1
    1
    BEFORE THE ILLINOIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD
    2
    April 1, 2004
    3
    4
    5
    IN THE MATTER OF:
    )
    6
    )
    REVISIONS TO RADIUM WATER
    )R04-21
    7 QUALITY STANDARDS: PROPOSED )Rulemaking - Water
    NEW ILL. ADM. CODE 302.307
    )
    8 and AMENDMENTS TO 35 ILL. ADM. )
    CODE 302.207 and 302.525
    )
    9
    10
    11
    12
    13
    14
    TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS held in the
    15 hearing of the above-entitled matter, taken
    16 stenographically by Julia A. Bauer, CSR, before Amy
    17 C. Antoniolli, Hearing Officer, at James R. Thompson
    18 Center, 100 West Randolph Street, Room 8-033,
    19 Chicago, Illinois, on the 1st of April, A.D., 2004,
    20 at the hour of 1:30 p.m.
    21
    22
    23
    24

    2
    1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
    2
    ILLINOIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD,
    3
    JAMES R. THOMPSON CENTER
    100 West Randolph Street
    4
    Suite 11-500
    Chicago, Illinois 60601
    5
    (312) 814 - 3956
    BY: MS. AMY C. ANTONIOLLI, Hearing Officer
    6
    MR. NICHOLAS J. MELAS, Board Member
    MR. ANAND RAO, Board Member
    7
    MS. ALISA LIU, P.E., Board Member
    8
    ILLINOIS ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY,
    9
    1021 North Grand Avenue
    East P.O. Box 19276
    10
    Springfield, Illinois 62794-9276
    (217) 782 - 5544
    11
    BY: MS. DEBORAH J. WILLIAMS, Assistant Counsel
    12
    ALSO PRESENT: ABDUL KHALIQUE, Metropolitan
    13
    Water Reclamation District of
    Greater Chicago;
    14
    MARGARET MCEVILLY, City of
    15
    Joliet;
    16
    SUSAN HEDMAN, DCEO;
    17
    JERRY KUHN, the Agency
    ROBERT MOSHER, the Agency
    18
    BLAINE KINSLEY, the Agency
    19
    20
    21
    22
    23
    24

    3
    1
    HEARING OFFICER: Good afternoon my
    2
    name is Amy Antoniolli, and I'm the hearing
    3
    officer assigned to this proceeding,
    4
    entitled, In The Matter of Revisions to
    5
    Radium Water Quality Standards: Proposed New
    6
    Illinois Administrative Code 302.207 and
    7
    Amendments to 35 Illinois Administrative Code
    8
    302.207 and 304.525.
    9
    Right now it is about
    10
    1:30, and we are going to go off the record
    11
    again here in a few minutes and wait for the
    12
    Agency attorney to arrive, as well as the
    13
    three witnesses who will testify today.
    14
    (Whereupon, a discussion
    15
    was had off the record.)
    16
    HEARING OFFICER: Okay. We're back on
    17
    the record, and right now it is 2:06 in the
    18
    afternoon. Again, my name is Amy Antoniolli,
    19
    and I've been appointed hearing officer for
    20
    this rulemaking proceeding, entitled -- and
    21
    I'm going to change the name -- or read the
    22
    caption again into the record to correct it,
    23
    because I initially read the caption and it
    24
    was wrong. So it's, In the Matter of

    4
    1
    Revisions to Radium Water Quality Standards
    2
    Proposed New Illinois Administrative Code
    3
    302.307 and Amendments 235 Illinois
    4
    Administrative Code 302.207 and 302.525,
    5
    which the Board has docketed as R04-21.
    6
    In this proceeding, the
    7
    Agency is seeking to amend at the Board of
    8
    Water Quality Standards, and this rule making
    9
    was filed on January 13th, 2004, by the
    10
    Illinois Environmental Protection Agency.
    11
    Today is the first of two scheduled hearings
    12
    in this matter. The second hearing will take
    13
    place on May 6th, 2003, starting at 2:30 in
    14
    the afternoon in the Board's office in
    15
    Springfield.
    16
    To my right is member,
    17
    Nick Melas, the board member assigned to this
    18
    matter, and also present from the board today
    19
    are two members of our technical unit, Anand
    20
    Rao and Alisa Liu.
    21
    MR. RAO: Good afternoon.
    22
    HEARING OFFICER: Today's hearing is
    23
    governed by the Board's procedural rules for
    24
    regulatory proceedings. All information

    5
    1
    that's relevant and not repetitious or
    2
    privileged will be entered into the record.
    3
    All witnesses will be sworn and subject to
    4
    cross questioning.
    5
    There are three people
    6
    who will be testifying on behalf of the
    7
    Agency today, Mr. Jerry Kuhn, Mr. Robert
    8
    Mosher and Mr. Blaine Kinsley. If the
    9
    pre-filed testimony is not lengthy, we'll
    10
    have the testimony read into the record; or
    11
    if they so wish, they can make a brief
    12
    summary of their testimony, and then we can
    13
    enter in the pre-filed testimony as an
    14
    exhibit.
    15
    We'll allow all of the
    16
    witnesses to testify first, and then we'll
    17
    allow questions to be asked after. When we
    18
    get to the questioning period, anyone can ask
    19
    a question. If you do ask a question, state
    20
    your name and who you represent before you
    21
    begin your questions. We will also allow
    22
    anyone who wishes to testify the opportunity
    23
    to do so at the close of the pre-filed
    24
    testimony. And for the court reporter please

    6
    1
    speak up and try not to speak over each
    2
    other, so the transcript is clear. Please
    3
    note that any questions asked by Member Melas
    4
    or the staff are intended to help build the
    5
    complete record for those members of our
    6
    staff who can't be here today, and not to
    7
    express any preconceived notion or bias.
    8
    So at the side of the
    9
    room I've also brought today current copies
    10
    of the current service list and notice list.
    11
    There's a copy of the board order accepting
    12
    this rulemaking for hearing. There's a copy
    13
    of the notice of hearings, the Agency's
    14
    statement of reasons and also the pre-filed
    15
    testimony. So at this time, Member Melas,
    16
    would you like to add anything?
    17
    MR. MELAS: No. I'm glad that you all
    18
    got here safe and sound.
    19
    HEARING OFFICER: Okay. So at this
    20
    point we'll turn it over to the Agency's
    21
    attorney, Ms. Deborah Williams, for an
    22
    opening statement, if you have any.
    23
    MS. WILLIAMS: Good afternoon. My
    24
    name is Deborah Williams, and I'm an

