1. 2 STATE OF ILLINOIS Pollution Control Board
1
RECE~VED
CLERK’S OFFICE
1
POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD
APR
162004
2
STATE OF ILLINOIS
Pollution Control Board
3
4
5
ILLINOIS ENVIRONMENTAL
6
PROTECTION AGENCY,
)
7
Complainant,
8
vs.
)
AC 04-27
Administrative
9
DOUGLAS
S. CARRICO d/b/a,
)
Citation
CARRICOS AUTO HEAP,
)
10
)
Respondent.
11
12
13
14
DATE:
Wednesday,
April
7,
2004
15
TIME:
10:00 AM
16
PLACE:
City Hall Council Room
621
5. Main Street
17
Carrolton,
Illinois
18
19
20
21
22
Kimberly A.
Ganz,
CSR,
RPR,
RMR,
CRR
23
IL Lic. #084-001691
MO Lic.
#721
24
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
2
1
APPEARANCES:
2
MS. MICHELLE
M. RYAN
DIVISION OF LEGAL COUNSEL
3
ILLINOIS ENVIRONMENTAL
PROTECTION AGENCY
1021 North Grand Avenue East
4
P.
0. Box 19276
Springfield,
IL
62794-9276
5
on behalf of the Complainant;
6
MR.
DOUGLAS CARRICO
PRO SE
7
MS.
CAROL SUDMAN
8
HEARING OFFICER
ILLINOIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD
9
1021 North Grand Avenue East
P.
0.
Box 19274
10
Springfield,
IL
62794-9274
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
3
1
HEARING OFFICER:
We will go ahead and
2
get started.
Good morning.
My name is Carol
3
Sudman.
I’m a hearing officer with the
4
Pollution Control Board.
This
is the hearing
5
for AC 04-27,
IEPA versus Douglas Carrico doing
6
business as Carricos Auto Heap.
It’s April
7,
7
2004,
and we are beginning
at 10:00 AM.
8
I’ll note for the record that there
are no
9
members of the public present.
Members of the
10
public are allowed to provide public comment
if
11
they so choose.
12
At issue in this case is the EPA’s
13
allegation
that Mr.
Carrico violated the
14
Environmental
Protection Act by allowing the
15
open dumping of waste at 19291 Carrico Road in
16
Kane,
Greene County.
You should know that it’s
17
the Pollution Control Board and not me that will
18
make the final decision in this case.
My
19
purpose
is to conduct the hearing in a neutral
20
and orderly manner so that we have
a clear
21
record of the proceedings.
I will also assess
22
the credibility of any witnesses
on the record
23
at the end of the hearing.
24
This hearing was noticed pursuant
to the
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
4
1
act and the board’s procedural
rules and will be
2
conducted pursuant to sections
101.600 through
3
101.632 of the board’s procedural
rules.
4
At this time
I would
like to ask the
5
parties to please make their appearances
on the
6
record.
7
MS.
RYAN:
Michelle Ryan,
special
8
assistant attorney general
for the Environmental
9
Protection Agency.
10
MS.
MIER:
Jan Mier,
environmental
11
protection specialist
for the Illinois
12
Environmental
Protection Agency.
13
MR.
CARRICO:
Doug Carrico.
14
HEARING OFFICER:
Representing yourself,
15
okay.
Are there any preliminary matters to
16
discuss before we begin?
17
MS.
RYAN:
I don’t have any.
18
HEARING OFFICER:
Okay.
Miss
Ryan,
would
19
you like to make an opening statement?
20
MS.
RYAN:
Yes.
We believe that the
21
evidence today will
show that on October
28,
22
2003,
Mr.
Carrico caused or allowed open dumping
23
resulting in litter at his property in Kane,
24
Greene County,
Illinois,
and that there
are no
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
5
1
defenses to this violation.
2
HEARING OFFICER:
Thank you.
Mr.
Carrico,
3
would you like to make an opening statement
4
before we begin?
You don’t have
to.
5
MR.
CARRICO:
No,
I guess
not.
6
HEARING OFFICER:
Okay.
Miss
Ryan,
you
7
may present your case.
8
MS.
RYAN:
We call Jan Mier.
9
HEARING OFFICER:
Miss Mier,
would you
10
please take
a seat on the witness
stand.
11
JAN MIER
12
Called as a witness,
being duly sworn,
testified
13
as follows:
14
DIRECT EXAMINATION
15
By
16
MS. MICHELLE M. RYAN
17
Q.
Please state your name and spell
it for
18
the record?
19
A.
Jan Mier.
J-a-n M-i-e-r.
20
Q.
What
is your job?
21
A.
I’m a field inspector for the
22
Environmental
Protection Agency.
23
Q.
How long have you been a field inspector
24
with the EPA?
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
6
1
A.
About
10 years.
2
Q.
What are your duties as a field
3
inspector?
4
A.
We investigate complaints and violations
5
of the Environmental Protection Act and the
6
Pollution Control Board regulations.
7
Q.
Approximately how many inspections have
8
you conducted in your years
at EPA?
9
A.
Over a thousand.
10
Q.
What
is your educational background?
11
A.
I have a Bachelor’s Degree in biology.
12
Q.
From?
13
A.
From the Sangamon State University.
14
Q.
Have you had any other training besides
15
your Bachelor’s Degree?
16
A.
We have occasionally we have seminars,
on
17
site training in terms of the
law,
dealing with
18
people,
that
type of things.
19
Q.
Are those presided by the agency?
20
A.
Yes,
or a contractor.
21
Q.
Are you familiar with the Carricos Auto
22
Heap property
in Kane,
Greene County,
Illinois?
23
A.
Yes,
I
am.
24
Q.
Where
is that property located?
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
7
1
A.
On Carricos Road outside of Kane.
2
Q.
Who owns that property?
3
A.
Douglas
Carrico.
4
Q.
How many inspections
have you conducted
5
at the property?
6
A.
Four.
7
Q.
I’m going
to show you what
I’ve marked
as
8
Exhibit
1.
Can you tell me
if
you recognize
9
that document?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
What
is
it?
12
A.
This
is an inspection
report
for an
13
inspection
I
did on October 28,
2003.
14
Q.
Can you page through the inspection
15
report
for me?
Is that
a fair,
accurate,
and
16
complete copy
of your report?
17
A.
Yes,
it is.
18
Q.
Can you describe
this property generally
19
speaking?
20
A.
The site was
a salvage yard that
is now
21
closed
down.
It contained
tires,
autos,
auto
22
parts.
23
Q.
Are there
any structures
on the property?
24
A.
There
is
a large building
that was
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
8
1
probably used in the salvage business.
2
Q.
Who took the photographs that are
3
attached to this report?
4
A.
I did.
s
Q.
Beginning with photograph
No.
1 which
is
6
on page
6,
can you describe what
is shown in
7
these photographs?
