RECEIVED
No. FCB 04-186
815-935-0545 FAX 708-636-3839
MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS
815-935-0545 FAX 708-636-3839
MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS
815-935-0545 FAX 708-636-3839
MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS
MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

WOLTHOFF4O5.DOC
WOLTHOFF4O5.DOC
WOLTHOFF4O5.DOC
WOLTHOFF4O5.DOC
DBERTRAND4O5.DOC
DBERTRAND4O5.DOC

RECEIVED

PEDERSE &JJO

CLERK’S OFFICE

—

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APR 192005

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STATEOFILLINOIS

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Pollution Control Board

April 19, 2005

Donald J. Moran

Attorney at Law

312261 2149

Fax

312261 1149

dmoran@pedersenhoupt.com

VIA

HAND

DELIVERY

Ms. Dorothy Guim, Clerk

Illinois Pollution Control Board

100 West Randolph St., Suite 11-500

Chicago, Illinois 60601

Re:

Waste Management ofIllinois, Inc. v. County Board ofKankakee County, Illinois

No. FCB 04-186

Dear Ms.

Gunn:

Enclosedplease find copies ofthe evidence depositions ofboard members, Duane Bertrand and

William Olthoff for filing in the above-referenced case.

Very truly yours,

Donald J. Moran

Ykc~Jv~)k~

DJMlbtk

410794v

1

Suite 3100 I 161 North Clark Street I Chicago, IL 60601-3242 I pedersenhoupt.com I 312 641 6888

Fax312 641 6895

A Profeonioral Corporation

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLThOFF - 4-14-05

RCLERK’S

E CEOFFICE

~VE

APR 192005

BEFORE THE ILLINOIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD...

Pollution

bTATE 

OFControlILLINOISBoard

WASTE MANAGEMENT OF ILLINOIS,

INC.

Petitioner,

vs.

)

No. PCB 04-186

COUNTY BOARD OF KANKAKEE

COUNTY, ILLINOIS

Respondent.

The evidence deposition of WILLIAM H. OLTHOFF,

taken in the above-entitled matter on the 14th day of

April, A.D., 2005, at the hour of 11:05 a.m., at 189 East

Court Street, 1st Floor Conference Room, Kankakee,

Illinois, pursuant to the provisions of the Code of Civil

Procedure of the State of Illinois and the Rules of the

Supreme Court and the Illinois Pollution Control Board,

before MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, a notary public and court

reporter certified by the State of Illinois (Certificate

No. 84-667)

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, C.S.R.

Certified Shorthand Reporters

One Dearborn Square

Suite 510

Kankakee, Illinois 60901

815-935-0545

Fax

708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLThOFF — 4-14-05

APPEARANCES:

THE LAW FIRM

OF:

PEDERSON & HOUPT, by

MR. DONALD J. MORAN

161 North Clark Street

Suite 3100

Chicago, Illinois 60601-3224

Appeared on behalf of the Petitioner;

THE

LAW

FIRM OF:

HINSHAW & CULBERTSON, LLP, by

MR.

RICHARD S. 

PORTER

100

Park Avenue

Rockford, Illinois 61105-1389

Appeared on behalf of the Respondent;

MR. EDWARD D. SMITH, STATE’S ATTORNEY

KANKAKEE 

COUNTY, by

MS. BRENDA L. GORSKI

ASSISTANT STATE’S ATTORNEY, 

KANKAKEE COUNTY

189 East Court Street

Kankakee, Illinois 60901

Appeared for Kankakee County.

INDEX

Examination By:                    

Page

Direct Examination by Mr. Moran          

3

Cross Examination by Mr. Porter          

29

ReDirect Examination by Mr. Moran         

31

MARILYN N MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLThOFF — 4-14-05

1

(WITNESS SWORN)

2

WILLIAM H. OLTHOFF,

3

called as a witness by the Petitioner

4  herein, having been first duly sworn on oath, was

examined and testified as follows:

6

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. MORAN:

Could you tell us your full name and spell

9   your last name for the court reporter?

10

A:

William H. Olthoff. O-L-T-H-O-F-F.

11

What is your address, Mr. Olthoff?

12

A:

4503 East 3000 North Road, Bourbonnais,

13   Illinois, 60914.

14

How long have you lived there?

Thirty-five years.

16

What is your occupation?

17

A:

I am a farmer.

18

Are you a Member of the Kankakee County

19   Board?

20

A:

Yes.

21

For how long have you been on the Kankakee

County Board?

23

A:

Since the fall 

-—

since December of 2002.

24

You were elected then?

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLThOFF — 4-14-05

1

A:

Yes.

2

Are you familiar with a Siting Application

3    that was filed by Waste Management of Illinois, Inc. to

4  expand the existing Kankakee landfill on August 16th of

2002?

No.

7

Okay. Were you aware that there was an

8   Application at some point filed by Waste Management of

9   Illinois, Inc. to expand the existing Kankakee landfill?

10

A:

Yes.

11

I will refer to the Application that was

12   filed on August 16th of 2002 as the 2002 Application or

13   the First Applicatioll.

14

Did you at some point become aware of the

First Application?

What do you mean aware?

17

Well, were you aware it

had been filed and

18

that there were steps taken by the County Board to vote

on that First Application?

20

A:

After I became a Member of the County

21   Board I became aware of those issues, yes.

22

You became a Member of the County Board in

December of 2002?

Yes.

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLThOFF — 4-14-05

1

Did the County Board vote on the 2002

2  Application on January 31st of 2003?

3

A:

I am not aware of the date.

Did you vote 

A:

No.

6

Q:

(continuing) on that First Application

7   in January of 2003?

MR. PORTER:

Wait until he is done asking

the

question.

10

THE WITNESS: A: No.

11

MR. MORAN: Q: What was your reason why

12   you didn’t vote?

13

A:

I was out of town.

14

Q:

So you missed that Board Meeting?

15

A:

Uh huh.

16

Q:

You need to say yes or no.

17

A:

Yes.

18

Q:

Prior to the County Board vote on the

19   First Application, the one that occurred in January of

20   2003, had you received any phone calls from anyone

21   regarding the proposed expansion?

22

A:

No.

23

Q:

Prior to that vote on January 3l~ of 2003

24   which you did not attend, did you receive any letters or

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLThOFF — 4-14-05

any written materials from any persons regarding the

2   proposed expansion?

3

A:

I don’t remember.

4

Q:

Are you aware that a Second Application

was filed on September ~ of 2003?

6

A:

Yes.

7

Q:

I will refer to that as the 2003

8   Application or the Second Application.

A:

(Nodding head)

10

Q:

Were the public hearings on the Second

Ii    Application conducted in January of 2004?

12

A:

I believe so.

13

Q:

Did you attend any of the hearings?

14

A:

Yes.

15

Q:

These were the hearings at the Quality

16

Inn?

17

A:

Yes.

18

Q:

How many of those sessions did you attend?

19

A:

I’m not certain. I 

--~

I would say four.

20

Q:

Are you aware that the Kankakee County

21   Regional Planning Commission conducted those hearings?

22

A:

Yes.

23

Q:

And

that the Regional Planning Commission.

24  prepared a written report with recommendations. concerning

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLThOFF — 4-14-05

the Application?

2

A:

Yes.

3

Q:

And that that written report had

4   recommended approval of the Second Siting Application

with various conditions?

6

A:

Yes.

7

Q:

Did you vote on the Second Application?

8

A:

Yes.

