other, the court reporter
22
will not be able to get your questions on the
23
record.
24
Please note that any question asked by a
25
board member or staff are intended to help
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
5
1
build a complete record for the Board's
2
decision and not to express any preconceived
3
notion or bias.
4
Also just for the record, I would like to
5
note that I had previously heard from Pat
6
Sharky (sp) who is representing the Village of
7
Bridgeview, and Dr. Paul Schomer who had hoped
8
to testify today, but Dr. Schomer had an
9
accident and is unable to attend. Ms. Sharky
10
notified us today that she will not be
11
attending the hearing, but they will be filing
12
additional comments before the close of the
13
comment period.
14
MR. HENRIKSON: Okay.
15
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: At this time,
16
Dr. Girard, would you like to say anything?
17
BOARD MEMBER GIRARD: Good afternoon.
18
On behalf of the Board, I welcome everyone
19
to this hearing to update our noise rules. We
20
are grateful for the time and effort that many
21
people have contributed to this process. We
22
look forward to the testimony and questions
23
today. Thank you.
24
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: Thank you.
25
With that, we'll begin with Mr. Henriksen
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
6
1
and the aggregate producers.
2
MR. HENRIKSON: Thank you. May it please
3
the Illinois Pollution Control Board, my name
4
is John Henriksen. I am the executive director
5
of the Illinois Association of Aggregate
6
Producers.
7
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: Go ahead and
8
swear him in.
9
[WITNESS SWORN.]
10
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: And, you know,
11
we'll go ahead and swear in Mr. Pierce and
12
also -- I'm sorry.
13
MR. HAFLIGER: Jim Hafliger with DNR.
14
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: And Mr. Hafliger
15
at this time, too. So if there are questions
16
that might be asked, you can all answer at once
17
and you'll already be sworn. Okay. Very good.
18
[WITNESSES SWORN.]
19
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: Thank you. All
20
right. Go ahead.
21
BOARD MEMBER JOHNSON: Can I bring my
22
secretary in here? No. To swear her.
23
MR. HENRIKSON: As I was saying, I manage
24
the trade association representing companies
25
that produce aggregates. And for those of you
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
7
1
don't know, that's crushed sand, stone and
2
gravel. We have 113 members that operated in
3
80 out of 102 Illinois counties last year to
4
put it in perspective. We produce 111 million
5
tons of these materials.
6
Since 1995, my industry has been regulated
7
for blasting by the Illinois Department of
8
Natural Resources, Office of Mines and
9
Minerals, in accordance with Section 6.5 of the
10
Surface Mined-Land Conservation and Reclamation
11
Act. Since 1982, the coal mining industry has
12
been regulated by the same agency in accordance
13
with Sections 3.13 of the Surface Coal Mining
14
Land Conservation and Reclamation Act.
15
Office of Minerals has promulgated a
16
comprehensive set of regulations that subject
17
both of these types of blasting operations,
18
coal mining and aggregate mining, to air blast
19
or ground vibration monitoring, or both, as
20
necessary to prevent property damage and
21
protect public safety. IDNR regulations
22
protect the general public from the impacts of
23
air overpressure resulting from blasting
24
operations of the mines. Both the aggregate
25
mining and coal mining blasting regulations are
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
8
1
enforced by a highly trained, technologically
2
proficient inspection staff using
3
state-of-the-art monitoring equipment.
4
Jim Hafliger's testimony -- the gentleman
5
sitting to my left -- Jim Hafliger's testimony
6
later this afternoon will outline in detail
7
this comprehensive regulatory program.
8
Although blasting operations at aggregate
9
and coal mines are currently regulated by IDNR,
10
the Board is seeking to maintain an essentially
11
duplicative and overlapping regulatory program
12
for these operations, pursuant to 35 Ill. Admin
13
Code 901.109. During our last public hearing,
14
we argued that the Board could and should elect
15
not to regulate an industry that is already
16
heavily regulated by the State.
17
In the March 17, 2005 Hearing Officer's
18
Order and Opinion, the Board declined to follow
19
this assertion and stated that any exemption
20
from the Board's noise regulations would
21
require a statutory exemption. This holding
22
was based upon the Board's construction of
23
Section 24 of the Illinois Environmental
24
Protection Act that states as follows:
25
"No person shall emit beyond the
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
9
1
boundaries of his property any noise that
2
unreasonably interferes with the enjoyment of
3
life or with any lawful business or
4
activity" -- this is the important part -- "so
5
as to violate any regulation or standard
6
adopted by the Board under this Act."
7
Although we are mindful -- or I am mindful
8
and my industry is mindful of what Section 24
9
states, it's critical for the Board to bear in
10
mind that the regulations or standards adopted
11
by the Board are promulgated pursuant to
12
Section 25 of the Act.
13
As outlined in Section 25 of this Act,
14
"The Board" -- and this is important -- "may
15
adopt regulations prescribing limitations on
16
noise emissions beyond the boundaries of the
17
property of any person and prescribing
18
requirements and standards for equipment and
19
procedures for monitoring noise and the
20
collection, reporting, retention of data
21
resulting from such monitoring." "May adopt."
22
Pursuant to this grant of rule-making
23
authority, the Board has elected to regulate
24
highly impulsive sound from blasting operations
25
at mines. They've elected to regulate our
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
10
1
blasting. A source of sound that's heavily
2
regulated already by a sister agency.
3
Yet the Board has elected not to regulate
4
other sources of noise, despite the lack of a
5
statutory exemption for each of these sources
6
found in Section 24 of the Act. Moreover, the
7
Board has elected not to exempt these sources
8
despite the fact that these sources of noise
9
are currently unregulated by the State.
10
For example, the Board rules at 901.107
11
provides specific exemptions for sound emitted
12
from emergency warning devices, unregulated
13
safety relief valves, lawn care maintenance
14
equipment and agricultural field machinery used
15
during the day, equipment being used for
16
construction, land use for automobile,
17
motorcycle racing, and any land used for
18
contests, rallies, time trials, test runs or
19
similar operations of any self-propelled device
20
during the day.
21
Although the IAAP acknowledges the Board's
22
authority to decide what activities are subject
23
to limits on noise emissions, this authority
24
cannot be unlimited.
25
Specifically, we contend it's unreasonable
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
11
1
to regulate sound generated by blasting
2
operations at mines, operations already subject
3
to the comprehensive State regulatory program,
4
while electing not to regulate other sources of
5
noise. Especially when there are no exemptions
6
in Section 24, exempting the other source of
7
noise. What the Pollution Control Board did in
8
its wisdom is elect to regulate some sources
9
than not. We contend that you should also
10
elect to not regulate blasting associated with
11
coal mining or aggregate mining, especially
12
since we are heavily regulated by a state
13
agency, as Mr. Hafliger will outline.
14
Therefore, the IAAP, with respect to
15
Section 901 of the Board's rules, the
16
regulations identifying those activities not
17
subject to Board noise regulations be amended
18
to state as follows:
19
And what I'm going to say is in little bit
20
of variance with my pre-filed testimony, since
21
my strike-through didn't work.
22
But anyway. Subsection H, we would
23
suggest that and respectfully submit that
24
901.107 (h) state, in part, 901 shall not apply
25
to impulsive sound produced by explosive
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
12
1
blasting activities conducted on any Class C
2
land used as specified by capital L-B-C-S
3
Codes 8300 and 8500, period.