    7
    1
    assistant counsel for the Bureau of Water
    2
    with Illinois EPA. I am representing the
    3
    Agency today in support of its rulemaking
    4
    proposal, which was just identified. The
    5
    caption was read. I won't read the whole
    6
    caption back again by the hearing officer,
    7
    but this proposal amends the existing radium
    8
    water quality standards.
    9
    On behalf of the
    10
    director, I'd like to thank the Board for its
    11
    consideration of this rulemaking proposal and
    12
    this opportunity to provide testimony and
    13
    support thereof. I have with me today, three
    14
    experienced staffs from the Bureau of Water
    15
    to present their testimony. All three have
    16
    submitted pre-file testimony to the Board,
    17
    and all parties on the service list prior to
    18
    today's hearing and are prepared to read that
    19
    testimony into the record, if that's the
    20
    hearing officer's preference.
    21
    First, we will hear from
    22
    Jerry Kuhn, to my far left, who is the
    23
    manager of the permit section in the division
    24
    of public water supplies. We'll discuss the

    8
    1
    impetus of this proposal from the community
    2
    water supply perspective. Then we have Bob
    3
    Mosher of the standard section in the
    4
    division of water pollution control, who will
    5
    discuss the history of radium water quality
    6
    standards and the technical basis for the
    7
    proposed changes, and Bob is to my immediate
    8
    left. And in between Bob and Jerry is Blaine
    9
    Kinsley, who will also present testimony.
    10
    Blaine is with our industrial permit unit and
    11
    will discuss effectiveness of the existing
    12
    publically owned works treating radium.
    13
    Following the testimony of all the witnesses,
    14
    we'll be happy to answer any questions from
    15
    the board or public. So I'll turn it over to
    16
    Jerry now.
    17
    HEARING OFFICER: Before you begin,
    18
    we'll have the witnesses sworn in and then
    19
    we'll go ahead with the testimony. Would you
    20
    like to go ahead?
    21
    COURT REPORTER: Sure.
    22
    (Witness sworn.)
    23
    HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. You can
    24
    go ahead.

    9
    1
    MR. KUHN: My name is Jerry Kuhn. I
    2
    am the manager of Permit Section For the
    3
    Division of Public Water Supplies of the
    4
    Illinois Environmental Protection Agency and
    5
    have held that position since October of
    6
    2000. The permit section is responsible for
    7
    the review of construction permit
    8
    applications by community water supplies. A
    9
    construction permit is required by the
    10
    Illinois EPA for construction of any new
    11
    community water supply and for changes or
    12
    modifications to an existing community water
    13
    supply including water main extensions and
    14
    water treatment plant modifications. I've
    15
    worked for the Illinois EPA for approximately
    16
    21 years, including 11 years in the Division
    17
    of Water Pollution Control Permit Section and
    18
    eight years in the Bureau of Land as the RCRA
    19
    Unit Manager in the Permit Section. Prior to
    20
    my time at the Illinois EPA, I worked for a
    21
    consulting engineering firm.
    22
    COURT REPORTER: Excuse me. Can you
    23
    slow down a little bit. I'm so sorry. Just
    24
    a little bit.

    10
    1
    MR. KUHN: Okay. I received a
    2
    Bachelor of Science in Engineering Degree
    3
    from Bradley University in 1975 and a Master
    4
    of Science in Thermal and Environmental
    5
    Engineering Degree from Southern Illinois
    6
    University at Carbondale in 1985. I have
    7
    been an Illinois Licensed Professional
    8
    Engineer since 1980.
    9
    Today I will testify in
    10
    regards to the Illinois EPA's proposed
    11
    changes to the water quality standards for
    12
    radium and the proposal's impact on Illinois
    13
    of community water supply systems.
    14
    Regulations for radionuclides in drinking
    15
    water were first promulgated in 1976 as
    16
    interim regulations under the authority of
    17
    the Safe Drinking Water Act of 1974. The
    18
    standard was proposed for revision upward to
    19
    20 picocuries per liter in 1991, but
    20
    eventually it was determined that the
    21
    original 5 picocuries per liter should remain
    22
    the MCL standard. On December 7th, 2000,
    23
    U.S. EPA finalized revisions to the 1976
    24
    radionuclide regulations, which have since

    11
    1
    been adopted by the Illinois Pollution
    2
    Control Board. The Board's regulations were
    3
    finalized on October 4th, 2001, in rulemaking
    4
    docket R01-20. These regulations retained
    5
    the existing maximum containment level of 5
    6
    picocuries per liter for radium 226 and 228
    7
    combined and 15 picocuries per liter for
    8
    gross particle activity. The rule became
    9
    effective on December 8th, 2003.
    10
    Entities regulated by
    11
    this rule are public water systems that are
    12
    classified as community water systems.
    13
    Community water systems provide water for
    14
    human consumption through pipes or other
    15
    constructed conveyances to at least 15
    16
    service connections or serve an average of at
    17
    least 25 people year-round. Over 100
    18
    community water supplies in Illinois are
    19
    impacted by these regulations, due to the
    20
    presence of the radionuclides in their source
    21
    water used for drinking at concentrations
    22
    higher than the MCL. The radionuclides found
    23
    in Illinois groundwater wells are naturally
    24
    occurring and located primarily in deep

    12
    1
    bedrock aquifers.
    2
    Community water supplies that exceed the MCL
    3
    for radionuclides have three basic options to
    4
    lower their radium levels: Blend their water
    5
    with a source of water with no or low amounts
    6
    of radium to meet the MCL, acquire another
    7
    source for their drinking water with radium
    8
    below the MCA, or install treatment for their
    9
    source water.
    10
    Under the Safe Drinking
    11
    Water Act, U.S. EPA must specify best
    12
    available technologies for treatment of each
    13
    MCL. In regards to treatment for removal of
    14
    radionuclides, U.S. EPA considers ion
    15
    exchange, reverse osmosis and lime softening
    16
    to be the best available technology.
    17
    Additionally, small systems, those serving
    18
    less than 10,000 people, compliance
    19
    technologies include green sand filtration,
    20
    hydrous manganese oxide filtration and
    21
    enhanced coagulation filtration. All of
    22
    these radionuclide removal technologies
    23
    produce residual waste streams that must be
    24
    dealt with. Anywhere from 5 to 25 percent of

    13
    1
    the water obtained from well sources and
    2
    treated by one of the radium removal
    3
    technologies ends up as a wastewater
    4
    containing radionuclides removed from the
    5
    source water and discharged to the local
    6
    wastewater treatment plant. Depending on the
    7
    initial groundwater concentration, removal
    8
    efficiency in the wastewater treatment plant
    9
    and the dilution available in the receiving
    10
    stream, communities with radionuclides in the
    11
    source of their drinking water have or will
    12
    have, once they implement a radium removal
    13
    technology, a problem with violations of the
    14
    existing radium water quality standard as it
    15
    applies to most -- to most of the water of
    16
    the state.
    17
    It is my opinion that the
    18
    Agency's proposed changes to the Board's
    19
    water quality standards for radium will
    20
    assist community water supplies in coming
    21
    into compliance with the Safe Drinking Water
    22
    Act and prevent their efforts to reduce
    23
    radium in drinking water from becoming an
    24
    issue of non-compliance with surface water