9

Q:

That vote occurred on March l7~of 2004?

10

A:

I believe so.

11

How did you vote on the Second

12   Application?

13

A:

I voted nay on three of the criterion.

14

Q:

Were those criterion 1, 3 and 6?

15

A:

I believe so.

16

Q:

Prior to your vote on March l’7~of 2004

17   did you receive any phone calls from any persons

18   regarding the proposed expansion?

19

A:

No.

20

Q:

Prior to your vote on March 17, 2004 did

21   you receive any letters or written materials regarding

22   the proposed expansion?

23

A:

Yes.

24

Q:

Where did you receive these letters?

MARILYN N MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLTHOFF — 4-14-05

1

A:

At my home.

2

Q:

How many letters did you receive

3    approximately?

4

A:

Twenty to thirty.

Q:

How did you know that the letters related

6   to the proposed expansion?

7

Did you open them and read them or was

8   there some other way?

9

A:

I opened them and when I saw they were

10   about the expansion I put them in a stack and turned them

11   all in to the County Clerk.

12

Q:

Did you read any of the letters?

13

A:

Just to determine what it was about. Then

14   I put them on the stack.

15

I did not read them. They were addressed

16   to me personally by often just the address of the person

17   sending it.

18

Q:

And the letters that you read, were they

19   opposed to the proposed expansion?

20

A:

By not reading them all the way through I

21   am surmising they were, but I don’t 

I didn’t read

22  them.

23

Q:

And you said you turned them in?

24

A:

Uh huh.

MARILYN 

N MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLThOFF — 4-14-05

1

Q:

You need to say yes or no.

2

A:

Yes.

3

Q:

To whom did you turn them in?

4

A:

Someone here at the County building..

Q:

When did you do that?

6

A:

I am not sure of when.

7

Q:

Did you have any meetings or discussions

8   with any persons regarding the proposed expansion prior

to March 17th of 2004?

10

A:

Yes.

11

Q:

~With whom did you have such meetings or

12   conversations?

13

A:

Mr. Harrison.

14

Q:

Is this Mr. Bruce Harrison?

15

A:

Yes.

16

Q:

How did you first have any communication

17   or contact with Mr. Harrison?

18

A:

He came to our church.

19

Q:

What is the name of your church?

20

A:

Calvary Bible Church.

21

Q:

Where is it located?

22

A:

Bradley, Illinois.

23

Q:

Is Mr. Harrison a member of the church?

24

A:

No.

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLThOFF — 4-14-05

Q:

How did he come to have communication with

2  you through the church?

3

A:

He made a request of our Associate Pastor

4   to speak to our congregation about the landfill.

Q:

Who was your Associate Pastor?

6

A:

Robert Guilford.

7

Q:

When did he make that request of Mr.

8   Guilford?

9

A:

I don’t know the date.

10

Sometime prior to March 17, 2004?

11

A:

I believe so.

12

Q:

And sometime after September 26th of 2003?

13

A:

I believe so.

14

Q:

And how did you learn of this request that

15   Mr. Harrison made?

16

A:

Mr. Guilford called me.

17

Q:~

At home?

18

A:

Yes.

19

Q:

And what did he say to you?

20

A:

He says, “There’s a gentleman here who

21   wants to speak to our church about the landfill.”

22

And I said, “Tell him no.”

23

And do you have any positions within the

24  church?

MARILYNN 

MROZYNSKI, CSR,

KANKAKEE,

ILLINOIS~

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLThOFF — 4-14-05

I

A:

I am an elder of the church and the church

2   moderator.

3

Q:

Was anything further said in the

4   discussion regarding Mr. Harrison’s request?

5

A:

He said, “Would you tell him no?”

6

Q:

And what was your response?

7

A:

I said yes.

Q:

Did you then call Mr. Harrison?

9

A:

No.

10

Q:

How did you get in contact with Mr.

11    Harrison?

12

A:

He came to the church.

13

Q:

How long after that conversation did Mr.

14   Harrison come to the church?

15

A:

That I don’t remember.

16

Q:

A few days, couple weeks?

17

A:

No, probably a few days.

18

Q:

Was it during the week or was it on a

19   weekend?

20

A:

Don’t recall.

21

Q:

Did you have any understanding as to when

22   Mr. Harrison may be coming by and speaking about his

23   request either with you or with anyone else at the

24   church?

MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLTHOFF — 4-14-05

I

A:

Mr. Guilford told me when he was coming to

2  the church.

3

Q:

Oh, he did?

4

A:

Yes.

Q:

Mr. Guilford knew a specific date when Mr.

6   Harrison was going to appear at the church, is that

7   correct?

8

A:

Yes.

Q:

And Mr. Guilford told you what that date

10

was?

11

A:

Yes~

12

And that date was on a weekend?

13

A:

Don’t remember.

14

You don’t remember.

15

So you were aware that Mr. Harrison would

16   be stopping by to speak with you at the church?

17

A:

Yes.

18

Do you have any information to know

19   whether Mr. Guilford called Mr. Harrison back to say it

20  would be okay for him to come and talk with you at the

21   church?

22

A:

No.

23

Where did you meet with Mr. Harrison at

24  the church; in an office?

MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLThOFF — 4-14-05

1

A:

Conference room.

2

In a conference room at the church?

3

A:

Yes.

4

Was Mr. Harrison by himself?

A:

Yes.

6

What did Mr. Harrison say to you during

7   this meeting?

8

A:

That he wanted to speak to the

9   congregation regarding the landfill.

10

Q:

And was he referring to the proposed

11   expansion of the existing Waste Management landfill or

12   was he talking about the proposed new landfill of Town

13   and Country utilities in the City of Kankakee?

14

A:

He didn’t distinguish at that time. He

15   just said the landfill.

16

What did you understand him to mean when

17   he indicated he wanted to talk about the landfill?

18

A:

A landfill in Kankakee County.

19

I mean I didn’t 

I didn’t know which one

20   he was talking about. I didn’t ask.

21

At that time, though, you were aware of

22   the Second Application, that is the one to expand the

23   existing landfill, correct?

24

A:

I believe so.

MARl LYNN

MROZYNSKI,

CSR,

KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION

OF WILLIAM H. OLThOFF 

—

4-14-05

Q:

Were you aware of any other requests to

approve landfills in the County other than the one that

approved the proposed expansion?

A:

I knew of the one in the Minnie Creek area

because 

well, I knew of that one.

Q:

Was it your understanding that Mr.

Harrison was there to talk to you about the proposed

expansion?

A:

I am not sure.

What else did Mr. Harrison say to you

during this meeting?

A:

Just I told him no, I didn’t feel it was

an appropriate venue to speak to our congregation.

He tried to make it a spiritual issue.

Q:

When you say he tried to make it a

spiritual issue, what do you mean?

A:

Well, that that was the reason he wanted

to speak to the congregation.

And what was your response to his wishing

to make it a spiritual issue?

A:

I didn’t agree.

And you told him that?

A:

Did Mr. Harrison say anything about the

MARILYNN 

MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

I

Yes.

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLTHOFF —

4-14-05             

15

1       location of the landfill that he wanted to speak to the

2  congregation about?

3

A:

I don’t recall.

4

Q:

Did he refer to Waste Management or any

Waste Management Company when he made his request?

6

A:

I don’t recall.

7

Did Mr. Harrison have any notepad or paper

8   with him when he met with you?

9

A:

I don’t recall.