4
Land-Based Classification Standard 8300
5
refers to coal mines. LBCS Code 8500 refers to
6
aggregate mines. As outlined previously,
7
blasting operations at coal and aggregate mines
8
are currently regulated by IDNR's comprehensive
9
programs.
10
Amending 901.107 (h), as outlined
11
previously, allows the Board to regulate
12
non-mining blasting activities, pursuant to
13
901.109, and leaves the regulation of blasting
14
operations at mines to IDNR. Given the
15
flexibility of the Board's rule-making
16
authority under Section 25 of the Illinois
17
Environmental Protection Act, flexibility that
18
the Board has exercised previously to exempt
19
other sources of noise from regulation, we
20
respectfully submit that the Board should amend
21
901.107 in order to defer to IDNR's
22
comprehensive regulatory scheme.
23
But in the event that the Board elects to
24
continue regulating blasting operations
25
associated with the Illinois mining industry,
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
13
1
the IAAP respectfully submits that Section
2
901.109 should be amended to bring the Board's
3
regulatory program in harmony with the program
4
enforced by IDNR.
5
We do appreciate the Board's amendment of
6
its proposed rules in response to our previous
7
comments in this rule making. The Board did
8
follow some of the changes we suggested, and we
9
do appreciate that.
10
Although these changes help to bring
11
Section 901.109 closer to the regulatory
12
standards enforced by IDNR, a further review of
13
the proposed rule making has revealed other
14
changes that must be made in the Board's rules.
15
First, Section 901.109, little "c,"
16
provides that allowable sound limits of
17
blasting operations prior to 7:00 a.m. must be
18
reduced by 10 decibels. Given that decibel
19
limits are logarithmic, a 123 decibel limit
20
represents approximately only 30 percent of 133
21
decibels. In order to accurately and fairly
22
regulate the same way we're regulated by IDNR,
23
we suggest that Section 901.109(c) should be
24
amended as follows:
25
All blasting shall be conducted between
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
14
1
sunrise and sunset except in emergency
2
situations where unscheduled blasting is
3
required to ensure operator or public safety.
4
This change reflects the fact that sunrise
5
is often well before 7:00 a.m. during the
6
summer, the time that aggregate operations are
7
most active.
8
Second, the regulatory focus in Section
9
901.109 must be shifted from property lines to
10
protected structures. Regulating noise levels
11
at a property line is irrelevant to ensuring
12
public health and safety. Section 901.109
13
should be amended by replacing all references
14
to, quote, "receiving class A or B land,"
15
unquote, with quote, "protected structures,"
16
unquote, and then amended by referring
17
specifically to the way protective structures
18
are regulated by DNR in relation to coal mining
19
and aggregate mining.
20
My pre-filed testimony contained language,
21
but as my expert, Mr. Hafliger, points out,
22
this language is taken just from the aggregate
23
program. And the coal mining industry, their
24
protected structures are articulated
25
differently. So I would ask that the
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
15
1
Board -- if the Board is going to be planning
2
to regulate mine industry and the coal mining
3
industry, that it focuses on protected
4
structures, and then regulate those structures
5
that are protected under the respective
6
aggregate and coal mining regulations.
7
Third, and frankly, even though it
8
may -- it's a very subtle point, but even most
9
importantly, in this context, new Part 910
10
35 Illinois Code 910, purports to establish
11
measurement procedures for the enforcement of
12
35 Illinois Code 900 and 901, procedures that
13
would include monitoring to enforce the limits
14
specified in 901.109. However, none of the
15
methods described in Part 910 will monitor
16
highly impulsive sound from blasting.
17
In essence, Part 910 must flatly state
18
that monitoring undertaken to ensure compliance
19
with Section 901.109 requires the use of a
20
blasting seismograph with a low frequency
21
response of 2.0 Hertz, and that this machinery
22
be used in conformance with manufacturer's
23
specifications and industry standards. Highly
24
impulsive sound from blasting can only be
25
accurately monitored by using this type of flat
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
16
1
response, sound pressure level microphone and
2
recording device. In the absence of the use of
3
such a device, any Board measurement procedures
4
purporting to show compliance or noncompliance
5
with the performance standards established by
6
Section 901.109 are totally meaningless.
7
The gentleman to my right with Evenson
8
Explosives will outline in detail the technical
9
problems that are inherent in the Board's
10
standards in 901 and 109. And more
11
importantly, he'll outline why the part 910
12
regulations are so -- woefully deficient.
13
At this time, I've concluded my testimony,
14
but I'd be glad to answer questions.
15
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: Let's go ahead
16
with Mr. Pierce, and we'll have questions of
17
the panel, if that's okay.
18
MR. HENRIKSON: I would like the gentleman
19
from IDNR to speak next, if I may.
20
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: That's fine.
21
MR. HENRIKSON: Because I talked about the
22
IDNR program. He'll help put it in
23
perspective, and Willard can go last. And his
24
testimony is kind of based upon Jim's
25
testimony.
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
17
1
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: All right.
2
That's fine. We'll do that then.
3
MR. HAFLIGER: Okay. Thank you.
4
My name is Jim Hafliger. I work for the
5
Illinois Department of Natural Resources Office
6
of Mines and Minerals, Mine Safety and Training
7
Division. My work title is Chief Division
8
Technical Explosive Specialist.
9
The information I'd like to share with you
10
today and respectfully submit for your
11
consideration, first of all, is basically a
12
program overview of what our responsibilities
13
are when we look through the rule-making
14
process that you're undertaking currently. We
15
would like to respectfully submit your
16
consideration on the voting areas of duplicity
17
in regards to our already existing program.
18
So to give you an overall summary of what
19
our program responsibilities are and how we're
20
structured here, I'd like to start out by
21
telling you that we have a staff of 12 members
22
that work out of three regional offices. We
23
have an office in Ottawa, Illinois, and we have
24
an office in Springfield, which is our main
25
administrative office, and we have an office in
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
18
1
Benton, Illinois.
2
Out of that number, out of that 12, we
3
have 8 inspectors that are dedicated full time
4
as a lead state agency, regulating the use of
5
commercial explosives in the State of Illinois.
6
Within the scope of our regulatory
7
responsibilities that we're statutorily
8
delegated to regulating explosive use, handling
9
and storage at the State's 172 active surface
10
mining operations. Within the scope of our
11
program and what we do, our inspectors are in
12
the field on a daily basis. And we have
13
monitoring equipment that includes 35
14
seismographs that register and record for our
15
analysis by our division experts the traces
16
reflected as a result of air blast or air
17
overpressure and ground vibrations at these
18
operations.
19
One thing that we stress as part of our
20
comprehensive program, the way we regulate
21
this, first of all, is we do have a mature
22
program in place. The State was initially
23
delegated with authority to regulate explosive
24
use in the mid 1930s. Subsequently in the
25
1980s, in the mid 1980s, we began our coal
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
19
1
regulatory blasting program. And then
2
subsequently in the mid '90s, we began
3
regulating blasting operations at the surface
4
aggregate operations.