    14
    1
    quality standards for publicly owned
    2
    treatment works while still protecting
    3
    surface water quality.
    4
    Finally, I would like to
    5
    thank the Board for the opportunity to submit
    6
    this pre-filed testimony and for its
    7
    consideration of the Agency's rulemaking
    8
    proposal.
    9
    MR. MOSHER: My name is Bob Mosher,
    10
    and I have been employed by the Illinois
    11
    Environmental Protection Agency for over 18
    12
    years with more than 16 years experience in
    13
    the Water Quality Standards Unit. I am an
    14
    aquatic biologist by training with a
    15
    specialization in stream ecology and
    16
    laboratory aquatic life toxicity studies.
    17
    Most recently I have been involved in the
    18
    development of water quality standards for
    19
    nutrients, radium and sulfates for eventual
    20
    adoption by the Illinois Pollution Control
    21
    Board as well as water quality standards
    22
    implementation support for the Permit and 401
    23
    Water Quality Certification Sections of the
    24
    Bureau of Water. I have a Bachelor of

    15
    1
    Science degree in environmental biology and
    2
    zoology from Eastern Illinois University and
    3
    a Master of Science degree in zoology also
    4
    from Eastern Illinois University. My
    5
    pre-filed testimony in this matter will
    6
    address the history and backgrounds of the
    7
    Board's current radium water quality
    8
    standards and the justification for the
    9
    Illinois EPA's proposed changes to those
    10
    standards.
    11
    Radium is a naturally
    12
    occurring radioactive metal that exists in
    13
    several isotopes. Radium forms when two
    14
    other radioactive metals, uranium and
    15
    thorium, decay. These substances are
    16
    naturally found in the rocks and therefore
    17
    radium is ubiquitous in the environment.
    18
    Radium is usually measured in picocuries per
    19
    liter. A picocurie is a very small amount of
    20
    radioactivity. One picocurie is associated
    21
    with about one trillionth of a gram of
    22
    radium. Radium 226 emits alpha radiation and
    23
    radium 228 emits beta radiation. The
    24
    half-life of radium 226 is 1,600 years while

    16
    1
    radium 228 has a half-life of 5.7 years.
    2
    There are two other natural isotopes of
    3
    radium that have half-lives of just a few
    4
    days.
    5
    Radium may exist in small
    6
    Illinois streams below sewage treatment
    7
    plants serving communities that utilize high
    8
    radium groundwater as drinking water at
    9
    levels exceeding the existing general use
    10
    water quality standard of 1 picocurie per
    11
    liter. Discharges to larger streams probably
    12
    receive sufficient dilution to meet the
    13
    standard. Recent stream concentrations
    14
    measured in the Fox River were under 1
    15
    picocurie per liter. The Fox River flows
    16
    through a region where many communities
    17
    depend on high radium groundwater,
    18
    illustrating that ambient river water is very
    19
    low in radium and that the overall effect of
    20
    dischargers is minor. The vast majority of
    21
    Illinois community water supply facilities
    22
    with high concentrations of radionuclides in
    23
    their source water, all groundwater, are
    24
    located in the northern half of the state and

    17
    1
    in a region that stretches from Henderson
    2
    County in the west to Cook and Lake Counties
    3
    in the northeast. Sewage treatment plants
    4
    discharges to very small streams where no
    5
    dilution water is present have the potential
    6
    to contain as much as 5 to 10 picocuries of
    7
    radium defending on concentrations in the
    8
    groundwater and efficiency of treatment in
    9
    removing radium to the sewage sludge.
    10
    The existing general use
    11
    water quality standard for radium 226 is 1
    12
    picocurie per liter and is found in 35
    13
    Illinois Administrative Code 302.207. This
    14
    standard was adopted by the Board as part of
    15
    its initial set of water quality regulations
    16
    first promulgated in 1972 in docket R71-14.
    17
    An identical standard first appeared in the
    18
    regulations for the Lake Michigan Basin in
    19
    1997 due to a change in the format of how
    20
    Lake Michigan standards were presented. This
    21
    standard has been continuously applicable in
    22
    Lake Michigan since 1972, however. The
    23
    Board's 1972 opinion accompanying adoption of
    24
    the radium standard mentioned that the new

    18
    1
    regulation, quote, retains existing
    2
    radioactivity levels, unquote, which implies
    3
    that this standard existed prior to 1972 in
    4
    the Sanitary Water Board, the precursor to
    5
    the Agency and Board regulations. A
    6
    justification document that appears to have
    7
    accompanied the rulemaking also simply says
    8
    that the radioactivity standards, quote,
    9
    retain existing radioactivity levels,
    10
    unquote. We now have reason to believe that
    11
    the Board's 1972 radium 226 standard did not
    12
    preserve a then existing state standard but
    13
    rather was derived from a federal suggested
    14
    value current at that time.
    15
    The Illinois Sanitary
    16
    Water Board had numerous regional water
    17
    quality standards in place by 1966 and these
    18
    included either a radium 226 standard or an
    19
    alpha omitters, which was presumably the
    20
    Sanitary Water Board meant alpha emitters
    21
    standard depending on the region. This may
    22
    have been due to the fact that standards for
    23
    interstate waters reflected the neighboring
    24
    state's preference, some choosing to regulate

    19
    1
    radium 226 and some alpha emitters. The
    2
    numeric value was the same for either
    3
    parameter and for all regions, 3 picocuries
    4
    per liter. This standard was found in the
    5
    Public Water Supply Intakes category and it
    6
    was noted that these standards were intended
    7
    to protect, quote, river quality at the point
    8
    at which water is withdrawn for treatment,
    9
    unquote. This is consistent with the intent
    10
    underlying the Public and Food Processing
    11
    Water Supply Standards, Subpart C, in the
    12
    current Board regulations. It is also
    13
    interesting to note that the standard for
    14
    strontium 90 was 10 picocuries per liter and
    15
    gross beta concentration was 1,000 picocuries
    16
    per liter in these Sanitary Water Board
    17
    standards while the existing general use
    18
    water quality standards for strontium 90 and
    19
    gross beta are 2 picocuries per liter and 100
    20
    picocuries per liter respectively and are
    21
    found in 35 Illinois Administrative Code
    22
    302.207.
    23
    In looking to the origin
    24
    of the Sanitary Water Board's Standards, a

    20
    1
    federal source called the Public Health
    2
    Service Drinking Water Standards published by
    3
    the U.S. Department of Health, Education and
    4
    Welfare in 1962, and also cited in the
    5
    Agency's rulemaking proposal, is implicated.
    6
    In the 1962 document, finished drinking water
    7
    standards are given: 3 picocuries per liter
    8
    for radium 226, 10 picocuries per liter for
    9
    strontium 90 and 1,000 picocuries per liter
    10
    for gross beta radiation. These are the
    11
    exact values adopted by the Sanitary Water
    12
    Board for raw water being used as a public
    13
    water supply.
    14
    In a later federal
    15
    source, the Green Book, formally referred to
    16
    as the Report of the Committee on Water
    17
    Quality Criteria, dated April 1st, 1968, and
    18
    cited in the Agency's proposal, a table is
    19
    given in the section on Public Water Supply
    20
    Standards, which gives two values for each
    21
    parameter, a, quote, permissible value and a,
    22
    quote, desirable value. The permissible
    23
    value is 3 picocuries per liter for radium
    24
    226, while the desirable value is less than 1