8
A.
Yes.
The building
is in the background
9
and there
is tractors,
vehicles,
vehicle parts,
10
there
is a bathtub,
some rusted metal,
scrap
11
metal.
12
Q.
Go ahead and continue through the photos.
13
A.
The second one shows a truck bed with
14
some
off rim tires on it surrounded by
15
vegetation.
The third photo shows
the shed in
16
the background and some heavy equipment with the
17
metal and tires.
It looks like plastic,
18
miscellaneous
debris.
The fourth is a car
19
crusher that
is used in the salvage business and
20
it has glass and metal and plastic with some oil
21
stains on the ground.
No.
5
is a school bus and
22
No.
6 is a vehicle with car parts, glass,
metal,
23
and plastic on the ground.
Photo
7
is where the
24
tires previously on site were.
There is tires
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
9
1
on axle and lumber with a combine in the
2
background.
Photo
8 shows a tractor,
a truck,
3
and there
is some lumber in the weeds.
Photo
4
No.
9 shows tires on the axles, metal,
and
S
vehicle parts.
Photo
10 shows some abandoned
6
vehicles.
Photo
11 has some cardboard,
rusted
7
pipe,
and
I think gas lanterns.
Photo
12
shows
8
two tractor tires that are off the rim.
And
9
photo
13 shows the inside of the shed with tires
10
and auto parts.
11
Q.
Okay.
In the photographs
that show
12
vehicles,
could you determine whether any of
13
these vehicles were operational?
14
A.
I didn’t
--
they looked like abandoned.
15
They had been there in weeds and vegetation and
16
many of them were damaged.
17
Q.
And does that include the trucks and the
18
tractors and the cars?
19
A.
The truck and tractor could be
20
operational but
I have no way of knowing.
21
Q.
Okay.
Do these photographs accurately
22
depict what you saw at the property on that day?
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
When was this report generated?
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
10
1
A.
When was it?
A few days after my
2
inspection.
3
Q.
Does the Illinois EPA keep these reports
4
in the regular course of its business?
S
A.
Yes.
6
MS.
RYAN:
At this time,
we would move
7
Exhibit
1 into evidence.
8
HEARING OFFICER:
Do you have any
9
objection?
10
MR.
CARRICO:
No.
11
HEARING OFFICER:
The Exhibit
1 is
12
accepted into evidence.
13
MS.
RYAN:
That’s all
I have at this time.
14
HEARING OFFICER:
Okay.
Mr.
Carrico,
15
would you like to ask the witness any questions
16
about what she’s just testified to?
17
MR.
CARRICO:
I have an outline kind of
18
laid out which part of it is questions
and part
19
of it is statements.
20
HEARING OFFICER:
You’ll have an
21
opportunity to at that time stand and make your
22
statements.
I just want
to know right now
if
23
you have any questions for this witness.
24
MR.
CARRICO:
If
I could go through this.
JO ELAINE FOSTER & ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
11
1
If
I could take a few minutes.
2
CROSS EXAMINATION
3
By
4
MR. DOUGLAS CARRICO
s
Q.
The statement that you made on October
6
28,
2003,
that
I caused or allowed open dumping
7
on the property,
could you define open dumping
8
for me?
9
A.
It’s
a placement
of litter on the ground.
10
Any waste.
11
Q.
Okay.
What would you say is litter?
12
A.
Well,
litter is
--
13
MS.
RYAN:
Objection.
It calls for a
14
legal conclusion.
15
HEARING OFFICER:
I’m going to agree with
16
that,
sir.
These
are all terms that are defined
17
in the Environmental Protection Act and
I can
18
get you copies of all of those definitions,
but
19
she’s not an attorney.
It’s really, you know,
20
not her place
to interpret
that.
You can ask
21
her questions
about what she’s seen or
--
22
Q.
But the way that the statement was made,
23
it sounds to me like on October
28 on that day
I
24
allowed open dumping.
What
is your real intent
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
12
1
in the statement?
2
A.
It means
that waste was on site and open
3
dumping was present on site the day of
4
inspection.
s
Q.
Okay.
So,
it would have been up to that
6
date;
it wasn’t necessarily dumped on that date?
7
A.
Correct.
8
MR.
CARRICO:
Okay.
Some of the
9
statements
that you made in the last letter
I
10
got
I’ll have to refute but
I guess that
is
11
really not necessarily
in
the form of a
12
question.
It would just be in my statement.
13
HEARING OFFICER:
Okay.
14
Q.
In
the time that we’ve dealt with
--
iS
we’ve never met face-to-face,
it’s always been
16
over the phone and stuff and through the mail
17
that we’ve talked with each other, but have
I
18
ever during the time that we’ve been dealing
19
with each other told you no,
I’m not going
to do
20
that,
or refused to do something that you’ve
21
asked me to do?
22
A.
No.
23
Q.
Okay.
If you’ll
remember,
you’ll
agree
24
that the original estimate of tires was grossly
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
13
1
under estimated?
2
A.
I’ll agree with that.
3
Q.
Maybe this
is a legal question to you,
4
let me know.
Is it illegal for a salvage yard
s
to have car parts and metal salvage dumped on
6
their property?
7
A.
What do you mean dumped?
By other
8
people?
9
Q.
Yeah,
customers.
10
A.
Well,
when a salvage yard is operating,
ii
they can take metal on their property and
12
recycle
it.
13
Q.
Okay.
One question
I might ask which you
14
may overrule,
too.
Does the Illinois
15
Environmental
Protection Agency have the
16
authority to overrule
a business decision
of a
17
business
owner?
I’ll put
it in context for you.
18
Like
--
19
MS.
RYAN:
I’m just going to object to the
20
question regardless
of what you have to say
21
after that because
I don’t think this witness is
22
qualified
to testify as to the authority of the
23
EPA in that.
24
MR.
CARRICO:
Would you like me to
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
14
1
rephrase
it in a situation?
2
MS.
RYAN:
I don’t think there
is anything
3
that you could say that
it would be appropriate
4
for her to answer.
S
HEARING OFFICER:
Yeah.
I don’t think
6
that’s really terribly relevant.
I mean,
you
7
know,
they are talking about, you know,
8
violations
under the act and
I don’t think it
9
really relates to business decisions.
But if
10
you want to make
--
when you make your
11
statement,
if you want to touch on that,
I’ll
12
allow
it.
13
MR.
CARRICO:
I think that would be
14
probably all the questions
that
I would have.
15
HEARING OFFICER:
Okay.
Miss Ryan?
16
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
17
By
18
MS. MICHELLE M.
RYAN
19
Q.
Miss Mier, was this salvage yard
20
operating
on
October
28,
2003?
21
A.
No.
22
Q.
In
fact,
do
you
know
when
it stopped
23
operating?
24
A.