5
Through the course of this and the
6
inception of this program and development of
7
our staff and their expertise, we've attained
8
35 seismographs that we use. And the nature of
9
government today is -- provides an opportunity
10
for us to reflect on the fiscal
11
responsibilities that we have in maintaining
12
this program. And for your knowledge, I
13
respectfully submit that these 35 seismographs
14
that we have for monitoring are valued at
15
nearly one hundred thousand dollars for our
16
monitoring equipment that our agent inspectors
17
use statewide.
18
Our people are also trained. Our field
19
inspectors are trained to go out and use this
20
equipment and analyze this equipment. It's
21
specifically designed for monitoring blasting
22
at surface operations. We're trained in the
23
use of this, and we're trained in the analysis
24
of the data that we subsequently recover after
25
these.
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
20
1
A point that I believe worth making is
2
that we regularly monitor these sites. We take
3
a proactive stance to making sure that the
4
operators are fulfilling their statutory
5
obligation of compliance. And for us to
6
determine non-compliance at this operation, we
7
do that by monitoring with the seismographs on
8
a regular basis, and not specifically in
9
response to a citizen's complaint. Our
10
regulatory philosophy is that we're proactive,
11
not reactive. We don't just specifically show
12
up after there's been an incident or an
13
accident involving property damage or personal
14
injury.
15
And as part of the proactive program that
16
we have, where we stress compliance through
17
education, we have an extremely comprehensive
18
training program, which is referred to by other
19
agencies as one of the most comprehensive
20
blasting regulatory programs in the United
21
States.
22
And part of our program that we have, when
23
I stress compliance through education, is that
24
people that are in the field that are actually
25
doing the blasting are trained by our agency
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
21
1
through a comprehensive training device and a
2
certification program that covers a multitude
3
of topics, that there are 22 specified within
4
the scope of our regulations, which have
5
already been submitted to you as part of my
6
summary of my testimony today. So you'll have
7
those for reference. So that's kind of an
8
overview of our program.
9
Our training, what we do, we have an
10
outstanding safety record. The industry does.
11
They've been cooperative in maintaining the
12
safety record. We recently achieved a landmark
13
safety achievement, which I had the opportunity
14
to announce at a venue last week, the Illinois
15
Mining Institute, where the aggregate and
16
surface mining operations in Illinois recently
17
completed a five-year period, during which time
18
they had used an estimated 500 million pounds
19
of explosives over a 5-year period without a
20
reported injury from the use of explosives,
21
which is admirable, to say the least.
22
So I'd like to address any questions that
23
you may have specifically about our program.
24
And I encourage you to look at the regulations
25
that I've submitted to you during the course of
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
22
1
your rule-making process. And if you have
2
any -- if there's -- I'd also like to offer,
3
you know, our expertise, any reference to our
4
program or any of our staff if you have any
5
additional questions about the equipment that
6
we utilize, what our existing program is, or
7
anything else you might have in reference to
8
that.
9
So with that, if you have any questions,
10
I'd be glad to address those.
11
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: Thank you.
12
And just a little bit of housekeeping. We
13
will admit as Exhibit Number 4, the Illinois
14
Department of Natural Resources Rules 62
15
Illinois Admin Code Part 300.
16
And as Exhibit Number 5, 62 Illinois Admin
17
Code, Sections 1816.61 through 1816.68. And
18
that's, as I said earlier, for ease of the
19
record.
20
(WHEREBY, EXHIBIT NUMBERS 4 and
21
5 WERE ADMITTED AS EVIDENCE.)
22
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: Thank you. And
23
I think we'll go ahead and continue, and we'll
24
ask questions from the panel.
25
MR. PIERCE: Thank you. Good afternoon.
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
23
1
I'm Willard Pierce. I am the general manager
2
of Evenson Explosives. Our home office is
3
located in Morris, Illinois.
4
Our company manufactures and sells
5
explosives. And we provide blasting services
6
in four states. Again, our home base is in
7
Illinois, and that's where the majority of our
8
business is, but -- and it is mostly in the
9
aggregate industry.
10
Previously I was a technical specialist
11
with the DNR. A couple -- well, more than a
12
year ago, I was with them and had Jim's job at
13
that time. But I helped establish and
14
implement the blasting regulatory program that
15
is now in place. Prior to that, I conducted
16
air blast ground vibration research with the
17
U.S. Bureau of Mines. And the U.S. Bureau of
18
Mines has done blasting research as it relates
19
to air blasting ground vibrations since the
20
1940s.
21
All of the regulatory programs across the
22
country that I have seen or heard of or have
23
been involved with -- because when I was with
24
the Bureau of Mines, I traveled all over the
25
country -- in one form or another uses the
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
24
1
Bureau of Mines recommendations for limits to
2
prevent damage to structures.
3
Given my background and given the job that
4
I have now where we are blasting, again, mostly
5
at aggregate industry, I have a technical
6
interest in this subject. And I also have a
7
practical interest in what we have to do, day
8
to day, to control the adverse effects from our
9
activity.
10
The interest that I have is that the
11
regulatory requirements are, one, consistent,
12
and they need to be consistent not maybe with
13
another regulation, but they have to be
14
consistent with what technology tells us. And
15
once we get that consistency, then the
16
requirements in the regulations and the limits
17
that are in the regulations can be implemented.
18
If they're not consistent, you have the problem
19
of one day doing one thing and another day
20
doing another.
21
Our blasters, based upon the regulations
22
here in Illinois, need two years of hands-on
23
experience. They need to take a training -- a
24
classroom training, classroom examination, and
25
then they're licensed blasters for the State.
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
25
1
For our company, they have to have another two
2
years at least of hands-on working with
3
experienced lead blasters before we turn them
4
loose as a blaster.
5
Part of that training, part of that
6
requirement as a blaster is someone using
7
explosives in this state or in any state,
8
because of the liabilities involved, go well
9
beyond what any regulations are, and we want to
10
control the adverse effects. We want to know
11
how do you design that blast to control air
12
blast.
13
My testimony or outline of my testimony
14
that I previously submitted -- I'm not going to
15
read it, but I want to hit the highlights of it
16
as I go through this.
17
When I look at first -- the first thing
18
that I mentioned is there's two different
19
limits of the C-weighted and the flat measuring
20
systems that you list in 901.109. And they are
21
two different numbers. If you look at the
22
Bureau of Mines' work, because the Bureau of
23
Mines say that 133 dB is equivalent to 105 dB.
24
So there we have a discrepancy between two
25
different numbers.
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
26
1
The other thing that I would suggest is
2
that once you have a number that is
3
appropriate, whatever number that is, whatever
4
you want to base that on -- and I don't know,
5
based on the science -- but whatever you want
6
to base that number on, that should be the
7
number. It shouldn't change with the time of
8
day. It shouldn't change with the number of
9
occurrences in a day.
10
And that brings me to the technical part
11
of air blast versus noise or sound. Even
12
though we can somewhat interchange those terms,
13
they're not. Air blast is a very specific type
14
of sound, if I can say it like that. And the
15
majority of the energy from air blast is very
16
low frequency. You don't even hear it. You
17
know, people that live next to a blast say,
18
"Well, I hear that blast every day." Well,
19
yes, but what you hear is the other effects of
20
blasting. You may hear some of the surface
21
delays. You may hear some of the venting, but
22
the majority of energy from blasting is that 2
23
to 3 hertz. You cannot hear that. You can
24
feel it on your chest if it's high enough, just
25
like a band going by with a base drum, but you
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
27
1
really don't hear it. The noise that you hear
2
is actually a very low level part of the air
3
blast. And as you look at air blast records or
4
seismograph records, you can pick this out, and
5
it's very easy to see.