10

Did he at any point write anything down

11    during the course of your meeting with him?

12

A:

Don’t recall.

13

Did Mr. Harrison indicate that he wished

14   to speak against the landfill to the congregation?

15

A:

Yes.

16

Did he indicate to you during the course

17   of this discussion that it was necessary or appropriate

18   to oppose the proposed expansion because of its potential

19   threat or harm to the environment?

20

A:

Yes.

21

And that if the proposed expansion were

22   allowed we would be threatening the environment, did he

23   indicate that to you as well?

24

A:

No, those specific words I don’t recall.

MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, 

CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLTHOFF 

—

4-14-05             

16

1

Did you respond to what he said regarding

2  the statement about how the environment may be affected?

3

A:

Yes, and I don’t recall how I responded,

4  but I 

I don’t recall the exact words there.

Did you indicate to him that the County

6   has a responsibility or duty to take care of its own

7   waste?

8

A:

Yes.

9

And you also indicated that to send it

10   someplace else was not a responsible posit±on-~to take?

11

A:

Yes.

12

And you said that in response to Mr.

13   Harrison’s statement about whether this expansion ought

14   to take out of County waste?

15

Did he mention that to you? Is that one

16   of the reasons he was opposing this was that the facility

17   would take out of County waste?

18

A:

I believe so.

19

And isn’t it true that he indicated that

20  the waste ought to be taken to Pontiac, instead of having

21   this expansion the waste could be sent to Pontiac?

22

A:

That was an option that he mentioned.

23

That facility is located in Livingston

24  County?

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI,CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLI NOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLThOFF —

4-14-05             

17

1

A:

Yes.

2

So Mr. Harrison did indicate that it was

3   or it would be inappropriate or wrong to accept waste

4  from Chicago here in Kankakee?

A:

Yes.

6

And did he also indicate that from a

7   spiritual standpoint that people should take care of

8   their own waste and shouldn’t be accepting waste from

9   outside the County or from other areas?

10

A:

No.

11

Let me just for a moment direct your

12   attention to a transcript of your deposition that we took

13   a number of months ago.

14

You do remember appearing for that

15   deposition, don’t you?

16

A:

Yes.

17

And that was on August ~ of 2004?

18

A:

Yes.

19

And at that time you took an oath to tell

the truth?

21

A:

Yes.

22

Q:

All I want to do is show you page 23 and I

23   will just ask you if you were asked the following

24  question and did you give the following answer: Did he

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLTHOFF —

4-14-05       

1       make any argument about a spiritual dimension to the fact

2   that perhaps people should take care of their own and

3   shouldn’t be out accepting waste from outside the County

4  or from other areas.

Answer: That was the point he was making.

6

Did you give that answer to that question?

7

A:

If that’s what the transcript says, I did.

8     I guess when you were stressing that, the way I recall it

9   now was that he was making this point from an

10   environmental aspect and I didn’t 

-—

I don’t remember

11   that he had said anything about that. Taking out of

12   County waste was a spiritual problem.

13

Q:

So it was just a question that he made the

14   statement but you don’t remember him saying it in the

15   context of it being a spiritual matter or spiritual

16

issue?

17

A:

The Chicago part?

18

Yes.

19

A:

Maybe I was thinking something else when I

20   answered that.

21

He was referring to the spiritual side of

22   it as far as the environmental issue.

23

Q:

Did Mr. Harrison make any reference to any

24   of the signs that were posted in and around the area that

MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, 

CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLThOFF — 4-14-05 .

1    said No Dump, No Chicago Garbage?

2

A:

I don’t recall.

3

Do you remember seeing any of those signs

4   in and around the area?

A:

Yes.

6

Did they say No Dump, No Chicago Garbage?

7

A:

Yes.

8

Did Mr. Harrison say anything else to you

9  during this meeting in the conference room at the church?

10

A:

Not that I recall, no.

11

Did you say anything more to him?

12

A:

I don’t recall.

13

Q:

How long did the meeting last?

14

A:

Somewhere around 15 minutes.

15

Q:

How did you conclude the meeting with him?

16

A:

I just said he couldn’t speak to the

17   congregation. That is the way we left it.

18

Q:

And what did he say in response?

19

A:

I don’t recall.

20

Q:

Did you request that the meeting come to

21   an end?

22

A:

I believe so, yes.

23

Did Mr. Harrison indicate that he wanted

24  to further follow up with maybe members of the

MARILYNN

MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLTHOFF —

4-14-05             

20

1       congregation or with you at some later point with his

2   request?

3

A:

No.

4

Q:

Did he indicate that he had been speaking

with any other County Board Members?

No.

7

Did he state or indicate that he had

8   spoken or intended to speak at any other churches?

9

A:

He said he had, I believe, spoken at

10   another church.

11

Did he indicate the name of the church or

12   where that was?

13

A:

I believe it was the Church of God, but I

14   am not sure which one.

15

There are a number of Churches of God in

16   the area?

17

A:

(Nodding head)

18

Q:

You need to say yes.

19

A:

Yes.

20

Q:

Did he state what he said when he made the

21   presentation with the Church of God?

22

A:

No.

23

Q:

Did you have any further communications,

24   discussions, contacts with Mr. Harrison regarding the

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, 

CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLTHOFF — 4-14-05

proposed expansion after he came to meet with you at the

2   church?

3

A:

One time at the County building when we

4  were going in for a meeting he was outside.

Q:

Was that on March 17, 2004?

6

A:

Yes.

7

Q:

Were there any picketers outside the

8   building that day?

Yes.

Q:

He was one of the picketers?

11

A:

Yes.

Q:

How many picketers did you see that day

13   approximately?

14

A:

Six.

15

Q:

Were they carrying signs?

Yes.

Were they the same signs we referred to

18   before, the No Dump, No Chicago Garbage signs?

I believe so.

20

And what did Mr. Harrison say to you on

21   that occasion?

22

A:

Hello.

23

Q:

Did you say anything to him other than

24   exchange of greeting?

MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLTHOFF —

4-14-05             

No.

2

Q:

Have you had any communications with Mr.

3    Harrison since that day?

4

A:

He stopped by my farm one day.

Q:

When did that occur?

6

A:

It was after the March ~ meeting.

7   don’t know when.

Do you recall that there was a Motion to

9   Renew Consideration of the County Board vote on March

17th?

11

MR. PORTER: April l3th? Oh, it’s a vagUe

12   question. I object.

13

MR. MORAN: 

Do you understand my

14   question?

15

A:

I am not sure when the Motion to

16   Reconsider was made.

17

Q:

Are you aware there was a Motion to

Reconsider the County Board’s vote which occurred on

19   March l7th?

20

A:

Yes.

21

And the County Board ultimately voted on

22  that Motion to Renew Consideration on April 13, 2004, is

23   that correct?

24

A:

If that’s what the date is. I am not

MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLThOFF —

4-14-05             

1    familiar with the date.

2

Q:

When Mr. Harrison came out to your farm

3   was it in that period between March 17th and April 

13th1

of

4   2004?

can’t say definitely. I don’t remember.

6

Q:

Did Mr. Harrison come to your farm

7   unannounced?

Yes.

9

Q:

Uninvited?

10

A:

Yes.

11

Was it during the week?

12

A:

Yes.

13

Or weekend?

14

A:

I believe it was during the week.

15

Daytime hours or in the evening?

16

A:

Daytime.

17

Q:

What did he say to you?