My first inspection,
which
I believe was
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
15
1
in June of 2002,
the Secretary
of State had
2
brought us out there because the business had
3
closed down.
4
Q.
So,
it had closed down prior to your
S
first inspection in June of 2002?
6
A.
I am assuming
so,
yes.
7
MS.
RYAN:
Thank you,
that
is all.
8
HEARING OFFICER:
Do you have any further
9
questions about what Miss Ryan just asked?
10
MR.
CARRICO:
No.
11
HEARING OFFICER:
Okay.
Thank you very
12
much.
You may step down.
Miss
Ryan,
do you
13
have anything further you would like to present?
14
MS.
RYAN:
No,
I don’t.
15
HEARING OFFICER:
Thank you.
Mr.
Carrico,
16
you may now take the stand.
17
DOUGLAS CARRICO
18
Called as a witness,
being duly sworn,
testified
19
as follows:
20
HEARING OFFICER:
Go ahead.
21
MR.
CARRICO:
Well,
it was mentioned that
22
my place was an open dump and that’s why
I was
23
wanting the definition
of what they meant by
24
that.
And my question also that are all
salvage
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
16
1
yards in violation of being an open dump.
2
All the so-called litter that was on the
3
property was the result of conducting my salvage
4
yard’s business that
I was legally licensed
to
s
do up to the point where
the EPA was brought
in.
6
Nothing had been open dumped,
if you want to
7
call
it that,
or added to this property since
8
the time that
I stopped conducting my business.
9
As soon as
I went out of business,
turned over
10
my license to the Secretary of State,
I took no
11
more items.
There was nothing else brought
in.
12
Everything
that was there during the inspections
13
were things that were not cleaned up yet.
Of
14
course,
I hadn’t started the cleanup after the
15
first inspections but the subsequent
16
inspections,
they were just things that was not
17
cleaned up yet.
18
In the letter that Miss Mier sent out,
it
19
said in there that there was little change in
20
the site.
I was upset by that because we had
21
since her June
2 inspection
of 2003 which was
22
the one prior to that,
we had removed 800 more
23
tires that was the remainder of the tires that
24
was there pretty much.
There were an estimate
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
17
1
of maybe
50 ton of scrap metal that was removed.
2
There was approximately nine car bodies that had
3
been removed and some of the pictures that were
4
taken did not include pictures of areas
of the
s
work place.
6
HEARING OFFICER:
May
I interrupt you for
7
a minute?
Please continue.
8
MR.
CARRICO:
I understand,
of course,
9
that the pictures that you take
is going
to be
10
of the bad spots but there were no pictures
11
taken of the spots that had been cleaned
up.
12
The shed,
there are two large buildings on
13
each side of
the barn.
One picture was taken on
14
the interior of one,
no pictures were taken on
15
the interior of the other
side.
The other side
16
had been as full as the one that a picture was
17
taken of and at the final inspection,
it was
18
cleaned out,
swept clear down to the clean floor
19
and there was no pictures taken of that and so
20
there was
a lot of things that had been removed
21
that was not mentioned.
So,
the statement
that
22
there was little change is a gross exaggeration.
23
It was said that there was a school bus
24
that was new to the site.
In fact,
this school
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
18
1
bus has been there
all along.
I have my book
2
with me of when
I
purchased that school bus.
It
3
was in 1990 so that school bus has been there
4
since
1990.
It had just not been removed yet.
s
It was said that there was
a roll-off box
6
on site and that there appeared to be no attempt
7
to dispose of things.
That was not a roll-off
8
box,
it was just
a truck bed.
It’s not a roll-
9
off box.
10
It was mentioned in the pictures
that
11
there was vegetation growing up and that was one
12
of the questions
that
I didn’t ask.
I didn’t
13
know that vegetation
was illegal
to let it grow.
14
One of the pictures showed what was said to be
15
gas lanterns.
In reality,
these were not gas
16
lanterns,
they were sealed units that had been
17
purchased in the process of doing business.
18
They are recyclable.
We recycled those.
Just a
19
few had not been removed yet.
20
HEARING OFFICER:
Mr.
Carrico,
are you
21
speaking about
one of the pictures
that
is in
22
this package here?
23
MR.
CARRICO:
Right.
24
HEARING
OFFICER:
Do you know which one?
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
19
1
MR.
CARRICO:
I have that back here just
a
2
little bit further
if you want to wait until
I
3
get through that.
4
HEARING OFFICER:
Okay.
S
MR.
CARRICO:
As
I said,
I have never
6
refused to do what has been asked of me.
I’ve
7
always to the best of my ability done what was
8
requested.
Since
I closed the business,
of
9
course,
I had to start working and
I drive
a
10
truck now full-time and so
I don’t have a lot of
11
time to work on
it.
I do as much as
I can when
12
I’m there and
I have people that
I’ve paid to
13
come in and do what
I can as I’m able.
I’m not
14
a wealthy person.
I can’t just have it taken
15
care of all in a few weeks.
16
Something
else
I forgot to ask.
Every
17
time Miss Mier and
I spoke on the phone, her
18
focus was always tires.
Every time we talked,
19
she always said how is the tire removal coming.
20
It
was as if her main concern was tires.
So,
I
21
made that my main concern.
The removal of the
22
tires
is what
I gave priority
to.
So,
all of
23
the people that
I had helping,
all of the monies
24
that
I had available went towards getting rid of
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
20
1
the tires and the metal and other things was
2
left
for after the tires were done,
and so
3
that’s why it may have seemed that there was not
4
much going on with the other things because
all
S
of our focus was on the tire removal which we
6
took care of.
We got that taken care of.
7
I might mention that that took longer than
8
I expected because originally
the estimate was
9
2,500 tires on site and what there ended up
10
being after all of my receipts that
I’ve gotten
11
now is 6,110 tires
is what there ended up being
12
there.
So,
that,
of course,
took longer than
13
what we expected because we thought there was
14
only 2,500.
This took us
13 months to get rid
15
of the tires and the tire removal agreement that
16
I signed with the EPA and the paperwork that was
17
given to me on that in that agreement,
it states
18
that
a site containing
1,000 tires or more
is
19
allowed two years
to remove the tires and can be
20
granted an extension on top of that.
So,
we
21
were well within the two year period on the tire
22
removal.
We did a very good job,
I thought,
23
with that.
I was instructed to buy larvicide
24
for the tires to put on them.
I did that.
I
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
21
1
did everything
that was asked of me to do.
2
Okay,
now
I’ll get to the pictures.
3
Picture
No.
1.
If you want to go back through
4
them,
I’ll just make
a few statements.
S
HEARING
OFFICER:
I’ll just mention
for
6
the
record
that
you
are
looking
at
the
7
complaint.
It’s
Exhibit
1 and we are going
8
through
those
digital
photographs.
9
MR.
CARRICO:
Picture
No.