6
The industry that -- the blasting industry
7
recognized the importance of consistency within
8
not only regulations, but basing regulations on
9
research and bringing the measurement
10
instruments into this standard.
11
And about 12 years ago, the International
12
Society of Explosive Engineers, the industry
13
professional society, brought all the
14
manufacturers of blasting seismographs to the
15
same table to look at the standards so that all
16
the machines are standardized because there
17
were no standards. The standard was,
18
regulatory standard, was plus or minus 3 dB.
19
That's plus or minus 50 percent. That's a
20
huge, wide range. That was a deficiency.
21
So the industry brought all the
22
manufacturers together at the same table, and
23
they came up with standards for monitoring air
24
blast from blasting. That's the only thing
25
they looked at with a blasting seismograph,
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
28
1
because it measures ground vibration, and it
2
has a microphone to measure air.
3
Within that standard, it was -- eventually
4
it was published about 1999, and that is the
5
standard that everybody refers to now. And
6
part of that standard was the monitoring
7
procedures.
8
And when I read through Part 910, where it
9
talks about that's -- I'm reading the
10
procedures for monitoring sound, not for
11
monitoring air blast. And that's the
12
deficiency that I see.
13
Because there's even parts in several
14
places in there, where you have a switch on a
15
monitoring instrument to turn it off for a
16
transient noise, for short-term transient
17
noises. By definition, air blast is a
18
short-term transient noise. It lasts about
19
three seconds. It's not the same frequency.
20
So it's not a steady state. It's a transient.
21
So by definition, the monitoring
22
procedures suggest even turn the machine off
23
during air blast. And I would -- I find that
24
confusing. Let me put it that way.
25
And what I would suggest is that if you're
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
29
1
going -- if the Board chooses through rule
2
making to monitor air blast from blasting, that
3
you use a blasting seismograph that is
4
specifically designed to monitor that type
5
of -- I'm going to say the word "noise," even
6
though that it's not noise. It's a change in
7
pressure is what it is.
8
But from a technical standpoint, and
9
looking at what the industry has been using for
10
the last 20 some years as a standard, based
11
upon what the Bureau of Mines has done for
12
decades in their research, Part 910 does not
13
address how to monitor properly air blast from
14
blasting.
15
With that said, if we have a method that's
16
not consistent or that doesn't measure it, why
17
should we even -- I know I'm not supposed to
18
ask questions, but why should we even be
19
monitoring if we're going to turn the machine
20
off, bearing that in part of the blast?
21
I guess the main thing I want to say is
22
that the blasting industry has a standard for
23
air blast, and it has a standard for
24
monitoring. And it's been in place in coal
25
mining for many years. And in the aggregate
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
30
1
industry, it's newer, but it's been in place
2
for many years. And it's based upon a science,
3
and the science says that 133 dB at a house, it
4
will protect that house. And if we're going to
5
have a standard, it needs to comply or be
6
consistent with what other regulatory schemes
7
have, unless we got a new body of research to
8
prove otherwise, and I don't know that we have
9
that.
10
I guess my five recommendations that I
11
have -- and I will repeat these -- is that both
12
the C-weighted and flat response microphones
13
reflect the same number, not two different
14
numbers.
15
I would suggest that the limit for air
16
blast, which a lot of times you can't even
17
hear, applies at a structure of some kind,
18
rather than to a person. And then with that,
19
you'll have to define what structures you want
20
that to apply at.
21
Let me say one thing about having it at a
22
specific location like a structure. The
23
importance of that is, if I read your proposed
24
regulation right, it's at the property line.
25
That may not be the best place to monitor air
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
31
1
blast because of the geometry from the source
2
to the receiver. Actually, sometimes closer to
3
the mine is not a good place to monitor air
4
blast. Sometimes it's further away. The
5
consistent thing is the structure is always
6
going to be there. So that's the place to
7
monitor.
8
The third thing I have is to limit
9
blasting from sunrise to sunset except for
10
emergency situations. 7:00 to 10:00, those
11
numbers, you know, based upon the time of year,
12
they may or may not be a good number. Who's
13
going to shoot at 10:00 o'clock when it's been
14
dark since 5:00 o'clock? And yet at the same
15
time, during the busy time of year, we may have
16
to blast before 7:00 o'clock.
17
And then following up from that, do not
18
lower the limit for the time of day, because,
19
again, if we're establishing a limit, it should
20
be one number regardless of the time of day or
21
number of events that day.
22
And most importantly, we have to require
23
monitoring procedures and equipment that are
24
appropriate to blasting.
25
Basically, my interest as a company that
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
32
1
does blasting, if I'm already spending an awful
2
lot of money monitoring from one agency, if I
3
have to do another one, I will, but that
4
may -- from what I read what's proposed right
5
now, I'm going to have to get a different type
6
of equipment, train in a different type of area
7
for monitoring and monitor at a different
8
location. Those are all costs.
9
With that, I'll answer any questions you
10
have.
11
I would like to say as a user of
12
explosives and as a blasting company, we want
13
to limit our blasting so we don't affect the
14
neighbors, but we want to have limits that are
15
consistent with a regulatory scheme and the
16
technology that we know exists to control air
17
blast from blasting.
18
Thank you very much.
19
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: Thank you.
20
Mr. Henriksen, before we go to questions,
21
is there any -- would you like to have your
22
summaries admitted as exhibits on the off
23
chance that there's something in the summary
24
that perhaps you didn't hit on in the testimony
25
here? We can do that as well if you would like
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
33
1
to.
2
MR. HENRIKSON: I just would rather stand
3
on what my testimony was because I made some
4
changes in the summary and expanded it. And
5
also I was corrected by my experts on some of
6
this, on the regulatory change that I was
7
interested in making. So --
8
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: All right.
9
We'll just stand with your oral testimony.
10
What about with Mr. Pierce (sic)?
11
MR. HAFLIGER: I'd like our general
12
summary left as is, which is what you have,
13
what we've submitted to you. I feel that
14
there's probably information, and there's
15
program specific information that could be
16
utilized for your reference at some point.
17
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: All right. We
18
will admit the IDNR summary; is that correct?
19
We'll admit that as Exhibit Number 6.
20
(WHEREBY, EXHIBIT NUMBER 6 WAS
21
ADMITTED AS EVIDENCE.)
22
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: And, Mr. Pierce,
23
what about you?
24
MR. PIERCE: I'd like both, the summary
25
and my oral testimony.
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
34
1
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: Then we'll admit
2
Mr. Pierce's summary as Exhibit Number 7.
3
(WHEREBY, EXHIBIT NUMBER 7 WAS
4
ADMITTED AS EVIDENCE.)
5
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: Yes. DNR has
6
the attachment. That is, we've already
7
admitted that as Exhibit 4 and 5. Great.
8
Thank you.
9
And I think we're ready for questions.