18

MR. PORTER: I’m going to object on

19   relevancy and as you know, Mr. Moran, an objection was

20  sustained by Mr. Halloran concerning statements made

21   after March 17, 2004 or at least by the end of the

22   hearing that objection was sustained quite often.

23

I believe that he would sustain my

24  objection at this time and I’ll allow you to ask the

MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLThOFF 

—

4-14-05             

1    question as an offer of proof.

2

How do you wish to proceed at this time?

3

MR. MORAN: Well, without having a ruling

4  from him today, I would recognize your objection and

simply request the response recognizing that it may only

6   come in as an offer of proof if he sustains the objection

7  and if he doesn’t sustain the objection, it comes in for

8   whatever it’s worth.

9

So either way it’s to make a record, to

10   have this available and I think it would be up to

11   Halloran to just rule on that objection you’re going to

12   make. If he sustains it, then we will make the offer of

13   proof.

14

MR. PORTER: I would direct the witness

15   not to answer the question that was posed, but allow him

16   to respond as an offer of proof. That suffices for our

17   record.

18

MR. MORAN: That’s fine.

19

MR. PORTER: So now, if you would have

20   that read back 

-—

or, answer the question.

21

MR. MORAN: Why don’t you read it?

22

(Whereupon the desired portion was read by

23

the reporter)

24

MS. GORSKI: This is the beginning of your

MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, 

KANKAKEE,

ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLThOFF — 4-14-05

1    offer of proof?

2

MR. MORAN: Yes.

3

THE WITNESS: A: I am confused.

4

MR. PORTER: Don’t worry about all that.

Just answer the question. What did he say to you?

6

MR MORAN: 

This is Mr. Harrison when

7   he came to your farm.

8

A:

He wanted to thank me for my vote.

9

What else did he say?

10

A:

Very little. I had someone else in the

11    office and I didn’t have time to speak with him.

12

This is your office at your farm?

13

A:

At the farm.

14.

Who was the other person?

15

A:

I don’t recall.

16

What did you say to Mr. Harrison when he

17   said, “Thank you for your vote”?

“I’m

busy.”

Did you say anything else to him?

20

A:

I don’t recall.

Did

he say any more to you?

22

A:

I don’t recall.

23

Now how long did the meeting last?

24

A:

Thirty seconds.

MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLThOFF

—

4-14-05             

1

Did he leave your property at that point?

2

A:

Yes.

3

Q:

Did you have any further communication,

4  contacts or discussions with Mr. Harrison after that

date?

6

A:

I believe he was in a County Board meeting

7   in the public area, but I mean one of the seats behind

8   the County Board one time that I remember. That’s all.

9

Did you speak with him or communicate with

10   him in any way at that point?

11

A:

No.

12

Q:

That will end this offer of proof.

13

Let’s go back for a moment to the First

14   Application, the one that you didn’t vote on when you

15   were unavailable for that County Board vote.

16

Prior to that County Board vote on January

17   31, 2003 had anyone come to your church and requested the

18   right to speak to the congregation about the proposed

19   expansion?

20

A:

No.

21

In fact, at any point prior to Mr.

22  Harrison appearing and making that request had anyone

23   ever come to the church asking to speak to the

24  congregation about any landfill matters?

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLTHOFF

—

4-14-05             

No.

2

Do you recall having received any written

3   materials in which the following statement was contained:

4  Dump the dump or we’ 11 dump you?

Yes.

6

And did you receive that communication

7   prior to March 17th of 2004?

8

A:

Yes.

9

It was prior to the vote on the Second

10   Application?

11

A:

Yes.

12

Did you receive that written material at

13   home?

14

A:

Yes.

15

Was it mailed to you or did somebody leave

16   it at your house?

17

A:

Mailed.

18

Did you have any discussion or

19   communication with any person about that statement?

20

A:

Not that I recall.

21

Was it your understanding that the person

22   who had sent that statement was indicating that unless

23   you oppose the expansion that there would be some efforts

24   made to defeat you if you elected to run again for the

MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, 

CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLThOFF

—

4-14-05             

County Board?

2

MR. PORTER: Objection, calls for

3   conjecture, calls for a statement that is not an ex parte

4   communication because those letters were filed by the

mailers with the County Clerk Bruce Clark.

6

Regardless, I’m going to go ahead and let

7   the witness answer it, reserving my objection.

8

THE WITNESS: A: What’s the question?

9

(Whereupon the desired portion was read by

10

the reporter)

11

THE WITNESS: A: Not specifically.

12

MR. MORAN: 

What was your

13    understanding of this statement: Or We’ll Dump You?

14

A:

I wasn’t sure.

15

Did you have any understanding as to what

16   that meant?

17

MR. PORTER: Same objection.

18

MR. MORAN: 

Did you understand it to

19   mean there might be some physical violence inflicted upon

20   you?

21

A:

I was just puzzled by it, I guess, is my

22   answer.

23

And you were puzzled by it 

24

A:

What it meant.

MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLTHOFF

—

4-14-05

1

(continuing) because?

2

Did you think of the different meanings

3   this phrase may have had and did they include the ones

4  that I just identified?

A:

Yes.

6

MR. MORAN: No further questions.

7

MR. PORTER: I have a few.

8

CROSS EXAMINATION

9

BY MR. PORTER:

10

You mentioned you were a church moderator.

11

What does that mean?

12

A:

I handle the congregational meetings.

13   chair them.

14

And if someone were to make a request to

15   speak at the church would you be responsible for setting

16   that agenda?

17

A:

Yes.

18

Were you meeting with Mr. Harrison as a

19   County Board.Member?

20

A:

No.

21

Now how were you meeting with Mr.

22  Harrison?

23

A:

As the church moderator.

24

And was your purpose in meeting with Mr.

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLThOFF

—

4-14-05

Harrison to inform him he could not speak to the church

2  about the landfill application or the landfill in

3   general?

4

A:

Yes.

Q:

Was your purpose to learn what his

position was on landfilling

or Waste Management’s

7   Application?

8

A:

No.

9

Did you feel threatened or intimidated by

10   Mr. Harrison’s statements?

11

MR. MORAN: Objection. You can answer it.

12

MR. PORTER: 

He has to make an

13   objection for the record.

14

A:

No.

15

You had been instructed to disregard any

16   statements that were made outside of the hearing process,

17   is that correct?

Yes.

19

Did you follow that instruction?

MR.

MORAN: 

Objection.

21

THE WITNESS: A: Yes.

22

MR. PORTER: 

There was some mention of

23   some letters you received before March 17th of 2004.

24

Did you feel threatened or intimidated by

MARILYN N MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLTHOFF 

—

4-14-05

1    the receipt of those letters?

2

MR. MORAN: Objection.

3

THE WITNESS: A: No.

4

MR. PORTER: 

There was some mention of

some picketers that you saw on your way in to vote on

6   March 17th

7

Did you feel threatened or intimidated in

8   seeing those picketers?

MR.

MORAN:

Objection.

10

THE WITNESS: 

No.

MR. PORTER:

was also mentioned

12   that the signs were posted around Kankakee. Did you feel

13   threatened or intimidated by those signs?

14

MR. MORAN: Objection.

THE WITNESS: A: No.

16

MR. PORTER: 

In regard to the letters,

17   picketers and signs, again did you follow the instruction

18   to disregard, statements or materials that were submitted

19   outside of the hearing process?

20

MR. MORAN: Objection.

21

THE WITNESS: A: Yes.