1,
and
what
I’m
10
going
to
say
is
the
quotations
by
the
pictures
ii
that was in that letter,
so you’ll see that to
12
the
side.
The
quotation
is rusted tractors and
13
bathtub.
The
tractors
are Oliver tractors,
they
14
are antique tractors.
I’m sure that doesn’t
15
necessarily mean anything to you but those are
16
not junk,
they are antiques.
The one in
17
particular
was
one of my dad’s tractors.
He was
18
an
Oliver
tractor
lover
and he passed away in
19
1988
so
I would
like to hang on to that
one,
and
20
I would hope that
I would be allowed to keep
21
items like that.
I didn’t realize that those
22
were not allowed.
23
Picture
No.
2 shows a rusted truck bed
24
with some tires on it.
Those tires have since
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
22
1
been removed.
Those were some that we just
2
overlooked prior
to
that last inspection and
3
that truck
is
a 1952 Ford that still runs and
4
the bed works on
it,
it’s got
a hoist
on
it,
so
s
we use that in
the junk yard to haul things
6
around
in the operation
of
the business
that
I
7
have since gotten rid of that truck.
I sold it
8
to a restorer.
9
Picture No.
3 shows a front end loader and
10
some various other parts.
I realize
that other
11
parts
are things that have to go.
The loader,
12
I’m assuming that just because the loader was
13
mentioned
doesn’t mean that it’s illegal to
14
have.
I mean,
the loader works.
I
use
that and
15
still
use
it.
So, hopefully
that
is not
16
something
that
I have to get rid of.
17
No.
4 shows plastic
and the oil and
18
everything
by the car crusher.
The plastic,
19
every
time plastic
is mentioned
in these
20
pictures
or letters,
it
is not plastic
bags,
21
necessarily,
like
trash.
It
is plastic
parts
22
off of cars,
like bumper fascia
and things
like
23
that that
is ripped and torn.
That is most of
24
the plastic that
is laying around,
that is what
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
23
1
it’s talking about.
So,
that
is car parts which
2
was just not cleaned up yet and was generated in
3
the process of doing business.
4
Whenever
I got rid of all of the cars that
s
I had there,
the gentleman that came in and
6
removed them,
where that picture was taken is
7
the area where he loaded them and things so
8
there was some trash generated there, you know,
9
metal plastic glass,
all of that stuff, because
10
that is where he was doing his loading.
And all
11
of that was there prior to the time that
I went
12
out of business.
13
The oil that was mentioned,
I had a seal
14
on my car crusher go out one time and it leaked
15
some oil out.
I replaced the seal right away
16
and that was a small spill.
I know
I seen
17
safety videos before on EPA regulations and
18
anything under
50 gallon or 55 gallon is a non
19
reportable
spill and it was just
a small
spill,
20
less than 50 gallon.
21
As
I mentioned before,
the school bus in
22
picture
No.
5 was not new to the site.
It was
23
purchased November
16,
1990,
and picture
No.
6
24
again mentions
the plastic which was the result
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
24
1
of the business.
It was again car parts.
2
Picture No.
7 mentions lumber and the
3
combine.
The combine was also purchased during
4
the time that the business was in operation.
S
The lumber was the remainder of pallets and such
6
that parts and things were stored on that had
7
been broken up.
You know,
of course you have
8
some breakage
of storage areas and stuff like
9
that,
so the lumber was not like we tore down a
10
house and hauled lumber in and dumped it there.
11
It was just left over from the conduct of the
12
business.
13
Picture No.
8
shows tractor truck and
14
mentions lumber again.
Again,
the lumber was
15
just
some more broken pallets and things
like
16
that.
The tractor and truck both run and
17
operate.
The tractor,
I moved it inside the one
18
building now,
and the truck
is operational,
it
19
works.
20
Picture No.
9,
tires on axles
is still
21
just the remainder
of the salvage business.
22
Things that had not been removed yet.
23
Picture No.
10 shows abandoned vehicles.
24
These are not abandoned vehicles.
I have titles
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
25
1
for every one of them.
They were again just
2
items that had not been removed yet.
We are in
3
the process of doing that.
4
Picture No.
11 showed cardboard,
rusted
s
pipe,
and gas lanterns.
These was just left
6
over from conducting business and as
I mentioned
7
earlier,
the gas lanterns were not gas lanterns,
8
they were sealed units.
9
The tractor tires
off rims in picture
12
10
that were mentioned,
those were some spare tires
ii
that
I had from one tractor loader that
I had.
12
They were not scrap, you know.
They were tires
13
that
I was saving in case
I needed them.
14
No.
13,
tires and auto parts
--
oh,
that
15
is inside the shed.
That is just the remainder
16
of some of the things that had been stored.
As
17
I mentioned,
the building on the other
side was
18
cleaned out completely to the floor.
There was
19
no mention of that.
This building
that the
20
picture was taken in has like five bays,
I
21
think,
five sections.
The picture was taken on
22
the one end and it makes
it look real bad.
I
23
mean, you look in there and it looks bad but the
24
last two bays on that side had been cleaned out
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
26
1
and you can’t really tell
it from the picture
so
2
we were working our way from the west end to the
3
east end and that’s the end that we hadn’t
4
gotten to yet.
So,
we,
you know,
we was just in
s
the process of getting to all of that.
6
Since
the tires as
I mentioned have all
7
been removed now and our focus has been able
to
8
move towards the metal parts now,
much of the
9
problems that are mentioned have been taken care
10
of.
There
is still
some
of the stuff in the
ii
shed.
We’ve gotten probably
at least half of
12
the things
in that picture inside the shed
13
removed.
All
of the cars are gone.
The oil and
14
all the parts and plastic and glass and all of
15
that stuff have been removed.
16
It was said in one place
in the letter
17
that
I was operating
a landfill without proper
18
permits.
I looked up landfill and the
19
definition
of a landfill
is the layering of
20
scrap or litter,
waste,
however you want to word
21
it, with layers of dirt and I’m doing nothing
22
like that
at all.
All of these things was just
23
what was generated.
You can go
into any salvage
24
yard in the state of Illinois and you would find
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
27
1
these same things.
The only difference
is they
2
are still
in operation and
I am not and I’m
3
doing the best
I can to take care of that.
As
I
4
said,
I am driving a truck full-time so I’m
s
doing the best
I can.
6
The fine that has been imposed on me
I
7
think is unfair.
I kind of look at it as if
8
you’ve got a child that
is doing the very best
9
they can in school and they are bringing home
10
B’s and you take things away from him because
11
they are not getting A’s.
If a child is doing
12
the best that they can,
the B is the best they
13
are able to do,
then,
you know,
you try to work
14
with
that.
I’m doing the best that
I can.
We
15
are making progress.
We’ve made progress ever
16
since we started.
The weather condition,
there
17
is so many things that goes into
it.