    21
    1
    picocurie per liter. For strontium 90 these
    2
    values are 10 and less than 2 and for gross
    3
    beta 1,000 and less than 100 picocuries per
    4
    liter, respectively. The Green Book cites
    5
    the 1962 Public Health Service document as
    6
    the source of its permissible criteria, but
    7
    it seems that the desirable criteria are its
    8
    own invention. The Green Book specifically
    9
    states that these values apply not to
    10
    finished water but, quote, can be used in
    11
    setting standards for raw water quality only,
    12
    unquote, which implies that these were
    13
    intended to be point of intake standards.
    14
    Taking a finished water standard and applying
    15
    it as a raw water standard adds conservatism,
    16
    since any treatment provided by the community
    17
    water supply would reduce concentrations. It
    18
    appears that the Green Book took this liberty
    19
    with the 1962 drinking water standards.
    20
    The Green Book appears to
    21
    be the source for the Pollution Control Board
    22
    general use water quality standards of 1972.
    23
    The Sanitary Water Board adopted their
    24
    standards before publications of the Green

    22
    1
    Book and interpreted the 1962 Public Health
    2
    Service values as point of intake standards
    3
    for public water supplies. The Pollution
    4
    Control Board apparently changed two things,
    5
    making these standards general in
    6
    applicability and taking the more stringent
    7
    Green Book desirable value as the standard,
    8
    simply dropping the less than sign. The
    9
    record indicating that the Board said it,
    10
    quote, preserve the existing standard,
    11
    unquote, may therefore mean that it was the
    12
    1968 Green Book desirable recommendation
    13
    rather than the standard applicable to
    14
    Illinois at that time, adopted by the
    15
    Sanitary Water Board, that was being
    16
    preserved. It seems certain that the
    17
    ultimate origin of the Sanitary Water Board's
    18
    radioactivity water quality standards was the
    19
    federal Public Health Service documents of
    20
    1962, while the Pollution Control Board's
    21
    source was the Green Book. For reasons of
    22
    concentration, 1 picocurie per liter instead
    23
    of 3 picocuries per liter, and applicability,
    24
    general use instead of public and food

    23
    1
    processing water supply, the present radium
    2
    standard, and the radioactivity standards in
    3
    general, are more conservative than ever
    4
    intended by the original source.
    5
    As explained in Jerry
    6
    Kuhn's pre-filed testimony, the current U.S.
    7
    Environmental Protection Agency finished
    8
    drinking water Maximum Contaminant Level or
    9
    MCL for radium 226 plus radium 228 is 5
    10
    picocuries per liter. This standard is based
    11
    on the fact that radium is a carcinogen.
    12
    Persons drinking water over a lifetime will
    13
    theoretically be protected from cancer at an
    14
    acceptable risk level of ten to the minus
    15
    six -- ten -- no, it's ten to the sixth to
    16
    ten to the fourth power, if the concentration
    17
    of radium in drinking water is less than 5
    18
    picocuries per liter. Since the MCL is a
    19
    finished drinking water standard, this makes
    20
    the previous federal standard of 3 picocuries
    21
    per liter applicable at the point of intake,
    22
    which applies to raw water, upon which the
    23
    Sanitary Water Board standard was based, very
    24
    conservative. Protecting nearly all waters

    24
    1
    at 1 picocurie per liter is excessively
    2
    stringent. This level of protection is
    3
    undocumented and is unwarranted.
    4
    Radium is a recognized
    5
    carcinogen and therefore standards protecting
    6
    sources of drinking water are necessary and
    7
    important. However, as far as may be
    8
    determined, no other uses of water are known
    9
    to be adversely impacted by radium. The
    10
    Illinois EPA conducted a literature search
    11
    for radium impacts to aquatic life and found
    12
    no scientific papers or other information on
    13
    this subject. Consultation with USEPA region
    14
    five water quality standards staff also found
    15
    no indication that radium is anything but a
    16
    threat to human health via drinking water.
    17
    Other states regulate
    18
    radium in a similar manner to that proposed
    19
    by the Agency. Oklahoma has a standard of 5
    20
    picocuries per liter at the point of intake
    21
    for public water supplies. The Ohio River
    22
    Sanitation Commission has a water quality
    23
    standard for the Ohio River of 4 picocuries
    24
    per liter applicable everywhere in the river

    25
    1
    outside of the mixing zones. ORSANCO
    2
    considers the entire Ohio River to be a
    3
    public water supply. Indiana has an intake
    4
    raw water standard of 3 picocuries per liter,
    5
    which may be an artifact of the old Green
    6
    Book standard. Several other states were
    7
    contacted, including California, Utah and
    8
    Arizona, western states that have had hard
    9
    rock mining issues. Even these states have
    10
    no aquatic life water quality standards for
    11
    radium. Illinois appears to be unique in
    12
    this regard.
    13
    The Agency's proposal to
    14
    remove the general use in Lake Michigan
    15
    standards and establish a Public and Food
    16
    Processing Water Supply standard at the
    17
    federal MCL for radium 226 and 228 is
    18
    protective of all uses that may be impacted
    19
    by radium. Radium would then be regulated in
    20
    a manner similar to other substances that may
    21
    cause problems in drinking water yet do not
    22
    have to be regulated as stringently for other
    23
    uses. These substances are those listed
    24
    under 35 Illinois Administrative Code

    26
    1
    302.304. For example, chloride is regulated
    2
    at 250 milligrams per liter under 302.204 to
    3
    protect drinking water intakes from excess
    4
    salts. There is no reason to regulate
    5
    general use waters at this low level since
    6
    all other uses of waters are protected at
    7
    higher chloride concentrations. The existing
    8
    general use standard regulates radium
    9
    unnecessarily and causes compliance issues at
    10
    communities struggling with drinking water
    11
    problems.
    12
    While there is no data
    13
    for radium to indicate what the threshold
    14
    concentration would be to protect aquatic
    15
    life, the Illinois EPA is confident that it
    16
    is much higher than the 5 picocuries per
    17
    liter level given the lack of concern for
    18
    this exposure route by the scientific
    19
    community, the extremely low mass per volume
    20
    concentration that this standard represents
    21
    and the fact that barium, a much more common
    22
    metal related chemically to radium, is not
    23
    toxic to aquatic life at the low part per
    24
    million level. Presently, the known source