10 BY BOARD MEMBER RAO:
11
Q Mr. Henriksen, I had a few questions based
12 on your summary of your testimony that you
13 pre-filed. Apparently, you changed some of the
14 things. And just to clarify, in your pre-filed
15 summary, you suggested some changes to Section
16 901.107 (h), Subsection (h). In your earlier, you
17 know, pre-filed summary, you had asked us to make
18 sure that mining activities should be gone by
19 901.109. Now you are recommending that we just
20 leave the regulation of mining industry to the DNR,
21 not 901.109. Is that --
22
A (By Mr. Henrikson) As I testified when I
23 turned my summary in, as I've gone over it, I
24 realized that I hadn't struck through some of the
25 language that I wanted to strike through to indicate
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
35
1 that it should be excised. So during my oral
2 testimony, which I'll rest on, I had that 901, this
3 Subsection (h), this exemption to state Part 901 --
4
Q The whole part?
5
A -- shall not apply to impulsive sound,
6 impulsive sound produced by explosive blasting
7 activity conducted on a Class C land use as
8 specified by -- used as specified by LBCS Code 8300,
9 8500.
10
Now, that's not to say that the IEPA
11 shouldn't regulate sounds generated from, you know,
12 crushing equipment, backup alarms on equipment.
13 There are -- there is sound that -- there are steady
14 state noises that are a function of a mining
15 operation that, you know, need to be regulated. We
16 understand that. And I may misuse a word or two.
17 I'm not a technical person. There are constant
18 noises, you know, like equipment operator, sound of
19 processing equipment operating.
20
And the IEPA has the authority to
21 regulate under Section 24, but we're suggesting is
22 that under Section 25, your rule-making powers, you
23 should defer to IDNR to regulate whatever noise is
24 produced by -- the impulsive sound produced by
25 explosive blasting, all right?
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
36
1
And if we heard -- what Mr. Willard
2 was saying and what Jim was saying, we're talking
3 about a sound that lasts three seconds. Now, just
4 to put that in context; people have the idea that
5 you're constantly blasting at quarries, and we're
6 talking about stone quarries versus sand gravel
7 pits. Sand gravel pits, there's no blasting because
8 of the nature of the material. You scoop it up.
9 Stone quarries, you have to actually blast for
10 materials.
11
It's rare that a company blasts more
12 than one time a day. And that blast would
13 last -- the part you could hear -- and, again, I
14 have an expert here, Mr. Pierce and Mr. Hafliger,
15 both, if I misused words, they'll be quick to
16 correct me. But what you can hear is for three
17 seconds, all right? That's what we're talking
18 about. As opposed to backup alarms that might be
19 going on 8, 10, 12 hours a day if the conditions are
20 good, all right? So that's a busy operation that's
21 doing production shots every day. That's what --
22 BY BOARD MEMBER JOHNSON:
23
Q If the rule was amended to changed to
24 reflect that request that -- or that suggestion that
25 we exempt that particular activity from the noise
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
37
1 rules, then all the other suggestions are irrelevant
2 at that time? We need to ask you questions about
3 them, right?
4
A That's correct. That's correct.
5
Q That's what you think the most appropriate
6 thing for us to do is, is to list those particular
7 activities as exempt from the rule?
8
A Yes, just the impulsive -- the impulsive
9 sound produced by explosive blasting activities.
10 That three seconds a day, to have DNR regulate, as
11 they've been doing very successfully over a number
12 of years. The rest of the noise that comes from our
13 business and quarries, you know, DNR is going
14 to -- EPA is going to regulate it as noise under
15 Section 24. And we tried monitoring devices, which
16 produce nuisance problems out there. That's a whole
17 different concept and spectrum of activities than
18 what these -- than what we're talking about.
19
Q Is it common that the day begins -- if the
20 sun rises at 5:30, is it common then at 5:35, that's
21 when that -- because you're -- some testimony was
22 with respect to changing -- if we get past that,
23 your first suggestion to change the hours, the
24 regulatory hours, and include making them daylight
25 to sunrise to sunset, rather than the specific hours
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
38
1 we've listed here, is it often then that the day
2 begins with the blast and the rest of the day's
3 activity?
4
MR. HENRIKSON: I'll defer to Mr. --
5
MR. PIERCE: Very commonly what happens
6
is, when we do a service, a contractual service
7
for a quarry, we'll show up right about
8
daybreak or sunrise. We'll load the shot, and
9
maybe 4 or 5 hours later, the first shot will
10
go off or the shot will go off. There are
11
times, however, based upon production needs or
12
especially this time of year when
13
everybody's -- you know, the demands are there
14
and busy, we'll get there earlier, load the
15
shot. And we'll shoot by 7:00 o'clock, yes,
16
but that is rare. That is not -- we're not
17
sitting there waiting for the sun to come up,
18
no.
19
Another situation where that may come into
20
play -- and this is even more rare -- is if
21
whatever reason we had to defer a shot from the
22
day before; equipment breakdown, a lightning
23
storm came through. Whatever the reason is,
24
the shot, we didn't shoot. So it's sitting
25
there now. Somebody is going to be guarding it
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
39
1
overnight. The sooner we can shoot that, the
2
better.
3 BY BOARD MEMBER JOHNSON:
4
Q Right.
5
A (By Mr. Pierce) Just because it's been a
6 long night, maybe sitting. Let's get it off. But
7 that is a very rare -- now, it's not, "It's 5:30.
8 Let's pull the trigger." It's typically mid morning
9 is the first blasting activity.
10
BOARD MEMBER RAO: Just following up on
11
Mr. Thomas' (sic) question.
12 BY BOARD MEMBER RAO:
13
Q If we go the other route of not exempting,
14 and, say, try to make these rules consistent with
15 the IDNR rules, would it be better if we
16 cross-referenced to IDNR regulations in our rules to
17 save any constant monitoring procedure? Say these
18 are the requirements? The requirements are
19 specified in, you know, the rules that's been
20 submitted by IDNR? You know, a specific reference
21 in our rules? That way there is no confusion what
22 procedures you follow, how you monitor or what
23 equipment you use.
24
A (By Mr. Henriksen) If you're addressing
25 that to me, I'm saying if you all elect to regulate
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
40
1 impulsive sound produced by explosive blasting at
2 these mines, you should incorporate them by
3 reference. You should directly refer to them every
4 bit of what they require, so that something is not
5 left out or things aren't added to it that are
6 improper.
7
But the key thing is, that this
8 activity be monitored for compliance or lack of
9 compliance the same way IDNR does it, because
10 this -- and, again, this was not a haphazard
11 process.
12
I mean, our industry -- just to back
13 up. I work for DNR. I work for mines and minerals.
14 I helped put together the blasting program as an
15 attorney for mines. And I had to work through all
16 of this to make sure that we put together a program
17 that comported with what industry nationwide says
18 are best practices. So if you're going to corporate
19 those rules, corporate them all. And most
20 importantly, or as important as any of this stuff,
21 be sure you incorporate how this stuff is measured.
22 Be sure that it's required that anybody who claims
23 that we have -- we violated the Board's rules from
24 blasting has -- prove that up by using a seismograph
25 used precisely the way that Jim Hafliger or Willard
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
41
1 Pierce would, would use it precisely. It's
2 critical.