It has
18
been raining a lot here lately so that slowed us
19
down some.
We are making good progress.
And if
20
this fine
is upheld,
it’s
just going to be
21
monies that
I won’t have available
to do more of
22
the cleanup process.
It’s going to stretch
it
23
out even further,
make
it longer, make
it harder
24
on me to do.
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
28
1
Most
of the savings that I’ve been able to
2
accumulate over the past several years,
I’ve
3
used it all up on getting rid of the tires.
4
That took everything
I had in savings,
so all
I
s
have now is just what
is left over after paying
6
the weekly and monthly bills right now because
7
I’ve depleted everything that
I had saved just
8
to get rid of
--
get
to the point where
I
am
9
right
now.
10
The one question that
I did have that you
11
wouldn’t allow it to be answered,
I don’t know
12
if it’s even necessary to go into that but
I was
13
just wanting to find out because whenever we
14
first started,
the price was terrible on metal.
15
Car bodies were worthless
and
I asked Miss Mier
16
at that time,
I would like to keep these cars
17
for a year and wait to get rid of them.
I’m
18
sure the price will bounce back after,
you know,
19
a while and she told me that they had to go.
20
Well,
it’s been now,
what,
13 months,
I believe
21
I
said,
and the prices now are higher than
22
they’ve been since I’ve been in business
for
18
23
years and
I could have made a lot of money, you
24
know,
in comparison
to what
I was able
to.
That
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
29
1
is why
I asked that question because
I just
2
didn’t realize they had that authority to force
3
you to go against
a business decision that you
4
felt was,
you know,
proper and right.
s
I do have some pictures
if you would like
6
to see them of some of the same areas and the
7
progress that has been made.
8
HEARING OFFICER:
Sure.
If you would like
9
to show Miss Ryan first.
10
MR.
CARRICO:
This
is inside the building.
11
This
is out back where the abandoned cars were.
12
You didn’t take pictures of this area but that
13
was an area that
is cleaned up.
14
MS.
MIER:
Is this the road to your
15
mother’s house here?
16
MR.
CARRICO:
Yes.
It had been filled
17
with a bunch of stuff.
This
is the other
shed
18
which now has a bunch of new equipment.
Those
19
are the first few bays that were cleaned out
20
when you were there before.
That
is the truck
21
bed.
I’ve been trying to fill
in some little
22
holes and stuff with the water holes.
23
HEARING OFFICER:
Mr.
Carrico,
I’m not
24
sure
if the reporter got all of that.
I know
I
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
30
1
didn’t hear it.
Would you like to state again
2
for the record what these photos are?
If you
3
want,
you can stand right here and we can go
4
through them.
5
MR.
CARRICO:
Okay.
This
is what was said
6
to be a roll-off bed.
It’s just a truck bed.
7
And there was a bunch of mud holes in here.
I’m
8
trying to fill those
in.
It’s been so muddy,
9
I’m having trouble doing
that.
This is the
10
first two bays that
I was talking about that
11
were clean that you couldn’t see from that
12
picture that was taken from this angle.
That
is
13
cleaned out.
14
That
is the one tractor that was out back.
is
I’ve moved
it inside the shed now.
This
is the
16
shed that there was no picture taken of that was
17
cleaned out and
I have now put
a bunch of the
18
equipment
that was outside.
19
Here
is a truck and a snowplow that
I had
20
and various things.
This
is a picture that
21
wasn’t taken.
This was at the prior inspection.
22
There was hundreds of parts and everything
23
there.
It’s been removed.
That was removed and
24
this
is one of the areas where
it was said there
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
31
1
was little change and this had been changed
2
since the prior inspection.
This
is around back
3
where what was said to be abandoned cars.
It’s
4
gone now.
There
is some other equipment
that
I
S
still have sitting there.
6
This
is by the car crusher where there was
7
a pile of glass and plastic off of the cars and
8
the oil and over here there was another picture
9
taken that was right here actually and that
10
there was a pile there,
too,
that
is gone.
That
11
has all been cleaned up and taken care
of.
12
And then this
is the inside of the shed
13
which we are still working on but as you can
14
see,
there
is considerable amount of
--
15
HEARING OFFICER:
So if
I can summarize,
16
these
are pictures
that show parts of the
17
property that have been clean.
Are any of these
18
photos of any of the identical locations that
19
are in this Exhibit
1?
20
MR.
CARRICO:
Yes.
Would you like me to
21
point them out?
22
HEARING OFFICER:
Well,
are you planning
23
--
are you going
to be offering these
as
24
exhibits
or did you just want to
--
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
32
1
MR.
CARRICO:
I was just going to show
2
them to you.
3
HEARING OFFICER:
Okay.
4
MR.
CARRICO:
If it would be helpful,
I
S
can.
6
HEARING OFFICER:
Do you have any
--
do
7
you know when these photos were taken?
8
MR.
CARRICO:
Last night.
9
HEARING OFFICER:
Oh,
they were just taken
10
last night?
11
MR.
CARRICO:
I rode around last night.
12
HEARING OFFICER:
You took all of these
13
yourself
last night?
14
MR.
CARRICO:
Yeah.
I knew
I was going to
15
be coming up so
I wanted to bring those with me
16
to show you what we’ve been doing.
17
MS.
RYAN:
I’m going to object that they
18
are irrelevant because they don’t really reflect
19
the condition of the property on the date in
20
question,
but
--
21
HEARING OFFICER:
I am going to sustain
22
Miss Ryan’s objection because this proceeding
23
only involves
the property as of the date of the
24
inspection
but
I appreciate you showing them to
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
33
1
me and, you know,
it will be in the record.
2
MR.
CARRICO:
But like
I
said,
all of the
3
things that were there were there legally
4
because
I was licensed at the time that they
s
were placed there.
After
I relinquished my
6
license
--
7
HEARING OFFICER:
When did you relinquish
8
your license?
9
MR.
CARRICO:
I can’t remember the exact
10
date but
it was
--
11
HEARING OFFICER:
Approximately.
12
MR.
CARRICO:
It would have been,
I would
13
think, around July,
August of 2002.
14
HEARING OFFICER:
Okay.
Do you have
is
anything further that you would like to say?
16
MR.
CARRICO:
Well,
just that there was
17
nothing else added after
I went out of business.
18
I stopped taking things and then we started
19
removing things.
20
HEARING OFFICER:
So that would have been
21
July or August of 2002?
22
MR.
CARRICO:
Yeah.
There was never
23
anything added.
The statements
that she made
24
makes
it sound like we were continually adding
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
34
1
to it and dumping
there.
We were not.
We were
2
taking things away.
3
HEARING OFFICER:
Okay.
Miss
Ryan,
do you
4
have any questions
for Mr.
Carrico?
S
MS.
RYAN:
I do.