    27
    1
    of the radium to the surface water
    2
    environment are public water supplies that
    3
    utilize high radium groundwater. These are
    4
    typically no higher in concentration than the
    5
    groundwater, and as explained in Blaine
    6
    Kinsley's pre-filed testimony to follow,
    7
    usually somewhat lower. Even direct
    8
    discharges of wastewater resulting from
    9
    treatment of high radium groundwater, should
    10
    these ever occur, constitute only about
    11
    double the radium loading expected from a
    12
    sewage treatment plant. Other types of
    13
    discharges are unknown. Should a new source
    14
    of radium be proposed, the antidegradation
    15
    standard would be imposed to require the new
    16
    source to justify the radium discharge, which
    17
    would include studies of treatment
    18
    alternatives and steps to minimize any
    19
    necessary radium discharges.
    20
    It is apparent from our
    21
    investigation into the scientific information
    22
    and the lack of concern in other states and
    23
    at the federal level that drinking water
    24
    protection is the only beneficial use

    28
    1
    classification of Illinois streams and lakes
    2
    that warrants a radium water quality
    3
    standard. This conclusion is based on
    4
    concentrations existing or expected to be
    5
    realized in Illinois surface waters from
    6
    either naturally occurring conditions or
    7
    those resulting from water treatment plant
    8
    wastes or their affiliated publicly owned
    9
    treatment works in those parts of the state
    10
    that rely on radium-containing groundwater as
    11
    their portable raw water source.
    12
    The proposed changes to
    13
    the general use and Lake Michigan Basin water
    14
    quality standards removes the radium standard
    15
    and replaces it with a standard that protects
    16
    surface water intakes for raw drinking water
    17
    at the established finished drinking water
    18
    MCL standard. This change is protective of
    19
    the sensitive designated use of Illinois
    20
    waters to radium and provides a framework in
    21
    the regulations for a sensible approach to
    22
    radium in surface waters. Radium will now be
    23
    regulated as a combination of radium 226 and
    24
    228 at Public and Food Processing Water

    29
    1
    Supply intakes at a concentration of 5
    2
    picocuries per liter.
    3
    I would like to thank the
    4
    Board for the opportunity to submit this
    5
    pre-filed testimony and for its consideration
    6
    of the Agency's rulemaking proposal. I will
    7
    be pleased to answer any addition questions
    8
    presented by the Board or members of the
    9
    public regarding the Agency's rulemaking
    10
    proposal.
    11
    HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, Mr.
    12
    Mosher.
    13
    MS. WILLIAMS: At this time the Agency
    14
    does have a couple exhibits for the Board
    15
    that illustrates some of the items presented
    16
    in Mr. Mosher and Mr. Kuhn's testimony. I'm
    17
    not sure if given this rule -- that it's the
    18
    rulemaking proceeding you're concerned about
    19
    authenticating the exhibits, but we have two
    20
    maps that I can --
    21
    HEARING OFFICER: Sure you can go
    22
    ahead and make a motion and then --
    23
    MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. First I have a
    24
    map of the state that I've identified as

    30
    1
    Exhibit 1.
    2
    HEARING OFFICER: Sure.
    3
    MS. WILLIAMS: Jerry, why don't you
    4
    identify it. Can you tell us what it is?
    5
    MR. KUHN: Okay. It's the location of
    6
    all the public water supply -- actually,
    7
    community water supply surface intakes in the
    8
    state of Illinois.
    9
    HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
    10
    MS. WILLIAMS: And if there is no
    11
    objection if I could have that admitted as
    12
    Exhibit 1?
    13
    HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Seeing no
    14
    objections, we'll admit this public water
    15
    supply intakes map as Exhibit 1.
    16
    MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. And I have a
    17
    second map. Maybe, Jerry, I'll ask for you
    18
    to identify the second map for us also.
    19
    MR. KUHN: Okay. These are the
    20
    locations of, I believe, the majority of the
    21
    radionuclide communities service. The
    22
    communities that do have a radionuclide
    23
    detection over the MCL and their source
    24
    water.

    31
    1
    HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
    2
    MS. WILLIAMS: And I've marked this
    3
    second map as Exhibit 2.
    4
    HEARING OFFICER: Okay. If there are
    5
    no objections, I'll go ahead and admit this.
    6
    This additional map of a radionuclide MCL
    7
    violations for Illinois community water
    8
    supply facilities as Exhibit 2.
    9
    MS. WILLIAMS: And if there are no
    10
    objections, I'd like to move to have it
    11
    entered.
    12
    HEARING OFFICER: And -- sorry, and
    13
    we'll enter it as Exhibit 2, if I haven't
    14
    done that already.
    15
    HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Kinsley, you can
    16
    go ahead, and if you prefer you can read your
    17
    pre-filed testimony into the record or just a
    18
    summary. It's your choice.
    19
    MR. KINSLEY: It's not very long.
    20
    I'll just go ahead and read it.
    21
    HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
    22
    MR. KINSLEY: Good afternoon. My name
    23
    is Blaine Kinsley. I am the manager of the
    24
    Industrial Unit in the Division of Water,

    32
    1
    Pollution Control Permit Section. I have
    2
    been in that position since December of 2002.
    3
    The Industrial Unit is responsible for
    4
    application review an issuance of National
    5
    Pollutant Discharge Elimination System, also
    6
    referred to as NPDES, permits and state
    7
    construction permits for industrial
    8
    facilities including backwash discharges from
    9
    public water supply facilities. I have
    10
    worked for the Illinois Environmental
    11
    Protection Agency, Illinois EPA, for nine
    12
    years, all of which have been spent in the
    13
    industrial unit. Before coming to the
    14
    Illinois EPA, I worked for a consulting
    15
    engineering firm in Louisville, Kentucky. I
    16
    received a Bachelor of Science degree in
    17
    Geological Engineering from the University of
    18
    Missouri-Rolla in 1994. I have been an
    19
    Illinois Licensed Professional Engineer since
    20
    2001.
    21
    My testimony today will
    22
    focus on the fate of radium and publicly
    23
    owned treatment works, which I will refer to
    24
    as POTWs. The specific concerns I will

    33
    1
    discuss in my testimony are how much radium
    2
    can be expected to be removed in the various
    3
    types of treatment systems and whether the
    4
    affected systems will be able to meet the
    5
    existing water quality standard for radium
    6
    226.
    7
    There is little published
    8
    information available on the fate of radium
    9
    226 in POTWs. The state of Wisconsin
    10
    probably has more experience with radium than
    11
    any of the states in U.S.EPA's region five,
    12
    which is the region that includes Illinois.
    13
    A 1985 report by the Wisconsin Department of
    14
    Natural Resources studied five Wisconsin
    15
    communities with varying degrees of radium
    16
    226 and 228 in their wastewater. That study
    17
    concluded that biological sludges, both fixed
    18
    media and suspended growth, absorb soluble
    19
    radium and that insoluble radium is also
    20
    removed in wastewater treatment processes by
    21
    either physical settling or biological
    22
    uptake. All of the communities studied had
    23
    either activated sludge or Rotating
    24
    Biological Contractor, RBC, treatment