3 BY HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:
4
Q I am familiar with IDNR's program. What
5 are the consequences for a producer if they fail to
6 meet the --
7
A (By Mr. Hafliger) The punitive damage is
8 that we consider culpability and a whole host of
9 other things -- responsibility and the scope and the
10 nature of violation and the magnitude of violation.
11 It can go up to suspension or revocation of their
12 actual blasting operations with what they do out
13 there.
14
Q And how do you enforce that? Is that
15 through circuit court or the attorney general's
16 office? Is that a matter of your own rules?
17
A That's through our rule making and hearing
18 process, okay?
19
And if I can, while I'm adding this
20 in, regarding to Mr. Johnson's question earlier
21 about blasting during daylight; I think it should be
22 added and I probably should have mentioned that
23 earlier, but it's part of our inspection process
24 that we make to aggregate and surface coal
25 operations, they have obligatory records that they
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
42
1 have to keep for us that incorporate every minor
2 detail about every element of the blast. There's 17
3 different areas or criterion that they have to
4 include on the blasting records, including the time
5 of day of the blast. In some cases, in coal and
6 aggregate industry, there's some minor variation,
7 but up to and including wind direction, temperature,
8 time of day, person involved with the blast, the
9 name and the certificate or license number of the
10 person doing the blast. The pounds of explosive per
11 eight millisecond delay. When we talk about these
12 small duration blasts, it's actually how many pounds
13 are going off at this time.
14
Within the scope of all this, that's
15 how we determine whether or not, A, as an
16 operator -- when I talk about us monitoring with our
17 35 seismographs, the majority of the operators also
18 have their own. And if they meet certain criteria
19 within the scope of our regulations in addition to
20 being monitored by us, they're also monitored by
21 them.
22
So when I said earlier that we have
23 35 seismographs, the 172 operations, that doesn't
24 mean that they're not being monitored. The majority
25 of the operations out there, out of the 172, are
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
43
1 monitoring their selves. Their blasting records
2 have to be -- their seismograph records for our
3 analysis, as explosive experts, have to be available
4 to us at the time of our inspections, which are very
5 regular.
6
So within the scope of what we're
7 seeing, if you have any questions about how do you
8 know if they're blasting at daylight or not, part of
9 their regular statutorily required records include
10 all that information for our reference, what we take
11 into consideration for any punitive or enforcement
12 action that we're taking as the operation or the
13 specific blaster in charge or both.
14
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: Mr. Pierce?
15
MR. PIERCE: Could I also address your
16
question about the violation and what's
17
involved?
18
There is a formula, and it's based on
19
different criteria of what dollar value comes
20
to the company, and up to and including on that
21
is a certain abatement action, what they have
22
to do to correct that action. But it could go
23
all the way up to a cessation of the operation,
24
and specifically the blasting operation.
25
In addition to that, Illinois DNR has a
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
44
1
notice of infraction to the individual. So the
2
mining company may get the violation and a
3
dollar value assessed to it. The actual
4
blaster, who may be one of my employees, could
5
lose his blasting license or could get
6
suspended or could have to take more training,
7
or whatever the abatement action is for that
8
individual.
9
So the State holds both the company and
10
the individual responsible. And it's a very
11
serious matter. And I've been involved on both
12
sides of this discussion now. And I think all
13
parties take it very seriously because
14
it's -- you know, we hold a person responsible,
15
which is very meaningful, very meaningful.
16 BY BOARD MEMBER RAO:
17
Q Does your program also have any mechanism
18 for nearby residents to come and complain to you?
19
A (By Mr. Hafliger) We have implemented a
20 program over the past 10 years what we consider also
21 to be very comprehensive where we've established an
22 800 number for the ease of the people. We encourage
23 them to call us.
24
What we find is the blasting is
25 inherently specialized in nature. Much of the
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
45
1 general public's perception from blasting comes from
2 Hollywood. And I also have the opportunity to teach
3 the classes for these blasters and explosive users
4 and law enforcement and anybody that used any kind
5 of commercial explosives.
6
And quite realistically, an effective
7 blasting at a quarry coal mine is very undramatic in
8 nature. What we might see on Hollywood, Hollywood's
9 portrayal of explosive use are giant fireballs, just
10 to make it a little more interesting and dynamic as
11 part of that.
12
But the practicality of explosive use
13 in the aggregate and coal industry, that anything
14 that you see, feel or hear as a result of the blast
15 is inefficient because it's lost energy. And the
16 economics dictate that you're utilizing every bit of
17 energy possible of your explosive. The fireballs,
18 the flashes of light and everything that you see on
19 television, which are created by adding special
20 effects, pyrotechnics, to make it more interesting
21 for the folks watching at home are not an accurate
22 portrayal by any means of the surface aggregate and
23 coal blasting.
24
Does that address your --
25
BOARD MEMBER RAO: Yeah.
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
46
1 BY BOARD MEMBER GIRARD:
2
Q Jim, how many complaints do you get in a
3 typical year?
4
A (By Mr. Hafliger) Probably this year, we
5 probably have to date, we've had less than a
6 hundred. At the beginning of our program, until the
7 word got out and they knew who to talk to, that they
8 knew not necessarily a liaison, but they had a go-to
9 person. We probably started out with initial
10 implementation of our program in the aggregate
11 industry in the beginning '90s where it was several
12 hundred a year.
13
We've got kind of an informal number
14 that we use, which is an approximation, but we found
15 since recordkeeping within our program, that we find
16 that about 90 percent of the citizens' complaints
17 are addressed simply by them talking to a
18 representative of our staff who subsequently
19 explains the nature of blasting and what goes along
20 with it.
21
We find about another 5 percent, it
22 takes one of our staff members going out to their
23 residence, where they have the concerns, and meeting
24 with them, looking at some specifics, the structure
25 in relationship -- the geographical location of the
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
47
1 structure in regards to mining operation.
2
And then we find about there's
3 another 3 percent that probably takes us installing
4 a seismograph there to put their mind at ease that
5 they can see that what we've described to them and
6 what our regulatory parameters are. We give them
7 the numbers. We explain the science to them the
8 best we can, and explain to them the numbers that
9 we're seeing. Whether there is or is not an issue
10 of noncompliance or the potential for structure
11 damage, or even in some cases, personal injury at
12 the nearest protected structure.
13
That leaves 2 percent unaccounted
14 for. And our best estimate is that there's 2
15 percent regardless of what we're going to do. We're
16 not going to appease their concerns.
17
But, yes, we do address that. That's
18 what we see as far as complaints. And those numbers
19 are down dramatically. We have interaction to get
20 out there, and implement and utilize our outreach
21 programs that we have.
22
Q Are those complaints more concerned with
23 noise or ground vibration or other effects?
24
A Just in general, a lot of times it's a
25 nuisance of the whole -- maybe the whole mining
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
48
1 operation in general.
2
Maybe they have concerns, as
3 Mr. Henriksen stated earlier, where they talk about
4 the blasting. They talk about the backup alarms or
5 the dust or whatever. And, specifically, it's
6 probably the ground vibration.