6
CROSS EXAMINATION
7
By
8
MS. MICHELLE M.
RYAN
9
Q.
Did you stop operating the property prior
io
to the time you relinquished your license?
11
A.
I
was still operating on weekends.
I
12
didn’t realize
at the time that you couldn’t do
13
that.
14
Q.
Okay.
You mentioned that the tractors
15
and the trucks on the property were operational.
16
What about
the school bus and the cars that were
17
labeled abandoned in here?
18
A.
They were a product of conducting
19
business.
20
Q.
Were they operational was my question?
21
A.
The
school
bus
was
not
operational.
It
22
was salvage.
I have title
for
it,
too,
so it
23
wasn’t abandoned.
24
Q.
And the cars,
were they operational?
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
35
1
A.
No,
they were not operational.
They
2
also had titles on those.
3
Q.
And you said you started removing
4
material in July or August of 2002 when you
s
relinquished your license,
is that right?
6
A.
Yes.
7
Q.
In
fact,
you
had
several
extensions
to
8
the Illinois
EPA to complete your cleanup,
is
9
that right?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
As of October
28,
2003,
you
still
had
not
12
completed the cleanup?
13
A.
That’s
correct.
14
Q.
You mentioned that Miss Mier seemed to be
15
primarily
focused on the tires?
16
A.
Right.
17
Q.
Did she ever tell
you that you
didn’t
18
have to remove
the other waste that
was on your
19
property?
20
A.
No,
she never
told me
I
didn’t have to
21
but
her questions were always focused on the
22
tires.
How is the tire removal
coming.
23
Q.
In fact,
on October
28,
2003,
there were
24
still
tires
on the property that hadn’t been
JO
ELAINE
FOSTER
&
ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
36
1
properly disposed,
is that correct?
2
A.
There was
a few,
yes.
Some of the tires
3
were not waste
tires,
some of them were,
if you
4
want me to get into
it,
derby car tires.
S
Q.
They were all used tires,
is that right?
6
A.
Used tires,
yes.
Some of them that were
7
still there
in the inspection
were not waste
8
tires.
Many of them
I should
say.
The majority
9
of them were not waste
tires
that were still
10
remaining.
11
MS.
RYAN:
That’s all
I
have.
12
HEARING
OFFICER:
Okay.
Mr.
Carrico,
if
13
you have nothing further you’d
like to
say,
then
14
you may step down.
We will go of
f
the
record
15
for
a few minutes.
16
MS.
RYAN:
I was going
to ask to recall
17
Jan in rebuttal
to some of the information
I was
18
given.
19
JAN MIER
20
Called
as
a witness,
being previously
sworn,
21
testified
further
as follows:
22
DIRECT EXAMINATION
23
By
24
MS. MICHELLE
M. RYAN
JO
ELAINE
FOSTER
&
ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
37
1
Q.
Miss Mier,
I’m going to show you what
2
I’ll mark
as Exhibit
2.
Can you tell
me,
do you
3
recognize that document?
4
A.
Yes,
I
do.
S
Q.
What
is it?
6
A.
It’s the first
letter that we had sent to
7
Mr. Carrico
after my first
inspection.
It’s
8
called
a non
compliance advisory letter.
9
Q.
Can you page through
it for me, please?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
Is
that
a fair,
accurate,
and complete
12
copy of the non
compliance advisory that was
13
sent to Mr.
Carrico?
14
A.
Yes.
is
Q.
Why did you send this letter?
16
A.
This
is a letter that we send when we
17
hope the violations
will be cleared up fairly
18
soon and that will be the end of
it.
19
Q.
And this letter was sent
--
20
A.
It was dated July 24,
2002.
21
Q.
Which would have been after your initial
22
inspection
of the property?
23
A.
Right.
24
Q.
Does that Exhibit
2
contain
a deadline
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
38
1
for removing the waste from the property?
2
A.
Yes,
September
30,
2002.
3
Q.
I’ll show you what I’ve marked as Exhibit
4
3.
Can you tell me if you recognize
that
s
document?
6
A.
Yes,
I do.
It’s
a violation notice that
7
we had sent to Mr.
Carrico dated January
14,
8
2003.
9
Q.
Can you page through
it for me,
please.
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
Is it a fair,
accurate,
and complete copy
12
of the violation notice that you sent to Mr.
13
Carrico?
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
Why did you send this notice?
16
A.
Because there were still outstanding
17
violations after the deadline that was given to
18
him in the non compliance advisory letter.
19
Q.
Does this notice contain a new deadline?
20
A.
Yes,
it does.
21
Q.
Can you find that for me?
22
A.
It was until
February
28.
23
Q.
Of what year?
24
A.
2003.
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
39
1
HEARING OFFICER:
What page is that?
2
A.
It’s under suggested resolutions next to
3
the last page.
Then we gave him until March
7
4
to submit copies of receipts that document
the
5
proper disposal or recycling
of the waste.
6
Q.
Now I’m going to show you Exhibit
4.
Can
7
you tell me if you recognize that document?
8
A.
Yes,
I do.
9
Q.
What
is that?
10
A.
This is called a compliance commitment
11
agreement.
When they respond to the violation
12
notice under Section 31 of the act,
we have to
13
accept or deny the agreement
that they’ve
14
proposed in terms of resolving the violations.
15
Q.
So,
this letter accepts the agreement
16
proposed by Mr.
Carrico to achieve compliance
at
17
the facility?
18
A.
Yes,
it accepts
it and gives
it another
19
extension.
20
Q.
What
is the deadline in this
letter?
21
A.
April
15,
2003.
22
Q.
Can you page through this one yet
for me,
23
please?
24
A.
Yes,
I
did.
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
40
1
Q.
Okay.
Did
I ask you if it’s a fair,
2
accurate,
and complete copy of the letter that
3
you sent?
4
A.
Yes,
it
is.
s
Q.
I’ll
show you what I’ve marked as Exhibit
6
5.
Can
you
tell
me
if you recognize that
7
document?
8
A.
Yes.
This
is
a
letter
we
sent
to
Mr.
9
Carrico dated June
12,
2003.
10
Q.
And is that a fair,
accurate,
and
11
complete copy of that letter?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
Why did you send this letter?
14
A.
It was an extension letter granting him a
15
new extension to the deadline date for resolving
16
the violations.
17
Q.
And what was the deadline in this letter?
18
A.
July
1,
2003.
19
Q.
And does this letter contain any
20
additional
information regarding penalties or
21
potential enforcement?
22
A.
Well,
the sentence
of if final
cleanup is
23
not completed by July
1,
enforcement action
24
including monetary penalties may result.
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
41
1
Q.
I’ll show you what
I’ve marked as Exhibit
2
6.
Do you recognize
that document?
3
A.
Yes.
This
is a letter sent to Mr.
4
Carrico dated July
9,
2003.
S
Q.
