298
1 ILLINOIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD
2 LIONEL TREPANIER, WES )
WAGER, MAUREEN COLE, )
3 LORENZ JOSEPH, MAXWORKS )
GARDEN COOPERATIVE, and )
4 AVI PANDYA, )
)
5 Complainants, )
)
6 vs. ) PCB 97-50
) (Enforcement-Air, Citizens)
7 SPEEDWAY WRECKING COMPANY )
and THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES )
8 OF THE UNIVERSITY OF )
ILLINOIS, )
9 )
Respondents. )
10
11
12 The following is the transcript of a
13 hearing held in the above-entitled matter, taken
14 stenographically by Caryl L. Hardy, CSR, a notary
15 public within and for the County of Cook and State
16 of Illinois, before John C. Knittle, Hearing Officer,
17 at 100 West Randolph Street, Room 8-033, Chicago,
18 Illinois, on the 24th day of March, 1999, A.D.,
19 commencing at the hour of 9:37 a.m.
20
21
22
23
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
299
1 PRESENT:
2 HEARING TAKEN BEFORE:
ILLINOIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD
3 100 West Randolph Street
Suite 11-500
4 Chicago, Illinois 60601
(312) 814-3473
5 BY: MR. JOHN C. KNITTLE
6
MR. LIONEL TREPANIER
7 MR. JOSEPH LORENZ
MS. MAUREEN MINNICK
8 MR. WES WAGER
9 Appeared Pro Se;
10
ARNSTEIN & LEHR
11 120 South Riverside Plaza
Suite 1200
12 Chicago, Illinois 60606
(312) 876-6928
13 BY: MR. NORMAN P. JEDDELOH
14 Appeared on behalf of the Respondent,
The Board of Trustees of the
15 University of Illinois;
16
ADDUCCI, DORF, LEHNER, MITCHELL, &
17 BLANKENSHIP, P.C.
150 North Michigan Avenue
18 Suite 2130
Chicago, Illinois 60601
19 (312) 781-2200
BY: MR. MARSHALL L. BLANKENSHIP
20
Appeared on behalf of the Respondent,
21 Speedway Wrecking Company.
22 ALSO PRESENT:
Ms. Amy Muran-Felton
23 Mr. James Henderson
Ms. Karen Kavanaugh
24 Mr. Larry Kolko
Mr. Thomas Saniat
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
300
1 I N D E X
2 WITNESSES: PAGE
3 LIONEL TREPANIER
4 Direct Examination by Mr. Trepanier. . . . . . 325
Cross Examination by Mr. Blankenship . . . . . 328
5
6 LORENZ JOSEPH
7 Direct Examination by Mr. Joseph . . . . . . . 361
Direct Examination by Mr. Trepanier. . . . . . 368
8 Direct Examination by Mr. Wager. . . . . . . . 428
Cross Examination by Mr. Blankenship . . . . . 437
9 Redirect Examination by Mr. Trepanier. . . . . 460
Redirect Examination by Mr. Wager. . . . . . . 468
10 Redirect Examination by Mr. Joseph . . . . . . 468
11
MARK DONOVAN
12
Direct Examination by Mr. Trepanier. . . . . . 474
13 Direct Examination by Mr. Joseph . . . . . . . 498
Direct Examination by Ms. Minnick. . . . . . . 503
14 Cross Examination by Mr. Jeddeloh. . . . . . . 504
Redirect Examination by Mr. Trepanier. . . . . 506
15 Redirect Examination by Mr. Joseph . . . . . . 512
16
PHIL MERGENER
17
Direct Examination by Mr. Trepanier. . . . . . 516
18 Direct Examination by Mr. Joseph . . . . . . . 540
Direct Examination by Ms. Minnick. . . . . . . 554
19 Direct Examination by Mr. Wager. . . . . . . . 556
20
GREGOREO HERNANDEZ
21
Direct Examination by Mr. Trepanier. . . . . . 570
22 Direct Examination by Mr. Joseph . . . . . . . 586
Continued Direct Examination by Mr. Trepanier. 587
23 Continued Direct Examination by Mr. Joseph . . 602
Direct Examination by Ms. Minnick. . . . . . . 614
24 Direct Examination by Mr. Wager. . . . . . . . 615
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
301
1 I N D E X (Continued)
2
E X H I B I T S Admitted
3 Marked for into
Identification Evidence
4
Complainants' Exhibit No. 2. . . . 323 338
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
302
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Let's go on the
2 record.
3 Hello. My name is John Knittle, hearing
4 officer for the Pollution Control Board. This is
5 the second day of hearing of Trepanier, et al., vs.
6 Speedway Wrecking Company and University of Illinois
7 Board of Trustees -- I may have reversed that --
8 97-50 on the Pollution Control Board's docket. It's
9 approximately 9:40 a.m. Present today are Lionel
10 Trepanier and Maureen Cole from the Complainants,
11 and all the respondents are present.
12 We are on the record and entertaining
13 motions before we get started today.
14 Mr. Trepanier, do you have a motion?
15 MS. MINNICK: Excuse me. May I please have my
16 name from Cole to Minnick which I'm trying to use my
17 maiden name?
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Are you seeking --
19 can I take that to be a motion to amend the
20 caption?
21 MS. MINNICK: Please.
22 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Is there an objection
23 to that motion to amend the caption?
24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: No.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
303
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Hearing no objection,
2 we will refer to you as Minnick.
3 MS. MINNICK: Correct.
4 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: And I will amend the
5 caption accordingly.
6 MS. MINNICK: Thank you.
7 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Any other outstanding
8 motions?
9 MR. TREPANIER: Good morning. I'm
10 Mr. Trepanier, and I'm tendering a verbal motion to
11 continue.
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Mr. Trepanier,
13 why don't you state your motion?
14 MR. TREPANIER: I'm requesting two weeks to
15 respond to the records that I received today from
16 Speedway Wrecking Company. These were records that
17 I had requested during discovery specifically
18 implicated by my interrogatory number 15 wherein I
19 had asked Speedway to identify the time, the
20 location, and all the general and specific
21 responsibilities, duties, assignments, and specific
22 work nature during Speedway's demolition, all of
23 their personnel who participated in the demolitions
24 in the area, their time and the location of their
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
304
1 work.
2 And also in my interrogatory number 3-C, I
3 had asked Speedway to -- for each of the persons
4 that were named in an above interrogatory to specify
5 and include each document that they used or created
6 by that person in their role in the Speedway
7 demolitions in the area, and the above-named persons
8 would have included Mr. Kolko who disclosed the
9 existence of these records yesterday.
10 Now, the records would allow myself to --
11 and they will allow me to identify and I can -- I'm
12 going to need to look at the record right now. I
13 think it's right in the front here.
14 This record that I'm looking at which was
15 turned to me over today, it's a document that's
16 number 270 and dated Monday, September 9th, 1996,
17 the same date as the Complainants' evidence video of
18 the site, and this document identifies that there
19 were, in fact, not 15 Speedway employees present but
20 six, and of those six, only three are even current
21 employees.
22 Now, what -- so I'm going to ask for a
23 continuance to respond to this information because I
24 have been prejudiced by not having this information,
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
305
1 and the prejudice has stemmed from the fact that
2 rather than supply me with information that would
3 have allowed me to identify who was on the job on
4 the very day that I have the evidence, information
5 that I vociferously sought to gain from Speedway,
6 they withheld that information until it was
7 discovered through testimony. And this information
8 would allow -- would allow and will allow me to
9 identify with specificity and within my capabilities
10 to subpoena a witness to come in to provide
11 important testimony about what was occurring inside
12 the building where yesterday's testimony Mr. Kolko
13 claimed that that -- it was on the interior of the
14 building that pollution controls were being
15 effected, and by not turning over this record to me
16 which identified who was in the building on that
17 date, I have been prejudiced, and I should have a
18 right to respond to this information and to bring in
19 these persons where I couldn't -- I just didn't have
20 the capacity to subpoena all of their former
21 employees, but now I've discovered that I needn't
22 subpoena all the former employees.
23 In fact, only -- there was two former
24 employees that were working that day -- they were up
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
306
1 in the building -- who are no longer working for
2 Speedway, and it's Mr. Sandoval and Mr. Guzman. So
3 now, my list of who I can seek to be a witness in
4 this case has been drastically made easier. In
5 fact, it's come within my capabilities to bring a
6 witness into this hearing now. And the only reason
7 that witness isn't here today is because Speedway
8 withheld these documents.
9 So I feel like it's an issue of
10 fundamental fairness that I be allowed some time,
11 and I'm suggesting two weeks to respond to this
12 information. And it's fundamental fairness so
13 important in this case where the Complainant is
14 asserting his constitutional right to a healthful
15 environment.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Is that it,
17 Mr. Trepanier?
18 MR. TREPANIER: Yes. Thank you.
19 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: And your response,
20 Mr. Blankenship?
21 MR. BLANKENSHIP: This is ridiculous. Over a
22 year ago, we identified every employee on this job
23 and his position on the job, and that was supplied
24 by Mr. Trepanier as part of a 201(k) resolution of a
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
307
1 discovery dispute.
2 Early this year, I advised Mr. Trepanier
3 of the employees who were no longer employed by
4 Speedway, and pursuant to your order, he finally
5 followed up on that a week before the hearing or two
6 weeks before the hearing. Pursuant to your order,
7 then I gave him the last known addresses of those
8 former employees.
9 As of a week ago, Mr. Trepanier intended
10 to call all 15 Speedway employees that worked on the
11 site on this particular project, and I assumed he
12 had made all the preparations to call all 15
13 employees. Now he seems to be upset because we've
14 given him documents which on their face simply show
15 the people that worked on the project, the very same
16 names we provided him a year ago. The only
17 difference is now it specifies the particular dates
18 these certain employees worked on the site.
19 What I hear Mr. Trepanier saying is he
20 needs more time because these documents have made
21 his case much easier. He doesn't need to call all
22 15 employees. He only needs to call three or four.
23 Well, that's not a reason to continue the hearing.
24 He should have had everything in motion to call all
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
308
1 these employees weeks ago as he told us he would.
2 He put us through an awful lot of money challenging
3 his summons to produce all these employees,
4 resisting his effort to get the addresses, and now
5 apparently he never followed through on any of that,
6 and now he suddenly wants to.
7 It's way too late for that. The
8 information that he was given today changes nothing
9 in terms of how he should have handled this case,
10 planning this case, what this case is about. He's
11 known who these people are. He's had the
12 opportunity to notice them, to subpoena them. If he
13 hasn't done so, that's his own fault. But now
14 knowing what days these employees worked doesn't
15 change anything in terms of what he should have done
16 or what he needed to do to have these witnesses
17 here.
18 And, again, the Speedway witnesses, the
19 people still employed by Speedway, are all here
20 ready to testify if he wants them to. There's
21 absolutely no prejudice caused by the fact that this
22 document, which was inadvertently not produced
23 because it wasn't kept in the same place as all the
24 other records relating to the job, was not made
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
309
1 known until yesterday.
2 The prejudice here of a continuance, to
3 the contrary, is great. This would be the second
4 continuance of a hearing. As you know, there are
5 costs involved always gearing up for a hearing.
6 Even if you're already prepared, you have to go
7 through it to some extent to get ready. Mr. Kolko
8 has now flown into Chicago twice for a hearing and
9 would be required to come back yet again at a
10 substantial expense.
11 This is absurd to continue a hearing
12 because Mr. Trepanier needs less witnesses than he
13 thought he needed before. This is clearly a ruse.
14 He is not prepared to go forward, and he's just
15 trying to buy more time. The motion should be
16 denied.
17 MR. JEDDELOH: Mr. Knittle, it would seem to
18 the university that everything can be accommodated
19 here because it's not likely that the entire case is
20 going to be completed in the next day and a half,
21 and so Mr. Trepanier would be able to do what he
22 wants to do for a continued day of the hearing.
23 I would doubt that we would be able to
24 schedule another day of hearing before two weeks
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
310
1 anyway, so I think that the university would suggest
2 that we proceed with the case and let Mr. Trepanier
3 try to do what he wants to do for the next day to
4 get ready.
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Trepanier, do you
6 have a reply?
7 MR. TREPANIER: Yes.
8 Regarding the contention of Speedway that
9 it was only a week ago -- or it was a week ago that
10 I planned to call the 15, that's just not factually
11 correct.
12 But I think more importantly Speedway now
13 is contending that it was a fault of mine that I got
14 the addresses for six former employees of which only
15 half were actually working at the time that I'm
16 interested in, but apparently Speedway's contention
17 is is that I should have gone ahead and spent the
18 subpoena fees for all of these even though most of
19 them would not have been useful witnesses to me and
20 they had the information which showed that they
21 weren't useful witnesses to me.
22 But more importantly, as to the timing of
23 my receiving that letter dated March 15th which gave
24 me the addresses of the former employees, it was on
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
311
1 April 8th of 1998, this is a letter from Speedway
2 which is attached to a filing of March 11th,
3 Speedway's memorandum in opposition to Complainant
4 Trepanier motion to compel production of addresses,
5 and in that April 8th letter, April 8th, 1998,
6 Speedway clearly indicates that all 15 of their
7 employees involved with this job were currently
8 employees, and --
9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: That's not what it says.
10 Perhaps he should read the letter into the record if
11 he's going to characterize it because that's not
12 what that letter says.
13 MR. TREPANIER: And I've cited the letter --
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: After he's done,
15 we'll address it.
16 MR. TREPANIER: -- and where it is, and
17 specifically, I would address your attention to the
18 second to last paragraph wherein Mr. Blankenship
19 wrote the following: It is my understanding that
20 pursuant to the hearing officer's instruction, you
21 will not attempt to communicate with these
22 individuals directly, but rather, any communication
23 will be conducted through my office, e.g., an
24 appropriate notice of deposition.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
312
1 Mr. Blankenship very clearly indicated
2 that these people were employees, that he had a
3 right to notice if I were to speak to these people,
4 and that was as of April 8th, 1998, and that was not
5 updated until I filed my notice asking him to
6 actually bring these employees to the hearing room
7 that he informed me that they were not employees.
8 He has not -- he has not said that they
9 stopped working after April 8th, 1998. And, in
10 fact, it's statistically unlikely that all six of
11 these people stopped working after April 8th, 1998,
12 because the job occurred in September of '96. So
13 most of the time between the job and this hearing
14 occurred past prior to Marshall writing the letter
15 of April 8th, 1998, where he clearly indicates that
16 all of these people were his employees, and he has
17 not stated that they were not employees at the time
18 that he wrote that April 8th, 1998, letter. So I
19 think that his claiming that the -- my receiving
20 addresses as late as I did was, in fact, because of
21 the representations of Speedway.
22 Also, Speedway has mentioned that there's
23 been -- that this would be the second continuance of
24 this hearing. Well, the first continuance was at
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
313
1 the request of the Respondent.
2 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Not Speedway.
3 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, it was to accommodate
4 scheduling to handle several matters, including some
5 things that needed to be decided for you,
6 Mr. Trepanier.
7 MR. TREPANIER: I haven't completed my
8 statement, but that was -- the first continuance was
9 granted at the request of the Respondent, and now a
10 Complainant has asked for a continuance, and if that
11 were the only argument, fairness would dictate that
12 a Complainant also have a continuance.
13 References to a 201(k) conference, I can't
14 speak to that because that is just a code word to
15 me, and I see that it is listed on the April 8th,
16 1998, letter, but as to what it means -- what it
17 would mean to the board or what it means to Speedway
18 is unclear to me.
19 And regarding the request from the
20 University of Illinois, the University of Illinois
21 themselves has come in and asked for a continuance
22 in this case, and now they are suggesting that the
23 actions of the Respondents determined the order of
24 the Complainants' case, and that's not fair. It's
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
314
1 up to the Complainants to determine the order in the
2 presentation of their case and not to do it at the
3 convenience only of the Respondents, particularly
4 when the Respondents are accomplishing that through
5 withholding information during discovery.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Mr. Blankenship,
7 do you have a response?
8 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yes, a short response.
9 Two points: When that letter was sent
10 last year, all it says is that these were the
11 Speedway employees who worked on the job. Those
12 were the Speedway employees that worked on the job.
13 All of this discussion, I thought, had been resolved
14 with your ruling on the motion to compel the
15 addresses.
16 I wonder if Mr. Trepanier has tried to
17 contact any of those former employees. I have.
18 I've not been able to reach any of them. I don't
19 believe they're still there, still at those
20 addresses. I think continuing would be a futile
21 exercise because I think these people are long gone,
22 but I would like to hear if Mr. Trepanier has even
23 tried to contact them let alone subpoena them.
24 He knew all the names, and he intended to
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
315
1 call them all. He gave us a notice to produce 15
2 people, and we fought over addresses, and for him to
3 now come and say this is suddenly new, I want to
4 subpoena these people is ridiculous. He fully
5 intended to call them all two weeks ago, and now
6 knowing a particular day that they worked doesn't
7 change anything.
8 He wants to elicit testimony as to what
9 happened on the job site. That's what he always
10 wanted to do. That's what he always intended to
11 do. He should have subpoenaed them. Knowing one
12 particular day in which most of the employees --
13 many of the employees worked is not a reason to
14 continue this.
15 We are going now --
16 MS. MINNICK: Can we object to that, to what
17 he's saying?
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Let him finish his
19 argument.
20 MS. MINNICK: All right.
21 MR. BLANKENSHIP: We've waited two years for
22 this hearing. We've spent a lot of time and money
23 fighting this case, preparing for it, and this is
24 simply not a reasonable justification. It doesn't
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
316
1 make any sense that because he has to call less
2 witnesses we need to continue the hearing for two
3 weeks. It makes no sense at all.
4 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Mr. Trepanier,
5 not yet. I have a couple questions.
6 What are the witnesses identified on that
7 September 9th or what are the employees?
8 MR. TREPANIER: There are just six out of 15,
9 so it's a small minority.
10 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, of the six,
11 were they on your notice list of witnesses?
12 MR. TREPANIER: Yes, they were.
13 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: All six of them
14 were?
15 MR. TREPANIER: I believe so.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: And of the six, how
17 many are no longer -- are employed by Speedway?
18 MR. TREPANIER: Half of them.
19 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Can you hand me
20 that? I just want to make sure.
21 (Document tendered.)
22 MR. TREPANIER: This is the September 9th
23 listing the six. This was the April 8th letter
24 naming the 15 employees.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
317
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Where is the --
2 MR. TREPANIER: This is the list of the
3 nonemployees.
4 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. So we've
5 got --
6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Mr. Sandoval, who was a
7 laborer, is no longer employed.
8 MR. TREPANIER: As we can see, also the foreman
9 is identified as a laborer.
10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Mr. Guzman is no longer
11 employed. And Gustano Ortiz is no longer employed.
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Is this other Ortiz
13 still employed?
14 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yes.
15 MR. TREPANIER: But we won't be interested in
16 the one whose brother still works, so that's where
17 it's leaving me, too.
18 MR. BLANKENSHIP: He's got the foreman and two
19 laborers presently employed by Speedway. The other
20 three were laborers who he knew about last March
21 were no longer employed.
22 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Do we know which ones
23 are no longer employed?
24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: It's not reflected there, but
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
318
1 that's who's been discussed yesterday, and the other
2 three who were no longer employed laborers, he knew
3 about that back in the early part of this year.
4 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: All right. First of
5 all, Mr. Trepanier, you're going to have to file
6 that as a written motion. I was incorrect. If
7 there's a motion for a continuance, we need a
8 written motion before the board and the hearing
9 officer.
10 MR. TREPANIER: I've got that pretty well
11 prepared now.
12 Also, Marshall brought up a couple of
13 questions that need specific address.
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to give
15 Ms. --
16 MS. MINNICK: Minnick.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: How do you spell
18 that, Ms. Minnick?
19 MS. MINNICK: M-i-n-n-i-c-k.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm sorry.
21 MS. MINNICK: No. It's a good name.
22 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Ms. Minnick, do you
23 have something you wanted to add? You haven't spoke
24 to this yet.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
319
1 MS. MINNICK: Well, yeah. Would I be able to
2 ask questions? I'm not sure what the format here
3 is, but I would be wondering, these -- I didn't know
4 that these employees were no longer employed, so
5 there were only ten employees that I think he said,
6 that were doing this job, and six of them aren't
7 there anymore?
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: On this specific day
9 involved --
10 MS. MINNICK: Oh. On the specific day
11 involved.
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: -- there were six
13 employees, I think, involved at the site, and three
14 of them -- no -- seven, and three of them are no
15 longer there.
16 MR. TREPANIER: Yeah. There is six.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Six.
18 MS. MINNICK: Okay. And also, the objection I
19 had was might we object that to come to the
20 conclusion of what Lionel's intentions are to do --
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, he can make
22 arguments as to what he thinks Mr. Trepanier's
23 intentions are.
24 MS. MINNICK: Is it our responsibility to
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
320
1 respond to those immediately or --
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right, but I think
3 Mr. Trepanier has put forth what his intentions are
4 and why he thinks he needs this information and why
5 he thinks he's prejudiced by not receiving it in a
6 more timely fashion.
7 MS. MINNICK: Then that's all I have to say
8 then.
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I don't want any more
10 argument on this.
11 Continuances are governed by 103.143 of
12 the board's rules and can be granted by the hearing
13 officer whenever justice may require, which is
14 pretty vague phrased to say the least. What I see
15 here, though, is I want to -- Mr. Trepanier, before
16 I get started, did you, in fact, contact any of the
17 nonemployees?
18 MR. TREPANIER: I'm glad you asked me that
19 because that's something I wanted to respond to.
20 When I was given the disclosure of the
21 nonemployees, which was sometime, I think, in March,
22 I don't have that document right with me, but that
23 date -- these were disclosed as nonemployees without
24 addresses, and I used a computer database at the
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
321
1 public library, and I got -- and for these names, I
2 pulled up several pages with, oh, probably near 50
3 names per page just for several of the names. Some
4 of the names, I couldn't put them in a document and
5 be under the printing requirement at the library
6 because there were so many of those names. They
7 were just so common.
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Did you,
9 though, in fact, contact any of these nonemployees?
10 MR. TREPANIER: Then when I had -- well, I did
11 it not with a phone number.
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Did you send them a
13 letter?
14 MR. TREPANIER: Then when I received their
15 addresses --
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Hold on,
17 Mr. Trepanier.
18 MR. TREPANIER: I haven't sent a letter.
19 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Have you tried to
20 contact them by phone? You said no.
21 MR. TREPANIER: I don't have a phone number for
22 them, no good phone numbers.
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay.
24 MR. TREPANIER: But the lack of a letter is
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
322
1 merely cause of the date that I learned of their
2 addresses.
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Understood, but my
4 question was just have you tried to contact them.
5 Well, I'm going to deny the motion to
6 continue the hearing at this point. I don't think
7 there's a lot of prejudice here, Mr. Trepanier,
8 since you did have all the names beforehand and you
9 did have ample opportunity to contact these people
10 if you so desired.
11 I am going to give you leave at the end of
12 the hearing if you want to renew your motion to
13 continue the hearing and for leave to reopen your
14 case and call those -- I think it's two specific
15 witnesses -- three, excuse me, Sandoval, Guzman, and
16 G. Ortiz. You can renew that motion at the end of
17 the hearing and see what we say, and if I think that
18 your case has been prejudiced by not having these
19 people available, you know, I'll reconsider it. But
20 as for now, your motion to continue the hearing is
21 denied. So let's move on.
22 Mr. Trepanier, it's still your case. I
23 have -- well, let's just move on to the tape here.
24 I have reviewed the tape which has not been offered
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
323
1 as an exhibit yet. I'm assuming, Mr. Trepanier, you
2 are intending to offer this as an exhibit at some
3 point.
4 MR. TREPANIER: That's correct.
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Why don't you -- just
6 to keep this procedurally correct, let me mark this
7 as Complainants' Exhibit Number 2 and assume what
8 foundation you wanted to lay for this exhibit was
9 laid yesterday.
10 (Complainants' Exhibit No. 2 marked
11 for identification, 3-24-99.)
12 MR. TREPANIER: Well, I think that we had -- I
13 had a witness on the stand, and I want to redirect
14 him.
15 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes, but your witness
16 is not here, and it is now 10:00 o'clock. The trial
17 was noticed for 9:30, and I don't see any reason to
18 continue this for him to appear. He was aware that
19 we were supposed to be here, and Ms. Minnick --
20 MS. MINNICK: Yes.
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: -- you stated that he
22 was trying -- this morning he informed you he was
23 going to be at the hearing.
24 MS. MINNICK: Yeah.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
324
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Trepanier, this
2 is where we're at. I'm going to rule on the tape
3 now.
4 MR. TREPANIER: Could I call another witness?
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: About the tape? If
6 this is pertaining to the foundation of the tape,
7 what witness are you planning on calling?
8 MR. TREPANIER: Myself.
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Does it relate to the
10 videotape?
11 MR. TREPANIER: Yes. I'm going to call myself
12 as it relates to the videotape.
13 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. I'll allow
14 that strictly as it relates to the videotape, and I
15 will caution you to keep it brief.
16 Do you want to swear in Mr. Trepanier for
17 me, please?
18 MR. JEDDELOH: I think he was sworn.
19 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I would like to
20 reswear them each day. I know we're kind of
21 continuing on the hearing. With the exception of
22 Mr. Joseph, I don't think that would bother
23 anybody.
24 Mr. Trepanier, could you raise your right
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
325
1 hand? Could you swear in the witness, please?
2 (The witness was duly sworn.)
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: All right.
4 Mr. Trepanier.
5 LIONEL TREPANIER,
6 called as a witness herein, having been first duly
7 sworn, was examined upon oral interrogatories, and
8 testified as follows:
9 DIRECT EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. TREPANIER:
11 Q All right. I have the -- what has been
12 marked as Complainants' Exhibit 2, the 1261 evidence
13 tape, and this is a videotape I want to introduce
14 because it shows -- it has several very relevant
15 pieces of information on it --
16 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, I'm going to object to him
17 testifying about what the tape shows. We're in now
18 the voir dire on the foundation as it were. I think
19 he can testify if he has any relevant knowledge
20 about how it was prepared and the circumstances
21 behind that, but at this point for him to try to
22 read into the record his views about what the tape
23 shows is highly prejudicial. If the tape is
24 admitted into evidence, it will speak for itself?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
326
1 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Same objection. If he wants
2 to argue relevance, that's argument, not testimony.
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. I'm going to
4 overrule the objections and give him a little leeway
5 but just a little bit of leeway here, Mr. Trepanier,
6 in light of the fact that we had a fair amount of
7 discussion yesterday about what was on the tape and
8 what was said on the tape.
9 MR. TREPANIER: Okay.
10 BY MR. TREPANIER:
11 Q The tape shows what yesterday was claimed
12 to be for the first time that they had pollution
13 control boards during this demolition. All during
14 discovery there was no disclosure that they used
15 boards. After numerous questions, always it was
16 only water. Yesterday they said boards.
17 Now, the tape shows this -- what I believe
18 what they're claiming to be a pollution control
19 device, so that's an important piece that's on this
20 table.
21 This tape also shows a bobcat up inside of
22 a building, and the pictures around that bobcat, I
23 think, call into question -- potentially call into
24 question yesterday's testimony that the wrecking
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
327
1 that was going on in the building was hand
2 wrecking.
3 Also, this tape shows activity on
4 September 9th, '96, of dust and demolition debris
5 being dumped uncontrolled out the rear of the
6 building, and I saw that tape being made.
7 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. I'm going to
8 interrupt -- excuse me, Mr. Trepanier. Oh. Go
9 ahead.
10 BY MR. TREPANIER:
11 Q I saw that tape being made on the 9th of
12 September, and I know that this accurately depicts
13 in time lapse fashion what was occurring at that
14 site and on that date, and I saw the tape be dumped
15 and that was and -- and nothing was left out that
16 would have -- that was in a way -- more relevant
17 than what's on the tape.
18 I think we might find the tape may have
19 material that some would find objectionable, but yet
20 at the same time, they argue for more objectionable
21 material to be given to them, so I think this tape
22 is going to be very probative and important for the
23 board to see.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. I'll give you
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
328
1 an opportunity to respond to Mr. Trepanier.
2 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I just have one redirect
3 question -- a couple.
4 CROSS EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. BLANKENSHIP:
6 Q Mr. Trepanier, you were only actually
7 observing the demolition on September 9th for one
8 hour, right?
9 A I was -- I was present there on
10 September 9th, and I saw --
11 Q For about one hour, right?
12 A At this time, I'm not recalling if it was
13 one hour.
14 Q Well, did you recall when I asked you that
15 question at your deposition?
16 MR. TREPANIER: I would object to his using the
17 deposition as it doesn't meet the board's rules that
18 a deposition be signed. It's a very specific rule
19 that if a deposition is going to be used at a
20 hearing, it has to be signed by the person.
21 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'm not seeking to introduce
22 the deposition. I'm going to impeach his
23 testimony.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to allow
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
329
1 him to continue, Mr. Trepanier.
2 BY MR. BLANKENSHIP:
3 Q Mr. Trepanier, you gave a deposition in
4 this case, did you not?
5 A Yes, I did.
6 Q There were two sessions of that, one on
7 September 16th and one on April 10th; is that right?
8 A I don't recall the dates specific.
9 Q Okay. And you were under oath at that
10 deposition?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And it was your endeavor at that
13 deposition to give truthful testimony?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q Okay. Did you give this answer to this
16 question at your deposition, it's on page 225: How
17 long were you observing on the 9th? Answer, it was
18 pretty short, an hour.