7
If they're calling, describing to us
8 in laymen's terms that what they tell us is they're
9 shaking the ground out here, and they are giving us
10 things to have concern about, and that's where
11 we -- if we haven't already been out there in their
12 neighborhood somewhere, that's where we get in the
13 system and meet with people in a group, citizens
14 groups and a whole host of different venues, that we
15 do to try to address this not just for the sake
16 of -- you know, I don't want to be perceived as
17 specifically industry friendly, but it's, you know,
18 our obligation is to protect the general public from
19 property damage, and more specifically, personal
20 injury out there at the location. That's -- really
21 we've been delegated as regulators.
22 BY BOARD MEMBER JOHNSON:
23
Q Just so I've got it right, and I think
24 it's in your pre-filed testimony, but the wording
25 that you would suggest is that highly impulsive
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
49
1 sound from blasting operations at mines? That's
2 what -- is that right?
3
A (By Mr. Henrikson) Yeah. I used the
4 Class C land use as specified by LBCS, Codes 8300
5 and 8500. I think you guys are upgrading your
6 classification system. So I tracked the numbers
7 that I think refer to surface coal mining and
8 quarrying.
9
Q And you said specifically that we don't
10 want you to exempt mining operations from noise
11 pollution cases based upon trucks coming in and out
12 of the quarry or grinding of the gravel. Maybe you
13 want us to, but you're saying that that's not
14 what -- that's not what you're suggesting in your
15 pre-filed testimony.
16
A What I'm saying is that -- that's correct.
17 That's correct. I think -- I mean, IEPA, Pollution
18 Control Board has certain obligations set out by the
19 Illinois General Assembly in Section 24. We
20 understand that. And our operations try moderately
21 to be good neighbors to keep the noise down.
22
What we're looking for, what we're
23 suggesting is that, that the 901.109, relating to
24 blasting activities, exempt us out. Now, there are
25 blasting other than coal mines. Aggregate mines and
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
50
1 maybe construction. Or a farmer blowing up a tree
2 stump. Whatever. Regulate away. I mean, nobody
3 regulates -- you know, there's certain areas that
4 they've all been blasting that aren't, I believe,
5 regulated by the state. So regulate away.
6
But we're suggesting that your rules
7 be amended to -- an exemption to make it clear that
8 the Part 901 standards don't apply to impulsive
9 sound produced by explosive blasting activities
10 conducted at a Class C land used as specified by
11 LBCS Codes 8300 and 8500, period.
12 BY BOARD MEMBER GIRARD:
13
Q John, have you considered approaching the
14 General Assembly and getting a specific statutory
15 exemption written into the Environmental Protection
16 Act?
17
A (By Mr. Henrikson) No. And by that I
18 mean, I believe that you have enough flexibility in
19 your regulatory scheme if there's good reason, good
20 cause shown to do that. I mean, these rules -- I've
21 read them again. But there's different standards
22 set for different -- there are wholesale exemptions
23 for certain economic activities. Farm equipment. I
24 mean, you know, and I understand why. But being in
25 a mineral extraction industry, I understand why we
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
51
1 have to do things farmers don't do.
2
With that being said, I think it's
3 important -- I'm not -- we're not saying and have
4 never said that our blasting activities shouldn't be
5 regulated. We're not saying that. We're saying
6 that our blasting activities already are heavily
7 regulated by the State of Illinois.
8
Those blasting -- and that regulatory
9 program has worked very well. We're getting less
10 complaints of our operations because of the work
11 they're doing. The professionalism of our blasters,
12 that function of the program Willard set up and Jim
13 administers, the professionalism makes our --
14 frankly, our blasters that come out of our state the
15 best in this nation. That's improved the quality of
16 work that we do. That's improved the quality of
17 blasting and production that we do. That's also
18 reduced the number of violations.
19
When this program first was
20 implemented, I was then working for the association.
21 I can assure you there were a number of violations
22 that the State wrote to my members, and by and
23 large, they were good violations. And it took some
24 training. It took some -- we went through some
25 teething problems, some education of our folks to
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
52
1 figure out what to do, how to figure out the
2 paperwork, how to do the things right.
3
And now we have an excellent track
4 record with the State. We don't get many violations
5 from DNR because our folks are doing the right
6 thing. And it's no coincidence that the complaints
7 that we have to contend with has, in our industry,
8 go down every year. And we're frankly proud of that
9 record. Because the complaint of the system
10 means -- a complaint of the system means that a shot
11 hasn't been set up right, and we're wasting money.
12 Because if a shot is not efficient, that energy, as
13 these gentlemen have said, has escaped out of the
14 hole, and that energy has been used to push the
15 rock. That's money. That's a lot of cost.
16
MR. PIERCE: If I can add to that.
17
Everything Mr. Henriksen just said is in
18
addition to the fact that there is more
19
monitoring being done today than there's ever
20
been done yesterday. Just because the cost of
21
technology has gone down, just like any other
22
computer system. And we are monitoring -- the
23
industry is monitoring more today than they
24
ever have.
25
There are shots that we, as a company, put
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
53
1
off that may have five monitors set up. Just
2
because if you have a blast here and you have
3
houses on all four sides, we want to know, not
4
just when we get a violation. We want to know
5
that we're keeping our numbers down. And
6
because you can't hear it, you don't have a
7
feel for it. You have to monitor. So the
8
monitoring is being done. It's being done.
9 BY BOARD MEMBER RAO:
10
Q Mr. Pierce, you recommended that the
11 monitoring procedures that have been proposed under
12 910 doesn't address explosive blasting the way it's
13 being proposed right now, and you said you follow
14 certain procedures under DNR's regulations. Are
15 those, you know, the monitoring procedures and the
16 equipment used for, you know, to monitor blasting,
17 does that apply only to blasting at mine sites? Or
18 it may be generally applicable to any other
19 explosive blasting?
20
A (By Mr. Pierce) It would apply to any
21 type of blasting because the air blast or the energy
22 that you get from the atmosphere from any type of
23 blasting is the same. It's going to be low
24 frequency because air moves very slowly. It's going
25 to be low frequency. So those type of instruments
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
54
1 would apply to all types of blasting, yes.
2
Q So even if the Board decides to, you know,
3 defer to DNR for, you know, blasting for mining
4 industry, it would make sense to amend our rules to
5 cover other, you know, non-exempted blasting
6 appropriate monitoring procedures?
7
A I would agree with you. And, again, my
8 experience and expertise is limited in sound, but
9 when I read through 910, I'm very familiar with
10 that's exactly what you're monitoring there is
11 sound.
12
And blasting, even construction
13 blasting that has the explosives closer to the
14 surface so there's more noise out of it, a higher
15 level, it's still low frequency. It doesn't fit.
16 And it's still transient. It's still that couple of
17 seconds.
18 BY BOARD MEMBER JOHNSON:
19
Q Would it violate the rules as written
20 then? I mean, if you're saying it's not sound, but
21 it's pressure? Would a shot that you guys take on a
22 typical aggregate mine violate the rules the way
23 they're written currently?
24
A (By Mr. Pierce) Potentially, yes, but
25 unnecessarily.
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
55
1
And let me give you a couple examples
2 with some numbers. I wish I had a chalkboard. I
3 love to draw pictures.
4
Anyway, for instance, if a lot of
5 mines are blasting near the perimeter of their
6 property -- I'm going to say, let's say, within
7 200 feet of their property line, where then you may
8 have a street. And, for instance, up in Chicago, we
9 may have an interstate, which is another hundred
10 feet or more to get across that. And then you may
11 have a property or a yard or a baseball field. And
12 so actually the structure where people are going to
13 be hanging out is literally a thousand feet away or
14 seven hundred feet away.