Is it a fair,
accurate,
and complete copy
6
of the letter that you sent to him?
7
A.
Yes,
it
is.
8
Q.
Why did you send this letter?
9
A.
We gave him a new compliance
deadline of
10
September
30,
2003.
I would also like to add
11
that we also removed 1,000 tires for Mr.
Carrico
12
under
a consent to removal agreement
at no cost
13
to him.
That
is something the tire program
14
does.
15
Q.
When did that removal take place?
16
A.
I
think,
I’m not sure,
I think about
the
17
end
of
2003.
I would have
to consult my file to
18
get the exact date on that.
19
Q.
But it was after your initial
inspection?
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
After you had sent him at least one of
22
these letters?
23
A.
Right.
And the first
--
or in the
24
violation notice
--
I’m sorry,
in the non
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
42
1
compliance advisory letter,
Exhibit
2,
to
2
correct the apparent violations,
No.
2 says that
3
you
can
get
rid
of
them
or
that
you
can
sign
a
4
consent
to
removal
agreement
and
the
EPA
will
5
remove a thousand tires at no cost to the
6
respondent.
7
Q.
As
you
say,
Mr.
Carrico
took
advantage
of
8
that offer?
9
A.
Yes.
10
MS.
RYAN:
That’s all
I have.
11
HEARING OFFICER:
Thank you.
Mr.
Carrico,
12
would you like
to ask the witness any questions?
13
MR.
CARRICO:
Well,
it’s going to be kind
14
of hard going over this right quick.
15
CROSS EXAMINATION
16
By
17
MR.
DOUGLAS CARRICO
18
Q.
In
the
Exhibit
2
which
is
dated
July
24,
19
2002,
which
was
when
we pretty much first
20
started,
on page
2,
one of the last statements
21
made says EPA may issue a formal violation
22
notice.
And what I’m trying to get to by that
23
is,
every letter that I’ve ever gotten from you
24
has said something like that or that there would
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
43
1
be
--
or that there may be legal action taken
2
which
is mentioned in some of these other ones.
3
So, even though it was taking more time than
4
anticipated,
I assumed
this to be
kind of a form
s
letter,
something that you put in every letter
6
and so
I didn’t expect to have this happen.
7
Let me look at this real quick.
In the
8
suggested resolutions
on Exhibit
3,
this seems
9
to show my read of the situation
in that the
10
tires were the focus because
the suggested
11
resolution
deals with the tires
in this
--
12
HEARING OFFICER:
Mr.
Carrico,
do you have
13
any questions?
14
Q.
Being
that the suggested resolutions
in
15
Exhibit
3 deals
with the tires, would you say
16
that your focus was on tires?
17
A.
Well,
No.
2 states that submit to
18
Illinois
a copy of receipts
and manifest
that
19
document proper
disposal
or recycling of the
20
wastes.
So,
that also includes the litter.
The
21
emphasis on tires was because of the West Nile
22
and mosquito breeding abilities that they have.
23
Q.
So,
it would have been
--
24
A.
But that
did not mean that the other
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
44
1
waste
--
2
Q.
Didn’t need
to go?
3
A.
Right.
4
Q.
I understand
that.
But would you say
S
that your preference would have been the tires
6
go first?
7
A.
Yes.
8
Q.
On June
12,
I might point
out again it
9
talks about
the enforcement action,
that
is
10
Exhibit
5,
which was in most all of the letters;
11
therefore,
I wasn’t necessarily expecting
it.
12
HEARING OFFICER:
Mr.
Carrico,
I’ll let
13
you make another statement when she’s done but
14
right
now,
this
is your opportunity to ask her
15
--
if you don’t have any questions
for her,
she
16
can step down and you can take the stand and
17
readdress
some
of the new issues that arose
18
since you stepped down.
19
MR.
CARRICO:
That’s all
I can really do.
20
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
21
By
22
MS. MICHELLE
M. RYAN
23
Q.
I do have one more question that
I had
24
forgotten
to ask.
Miss Mier,
did the EPA ever
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
45
1
give Mr.
Carrico two years to remove any of the
2
waste off the property like he testified?
3
A.
No.
4
MS.
RYAN:
I would also move Exhibits
2
s
through
6 into evidence.
I had forgotten to do
6
that as well.
7
HEARING OFFICER:
Any objection,
Mr.
8
Carrico?
9
MR.
CARRICO:
No.
10
HEARING OFFICER:
Okay.
Exhibits
2
11
through
6 are admitted into evidence.
You may
12
step down.
13
Now,
Mr.
Carrico,
I’m
allowing
you
to
come
14
back
up
to
address
Exhibits
2
through
6.
So,
15
I’ll give you
a minute to collect your thoughts
16
but I’d like
to limit your testimony to those
17
exhibits.
18
MR.
CARRICO:
I guess
I don’t have any
19
questions
on that stuff.
One of the last
20
questions
that she asked or
I might address
21
that.
22
HEARING OFFICER:
Okay.
You’re still
23
under oath,
I’ll remind you.
24
MR.
CARRICO:
Under the tire removal
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
46
1
agreement
requirements,
I don’t know how you
2
would say this,
but
--
3
HEARING OFFICER:
I’m sorry,
what are you
4
looking at?
S
MR.
CARRICO:
The
tire
removal
agreement
6
that was given to me by the EPA.
Requirements,
7
tire removal agreement requirements.
8
HEARING OFFICER:
This is not an exhibit.
9
MR.
CARRICO:
Not yet unless you want
it
10
to be after
I’m done.
35 IAC-Section 848.504
11
states if the site contains more than 1,000
12
tires but less than 10,000 tires.
Then letter
13
B,
the owner or operator may apply for an
14
extension of time no more than
90
days.
It goes
15
on from there.
But,
anyway,
she asked her about
16
the two years.
If the EPA ever gave me two
17
years which they didn’t in a letter didn’t say
18
you have two years but in their own paperwork
19
that they gave me it did state that
a site
20
containing more than a thousand tires
is allowed
21
two years to remove them and
I did it in
13
22
months.
I mean,
I didn’t wait for the two year
23
time period to be over.
But just to clear that
24
up.
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
47
1
It
may
have
been
a
misunderstanding
on
my
2
part
or,
you know,
just the ignorance on my part
3
of
how
they
do
things
but
it
was
just
my
4
assumption and from the letters
I got,
it always
5
seemed
that
the
focus
was
on
the
tires
and
so
6
that’s why
I was working my hardest on that,
7
letting
the
other
things
slide.
8
If
I would have worked on everything
at
9
the
same
rate,
there
would
still
be
tires
there
10
now
and
there
would
maybe
be
less
metal
parts
11
and things, but there would still be tires.
I
12
mean,
I
can
only
do
so
much
and
I’m
not
dragging
13
my
feet.
I’ve
never
said
no,
I’m
not
going
to
14
do
that.