19 Did you give that answer to that question?
20 A If you could show me the deposition, I
21 could see if I did.
22 (Brief pause.)
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Trepanier?
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
330
1 BY MR. TREPANIER:
2 A Yeah. I see that question and that answer
3 reflected there.
4 BY MR. BLANKENSHIP:
5 Q And did you give that answer to that
6 question at the deposition?
7 A I don't know how to handle when you're
8 asking me this right now. I can see that it's
9 there. I don't have an independent memory of giving
10 that answer.
11 Q Are you contending that the court reporter
12 was inaccurate?
13 A No. That's not my contention.
14 Q You were given an opportunity to review
15 this transcript, were you not?
16 A Not a fair opportunity.
17 Q You were told by the court reporter that
18 you could come and look at the transcript and that
19 you should review it for errors and make corrections
20 to it, were you not?
21 A At her convenience.
22 Q Yes. And you didn't do that, did you?
23 A I tried to look at it, and I had only a
24 short period of time to look at it, and it was about
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
331
1 400 pages.
2 Q Having been shown your deposition
3 testimony that you were only there for about an hour
4 on the 9th, is it still your contention that you
5 were there the whole day?
6 A I don't think I did contend even here
7 today that I was there the whole day.
8 Q Well, the time lapse was of the whole day,
9 was it not?
10 A I believe that it is.
11 Q And you contended that the time lapse
12 accurately reflected what you saw on the demolition
13 on the 9th, did you not?
14 A Yeah, and that's correct.
15 Q And you only saw an hour of the demolition,
16 so you don't know whether that whole tape actually
17 reflects what happened or not, do you?
18 A Well, the -- I didn't testify that I saw
19 everything in that tape. There's multiple days on
20 that tape.
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Trepanier, try to
22 answer the question as put to you, please.
23 BY MR. BLANKENSHIP:
24 Q You can't speak to whether that tape
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
332
1 accurately reflects the demolition activities for
2 the entire time period that is on that tape, right?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q You can only testify as to the hour that
5 you were there?
6 A Is that a question?
7 Q Yes, that's a question.
8 Correct?
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: That is a question.
10 BY MR. TREPANIER:
11 A Well, I think that you're asking for a
12 conclusion of law. What I can testify to --
13 BY MR. BLANKENSHIP:
14 Q Well, you're only able to --
15 A I'm not the hearing officer.
16 Q You're only able to offer an opinion as to
17 the accuracy of that tape for the one hour that you
18 were actually on the job site, correct?
19 A I can understand that, yes.
20 Q Will you agree with that?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Thank you.
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay.
24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I don't think I need to
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
333
1 repeat all the arguments that we made.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Did you want to say
3 anything, Mr. Jeddeloh?
4 MR. JEDDELOH: I think the record, Mr. Knittle,
5 is very complete at this point on that tape.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. I'm -- here's
7 what I am going to do with the tape. I reviewed the
8 tape last night, and of the -- and I don't know how
9 long it was. I didn't time it. Most of the tape is
10 not relevant and is inadmissible, and I'm not going
11 to allow it.
12 What I am going to allow is -- the time
13 lapse photography that took place on September 9th,
14 1999, I'm going to allow that to be entered into the
15 record, and we're going to show that if they want to
16 show that particular portion of it, but the rest of
17 the tape -- any other part that is not September
18 9th, 1999, and is not part and parcel of the time
19 lapse photography is not being admitted into
20 evidence.
21 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I would request then that if
22 they actually submit a physical tape to the record
23 that it be an edited version that doesn't contain
24 those portions.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
334
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right, and I
2 understand your request. I don't know if that's
3 going to be possible, and I'm not going to require
4 that to be possible. The board, often times,
5 receives things that they don't consider and is more
6 than capable of not considering things directed not
7 to consider.
8 (Whereupon, Mr. Joseph entered the
9 hearing room.)
10 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: So if that's not
11 possible, you don't have to do that, but if you do
12 have the opportunity to do that, I would appreciate
13 that.
14 Is it your intention now to enter the
15 exhibit into the record?
16 MR. JEDDELOH: One question, if I could,
17 please.
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: The decision on the
19 tape has been made, but yes.
20 MR. JEDDELOH: In terms of your decision,
21 Mr. Knittle, would that exclude the commentary that
22 runs through the tape?
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, all the
24 commentary not part of the September 9th, 1999, time
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
335
1 lapse photography is excluded as is the rest of it.
2 Now, I don't recall more than a couple
3 words of commentary during the time lapse
4 photography segment of September 9th. Are you
5 suggesting that that should be excluded as well?
6 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm suggesting that all
7 commentary be excluded because clearly by that time
8 it was advocacy, not the collection of evidence, and
9 I don't see any reason in the world why they can't
10 submit a tape which is free and clear of all of this
11 pejorative commentary.
12 MR. TREPANIER: I would like to respond to what
13 he's saying.
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm making the ruling
15 now.
16 MR. TREPANIER: Without argument?
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: We've had a lot of
18 argument on this, Mr. Trepanier.
19 MR. TREPANIER: But not about the audio clip
20 during the dumping. I believe that the audio clip
21 during the dumping is useful --
22 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I will give you a
23 45-second response time here.
24 MR. TREPANIER: -- in that you can actually
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
336
1 hear the sounds of the material being dumped off the
2 building. You can hear the sounds of the wind. And
3 as you notice, there isn't, as the attorney says,
4 pejorative statements on that tape. So there's good
5 evidence value, and there is not a prejudicial
6 element.
7 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I disagree. I'm
8 going to grant Mr. Jeddeloh's amendment to my
9 ruling, if that's the correct terminology.
10 The tape will be admitted as I previously
11 set forth with the exception that none of the audio
12 will be admitted into evidence, and I'll direct the
13 board to take the appropriate precautions of making
14 sure the volume is turned down when they view the
15 tape.
16 MR. TREPANIER: Can I ask a question of the
17 hearing officer?
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes, sir.
19 MR. TREPANIER: You didn't, in your ruling,
20 respond to the issues that I raised regarding that
21 this video depicts what Speedway yesterday for the
22 first time in this case claimed as a pollution
23 control device, which was--
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I don't think --
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
337
1 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Let me object. Speedway did
2 not claim it had a pollution control device. It
3 came up as a different matter that also had a
4 secondary effect of controlling some dust, but it
5 was never claimed to be a pollution control device.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Trepanier, I
7 don't think appropriate foundation has been laid for
8 that part of the tape, and in addition, there's no
9 time and no date on that part of the tape. I'm not
10 sure of the propriety of the tape itself at that
11 particular juncture, and for all those reasons I did
12 consider that, and I'm still denying the admission
13 of that part of the tape. Okay?
14 MR. TREPANIER: Well, the --
15 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: This is beyond --
16 this is beyond argument at this point. I've made
17 the decision, and this is what's going to be entered
18 into the record.
19 MS. MINNICK: May I ask a question, though,
20 anyway?
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. You can ask a
22 question.
23 MS. MINNICK: Is noise considered pollution?
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. Noise is
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
338
1 definitely considered pollution, but that's not an
2 allegation of this complaint and is not involved in
3 this particular matter.
4 MS. MINNICK: I see. Thank you.
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Not all noise, by the
6 way.
7 So, Mr. Trepanier, if you want to show
8 that portion of the tape which was admitted, we have
9 a facility TV and a VCR that I brought in for you.
10 I'm accepting that tape into evidence then. Why
11 don't you officially offer it into evidence?
12 MR. TREPANIER: I move the tape into evidence,
13 Exhibit Number 2.
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to accept
15 Complainants' Exhibit Number 2, which is a video
16 taped entitled Aunt Jemima buttermilk biscuits and
17 Max demo evidence tape. With the exceptions as I've
18 outlined on the record, this tape is accepted into
19 evidence.
20 (Complainants' Exhibit No. 2 admitted
21 into evidence.)
22 MR. JEDDELOH: Could we just have the record
23 reflect that it's over the objections of the
24 Respondents?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
339
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I will note your
2 objections, and they are -- were made fully on the
3 record both yesterday and today.
4 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Thank you.
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Can I have a second,
6 please? Let's take a five-minute recess.
7 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.)
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Let's go on record.
9 We're back on record, and we're having a
10 bit of a discussion off the record. I think it's
11 better had on the record concerning the use of the
12 videotape that Mr. Joseph, one of the Complainants,
13 is attempting to videotape these proceeding.
14 First of all, I think Mr. Jeddeloh had
15 some objections to this that he wanted to make.
16 MR. JEDDELOH: Right.
17 Right now, the videotape is set up so that
18 it pans not on Mr. Joseph in taking his testimony
19 but on a wider scope of activity and not really on
20 anything -- any testimony that he might give, and it
21 would seem to me from the appearance of the angle
22 that it would be in a position to allow them to
23 record the hearing officer in performing his
24 function in taking his notes, and I just think it's
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
340
1 inappropriate. I think it's well within the power
2 of the hearing officer in maintaining decorum in
3 this proceeding to direct them not to do this. This
4 is obviously a side show. They're trying to turn
5 this more into a circus than it already is. I just
6 think it's totally inappropriate.
7 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Mr. Joseph,
8 why are you wanting to tape this and why is the
9 video camera in a different place than it was
10 yesterday?
11 MR. JOSEPH: Okay. First of all, it is a
12 different angle, and it is a wide angle of the
13 entire proceeding. This is not a circus. There's
14 no panning involved. It is just a straight, wide
15 angle shot to capture the proceedings.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Could we do that from
17 another angle?
18 MR. JOSEPH: Sure. I could take another
19 angle.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Could we do that from
21 back in that corner there? That might alleviate
22 some of the Mr. Jeddeloh's --
23 MR. JOSEPH: I'm trying to get the monitor in
24 there so that I have -- with what we're discussing.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
341
1 Believe me, you're not going to be able to read your
2 notes on an eight-millimeter tape.
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Let's leave this as
4 it is now until the tape is no longer running. Then
5 I'm going to request that you move it back to where
6 it was before. How about that?
7 MR. JOSEPH: All right. Fine. There's not
8 enough detail on an eight-millimeter tape to read
9 your notes if that's what your concern is.
10 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, I don't need to take that
11 risk. This is just totally inappropriate.
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right, and I
13 understand, and I'm relying on --
14 MR. JOSEPH: Excuse me --
15 HEARING OFFICER: Excuse me, Mr. Joseph. Give
16 me a second here.
17 I'm relying on section 101.221 of hearing
18 decorum which allows for the taping of the
19 proceedings by tape, film, or other means. If the
20 hearing officer determines that the recording is
21 disruptive or detrimental to the record, I can limit
22 or prohibit that, and I'm going to have it moved
23 back to where it was before after the showing of the
24 tape. But I think he's within his rights to tape
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
342
1 himself talking about the videotape that's being
2 showed, so let's get on with that then.
3 Also, I was just given a memo from our
4 clerk upstairs relating to a motion to quash that
5 was sent by the Illinois Environmental Protection
6 Agency. Apparently, Mr. Trepanier had subpoenaed
7 one of their witnesses, and that witness in specific
8 is -- well, this is all goofed up here. That
9 witness in specific is Ed Bakowski, E-d,
10 B-a-k-o-w-s-k-i.
11 I'm going to grant the motion to quash in
12 light of the fact that certified records from the
13 EPA apparently have been sent up, and I think those
14 records will prove sufficient. So the motion to
15 quash is going to be granted, and we will admit the
16 records subject, of course, to any objections and
17 arguments that you guys have.
18 MR. BLANKENSHIP: But this is --
19 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I understand. This
20 is merely -- he wants an answer to his motion to
21 quash, and I don't blame him. He has to get his
22 witness up here, if, in fact, he's needed to support
23 and lay foundation for these records. I'm going to
24 grant the motion to quash.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
343
1 Mr. Trepanier, if we have trouble with the
2 certified public records and it proves necessary to
3 have this witness up here to do that, you can
4 revisit that at that time.
5 MR. TREPANIER: Thank you.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Mr. Trepanier,
7 it is your case.
8 MR. JEDDELOH: I believe that Mr. Joseph --
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Joseph is on the
10 stand. We're going to have him testify.
11 Mr. Joseph?
12 MR. JOSEPH: Yes.
13 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Joseph?
14 MR. JOSEPH: Well, first of all, I'm going to
15 set this up.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to make you
17 make another affirmation here.
18 MR. JOSEPH: Okay. Do you want me to get this
19 ready or what?
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I want you to sit
21 down until we do this.
22 I've done some research, and there's an
23 alternative to the oath that you can take. Do you
24 solemnly, sincerely, and truly declare and affirm to
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
344
1 tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
2 MR. JOSEPH: Okay. It's my understanding that
3 the word affirm is just like swearing, and it's
4 against my will to take an oath. It's against my
5 will to swear. It's kind of like -- the way I
6 interpret, it's kind of like playing God and --
7 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: So you will not
8 solemnly, sincerely, and truly declare and affirm?
9 MR. JOSEPH: I will solemn --
10 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Are you going to use
11 the words that I have read to you? And this is your
12 decision, mind you.
13 So you're saying that you will not
14 solemnly, sincerely, and truly declare and affirm?
15 MR. JOSEPH: Well, I'm not sure what you mean
16 by affirm. That's like --
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Joseph, I'm just
18 reading the language that I found in the state of
19 Illinois statute, and I'm asking you for the record
20 whether or not you will say those words.
21 MR. JOSEPH: I think that if --
22 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: And I'm asking for a
23 yes or no answer. I'll give you a chance to explain
24 after you answer yes or no.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
345
1 MR. JOSEPH: No.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Now, why not?
3 MR. JOSEPH: Because I believe that to affirm
4 in my interpretation is being absolute, and in the
5 scripture it says that for all men are liars like
6 God be true but your yea be yea and your nay be nay,
7 and that's how I feel, and I want to be sincere.
8 And I think it's important that people start
9 thinking about what they're saying and the rituals
10 they're going through, and I hope you don't take
11 that personally.
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Not at all, sir. I
13 just want you to be aware of the risk that's
14 involved here if the Pollution Control Board decides
15 that your testimony is not sufficiently trustworthy
16 because you are required under the board rules to be
17 sworn in as a witness, and then if that is not a
18 possibility, you're required under the Illinois
19 state statute to say the words that I've read to
20 you. Then your testimony may not be considered by
21 the board. I don't know.
22 MR. JEDDELOH: Let me join the issue on behalf
23 of the university in moving to strike everything
24 that Mr. Joseph has already said.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
346
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, there's already
2 a continuing objection that you guys made yesterday
3 to all his testimony.
4 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And I'll join that motion and
5 say it also applies to the video since he's the
6 foundation for the video. So if his testimony
7 falls, I think, at least to this point, the video
8 falls as well.
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, and I think
10 Mr. Trepanier laid some testimony as well, and I
11 would admit it under Mr. Trepanier's foundation as
12 well.
13 However, Mr. Joseph, that is a risk, and
14 the board may not agree with me, and the board is
15 definitely capable of striking both your testimony
16 and the videotape in light of the fact that you
17 won't take an oath. I respect your decision, but
18 let's move on.
19 Can you give the same oath that you
20 gave -- excuse me -- the same guarantee that you
21 gave yesterday that you will tell the truth.
22 MR. JOSEPH: I will testify to the best of my
23 knowledge as my memory serves me.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Under penalty of
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
347
1 perjury?
2 MR. JOSEPH: Under penalty of perjury and to be
3 as truthful as I can within my capacity.
4 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. I'm going to
5 allow your testimony understanding, of course, that
6 you have continuing objections against your
7 testimony.
8 Okay. Let's proceed.
9 MR. JOSEPH: And I just -- I want to add
10 something to that.
11 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Is this relating to
12 the tape?
13 MR. JOSEPH: Well, it's kind of relating to the
14 tape. Maybe it could wait then. It kind of ties
15 together with all this because I said some things
16 about the tape, and if I would have affirmed or
17 swore --
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, this issue has
19 been decided. I understand. Let's move on. We
20 have a lot of things to go through here, and I want
21 to get moving as quick as we possibly can.
22 So, Mr. Joseph, you are still on the
23 stand --
24 MR. JOSEPH: Okay.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
348
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: -- as your own
2 witness, and Mr. Trepanier's, but why don't we let
3 Mr. Trepanier run this right now?
4 MR. TREPANIER: Thank you.
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: He's your witness,
6 Mr. Trepanier.
7 MR. JOSEPH: Can maybe I ask a little question,
8 too? If I was being cross examined or something and
9 I wanted to object myself, could you give me some
10 guidelines on that, asking myself questions, those
11 two issues here? I'm a little concerned.
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, as your own
13 attorney, things get a little dicey at times, and
14 you can object, but I'm going to want you to then
15 answer the question, if, in fact, I overrule any
16 objection you make.
17 MR. JOSEPH: That's fine. If something gets
18 far afield, I might want to, you know...
19 Well, let's try this. All right. In that
20 case, I'm going to -- I'll call myself as a
21 witness.
22 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm sorry. I believe that the
23 current status of the record is that Mr. Trepanier
24 has called him as a witness.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
349
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right. I think
2 you're Mr. Trepanier's witness at the moment. Do
3 you not want to be Mr. Trepanier's witness?
4 MR. JEDDELOH: I think it's more a question of
5 what --
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, we're giving
7 them some leeway here to try to get this done.
8 MR. JEDDELOH: Sorry.
9 MR. JOSEPH: Can we both call myself so that I
10 can --
11 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, you're the
12 witness.
13 MR. JOSEPH: We're trying to solve a problem.
14 We're not -- we would like the university to obey
15 the laws, and they have been graced with --
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Hold it.
17 MR. JOSEPH: As my own attorney, I'm saying
18 that they've been graced with --
19 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to object to him
20 providing pejorative arguments as part of his
21 testimony.
22 MR. JOSEPH: Well, I'm counsel for myself at
23 this point now.
24 MR. JEDDELOH: But this is not the time for
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
350
1 argumentation.
2 MR. JOSEPH: I'm asking what's your objection
3 because --
4 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right, but I don't
5 want anyone -- hold it. I don't want anyone to talk
6 for a minute here.
7 I want you to -- I want you to go up to
8 the VCR. We're going to show the VCR. I want to
9 start getting into that. I don't want to be too
10 long on this particular issue.
11 Mr. Trepanier can ask you questions while
12 you're up at the VCR, and if you feel the need to,
13 you can testify on your own.
14 MR. JOSEPH: Okay. There's a lot of things I
15 would like to say, and I don't want to be disruptive,
16 but I really want to get them in because --
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: You'll have that
18 opportunity.
19 MR. JOSEPH: All right.
20 MR. TREPANIER: Do I understand you want to
21 testify while you're showing the video?
22 MR. JOSEPH: Well, I think that would probably
23 be a good idea to get the full effect.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: We're just going to
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
351
1 show the video. You can testify about it afterwards,
2 if you'd like.
3 MR. JOSEPH: Okay.
4 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: So why don't we show
5 the video now?
6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'm not sure if Mr. Joseph
7 was here when you made your ruling as to what parts
8 were inadmissible.
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Joseph, do you
10 understand what we can show?
11 MR. JOSEPH: Okay. Let me, first of all, say
12 that I apologize for being late here this morning.
13 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: No. That's okay.
14 Don't worry about it.
15 MR. JOSEPH: I want to clarify on the record
16 that I was supposed to get a ride. Then I had to
17 take a bus. I got here. I came up here. I had the
18 wrong room, and there was a bunch stuff, and they
19 had the elevator locked down.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Understood.
21 Let's show the video. Mr. Trepanier, make
22 sure that he only shows that part of the video that
23 we have allowed and make sure there's no sound on.
24 And we only want September 9th, if you recall.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
352
1 MR. BLANKENSHIP: While they're doing that, we
2 still have not been told what witnesses he's going
3 to want from us or the university.
4 MR. TREPANIER: I'm ready to address that.
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: All right. Let's go
6 off the record.
7 (Whereupon, a discussion was held off
8 the record.)
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Let's go back on the
10 record. We're back on the record.
11 We are now set to view the tape, that part
12 of the tape that's been admitted into evidence,
13 which is the time lapse photography of the
14 demolition that occurred on September 9th, 1999,
15 with no audio.
16 Mr. Joseph, can you start the tape,
17 please?
18 MR. JOSEPH: Sure.
19 (Whereupon, a videotape was presented
20 to the attendees of the hearing, and
21 no proceedings were had during
22 presentation.)
23 MR. JOSEPH: I'm not allowed to ask questions
24 during the video?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
353
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: We're going to -- do
2 you have an objection if they talk during the
3 videotape showing?
4 MR. JEDDELOH: I would object. I would like to
5 see this again.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Let's wait
7 until afterwards. Then you can testify about it.
8 (Whereupon, a videotape was presented
9 to the attendees of the hearing, and
10 no proceedings were had during
11 presentation.)
12 HEARING OFFICER: This is time lapse photography,
13 and this part of the tape is not being admitted, so,
14 Mr. Joseph, could you please turn off the tape?
15 MR. JOSEPH: Sure.
16 MR. TREPANIER: You haven't said on your order
17 why this shouldn't be admitted. We see a front
18 louder pushing stuff up to the windows.
19 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, first of all, I'm going to
20 object. I ask that that statement by Mr. Trepanier
21 being stricken from the record. He is now
22 testifying about a piece of evidence that was
23 specifically excluded from the hearing.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: That objection is
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
354
1 sustained. I've already ruled on this,
2 Mr. Trepanier. I don't think that a sufficient
3 foundation was laid, I don't think it's relevant,
4 and I don't think it's a clear and accurate
5 depiction of the scene at that point in time.
6 MR. TREPANIER: And as to that evidence, when I
7 prepare a foundation, can I bring it back to you?
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I don't think there --
9 I'm not going to revisit this issue on the tape.
10 You always have the opportunity to file a motion
11 appealing my decision with the Illinois Pollution
12 Control Board, and if the tape is -- if you feel
13 strongly about that, I urge you to go ahead and do
14 that.
15 Okay. Mr. Joseph, you are on the stand.
16 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, two things. Could we move
17 that machine back into the corner where you
18 directed?
19 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes, sir. Let's go
20 off the record while we move the videotape machine
21 back to its previous position.
22 (Whereupon, a discussion was held off
23 the record.)
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: We are back on the
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
355
1 record.
2 The videotape has been moved to its
3 previous location.
4 MR. JEDDELOH: Mr. Knittle, I thought that you
5 had instructed them to put it in the corner focusing
6 it on them as opposed to focusing it on the
7 Respondents.
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I didn't realize I
9 made that clear. What's your objection to that,
10 Mr. Joseph?
11 MR. JOSEPH: Well, I have a right to tape the
12 proceeding. I'm not -- if you're testifying and you
13 refuse, then I can understand the ruling, but I'm
14 not refusing to testify, and I'm on the stand here --
15 MR. JEDDELOH: I think the hearing officer --
16 I'm sorry.
17 MR. JOSEPH: -- and this is how I take notes,
18 so...
19 MR. JEDDELOH: I think the hearing officer has
20 the ability to control the proceedings, and I
21 believe also that it would be appropriate that any
22 tape-recording would be focused on the Complainants
23 and not the Respondents.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Blankenship, do
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
356
1 you have a preference?
2 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yes. My preference is that I
3 not be videotaped. I think if -- I don't want our
4 appearances to be used in whatever propaganda he's
5 putting together with these videotapes.
6 I think in the interest of decorum if he
7 wants to videotape his side for his documentaries,
8 he's welcome to do that, but I think it's an
9 invasion of our privacy to focus solely on us as
10 opposed to on the hearing in its entirety.
11 MR. JOSEPH: Well, I would --
12 MR. TREPANIER: I'm going to add to that I
13 think that the rule is clear, you know, that if --
14 as long as it's not disrupting the proceeding -- and
15 I don't think that the Respondents by causing a
16 disruption should be able to benefit from the
17 disruption they cause by discontinuing the recording
18 of the proceeding, and I would just point out for
19 our information that if the camera were in the other
20 corner, it would be subject to the door being opened
21 on it.
22 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Is there a way we
23 could put the camera right in the middle so it's not
24 focused on the Respondents --
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
357
1 MR. JOSEPH: Well, I --
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: -- because right now,
3 Mr. Joseph, you're not being videotaped at all.
4 MR. JOSEPH: I am. It's a wide angle. It's
5 everybody.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, the back of
7 your head, though, and you are the witness who is
8 testifying.
9 MR. JOSEPH: Well, I'm basically taping the
10 whole proceeding there.
11 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, what I'm saying
12 is I don't think you are. I think you're taping the
13 Respondents here.
14 MR. JOSEPH: Well, I mean --
15 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Did you answer my
16 question? Could you put it right there?
17 MR. JOSEPH: I could.
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Would that catch
19 sight of all the proceedings?
20 MR. JOSEPH: Well, all right. Let me check
21 that. But for him to say that it's an invasion of
22 his privacy in a public hearing is a little bit out
23 of line. I thought that he was sharper than that.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, that's the
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
358
1 objection he's making.
2 MR. JOSEPH: There is no privacy in a public
3 hearing, is there?
4 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, he's not
5 making -- he may be arguing that it's an invasion of
6 his privacy. That's not the argument that I'm going
7 with here. I'm deciding that this is becoming
8 disruptive or detrimental to the hearing, and if it
9 can be placed in the middle and on the whole
10 proceeding instead of just the Respondents, I think
11 that's a fair compromise.
12 MR. JOSEPH: It actually was on us, too.
13 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Try it in the middle
14 there, Mr. Joseph.
15 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Could I maybe request that
16 the hearing officer instruct all the parties to
17 simply either to -- to abide by your wishes. We've
18 spent half an hour going over this videotape thing
19 with a lot of discourse going back and forth that I
20 think was totally unnecessary, and we're not -- we
21 haven't had any testimony. We're two and a half
22 hours into today.
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I agree. Things are
24 dragging along here.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
359
1 MR. TREPANIER: Though I did testify today.
2 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Okay. Five minutes of
3 testimony.
4 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: We had some testimony
5 on the tape, and I'm not going to make a decision or
6 a comment on whether or not they have been listening
7 to my rulings, but I would advise all parties to
8 listen to everything, all the rulings I make, and
9 you are under obligations to follow the hearing
10 officer decisions.
11 MR. JEDDELOH: Are we on the record?
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: We are still on the
13 record.
14 MR. JEDDELOH: As long as we're on the record,
15 let me just make one statement. I don't think I
16 need to ask for a ruling on this, but obviously, I
17 have a continuing objection to substantive testimony
18 being offered by any individual except Mr. Trepanier
19 in this case. That's of record, and it's been ruled
20 on by the board, but I just want to be sure that out
21 of an excess of caution that it is clearly of
22 record.
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: That is noted.
24 Are we ready to proceed, Mr. Joseph?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
360
1 MR. JOSEPH: Yes.
2 MR. JEDDELOH: Mr. Knittle, may I be permitted
3 to go and check the focus of his camera by looking
4 into lens?
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Definitely. You are
6 allowed to do that.
7 Mr. Joseph, you don't have a problem with
8 that?
9 MR. JOSEPH: Well, I really don't want him
10 touching my camera.
11 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, I don't think
12 he's going to touch it, but he should be allowed to
13 make sure.
14 Is that sufficient?
15 MR. JEDDELOH: Off the record, it looks like
16 the last supper.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Let's
18 proceed. Mr. Joseph?
19 MR. JOSEPH: What are the options?
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Joseph, are you
21 done testifying on your own behalf?
22
23
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
361
1 LORENZ JOSEPH,
2 called as a witness herein, was examined upon oral
3 interrogatories, and testified as follows:
4 DIRECT EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. JOSEPH:
6 Q I want to say a couple things. As my
7 memory serves me and is kind of in line with and I
8 think it's important to take a minute, when I looked
9 at the tape last night and reviewed it -- or this
10 morning I looked at it --
11 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to object to
12 Mr. Trepanier providing coaching to this witness
13 while he's testifying.
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'll sustain that
15 objection. Mr. Trepanier, he is testifying on his
16 own behalf, and you are not representing him in this
17 cause.
18 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And I'm going to object to
19 him just making comments on what he viewed on the
20 tape. We all saw the tape. If he has factual
21 observations that he wants to tell us, I think
22 that's appropriate testimony, but I think it's a
23 waste of time for him just to repeat that he saw
24 dust blowing on the tape. If he's just going to
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
362
1 recount what he saw on the tape, that's
2 unnecessary.
3 MR. JOSEPH: Now you're putting words into my
4 mouth. I wanted to correct what I said yesterday in
5 that --
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Hold on, hold on,
7 Mr. Joseph.
8 I'm going to allow him to testify in a
9 limited regard, Mr. Joseph. If, in fact, you have
10 another specific objection to a specific thing he
11 says, let me know.
12 BY MR. JOSEPH:
13 Q Basically what I said yesterday was
14 correct except when I reviewed the tape I saw
15 that -- and it just shows how your memory -- and you
16 don't want to swear to something because your memory
17 is not clear, and this is proven through psychology,
18 and this is a very valuable tool.
19 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Joseph, I
20 understand, but I want you to keep your testimony
21 limited to the tape and not to the swearing issue
22 and the oath issue
23 MR. JOSEPH: And I wanted to say if I would
24 have sworn --
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
363
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Hold on. I'm
2 directing you to not comment anymore on whether or
3 not an oath or swearing is inappropriate.