22

MR. PORTER: I have nothing further

23

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

24

BY MR. MORAN:

MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLThOFF 

— 4-14-05

1

Mr. Olthoff, did Mr. Harrison know that

2   you were a County Board Member when he met with you at

the church that day?

4

MR. PORTER: Objection, calls for

conjecture, but I will let the witness answer.

THE WITNESS:

A: I don’t know.

7

MR. MORAN: 

Did he in any way refer to

8    his actions in attempting to contact other County Board

Members regarding the proposed expansion?

10

A:

No.

11

Was the Pastor of your church aware you

12   were a County Board Member?

13

MR. PORTER: Same objection. You can

answer.

You can answer.

THE WITNESS: A: I

am not sure, but I

16   would guess yes.

17

MR. MORAN: 

Was Mr. Guilford aware you

18   were a County Board Member?

19

A:

That’s what we were talking about.

20

I’m sorry. I thought he was the Associate

21   Pastor.

22

A:

He was the Associate. You said your

Pastor.

24

Your Pastor, yes.

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLThOFF 

—

4-14-05

Yes.

Okay. So just so we’re clear, your answer

is yes, both the Pastor

and Associate Pastor knew you

4   were a County Board Member?

MR. PORTER: I’ll object. That

mischaracterizes

the previous testimony.

THE WITNESS:

I know

MR. PORTER: Yes to the

Associate Pastor.

Go ahead.

THE WITNESS:

I would say that is

accurate.

12

MR. PORTER: What is accurate; my objection

13    or his question?

14

THE WITNESS: A: This was so early in the

15   process that I am just saying yeah, I believe they knew I

16   was a County Board Member or ran for the County Board,

17   but, you know, I don’t know for sure.

18

MR. MORAN: 

Well, you were elected

19   County Board Member in December of 2002, correct?

Yes.

This conversation with Mr. Harrison took

22

place in 

Yes.

(continuing)

2004?

MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLTHOFF 

— 4-14-05

1

A:

Okay. They knew I was a County Board

2  Member. I was thinking incorrectly.

3

With respect to this witness, as I did

4  with other witnesses, I would now ask this witness the

same series of questions I asked Ms. Hertzberger about

6  the reasons and bases for his vote on, in this case,

7  criteria 1, 3 and 6 and exclude those questions that ask

8   why he changed his vote.. Obviously Mr. Olthoff never

voted the first time and with that I have no further

10   questions.

11

MR. PORTER: Obviously my same objections

12   would apply.

13

We have nothing further.

14

MR. MORAN: Thank you, Mr. Olthoff. We

are done.

FURTHER DEPONENT SAITH NOT...

17

18

20

21

22

23

24

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, 

CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLTHOFF

— 4-14-05

1    STATE OF ILLINOIS 

)

2  COUNTYOFCOOK

3

4

I, MAR.ILYNN 

MROZYNSKI,

a Notary Public within

and for the County of Cook, State of Illinois, and a

6

Certified Shorthand Reporter of said state, do

hereby certify:

8

That previous to the commencement of the

examination of the witness, WILLIAM OLTHOFF, he was

10

by me first duly sworn to testify the whole truth

11

concerning this matters; herein;

12

That the foregoing deposition was reported

13

stenographically by me, and thereafter reduced to

14

typewriting under my personal direction;

That the said deposition was taken before me at

16

the time and place specified;

That the reading and signing of said deposition

was not waived by counse.l for the respective parties

19

and the witness, and that the said deposition

constitutes

a true record of the testimony given by

21

said witness;

22

That I a not a relative of, or employee or

23

attorney or counsel for any of the parties, nor a

24

relative or employee of any attorney or counsel for

MARILYN N MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM H. OLTHOFF 

—

4-14-05

any of the parties hereto, nor interested directly

or indirectly in the outcome of this action.

IN TESTIMONY WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my

ij~c-J

hand and affixed my notarial seal this ~  day of

A.D. 2005.

MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

1

2

3

4

7

~10

OFFICIAL SEAL

MARIIYNN MROZYNSKI

Notary Public. State of Illinois

CommissIon Expires

Apr 20, 2007

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04/17/05 21:40:451

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND 

- 4-14-05

CLERK’S

APR

C 192005

OFFICE~V 

)

BEFORE THE ILLINOIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOA~ATE

Pollution

OFControlILLINOISBoard

WASTE MANAGEMENT OF ILLINOIS, INC.

Petitioner,

vs.

)

No. PCB 04-186

COUNTY BOARD OF KANKAKEE

COUNTY, ILLINOIS

Respondent.

The evidence deposition of 

DUANE BERTRAND,

taken in the above-entitled

matter on the

14th

day of

April, A.D., 2005, at the hour of 1:00 p.m., at 189 East

Court Street,

13t

Floor Conference Room, Kankakee,

Illinois, pursuant to the provisions of the Code of Civil

Procedure of the State of Illinois and the Rules of the

Supreme Court and the Illinois

Pollution Control Board,

before MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, a notary public and court

reporter certified by the State of Illinois 

(Certificate

No. 84-667)

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, C.S.R.

CertUied Shorthand Reporters

One Dearborn Square

Suite 510

Kankakee, 

Illinois 60901

815-935-0545

Fax 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND— 4-14-05

APPEARANCES:

THE

LAW

FIRM OF:

PEDERSON & HOUPT, by

MR. DONALD J.

MORAN

16. North Clark Street

Suite 3100

Chicago, Illinois 60601-3224

Appeared on behalf of the Petitioner;

THE LAW FIRM OF:

HINSHAW & CULBERTSON, LLP, by

MR. RICHARD S. PORTER

100 Park Avenue

Rockford, Illinois 61105-1389

Appeared on behalf of the 

Respondent;

MR. EDWARD D. SMITH, STATE’S ATTORNEY

KANKAKEE COUNTY, by

MS. BRENDA L. GORSKI

ASSISTANT STATE’S ATTORNEY, KANKAKEE COUNTY

189 East Court Street

Kankakee, Illinois

60901

Appeared for Kankakee County.

INDEX

Examination By:                    

Page

Direct Examination by Mr. Moran

Cross Examination by Mr. Porter

ReDirect Examination by Mr. Moran         

27

ReCross Examination by Mr. Porter

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND— 4-14-05

(WITNESS SWORN)

DUANE

BERTRAND,

called as a witness by the Petitioner

herein, having been first duly sworn on oath, was

examined and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

7

BY MR. MORAN:

What is your name and spell your last name

for our court reporter.

10

A:

Duane Bertrand. B-E-R-T-R-A-N-D.

11

What is your address, Mr. Bertrand?

12

A:

3969 South 4000 West Road, Kankakee,

13   Illinois.

How long have you lived there?

At that residence since ‘78.

I built the

16

house.

Are you a 

Kankakee County Board Member?

18

A:

Yes, sir.

19

How long have you been on the Kankakee

County Board?

Be twelve years.

I think it will be

twelve years in December or thirteen,

one of the two.

23

‘93 anyhow.

24

Are you aware that Waste Management of

MAR! LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND— 4-14-05

Illinois

filed an Application to expand the existing

Kankakee landfill

in August of 2002?

Yes.

I will refer to that as the First

Application or 

All right.

The 2002 Application.

Was there then another Application filed

in September of 2003 to expand that landfill?

Well, I don’t recall the date.

I don’t

recall the date, but yeah, the Second Application,

sure.