    34
    1
    processes. Removal efficiencies, based on
    2
    influent versus effluent concentrations,
    3
    ranged from a low 29 percent to a high of 97
    4
    percent.
    5
    For the purpose of this
    6
    comparison and to address the lack of
    7
    existing treatment efficiency or effluent
    8
    data, the Agency used the fate of barium in a
    9
    POTW to estimate the removal efficiencies for
    10
    radium by the same wastewater treatment
    11
    facilities. Both radium and barium are Group
    12
    IIA metals on the Periodic Table of Elements,
    13
    which means they have similar chemical
    14
    properties. Influent and effluent sampling
    15
    data for barium does exist for some POTWs in
    16
    Illinois especially those with approved
    17
    pretreatment programs. The influent
    18
    concentrations of barium at a sampling of
    19
    these POTWs were well below the anticipated
    20
    concentrations of radium. Removal
    21
    efficiencies, based on influent versus
    22
    effluent sampling, ranged from 25 percent to
    23
    62 percent. Four of the five POTWs reviewed
    24
    utilized activated sludge and one use

    35
    1
    trickling filters. There did not appear to
    2
    be a correlation between the types of
    3
    treatment and the removal efficiencies based
    4
    on the limited number of facilities where the
    5
    data was available.
    6
    The Illinois EPA is in
    7
    the process of requiring radium sampling of
    8
    sludge at POTWs where high levels of radium
    9
    are found in the community's source water.
    10
    In addition, new state construction permits
    11
    for the discharge of radium backwashes to
    12
    POTWs require influent and effluent sampling
    13
    at the affected POTW. This requirement is
    14
    necessary to ascertain the percent removal of
    15
    radium in the treatment processes and to gage
    16
    the number of facilities that may have
    17
    problems meeting the 1 picocurie per liter
    18
    water quality standard for radium 226. To
    19
    date, the Illinois EPA has received only a
    20
    limited number -- limited data from this type
    21
    of sampling. Based on the data submitted by
    22
    one discharger with two wastewater treatment
    23
    plants, the radium removal efficiencies are
    24
    between 31 percent and 60 percent. Both of

    36
    1
    these wastewater treatment plants employ an
    2
    activated sludge treatment process. The
    3
    difference between the two plants is that the
    4
    plant with a 60 percent removal efficiency
    5
    receives much more of its influent from
    6
    combined sewer flows. The combined sewer
    7
    flows would act to dilute the radium
    8
    concentration coming to the plant which would
    9
    increase its apparent removal efficiency.
    10
    Considering typical raw
    11
    water concentrations and expected removal
    12
    efficiencies, it is anticipated that many
    13
    POTWs discharging to streams with little or
    14
    no continuous flow may have trouble meeting
    15
    the existing radium water quality standard.
    16
    The changes proposed by the Agency would
    17
    assist these communities in remaining in
    18
    compliance with water quality standards while
    19
    still protecting all existing and future uses
    20
    of the state's lakes and streams.
    21
    Finally, I would like to
    22
    thank the Board for the opportunity to submit
    23
    this pre-filed testimony and for its
    24
    consideration of the Agency's rulemaking

    37
    1
    proposal.
    2
    HEARING OFFICER: Thank you,
    3
    Mr. Kinsley, Mr. Mosher and Mr. Kuhn, all for
    4
    your testimony and for being here today.
    5
    Next, we'll go on to the questioning period,
    6
    and I'd also like to note for the record that
    7
    there are three members of the public here
    8
    today. And do any of you have any questions
    9
    for the witnesses? (Nodding). We do have
    10
    some questions prepared today from our staff
    11
    that we'd like to include in the record. If
    12
    you're prepared to answer them today, then
    13
    please do; and if not, there's -- we also
    14
    have that second hearing scheduled in May at
    15
    which time you can follow-up. So, Anand,
    16
    would you like to start?
    17
    MR. RAO: Yeah. Sure.
    18 BY MR. RAO:
    19
    Q. Yeah, I have some questions for all
    20 the three of you, and any one of you can jump in and
    21 answer these questions. Basically, they are all,
    22 kind of, clarifications to get information into the
    23 record.
    24
    Mr. Kuhn, in your testimony

    38
    1 you mentioned that there -- you list that three
    2 basic options are available for community water
    3 supplies in compliance with the same drinking water
    4 act radium standards. At this time, does the Agency
    5 have any information as to how many of this,
    6 approximately 100 or so, community water supplies
    7 that have opted to treat their source water instead
    8 of blending or...
    9 BY MR. KUHN:
    10
    A. The vast majority of the plans I'm
    11 looking at are -- are -- they're treating their
    12 source water. Some are hooking onto a system that
    13 doesn't have a radium problem. We've had some that
    14 are blending their water with -- the radium is a --
    15 is a deep well phenomena, and we had some that are
    16 drilling shallow wells and then blending the shallow
    17 with the deep well to meet the MCL; but I'd say,
    18 vast majority are providing some type of treatment.
    19
    Q. And but -- the community water
    20 supplies opting for -- opting to treat their source
    21 water. Do you know if most of them are disposing of
    22 their, you know, waste that's generated by treatment
    23 to their local, publicly owned treatment works, or
    24 did they have other means to dispose it of?

    39
    1
    A. All of the one's -- they all generate
    2 a wastewater, so, yes, they would be disposing of
    3 that into the -- in the sanitary source or to the
    4 local POTW.
    5
    Q. One of the things that was mentioned,
    6 I think, it was in Mr. Mosher's testimony, it was
    7 that a scenario that was presented where they may
    8 have non-compliance problems would be in a situation
    9 where the POTW is discharging into small stream with
    10 no dilution. Does the Agency have any information
    11 as to number of these affected treatment plants
    12 which are discharging to low-flow streams?
    13 BY MR. MOSHER
    14
    A. It would be the majority of those
    15 communities to low-flow or zero-flow streams.
    16 BY MR. RAO:
    17
    Q. When you say majority of those
    18 communities, if we look at this map, which is marked
    19 as Exhibit 2, are you saying that most of these
    20 facilities are discharging to low-flow streams?
    21
    A. Yes, that's generally true across the
    22 state; and there's nothing in this group of
    23 communities that's any different.
    24
    Q. Right.