4 BY MR. JOSEPH:
5 Q Yesterday I was wrong. The time lapse was
6 interrupted a couple times as you could see. There
7 was time lapse at 8:00, 9:00 o'clock, and then at
8 10:00 o'clock I shut it off, and I took a shot -- an
9 actual shot. Then I zoomed in to take a shot of the
10 upper portion of the building, continued the same
11 time lapse. Then at 11:40, again, I changed the
12 shot, and then I took a shot and reset the time
13 lapse.
14 So it wasn't just straight time lapse all
15 day. There was a couple interruptions, but again, I
16 want to say that it's an accurate portrayal. I
17 wasn't -- the machine took what it took, and it
18 took -- I checked, and it was pretty close -- it was
19 taken in one-second sequences.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: This is understood,
21 and we have covered this.
22 BY MR. JOSEPH:
23 Q But I want to clarify that is correct, and
24 so if you multiplied that times 60 times the amount,
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
364
1 you would see. And if the dust was coming off the
2 second, you wouldn't miss. It would keep -- if the
3 wind was blowing, the next second it would blow
4 here, and it just keeps blowing, so I want to
5 clarify that.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Do you have any other
7 testimony?
8 BY MR. JOSEPH:
9 Q Well, I also want to say that there's
10 other shots that would show that --
11 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, I'm going to object to him
12 testifying about what other shots would show.
13 You've already ruled on it.
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Are you talking about
15 other shots that are -- were not admitted into
16 evidence on the tape?
17 MR. JOSEPH: Right. That you might have missed
18 that actually showed that there was not a hose --
19 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to object again to him
20 providing more testimony. You've ruled, Mr. Knittle.
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'll sustain the
22 objection. We can only testify -- I don't want any
23 testimony about parts of the tape that have not been
24 admitted into evidence.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
365
1 MR. JOSEPH: Okay. Something new about this?
2 MR. TREPANIER: This is your opportunity to
3 testify.
4 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Trepanier, I do
5 have to caution you once again. I am in agreement
6 with Mr. Jeddeloh on this, and you cannot coach
7 Mr. Joseph when he's testifying.
8 MR. JOSEPH: I'm kind of in a position now
9 where I -- you're making me feel like I'm afraid to
10 talk because somebody's going to jump on me or I'm
11 going to offend you, and I want to try to --
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Understood.
13 MR. JOSEPH: -- say something that's relevant.
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, Mr. Trepanier
15 will have an opportunity to direct examine you, as
16 will Ms. Minnick, if she wants to.
17 MR. JOSEPH: So you're saying I can only
18 testify on the film at this point?
19 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: No. You can testify
20 to knowledge and -- or excuse me -- to what you saw
21 and things that you saw and heard, but it has to be
22 within your realm of knowledge.
23 BY MR. JOSEPH:
24 Q I remember that day that there was no
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
366
1 hose, all right, and that -- the reason I brought
2 up -- I remember being there and filming, and there
3 was no hose running from the warehouse because I
4 walked through the gate. And as you can see in the
5 film, there are no hoses. You see -- all day you
6 see dumping. You see the wheelbarrow at one point.
7 You see nothing happening in another sequence. You
8 see something dumping. You see --
9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'm objecting to him
10 characterizing the exhibit. We've all seen the
11 exhibit.
12 BY MR. JOSEPH:
13 Q Well, I'm pointing out that there was no
14 hose. You saw no hose. There was no hose across
15 the street. And so that's it. The dust was
16 blatantly being blown. If the wind was going, it
17 would blow whichever way it went.
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Do you have any
19 further testimony on your own behalf bearing in mind
20 that Mr. Trepanier will be able to call you on
21 direct examination, as well as Ms. Minnick?
22 MR. JOSEPH: So will I have another chance? I
23 don't want to waste your time. I'd rather --
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: You'll have an
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
367
1 opportunity to make a closing argument, and I think
2 that would -- aside from other people examining you
3 as a witness, that is going to be your only other
4 chance to speak.
5 MR. JOSEPH: I guess that's it then.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Mr. Trepanier,
7 do you have any questions?
8 MR. TREPANIER: Yes, I do. And just to
9 clarify, my last statement with Mr. Joseph was just
10 to instruct him that this was his opportunity to
11 testify.
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I understand. I
13 don't want comments like that to be made anymore to
14 any of the Complainants, though, because you cannot
15 represent them because you're not an attorney.
16 MR. TREPANIER: Right.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: You can represent
18 yourself.
19 MR. TREPANIER: But we're not restricted from
20 speaking to one another here on Complainants?
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes, but you are
22 restricted from offering legal advice.
23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I would object to him
24 speaking to a witness when he's on the stand as
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
368
1 well.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: And that is true, and
3 when Mr. Joseph is on the stand, you cannot speak
4 unless -- in your role as a Complainant upon direct
5 examination.
6 MR. TREPANIER: Thank you for clarifying that.
7 MR. JOSEPH: I am aware he's not an attorney
8 and not trying to --
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Although whether
10 you're aware of it or not doesn't change the fact
11 that he's not an attorney and he's offering legal
12 advice.
13 So, Mr. Trepanier...
14 MR. TREPANIER: Thank you for the
15 clarification.
16 DIRECT EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. TREPANIER:
18 Q Mr. Joseph --
19 MR. JOSEPH: May I take one minute? I think
20 that tape ran out. I want to put another tape in.
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: You have --
22 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'm going to object. This is
23 now becoming disruptive. We've been trying to get
24 testimony for ten minutes, and we've had nothing --
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
369
1 hardly anything at all, and now we're changing the
2 tape again.
3 MR. JOSEPH: This is the first time I've
4 changed the tape.
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Joseph, just
6 change the tape. You're skating on thin ground here
7 with the videotape.
8 All right, Mr. Joseph?
9 MR. JOSEPH: Okay.
10 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: All right.
11 Mr. Trepanier, your witness.
12 MR. TREPANIER: Thank you.
13 BY MR. TREPANIER:
14 Q Mr. Joseph, on the date that you created
15 the videotape that we just viewed on September 9th,
16 '96, did you have occasion to leave the video --
17 leave the video machine and --
18 A Oh, yes, I did. That's the wonders of
19 time lapse.
20 MR. JEDDELOH: Mr. Knittle, why are we going
21 through this again? I think we've been through it.
22 You've admitted portions of the tape that you're
23 going to admit, and why are we doing more voir dire
24 on the tape?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
370
1 MR. TREPANIER: It's one question. Now he's
2 objecting. I think that's unreasonable.
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I think he's -- I'm
4 going to overrule. He can ask some questions about
5 the exhibit that's been admitted, and they can
6 testify based on that exhibit to a limited degree.
7 MR. TREPANIER: Thank you.
8 BY MR. TREPANIER:
9 Q And when you did leave the location of the
10 video? And do you have the exhibit that you created
11 yesterday?
12 A I should have it here. I'll look for that
13 while --
14 Q Okay. And the place where the video
15 camera was set up, that's shown how on the exhibit?
16 A Yes, yes.
17 Q How is that --
18 A An X.
19 Q With an X.
20 A I'll make it a brighter X. This is where
21 the camera was.
22 Q And then when you left that spot marked as
23 an X --
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Let's let the record
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
371
1 reflect that Mr. Joseph is marking on a piece of
2 paper that is a map that he drew yesterday of the
3 area and is purported to signify where he took the
4 pictures from that we just saw in Complainants'
5 Exhibit Number 2.
6 MR. TREPANIER: Thank you.
7 BY MR. TREPANIER:
8 Q Where did you go when you -- how many
9 times did you leave that, the video machine, do you
10 recall?
11 A Well, at least two because I -- after
12 looking at the tape, I could see that it stopped and
13 started. Like I said, the time lapse stopped. I
14 changed shots. So two or three times I left it, and
15 I remember leaving, and it refreshed my memory.
16 Q Did you have -- did you use one or some of
17 those opportunities to take views of the demolition
18 from angles that you weren't taping?
19 A Yeah. I walked around and took some shots
20 with my other camera.
21 Q Why don't you tell me where you walked
22 that you had a view of the demolition?
23 A Well, I walked -- I -- there's only really
24 one way out at this point. There's a gate that is
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
372
1 here, and I walked out that gate.
2 Q And you've written the word gate on that
3 exhibit?
4 A Yeah. I wrote gate. On 13th Street,
5 there's a gate to the yard from the creative reuse
6 center which is directly -- about 100 feet east of
7 the demolition site.
8 Q Okay. Now, we see how you exited that
9 yard, but then where did you walk that you had a
10 view of the demolition?
11 A Well, I was -- I had walked to Halsted,
12 and then I walk around to the Maxwell Street, and I
13 was basically in this area and doing some work that
14 day and some other things in the neighborhood.
15 Q Now, when you say you walked to Halsted
16 Street, how did you get to Halsted Street?
17 A Via 13th Street.
18 Q So you walked -- you walked 13th Street
19 the length of the building that was being
20 demolished; is that right?
21 A That's true.
22 Q Did you see a hose there?
23 A No. There was no hose. I distinctly
24 remember it.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
373
1 Q But what about on Halsted Street? Was
2 there a hose on Halsted? Wait. Let me ask it.
3 When you walked from 13th Street up to
4 Halsted, did you -- what did you do at that point?
5 A Well, I just walked through, and I was on
6 Halsted Street to Maxwell Street and around a couple
7 times that day.
8 Q So you went 13th to Halsted, and then
9 you're saying you walked south from there?
10 A No. I believe I went this way. I believe
11 I went this way.
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Joseph, you're
13 going to have to tell us which way you went.
14 BY MR. JOSEPH:
15 A South. You're correct, south.
16 BY MR. TREPANIER:
17 Q And when you were at -- was 13th Street
18 open, or did you climb a barricade to get through
19 there?
20 A No. It was wide open.
21 Q Was there any individuals on the street,
22 do you recall?
23 A I don't recall any individuals there.
24 There's always a lot of traffic on Halsted Street
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
374
1 just -- it's flowing.
2 Q Okay. Did you -- do you recall, did you
3 observe the front of the building that was being
4 demolished when you reached Halsted Street?
5 A Well, there was -- you couldn't see it
6 because they did have the canopy and stuff that was
7 out on the front of it. On the side there was a --
8 Q Was the sidewalk passable in front of
9 Halsted Street in front of the --
10 A No, because I remember you had to walk out
11 around it. It was kind of -- the videotape would
12 reflect that because there were some shots of that.
13 MR. JEDDELOH: I object and ask that that
14 reference to a portion of the videotape that has not
15 been admitted into evidence be stricken from the
16 record.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm sustaining your
18 objection and granting your motion to strike.
19 Let's move on, Mr. Trepanier.
20 MR. TREPANIER: All right.
21 BY MR. TREPANIER:
22 Q When you're looking at the -- when you
23 observed the boards in the front -- the front of
24 1261 Halsted, did you describe a structure? Did you
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
375
1 say there was something there? What was that?
2 A They did have some kind of -- I guess they
3 might call it a canopy or something that they would
4 use. They did have that there.
5 Q And you noticed --
6 A Better than --
7 Q -- the front of 1261 Halsted I'm
8 understanding you say.
9 You observed the front of that building?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And there was a canopy there?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Was there a hose?
14 A There was no hose that day at all. In
15 fact --
16 Q Okay. Thank you. That's -- I've asked my
17 question. I'll ask another question.
18 In the video we just saw, at times the
19 trees seemed to be changing color. Do you recall
20 that?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And can you explain that?
23 A Yes. That's because when you're take --
24 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, I'm going to object to him
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
376
1 characterizing the evidence. The evidence is as it
2 is. He can testify as to what he saw, but I don't
3 think it's appropriate for him to characterize what
4 the video is.
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to overrule
6 that and let him testify about this. Mr. Joseph,
7 you can testify about the exhibit that's been
8 entered.
9 BY MR. JOSEPH:
10 A Okay. The reason it looks kind of jumpy
11 and the brightness changes is because one minute the
12 sun is under a cloud, and the next minute they're
13 not.
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Although,
15 Mr. Trepanier, I don't see how this is relevant to
16 the issue here, so you might want to try to keep
17 things relevant so we can keep things moving along
18 here.
19 MR. TREPANIER: I didn't get the answer I
20 anticipated.
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well...
22 BY MR. TREPANIER:
23 Q Now, did you have an opportunity to be
24 inside of the building, 1261 Halsted?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
377
1 A Yes, I did, on a couple occasions.
2 Q What did you observe in there?
3 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. Lack of
4 foundation. I would like some more information as
5 to when he was there, who else was present.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained. Go ahead,
7 Mr. Trepanier.
8 BY MR. TREPANIER:
9 Q And when was your first -- did you say you
10 had more than one opportunity?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And do you recall when, if you can recall,
13 was that first time that you were in that building,
14 1261?
15 A Oh. The first time? I couldn't say
16 exactly. I would say toward the beginning of the
17 demolition, maybe earlier.
18 Q Okay.
19 A I mean, I've been in the building when
20 people were living there years ago, too, so...
21 Q Maybe I need to ask a more specific
22 question.
23 Were you inside of 1261 during the
24 demolition project?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
378
1 A Yes.
2 Q And more than once or one time?
3 A More than once.
4 Q And do you recall when was that -- that
5 first occurrence that you were in the building
6 during the demolition?
7 A Probably very early stages of the
8 demolition.
9 Q And --
10 A Again, I couldn't give you a date. I
11 probably was videotaping, and there would be
12 possibly a date on the tape. That's kind of how I
13 take notes.
14 Q So it may have been September 9th?
15 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to object. That
16 sounds like he's asking him to speculate.
17 BY MR. JOSEPH:
18 A I --
19 MR. JEDDELOH: Let me make my objection.
20 It's asking him to speculate when he said
21 he didn't remember when he was in there.
22 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: That's sustained,
23 Mr. Trepanier. Try not to offer testimony for the
24 witness.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
379
1 BY MR. JOSEPH:
2 A Again, I would like to look at the dates,
3 but I could have likely been in there on September --
4 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, I'm going to object. The
5 objection was sustained, and now he's going ahead
6 and answering it.
7 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. Ask a different
8 question or rephrase that one, Mr. Trepanier.
9 MR. TREPANIER: Okay.
10 BY MR. TREPANIER:
11 Q Now, the second time that you were in 1261
12 while the demolition was occurring, when was that?
13 A Again, I could only talk about something
14 that happened, and it's going to be hard for me to
15 say the exact second time I was there. It would be,
16 you know -- I mean, I was in the building at least
17 twice --
18 Q Okay.
19 A -- to be more specific.
20 Q And now, of these two instances that you
21 were in 1261 while the demolition project was
22 occurring, on your first instance, what did you see
23 at that time?
24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I renew my objection. Lack
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
380
1 of foundation. I still don't know when that was.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Overruled.
3 Mr. Joseph, go ahead and answer, if you can.
4 BY MR. JOSEPH:
5 A The first time I was in there? Well, I
6 mean, I seen -- during the demolition the first time
7 I seen, you know, things being torn apart and, you
8 know, paint falling off the walls and things that
9 were parts of the building that were destroyed and a
10 lot of, you know, things turned to crumbling, you
11 know, things being broken down to fine -- very fine
12 particles.
13 BY MR. TREPANIER:
14 Q How many floors is that building?
15 A It was originally -- it was, I believe,
16 four stories.
17 Q And on that first --
18 A And a basement.
19 Q And on that first visit, did you visit all
20 four floors?
21 A Yeah. I think I actually was on the roof
22 as one of the -- at the beginning of the demolition.
23 Q And did you visit the basement?
24 A I was afraid to go in the basement. I saw
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
381
1 a -- the asbestos sign, and it was dark, and, you
2 know, it was scary.
3 Q What do you mean when you say --
4 A Just through caution, I didn't want to
5 dare go down there and try and, you know, breathe --
6 get a couple particles of something in my lungs or
7 something.
8 Q What do you mean when you say you saw the
9 asbestos sign?
10 A There was a sign on the door that was --
11 again, that was in tape. It was a sign that said
12 danger: asbestos, you know, nailed to the door. It
13 looked like it had been there for --
14 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'm going to object to him
15 characterizing what it looked like. If he knows how
16 long it's been there, that's one thing. If he's
17 speculating, that's another.
18 BY MR. JOSEPH:
19 A It's an aged sign. It wasn't --
20 MR. JEDDELOH: Can we have a ruling?
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: That's over --
22 sustained. You can testify what the sign looked
23 like and things like that.
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
382
1 BY MR. JOSEPH:
2 A It looked like it had been there for a
3 long time, like somebody had discovered asbestos,
4 and they put a sign on like stay out of basement is
5 what it looked like.
6 BY MR. TREPANIER:
7 Q Now, you said -- did the sign have any
8 words on it besides the word --
9 A I have to look at the tape. I thought it
10 said danger: asbestos, you know. You could see in
11 the film darkly --
12 MR. JEDDELOH: Again, I'm going to object to
13 that.
14 BY MR. JOSEPH:
15 A I believe I read it --
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Joseph, give him
17 a second here.
18 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to ask for an
19 instruction that he be instructed to cease from
20 testifying about what inadmissible portions of the
21 tape say.
22 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Mr. Joseph, I
23 am going to issue that instruction. You are not to
24 testify anymore about what the tape says and what is
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
383
1 on the tape.
2 BY MR. JOSEPH:
3 A All right. Okay.
4 I could tell what it looked like. It
5 looked like I was in a building where there was
6 asbestos that had probably been neglected, and the
7 university was going to grind up this building and
8 cover this up --
9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'm going to object to a
10 total lack of foundation and move to strike that
11 testimony. That's pure speculation.
12 BY MR. JOSEPH:
13 A It's been going on in the neighborhood
14 for --
15 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Joseph --
16 BY MR. JOSEPH:
17 A -- how many years.
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Hold on. I'll
19 sustain your objection.
20 BY MR. JOSEPH:
21 A That's what it looked like. I mean --
22 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, but you're not
23 just telling us what it looked like. You're making
24 conclusions about what you saw, and that's not
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
384
1 entirely what we're here to do right now. You're
2 testifying in response to Mr. Trepanier's questions,
3 and I would ask you to please limit your answers to
4 what he's asked you.
5 BY MR. TREPANIER:
6 Q So when I ask a question, if you could
7 concentrate and bring in an answer to the question
8 that I asked, I think we'll be able to move along
9 here more swiftly.
10 Now, on your first instance on looking
11 through the building, I understand you're saying
12 that you were on each floor, the roof, and didn't
13 enter the basement; is that correct?
14 A Right. I didn't think it would be wise to
15 go in the basement.
16 Q Now, when you were on the first floor, did
17 you look around?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And when you were on the second floor, did
20 you look around?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And the third and the fourth the same?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And did you look throughout the building?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
385
1 A Yes.
2 Q And did you see a hose?
3 A No.
4 Q On your second visit to the property, was
5 the danger: asbestos sign still present, if you
6 know?
7 A As far as I know, they bulldozed that
8 asbestos sign with everything else. I never saw an
9 asbestos truck ever in the neighborhood.
10 Q No. The question that I asked, though --
11 maybe I need to ask a little more background.
12 Now, when you -- when you visited the
13 building for the second time, was the building still
14 standing?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And how did you enter the building?
17 A There was a big hole they had. Toward the
18 rear near the alley, they had put a big hole in
19 where they could drive their little bobcat in right
20 inside the building, a big hole in the wall. It was
21 wide open, 24 hours.
22 Q Now, is -- and where did you, on your
23 first visit, see the sign danger: asbestos in
24 relation to that big hole?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
386
1 A It was -- toward the front of the
2 building, there was an entrance to the basement, and
3 it was on that door.
4 Q Okay. And on your second visit to the
5 building, did you go up and look at that same door?
6 A I recall seeing it every time I was in
7 there. It was, you know...
8 Q Okay. And did you look -- did you look
9 throughout the building on your second visit?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And --
12 A I went in to videotape the -- whatever,
13 document the strength and whatever in the building.
14 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm sorry. I didn't hear his
15 response, and I don't know if the court reporter got
16 down his word.
17 MR. JEDDELOH: Could you say that more loudly?
18 Could I ask that you say that more loudly?
19 BY MR. JOSEPH:
20 A Right. I went in to videotape the --
21 document what I saw in the building, you know, the
22 integrity, the strength, the history, and that type
23 of thing to document it for me, the destruction and
24 the...
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
387
1 BY MR. TREPANIER:
2 Q Now, and -- was -- on either of your
3 visits to the property, did you observe water --
4 standing water in the building?
5 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'm going to object to the
6 lack of foundation with respect to the second
7 visits. I haven't even heard when that was in
8 relation to the overall demolition let alone a date,
9 so I have an objection to questions about what he
10 observed on the second visit
11 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. That's
12 sustained. Mr. Trepanier, will you try to get that
13 information across before you ask that last question
14 that you just asked?
15 MR. TREPANIER: Okay.
16 BY MR. TREPANIER:
17 Q Following your first visit to the subject
18 property, did you have occasion to visit a second
19 time?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And how long -- how long, if you know,
22 approximately, if necessary, did that second visit
23 follow your first?
24 A Again, that's kind of hard. If I had
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
388
1 the -- generally if I went in there, I would have
2 brought the camera, and that's how I take notes.
3 It's kind of all bundled together, but to look at
4 the video would refresh my memory, and -- I don't
5 know. So if you maybe had a general question or
6 something, I could be -- give you a better answer
7 because to say the second time --
8 Q So you do -- but you do have a video
9 record that you do believe you could refresh your
10 memory with as to when the second visit occurred?
11 A Probably.
12 MR. TREPANIER: May I ask that the witness
13 refer to his record?
14 MR. JEDDELOH: Inadmissible. It has already
15 been ruled upon. It's a --
16 MR. TREPANIER: I'm not asking --
17 MR. JEDDELOH: May I finish?
18 It's a nice try, I believe, on
19 Mr. Trepanier's part to reintroduce the question of
20 the video, but we've been down the road already.
21 MR. TREPANIER: I'm not asking --
22 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Blankenship, do
23 you have a --
24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I would object to the video
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
389
1 being shown to this assembly here if that's what it
2 takes to refresh his recollection. I think that
3 would be improper to show it to everybody.
4 MR. TREPANIER: I don't -- I don't feel that
5 would be improper even if it did get viewed, but
6 it's not necessary that everyone view it.
7 BY MR. TREPANIER:
8 Q I'll ask the witness, is it possible for
9 you to refresh your memory as to your second look on
10 a record other than the evidence tape that's in the
11 machine? Do you have -- do you have -- do you have
12 that record with you that you need to refresh your
13 memory?
14 A That's how I take notes. I mean, that's --
15 Q Do you have the record with you?
16 A Well, there's some shots inside the
17 building that are on that evidence tape that --
18 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to object if he's
19 about to launch into a discussion of what's on that
20 tape.
21 MR. TREPANIER: No. I'm not going that way.
22 He was.
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: That would be
24 sustained.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
390
1 MR. TREPANIER: I was just attempting to find
2 out if the witness has a record with him that he can
3 refresh his memory with other than --
4 BY MR. JOSEPH:
5 A No. No, I have not.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Joseph, do you
7 know that looking at the tape would refresh your
8 memory?
9 MR. JOSEPH: Well, I -- I mean, I'm walking
10 throughout the building.
11 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Do you know that
12 would refresh your memory as to what you saw or when
13 it was?
14 MR. JOSEPH: Well, sure. It's, I mean --
15 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Why?
16 MR. JOSEPH: Well, a picture is a thousand
17 words. What is a videotape tape, a thousand --
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: But there's no time
19 and date on the screen when you're walking in that
20 building. Would that then refresh your memory? I
21 know there is not because I read it. I mean, I
22 looked at it.
23 MR. JOSEPH: I did pull some of the original
24 tapes. Let me see if I have it.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
391
1 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'm going to object to this --
2 what would appear to be an effort to refresh
3 recollections taking another half hour before we
4 figure this out.
5 MR. JOSEPH: We're trying to get to the truth.
6 Can't we look at our notes? This is how I take
7 notes. I've got two hours on this, two hours.
8 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Again, I'll object --
9 MR. JOSEPH: That's -- now, wait a minute.
10 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Hold on. Hold on.
11 Wait, wait, wait. I don't want to get this to a
12 contentious level again.
13 MR. JOSEPH: Why are you afraid of
14 videotapes?
15 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'm not.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Joseph,
17 Mr. Joseph, you're going to have to be quiet now for
18 a second, okay?
19 MR. BLANKENSHIP: If I may speak...
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: If you can continue
21 your objection, and, Mr. Joseph, I'll give you an
22 opportunity to -- actually, I'll -- go ahead.
23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: They've had a month to
24 prepare for this hearing, to prepare their
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
392
1 testimony, and it seems like they're preparing as we
2 go along, and it's, again, taking an inordinate
3 amount of time costing my client a lot of money for
4 me to sit here while they do the work they should
5 have done over the last month.
6 This is ridiculous. If they've got
7 something they can look at quickly to refresh his
8 recollection, he can do that, but if it's going to
9 take anything more than 30 seconds, it's ridiculous
10 that we're spending this time helping them prepare
11 while the hearing is going on. It's a waste of all
12 our resources.
13 MS. MINNICK: May I say anything at this
14 point?
15 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, let's see if
16 Mr. Jeddeloh has anything to add.
17 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, I would just second what
18 Mr. Blankenship said. I think they've had plenty of
19 time. If they felt they needed to have this
20 specificity to proceed, they should have gotten
21 ready for it.
22 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Trepanier?
23 MR. TREPANIER: Well, I'm trying to meet the
24 objections of Mr. Blankenship by having my witness
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
393
1 use that particular record to refresh his memory. I
2 don't know that I've exhausted all other methods. I
3 mean, maybe what I need to do is try some other
4 method to see if we can't meet the objection to
5 foundation for the question regarding was there
6 water standing in the building on his second visit,
7 so...
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: And this is
9 Mr. Trepanier's witness right now, Ms. Minnick, so I
10 don't think it's appropriate for you to comment, nor
11 is it appropriate for you to comment, Mr. Joseph.
12 Mr. Trepanier, I'm going to deny the
13 request to take a look at the videotape right now to
14 refresh his recollection. I don't think that
15 appropriate foundation has been laid, and I don't
16 think it's necessary at this point. Try to get your
17 information by asking him the questions.
18 MR. TREPANIER: Thank you.
19 BY MR. TREPANIER:
20 Q Now, on your second visit into the
21 building, did anyone accompany you?
22 A Well, again, I'm confused first and
23 second, but I was accompanied on two different
24 occasions with two different friends.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
394
1 Q So on each of your visits into the
2 property -- each of your two visits into the
3 property during the demolition, you had a person
4 accompany you, but it was a different person?
5 A Correct, I recall. I recall at least
6 two. There were at least two visits during the
7 demolition.
8 Q And who were those people?
9 A One of them was -- you know, I don't know
10 the one person's name. She was staying at the co-op
11 there, a young woman who's in the videotape. I
12 honestly don't remember her name --
13 Q And the second?
14 A -- who was there during that.
15 Then there was -- let's see. There was --
16 Lenore accompanied me there one time.
17 Q When you were -- what -- you said that you
18 walked in through a hole in the side of the building
19 when you entered on the second occasion; is that
20 correct?
21 A I believe so.
22 Q And do you know who put that hole inside
23 of the building?
24 A Well, it was pretty -- I mean, most likely
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
395
1 it was the demolition company.
2 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'm going to object if he's
3 speculating, which it sounds like he is if he's
4 saying most likely.
5 BY MR. JOSEPH:
6 A Well, the demolition company -- I didn't
7 see them.
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Your objection is
9 sustained. Mr. Joseph, answer only to what you know
10 you can testify to.
11 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And I'll renew my foundation --
12 BY MR. JOSEPH:
13 A I can testify that there was a demolition
14 company named Speedway Wrecking that was there, and
15 he would probably admit he put that hole in there.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Joseph, if you'll
17 reply -- or respond to the questions that
18 Mr. Trepanier has asked you...
19 MR. BLANKENSHIP: If I may have a standing
20 objection to lack of foundation on the second
21 visit. I don't think he has met what I believe are
22 the requirements.
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Your objection
24 is noted. I'm going to allow Mr. Trepanier to
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
396
1 proceed.
2 MR. TREPANIER: Thank you.
3 BY MR. TREPANIER:
4 Q Now, was the demolition activity -- was
5 demolition activity actually occurring at the time
6 of your second visit?
7 A No.
8 Q But was the building under demolition at
9 the time of your second visit?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Do you know approximately or exactly, if
12 you do, when this demolition began?
13 A It was -- I would guess --
14 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, I'm going to ask that the
15 witness be instructed not to speculate.
16 BY MR. JOSEPH:
17 A No. I'm not going to guess. I'm going to
18 look at my tape here, and I have --
19 MR. JEDDELOH: May I finish making my statement
20 before he interrupts?
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Go ahead and object,
22 Mr. Jeddeloh.
23 MR. JEDDELOH: If he a reasonable belief, then
24 that's fine, but when he starts to say I would
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
397
1 guess, I believe that that's beyond what's
2 reasonable.
3 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'm also going to object to
4 the witness referring to materials while he's
5 testifying without laying the proper foundation to
6 look at materials. He shouldn't have anything in
7 front of him at this point.
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Both objections are
9 sustained. It's true, Mr. Joseph, you can't look at
10 that while you're testifying. You have to testify
11 from your memory and things you know.
12 MR. JOSEPH: All right. Well, again, I take
13 notes. I mean, I'm not trying to --
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Understood.
15 Mr. Trepanier, ask your question again,
16 please.
17 MR. JOSEPH: I know -- wait. I can answer the
18 question.
19 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, I want
20 Mr. Trepanier to ask the question again so we all
21 know what's going on.