And

I will refer to that Application as

the 2003 or the Second Application.

14

A:

All right.

Prior to the vote on the First Application

which occurred on January

315t

of 2003 did you receive any

17   phone calls regarding the proposed expansion?

18

A:

Yes, I did.

19

And about how many of these calls would

you have received?

21

A:

Six maybe.

22

Now I am talking about the First

23   Application, not the Second one.

24

A:

All right.

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, 

KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND- 4-14-05

You received about six before the first

2   one?

.3

A:

Well, maybe it wasn’t that many. I don’t

4  recall.

Did you receive any letters or written

6   materials prior to the First Application which would have

7   been prior to January of 2003?

8

A:

Yes.

9

You received those at your home?

10

A:

Yes.

11

How many did you receive?

12

A:

Oh, I don’t recall, but I turned them all

13   in to the County Clerk.

14

The first time?

15

A:

All of my letters I received.

16

And you voted on the First Application?

17

A:

Yes.

18

And you voted to approve the First

19   Application?

20

A:

Yes.

21

You voted on the Second Application?

22

A:

Yes.

That occurred on March 

17th ~

2004?

24

A:

Whatever (gesturing).

MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, 

KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND- 4-14-05

1

And did you vote to approve the Second

2   Application?

3

A:

Yes.

4

Was the First Application essentially the

same as the Second Application?

6

A:

In my opinion.

7

Yes?

8

A:

Yes.

9

Prior to your vote on the Second

10   Application, this would have been prior to March ~ of

11    2004, did you receive any phone calls?

12

A:

Yes.

13

You received about a half a dozen phone

14   calls?

15

A:

I would say yes.

16

One of the people who called you was Doug

17   Flageole?

18

A:

Yes.

19

What did Mr. Flageole say to you in that

20  phone conversation?

21

A:

He wanted to know how I was going to vote

22  and I wouldn’t tell him.

23

What else did he say to you?

24

A:

Well, he kept asking me questions and I

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND- 4-14-05              

I    wasn’t answering and he said, “Well, you’re going to vote

2   for it and I can just tell by that.”

3

So he said, “I’m going to run against you

4   and beat you the next time you are up for election.”

But I told him, I said, “Well, you will

6   have to move because I am not in your District.”

7

Did you view his statements as being a

8    threat to you?

A:

Not really.

Did you view it as a form of a threat of

11

sorts?

12

A:

I think it was.

13

And did he make that statement or threat

14   to you in the event you voted in favor of the expansion?

15

A:

Well, he could tell that by, you know, my

16   not answering him that I was going to be in favor of it.

17   No doubt about that. At least that was his opinion.

18

And is that the way that you took his

19   statement, he would run against you, in the event you

20   voted for it he would run against you?

21

A:

Yes.

22

Did he indicate to you that there were

23   reasons why he opposed the expansion?

24

A:

No.

MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, 

CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND— 4-14-05

Like the water, the safety, safety,

anything like that?

He just got angry and hung up.

So he hung up on you?

Yes.

How long did the conversation last?

7

A:

I don’t know. Five minutes maybe.

8

Did you also receive phone calls from

9   individuals who lived in Bradley—Bourbonnais?

10

A:

I might have received one, but I can’t

11   recall who it was.

12

Are you aware that there were certain

13   County Board Members who voted to approve the First

14   Application and then changed their votes and voted

against the Second Application?

16

A:

Yes.

17

And were two of those Board Members Ed

18   Meents and Jim Vickery?

19

A:

Yes.

20

Did you have any facts or information that

21   would indicate why these two County Board Members changed

22  their vote from approval on the First Siting Application

to disapproval on the Second Siting Application?

A:

No.

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI,

CSR,

KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF 

DUANE BERTRAND— 4-14-05

1

Would it refresh your recollection if I

2   were to refer you to the deposition that you had given in

3   this case a number of months ago and I had asked you that

4

very 

question and you had indicated that yes, you did

5   have some information but that in your view it was just

based on your understanding at that time.

7

Would that refresh your recollection as to

8   the fact that you told me 

A:

I don’t remember saying that, but, you

know.

11

MR. PORTER: Okay. You’ve answered the

12   question.

13

MR. MORAN: 

Mr. Bertrand, do you

14   remember appearing for your deposition in this matter on

June 

29th

of 2004?

16

A:

Yes.

17

And at that time you took an oath to tell

18   the truth?

19

A:

Yes.

20

And you did that on that occasion, is that

21   correct?

22

A:

Yes.

Do you recall being asked the following

24   question and giving the following answer on page 15 of

MARILYN N MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND- 4-14-05

1       the deposition transcript. You can read along with me.

2

The question was: Do you have any facts

3   or information that would explain or indicate why these

4   two County Board Members changed their vote from approval

for the First Siting Application to disapproval for the

6   Second Siting Application?

7

Mr. Porter interposed an objection or

8   instruction: Same caution, calls only for a yes or no

9   response and you are free to answer that if you know.

And your response to that question was,

Ii   Answer: Well, I would say yes but I would like to say I

12   just have speculation.

Did you give that answer to that question?

14

A:

I think I did.

15

And you were aware that there were other

16   County Board Members who changed their vote from an

17   approval on the First Application to a disapproval on the

18   Second Application 

19

A:

Yes.

(continuing) is that correct?

21

You told us about some of the phone calls

22  you received on the Second Siting Application prior to

23

March 

17th ~

2004.

Did you receive any letters or any written

MARILYN N MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND— 4-14-05

1       materials prior to March 

17th

of 2004 regarding the

2   proposed expansion?

A:

I don’t recall, but I would have to say

4   yes, I did but I don’t recall.

Did you receive any written materials

prior to March 17, 2004 in which the statement was made:

7   Dump the Dump or We’ 11 Dump You?

8

A:

Yes, I think I heard that.

9

And did you have any understanding as to

what that statement meant in reference to you?

11

MR. PORTER: I’m going to object. Calls

12   for conjecture, is also argumentative, delves into the

mental impressions of this witness.

14

Furthermore, it involves a statement made

15   in the record itself and therefore, I am very concerned

16   about the mental impression.. I object to it.

17

You can go ahead and answer if you know.

18

THE WITNESS: What was your question

19   again?

MR. MORAN: 

That phrase, Dump the Dump

21   or We’11 Dump You 

- -

22

A:

Well, I suppose they were talking about my

23   political office.

24

Did you understand that part of that

MAR! LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

81 5-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND- 4-14-05

1       statement which said: We’ll Dump You to mean that person

2   or whoever was writing this would work to defeat you if

you sought re-election to your post?

4

A:

Yes.

Did that statement We’ll Dump You indicate

to you that the author or the person who wrote that

7   statement might inflict some physical violence or in some

8

other way 

9

A:

No.

~--

(continuing) provide that kind of a 

11

A:

No.

12

(continuing) threat to you?

13

A:

No.

14

You only viewed it from the standpoint

that someone would try to defeat you 

16

A:

Sure.

17

(continuing) in your re-election to the

18   County Board?

19

A:

Yes, yes.

20

Now on March 17, 2004 were there picketers

21   outside this building?

22

A:

Yes.

23

Q:

How many picketers were there?

24

A:

I have no idea because I just walked right

MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, 

ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND— 4-14-05

by them and came into the building.

2

Q:

Were any of them carrying signs?

A:

Pardon?

Were any of them carrying signs?

A:

Oh, yes.

Did you read any of the signs?