I’ve
never
smarted
off
to
her.
I’ve
is
never
been
disrespectful
to
her.
I’ve
always
16
tried
to
cooperate
and
do
my
best
and
I
just
17
feel
that
this
is
very
unfair
to
impose
a
fine
18
on
me
for
doing
the
best
that
I
can.
As
I
said,
19
we
are
going
to
continue
until
it’s
done.
We
20
are going to finish.
We are not planning on
21
stopping,
never have,
but
I can only do what
I
22
can
do
and
that’s
all
I
have.
23
HEARING
OFFICER:
Okay.
Miss
Ryan?
24
MS.
RYAN:
Can
I
see
a
copy
of
that,
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
48
1
please?
2
CROSS
EXAMINATION
3
By
4
MS. MICHELLE
N. RYAN
5
Q.
Where did you say you obtained this?
6
A.
That was sent with the
--
actually
I got
7
that more than once.
They sent that to me,
the
8
EPA did,
in some of the letters that
I received
9
from them.
10
Q.
This
is a description of the statute and
ii
the regulations relating
to tire removal
12
agreements?
13
A.
That
is what
I assumed that
it was,
yeah.
14
Q.
In fact,
you did not sign a tire removal
15
agreement with the Illinois
EPA,
did you?
16
A.
Yes,
I did.
17
Q.
In fact,
you signed a consent to removal
18
where the EPA agreed to clean up a thousand
19
tires at no cost but you did not sign a tire
20
removal agreement where you agreed to clean up
21
the tires by a certain deadline?
22
A.
No, not that
I can recall.
I
felt that
23
that
consensual
--
what you called a consensual,
24
I thought that was the tire agreement.
I didn’t
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
49
1
realize that
is not what that
was.
2
Q.
But you did receive the other documents
3
that we introduced
into evidence,
Exhibits
2
4
through
6,
indicating
the deadlines
for all of
5
them?
6
A.
Yes.
7
MS.
RYAN:
Thank you.
8
MR.
CARRICO:
As
I said,
they were kind of
9
form letters and they all said the same thing,
10
so
I was assuming that since they had worked
ii
with me,
they would continue
to work with me.
12
didn’t realize that it was
--
13
HEARING OFFICER:
Can
I
see that?
14
MR.
CARRICO:
That was the consensual
tire
15
agreement,
is that what you call it?
I think
16
that was stapled to that whenever
I received
17
that and
I have a copy of that with me,
too.
18
HEARING OFFICER:
Did you want to
19
introduce
this
as an exhibit?
20
MR.
CARRICO:
Yeah,
I can.
I have another
21
one of those,
too,
so that
is fine.
I mean,
22
I’ll have
a copy for myself,
too,
if you want to
23
keep that one.
24
HEARING OFFICER:
Do you have a copy or
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
50
1
would you need me to sent one?
2
MR.
CARRICO:
I do have one because that
3
was sent to me more than once.
4
HEARING OFFICER:
Do you have any
5
objection?
6
MS.
RYAN:
I’m a bit concerned because I’m
7
not exactly clear on when this allegedly was
8
sent to him and there
is no date on it and there
9
is no
--
I can’t verify the foundation of the
10
thing is my problem.
11
HEARING OFFICER:
If you have any idea
12
when this was sent to you?
13
MR.
CARRICO:
I’m pretty sure this was
14
stapled to the original but this
is dated
15
8/8/02.
16
HEARING OFFICER:
Truthfully,
I don’t know
17
that we really need this document,
Mr.
Carrico.
18
It’s just
a summary of the board or the
19
environmental
regulations which the board has
20
and really,
all it does is summarize section
21
55D2
of the act,
35 IAC 848.502,
848.503,
22
848.504,
505,
506,
507,
508,
509
which
the
board
23
would already have that information.
24
MR.
CARRICO:
I have another one right
JO
ELAINE
FOSTER
&
ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
51
1
here.
2
HEARING OFFICER:
I don’t think that
3
really
is
terribly
relevant
or
necessary
to
4
admit that as an exhibit.
S
MR.
CARRICO:
But it was sent to me by the
6
EPA.
7
HEARING OFFICER:
Okay.
You’re done,
yes?
8
Miss Ryan,
do you have anything further?
9
MS.
RYAN:
No,
thank you.
10
HEARING OFFICER:
Off the record for a
11
minute to discuss briefing.
12
(A discussion was held off
the record.)
13
HEARING OFFICER:
We’ve
just had an off
14
the record discussion regarding post hearing
15
briefs and the parties have agreed to a briefing
16
schedule
as follows:
First,
the transcript
of
17
these proceedings will be available
from the
18
Reporter by April
19,
2004,
and will be posted
19
on the board’s website shortly thereafter.
The
20
public comment deadline will be May
3,
2004.
21
Any public comment must be filed in accordance
22
with Section 101.628 of the board’s procedural
23
rules.
Complainant’s brief
is due May
3,
2004;
24
respondent’s
brief
is due June
1,
the mail box
JO ELAINE FOSTER
& ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
52
1
rule will apply; and complainant’s reply
if any
2
is
due
June
15.
Miss
Ryan,
would
you
like
to
3
make a closing argument?
4
MS.
RYAN:
No,
I would like to reserve
s
that for my brief.
6
HEARING OFFICER:
Mr.
Carrico,
would you
7
like
to
make
any
closing
argument?
8
MR.
CARRICO:
No,
ma’am.
9
HEARING OFFICER:
Since there
are no
10
members
of the public here,
I will proceed to
ii
make
a statement
as to the credibility of
12
witnesses
testifying during this hearing.
13
Based on my legal judgment and experience,
14
I find both of the witnesses testifying
to be
15
credible.
At
this
time,
I will conclude the
16
proceedings.
I thank all of you for your
17
participation
and we stand adjourned.
18
HEARING ADJOURNED:
19
20
21
22
23
24
JO
ELAINE
FOSTER
&
ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660
53
1
STATE
OF
ILLINOIS
)
SS.
2
COUNTY OF WASHINGTON)
3
4
I,
KIMBERLY
A.
GANZ,
Lic.
No.
084-
S
1691,
a
Certified
Shorthand
Reporter
in
and
for
6
the County of Washington,
State of Illinois,
DO
7
HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing transcript was
8
taken
down
in
shorthand
by
me
and
afterwards
9
transcribed under my direction by computer
10
transcription
and
said
transcript
is
herewith
11
returned.
12
IN
WITNESS WHEREOF,
I
have hereunto
13
set my hand and affixed my Seal this
13th day of
14
April,
2004.
15
/
C
18
Certified Shorthand Reporter
19
20
21
22
23
24
JO
ELAINE
FOSTER
&
ASSOCIATES,
P.C.
(618)
877-7016
F:
(618)
655-0660

Back to top