22 MR. TREPANIER: Thank you.
23 BY MR. TREPANIER:
24 Q Do you know when approximately the
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
398
1 demolition at 1261 began?
2 A Well, it's probably sometime before the
3 9th because that's when I knew I was taking videos,
4 the day or two before, and then I knew it stopped at
5 some point, so again, that's what -- that's how I
6 take notes.
7 Q You gave me a lot of answer. If you could
8 just concentrate more on the question and the
9 answer.
10 A Oh.
11 Q Okay. Now, you said the 9th. What month?
12 A September.
13 Q And the year?
14 A I'm confused. If it's reflect -- is it --
15 Q Do you have a record that would refresh
16 your memory as to the year?
17 A Yes, yes. I could look at the tape. I've
18 got the date on the tape. It's the same date that
19 we've been dealing with.
20 MR. BLANKENSHIP: We'll stipulate it was 1996
21 if it'll move things along.
22 MR. JOSEPH: Thanks.
23 BY MR. TREPANIER:
24 Q Do you know -- when approximately did the
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
399
1 demolition end, or was it completed, when, if you do
2 you know? Do you know?
3 A Well, it went on for a few days, and then
4 there was, I guess, this activity, and then they
5 came in with the big wrecking ball, and it ended
6 real quick. They said that they were hand wrecking,
7 and the next thing you know they had a big crane out
8 there and knocked the whole thing down.
9 Q I just wanted to remind you that I asked
10 you, you know, if you knew or when it was.
11 A That's all I remember. They were hand
12 wrecking. We had --
13 Q Do you have a record that could refresh
14 your memory as to when the demolition was completed?
15 A Only by looking at my videotapes, which
16 are in chronological order.
17 MR. TREPANIER: Could the witness --
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Trepanier, I
19 don't understand where this is going. I don't know
20 what it's trying to do.
21 MR. TREPANIER: What I'm trying to do is get
22 down a time frame for that second visit. I want to
23 establish that it was after the first visit and
24 before the demolition ended, so I'll have it down
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
400
1 within a couple of weeks.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I think we're aware
3 that that second visit was after September 9th and
4 before the demolition ended, and in light --
5 notwithstanding Mr. Blankenship's continuing
6 objections, I'm going to let you ask questions about
7 that second visit.
8 MR. TREPANIER: Okay. Thank you.
9 BY MR. TREPANIER:
10 Q Now, on your second visit to the building,
11 was it your testimony earlier that you looked
12 throughout the building?
13 A Yes.
14 MR. JEDDELOH: Objection. Asked and answered.
15 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Overruled. I'm going
16 to let him get through this with the second visit.
17 BY MR. TREPANIER:
18 Q Was the building -- what did you see on
19 the top floor?
20 MR. JEDDELOH: Objection. He has already asked
21 what he saw, and he provided a complete answer, and
22 now we're going back through this again.
23 MR. TREPANIER: No. I think we were on the
24 first --
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
401
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. Mr. Jeddeloh, I
2 think that was about the first visit. I'm going to
3 overrule as long as, Mr. Trepanier, you keep this
4 short and get to your point.
5 MR. TREPANIER: Okay.
6 BY MR. JOSEPH:
7 A Well, again, without really looking at the
8 most accurate record, I know there was a time there
9 was a bobcat on the roof that had been used to push
10 stuff off, and they may have used that on a
11 different floor.
12 BY MR. TREPANIER:
13 Q Let me clarify the question.
14 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to also object to him
15 interrupting this witness and providing an answer to
16 his question.
17 MR. TREPANIER: I don't think he was answering
18 my question. He was talking about the roof. I
19 asked about the upper floor.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Your objection is
21 sustained. Mr. Trepanier, ask your question and
22 then let the witness answer and then ask another
23 question.
24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And I would like to move to
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
402
1 strike the part of that testimony that began may
2 have been as speculative and is not observation.
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: That's granted.
4 Proceed, Mr. Trepanier.
5 MR. TREPANIER: Thank you.
6 BY MR. TREPANIER:
7 Q Did you see any water standing in the
8 building?
9 A I never saw any water in the building,
10 never, ever saw any water in the building.
11 Q Now, on your second visit, did you go to
12 the top of the building?
13 A I think so. Each time I went in there, I
14 just went up the whole thing, and if I had the
15 camera, I was just kind of documenting the building
16 structure.
17 Q Could you see -- was there an area that
18 you could determine that demolition activity was --
19 where the current activity was occurring on your
20 second visit?
21 Is there one area of the building that
22 appeared that the demolition activity was occurring
23 in that area?
24 A Well, again, they started from the top
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
403
1 down, and wherever they were working, I would try to
2 take some shots of that and show the integrity of
3 the building.
4 MR. JEDDELOH: Again, I'm going to object.
5 We're getting into what the tape shows.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to overrule
7 that one. Go ahead, Mr. Joseph -- Mr. Trepanier.
8 BY MR. TREPANIER:
9 Q Then when you were observing this location
10 where you believe that the current demolition
11 activity was going on, did you see water standing at
12 that location specifically?
13 A I never saw any water standing anywhere in
14 the building. I never saw any hoses. I can't
15 recall ever seeing any hoses being used on this
16 building.
17 Q Thank you.
18 Now, from the building, what -- what's --
19 what's proximately close to the demolition site?
20 I'm looking for you to identify an --
21 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to object. If he's
22 got his question, he can ask his question, but then
23 he can't tell the witness what he's looking for as
24 an answer.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
404
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained.
2 MR. TREPANIER: I'll restate the question.
3 BY MR. TREPANIER:
4 Q Are there any other landmarks -- what
5 landmarks are around 1261 South Halsted?
6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. Relevance of
7 landmarks to this case.
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Trepanier, I
9 don't know what you're trying to elucidate here.
10 MR. TREPANIER: I'm going into the
11 reasonableness of the activity -- the reasonableness
12 of the demolition activity in a commercial district,
13 so I'm wanting to elicit some testimony regarding
14 the nature of the neighborhood immediately around
15 the building as I have this witness who was right
16 inside the building, so I'm going to inquire into
17 his -- what was right around there.
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'll give you a
19 limited amount of time to pursue this line of
20 questioning.
21 MR. TREPANIER: Okay.
22 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: A couple questions.
23 BY MR. TREPANIER:
24 Q Did you have an opportunity to -- okay.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
405
1 Hold on.
2 This building fronts on Halsted Street.
3 Could you describe that scene there immediate -- in
4 the immediate surroundings of 1261 Halsted -- 1261
5 Halsted?
6 A Well, Halsted is very busy. It's like a
7 commercial district. It's just alive during the
8 day. It's just really alive with people, you know,
9 people just busy, you know, marketing things and
10 selling things out of the stores and just very
11 alive, you know. All day long there's just people
12 up and down there. It starts early, people --
13 hard-working, you know, lower class type people. I
14 assume you call them lower class. I don't know how
15 to define it. And it's always been that way.
16 Q When you were filming the dust -- when you
17 were creating that video and you walked down
18 13th Street to Halsted, did you have an opportunity
19 to see -- to observe the dust that you were
20 videoing?
21 A Observe the dust that I was videoing?
22 Q Should I clarify the question?
23 A Yes.
24 Q When we saw the video, we -- did you have
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
406
1 an opportunity to see the wheelbarrow-dumping
2 activity or the results of that from other
3 locations?
4 A Well, they were doing it systematically,
5 and as I walked around, I remember you'd see it kind
6 of drifting toward 13th Street, and wherever they
7 were working, it would be -- you know, you could
8 just see it kind of -- if you were at a distance,
9 you could see that they're working up there whatever
10 they were doing. It's just threw out dust.
11 Q Now, on the east side of 1261 Halsted,
12 there's another activity. In fact, that's where you
13 had your video camera, isn't it?
14 A The east side of which?
15 Q Of 1261 Halsted.
16 A Right. The creative reuse yard?
17 Q Why don't you tell me what -- how is
18 that -- who uses that yard?
19 A Well, that's an extension of the creative
20 reuse center which purpose is to get stuff donated
21 from different corporations, surplus materials, and
22 it's used by artists and teachers to get their
23 students more involved in reusing things to try to
24 put a stop to some of the consumerism thing we
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
407
1 have. And the yard is the same thing, things that
2 can be kept out in the weather out there, there's a
3 lot of reuse of wood and windows and metal parts for
4 sculpture and all kinds of things. So there's
5 activity out in that yard. Related to that, anybody
6 that's looking for something used, trying to save a
7 few bucks, that's what it's about. It's kind of an
8 extension of what Maxwell Street was.
9 Q Individuals walk in that yard?
10 A Oh, yeah.
11 Q Now, was there a warning sign in that yard
12 regarding -- did you see a warning sign in that yard
13 regarding the ongoing demolition?
14 A No, no.
15 Q When you -- when you walked up to Halsted
16 Street, did you see any warning signs regarding the
17 ongoing demolition?
18 A No.
19 Q Anywhere did you see a warning sign?
20 A No. Again, I would have to look at the
21 tapes to see one, but I don't think there was
22 anything. There were no signs. I don't remember
23 any signs. At some point, they might have had some
24 barricades or something, but I don't recall. I'd
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
408
1 have to look at the tape.
2 Q All right. Are there any eating
3 establishments in this area near 1261 Halsted?
4 A There's -- just down the next corner is
5 the famous hot dog stand, and then there's another
6 hot dog stand a little closer, so one short block
7 there is an eating stand, and then there's one a
8 couple doors down.
9 Q Can people go in --
10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Let me just object to lack of
11 foundation before he gets into that. I don't quite
12 understand where these buildings are. If he could
13 be more specific...
14 MR. JOSEPH: Oh, okay.
15 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Try to be more
16 specific.
17 BY MR. JOSEPH:
18 A Maxwell and Halsted, one -- it's a short
19 block
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: And I know,
21 Mr. Joseph, you're still referring to the diagram,
22 but none of us can see that diagram. So if you
23 could explain it more...
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
409
1 BY MR. JOSEPH:
2 A Oh, okay. If you can think of this as
3 north, which is -- I drew this so that it would look
4 that way. Here's where the camera was. Here's the
5 building that was demolished. Here's 13th Street.
6 Here's the alley. This is where they dump stuff
7 out. Here's Halsted, the hot dog stand. You know
8 the hot dog stand, don't you? You never took a look
9 down there?
10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'm not testifying.
11 MR. JOSEPH: Okay.
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I know you're
13 pointing to a location on your map that's about a
14 block south of the building in question.
15 MR. JOSEPH: Very short block. And then even
16 less than that there's two hot dog stands in a row
17 there.
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Is that
19 sufficient, Mr. Blankenship?
20 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yes.
21 BY MR. TREPANIER:
22 Q Now, are these --
23 A Probably less than a couple hundred feet.
24 Q A couple hundred feet -- less than a
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
410
1 couple hundred feet from where?
2 A From this building.
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Mr. Trepanier,
4 what -- I still don't know what you're trying to get
5 to with this. We've got a pretty good idea of the
6 area here, so I'm going to ask you to move it along.
7 MR. TREPANIER: This question might show it.
8 BY MR. TREPANIER:
9 Q Now, are those sit-down restaurants?
10 A No.
11 Q How is the food served at those
12 restaurants?
13 A It's like a fast-food, out of the counter,
14 and people sit in their cars and hang out on the
15 street.
16 Q Do people eat their food there on Halsted
17 Street?
18 A Yeah.
19 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection to the relevance of
20 this line of questioning.
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. I'm going to
22 sustain that, Mr. Trepanier. I don't see how this
23 is relevant to this case. Maybe you can explain
24 that to me.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
411
1 MR. TREPANIER: Well, it's -- this goes -- this
2 is on the same issue as regards the reasonableness
3 of a conduct given its location. It goes to that
4 criteria regarding priority of location. So if
5 there's people standing out there with open food and
6 these -- that's different than demolishing a
7 building out in the middle of a field.
8 MR. BLANKENSHIP: We're talking about a
9 restaurant a block away, and there's been no
10 evidence that there was any dust blowing anywhere
11 near those restaurants. We're getting really far
12 afield here when we're talking about restaurants.
13 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right. I agree. And
14 we've got on the record that there is a restaurant
15 there and people do eat outside there, Mr. Trepanier,
16 but I don't want to proceed any further along that
17 line.
18 Let's take a recess.
19 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.)
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: We're back on the
21 record.
22 I note for the record that Amy Felton is
23 now leaving the proceedings.
24 MR. TREPANIER: My witness -- I just heard my
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
412
1 witness say that he's feeling stressed out and would
2 like to take a break. Given that circumstance, if
3 we might break for lunch...
4 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Why are you feeling
5 stressed out, Mr. Joseph?
6 MR. JOSEPH: Well, it's been a long day, you
7 know, a long night.
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I understand. I'm
9 going to over -- I'm not going to grant that. I'm
10 going to want you to continue to the best of your
11 ability, Mr. Joseph.
12 MR. JOSEPH: Okay.
13 BY MR. TREPANIER:
14 Q Now, you've testified that you --
15 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Excuse me. Can I
16 help you, sir?
17 MR. BLANKENSHIP: That's Wes Wager. He's one
18 of the Petitioners.
19 MR. JEDDELOH: He's one of the Complainants.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Oh, okay. We should
21 note for the record that Complainant Wes Wager is
22 now in the proceedings and is making his first
23 appearance at this hearing to this point in time.
24 MR. TREPANIER: Thank you.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
413
1 BY MR. TREPANIER:
2 Q Mr. Joseph, you testified that you
3 observed the demolition on September 9th and that
4 you were inside of the building on two occasions
5 during the demolition. Now, were there any other
6 days that you had an opportunity to view the
7 demolition activity?
8 A Oh, yes, periodically, you know. I mean,
9 I wasn't there every day, but when I was in the
10 neighborhood, I'd keep -- you know, take a look at
11 it.
12 Q And what would you do when you -- when you
13 say take a look at it, what do you mean take a look
14 at it?
15 A Well, I'd either just take a look at it
16 with my eyes, or I would take my camera and
17 videotape something. If they weren't there, maybe I
18 would go inside.
19 Q Now, when you were taking a look at it
20 with your eyes, did you see a hose?
21 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. Lack of
22 foundation. We need specifics here as to when this
23 was happening.
24 MR. JOSEPH: Well, I could --
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
414
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained. You're
2 going to have to rephrase that or lay some
3 foundation, Mr. Trepanier.
4 BY MR. TREPANIER:
5 Q Can you make an approximation of how many
6 times you visited the demolition site while there
7 was -- while this job was -- during the -- how many
8 times you visited the demolition site at 1261
9 Halsted?
10 A Well, I mean, a bunch of times during that
11 one day for this and just during that week maybe ten
12 times, you know.
13 Q And when you say that week --
14 A A couple times a day. You know, I was
15 maybe working in the yard here or in the
16 neighborhood.
17 Q When you're referring to that week, you
18 mean the week of September 9th?
19 A Right. Again, I'd have to reflect on my --
20 you know, on my record, which is my videotape.
21 Q Well, we found that that's not going to
22 work here today.
23 But during that week of September 9th, on
24 how many days, if you know, approximately if you
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
415
1 need to, did you observe the demolition site?
2 A If I need to what?
3 Q If you need to approximate that.
4 A Oh. Approximately? Oh, approximately ten
5 times. I'm sorry.
6 Q Now, my question was --
7 A That actually --
8 Q Excuse me. I'm asking a question.
9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Let him finish his answer,
10 please.
11 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. Finish your
12 answer if you're still answering the question.
13 BY MR. JOSEPH:
14 A Well, that's a little vague because, I
15 mean, I might have looked at it ten times in the one
16 day I was here, so how many times did I look at it,
17 I don't want to mislead. Maybe ten different
18 occasions I was there, and maybe -- I'm going to
19 count this as two or three times -- the time lapse,
20 let's count that as two or three, and then -- you
21 know, at least ten times I looked at the building.
22 BY MR. TREPANIER:
23 Q Okay. Now, my question was how many
24 days. On how many days in the week of September 19th --
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
416
1 September 9th did you visit the demolition site?
2 Approximate that if you need.
3 A Probably almost every day. Again, I'd
4 have to look at my notes and see where I was and
5 what other events I was doing and what I shot there
6 which would bring my memory to me of what happened
7 that week.
8 Q And at this time -- is it true that at
9 this time your memory is that of the week of
10 September 9th, the week that you shot that evidence
11 video, that you observed that demolition site every
12 day or nearly every day?
13 A Nearly every day, sure, sure.
14 Q And at that time, on those visits, was the
15 demolition site active?
16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Object to lack of foundation.
17 And I think he's -- his testimony is that he doesn't
18 really remember what he observed, so I think this is
19 speculative and --
20 MR. JOSEPH: No. I object. That's not true.
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: You can't object.
22 You're the witness, Mr. Joseph. But I'm going to
23 overrule his objection and allow the question to
24 stand.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
417
1 BY MR. TREPANIER:
2 Q Now, you've testified that on the week --
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: He can answer that
4 question.
5 MR. TREPANIER: Okay.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Are you restating the
7 question, Mr. Trepanier?
8 MR. TREPANIER: I was going to, but if he can
9 still answer --
10 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Do you remember the
11 question, Mr. Joseph?
12 MR. JOSEPH: No.
13 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Why don't you restate
14 it, Mr. Trepanier?
15 BY MR. TREPANIER:
16 Q Now, you've stated that on the week of
17 September 9th you visited the demolition site
18 every -- or nearly every day of that week. Now, can
19 you recall if there -- during your visits -- during
20 any of those visits there was -- other than
21 September 9th if there was demolition activity
22 occurring during your visit?
23 A Yes. During that week there was. I mean,
24 I was -- I was staying in the neighborhood that
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
418
1 week, so I know that there was. But there were
2 other things I was doing away from the neighborhood,
3 so when I was there, there was demolition going on
4 there. There was hand -- like I said, hand
5 wrecking.
6 Q Okay. Now, on your visits to the
7 demolition site during the week of September 9th,
8 did you see a -- did you see a hose?
9 A I never saw -- I don't ever recall seeing
10 a hose being used on that building being demolished
11 when I was there from any side. I know where the
12 fire hydrants are. I know very well because I've
13 worked with the creative reading center. There's a
14 fire hydrant here.
15 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. Nonresponsive at
16 this point.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right. And I'm going
18 to overrule that, but, Mr. Joseph, you can't just
19 point to that document. You have to say --
20 BY MR. JOSEPH:
21 A All right. I could say that -- I could --
22 if it would help, I could plot the fire hydrants
23 where the hoses would have been.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: That won't be
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
419
1 necessary.
2 MR. JOSEPH: All right.
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Unless Mr. Trepanier
4 asks you to.
5 BY MR. TREPANIER:
6 Q Now, when you say there wasn't a hose and
7 you're testify -- and you're interested in
8 testifying where the hydrants are, did you have an
9 interest at the time in looking for a hose or a
10 hydrant? That's during the week of September 9th,
11 1996.
12 A Well, it would have been nice to see them
13 squirting it down so that the dust wouldn't be going
14 all over the neighborhood and the garden, you know.
15 I mean, it's not just what you see. It goes up in
16 the air, and you start breathing this stuff, and you
17 can get pretty plugged up.
18 Q Is it your testimony --
19 MR. JEDDELOH: Objection. I ask that the
20 you-can-get-pretty-plugged-up part be stricken. I
21 think that's beyond his expertise to talk about the
22 effect of dust on his person or on anybody's
23 person.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'll overrule it to
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
420
1 the extent --
2 MR. JOSEPH: I think I know what --
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Hold on, Mr. Joseph.
4 I'm going to overrule it to the extent
5 that Mr. Joseph could have experienced some plugging
6 up on his own.
7 Proceed, Mr. Trepanier.
8 MR. JOSEPH: You know, on something that --
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Joseph, there's
10 no outstanding question right now. Wait for
11 Mr. Trepanier to ask one, please.
12 MR. JOSEPH: Okay.
13 BY MR. TREPANIER:
14 Q So is it your testimony that while you
15 were videotaping on September 9th and in your visits
16 during that week that you were looking for a hose?
17 A I'm not going to say I was looking for it,
18 but I was pretty aware that there was not a hose. I
19 had seen other demolitions where hoses were used,
20 and I don't know really how effective it is, but it
21 was pretty obvious to me that they weren't using a
22 hose.
23 Q And do you know where the hydrants are
24 located that are proximate to 1261 Halsted?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
421
1 A Yes.
2 MR. JEDDELOH: Mr. Knittle, we've been through
3 this before. This is just cumulative. He's
4 testified about three times he never saw a hose.
5 That's on the record.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right.
7 MR. JEDDELOH: Could I request in light of the
8 fact that we do have a schedule here that we move on
9 to something new?
10 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes, you can, and,
11 Mr. Trepanier, I'm going to ask you to speed things
12 along. I'm going to let him answer where the fire
13 hydrants were since we never really had any
14 testimony to that effect, but go ahead, Mr. Joseph.
15 Tell us where you think the fire hydrants were.
16 BY MR. JOSEPH:
17 A I know where the fire hydrants are. I
18 know them very well because they water this huge
19 garden over here.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Just keep it to where
21 the fire hydrants were, please.
22 BY MR. JOSEPH:
23 A Okay. One of the fire hydrants is on
24 13th Street just outside the door of the creative
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
422
1 reuse center, which would be just a little bit -- a
2 little bit east of the building on the north side of
3 13th Street. I'm marking it with what looks like a
4 cross here. I guess -- I'll put FH.
5 And the other one, I believe, is right
6 over here across 13th on Halsted on the north -- or
7 no, excuse me -- south -- southeast corner of
8 Halsted, and there was nothing crossing that
9 street. There was nothing going over the air. I
10 don't ever recall them using a fire hydrant
11 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Let the record
12 reflect that he has marked, Mr. Joseph has, on the
13 Complainants' Exhibit Number 1 and has marked an FH
14 next to each of the Xs where he thinks there is a
15 fire hydrant.
16 MR. JOSEPH: Yeah. I drew like a cross. It
17 looks like it's got a --
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: It's noted.
19 Mr. Trepanier, your next question here.
20 BY MR. TREPANIER:
21 Q Given where you've marked those hydrants
22 on the map, on the Exhibit 1, is it true that when
23 you -- when you left your video machine and walked
24 up to Halsted that you passed between both of those
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
423
1 hydrants and 1261?
2 A Right. To get there, I had to -- to get
3 in the gate, I had to cross here around this big
4 building here. I had to cross right by here.
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Once again,
6 Mr. Joseph, please try to keep your answers more
7 descriptive. We can't reflect on the transcript
8 what here means.
9 BY MR. JOSEPH:
10 A All right. I had to walk around the 722
11 building and pass by the fire hydrant at the
12 resource center and into the gate here -- into the
13 gate into the yard to get to the camera, and to
14 leave I had to go out that gate and pass by
15 13th Street toward Halsted, and there were no
16 hoses. In fact, I think that they might have been
17 watering the garden at that time. They had a hose
18 hooked up that went --
19 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'll object to what he thinks
20 may have been happening. Move to strike that
21 portion of his testimony.
22 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained.
23 Mr. Trepanier, ask your next question,
24 please.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
424
1 BY MR. TREPANIER:
2 Q Did you -- when -- during your week of
3 observations around September 9th, was -- I know
4 I've asked you regarding September 9th if
5 13th Street was closed, but on your other visits to
6 the site, was 13th Street closed?
7 A I don't ever remember it being closed. I
8 don't think they ever closed it.
9 Q And --
10 A To my recollection, it was never closed.
11 Q And as far as you know, if a fire hose
12 were to go from the hydrant on Halsted, the
13 closest -- if a fire hose was to go from the closest
14 hydrant to 1261, that hose would cross the road?
15 A Unless it went up over the top, but I
16 don't see how they could -- I mean --
17 Q Did you observe a fire hose going over the
18 top?
19 A No. I observed no fire hose.
20 Q Did you observe a fire hose connected to
21 the fire hydrant?
22 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. Asked and
23 answered. He's established the fire hose point.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
425
1 MR. TREPANIER: Now, I'm going to address the
2 hearing officer to ask a question now about one of
3 the criterias, I believe, that has to do with -- it
4 has to do with the section 9.
5 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to object to him
6 using -- first of all, I think he's asking for an
7 advisory opinion or about to. And secondly, I would
8 object to him using this technique to coach the
9 witness about what kind of information he wants to
10 elicit.
11 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'll join in the objection.
12 If he has a question, he should ask it, of the
13 witness.
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained. Go ahead,
15 Mr. Trepanier. Ask your question. We'll deal with
16 it as it comes up.
17 MR. TREPANIER: All right.
18 BY MR. TREPANIER:
19 Q Have you observed this type of pollution
20 that you -- the type of activity that you documented
21 on September 9th, have you observed that in this
22 very neighborhood previously?
23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'm going to object to going
24 beyond the 1261 site. That's already been decided.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
426
1 Those other demolitions are out of the case.
2 MR. TREPANIER: No. What I'm going into --
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: What are you trying
4 to get to, Mr. Trepanier?
5 MR. TREPANIER: What I'm trying to get to is in
6 section 9, 9A I believe it is, it talks about a
7 pollution source that -- a source that itself or in
8 combination with other pollution sources, and I
9 could look at the proper wording, but it can --
10 what -- one individual activity might not rise to
11 the level of pollution, if it's right in company
12 with similar or dissimilar pollution sources, that
13 may then rise to the level of a violation.
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Trepanier, are
15 you going to try to get testimony about previous
16 demolition sites in the area?
17 MR. TREPANIER: I'm -- what I'm going to --
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Or are you trying to
19 get testimony about an alleged pollution source that
20 was going on at the same time as this demolition?
21 MR. TREPANIER: Yes. I'm going to be inquiring
22 into that --
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: What, though?
24 MR. TREPANIER: Of pollution sources. I was
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
427
1 intending to ask the question not that it was at the
2 same exact time.
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. I'm not going
4 to allow any testimony then about that. We are here
5 strictly pursuant to board order for a pollution
6 that occurred allegedly at 1261 Halsted Street. So
7 I'm going to sustain both objections and ask you to
8 move on.
9 MR. TREPANIER: Okay. Well, just so that you
10 understood that I was objecting -- my objection is
11 that I feel like since there was a series of
12 demolitions and this being one of them --
13 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right.
14 MR. TREPANIER: -- that these were a cumulative
15 effect which made the impacts of the 1261 demolition
16 much higher, much greater cause of its company.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I think your
18 objection to my ruling is noted for the record.
19 MR. TREPANIER: Thank you.
20 I have no more questions at this time.
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Ms. Cole, do
22 you have any questions of Mr. Joseph? I'm sorry.
23 Ms. Minnick.
24 MS. MINNICK: Yeah. Let's see.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
428
1 None that haven't already been asked.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Mr. Wager, do
3 you have any questions you want to ask Mr. Joseph at
4 this time?
5 DIRECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. WAGER:
7 Q Do you think that what you observed was
8 typical of the university demolitions that you've
9 seen in the area over the years?
10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection.
11 MR. JEDDELOH: Objection.
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to have to
13 sustain that. We're here strictly on the 1261
14 demolition. I don't think that's purely relevant.
15 Any other questions, Mr. Wager?
16 BY MR. WAGER:
17 Q Did you have any physical effects during
18 your observations from the pollution that you saw?
19 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to object to that
20 question. I believe it would allow the witness to
21 testify as to the medical consequences of some
22 exposure to dust if that occurred, and I believe
23 that that would be inappropriate, beyond the
24 capacity of this witness, and I think it would be
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
429
1 inconsistent with -- I think it would be
2 inconsistent with the board's ruling on summary
3 judgment where it was recognized, in theory anyway,
4 that these witnesses cannot testify about medical
5 issues.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to -- it's
7 not -- you are no longer representing -- I mean, you
8 are no longer examining this witness. You can't be
9 involved in this particular objection,
10 Mr. Trepanier.
11 I'm going to overrule your objection,
12 though, and let him answer the question to the
13 extent that you suffered any physical problems.
14 BY MR. JOSEPH:
15 A Okay. Well, I can say that there's a real
16 concern --
17 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to testify as to what --
18 I'm going to object, I'm sorry, as to what he may
19 have as concerns.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right. Mr. Joseph,
21 the question was did you suffer any physical effects
22 from the dust. Is that correct, Mr. Wager?
23 MR. WAGER: Yes.
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
430
1 BY MR. JOSEPH:
2 A Yes. I try to avoid -- when I see a
3 demolition, I know what it's like because there's
4 been numerous --
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right, but I'm asking
6 you to answer the question, did you suffer physical
7 effects.
8 BY MR. JOSEPH:
9 A Yes. Even by trying to stay upwind, you
10 get stuff and you get plugged up, and, you know, you
11 have to get it out of your system. You know, it
12 plugs up your breathing capacity, and there's a
13 concern with the cumulative effect of the rubber
14 coming off the road.
15 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to object. May I make
16 my objection, please?
17 THE WITNESS: This is a real poisoning.
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Overruled. Just let
19 him finish this for a little bit. Mr. Joseph, go
20 ahead.
21 BY MR. JOSEPH:
22 A And I think that there's a real --
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'll let you object
24 to what he testifies to.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
431
1 BY MR. JOSEPH:
2 A -- concern and disregard on this
3 university's --
4 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Now, Mr. Joseph, I am
5 going to stop you there. That's not responsive to
6 the question.
7 MR. JOSEPH: Okay. Well, I mean, how do you
8 respond? I'm trying to say is there -- I have felt
9 the effects of breathing in things coming off this
10 building, unknown substances on all these
11 buildings.
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: That's it.