    40
    1
    A. Just glancing through there, you know,
    2 a few of these are located on -- on larger rivers,
    3 but, you know, most of them are small towns; and
    4 most small towns are located on small streams and
    5 that's where they discharge.
    6
    Q. I know. Prior to the Board's option
    7 and the Agency's implementation of this radium MCL,
    8 did the Agency, in the past, encounter any
    9 compliance issues with the existing radium water
    10 quality standard?
    11
    A. Well, the fact of that matter is we
    12 have not attempted to regulate that for that
    13 standard. It's assumed that any of these sewage
    14 treatment plants affected in these communities would
    15 not -- would cause the radium standard that exists
    16 now not to be met in those small streams, but the
    17 Agency has not attempted to regulate, knowing that
    18 there is no alternative, no reasonable alternative.
    19
    Q. Do you believe that, you know, removal
    20 of radium in drinking water could still become a
    21 non-compliant issue if the current water quality
    22 standard was taken from 1 picocurie per liter to 5
    23 picocuries per liter for combined radium?
    24
    A. Well, I think we try to illustrate

    41
    1 that the groundwater itself ranges up to 20
    2 picocuries per liter, and if you are pumping that
    3 kind of water out of the ground, removing it from
    4 the drinking water, but then putting -- putting the
    5 radium back in the sewer system so it gets to the
    6 sewage plant anyway. So there's no -- there's no
    7 real change here between a town that is treating for
    8 radium in its drinking water and a town that has not
    9 yet. It all gets back to the sewage treatment
    10 plant. And then if sewage treatment plant removes
    11 at the efficiencies that Blaine has researched --
    12
    HEARING OFFICER: Thirty-one to 60
    13
    percent?
    14
    MR. MOSHER: Yeah.
    15
    MR. KINSLEY: Yeah, based on the
    16
    barium data.
    17
    HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
    18 BY MR. MOSHER:
    19
    A. So given all that, there's a potential
    20 in these zero-flow streams that are dominated by the
    21 sewage plant effluent for something, like, you know,
    22 15 picocuries per liter on down. So if we change
    23 the general standard to 5 picocuries, we would still
    24 probably have several communities that would not

    42
    1 meet that standard and would have no good
    2 alternative to meet that standard.
    3
    HEARING OFFICER: And you mentioned
    4
    that there -- in some of the pre-filed
    5
    testimony, you mentioned that some states do
    6
    what this proposal proposes to do. Are there
    7
    some states that also have a general used
    8
    water quality standard for radium that is
    9
    greater --
    10
    MR. MOSHER: No.
    11
    HEARING OFFICER: -- such as, similar
    12
    to 5.
    13
    MR. MOSHER: No. I think I mentioned
    14
    in my testimony in that where Illinois is
    15
    unique in that regard.
    16
    HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
    17
    MR. MOSHER: As far as we -- now, we
    18
    did not interview every state.
    19
    HEARING OFFICER: Mm-hmm.
    20
    MR. MOSHER: We interviewed our
    21
    neighboring states in the Midwest, and then I
    22
    specifically looked at western states where
    23
    uranium mining occurs and things like that
    24
    where you would expect more radium, and none

    43
    1
    of them are setup either.
    2
    HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
    3
    MR. MOSHER: So everyone else that we
    4
    know of is regulating at the public supply
    5
    intake point.
    6 BY MR. RAO:
    7
    Q. Just for clarification purpose, what
    8 you're saying is, basically the load on the publicly
    9 owned treatment work, the radium load won't change
    10 because of the drinking water treatment plant is
    11 removing radium out of the source water because it's
    12 finally going to end up in the treatment plant
    13 anyways?
    14 BY MR. MOSHER:
    15
    A. That's correct. The only way it's
    16 going to change is if that community abandons that
    17 deep well as their source. And, Jerry, I think you
    18 just said that not many are really doing that.
    19
    MR. KUHN: The vast majority, right,
    20
    are choosing to treat.
    21 BY MR. RAO:
    22
    Q. Now, I have a couple of questions to
    23 deal with in the implementation of the Public and
    24 Food Processing Water Supply Standards now since we

    44
    1 are moving this radium standard from the general use
    2 to the Public and Food Processing Water Supply
    3 Standards. Can you explain how those rules are
    4 implemented? You know, when going over your
    5 testimony and looking at the rules, it seems like it
    6 applies at the point of intake. So if at the point
    7 of intake the levels are higher than 5 picocuries
    8 per liter, you know, will the public water supply be
    9 responsible to treat it? I just wanted to get that
    10 clear and how we implement that standard.
    11 BY MR. MOSHER:
    12
    A. Well, those standards are protected by
    13 Agency regulatory policies. We would not let a
    14 radium discharger discharge radium into a water that
    15 has a public water supply intake point downstream.
    16
    HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
    17 BY MR. MOSHER:
    18
    A. We would make sure there would be no
    19 mixing zone at that point of intake, of course,
    20 that's in the mixing zone standards. We -- we
    21 cannot let a mixing zone do that. And the -- the --
    22 really the fact of the matter is there is no known
    23 case where that would occur.
    24 BY MR. RAO:

    45
    1
    Q. So there's no discharger anywhere
    2 near --
    3
    A. No. And, again, it's a matter of
    4 geology, I guess, that dictates that the -- if you
    5 compare these two maps that we passed out, there's a
    6 large blank area in Northern Illinois where there
    7 are few, if any --
    8
    Q. Intakes.
    9
    A. -- surface water intakes. Well,
    10 that's because groundwater is abundant. Groundwater
    11 is cheaper to produce into public water supply,
    12 and -- and the opposite is true for the rest of the
    13 of state that a lot of people are using surface
    14 water. So there are few, if any, discharges of
    15 radium in -- you know, in the area where people are
    16 using surface water, so that works out.
    17
    MS. WILLIAMS: And maybe, Jerry, could
    18
    you explain a little bit for the Board what
    19
    the -- what you looked into as far as intakes
    20
    and tested for radioactivity.
    21
    MR. KUHN: Okay. As part of our --
    22
    the public water supply requirements, we
    23
    require surface water intake -- or not the
    24
    intakes, but surface water plant is also

    46
    1
    sample for radionuclides, and I took a look
    2
    at some of the data. Now, the sampling is
    3
    done at entry point, which is in the entry
    4
    point into the system and not at the route of
    5
    water source, but I looked at all the -- the
    6
    sampling results, and we didn't have anybody
    7
    that had any problems that would -- that
    8
    would have a problem with meeting the MCL.
    9
    HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
    10
    MR. KUHN: So the treatment that they
    11
    provided in the surface water plants would
    12
    meet the standard.
    13 BY MR. RAO:
    14
    Q. I have one more question. Mr. Mosher,
    15 in your testimony dealing with the history of the
    16 Board's radioactivity standards, you, kind of,
    17 concluded that, you know, the level of protection
    18 that was adopted by the Board was undocumented and
    19 unwarranted in case of radium. Do you believe that
    20 the same rational holds for strontium 90 and gross
    21 beta?
    22 BY MR. MOSHER:
    23
    A. Yes, but the same factors are present
    24 with those other two substances. We are not

    47
    1 proposing that we change those because there is no
    2 economic or compliance reason to do so. And if we
    3 did propose to change those, we would have had to do
    4 triple the research that we did for radium; and
    5 given our staff situation and resources right now,
    6 we said there's no reason, there's no economic or
    7 social reason that we need to change those so we
    8 won't change those. We'll conserve our resources.
    9
    Q. Okay. I'm done.
    10 BY HEARING OFFICER:
    11
    Q. One more question for Mr. Kinsley. As
    12 you just mentioned that the EPA requires radium
    13 sampling of sludge at POTWs where high levels are
    14 found in the community's water source, and also that
    15 new state construction permits for discharge of
    16 radium backwashes the POTWs require influent and
    17 effluent sampling. Are those requirements new or
    18 included in permits, or how -- what are those
    19 requirements exactly.
    20 BY MR. KINSLEY:
    21
    A. I believe, you're referring to me.
    22
    Q. Okay.
    23
    A. Those are written into state
    24 construction permits currently that basically a