A:

Only the one where it said No Dump, No

Chicago Waste. I didn’t read the rest of the signs.

9

And in fact, were those signs, the ones

10   that said No Dump, No Chicago Garbage located at various

11    places throughout Kankakee?

12

A:

Oh, yes.

13

Q:

You saw all those?

14

A:

Well, I didn’t see them all, but I saw

enough of them.

You saw a number of them?

17

A:

Yes. In fact, there is one right next

18   door to me yet. My neighbors.

19

It’s still there?

A:

Yeah.

21

Do you know an individual by the name of

22   Bruce Harrison?

23

A:

Yes, I do.

24

Can you tell us who Mr. Harrison is?

MAR! LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND— 4-14-05

1

A:

Can I tell you who he is?

2

The only thing I know about Bruce is that

first time I met him was when he came to meetings and

he’s recognized by his beard, but I don’t know anything

else about him.

Did Mr. Harrison oppose the proposed

7   expansion of the existing landfill?

8

A:

Yes.

Did you ever meet with Mr. Harrison?

A:

Yes.

11

Q:

WHen?

12

A:

It was before the second hearing.

Was it before the vote of 

the County Board

14   on the Second Application?

15

A:

Yes.

16

Sometime prior to March 

17th

of 2004?

17

A:

Yes.

And where did that meeting take place?

At Bill’s Café on Kennedy.

20

Was anyone else present?

21

A:

Ed Meents.

22

What time of day did the meeting take

23   place?

A:

Seven or seven-thirty.

MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND— 4-14-05              

15

In the morning?

2

A:

Yes. It was a breakfast.

3

What did Mr. Harrison say at this meeting?

4

A:

Well, he wanted to talk to us about the

dangers of landfills.

6

Did he identify generally or in any way

7   what those dangers were?

8

A:

Well, the longer he talked the more expert

he became.

Did he mention the danger to the water

11

supply?

A:

Oh, everything.

That was one thing?

14

A:

Yes.

What other dangers did he talk about?

16

A:

I don’t recall.

17

At this time we never answered him. We

18   just listened.

19

Q:

What he was telling you were reasons why

20   he believed the proposed expansion should not be

21   approved?

22

A:

Yes. He thought that there 

there was

23   better ways to handle garbage and definitely no out of

24  County garbage.

MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND— 4-14-05

1

He said that was not something that the

2  County ought to allow, out of County garbage?

3

A:

Yes.

4

Did he indicate in any way the fact that

the proposed expansion was located close to the river and

6   that was a possible problem?

7

A:

I don’t recall. Just he jabbered on and

8   on for half an hour.

9

Did he talk about the high water table on

10   that day?

11

A:

Probably,’ but I don’t recall.

And he was giving you this information for

13   the purpose of trying to persuade you to vote against the

Second Application?

15

MR. PORTER: Objection, calls for

16   conjecture.

17

You can go ahead and answer.

THE WITNESS: I can answer?

19

MR. PORTER: Yes.

THE WITNESS: A: Yes.        

21

MR.

MORAN:

Did Mr. Harrison make any

22  statements about the applicant Waste Management of

Illinois,

what kind of a company it was or whether it was

reliable or capable of operating

MARILYN N MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND- 4-14-05              

17

1

A:

No, I don’t recall.

2

(continuing) a .landf ill?

3

A:

I don’t recall.

4

Now how long did the breakfast meeting

last with Mr. Harrison?

6

A:

Oh, half hour, forty-five minutes.

7

Did you say anything to Mr. Harrison

8   during the course of this meeting?

9

A:

Just that we wouldn’t 

we’d listen, but

10   we wouldn’t answer any questions.

11

Did Mr. Meents say’ anything to Mr.

12   Harrison?

13

A:

Same thing I said.

14

That you would listen but you wouldn’t

15   make any comment 

16

A:

No.

17

(continuing) is that correct?

18

A:

That’s correct.

19

And was it your understanding that Mr.

Harrison was talking to you about the proposed expansion

2.1

of the existing landfill?

22

A:

Yes.

23

Was there any mention or reference made by

Mr. Harrison to the proposed 

Town

and Country utilities

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND- 4-14-05

landfill in the City of Kankakee?

2

A:

No.

3

After that meeting with Mr. Harrison and

4   Mr. Meents did you have any other communications or

contacts with Mr. Harrison?

A:

No.

7

Did you see him at the County Board

8   meeting when you voted on March 17, 2004?

9

A:

Yes.

10

He was out here?

11

A:

Yes.

Was he carrying a sign?

13

A:

I don’t recall, but he did introduce me as

Mr. Bertrand and I live in Otto and I voted for it the

first time around.

16

And that is how he introduced you to the

17   other picketers?

18

A:

Yes. I kept right on walking.

19

You wouldn’t say anything to him 

A:

No.

(continuing) or to any of the

22   picketers?

23

A:

No.

24

Do you know Mr. Ron Thompson?

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND- 4-14-05

A:

Yes.

2

Who is Mr. Thompson?

3

A:

He is the Supervisor of Otto Township.

4

And was Mr. Thompson opposed to the

proposed expansion?

A:

Yes.

7

Did you have any communications with Mr.

8    Thompson prior to March 17, 2004 in which he stated to

you his opposition to the proposed expansion?

A:

Yes.

11

Was that outside the context of the public

hearings on the Second Application?

A:

Yes.

14

Did Mr. Thompson indicate to you that he

had spoken with any other County Board Members regarding

16   the proposed expansion?

17

A:

No, no.

18

I believe you indicated that you had

19   several meetings with Mr. Thompson prior to March 17,

2004 regarding this proposed expansion.

21

MR. PORTER: I object. He never indicated

22   that.

23

MR.

MORAN:

Is that true?

24

MR. PORTER: Same objection. The question

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND- 4-14-05              

1    is if he’s indicated it. This assumes facts that aren’t

2   in evidence.

THE WITNESS: You want me to answer that?

4

MR. PORTER: You can answer as an offer of

proof.

THE WITNESS: A: I wouldn’t say several.

MR.

MORAN:

How many times did you

have any communications or discussions with Mr. Thompson

9   about the proposed expansion outside the context of a

public hearing prior to March 17, 2004?

11

A:

Oh, couple times maybe ‘is all.

In these discussions was he indicating to

you that he was trying to get you to change your vote

14   from approving to disapproving the proposed expansion?

15

A:

Yes.

16

Q:

The meeting that you had with Mr. Harrison

and Mr. Meents, did you report that meeting to anyone at

the County?

A:

No.

Do you know if Mr. Meents reported it to

anyone at the County?

22

A:

I don’t know.

23

At any point during the meeting with Mr.

24   Harrison did he write any of it down? Did he have a

MARILYN N MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND— 4-14-05

1    notepad with him or a pen or a pencil?

2

A:

No.

3

Did he have any written materials with

4   him?

Not that I recall.

He didn’t offer to give you any written

7   materials at that point?

8

A:

No.

9

At any point during that conversation did

Mr. Harrison indicate that he had been speaking with the

Kankakee County State’s Attorney or any other County

12

Board Members regarding the proposed expansion?

No.

14

I believe you indicated that during that

meeting with Mr. Harrison he had kind of described

himself as being an expert in landfills?

17

A:

Yes.

18

Thank you, Mr. Bertrand.

19

A:

You’re welcome.

I have nothing more.

21

MR. PORTER: I have a few follow ups.