13 MR. JOSEPH: I tried my best to avoid it.
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Hold on. Stop.
15 That's no longer responsive to the question.
16 Now, I'm going to allow Mr. Jeddeloh to
17 make his objection for the record to any testimony
18 about your physical effects.
19 MR. JEDDELOH: First of all, Mr. Chairman, he
20 hasn't testified just about physical effects, and he
21 hasn't really testified about anything that relates
22 to any actual physical manifestation he would have
23 from the dust. I think it's clear that he's
24 testified that he tried to avoid the dust because he
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
432
1 was worried about it.
2 All of the testimony that he provided
3 about rubber from the road and hazardous substances
4 in the property and that it could plug up breathing,
5 it's all inappropriate, and anything that would
6 relate to manifestations of this dust in his own
7 physical health would be required -- would require
8 expert testimony they don't have.
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Blankenship?
10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'm going to object to the
11 specific testimony for lack of foundation as to when
12 these alleged effects occurred. We have no idea.
13 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'll note both of
14 your objections.
15 Mr. Wager, do you have any further
16 questions for this witness?
17 BY MR. WAGER:
18 Q Did any of this airborne material from the
19 demolitions land on your skin and did you -- how
20 would you react to that?
21 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I would ask that be broken
22 into two questions, if it did, and then we can
23 establish foundation before going on.
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
433
1 BY MR. JOSEPH:
2 A Well, yes, it probably did because there's
3 always more dust when there's a demolition. Even if
4 you think you're downwind, it goes up, and it
5 filters down everywhere.
6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'll object to that, move to
7 strike it because it was --
8 BY MR. JOSEPH:
9 A Everybody's backyard that's nearby --
10 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Hold on, Mr. Joseph.
11 What was that?
12 MR. BLANKENSHIP: He said it probably did.
13 MR. JOSEPH: Well, it does. It does.
14 MR. BLANKENSHIP: That doesn't sound like
15 testimony that it did.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Joseph, the
17 question was did dust from this demolition site land
18 on your skin.
19 MR. JOSEPH: Yes.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Now, what was
21 the second part of the question, Mr. Wager?
22 BY MR. WAGER:
23 Q And what was your reaction to it?
24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And I'll object to that for
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
434
1 lack of foundation as to when this allegedly
2 happened and other details before we get to the
3 effect.
4 MR. WAGER: I believe we're talking about the
5 day when -- of the videotape.
6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Well, I'm going to object to
7 that statement. I don't know what they were talking
8 about.
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I understand. Your
10 objection is overruled.
11 Mr. Joseph, please tell us if you had any
12 such effects.
13 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to object to that
14 again just for the record because I think it would
15 require him -- and this question much more would
16 require him to provide medical testimony.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Understood, and I'm
18 overruling because I think any person can testify to
19 effects that they feel physically.
20 I'm not asking for a medical opinion here,
21 Mr. Joseph. I'm just asking for effects that you
22 personally felt from the dust.
23 BY MR. JOSEPH:
24 A Well, again, I tried to avoid it, but
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
435
1 there was dust bits everywhere.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: This is from landing
3 on your skin in response to Mr. Wager's question.
4 BY MR. JOSEPH:
5 A Well, I can't say there was any serious
6 problem from it landing on my skin. Hopefully, you
7 know, no asbestos filtered through and --
8 MR. JEDDELOH: I ask that the part relating to
9 hopefully no asbestos being filtered through be
10 stricken.
11 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to let it
12 stand. The board is going to know -- I'm going to
13 want the board to see this and to get some semi-idea
14 of what's going on here, but, Mr. Joseph, I'm going
15 to direct you to just answer the questions as
16 they're presented to you.
17 Mr. Wager, do you have anything else?
18 MR. WAGER: Will there be time -- a chance for
19 further questions later because I wasn't really
20 prepared to ask questions?
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: No. This is
22 Mr. Joseph's only testimony that he's going to be
23 giving. You will be able to testify later, if you'd
24 like, on your own behalf.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
436
1 BY MR. WAGER:
2 Q Did the -- this dust that you observed,
3 did it actually affect the quality of your
4 videotaping any, like the dust landing on the
5 camera?
6 A Well, yeah. Maybe some got on the lens,
7 you know.
8 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection as to maybes.
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to allow
10 his answer to stand. Overruled.
11 Next question, Mr. Wager.
12 MR. WAGER: The questions are just relating to
13 this particular day when he was videotaping?
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: The questions are
15 related to 1261 Halsted. I'm not going to allow too
16 many questions here, Mr. Wager, so make them good.
17 BY MR. WAGER:
18 Q Did you observe -- prior to the
19 demolition, did you observe the inside of the 1261
20 building?
21 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Asked and answered.
22 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. The objection
23 is sustained. He's already answered this question
24 while you were not here, Mr. Wager.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
437
1 MR. WAGER: I'll leave it at that.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Thank you.
3 We're going to continue this with cross
4 examination of Mr. Joseph after lunch. We can go
5 off the record.
6 (Whereupon, a discussion was held off
7 the record.)
8 (Whereupon, a lunch recess was taken.)
9 AFTERNOON SESSION
10 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: We can go back on the
11 record.
12 We are here. This is the afternoon
13 session of the March 24th, 1999, hearing, 97-50, and
14 currently Mr. Lorenz Joseph is on the stand subject
15 to cross examination by the Respondents. Which one
16 of the Respondents?
17 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'm going to go.
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Blankenship?
19 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yes.
20 CROSS EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. BLANKENSHIP:
22 Q Mr. Joseph, how old are you?
23 A Forty-six.
24 Q Are you presently employed?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
438
1 A Is that relevant?
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Joseph, you have
3 to answer the questions, if you can. I think that
4 is relevant. He's doing some background questions.
5 MR. JOSEPH: Oh, okay.
6 BY MR. JOSEPH:
7 A I work for myself.
8 BY MR. BLANKENSHIP:
9 Q What do you do for yourself?
10 A I'm an independent videographer.
11 Q How long have you been an independent
12 videographer?
13 A Most of my life.
14 Q Have you ever held a job other than as a
15 self-employed videographer?
16 A Yes, I have.
17 Q When was that? When was the last time
18 you held a job other than as a self-employed
19 videographer?
20 A Well, I do other free-lance work now, too,
21 because there's not a lot of money in what I'm
22 doing.
23 Q What type of free-lance work do you do?
24 A Wherever I can make the most money.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
439
1 Q What's the last free-lance work that you
2 did?
3 A I do part-time work helping somebody move
4 things around and make adjustments on equipment.
5 Q When was that?
6 A Periodically.
7 Q When was the last time you did that?
8 A Oh, I did some work for somebody the other
9 day.
10 Q You got paid for that work?
11 A Well, I did a barter.
12 Q What's your highest level of education?
13 A College --
14 Q When did you go to college?
15 A -- a couple years of college.
16 In the '70s.
17 Q And you did not graduate?
18 A No.
19 Q Two years, did you say?
20 A Approximately two years.
21 Q Okay. What did you study?
22 A I studied -- at that time it was
23 filmmaking mostly, and it was video and engineering.
24 Q What was the school you attended?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
440
1 A College of DuPage. I've sat in on classes
2 all over the country.
3 Q Have you sat in on any classes in the last
4 five years?
5 A Probably.
6 Q Do you recall any?
7 A I sat in on a couple classes on Columbia.
8 Q What was the nature of those classes?
9 What was the subject?
10 A Related to video business.
11 Q Okay.
12 MR. WAGER: I don't understand. What is the
13 point of these questions?
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: It's not quite your
15 time to object, but, Mr. Blankenship, do you want to
16 explain what the point of these questions is?
17 MR. WAGER: It's just a question, not
18 necessarily an --
19 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'm just trying to get some
20 background. There has to be a finding of
21 credibility as to the witnesses, and background is
22 one factor that influences that finding. I'm done
23 with the background.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. That's the
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
441
1 answer. I'm going to let occasionally some
2 objections come from all parties since they all did
3 do a direct.
4 BY MR. BLANKENSHIP:
5 Q At the time of the demolition of 1261
6 Halsted, you lived at 716 West Maxwell?
7 A No.
8 Q Where did you live?
9 A I was working in the neighborhood. I
10 really wasn't living anywhere.
11 Q Where did you sleep at night?
12 A Depending on where I was -- what project I
13 was working on. It could have been in the
14 neighborhood. It could have been out of the
15 neighborhood.
16 Q Okay. And when you filed your complaint,
17 you used the address of 716 West Maxwell to be sent
18 mail?
19 A Yes, because that's where I was spending a
20 lot of time working on a documentary at the time.
21 Q Okay. Now, on September 9th, 1996, when
22 you were making the video, you were shooting that
23 video from the yard to the east of 1261, right?
24 A I was shooting it from the east looking
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
442
1 west.
2 Q And that yard where you were shooting from
3 is about 100 feet to the east of the actual building
4 at 1261, right?
5 A Well, the yard starts directly across the
6 alley, a very narrow alley.
7 Q How far from the back of the building at
8 1261 did the yard start?
9 A I would say the -- approximately maybe 15
10 feet.
11 Q How wide is the yard from west to east?
12 A Well, excuse me. I just want to clarify.
13 The alley is 15 feet. The yard is probably 100
14 feet.
15 Q Okay. And your camera was positioned at
16 the east end of the yard, it looked like, on the
17 video?
18 A Very close to the creative reuse center
19 building.
20 Q Okay. And that yard is -- just contains
21 the materials that have been donated to the center,
22 right?
23 A Basically.
24 Q It's a storage facility?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
443
1 A Basically, yes.
2 Q Okay. And you testified that people
3 frequently were in the yard; is that right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q I only think I saw one person in the video
6 that whole day in the yard. Do you recall something
7 different than was shown on the video?
8 A I think I saw several people in the yard.
9 Q Is there a reason that wouldn't have been
10 reflected on the video?
11 A Oh, I thought I saw several. I looked at
12 it this morning, you know, the copy I had.
13 Q Well, however many were shown on that
14 video is the number of people that were in the yard
15 on that day?
16 A No, because it was intermittent. It was
17 time lapsing, so if somebody walked through the yard
18 in the 59 seconds approximately that it wasn't
19 capturing, you would have missed them.
20 Q From where the video was positioned, you
21 couldn't see what was happening on top of the
22 building, could you?
23 A Only if somebody was within the angle of
24 the view.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
444
1 Q Okay. Well, if someone was --
2 A The camera was about ten feet up, and the
3 fourth story was the four stories up.
4 Q So you're on the top of the building on
5 the Halsted side. You couldn't see what was
6 happening up there, could you?
7 A No.
8 Q And if watering was going on up there, you
9 couldn't see that from where you were viewing?
10 A I didn't -- I -- not when I -- when I
11 walked around, there was no watering going on on
12 that side.
13 Q Well, you couldn't see from where you were
14 shooting the video whether there was water or not,
15 right?
16 A No. You can't see. The building blocks
17 the Halsted side.
18 Q Right.
19 A The building is between Halsted.
20 Q So your video doesn't help answer the
21 question of whether there was watering going on on
22 the property or not, does it?
23 A Well, it shows everything on the -- it
24 shows everything on the east side of the building.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
445
1 Q But if watering was going on on the west
2 side of the building, the video wouldn't show it,
3 right?
4 A It --
5 Q That's a yes or no question.
6 A Not unless it was coming down off the
7 top. You would see it if it was spraying over the
8 top.
9 Q Okay. But if they were just spraying on
10 the west side of the building out of the view of the
11 camera, it wouldn't be seen, right?
12 A No. Not if they were spraying in the
13 front end, no.
14 Q And obviously, you couldn't see what was
15 going on inside the building either, right?
16 A No.
17 Q Now, the dumping that you observed was
18 coming off the east side of the back of the
19 building, right?
20 A Correct.
21 Q Into the east space between the building
22 and the yard?
23 A Alley.
24 Q The alley, okay.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
446
1 You didn't see any dumping off the front
2 side on Halsted, did you?
3 A No, I didn't.
4 Q Okay. And you didn't see dumping off the
5 side onto 13th Street, did you?
6 A I don't think so.
7 Q Okay. And as I saw the videotape, it
8 looked like the bulk of the debris was actually
9 falling fairly straight down, wasn't it?
10 A If the wind wasn't blowing, it would
11 basically -- you know, what doesn't lift up is going
12 to -- from what you can see, basically if the wind
13 is not blowing, it's going to go somewhat down.
14 Q When the wind was blowing, it drifted but
15 it still went down? It just may have drifted a few
16 feet to the south before it actually came down,
17 right?
18 A Well, four stories, if the wind is
19 blowing, it's going to go -- it could go a lot
20 farther than that and just keep going.
21 Q Well, it looked to me, and tell me if you
22 disagree, that the material was coming down as it's
23 blowing sideways?
24 MR. TREPANIER: I have an objection that the
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
447
1 video that he's referring to went for a whole day.
2 Now, is there a certain episode that the attorney is
3 asking a question about, or is he wanting the
4 witness to respond if he saw any dust blow away at
5 any time?
6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'll rephrase the question.
7 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Do you mind?
8 MR. WAGER: It seems to me like these are very
9 leading questions.
10 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: He can lead on cross
11 examination. That's allowed. I'll sustain your
12 objection if you'll rephrase the question.
13 BY MR. BLANKENSHIP:
14 Q When you saw debris being dumped off the
15 building on September 9th and saw it blowing to the
16 south, was that dust falling at the same time it was
17 going in the southward direction?
18 A Yes, gravity.
19 Q Okay. And the building on 13th Street,
20 how tall is that building to the south of 1261? Is
21 it a four-story building?
22 A South?
23 Q Yes. To the south of 1261 at the
24 southeast corner of Halsted and 13th Street, how
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
448
1 tall is that building?
2 A You mean across the street?
3 Q Yes.
4 A 13th Street?
5 Q Yes.
6 A Approximately the same height.
7 Q Same height?
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I want to let the
9 record reflect that whenever Mr. Blankenship asks a
10 question relating to the geography of the area,
11 Mr. Joseph is referring to that Complainants'
12 Exhibit Number 1, the map, before he answers. I
13 want to make that --
14 MR. JOSEPH: Is that okay? I mean, I don't
15 want to jeopardize anything.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: You're supposed to
17 testify from memory, but if you're going to do that
18 and there has not been an objection, I want it to be
19 noted for the record that you are continually
20 looking down at that piece of paper before you
21 answer just so the board members know.
22 MR. JOSEPH: Well, should I not look at that
23 or turn it over? I thought it would help.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Is there an objection
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
449
1 to him looking at that?
2 MR. BLANKENSHIP: That's fine.
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. I don't have a
4 problem with it. I just wanted it noted for the
5 record so they have a good idea of what's going on.
6 BY MR. BLANKENSHIP:
7 Q So the building across 13th Street from
8 1261 is the same height roughly?
9 A Approximately.
10 Q So if the dust that was coming off the
11 back --
12 A Was --
13 Q The dust that was coming off the back of
14 1261, if it was falling downward as it's blowing
15 south, the furthest it could have got is when it ran
16 into the building on the southeast corner of
17 13th Street and Halsted, right?
18 A No. It could have gone between the
19 buildings. There's -- the alley kind of continues.
20 Q Well, the building on the southeast corner
21 actually goes further east than the building at
22 1261, didn't it?
23 A A little bit, a little bit maybe, yeah.
24 Q Okay.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
450
1 A Or it could have blown around the corner
2 into 13th.
3 Q But you don't know. You didn't see the
4 dust blow around the corner, did you?
5 A Well, I did see it blowing around the
6 corner. Yeah, I did see it when I was walking
7 around.
8 Q How much dust did you see blow around the
9 corner?
10 MR. TREPANIER: Objection. Can he clarify as
11 to what time period that he's asking this question
12 in as to when he saw dust blow around?
13 MR. BLANKENSHIP: The time period is the time
14 he just testified that he saw dust blow around the
15 corner.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Overruled. You can
17 answer the question, Mr. Joseph.
18 BY MR. JOSEPH:
19 A Okay. Could you repeat the question?
20 BY MR. BLANKENSHIP:
21 Q When you saw the dust blow around the
22 corner on 13th Street, how much dust did you see
23 blow around the corner?
24 A Well, whatever they dump off. If there's
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
451
1 rocks, they're going to pretty much fall. If
2 there's wind, the stuff is going to carry.
3 Q Well, how much dust did you see? Was it a
4 handful of dust?
5 A They were dumping -- you know, when they
6 dumped, they dumped a wheelbarrow full. How much
7 does a wheelbarrow hold, a quarter yard?
8 Q Did you see a whole wheelbarrow full of
9 dust blow around the corner? That's my question.
10 A Well, whatever was not heavy enough to
11 fall, if the wind was blowing, it would blow
12 whichever way the wind is blowing.
13 Q And I'm trying to understand what that was
14 because now you told me that the heavy portion of it
15 went to the ground, the heavy portion of this
16 wheelbarrow full went to the ground and a portion
17 didn't --
18 A By weight, by volume, what do you mean?
19 Q However you can describe it.
20 A All I can say is that I saw them dump
21 wheelbarrows, and some of them blew around. If the
22 wind was blowing good, it's going to keep going
23 whichever way the wind is going.
24 Q And you can't quantify how much you saw
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
452
1 blow around the corner?
2 A Maybe a quarter wheelbarrow.
3 Q Okay. How far did it go?
4 A To be -- you know, being conservative.
5 Q After that dust rounded the corner, how
6 far did it go?
7 A Well, as it blows, it thins out, you
8 know. It's still going. It's just spreading out.
9 Q And falling, too, right, because of
10 gravity?
11 A Pollution is not the solution. I mean, is
12 it going into the sewers?
13 Q I'm trying to get an idea, sir, of how far
14 this dust that you say came off the building, how
15 far it went, and what I'm hearing so far is that --
16 A As far as I can see, you can see it until
17 it gets to the point where it thins out so bad, and
18 then it's just everywhere with people breathing it.
19 It's to Halsted Street. It's going to just keep
20 blowing.
21 Q How far from 1261 did the dust blow before
22 you couldn't see it anymore, before it thinned out
23 enough to not see it?
24 A I would say after maybe 50 or 100 feet, it
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
453
1 just kind of blends in.
2 Q You saw a cloud of dust blowing 100 feet
3 from 1261? Is that your testimony?
4 A It's hard to guess. Maybe 50 feet, yeah.
5 Q Now, you mentioned two visits inside the
6 building at 1261. You never visited inside the
7 building while work was going on, did you?
8 A No, I didn't.
9 Q Both of your visits were after the
10 Speedway crew had left the site?
11 A Yes. Well, let's say maybe there were
12 more buildings, too, but I --
13 Q Well, the ones you went inside the
14 building, inside the building?
15 A No. I wasn't in there when they were
16 working.
17 Q Okay. And we talked about the first visit
18 yesterday, but I want to make clear, the second
19 visit, you also didn't have permission from the
20 owner of the property to go inside that building,
21 right?
22 A I didn't know I was required to have
23 permission.
24 Q But you didn't have permission, right?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
454
1 A No. I didn't have any permission from
2 anybody to go in the building.
3 Q Okay. And when you were in the basement
4 and you saw the asbestos --
5 A I was not in the basement.
6 Q I'm sorry. When you were at the door to
7 the basement, is that where you saw the asbestos
8 sign?
9 A Right.
10 Q Sir, that sign, in fact, was left from
11 when they were taking the asbestos out of the
12 building, wasn't it?
13 A No. That sign had been there when the
14 building was occupied. That was in there.
15 Q How do you know that?
16 A Well, it looked like it hadn't -- it
17 looked like it had been there. It wasn't just a
18 little cardboard sign. It was like mounted --
19 Q Well --
20 A -- securely, and it was aged.
21 Q Couldn't that have been an old sign of the
22 demolition company that they brought and put up
23 there to warn people that they were in the process
24 of removing asbestos?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
455
1 A Well, the sign looked a lot older than the
2 dates on the alleged demolition -- or the alleged
3 removal of asbestos.
4 Q At the time you were in the --
5 A It's an old sign.
6 Q At the time you were in the building, you
7 don't know whether there was asbestos in the
8 basement or not, do you?
9 A I only saw the sign.
10 Q So you don't know whether there was
11 asbestos in the basement or not, right?
12 A I can only assume there was at some point.
13 Q My question is, sir, at the time you saw
14 the sign at the time you were in the building --
15 A No, I don't know, correct. That is
16 correct.
17 Q Okay. Thank you.
18 Now, in the ten or so occasions you
19 testified that you went by and observed the
20 demolition site, were you in the area just to be
21 observing the site?
22 A No. I was in the area because I was doing
23 a documentary in the area.
24 Q And why were you in this particular
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
456
1 position in the area at the demolition at 1216, as
2 part of your making a documentary of the demolition?
3 A No. I was doing other documentaries of
4 the neighborhood, and this happened to become a part
5 of the story of the neighborhood.
6 Q So you were trying to document the
7 demolition of the building?
8 A That's why I set time lapse up because I
9 knew they were --
10 Q Well, how about on the nine other times
11 that you were in the area observing the building
12 that you testified to, why were you in the area
13 then?
14 A To document the different things in the
15 neighborhood.
16 Q Were you living in the area at that time?
17 A Well, I was working in the neighborhood on
18 my documentary.
19 Q Now, you said that some dust landed on
20 your skin, but there was no serious problem caused
21 by the dust. In fact, you had no reaction at all to
22 the dust on your skin, right?
23 A Not specifically.
24 Q You just brushed the dust off and went on
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
457
1 your way?
2 A Right.
3 Q Is that a yes?
4 A Yeah. I didn't break out with anything.
5 Q And you never saw any medical doctor or
6 any health care professional with regard to any
7 exposure to the dust, did you?
8 A No, I didn't.
9 Q So whatever your reaction was, it wasn't
10 serious enough for you to go see a doctor or a nurse
11 or a professional?
12 A Well, I didn't really have the money to go
13 a physician either, so that's kind of -- be a major
14 factor in trying to take care of myself.
15 Q Well, did you try to go to a clinic or any
16 other -- obtain any other kind of assistance?
17 A No, I didn't.
18 Q Did it even occur to you to do that; that
19 you might need to go see someone?
20 A My experience with the clinics was -- have
21 been that it's really not really worthwhile.
22 Q So whatever health problem you believe you
23 sustained as a result of the dust, it disappeared
24 obviously very quickly, right, because you weren't
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
458
1 incapacitated for any period of time?
2 A Other than just irritating, breathing in
3 and getting plugged up a little bit and irritating
4 your eyes or something, it's -- I tried to avoid it.
5 Q And when your nose got plugged up, you
6 blew your nose and went on your way, right?
7 A Probably.
8 Q Okay. Now, when the demolition was done
9 and over, the site was left with the basement filled
10 in, and it was just a vacant lot, right?
11 A It had a little rubble left. They put a
12 fence up. It's still sitting there.
13 Q And on Halsted Street, there was a canopy
14 protecting the passersby on the west side of 1261?
15 A As I remember, the canopy was on part of
16 13th Street, and at the front was just more or less
17 blocked off. You had to walk out into the street,
18 but I'd have to look at the video to be sure because
19 I do remember being in front by the windows, and it
20 was -- actually, there was no canopy as I remember.
21 There may have been way out toward the street, but
22 it was -- the front was pretty much blockaded out
23 past the windows. I would have to look at the
24 video.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
459
1 Q And was that to stop people from getting
2 too close to the demolition site? Was that the
3 effect that that blockage had?
4 A I would say so, yeah.
5 Q Okay. So in your mind, was it pretty
6 clear that Speedway was trying to protect the
7 passersby as they were walking by the site on
8 Halsted?
9 MR. TREPANIER: I'm going to object to him
10 asking this witness what Speedway was intending to
11 do.
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained.
13 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I don't have any other
14 questions.
15 MR. JEDDELOH: Nor do I.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Trepanier, is
17 there any redirect?
18 MR. TREPANIER: Yeah.
19 BY MR. TREPANIER:
20 Q On --
21 MR. JEDDELOH: Can I ask how long this is going
22 to take because I've got a witness sitting out
23 there?
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. Do you have an
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
460
1 idea how long?
2 MR. TREPANIER: It's two pieces, probably three
3 or four questions.
4 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: You're aware that any
5 redirect you have has to be coming from the cross
6 examination, correct?
7 MR. TREPANIER: Right.
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay.
9 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. TREPANIER:
11 Q You've just testified regarding the yard
12 next to the resource center, and I'm going to ask
13 you a question about that.
14 You've testified about the gate on the
15 south side of that yard that you yourself used in
16 and out. Are there any other gates on that yard?
17 A Yeah. There are some gates on the other
18 end, but they're basically kept locked all the
19 time. At that time, they were pretty much all the
20 time locked out.
21 Q And is there any other entrances to the
22 yard?
23 A Yeah. There's an entrance through --
24 there's a door -- like a sliding door into the
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
461
1 resource center right next to where -- just to
2 the -- directly south of where the camera was, and
3 that was probably open, too.
4 Q And --
5 A It was opened up during the day.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Are you marking on
7 the map --
8 MR. JOSEPH: I could.
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: -- on Complainants'
10 Exhibit Number 1.
11 MR. JOSEPH: What are we going to call this,
12 roll-up door to the resource center?
13 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Let the record
14 reflect that Mr. Joseph is writing roll-up door to
15 the resource center at some point on the map which
16 is labeled Complainants' Exhibit Number 1.
17 BY MR. TREPANIER:
18 Q And you're saying that door was available
19 at the time that you made the video September 9th?
20 A As I recall, it was open.
21 Q Now, when a person is exiting that door
22 and walking into the yard and then, say, proceeding
23 out the gate, would they necessarily walk in view of
24 the camera?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
462
1 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Let me object to this. This
2 is speculation. If somebody did that, he can
3 testify to that, but he shouldn't be allowed to
4 speculate as to that.
5 MR. TREPANIER: Well, I'm trying to clarify the
6 fact --
7 MR. JOSEPH: No. I --
8 MR. TREPANIER: Excuse me. I'm trying to
9 clarify the fact that on cross, I believe he's
10 bringing out the fact that it shows --
11 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'll allow the
12 question. Overruled. You can testify as to whether
13 or not someone would have come -- some hypothetical
14 person would have come in the view of your camera.
15 BY MR. JOSEPH:
16 A Well, I'm sure there were people going in
17 and out of there, but the camera was mounted up
18 high. I put it -- it was -- this here that I drew
19 was -- remember, this was a semitrailer.
20 BY MR. TREPANIER:
21 Q Is that labeled?
22 A Yeah. Let's label that. Semitrailer.
23 And I put it inside there just -- it was
24 cloudy -- just in case it would rain, and so it
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
463
1 would be kind of out of the way so nobody would
2 steal my camera because there's people walking
3 through there and stuff, and it was -- the
4 semitrailer sits about -- the bed sits -- so when
5 you back up and unload it, it sits about this high.
6 The semitrailer is about four feet, right.
7 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Let the record
8 reflect that Mr. Joseph is indicating a height at
9 about his waist level.
10 BY MR. JOSEPH:
11 A Yeah. I think it's about four foot, a
12 semitrailer bed. So it was -- and it was on the
13 tripod -- was it on the tripod -- inside there -- on
14 the shelf inside there, so the camera was up this
15 high, so anybody walking out of there could have
16 walked through here and underneath it into the yard,
17 and they wouldn't have been seen.
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Wager, do you
19 have something to say?
20 MR. WAGER: I have a couple of questions
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: You'll have that
22 opportunity when Mr. Trepanier is done.
23 MR. JOSEPH: You really would have only seen
24 people that were in this corner of the yard in --
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
464
1 you know, you're restricted by the angle of view
2 here. So anybody could have walked in and out of
3 this gate and into there -- into the roll-up door
4 and not been seen.
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. Mr. Joseph, I
6 don't want you to point to that map.
7 MR. JOSEPH: Well, likely --
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Because we can't see,
9 and the people who are going to be reading the
10 transcript won't be able to see that as well.
11 MR. JOSEPH: Yeah. In the summertime, there's
12 people in that yard all the time.
13 BY MR. TREPANIER:
14 Q The other area I wanted to ask you a
15 question about was you were just asked some
16 questions regarding whether or not you saw a
17 spraying of a hose on the video. Did you see hand
18 wrecking activities, as you understand that, to be
19 occurring on that video?
20 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, I'm going to object. The
21 video can speak for itself. The question was not
22 has Mr. Trepanier has represented it but whether
23 there was -- it would have been possible to see all
24 activities and see all aspects of what was going on
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
465
1 on that floor. Now, I don't think that the question
2 is really -- is really relevant actually.
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Overruled.
4 Mr. Trepanier, ask your question.
5 MR. TREPANIER: Okay. I'm sorry. It slipped
6 out of my mind for a moment.
7 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Hand wrecking.
8 BY MR. TREPANIER:
9 Q Did you observe -- in the video, can you
10 see hand wrecking activity occurring? Did you see
11 that?
12 A You can only really see the dumping of
13 the -- you can't see the hand wrecking unless
14 they're right on -- I don't recall. It's -- unless
15 they're right on the edge, no. You really can't.
16 It's out of view.
17 MR. TREPANIER: I would like to refresh his
18 memory with that piece of the video that shows
19 somebody swinging a sledgehammer.
20 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. He didn't say his
21 memory was faulty. He's testified as to what he
22 saw. There's no need to refresh a recollection that
23 is there.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: It's sustained.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
466
1 MR. TREPANIER: Can we show that video and
2 recross him on that and say, you know, what is this
3 right here?
4 MR. JEDDELOH: First of all, we've gone through
5 this. It goes beyond the scope of the cross
6 examination.