15
So with the monitoring up to the
16 property line at a hundred feet versus really where
17 we need to be monitoring, a thousand feet away, this
18 is a huge difference in what you're getting off of
19 this.
20
And then the geometry of a blast. If
21 you're down in this hole, you know, down in the hole
22 down here, and you're monitoring right on the edge
23 here, actually, there's a zone in there where you're
24 not going to get anything. And from noise or
25 pressure, it's going to come over that. So if
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
56
1 you're required to monitor here, the better place
2 may be back here, or vice versa. I mean, it goes
3 both ways.
4
But my point when I brought up the
5 location of the monitoring, especially that the
6 property line versus something that you're
7 protecting, this is constant. This is always going
8 to be here.
9
So no matter what the effect is
10 between the source and the receiver, this is going
11 to remain constant. And it's something you can
12 design for. As a blaster, if I know that I'm
13 shooting to this, to protect this, I can design for
14 that. I can redirect my blast in a different
15 direction through delays that we use. But if I know
16 that today somebody is going to be monitoring here,
17 it's going to change everything. You know, change
18 the way I shoot that blast. And so it could go
19 either way, I guess, is what is my answer to your
20 question.
21 BY BOARD MEMBER RAO:
22
Q What you said brings up another question I
23 had about, you know, the complaints, going from the
24 property line to a structure, you know, the
25 protected structure as Mr. Henriksen said in his
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
57
1 pre-filed testimony.
2
So when you start mining activities
3 if -- you know, I don't know how you do it. Maybe
4 you try to protect the structure which is nearest to
5 your blasting operation. You know, if that's the
6 case, you know, some time in the future, if somebody
7 decides to put some other structure closer, then
8 will you monitor to protect the --
9
A (By Mr. Pierce) The DNR regulations
10 require that, and that does happen. And it's a
11 constant thing of when, okay, now, they're building
12 this building. When is it protected? Is it the day
13 they do the foundation? Well, the foundation,
14 you're not really protecting it. It's when they get
15 the super structure on it.
16
But, yes, we encounter that
17 especially in the Chicago area on a daily basis of
18 moving our instrument from site to site. Not only
19 because the structure may -- a new structure may
20 come in, but depending on where we are in the
21 quarry. We may have to set up a different
22 instrument or a different location today than what
23 we did yesterday. That's very common.
24
Q Okay. I had one more question about this
25 monitoring equipment.
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
58
1
I think Mr. Henriksen earlier
2 testified that if at all the Board decides to
3 regulate your industry, that we should make sure we
4 write in the rules that the monitoring equipment,
5 you know, should be used according to the
6 manufacturer's specifications. Something to that
7 effect. And my question is, are there any, you
8 know, standards for blasting seismograph, just like
9 ANSI has a number of standards for monitoring sound,
10 and you know, instrumentation? Do you have
11 similar --
12
A The answer is absolutely "yes." And,
13 again, I refer to that, the International Society of
14 Explosive Engineers, which is a professional body of
15 blasters from all the manufacturers. I think to
16 date, or today, there's about eight manufacturers of
17 blasting seismographs.
18
They all sat at that table, and they
19 all came up with a standard, not only for their
20 instruments, but for maintaining the instruments,
21 for installing the instruments for analyzing the
22 data. And that was published, and it's in the
23 society's handbook of blasting. It's a whole
24 chapter in there on just seismograph and blasting
25 monitoring. And that is the industry standard right
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
59
1 now. And every state recognizes that.
2
One -- and if I could just talk about
3 that for a minute, because in 910, one of the
4 requirements is to have the microphone on 5-foot
5 stands, which is the way blasting seismographs were
6 20 years ago, because they were using a different
7 microphone at that time. Now, with the type of
8 microphones they're using, they literally can have
9 them at ground level because we're measuring the
10 pressure. Pressure doesn't change, and it doesn't
11 have the reflective surface. I think you're talking
12 25 feet? They say 5 feet. So it's a totally
13 different standard because it's a different thing
14 that we're monitoring with a different type of
15 microphone.
16
Another thing that's in 910 is not to
17 monitor if the wind is over 12 miles an hour. As a
18 blaster, if the wind is coming towards you, I have
19 to account for that if I have to monitor over there.
20 I have to take that into account. I have to take
21 into account and control more of what overpressure
22 I'm going to cause. So in one sense, the blasting
23 requirements, the blasting seismograph requirements
24 or standards are a little bit stricter, but they're
25 more appropriate.
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
60
1
Q Okay. I'm sure we'll be able to find a
2 copy of this standard on the Web site or some place,
3 but would it be possible for you to provide the
4 correct citation to the standard sometime in the
5 comments? Or if you have it right now.
6
A I can give it to you right now. It is
7 isee.org, and they will have it all on their Web
8 site as the blaster's handbook. It's their
9 handbook.
10
BOARD MEMBER RAO: Thank you very much.
11
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: Anything else?
12
All right. Are there any questions from anyone
13
else? Okay.
14
MR. HENRIKSON: How long will the record
15
be kept open?
16
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: That's where I'm
17
going now.
18
First of all, I want to thank all three of
19
you for your testimony and the information
20
you've given us today. It was very helpful at
21
the last hearing. It's even been more helpful
22
at this hearing. We appreciate it.
23
We tried very hard to update our regs, and
24
it sounds like we're a little behind maybe on
25
blasting. IDNR, they've apparently updated
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
61
1
their regs much before we did. And we thank
2
you very much for the information.
3
The Board's procedural rules say that a
4
hearing record shall be held open at least 14
5
days after receipt of the transcript. Our
6
transcripts are generally available within like
7
10 days, 10 working days, I think it is, for a
8
regular transcript. So I'm just going to go
9
ahead and pick September 30th, which should
10
give us plenty of time as a date to close the
11
record in this proceeding.
12
I will do also a written hearing officer
13
order of that effect. But at this time, we
14
will ask that all comments be submitted by
15
September 30th.
16
Dr. Girard, do you have anything else?
17
BOARD MEMBER GIRARD: Just to say thank
18
you for your time. You've been very helpful.
19
And we look forward to getting the transcript
20
and seeing again all the good information we've
21
got in the record. And we'll come up with the
22
best rule we can.
23
MR. HENRIKSON: Thank you.
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: And we thank you
24
very much. And with that, I think we're
adjourned. Thank you, gentlemen.
25
[END OF HEARING.]
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190
62
1
NOTARIAL CERTIFICATE
2
I, ANN MARIE HOLLO, a Certified Shorthand Reporter
3 for the State of Illinois, CSR# 084-003476, and a duly
commissioned Notary Public within and for the State of
4 Illinois, do hereby certify that the preceding matter came
before me at the offices of the Illinois Environmental
5 Protection Agency, Illinois Pollution Control Board Hearing
Room, 1021 North Grand Avenue, Springfield, Illinois;
6
That the said proceeding was reduced to writing, and
7 this transcript is a true and correct record of the
proceeding.
8
9
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand
and seal on September 9, 2005.
10
My commission expires April 5, 2006.
11
12
________________________
Notary Public
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Keefe Reporting Company
(618) 244-0190