22

CROSS EXAMINATION

23

BY MR. PORTER:

24

You did not believe that Mr. Harrison was

MARILYN N MROZYN SKI, CSR, KAN KAKEE, ILLI NOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND— 4-14-05              

1    an expert in landfills, did you?

2

A:

No.

MR.

MORAN:

Objection.

THE WITNESS:

No.

He just thought he

was. He was 

a hydrologist,

too, and geologist and

whatever.

MR. PORTER:

Is it your understanding

8    he was a hydrologist and geologist?

Do I understand?

You said he was a hydrologist and

11    geologist?

.12

He thought he was.

You knew he was not, right?

Oh, yes, I knew that.

You were being sarcastic when you said

that he was, correct?

Well, that’s what he talked about mostly.

I’m just asking because it’s very

19   difficult for the court reporter to take down sarcasm.

So you were trying to be sarcastic when

21   you made that statement?

I guess.

There was some reference to Mr. Flageole

and when you spoke to Mr. Flageole there was some

MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND—

4-14-05              

1    statement that maybe he was threatening to run against

2  you.

3

Did you feel threatened by that statement?

4

MR. MORAN: Objection.

MR. PORTER: 

You can answer.

6

A:

No, I didn’t feel threatened.

7

Did you feel intimidated in any way by

8   that statement?

9

MR. MORAN: Objection.

10

THE WITNESS: A: Not really.

11

MR. PORTER: 

There was a mention of

12   picketers that were present on March 17, 2004.

13

Were you threatened or intimidated by the

14   presence of the picketers?

15

A:

No.

16

There was a mention of some letters.

17

Were you threatened or intimidated by any

18   letters you received?

19

A:

No.

20

By the way, you actually voted in favor of

21   Waste Management’s application both times, is that right?

22

A:

Yes.

23

There was some mention of signs. Strike

24

that.

MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND— 4-14-05

In regard to the letters there was some

2   mention of letters stating Dump the Dump or We’ll Dump

3

You.

4

Were you threatened or intimidated by that

statement in the letter?

6

MR. MORAN: Objection.

7

THE WITNESS: A: No.

8

MR. PORTER: 

There was some mention of

signs that were posted in Kankakee County.

10

Were you threatened or intimidated by any

11

signs?

12

MR. MORAN: Objection.

13

THE WITNESS: A: No.

14

MR. PORTER: 

There was a mention of

breakfast where Mr. Harrison was present with you and Mr.

16   Meents.

17

Isn’t it true that at that breakfast you

18   informed Mr. Harrison several times you were not going to

19   speak to him about the landfill?

20

MR. MORAN: Objection.

21

THE WITNESS: A: Yes.

22

MR. MORAN: Objection, leading.

23

MR. PORTER: 

What did you say to Mr.

24   Harrison about whether you would speak to him concerning

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND- 4-14-05

1       the landfill?

2

A:

What was that again?

3

What did you say to Mr. Harrison about

4   whether you would speak to him concerning landfills?

A:

We told him that we wouldn’t. We would

6   listen but we wasn’t going to say anything.

7

Now you had been instructed by the State’s

8   Attorney’s office to disregard any statements made to you

9   outside of the hearing process concerning landfill

10   applications, is that right?

A:

Yes.

12

Did you follow that instruction?

13

MR. MORAN: Objection.

14

THE WITNESS: A: Well, the best you

15   could. People Oome up to you and start talking. Well,

16   you know, you tell them you couldn’t talk about it.

17

MR. PORTER: 

And when they would start

18   talking to you would you disregard their statements if

19   they were made outside the hearing?

20

MR. MORAN: Objection.

21

THE WITNESS: A: Yes.

22

MR. PORTER: 

There was some mention of

23   Mr. Ron Thompson and some statements of Ron Thompson.

24

Did you feel intimidated or threatened by

MARl LYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND- 4-14-05              

1       any statement Mr. Thompson made?

2

MR. MORAN: Objection.

THE WITNESS: A: No.

4

MR. PORTER: 

Again did you follow the

instruction to disregard statements made outside the

6   hearing process?

7

MR. MORAN: Objection.

8

MR. PORTER: 

Did you follow that

instruction?

A:

Yes.

11

How long have you been on the County

12   Board, Mr. Bertrand?

13

A:

Since ‘93.

14

And what is your age?

15

A:

My age?

Yes.

17

A:

Seventy-five.

18

After Mr. Harrison made the statements to

19   you and Mr. Thompson made his statements to you did you

20   change your vote?

21

A:

No.

22

So you voted the same way you did the

23   first time, correct?

24

A:

Yes.

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE 

BERTRAND— 4-14-05

1

MR. PORTER: I have nothing further.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR.

MORAN:

Mr. Bertrand, did you know for a fact that

Mr. Harrison is not a geologist?

Yes.

And what information do you have to

support the conclusion that Mr. Harrison is not a

9   geologist?

10

A:

Everything he said I knew was, you know,

11    something he must have read or something, you know.

12

I didn’t think he was that learned.

13

Did he ever represent himself as a

geologist?

No.

16

It was just that you had that impression

from the way he was describing his objections to the

18   proposed expansion?

19

A:

Yes.

And in fact, he talked to you and Mr.

21

Meents about geology?

Yes.

And he talked to you and Mr. Meents about

hydrology?

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545

FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND— 4-14-05              

A:

Yes.

And he made it appear as though he knew

what he was talking about in connection with his

4   references to the geology and hydrology regarding the

proposed expansion?

A:

Yes.

MR.

MORAN: 

Thank you.

8

THE WITNESS: Okay.

9

RECROSS 

EXAMINATION

BY MR. PORTER:

11

At no time did you actually believe 

No.

(continuing)

he knew what he was

talking about, correct?

No, I didn’t believe anything.

MR. PORTER:

Nothing further.

MR.

MORAN: 

Thank you.

18

THE WITNESS: Because I attended the

19   hearings.

20

MR. PORTER: There is nothing further.

Thank you very much.

THE WITNESS:

Okay.

23

FURTHER DEPONENT SAITH NOT...

24

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSITION OF DUANE BERTRAND- 4-14-05              

1    STATE OF ILLINOIS

COUNTYOFCOOK

4

I,

MARILYNN

MROZYNSKI, a Notary Public within

and for the County of Cook, State of Illinois,

and a

Certified Shorthand Reporter of said state, do

hereby certify:

8

That previous to the commencement of the

examination of the witness, 

DUANE BERTRAND, he was

by me first duly sworn to testify the whole truth

11

concerning this matters; herein;

That the foregoing deposition was reported

stenographically by me, and thereafter reduced to

14

typewriting under my personal direction;

That the said deposition was taken before me at

16

the time and place specified;

That the reading and signing of said deposition

18

was not waived by counsel for the respective parties

19

and the witness, and that the said deposition

20

constitutes a true record of the testimony given by

said witness;

That I a not a relative of, or employee or

attorney or counsel for any of the parties, nor a

relative or employee of any attorney or counsel for

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

DEPOSiTION OF DUANE BERTRAND— 4-14-05              

1

any of the parties hereto, nor interested directly

or indirectly

in the outcome of this action.

3

IN TESTIMONY WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my

4~~~ixedmynotIialsealthis/~dayof

MAR~LyNNMROZyNSKJ

13

15

19

21

MARILYNN MROZYNSKI, 

CSR, KANKAKEE, ILLINOIS

815-935-0545  FAX 708-636-3839

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