7 MR. TREPANIER: No, it doesn't.
8 MR. JEDDELOH: We have another witness
9 sitting --
10 MR. TREPANIER: We talked about hand wrecking
11 activity, whether or not it was visible.
12 MR. JEDDELOH: May I finish my statement,
13 please?
14 We have a witness who was scheduled for
15 1:00 o'clock who's sitting out there. He's got
16 other commitments for the university later in the
17 day, and I would like to try to move us along to
18 that portion of the testimony that's really
19 relevant.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: That's understood.
21 Mr. Trepanier, this is getting a little
22 bit beyond the scope of redirect. I don't see -- I
23 was willing to give you some leeway to get into this
24 hand wrecking, but I don't see how it's relating to
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
467
1 the fact that wetting could have been occurring
2 beyond the point of view of the camera.
3 MR. TREPANIER: Well, it does in the fact
4 that -- you tell me -- that the hand wrecking
5 activity is occurring in view of the camera but no
6 hose is visible.
7 MR. JEDDELOH: That's his testimony about what
8 is on the tape. The tape speaks for itself.
9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: They'll see the tape.
10 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: If, in fact, that's
11 what the tape shows, that will be on the tape, and
12 the board will take note of that.
13 MR. TREPANIER: Okay. Then no further
14 questions.
15 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Ms. Minnick, did you
16 have any redirect? I know you never directed, but
17 you had the opportunity, so if you have any
18 redirect, I'll allow it.
19 MS. MINNICK: Is that to Lorenz?
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. Bear in mind we
21 don't want you to ask any questions that
22 Mr. Trepanier has already covered.
23 MS. MINNICK: Already has asked.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
468
1 MS. MINNICK: Well, I'll decline.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Thank you very much,
3 Ms. Minnick.
4 Do you have anything else Mr. Wager?
5 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. WAGER:
7 Q Is it not true that every day there are
8 persons working in that yard and mostly they would
9 not be in the line of fire of the camera?
10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Asked and answered.
11 MR. JEDDELOH: We've gone through that.
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. I'm going to
13 sustain that. I think Mr. Joseph and Mr. Trepanier
14 have covered that pretty well.
15 MR. WAGER: That's all.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Mr. Joseph, do
17 you have anything on your own behalf relating to the
18 cross examination?
19 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. JOSEPH:
21 Q Yeah. I would just like to say that
22 they're implying there's nobody in the yard. The
23 angle of view is probably less than -- really it's
24 going to sound outrageous -- but two percent of that
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
469
1 yard because of the upward angle because you're not
2 seeing anything here. You're not seeing anything --
3 the yard goes the full block and the angle looking
4 down, so that's...
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Blankenship?
6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Asked and answered. We've
7 gone through this. The point has been made.
8 MR. JOSEPH: You know, two percent, five
9 percent.
10 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: No. I'm going to
11 sustain his objection. You and Mr. Trepanier have
12 covered this adequately.
13 MR. JOSEPH: Okay. All right. I just wanted
14 to make that clear.
15 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Understood.
16 Well, then, Mr. Joseph, you can step
17 down.
18 MR. JOSEPH: Thank you.
19 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Thank you for your
20 testimony.
21 MR. JOSEPH: Sure.
22 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Let's call -- I'm
23 sorry. I forgot his name.
24 MR. JEDDELOH: Donovan.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
470
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Donovan.
2 And, Mr. Joseph -- never mind. I'll wait
3 until the request is made that I see forthcoming.
4 MR. JOSEPH: I think it's his decision. I
5 would like --
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: It is his decision
7 and he has -- we will ask him whether he wants the
8 camera to be rolling.
9 MR. JOSEPH: Thank you.
10 (Whereupon, a discussion was held off
11 the record.)
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Let's go back on the
13 record. We're on the record.
14 MR. JEDDELOH: We would like to raise the
15 subject matter of the video camera. I would like to
16 ask Mr. Donovan if he's willing to allow himself to
17 be videotaped for his testimony.
18 MR. DONOVAN: No.
19 MR. JOSEPH: Could I ask why?
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sure. We can ask
21 Mr. Donovan why. Mr. Donovan?
22 MR. JEDDELOH: Again, this is an issue relating
23 to the -- I can speak for Mr. Donovan. He's my
24 client.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
471
1 This is an issue relating to his own
2 personal privacy and the fact that the university
3 doesn't, to the extent possible, want to participate
4 in any further documentary rendition of this hearing
5 except for the official court reporter record.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. I'm going to
7 ask then, Mr. Joseph, for you to turn off your
8 videotape.
9 MR. JOSEPH: I will do that, but I don't know
10 what it has to do with privacy. It has to do with
11 whether or not he'll testify.
12 MR. BLANKENSHIP: He doesn't need to give a
13 reason for his reason.
14 MR. JOSEPH: There is no privacy in a public
15 hearing.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right. Nonetheless,
17 Mr. Joseph, we're going to ask you to turn off the
18 videotape.
19 MR. JOSEPH: Sure.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Is the videotape off,
21 Mr. Joseph?
22 MR. JOSEPH: Yes.
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Jeddeloh, would
24 you like to check the camera, or will you take it on
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
472
1 face value?
2 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, I'm going to take him on
3 the face value, but if it ever turns out that the
4 videotape wasn't off, I would be seeking appropriate
5 sanctions.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Very good, sir.
7 MR. WAGER: I thought it was a public meeting
8 here.
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Wager, we have
10 covered this while you were not here during the
11 first day and a half of testimony, so if you want an
12 explanation of this, I suggest you talk to one of
13 your co-Complainants.
14 Mr. Jeddeloh, it's your witness. I'm
15 sorry. You called the witness, Mr. Trepanier. I'm
16 sorry. I'm all confused. My mistake.
17 Mr. Trepanier, Mr. Donovan is your witness.
18 MR. TREPANIER: Thank you.
19 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Could you swear in
20 the witness, please?
21 (The witness was duly sworn.)
22 MR. JOSEPH: Can we all ask questions?
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Do we have an
24 objection to all of them asking questions at the
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
473
1 same time?
2 MR. JEDDELOH: We most certainly have an
3 objection. Team questioning is inappropriate and
4 unfair. It allows one person the opportunity to
5 think of a question while the other one is working
6 on the first question, and I think it just -- it's
7 just inherently prejudicial.
8 MR. JOSEPH: How is it prejudicial?
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Do you have a
10 response to that, anybody over there on
11 Complainants' side?
12 MR. TREPANIER: Well, I would just urge that
13 you do consider it.
14 MR. WAGER: I think that to be able to get to
15 the truth of the matter that that would involve as
16 much questioning as possible.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to prohibit,
18 as we've done in the past, the panel examination and
19 allow each Complainant to have an opportunity to ask
20 any questions he or she wants. I think, Mr. Wager,
21 we do want to have, you know, fairness, but we also
22 want to make sure things move in an orderly
23 fashion.
24 You can proceed, Mr. Trepanier. Do you
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
474
1 want to go first?
2 MARK DONOVAN,
3 called as an adverse witness herein, having been
4 first duly sworn, was examined upon oral
5 interrogatories, and testified as follows:
6 DIRECT EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. TREPANIER:
8 Q Thank you, Mr. Donovan.
9 What's your position with the university?
10 A My current position, I'm the associate
11 vice-chancellor for facilities management.
12 Q And how long have you had that position?
13 A I've been in my current position
14 approximately a year, maybe a little more.
15 Q And were you employed by the university in
16 September of 1996?
17 A Yes, I was.
18 Q And what was your position at that time?
19 A I believe at that time I was the director
20 of operation and maintenance.
21 Q And did you supervise any employees in
22 that position?
23 A Yes, I did.
24 Q And are any of those employees present
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
475
1 here in the hearing room?
2 A Yes, they are.
3 Q And could you identify that person?
4 A Mr. James Henderson.
5 Q And are you aware that Mr. Henderson also
6 supervised an employee?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And who was that?
9 A I don't -- I mean, he supervised hundreds
10 of employees. I can't answer that. I don't...
11 Q And what -- scratch that question.
12 In your supervision of Mr. Henderson,
13 would you -- what work of Mr. Henderson's did you
14 review particularly as regards demolition activity?
15 A I'm not sure really I understand the
16 question. I'm sorry.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Could you try to
18 rephrase that, Mr. Trepanier, so he can understand
19 the question?
20 MR. TREPANIER: Okay.
21 BY MR. TREPANIER:
22 Q Did you review the work of Mr. Henderson?
23 A Yes. I reviewed his work performance.
24 Q And when you talk about perform -- when
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
476
1 you say you reviewed his work performance, what does
2 that -- what are you referring to when you review
3 his performance?
4 A Well, as a supervisor, I'm responsible for
5 the job that Mr. Henderson does in all facets of his
6 employment at the university.
7 Q Do you give consideration to contracts
8 that Mr. Henderson signs?
9 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to object as to
10 foundation. It's not established that Mr. Henderson
11 signs contracts on behalf of the university.
12 Secondly, I think the question is vague and
13 impossible to figure out what he's really asking.
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to
15 overrule, and, Mr. Donovan, you can answer the
16 question.
17 BY THE WITNESS:
18 A Can you repeat the question for me,
19 please?
20 MR. TREPANIER: Could we have that read back?
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Could you read that
22 back, please?
23 (Whereupon, the record was read by
24 the court reporter.)
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
477
1 MR. JEDDELOH: Same objection.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Can you answer that,
3 or should I have Mr. Trepanier rephrase that?
4 THE WITNESS: If he could rephrase that.
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Can you rephrase
6 that, Mr. Trepanier?
7 BY MR. TREPANIER:
8 Q Maybe I didn't state it clearly. Do you
9 review the contracts that James Henderson approves,
10 signs, or authorizes?
11 A On occasion. Not as a normal course of
12 business, no.
13 Q And what occasions do you take to review
14 his -- the contracts that he signs?
15 A It depends on what the situation is. I
16 mean, we do hundreds of transactions on a daily
17 basis. There may be some that I'm monitoring for
18 any type of reasons or I'm involved in because it's
19 a high profile issue. Others I may not see at all.
20 Q Are the demolitions on Maxwell Street such
21 a high profile issue?
22 A There was an interest on my level just
23 because of the project that the university was
24 doing.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
478
1 Q And how did you act on your interest?
2 A I on occasion would take a ride with
3 Mr. Henderson just to see how the demolition was
4 going or when we were putting up the fences during
5 the process of the change over from when the city
6 was vacating the property to us for the south campus
7 project.
8 Q And how often did that occur during the
9 demolition -- strike that.
10 Did you take such a ride with
11 Mr. Henderson during the demolition of 1261 South
12 Halsted?
13 A I believe I did.
14 Q On how many occasions?
15 A Once, maybe twice.
16 Q Did you have -- did you supervise that
17 demolition at 1261 Halsted?
18 A No.
19 Q Did you review the answers to
20 interrogatories that Mr. Henderson swore for this
21 case?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And were you aware that that interrogatory
24 stated that you and he supervised the demolition?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
479
1 A I would have to review the document. I
2 don't know what it says offhand.
3 MR. TREPANIER: I'm directing the witness to
4 the university's response to interrogatories of 17th
5 of April, '98. They are for the response to
6 question 18.
7 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, Mr. Knittle, I'm going to
8 raise an objection at this point.
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: What's that,
10 Mr. Jeddeloh?
11 MR. JEDDELOH: You know, I don't mind giving
12 this witness -- or this question a reasonable amount
13 of latitude, but I fail to see how this relates to
14 the 9A or 21B violations that we have going on
15 here. This is a whole long line of questions about
16 whether or not Mr. Donovan was involved in the
17 supervision and to what extent, and that doesn't get
18 to the questions raised by this complaint.
19 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Blankenship?
20 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'll object to him using
21 interrogatory answers not signed by this witness in
22 an attempt to impeach the witness. That's not
23 proper impeachment.
24 MR. TREPANIER: Well, the witness said he did
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
480
1 review them.
2 MR. BLANKENSHIP: If he didn't sign them under
3 oath, it's not impeaching.
4 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: That is true. You
5 can answer the question if you can. I'm going to
6 overrule the objection, but I will let it stand for
7 the board to decide on the fact that he did not
8 actually answer these interrogatories and this isn't
9 your sworn interrogatory.
10 BY THE WITNESS:
11 A Well, Mr. Trepanier asked me if I
12 supervised. In my area of work, supervising means
13 stay on the job site nearly continually observing
14 what was going on. My role was to come by, and I
15 observed it to see that the demolition was happening
16 so I could report back to whomever I had to report
17 back to, so I guess we're splitting hairs for, you
18 know, what supervision means to me as opposed to
19 what it may mean to someone else. I mean, I was
20 more in the line of observing what was happening
21 rather than supervising under my definition.
22 BY MR. TREPANIER:
23 Q Now, my question to you, when you reviewed
24 these interrogatories and it said that you
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
481
1 supervised this demolition, did that raise a concern
2 for you?
3 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, I'm going to object to
4 that. This is well beyond the scope of anything
5 that's relevant in this litigation, and whether
6 Mr. Donovan had some concern about some statements
7 that are in interrogatories is just not relevant.
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Trepanier, why
9 are you trying to show this?
10 MR. TREPANIER: I'm trying to show what
11 handicap I struggle under given the false
12 information that I was given by the university.
13 They didn't identify the person that actually
14 accompanied Mr. Henderson, but they identified
15 another person who didn't accompany him. So I may
16 be struggling a little bit, but I think that besides
17 highlighting that, it's reflecting -- it is
18 reflecting on the credibility of the witness that he
19 allowed this document to be filed without his
20 objection.
21 MR. JEDDELOH: Mr. Trepanier is struggling a
22 little but stretching a lot. It's just not
23 relevant, and I would ask that we move on to
24 something else.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
482
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. I'm going to
2 allow you to answer that last question. Then,
3 Mr. Trepanier, we are going to move on to something
4 else. The question pertained to whether you were
5 concerned whether or not -- Mr. Trepanier, do you
6 want to rephrase that question you had about whether
7 he was concerned about the interrogatory response?
8 MR. TREPANIER: Yes.
9 BY MR. TREPANIER:
10 Q When you reviewed these interrogatories
11 and saw yourself reported as the supervisor and your
12 understanding of -- what you just stated as your
13 understanding of what a supervisor does, did that
14 raise some concerns for you and how did you act on
15 that?
16 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to object. I think
17 that's a compound question. It misstates what the
18 interrogatory answer says. And I think on those
19 bases it's objectionable.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Your objections or
21 noted but overruled. Mr. Donovan, will you please
22 answer the question as put to you?
23 BY THE WITNESS:
24 A I reviewed the interrogatories. Did I
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
483
1 study line for line and word for word and there's a
2 lot of terminology in there that's fairly common, so
3 did I raise an objection, no, but did I -- I was
4 never requested or felt a need to examine it on that
5 level.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Thank you, sir.
7 Mr. Trepanier, can you move on to a new
8 question, please?
9 MR. TREPANIER: Yes.
10 BY MR. TREPANIER:
11 Q Did you have an occasion to look at a
12 contract for demolitions of buildings in the south
13 campus expansion area?
14 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'll object to relevance. We
15 should be talking about 1261 here.
16 MR. TREPANIER: I'm going to get there. The
17 1261 is in the south campus expansion.
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Perhaps you could
19 rephrase your question to specifically include 1261,
20 Mr. Trepanier. Objection sustained.
21 BY MR. TREPANIER:
22 Q Did you review contracts for the
23 demolition of university buildings in the south
24 campus area including 1261 Halsted?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
484
1 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Same objection.
2 MR. JEDDELOH: Yes.
3 MR. TREPANIER: I think that if this is the
4 only contract the man says he didn't review, I
5 should be able to inquire into that.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to let you
7 ask the question. Go ahead.
8 BY THE WITNESS:
9 A Well, I don't mean to be difficult. If
10 review in this case -- based on this last line of
11 questions, if review means was I involved in
12 processing the paperwork for the demolition, yes, I
13 was. If review means did I examine and make sure
14 every I was dotted and T was crossed, no, sir, I did
15 not. But yes, I did process the contract. I
16 believe I was involved with the processing of the
17 contract for 1261 South Halsted.
18 BY MR. TREPANIER:
19 Q And what was your responsibility when
20 reviewing that contract?
21 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to object. He just
22 stated that he didn't review the contract.
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained.
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
485
1 BY MR. TREPANIER:
2 Q What did you do with the contract from
3 1261 South Halsted when you received it?
4 A I processed it.
5 Q And what does that involve?
6 A It usually means that my signature is
7 required because of the amount of the expenditure or
8 that we had agreed that this was something that we
9 were going to do. So I would process the paperwork
10 as it came through.
11 Q Are you concerned that the contract meet
12 the specifications of the university?
13 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to object to that.
14 It's a global question. It certainly is beyond the
15 scope of relevancy of this case, and it's vague and
16 imprecise, so I object as to form as well.
17 MR. TREPANIER: I would point to in the
18 interrogatories the university's claim that every
19 contract specifies spraying water. So now I'm
20 inquiring as to who -- who knows whether or not this
21 contract did, who said that. My recollection is
22 yesterday Mr. Henderson had no idea if this contract
23 required spraying water, so now we're talking to his
24 supervisor who processed that paperwork did he look
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
486
1 to see if the contract required spraying water.
2 MR. JEDDELOH: I think the question is
3 objectionable, and I renew my objection.
4 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Can you rephrase the
5 question, Mr. Trepanier?
6 BY MR. TREPANIER:
7 Q When you processed the contract for
8 1261 Halsted, did you review that contract to see if
9 it required spraying water during demolition?
10 A No, I did not.
11 Q Is it the university policy to require
12 spraying water during demolitions?
13 A I don't -- you know, it's -- I guess my
14 answer is that we -- when I process these, when we
15 process it and we ask them to follow the customary
16 and accepted standards for doing whatever type of
17 work it is, and that specific thing I don't --
18 they've done it on all the sites, and I assumed that
19 that was a routine thing to do.
20 MR. TREPANIER: I'm going to ask that his
21 answer be stricken where he claims that it was done
22 on all the sites. That wasn't responsive to my
23 question regarding did the university -- is the
24 university policy to require watering. I didn't get
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
487
1 an answer to my question, but he volunteered some
2 information
3 MR. JEDDELOH: I think he reasonably and fairly
4 tried to respond, and he said basically that he
5 understood that Speedway and the other contractors
6 always used standard practices and so he didn't --
7 wasn't concerned about it.
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to overrule
9 the objection. Try to answer the question to the
10 best of your ability that's asked to you. And,
11 Mr. Trepanier, I think he did do that, so I think he
12 was just trying to give you an explanation, but I
13 will direct him to answer the questions as put to
14 him.
15 THE WITNESS: Thank you. I apologize.
16 BY MR. TREPANIER:
17 Q You state that the university always
18 sprays water on these jobs. What's your basis or
19 knowledge for that?
20 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, I'm going to object. He
21 didn't say the university always sprays water. It's
22 just not what he just said.
23 MR. TREPANIER: What did the attorney hear him
24 say?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
488
1 MS. MINNICK: Well, he assumed.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Trepanier, do you
3 have a response?
4 MR. TREPANIER: I guess I'll rephrase the
5 question if it's objectionable.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, if that's not
7 what he said, I'm going to sustain the objection.
8 Why don't you rephrase the question?
9 BY MR. TREPANIER:
10 Q Do you have any knowledge of whether or
11 not the university contractors spray water during
12 demolitions in the south campus area?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And how do you know that?
15 A I've observed them.
16 Q Now, did you -- you did state, didn't you,
17 that you visited the demolition with Mr. Henderson
18 on one occasion?
19 A At least one, yeah.
20 Q And on these other demolitions where you
21 observed spraying of water, did you likewise visit
22 those one time?
23 A Usually one. Sometimes a second time.
24 Q And is it your testimony that every time
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
489
1 you visited a demolition site you saw water being
2 sprayed?
3 A I couldn't say that every time I drove by
4 a site that there was water being sprayed. Every
5 time that I went by there wasn't -- they might have
6 just been stacking bricks, so I can't say that every
7 time I visited a site they were spraying water.
8 Q But you -- but you believe that you can
9 say that they -- that the university sprays water at
10 all of their demolitions?
11 A The university doesn't spray any water.
12 Q And -- okay.
13 So did you find the contract for 1261 --
14 the demolition at 1261 to be satisfactory?
15 A I believe so.
16 Q And what -- was there any criteria that
17 you used to make that determination?
18 A It was that we were following the
19 university procedure and processing the contract.
20 Q Now, when you say you were following
21 university procedure, do you mean that Mr. Henderson
22 followed university procedure?
23 A I believe he did.
24 Q And what procedure -- and did the
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
490
1 procedures -- and do you know what those procedures
2 are that Mr. Henderson is to follow?
3 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'm just going to object to
4 relevance on this whole line of questions. This has
5 nothing to do with the demolition or what happened
6 or whether air pollution --
7 MR. TREPANIER: We're still on the spraying of
8 water and whether or not the university requires
9 that.
10 MR. JEDDELOH: That's not the question. The
11 question is, I suppose, whether we follow the
12 purchasing act and our own internal processes and
13 procedures, and that's just not relevant to this
14 proceeding.
15 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Trepanier, why is
16 this relevant?
17 MR. TREPANIER: This is -- this goes to the
18 university's defense that they always require their
19 contractors to spray water and that it's a part of
20 their contractual documentation. That's the
21 responses that they've been giving both in their
22 motions to dismiss this case and in the
23 interrogatories.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: And what was your
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
491
1 last question?
2 MR. TREPANIER: It was if Mr. Donovan knows
3 what procedures Mr. Henderson goes through when
4 making up the contract since Mr. Donovan found it to
5 meet the criteria.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Do you know what
7 procedures he goes through, Mr. Donovan? If you can
8 answer the question, go ahead and answer it. I'm
9 going to overrule the objection.
10 BY THE WITNESS:
11 A My -- okay. I believe that Mr. Henderson
12 follows all the rules and regulations that are
13 outlined under the purchasing act and the policy and
14 rules and everything else that the university is to
15 follow to have a legal and binding agreement.
16 BY MR. TREPANIER:
17 Q And do any of those policies directly
18 address demolition?
19 A I mean, I'm not sure what the question
20 is.
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Trepanier, try to
22 rephrase it for him. If you don't know an answer,
23 sir, you don't have to answer. Just try to answer
24 the question to the best of your abilities. I don't
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
492
1 want you to make anything up. We just want to get
2 to the bottom of things.
3 THE WITNESS: Okay.
4 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Trepanier,
5 perhaps you could try again.
6 MR. TREPANIER: Okay.
7 BY MR. TREPANIER:
8 Q As part of your supervisory duties of
9 overseeing the work of Mr. Henderson and when you're
10 making a determination if the contract was proper
11 and you reflect on the procedures that Mr. Henderson
12 must follow to create a proper contract, do any of
13 those procedures directly address demolition?
14 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to object to the
15 compound nature of that question.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Just answer the
17 question if you can. Objection overruled.
18 BY THE WITNESS:
19 A I don't know.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay.
21 BY MR. TREPANIER:
22 Q So you don't know if the contract for the
23 demolition at 1261 Halsted required spraying water
24 or not?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
493
1 A No, I don't know.
2 Q But you did find that contract was
3 approvable even without that knowledge?
4 MR. JEDDELOH: Objection asked and answered. I
5 don't understand what we're going through this for.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained. He has
7 already answered that question, Mr. Trepanier.
8 BY MR. TREPANIER:
9 Q Does the university have a plan for
10 that -- for 1261 Halsted now?
11 A I don't know.
12 Q Are you familiar with Mr. Gimpel of the
13 university?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And do you believe that he would have
16 information whether the university has plans for
17 1261 South Halsted?
18 A I don't know.
19 Q What area of the university does
20 Mr. Gimpel work in?
21 A Currently, Mr. Gimpel is assisting on the
22 south campus development project.
23 Q And does the south campus development
24 project include that 1261 South Halsted?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
494
1 A I believe it falls within the boundaries
2 as defined in most public documents.
3 Q Were you aware that on some of the site
4 visits to the demolition at 1261 South Halsted by
5 Mr. Henderson that he had someone accompanying him?
6 A I wouldn't know. If I wasn't there, I
7 wouldn't know about that.
8 Q But Mr. Henderson never reported that to
9 you?
10 A Not that I could recall.
11 Q Did Mr. Henderson report about this --
12 about the activities occurring at that demolition at
13 any point?
14 A I'm sure he reported when the project was
15 completed as he always does.
16 Q Do you have a specific memory of him
17 reporting after that project completed?
18 A I couldn't give you a date, time, or place
19 when he would have done that, no.
20 Q Do you recall a -- do you recall that he
21 made some report to you when the demolition at 1261
22 was completed?
23 A Yeah. It was pretty standard that
24 whenever a facility -- or any project that he worked
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
495
1 on was completed he reported that it was completed.
2 Q And was that the extent of the report that
3 was completed, or did --
4 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Excuse me. I want to
5 interrupt.
6 Mr. Wager, are you leaving the
7 proceedings?
8 MR. WAGER: Yes. I have to check on my
9 vehicle.
10 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Just let the
11 record know that Complainant Wager is leaving the
12 hearing.
13 I'm sorry, Mr. Trepanier.
14 MR. TREPANIER: I think there was a question
15 outstanding.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Do you want us to --
17 MR. TREPANIER: Could it be read back?
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Do you want to read
19 back the last question?
20 (Whereupon, the record was read by
21 the court reporter.)
22 MR. TREPANIER: Strike that.
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: So the question is...
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
496
1 BY MR. TREPANIER:
2 Q The question is, was the extent -- as you
3 recall, was the extent of Mr. Henderson's report to
4 you that the demolition was completed?
5 A I believe so, I guess.
6 Q Was there any other information in the
7 report that you can recall?
8 A I can't recall anything at this time.
9 Q Were you aware that there was asbestos in
10 the building at 1261 South Halsted?
11 A I don't recall if I specifically knew that
12 at any time.
13 Q Did you -- was it ever reported to you
14 that asbestos was removed from the building at
15 1261 South Halsted?
16 A I can't recall.
17 Q Is it the policy of the university, as far
18 as you know, to notify adjacent property owners and
19 people in the area when a demolition is going to
20 occur?
21 A I don't know. We don't -- I don't do it.
22 I don't know. I don't know.
23 Q Do you ask Mr. Henderson to do that?
24 A No.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
497
1 Q Do you expect him to do that?
2 A No.
3 Q Do you think that would be a good policy?
4 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to object. That's
5 well beyond the scope of this witness' --
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained.
7 BY MR. TREPANIER:
8 Q How many demolitions have you viewed in
9 the south campus area?
10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. Relevance.
11 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained.
12 BY MR. TREPANIER:
13 Q How many times did you see the
14 university's contractor spray water at a demolition
15 in the south campus area?
16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. Relevance.
17 MR. JEDDELOH: And asked and answered.
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'll sustain both of
19 those, Mr. Trepanier.
20 MR. TREPANIER: Okay. It looks like I'm about
21 at the end here.
22 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Any further
23 questions?
24 MR. TREPANIER: None. Thank you.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
498
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Joseph, do you
2 have any questions.
3 MR. JOSEPH: Yes. I have a couple.
4 DIRECT EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. JOSEPH:
6 Q Mr. Donovan, you said you were the -- at
7 the time of this demolition you were the director of
8 operation maintenance?
9 A I believe that's what the title was at
10 that time, yes.
11 Q Okay. How long were you the director of
12 operation maintenance?
13 A A couple years.
14 Q What did you do before that?
15 A I was assistant to the director of
16 operations and maintenance.
17 Q And how about before that?
18 A I was the director of operations and
19 maintenance and the associate director in axillary
20 services, a different department of the university.
21 Q So you said on occasion you went to the
22 site and you -- to observe. What was your purpose
23 to observe?
24 A See that the project was in progress.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
499
1 Q Nothing else?
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Donovan, you have
3 to give an audible response.
4 BY THE WITNESS:
5 A Yeah. I'm just -- yeah. We go and
6 observe and see how it was progressing.
7 BY MR. JOSEPH:
8 Q You said something about the city vacating
9 the property.
10 A I don't believe I said anything about the
11 city vacating the property.
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Could you rephrase
13 your question, Mr. Joseph?
14 BY MR. JOSEPH:
15 Q Or the city vacating properties?
16 MR. JEDDELOH: Objection. Relevancy, form.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. I think I'm
18 going to have to sustain that unless you can be more
19 specific.
20 BY MR. JOSEPH:
21 Q Was this property purchased from the city?
22 MR. JEDDELOH: Objection. Relevancy.
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained.
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
500
1 BY MR. JOSEPH:
2 Q You said something that we agreed --
3 something about this demolition project that we
4 agreed to do. Is that correct, or was that the
5 statement you made? What did you mean when you said
6 we agreed?
7 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to object. I think
8 that's far too vague for him to provide a meaningful
9 response.
10 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. Mr. Joseph,
11 we're not trying to prevent you from asking
12 questions, but we need a question that the witness
13 can answer with some degree of reason.
14 MR. JOSEPH: Well, it was his statement that
15 there was an agreement that something was happening
16 here in this demolition in the way it was going on,
17 so I was just wondering who was in agreement because
18 we weren't able to find out about this policy, and I
19 was wondering...
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. I'm going to
21 have to sustain the objection. I don't understand
22 what the question is. If the witness understands,
23 he can answer.
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
501
1 BY THE WITNESS:
2 A No, sir. I don't understand.
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. If you can
4 rephrase, I'd be happy to have you ask that
5 question.