    48
    1 state construction permit is required when a POTW
    2 wants to hook onto the -- or let me backup.
    3
    When a public water supply
    4 needs to hook onto the POTW and we would consider
    5 that a new source of wastewater to that POTWs, that
    6 backwash discharge. So that when we -- when we
    7 write those permits and we're still trying to get a
    8 hold -- a handle on, since we don't have that much
    9 data yet, what the expected removal efficiencies of
    10 those POTWs are, and that's the reason that we've
    11 been requiring the influent and effluent sampling
    12 when those permits are written. So that we can --
    13 then we know exactly what the removal efficiencies
    14 are, what -- how much of the radium is being
    15 retained in the sludge for those particular POTW and
    16 how much are expected to be discharged. Does that
    17 answer your question?
    18
    Q. Yes, it does.
    19
    A. Okay.
    20 BY MR. RAO:
    21
    Q. Just for follow-up to that. So, would
    22 construction permits be required of all of these
    23 POTWs, which will accept this radium backwashes?
    24 BY MR. KINSLEY:

    49
    1
    A. Primarily, yes, because normally
    2 what's been the case, is that the POTW may -- or I'm
    3 sorry. I keep getting the terms confused. The
    4 water treatment plant may have sand filters or some
    5 type of filtration, but the rating removal requires
    6 more treatment, which -- which results in another
    7 backwash discharge, say, for an example, of ion
    8 exchange or the reject from an RO unit.
    9
    Q. Okay.
    10
    A. So any time there's a new source like
    11 that, it requires a construction permit from the
    12 state to hook onto that POTW.
    13
    Q. There's also a new source of waste to
    14 the POTW, does that also require any kind of NPDS
    15 permit modification or...
    16
    A. Normally those POTWs are -- are
    17 designed to a certain capacity, a design average
    18 flow. And until they're -- when they're first
    19 brought on-line, they're much below that design
    20 capacity, and as connection permits -- construction
    21 permits are written to that POTW, there's no need to
    22 normally go back and re-rate those plants or to do
    23 any special monitoring. But in this case, with the
    24 radium, we just wanted to get a handle on what the

    50
    1 removal efficiencies are since that really wasn't
    2 tracked in the past.
    3
    Q. Okay. Because one of the things I
    4 think maybe it was in Mr. Mosher's testimony was
    5 that if there's a new radium discharge, there would
    6 be an antidegradation analysis; but in this kind of
    7 a situation that you are describing, there won't be
    8 an antidegradation analysis required for all of
    9 these treatment plants?
    10 BY MR. MOSHER:
    11
    A. No, because they're already supplying
    12 the radium to the sewage treatment plants. It's not
    13 a new loading source.
    14
    Q. Thank you.
    15 BY MS. LIU:
    16
    Q. Just out of curiosity, just one more
    17 question. You mentioned that water from radium that
    18 will be removed in the treatment process would end
    19 up in sludge. Are the radium levels high enough in
    20 the sludge to require special disposal of the
    21 sludge?
    22 BY MR. KINSLEY:
    23
    A. We have a memorandum of understanding
    24 with the -- used to be the Illinois Department of

    51
    1 Nuclear Safety, but now they've been under the
    2 umbrella of the Illinois Emergency Management, but
    3 it's the same folks, and we've been discussing the
    4 terms of the agreement and seeing if we need to
    5 revise that. And so far, as far as I know, we
    6 haven't -- there's nothing that's come up that we
    7 have revise that -- that agreement. Keep in mind
    8 that the radium in these source waters was always
    9 going to these POTWs, and that, you know, now it's
    10 just being taken out of -- out of the drinking water
    11 side, but it's still going right back in, as it
    12 always did, to the wastewater treatment center. So
    13 we're looking at that, and we're under -- currently
    14 deciding if we need to change those understandings,
    15 so, and that ties into why we're requesting that
    16 data.
    17
    HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Thank you.
    18
    Are there any other questions? (Nodding).
    19
    Okay. Julie, can we go off the record for a
    20
    minute?
    21
    COURT REPORTER: Sure.
    22
    (Whereupon, a discussion
    23
    was had off the record.)
    24
    HEARING OFFICER: The Board has a

    52
    1
    second hearing scheduled for May 6th, 2004,
    2
    as I mentioned before, in Springfield, and
    3
    the hearing is at 2:30 p.m. in the Illinois
    4
    Pollution Control Board hearing room at 1021
    5
    North Grand Avenue East. People who would
    6
    like to testify at the next hearing should
    7
    pre-file the testimony by Thursday, April
    8
    22nd. We expect to have the transcript of
    9
    today's hearing in our Chicago office by
    10
    about 10 days from today, which brings us to
    11
    April 10th or 11th. Soon after we receive
    12
    it, the Board will post the transcript on our
    13
    website, and the website address is
    14
    www.ipcb.state.il.us, bear the transcript as
    15
    well as the Agency's proposal and all of the
    16
    Board orders throughout this proceeding as
    17
    well as the pre-filed testimony will be
    18
    viewable and downloadable at no charge.
    19
    Alternatively, you can order a copy of the
    20
    transcript from the clerk of the Board at
    21
    $0.75 per page. Anyone can file a public
    22
    comment in this proceeding with the clerk of
    23
    the Board, but please note that when filing a
    24
    public comment, you must serve all of the

    53
    1
    people on the service list with the copy of
    2
    the public comment; and, again, copies of the
    3
    current service list are available today at
    4
    the side of the room or you can contact me or
    5
    Lynn Hughes, who is our secretary and you can
    6
    reach her -- do you have Lynn's phone number?
    7
    MR. MELAS: Yeah, 814-3624.
    8
    HEARING OFFICER: At 814-3624. If
    9
    there's nothing further, I wish to thank all
    10
    of you for your comments and your testimony.
    11
    This discussion will continue at the next
    12
    hearing, and today this hearing is adjourned.
    13
    Thank you.
    14
    15
    16
    17
    18
    19
    20
    21
    22
    23
    24

    54
    1 STATE OF ILLINOIS )
    ) SS.
    2 COUNTY OF WILL
    )
    3
    4
    I, JULIA A. BAUER, CSR, do hearby state
    5 that I am a court reporter doing business in the
    6 City of Chicago, County of Will, and State of
    7 Illinois; that I reported by means of machine
    8 shorthand the proceedings held in the foregoing
    9 cause, and that the foregoing is a true and correct
    10 transcript of my shorthand notes so taken as
    11 aforesaid.
    12
    13
    14
    _____________________
    Julia A. Bauer, CSR
    15
    Notary Public,
    Will County, Illinois
    16
    17
    18 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO
    before me this _____ day
    19 of _________, A.D., 2004.
    20
    ________________________
    21 Notary Public
    22
    23
    24

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