6 MR. JOSEPH: Okay.
7 BY MR. JOSEPH:
8 Q Well, you made a statement that we agreed
9 you were there because -- this was happening because
10 we agreed, and I was wondering who was in agreement
11 to demolish this building.
12 MR. JEDDELOH: Same question. Same objection.
13 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. I'll sustain.
14 Unless the witness can answer, Mr. Joseph, I'm going
15 to ask you to move on to a different question.
16 BY THE WITNESS:
17 A No, sir.
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay.
19 BY MR. JOSEPH:
20 Q You said you believe that you followed
21 these rules that Mr. Jeddeloh had talked about. Do
22 you know what those rules are?
23 MR. JEDDELOH: Again, Mr. Knittle, these
24 questions are extremely vague. It's impossible to
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
502
1 figure out what you're talking about. Are we
2 talking about the purchasing act now, because if
3 that's the question, then it's clearly irrelevant.
4 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. I'll have to
5 sustain the objection, Mr. Joseph. Once again, I'm
6 not trying to be difficult. We just have to have
7 questions that are fair for the witness to answer.
8 MR. JOSEPH: Okay.
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: He needs to know what
10 the question relates to.
11 If you don't have any further questions, I
12 can move on to Ms. Minnick.
13 MR. JOSEPH: Well, I'm trying to make a
14 question out of this because he made a statement,
15 and I was wondering who was responsible for --
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right, but I'm not
17 going to give you much more leeway here. We're
18 trying to keep things moving, and I'm going to move
19 on to Ms. Minnick unless you have a different
20 question.
21 MR. JOSEPH: Right, right.
22 (Brief pause.)
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Let's move
24 on.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
503
1 MR. JOSEPH: Yes. Let's move on.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Thank you,
3 Mr. Joseph.
4 Ms. Minnick, do you have any questions?
5 And, sir, your name is?
6 THE WITNESS: Donovan.
7 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Donovan. I
8 thought I was right.
9 Do you have any questions for Mr. Donovan?
10 MS. MINNICK: Yes, I do.
11 DIRECT EXAMINATION
12 BY MS. MINNICK:
13 Q Thank you, Mr. Donovan, for being here and
14 participating.
15 My first question is on the day that you
16 visited the demolition, did you see any dust leaving
17 the building?
18 A Not that I can recall.
19 Q Okay. And also, do you know of any other
20 buildings that are being considered for demolition
21 in the Maxwell Street area?
22 MR. JEDDELOH: Objection.
23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. Relevance.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'll sustain that on
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
504
1 relevancy. That's not relevant to this case,
2 Ms. Minnick.
3 MS. MINNICK: Okay. That's all then. Thank
4 you.
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Thank you very much.
6 Do we have any questions for Mr. Donovan?
7 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Not from Speedway.
8 MR. JEDDELOH: I have a couple on clarification.
9 CROSS EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. JEDDELOH:
11 Q Mr. Donovan, did you notice when you went
12 by whether or not Speedway was using water to
13 control dust?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And what stage of demolition did you
16 personally observe?
17 A It was very early on. They had the -- you
18 know, knocking down the bricks with the heavy
19 equipment.
20 Q Is the term hand wrecking a term that's
21 familiar to you?
22 A Uh-huh.
23 Q You have to say yes.
24 A Yes. I'm sorry. I apologize.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
505
1 Q Was this during the hand wrecking phase of
2 the operation that you actually visited the site?
3 A I don't believe so.
4 Q So it was at a later stage?
5 A Later stage.
6 Q Do you recall where the water was coming
7 from that they were using to water the site?
8 A I believe from the fire hydrant.
9 Q And do you recall the location of the fire
10 hydrant?
11 A No, I don't.
12 MR. JEDDELOH: That's all the questions I
13 have.
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay.
15 Mr. Blankenship, you didn't have any.
16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: No.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Anything from this
18 side?
19 MR. TREPANIER: Yes.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Do you realize you're
21 limited --
22 MR. TREPANIER: To redirect, right.
23
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
506
1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. TREPANIER:
3 Q Do you have any knowledge whether water
4 was sprayed during the hand wrecking at 1261 South
5 Halsted?
6 MR. JEDDELOH: Foundation.
7 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to overrule
8 the objection, but he has already answered this
9 question on direct, but go ahead and answer again,
10 Mr. Donovan.
11 BY THE WITNESS:
12 A I wasn't -- I didn't observe during the
13 hand wrecking phrase.
14 BY MR. TREPANIER:
15 Q And did you receive any advice regarding
16 your testimony today?
17 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to object. I think
18 that that is clearly invading the attorney-client
19 privilege. He's entitled to ask --
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: He can ask the
21 question, but he doesn't have to -- as I understand,
22 and correct me if I'm wrong, he can ask the
23 question, but he doesn't have to get into any of the
24 discussion that was had.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
507
1 MR. JEDDELOH: I believe he can ask whether or
2 not he met with his attorney.
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Why don't you
4 rephrase your question along that line?
5 BY MR. TREPANIER:
6 Q Mr. Donovan, did you meet with your
7 attorney to prepare for your testimony today?
8 A Yes, I did.
9 Q And when you saw water being used at
10 1261 Halsted, where were you observing from?
11 A Halsted Street.
12 MR. TREPANIER: I would like to show the
13 witness the Exhibit Number 1, and I'm going to point
14 to that box that's marked 1261 and then point to
15 Halsted Street, that spot marked Halsted Street.
16 BY MR. TREPANIER:
17 Q Could you point to a spot on this map
18 where you observed from?
19 A I would have been on the southbound side
20 of Halsted Street somewhere in this vicinity a
21 little bit to the south, you know. This was in --
22 pretty much the driveway of --
23 MR. JOSEPH: This place is --
24 MR. JEDDELOH: Let him finish.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
508
1 BY THE WITNESS:
2 A If this is southbound Halsted Street,
3 which I believe it is --
4 MR. JOSEPH: Yes.
5 BY THE WITNESS:
6 A -- the observation was in a vehicle pulled
7 along the curb here and --
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Let the record
9 reflect that he is indicating Halsted Street nearby
10 the intersection of 13th Street on the southbound
11 side, you said, sir?
12 BY THE WITNESS:
13 A Southbound.
14 BY MR. TREPANIER:
15 Q Thank you.
16 And did you exit your car?
17 A I don't recall.
18 Q When -- well, when you visit demolition
19 sites, was it your practice to exit your car?
20 A Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't.
21 Q And was it -- when you say -- and when you
22 showed where you had your observation from on
23 southbound Halsted, is that when you claim to have
24 seen the watering being done?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
509
1 A Yes.
2 Q And where was the hose being sprayed?
3 A I don't think I understand the question.
4 Q When you saw watering, where was the
5 watering occurring?
6 A On the con -- on the demolition side.
7 Q But specifically when you saw the
8 watering, where was it occurring?
9 MR. JEDDELOH: Objection. Asked and answered.
10 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Overruled. Maybe you
11 could rephrase, though, if you're asking for a
12 specific location or something.
13 MR. TREPANIER: Yeah.
14 BY MR. TREPANIER:
15 Q I'm asking for a specific location that
16 you saw the watering occurring.
17 A 1261 South Halsted.
18 Q Do you have any recollection if it was at
19 the back of the building or the front of the
20 building, the side?
21 A I -- I can't recall.
22 Q What do you recall about the watering?
23 What is your recollection about that watering that
24 was going on?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
510
1 A There was a hose. There was water. It
2 was, you know, off of a fire hydrant.
3 Q And you don't recall where that fire
4 hydrant was?
5 A Not exactly, no.
6 Q Was the hose in the street?
7 A I don't -- I don't know.
8 Q Was the hose in front of the building?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Did the hose enter the building?
11 A I believe so.
12 Q And what else was occurring at the time
13 that that hose was inside the building? What was
14 going on in the demolition site?
15 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, I'm going to object.
16 That's beyond the scope of my clarification.
17 MR. TREPANIER: I think he listed testimony
18 that the man saw watering on, and I'm just inquiring
19 into what he saw.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'll overrule, but
21 you're going to have to be -- that's a little bit
22 vague, I think, for him to answer. Why don't you
23 try to tighten that up a little bit?
24 MR. TREPANIER: Okay.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
511
1 BY MR. TREPANIER:
2 Q I think that you testified that there was
3 heavy equipment in operation when you visited the
4 site, the demolition on 1261 Halsted; is that
5 correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Was the heavy equipment in operation?
8 A Yes, it was.
9 Q And what piece of equipment was that? Can
10 you name it or describe it?
11 A It was a large front end loader type
12 vehicle, I believe it was.
13 Q And how was that front loader being used?
14 A To demolish the building.
15 Q And did you have a clear view of the front
16 loader?
17 A I saw it.
18 Q And did you have a clear view of the
19 building it was demolishing?
20 A It was -- yes. I guess, yes.
21 Q And did you see any water being sprayed?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And where was that water being sprayed?
24 A From a hose, you know, on the site.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
512
1 Q In relation to the piece of heavy
2 equipment, where was the water being sprayed?
3 A I can't recall.
4 MR. TREPANIER: I think that's it. No more
5 questions.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Do we have any
7 questions from Mr. Joseph or Ms. Minnick?
8 MS. MINNICK: No.
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Joseph?
10 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. JOSEPH:
12 Q Do you remember how long the hose was?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Do you remember, were they firing it up or
15 just into the -- up into the top floor?
16 A Most of the building was down. With this
17 recollection, it was on top of the rubble pile as
18 they were moving it around.
19 MR. JOSEPH: Okay. No further questions.
20 MR. TREPANIER: Can I ask just to clarify the
21 answers I got?
22 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: No. You've had your
23 opportunity to do your redirect.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Ms. Minnick, did you
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
513
1 have anything?
2 MS. MINNICK: No. Thank you.
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay.
4 MR. TREPANIER: If I could, if in this instance
5 the witness on the redirect gave information that
6 conflicted with what I just elicited on redirect,
7 can I clarify that?
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm not going to
9 allow any more clarification unless it's done by the
10 Respondents. It's their turn to clarify, if they
11 want --
12 MR. JEDDELOH: I have nothing more.
13 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: -- kind of a
14 reclarification.
15 Then no. You've had your opportunity to
16 redirect. You can be excused. Thank you very much
17 for your time.
18 MR. JEDDELOH: Thank you, Mr. Donovan.
19 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
20 MR. BLANKENSHIP: We have Phil Mergener here.
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Are you ready for
22 Phil Mergener, or do you need a little break,
23 Mr. Trepanier?
24 MR. TREPANIER: A short break would be good for
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
514
1 me.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Let's call a
3 ten-minute recess.
4 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.)
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: We are back on the
6 record. We have a new witness.
7 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yes. I would like to ask,
8 before we start, the videotape question of the
9 witness.
10 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. You can start.
11 Let's swear him in before we get started. Can you
12 swear him in, please?
13 Could you identify yourself, too?
14 THE WITNESS: My name is Phil Mergener,
15 M-e-r-g-e-n-e-r.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Now if you'll
17 swear him in, please.
18 (The witness was duly sworn.)
19 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Mr. Mergener, did you have an
20 objection to having your testimony here videotaped
21 today?
22 THE WITNESS: I do not want it videotaped.
23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And I'll go on record as
24 saying Speedway does not want to participate in the
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
515
1 making of any documentary or any propaganda that can
2 be used against the university.
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Understood.
4 Mr. Joseph, I'm going to ask you to turn off the
5 videotape.
6 MR. JOSEPH: It's off. It's off.
7 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Then the
8 Complainants' witness is Mr. Mergener.
9 Mr. Trepanier, are you going to start off
10 again?
11 MR. TREPANIER: Yes, I will.
12 During this witness' testimony, we're
13 going to ask him to interpret some piece of the time
14 lapse video.
15 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Do you have that set
16 up and ready to go?
17 MR. TREPANIER: I was seeking the tape, but I
18 hadn't located it yet.
19 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I took the tape during
20 the break.
21 Let's go off the record.
22 (Whereupon, a discussion was held off
23 the record.)
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Let's go back on the
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
516
1 record.
2 Mr. Trepanier, I understand your request.
3 If, in fact, it comes to the point where we need the
4 videotape, I'll go upstairs and get it for you.
5 MR. TREPANIER: Thank you.
6 PHIL MERGENER,
7 called as an adverse witness herein, having been
8 first duly sworn, was examined upon oral
9 interrogatories, and testified as follows:
10 DIRECT EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. TREPANIER:
12 Q Good day, Mr. Mergener. Thank you for
13 participating here today.
14 What function do you perform for Speedway
15 Wrecking?
16 A I'm an estimator.
17 Q Are you a manager?
18 A I'm an estimator.
19 Q Would that be a no to my question?
20 A That's my title, estimator.
21 Q Did you assist in the preparation of
22 Speedway Wrecking Company's answers to Petitioners'
23 interrogatories?
24 A I don't know anything about it.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
517
1 Q Did you have principal responsibility for
2 the demolition of the Halsted property, 1261?
3 A I figured the number of loads of wood that
4 were leaving the property and helped put together a
5 price.
6 Q Does it surprise you that the Speedway's
7 interrogatories stated that you were the principal --
8 you were one of two principal -- Speedway's
9 principal employees responsible for the demolition
10 of the Halsted property?
11 A I put together the number of loads in the
12 estimate for the project. We submitted a price to
13 the university. That was my only involvement.
14 Q So you helped prepare the bid for the
15 property?
16 A Yes, I did.
17 Q Did you spray water at 1261 South Halsted?
18 A Me personally, no.
19 Q Did you see someone else spray water at
20 1261 South Halsted?
21 A I drove by the job a couple times because
22 it's between our office and downtown, and I saw them
23 using a hose to control the dust.
24 Q I'm going to show you an exhibit. This is
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
518
1 the Complainants' Exhibit 1. On this exhibit, this
2 box is marked 1261, and that's the building that was
3 to be demolished. Here, this is the end showing
4 north.
5 Now, this is to represent Halsted Street
6 where it says Halsted. Could you point on the
7 exhibit the location that you were when you made
8 your observation?
9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Well, objection. On which
10 date? He said he drove by a couple times and so...
11 BY THE WITNESS:
12 A I was on Halsted Street.
13 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Your objection would
14 be sustained. Would you like to clarify that a
15 little bit, Mr. Trepanier?
16 MR. TREPANIER: Okay.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Unless that's the
18 extent of his answer.
19 THE WITNESS: That's my answer.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay.
21 BY MR. TREPANIER:
22 Q And did you pull your vehicle over?
23 A No.
24 Q So your observation was from a moving
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
519
1 vehicle?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q And did you recognize the person you saw
4 using a hose?
5 A I didn't look that closely.
6 Q Where were they spraying the hose?
7 A On the rear of the building, I think.
8 Q Do you know which day that was that you
9 observed spraying on the rear of the building?
10 A No.
11 Q Now, again, looking at the exhibit, when
12 you were on Halsted Street, what was -- what was
13 happening there at the rear of the building besides
14 spraying water?
15 A They were demolishing the building.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I want to ask a point
17 of clarification.
18 What, Mr. Trepanier, are you indicating to
19 be the rear of the building on that map? I'm asking
20 you, Mr. Trepanier. You're asking the question in
21 the rear of the building. And actually, he referred
22 to the rear of the building, too, if you could both
23 show me. The witness first.
24 THE WITNESS: This is north.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
520
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right.
2 THE WITNESS: The building was on the east side
3 of Halsted Street.
4 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: And you are referring --
5 THE WITNESS: And I would say that the east
6 side of the building would be the rear because the
7 store front was on Halsted Street.
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: So when we're
9 referring to the rear of the building, we're
10 referring to the east side of the building.
11 MR. TREPANIER: Thank you.
12 BY MR. TREPANIER:
13 Q How many floors remained of the building?
14 A I don't remember. It was a casual thing.
15 Q Was there walls up?
16 A I think so.
17 Q What phase of demolition were they in?
18 A I don't remember.
19 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: And, Mr. Joseph, I
20 want to caution you as I cautioned Mr. Trepanier
21 before you that when he's doing direct examination,
22 I don't want you two conferencing back and forth.
23 MR. JOSEPH: It's just going to be real
24 difficult to get back into something that they're
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
521
1 right on, the path.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I understand, but
3 that's how it's got to be, so if you have a
4 question, write down what you want to ask when it's
5 your turn to ask, and we'll get back to that. Thank
6 you.
7 Mr. Trepanier...
8 BY MR. TREPANIER:
9 Q Did you recognize the person spraying the
10 hose?
11 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Asked and answered.
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained.
13 BY MR. TREPANIER:
14 Q And what was the source of water?
15 A We used the Chicago hydrants.
16 Q Now, when you say we, did you have some
17 involvement with the demolition -- with using water
18 at 1261?
19 A I say we because it's a typical practice
20 to get a permit to use the hydrant.
21 Q And was there such a permit?
22 A I think so.
23 Q Did you --
24 A It's part of the demolition process.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
522
1 Q Did you see the permit?
2 A No. It comes after the permit for
3 demolition.
4 Q Did anyone tell you there was a permit for
5 a hydrant?
6 A No.
7 Q So you don't actually have any knowledge
8 whether or not there was a hydrant permit, do you?
9 A I do know that you cannot get a demolition
10 permit unless you pay for using the hydrant.
11 Q Is the hydrant permit issued for the
12 entire length of the demolition?
13 A It's issued for the number of days that
14 the water department thinks you're going to use it.
15 Q And what does the water department base
16 their belief on, if you know?
17 A I don't know.
18 Q But you testified that the -- it is your
19 understanding that in a regular demolition process,
20 the water department forecasts how long a demolition
21 is going to take and then issues a permit for a
22 period?
23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. That misstates
24 his testimony.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
523
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained.
2 Mr. Trepanier, could you rephrase that?
3 BY MR. TREPANIER:
4 Q Is it -- do you believe that the water
5 department makes a projection on how long a
6 demolition is going to last?
7 A I think that they give you a permit for a
8 week or two weeks depending upon the size of the
9 building from the pictures that they see. It's not
10 very scientific. There is no scale. There is no
11 rule of thumb.
12 Q And does that permit -- is that permit
13 required to use a hydrant?
14 A You need to pay the city for the use of
15 the water.
16 Q And if you had a permit for one week and
17 your demolition took five weeks, is that permit
18 still valid?
19 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. Speculation and
20 foundation.
21 MR. JEDDELOH: Relevance.
22 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And relevance.
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained.
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
524
1 BY MR. TREPANIER:
2 Q I believe you said that you drove by on a
3 couple of occasions. Did you observe -- did you
4 take -- did you take the time to observe 1261 on
5 both of the times that you went by?
6 A No. I drove by, took a glance at it, and
7 saw we were working there.
8 Q And was that on more than one occasion or
9 just the one that you described?
10 A I think I already said it was a couple of
11 occasions.
12 Q And then on the occasions other than the
13 one you described, what did you see?
14 A I drove by. It was a glance. You can't
15 stop and stare. Traffic won't permit it on Halsted.
16 Q So it's your --
17 A There's no room to pull off the side of
18 the road and watch what's going on.
19 Q So you say it's not even -- it's not
20 physically possible to get an observation from that
21 place in a car?
22 A When you're driving by, you can see the
23 people are working there or they're not working
24 there, but that's all.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
525
1 Q Okay. And on the occasions that you went
2 by and glanced other than the one you described, did
3 you see people working?
4 A This is the same question, isn't it?
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to ask you
6 to answer the question unless one of your attorneys
7 objects on your behalf.
8 BY THE WITNESS:
9 A We were working there on the two occasions
10 that I drove by.
11 BY MR. TREPANIER:
12 Q Did you observe -- did you observe work
13 going on when you went by on that second occasion?
14 A Observe and see people working? I saw
15 people working.
16 Q And what were they doing?
17 A Knocking the building down.
18 Q And was that in the hand wrecking phase?
19 A I honestly would say that it was probably
20 once. Maybe I noticed it in the beginning of the
21 job, which would be the hand portion, and once
22 towards the end of the job when it was -- I think
23 they had a piece of heavy equipment there.
24 Q And which of those did you describe
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
526
1 earlier? Was that at the beginning of the job, or
2 was that the --
3 A I don't remember. This was a long time
4 ago.
5 Q But you did testify -- you did testify
6 that you observed a hose being sprayed at the rear
7 of 1261 South Halsted?
8 A I know we had a hose on the job. I don't
9 know when I drove by as far as what floor they were
10 on if they were doing all the work by hand or if
11 they had the equipment by.
12 Q How do you know there was a hose on the
13 job?
14 A I think 13th Place or 13th Street was
15 closed.
16 Q And is that related to the hose?
17 A No. I think it was related to the fact
18 that while we were working, the street was closed or
19 there wasn't anybody using it or -- I don't
20 remember. I'm trying to remember, but I don't
21 remember.
22 Q Okay. Now, I know you've just had a quick
23 look, you testified your vehicle was moving, but did
24 you see any physical barriers on 13th Street closing
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
527
1 that street that you recall?
2 A I think we had a canopy up, but again,
3 we've done a lot of jobs, and as I say, I'm the
4 estimator. Once the jobs get started, we turn it
5 over to somebody else. And I know that in this
6 area, this part of the city in particular, that it's
7 highly regulated. Any street closures or sidewalks
8 being closed, there's a reason for it. You have a
9 permit for it. You have to follow what the street
10 departments call for.
11 Q When you say this area is highly
12 regulated, is that because of the nature of the
13 district?
14 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. Speculation as to
15 what it is.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Overruled. If you
17 know the answer, you can answer.
18 BY THE WITNESS:
19 A Whenever you have a lot of people in a
20 part of the city such as Halsted and Roosevelt, it
21 seems like you have more people from the street
22 department or city inspectors patrolling the area.
23 BY MR. TREPANIER:
24 Q And was there a lot of people on the
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
528
1 street when you went by?
2 A Halsted is always crowded in the middle of
3 the day.
4 Q Well, is there -- did you have -- is there
5 anything that -- is there anything that you can rely
6 on that indicated to you that there was a hose on
7 the job?
8 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm sorry. Could I have that
9 question read back, please?
10 (Whereupon, the record was read by
11 the court reporter.)
12 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'm going to object. We've
13 pretty much exhausted the area of the watering. He
14 drove by twice and had glanced at the building, and
15 this is asked and answered ad nauseam.
16 MR. TREPANIER: I would respond that we did
17 talk about the hose for a while, and I asked a very
18 similar question and -- but at that time, we went
19 into the fact that 13th Street may have been closed,
20 and we didn't address this.
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to overrule
22 it. Answer that question.
23 THE WITNESS: What's the question again?
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
529
1 (Whereupon, the record was read by
2 the court reporter.)
3 BY THE WITNESS:
4 A You have to excuse me. I'm not an
5 attorney, so I don't know what all the words imply
6 or mean. We always have a hose on our jobs.
7 BY MR. TREPANIER:
8 Q And was there anything else that would
9 have -- that you observed that would have indicated
10 that there was a hose on the job?
11 A My recollection is seeing a hose on the
12 job the couple of times that I drove by, but I'm
13 sorry, I didn't take a picture.
14 Q Are you saying that you saw a hose on both
15 times you drove by?
16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. Asked and
17 answered.
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'll sustain that
19 one.
20 MR. TREPANIER: But this was just a different
21 answer. The first time it was that there was a hose
22 one time, and now he just stated he saw hoses both
23 times. I just ask the witness to clarify.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Can you clarify,
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
530
1 sir?
2 BY THE WITNESS:
3 A Part of our job is to control the dust,
4 and the only way we've got to do that is with a
5 water hose, so it's part of what we do.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Is that sufficient,
7 Mr. Trepanier, or do you --
8 MR. TREPANIER: Well, I'm really not getting a
9 clear answer to the question that I'm asking. I
10 know -- maybe if I ask the question and use
11 different words, it might be --
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, ask the
13 question one last time.
14 MR. TREPANIER: Okay.
15 BY MR. TREPANIER:
16 Q When you went by the demolition twice, did
17 you -- do you have a specific recollection of seeing
18 a hose there on both occasions?
19 A I can say that I went by it at least
20 twice, and I can say I know we used water on the
21 job. Whether it was being used at that very moment
22 I can't say.
23 Q Okay. And your knowledge of the fact that
24 you used water on the job is based on your
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
531
1 experience working with Speedway; is that correct?
2 A We have to use water.
3 Q And your belief that water was being used
4 here is based on that knowledge that that's the
5 practice and not based on actually having seen the
6 water being used; isn't that correct?
7 A I know we had a hose on the job.
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to ask you
9 to answer the question if you saw a hose being used
10 or not.
11 THE WITNESS: I've answered it many times.
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm asking you right
13 now to answer the question.
14 BY THE WITNESS:
15 A We had a hose on the job.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: But did you see a
17 hose?
18 THE WITNESS: I saw a hose on the job, and I
19 saw it squirting up in the air.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Is that sufficient,
21 Mr. Trepanier?
22 BY MR. TREPANIER:
23 Q Was that on both occasions or on one
24 occasion?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
532
1 A At least one occasion.
2 Q And that's the one you described earlier
3 at the rear of 1261?
4 A You're asking me to remember something
5 that was over two, three, four -- how long ago was
6 this?
7 Q I just asked if you could, you know,
8 clarify my understanding. I really -- I do
9 appreciate that you also are struggling to answer
10 the questions, and I just want to go into this a
11 little bit further because this -- as you
12 understand, the use of the hose is very important.
13 I appreciate that.
14 Was there a crane on the site when you saw
15 the hose being sprayed at the rear of 1261 South
16 Halsted?
17 A I don't remember.
18 Q And do you know how tall the building was
19 at 1261 South Halsted?
20 A I think it was four stories.
21 Q And when you were on Halsted Street, how
22 is it that you observed a hose at the rear of 1261
23 South Halsted?
24 A What would be the rear?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
533
1 Q Where you indicated earlier.
2 A From where to where?
3 Q It would be --
4 A Half the building?
5 Q Just right on the east end of the building
6 where you earlier indicated the rear.
7 A If I remember, what I saw was activity on
8 this side of the building towards the rear.
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Let the record
10 reflect that the witness is now pointing to the
11 south side of the building.
12 BY MR. TREPANIER:
13 Q And that's 13th Street; is that right?
14 A I get confused. I don't know if that's
15 13th Street, 13th Place.
16 Q Okay.
17 A I don't have a map.
18 Q Okay. And isn't that the street that you
19 saw that may have been closed?
20 A Well, is this the street or an alley?
21 Q That's what you're pointing to, 13th Street
22 there on the map.
23 A I think at the time there was a barricade
24 in front of it, not closed.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
534
1 Q Not closed.
2 A There's always some traffic to the east.
3 Q Okay. And that barricade extended into
4 13th Street, do you know?
5 A If it was a barricade, it would have been
6 out here towards Halsted Street.
7 Q And that barricade was between you and the
8 side of the building on 13th Street; isn't that
9 right?
10 A We used flashing horses, flashers we call
11 them, barricades that are folding. They're about
12 three feet high.
13 Q And the barricades were there in addition
14 to the -- I don't know if -- did you earlier refer
15 to an awning?
16 A Right.
17 Q Did you observe -- when you went by, did
18 you see any kind of a structure in front of 1261?
19 A We usually put a fence up, and then if the
20 city requires a canopy, we put the canopy up.
21 Q Was there a canopy up there?
22 A I don't remember.
23 Q Now, the canopy, if it were in -- the
24 front of that building was quite a bit closer to you
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
535
1 on Halsted Street than the rear of the building,
2 wasn't it?
3 A I don't understand.
4 Q I'm just trying to figure out how it is
5 that you saw down 13th Street to the rear of the
6 building to a hose spraying but can't recall whether
7 a canopy was in front of the building.
8 A I know you're familiar with the street. A
9 lot of times the traffic stops because people were
10 double parked. It's not easy to drive quickly down
11 Halsted Street. If, you know, you're working or if
12 your company is working on, let's say, this building
13 and you're driving down Halsted, it's quite easy to
14 look over a moveable barricade with one of those
15 flashing lights on it and see if your guys are
16 working on a four-story building. That casual
17 observation is enough, too, to say we're working
18 there in my mind, and it's also enough to say
19 there's a hose spraying.
20 Q And that's because you saw that hose; is
21 that right?
22 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Asked and answered --
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained.
24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: -- five times.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
536
1 BY MR. TREPANIER:
2 Q Now, you've indicated the location of the
3 hose spraying at two places along that building.
4 Was it being sprayed from one place to another, or
5 were you incorrect earlier when you indicated the
6 east side of the building?
7 A If I remember correctly, there was very
8 little room in the east side of the building because
9 that was the alley. And I never indicated the east
10 side of the building. All of our activity was
11 staged on the south side of the building towards the
12 rear. That was the only access we had to the job.
13 Q So if I understand, you're testifying that
14 Speedway did not use the alley behind 1261 South
15 Halsted?
16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'm going to object. He says
17 he drove by twice. He was the estimator for the
18 job. This is not the right witness to be asking for
19 chapter and verse on the demolition. This is
20 ridiculous.
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to sustain,
22 Mr. Trepanier. I think -- I don't think he quite
23 knows, but if you want to rephrase your question,
24 you can. But actually, we're getting kind of far
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
537
1 afield here from what this witness knows, so if you
2 have anything else for him...
3 BY MR. TREPANIER:
4 Q How much wood was removed at 1261?
5 A I don't remember.
6 Q And where was that wood taken?
7 A To a landfill.
8 Q Are you familiar with the use of debris or
9 demolition shoots?
10 A Yes, I am.
11 (Whereupon, Mr. Wager entered the
12 hearing room.)
13 BY MR. TREPANIER:
14 Q Would a piece of wood pass through a
15 demolition shoot?
16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. Piece of wood,
17 what is -- can he be more specific as to what he
18 means by a piece of wood?
19 BY MR. TREPANIER:
20 Q Would a two-by-four pass through a shoot?
21 A What kind of shoot?
22 Q A demolition or debris shoot.
23 A A short piece, yes.
24 Q And what restricts that wood? What
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
538
1 restricts it to being a short piece of wood?
2 A I don't understand what you mean by
3 restricts.
4 Q Why wouldn't a large -- say, a full-size
5 two-by-four fit through the shoot?
6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: What is full size, eight
7 feet, ten feet, six feet?
8 MR. TREPANIER: Excuse me. Let me be more
9 specific.
10 BY MR. TREPANIER:
11 Q Let's say an eight-foot two-by-four, what
12 would prevent that --
13 A Large pieces of wood get stuck in the
14 shoot.
15 Q And are you familiar with the ability of a
16 shoot to pass, say, gravel, bricks, dust?
17 A I don't understand.
18 Q The -- would, say, the gravel, bricks, or
19 dust have that same difficulty as a big two-by-four
20 in getting stuck in a shoot?
21 A Granular material would pass easily
22 through a shoot.
23 Q And would it -- would that granular
24 material be contained in the shoot all the way to
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
539
1 the ground?
2 A It depends on the application.
3 Q When you say it depends on the application,
4 what is -- I'm showing my inexperience with your
5 expertise. What applications might there be?
6 A I don't know what you're talking about.
7 What do you want me to say?
8 Q I'm just -- I'm trying to learn from you
9 that -- in your experience, you know, what
10 applications are these shoots put to.
11 A We use them to move rubbish.
12 Q And that's from -- is that to move rubbish
13 from upper floors down to the ground?
14 A Yeah. You're using gravity, so if you're
15 moving from one floor to another or -- roofers use
16 them on the outside of buildings.
17 Q And have you personally experienced the
18 use with a shoot?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And what did you use a shoot for?
21 A I think you use shoots for different
22 natures. Sometimes we use an enclosed elevator
23 shaft.
24 Q And that could be considered a shoot?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
540
1 A In our business, yes.
2 Q Okay. And how about a shoot on the
3 exterior of a building, have you had any experience
4 with an exterior shoot?
5 A We've used them.
6 Q And what -- how were those used?
7 A We did some demolition work on a 20-story
8 building. We used it on the outside because it was
9 the only way to get the material out.
10 Q I'm just going to look over my notes here
11 for a moment.
12 MR. TREPANIER: I have no more questions.
13 Thank you.
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Joseph, do you
15 have any questions of Mr. Mergener?
16 MR. JOSEPH: Yes, I do.
17 DIRECT EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. JOSEPH:
19 Q Do you know, does the city have stricter
20 regulations for a busy street like Maxwell Street?
21 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to object. I think
22 he's asking for testimony for which a foundation
23 hasn't been laid, and I think it would require this
24 witness to testify as to legal matters.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
541
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to overrule
2 to the extent that you know and to the extent that
3 Mr. Trepanier covered some of this on his direct.
4 If you can answer that question, sir, please do.
5 BY THE WITNESS:
6 A I don't know.
7 BY MR. JOSEPH:
8 Q Okay. As an estimator -- let me start
9 over.
10 Do you do anything besides estimating?
11 A It's not a very large company. I answer
12 the phone.
13 Q Okay. So you don't get into the hand
14 wrecking and all that?
15 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Also, sir, you have
16 to say yes or no. Otherwise, the court reporter
17 can't pick it up.
18 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
19 BY THE WITNESS:
20 A No.
21 BY MR. JOSEPH:
22 Q But you would figure a job differently
23 that was on Halsted than a job that was on a side
24 street?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
542
1 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. Speculation.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. I'll sustain
3 that. You could rephrase that where it would be an
4 answerable question, Mr. Joseph.
5 BY MR. JOSEPH:
6 Q Would you figure a job differently on a
7 busy street like Halsted?
8 A If the job is a building that's out in the
9 open, you figure it one way. If the building is
10 surrounded by people and other buildings, you figure
11 it yet a different way.
12 Q So are you aware of any regulations that
13 the city would have on a street like Halsted that
14 would affect your estimating?
15 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to object. I believe
16 he said he doesn't know about the regulations.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained. I think
18 that's been asked previously, Mr. Joseph
19 MR. JOSEPH: All right.
20 BY MR. JOSEPH:
21 Q How about a job with like the university,
22 is there any different regulations for estimating
23 state jobs?
24 A Any government job requires prevailing
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
543
1 wage. Is that what you mean?
2 Q Is there anything else?
3 A Demolition instructions are different for
4 different customers. Besides prevailing wage,
5 that's all I know.
6 Q Do you have any guidelines like water
7 spraying or anything else that state jobs require?
8 A All jobs require water.
9 Q And who requires that?
10 A Illinois EPA, city of Chicago, federal
11 government, Cook County.
12 Q So whose job is it to check to see that
13 Speedway is doing that?
14 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Well, objection. Speculation.
15 Again, he's an estimator. He's not a superintendent.
16 He is not involved in the demolition process.
17 MR. TREPANIER: If I might address that,
18 Mr. Blankenship prepared the interrogatories and
19 said that he was the manager.
20 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to object. I believe
21 Mr. Trepanier is now representing this other
22 interrogator.
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: That's sustained.
24 Mr. Trepanier, it's Mr. Joseph's direct examination
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
544
1 right now.
2 Mr. Joseph, do you have a question
3 prepared?
4 MR. JOSEPH: Yes. Okay.
5 BY MR. JOSEPH:
6 Q So -- let's see. Where were we?
7 MR. JOSEPH: So he can't answer that question?
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Do you know the
9 question? I'll overrule it.
10 MR. JOSEPH: I was kind of interrupted here,
11 and I kind of forgot what my question was. If we
12 could repeat it...
13 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Can you repeat that?
14 I was going to allow him to answer that question.
15 (Whereupon, the record was read by
16 the court reporter.)
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: You can answer that
18 question to the extent that you know.
19 BY THE WITNESS:
20 A My boss, Larry Kolko, was one of the
21 owners. He is directly responsible for the field
22 operations on most instances.
23 BY MR. JOSEPH:
24 Q So what if he's not there?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
545
1 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Same objection.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Overruled.
3 BY THE WITNESS:
4 A I don't understand the question.
5 BY MR. JOSEPH:
6 Q Well, he's not on the job site, so who
7 would be in charge if he's not there?
8 A The foreman.
9 Q Do you know who the foreman was on this
10 job?
11 A I think it was Greg Hernandez.
12 Q You said you thought 13th Street was
13 closed?
14 A I thought I saw a barricade, like one of
15 those folding horse barricades with the flashing
16 light on it, across the entrance to the street. I'm
17 not sure if that's 13th Street or 13th Place.
18 Q Was this during the hand wrecking phase?
19 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Asked and answered. We've
20 gone through this in laborious detail.
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right. I'll sustain
22 that objection. Mr. Joseph, that's already been
23 covered.
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
546
1 BY MR. JOSEPH:
2 Q How much would it cost to put a shoot on
3 this job?
4 A I don't understand.
5 Q Well, just like a rough estimate. I mean,
6 would it be $1,000 more, 10,000?
7 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'm going to object. It
8 calls him for to speculate about a job three years
9 ago that he barely remembers without more
10 information.
11 MR. JOSEPH: An average --
12 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Let me finish my objection.
13 He's asking him now to render an expert
14 opinion on what the cost of a shoot would be without
15 giving him all the facts. He shouldn't be -- have
16 to give a spur-of-the-moment opinion on something he
17 barely remembers without getting all of the
18 information an estimator would consider for a job
19 like this. It's an unfair question. They had an
20 opportunity to get an expert witness on this point,
21 and they chose not to do it.
22 MR. JOSEPH: Okay. He said he's an estimator.
23 Can I --
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'll overrule. You
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
547
1 can ask him for his best estimate.
2 BY MR. JOSEPH:
3 Q Right. So go ahead.
4 A I never considered a shoot for the job
5 because it wasn't that tall a building. What it
6 would cost to put it up, I would probably go to a
7 subcontractor and ask for a price. I don't know.
8 Q So you would sub something like that out?
9 A Correct. We could do it down the elevator
10 shaft. We've done it down stairwells. We've done
11 it down mechanical shafts. A formal shoot typically
12 isn't part of a demolition project.
13 Q So have you ever done a shoot estimate?
14 A I answered that question.
15 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Asked and answered.
16 BY MR. JOSEPH:
17 Q And do you remember roughly what the cost
18 is?
19 A No, I don't.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: He's answered your
21 question.
22 BY MR. JOSEPH:
23 Q How do they -- when they're hand wrecking,
24 do how they use the water hose? Explain how that
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
548
1 works.
2 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. No foundation.
3 He was not involved in the demolition. He drove by
4 on two occasions and took a glance at the building.
5 MR. JOSEPH: All right. But wait a minute
6 now. In previous testimony, he was talking about
7 that they were using water at all phases and they
8 used water at all phases. That's what he said.
9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: That's not what he
10 testified.
11 MR. JOSEPH: He said his company uses water at
12 all times. They're required to use water by the
13 city, by the county, by the state. I'm asking him
14 how they use water when they're doing it. If he
15 estimates it, he's got to estimate that they've got
16 to get water permits. He's estimated -- they get
17 water permits. That has to be paid for the water.
18 Now I'm asking how they do water on the -- on four
19 floors.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to overrule
21 and let him answer. And I understand he drove by
22 twice, but if you know from your experience with
23 Speedway, you can answer the question.
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
549
1 BY THE WITNESS:
2 A Could you be more specific?
3 BY MR. JOSEPH:
4 Q Yes. When they're watering -- assuming on
5 the job there's a few guys working, they're just
6 doing hand wrecking, how do they use a water hose up
7 on the upper floors?
8 A This was a wood building, if I remember
9 correctly, and when they're taking up the hardwood
10 floor, they don't need to use a water hose.
11 Q So you're saying they did not use water?
12 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. This is the
13 problem with asking someone who doesn't -- hasn't
14 done the job. He doesn't recall.
15 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained.
16 BY MR. JOSEPH:
17 Q By hardwood building, what do you mean?
18 A I didn't say a hardwood building.
19 Hardwood floors.
20 Q Hardwood floors.
21 A I don't understand what the question is
22 now.
23 Q Now -- so you're saying that you don't
24 use -- don't use water when there's hardwood floors?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
550
1 A I know that if a guy has got a crowbar and
2 he's taking up the hardwood flooring which is on top
3 of the subflooring which is on top of the floor
4 joists, it doesn't create a lot of dust, and you're
5 inside the building, and you don't normally use
6 water at that time.
7 Q So then you don't use water at all times?
8 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. That's
9 argumentative.
10 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained.
11 BY MR. JOSEPH:
12 Q So how would they use a hose on the upper
13 floors of a building?
14 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Same objection. He's got the
15 foreman coming in in five minutes. This guy is not
16 involved in the demolition. It's way beyond any
17 reasonable foundation.
18 MR. JOSEPH: But he said that water is used.
19 It's required to get a permit. He is the
20 estimator. He factors these things. And that --
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'll sustain the
22 objection. Just because he knows that water is used
23 doesn't mean that he knows how it's used or how the
24 company uses it. I don't think there's been
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
551
1 sufficient foundation laid. Can you move on,
2 please?
3 MR. TREPANIER: I would like to raise an issue,
4 and that is that's --
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Trepanier, is
6 this pertaining to Mr. Joseph's testimony -- or
7 questioning of this witness?
8 MR. TREPANIER: Well, it has more to do with
9 Speedway's answers to our interrogatories that
10 they're now -- they're now -- the man is saying he
11 drove by twice whereas in interrogatories he said he
12 was one of two people in charge of this job.
13 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, how about
14 this? Let's finish with direct examination, and
15 then we can address that issue when Mr. Joseph and
16 Ms. Minnick and Mr. Wager are done with their direct
17 examinations.
18 BY MR. JOSEPH:
19 Q So how is it that you are in charge of
20 this job if you only drove by twice?
21 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. He didn't say he
22 was in charge of the job. There's no foundation.
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained.
24 MR. JOSEPH: In the interrogatories --
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
552
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Joseph, this is
2 the same issue Mr. Trepanier is raising, and you're
3 raising it because he just said it, I think. We're
4 going to address that issue when we're finished with
5 the direct examination.
6 BY MR. JOSEPH:
7 Q What is rubbish?
8 A What is rubbish?
9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection to the relevance of
10 this.
11 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained.
12 MR. JOSEPH: Now, wait a minute. He said that
13 they put rubbish in the shoot, and I'm just
14 wondering what he meant.
15 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Are we talking about the
16 shoot on a 15-story skyscraper that they put the
17 shoot? I don't understand the foundational
18 relevance of this question at all.
19 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Why is this relevant,
20 Mr. Joseph? If you can explain it to me, I'll let
21 you ask it.
22 BY MR. BLANKENSHIP:
23 Q All right. Was there any rubbish on that
24 job?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
553
1 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. I don't know what
2 rubbish means. I don't know what the relevance is.
3 He drove by twice and saw the property. If he's
4 asking if there was rubbish -- if he glanced at
5 rubbish on the two occasions he drove by, I suppose
6 it's a proper question, but if he's asking a general
7 question about rubbish on the job, it's totally
8 improper.
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained.
10 BY MR. JOSEPH:
11 Q So how long have you been an estimator for
12 this company?
13 A Over ten years.
14 Q Did you do something else before that with
15 this company, participate in a wrecking process?
16 A I have been with the company over ten
17 years. What do you mean?
18 Q Well, I mean, did you start out estimating
19 with this company?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Did you do hands-on demolition work before
22 that?
23 A With other companies, yes.
24 Q Okay.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
554
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Do you have any
2 further questions, Mr. Joseph?
3 MR. JOSEPH: No. I can't think of anything
4 right now.
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Ms. Minnick, any
6 questions?
7 MS. MINNICK: Yes, please.
8 DIRECT EXAMINATION
9 BY MS. MINNICK:
10 Q Hello, Mr. Mergener. Thank you for being
11 here.
12 My first question is the water from the --
13 the water that's used during the demolition for the
14 dusts, does that water go into the sewers, do you
15 know?
16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. No foundation.
17 MR. JEDDELOH: Plus that as to relevancy.
18 There's no allegation here that survives relating to
19 any form of pollution except the dust emanating from
20 the project.
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'll sustain that. I
22 can't see how that's relevant.
23 MS. MINNICK: Okay.
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
555
1 BY MS. MINNICK:
2 Q The two times that you drove by the
3 location, did you see any emissions of dust?
4 A I don't recall seeing clouds of dust
5 covering Halsted Street, no.
6 Q Okay. And could you possibly give us some
7 insight to the contamination of the wood or the
8 condition of the wood that was removed from the
9 building?
10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I object to the form of the
11 question. Lack of foundation.
12 MR. JEDDELOH: And relevancy. The wood is not
13 an issue in this case.
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained. Can you
15 rephrase that at all?
16 MS. MINNICK: Yes.
17 BY MS. MINNICK:
18 Q Is it within the realm of possibility that
19 the wood would have rust on it?
20 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection.
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. Sustained. I
22 don't know where you're trying to go here,
23 Ms. Minnick.
24 MS. MINNICK: I was just wondering why the wood
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
556
1 couldn't be recycled, why it was taken to a
2 landfill.
3 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection to the relevancy of
4 that.
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. Although I'm
6 all for recycling, I don't know that that's relevant
7 to this case.
8 BY MS. MINNICK:
9 Q Okay. I have one more question.
10 You say that water is the only way that
11 you have of controlling the dust. Has vacuuming
12 ever been used to control dust?
13 A On a demolition job?
14 Q Yes.
15 A Not that I know of.
16 MS. MINNICK: Okay. Thank you.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Thanks, Ms. Minnick.
18 Mr. Wager, do you have any questions for
19 Mr. Mergener?
20 DIRECT EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. WAGER:
22 Q Are there various health precautions that
23 the workers need to take when they participate in
24 these dusty activities or special equipment?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
557
1 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. Lack of foundation.
2 MR. JEDDELOH: Relevance.
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Maybe you can
4 rephrase that. I'll sustain the lack of foundation
5 objection.
6 BY MR. WAGER:
7 Q Is there special safety equipment that the
8 workers for these dusty situations are required to
9 wear, or does this affect your health insurance
10 rates?
11 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Compound question. Same
12 objection on foundation.
13 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Mr. Wager, you
14 have to ask one question at a time. You can't ask
15 two questions at the same time.
16 MR. WAGER: Okay.
17 BY MR. WAGER:
18 Q Is there special safety equipment for the
19 workers who participate?
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to allow
21 him to ask that question. I realize and I note your
22 objection for the record.
23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Okay.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: If you can answer
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
558
1 that question, please do.
2 BY THE WITNESS:
3 A We wear hardhats, safety glasses, gloves,
4 heavy leather boots.
5 BY MR. WAGER:
6 Q Nothing to protect the nose?
7 A If the -- on occasions, we've used dust
8 masks.
9 Q The occasions where you used the water to
10 control the dust, does -- does that water -- does it
11 go into the ground table, or does it go in the
12 Chicago water system?
13 MR. JEDDELOH: Objection. Asked and answered
14 and relevancy.
15 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'll sustain that.
16 We don't know that that's relevant to this case,
17 what happens to the water.
18 MR. WAGER: Well, we're dealing with the dust,
19 and if the dust was not properly cared for and went
20 into the water system, I would think that would be a
21 concern.
22 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I don't disagree that
23 it's a concern in some matters, but in this case,
24 we're dealing with a section 9A violation and a
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
559
1 section 21B violation of the Environmental
2 Protection Act, and I don't think that's relevant to
3 either one of those alleged violations, so I have to
4 sustain the objection.
5 Do you have any other questions, Mr. Wager?
6 MR. WAGER: No. I'll pass.
7 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Are there any
8 clarifying questions?
9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: No.
10 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Jeddeloh?
11 MR. JEDDELOH: No, sir.
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Sir, you can
13 step down. Thank you for your time.
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
15 MR. TREPANIER: Thank you.
16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Mr. Hernandez is outside.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Let's go off the
18 record.
19 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.)
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Let's go back on the
21 record.
22 We're waiting for the next witness who
23 is -- Mr. Blankenship, what is his name?
24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I believe it's Gregoreo
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
560
1 Hernandez.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. And while we
3 wait for that, Mr. Trepanier, you had something you
4 wanted to bring up?
5 MR. TREPANIER: Yes. Thank you.
6 What I wanted to bring up is that I served
7 a subpoena on the EPA. This was the person that the
8 EPA had identified as head of the asbestos section.
9 I've since then learned that from --
10 Dennis Brown informs me that the person that I had
11 named in the subpoena, which -- which was Ed
12 Bakowski, that apparently Ed Bakowski is the
13 supervisor of the person who Mr. Brown apparently
14 believes -- the more hands-on person the supervisor
15 of the unit, Dale Helfort.
16 What I asked of Mr. Bakowski is that he
17 come on in to the hearing and bring with him a
18 list -- I gave him a list of addresses, and I asked
19 him to bring all of the notifications of demolition
20 and renovation and asbestos removal for a list of
21 addresses I gave him, including 1261 South Halsted
22 and several other properties that either were
23 demolished by the university with an asbestos
24 removal notice or notices that further properties
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
561
1 filed by Speedway where they attached an asbestos
2 removal notice onto their notice, and what I
3 received back was a few items. One is the --
4 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, I'm going to interrupt, if
5 I could, for one minute.
6 I did not receive notice of that subpoena,
7 and if I had received notice of such a subpoena, I
8 would have moved to quash it, and so I'm going to
9 object to any effort to introduce into the record of
10 this proceeding references to documents that he may
11 have obtained outside of notice. I have never seen
12 these documents before. They're obviously not
13 relevant.
14 The only relevant document that I can
15 imagine is a copy of the notice relating to 1261,
16 and that's been provided by the university to
17 Mr. Trepanier and the other Complainants a long time
18 ago.
19 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Speaking for Speedway, I
20 don't know what these documents are, so I can't even
21 begin -- and I'm not sure they're being offered. I
22 don't know what we're really trying to accomplish
23 here.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. I'm not sure
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
562
1 yet either. Why don't we see what Mr. Trepanier
2 wants to do before we rule on those objections?
3 MR. BLANKENSHIP: But I would object to him
4 reciting what these documents are into the record at
5 this point because --
6 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, that was my point. He
7 can't accomplish that -- he can't accomplish that
8 way what he couldn't accomplish during --
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Understood.
10 Mr. Trepanier, is that what you're trying
11 to do, read the documents into the --
12 MR. TREPANIER: No, I wasn't. I can stop
13 describing them now.
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sure. What are you
15 trying to do?
16 MR. TREPANIER: Why I'm interested in doing --
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Are you seeking to
18 admit them?
19 MR. TREPANIER: Yes. I'm seeking that we would
20 submit these records as the response to the
21 subpoena, and that's what I want to do. I intend
22 to, in the future, rely on one or more of the
23 documents.
24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Is he moving to admit them?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
563
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Are you moving to
2 admit them?
3 MR. TREPANIER: At this moment?
4 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes.
5 MR. TREPANIER: No.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I guess not.
7 MR. TREPANIER: We're going to get to a point
8 where they're necessary and --
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right.
10 MR. TREPANIER: -- at that point, I don't want
11 to -- I just thought -- I mean, I'm willing to go
12 that route, but I just thought --
13 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: You were trying to --
14 MR. TREPANIER: -- for efficiency and
15 expediency --
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: -- determine what the
17 proper procedure is, I take it.
18 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Then I would suggest in the
19 interest of efficiency that if he provide us with
20 copies of the documents before you're going to
21 introduce them, then we can look at them and decide
22 if we have an objection or not, and then when you go
23 to introduce them, if an objection is appropriate,
24 we'll make it, and it will be ruled on.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
564
1 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, I would just like to say
2 that so far we have seen from the Petitioners -- or
3 the Complainants a hypertechnical application of the
4 rules relating to discovery. I never received any
5 notice of any subpoena here, nor have I received the
6 fruits of it, and in the meantime, Mr. Trepanier is
7 indicating his wish to enter these documents into
8 the record, which is just well beyond any form of
9 reason.
10 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Let's -- we've
11 had a little argument on this. I'm going to go off
12 the record since we're not going to reach a decision
13 here at this point.
14 Let's go off.
15 (Whereupon, a discussion was held off
16 the record.)
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: We're back on the
18 record.
19 MR. JEDDELOH: I would like to say that I not
20 only am asking for, I am insisting that I receive
21 not only copies of the records but a copy of the
22 subpoena.
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right. I'm not sure
24 and you're going to have to point out to me,
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
565
1 Mr. Jeddeloh, why you are -- so far as I could tell
2 under board rules, I don't know that you have to
3 be --
4 MR. JEDDELOH: It's the rules of practice. The
5 Supreme Court Rules require notice.
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, I understand,
7 but we generally go with the board rules, and I
8 don't think you have to be served with a subpoena of
9 Mr. Trepanier's witness. And I could be wrong, and
10 I'm willing to have you point that out to me if you
11 can.
12 MR. JEDDELOH: All I'm told is that there was a
13 subpoena issued.
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right, and the
15 subpoena has already been quashed. I have granted
16 the EPA's motion to quash that subpoena earlier
17 today.
18 MR. JEDDELOH: It is fundamental prevailing
19 practice that notice is provided of trial
20 subpoenas. And I have been involved in situations
21 where I have been chastised for not notifying
22 opposing counsel before the subpoena issues of my
23 intent to issue a subpoena, and so therefore, I
24 think it is fundamental that I should receive notice
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
566
1 of any subpoenas that are issued by any party.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. That is
3 understood. You show me a provision to that effect
4 in the board rules or the Supreme Court Rules, if
5 you want, and I'll entertain that.
6 MR. JEDDELOH: I don't have the Supreme Court
7 Rules with me.
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Understood. You show
9 them to me, and that I'll entertain it. Either way,
10 the subpoena been quashed. I think it's a moot
11 point.
12 MR. JEDDELOH: It is, but I would like to see a
13 copy of it because I think I'm entitled to know what
14 efforts Mr. Trepanier is making, and I'm entitled to
15 see the fruits of that effort in the form of the
16 documents that he's now received.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right. He did not
18 receive the documents as a result of that subpoena,
19 however.
20 MR. JEDDELOH: How did he receive the
21 documents?
22 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I think the documents
23 were given to Mr. Trepanier, so far as I know, is --
24 instead of having the person come with the
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
567
1 documents, they were given as more of a courtesy.
2 At least that's the understanding I had from the
3 university -- from the Illinois Environmental
4 Protection Agency attorney who was handling this.
5 MR. TREPANIER: Maybe you would like to pass
6 that over so the others could take a look at it.
7 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I guess I have a separate
8 problem then as to why those weren't produced to us
9 in response to our document request if they were
10 documents Mr. Trepanier had in his possession.
11 MR. TREPANIER: I was handed them in the
12 hearing room this morning.
13 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Okay. That's fine.
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'll tell you what I
15 know on the record, too. This came -- I got this
16 memo today from someone in our office saying that
17 these records were sent to the Maywood office of the
18 IEPA. I haven't really been fully apprised entirely
19 of what's going on either, but I don't think these
20 records were made available to anybody until today,
21 so...
22 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Well, again, I would suggest
23 that he give us the records and we look at them, and
24 then if there's a problem, we can address that.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
568
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I think that's a good
2 idea, and if there's any objections, I'll entertain
3 them at that point in time.
4 Are we still needing to be on the record?
5 MR. TREPANIER: I don't think so. I've got
6 more I want to talk about on this, but I don't know
7 that we need to be on the record.
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Let's go off the
9 record.
10 (Whereupon, a discussion was held off
11 the record.)
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Can we go on the
13 record?
14 Would you please swear the witness?
15 (The witness was duly sworn.)
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Blankenship, did
17 you have --
18 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Would you state your name and
19 spell your name for the record?
20 THE WITNESS: My name is Gregoreo Hernandez.
21 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Do you have an objection to
22 being videotaped today?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Okay. I would request the
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
569
1 videotape camera be turned off.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Mr. Joseph,
3 can you turn --
4 MR. JOSEPH: Can I ask him why?
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: We've heard why time
6 and time again from the two Respondents. I imagine
7 the attorneys would answer and that the results
8 would be the same.
9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yes.
10 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: The videotape is
11 off?
12 MR. JOSEPH: Yes, sir.
13 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Trepanier?
14 Excuse me. Can I help you, sir?
15 MR. SANIAT: Yes. I'm going to sit down. I
16 apologize.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Can you state
18 your name for the record again? I know you were
19 here yesterday, too.
20 MR. SANIAT: Thomas Saniat, S-a-n-i-a-t.
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Trepanier, are
22 you going to start with the examination?
23 MR. TREPANIER: Yes.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Mr. Trepanier,
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
570
1 it's your witness.
2 GREGOREO HERNANDEZ,
3 called as an adverse witness herein, having been
4 first duly sworn, was examined upon oral
5 interrogatories, and testified as follows:
6 DIRECT EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. TREPANIER:
8 Q Good afternoon, Greg. Thanks for coming
9 in.
10 I understand that you work for Speedway
11 Wrecking. What's your position at Speedway?
12 A Foreman.
13 Q And what's your job as foreman?
14 A Just do the job, you know, watch the
15 people.
16 Q Okay. And is there anything else you're
17 watching out for besides the people?
18 A Everything, the job, do the job. Do the
19 job, the whole job. I'm the foreman. I do the
20 job. They're independent now. I take care of the
21 people.
22 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I wonder if we should move
23 the witness to make it easier.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Off the record.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
571
1 (Whereupon, a discussion was held off
2 the record.)
3 BY MR. TREPANIER:
4 Q What's the first part of tearing down the
5 building, the first step?
6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. This is very
7 vague and general. Are we talking about the
8 specific property here?
9 MR. TREPANIER: Oh, okay. My mistake.
10 BY MR. TREPANIER:
11 Q Were you involved with the demolition at
12 1261 South Halsted?
13 A Yes, I do.
14 Q And were you foreman on that job?
15 A Yeah.
16 Q Okay. How long have you been foreman with
17 Speedway?
18 A I'm don't know exactly, but eight years
19 now. It's about eight years.
20 Q About eight years. Okay.
21 Did you work at another demolition company
22 before Speedway?
23 A No.
24 Q And how long -- and of the eight years,
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
572
1 how long have you been in the foreman position?
2 A About five, four or five, something.
3 Q Most of the time you have been the foreman
4 when you were at Speedway?
5 A No. Start as a laborer.
6 Q You started as a laborer.
7 And then about three years as a laborer?
8 A Some.
9 Q When you went from -- when you moved --
10 when you were promoted to foreman, did that involve
11 some schooling?
12 A No.
13 Q Did they send you out for a course like
14 over to the -- for a program?
15 A No.
16 Q Who trained you to be foreman?
17 A In the job, you know, other -- the other
18 foremans like train you. My boss, Larry, they train
19 me how to do the job.
20 Q I bet you're doing that job well now with
21 your experience.
22 A Right.
23 Q What do -- when you went to your training,
24 what did they tell you was the -- let me stop. I
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
573
1 think I was going to ask for a huge answer. I'll
2 ask smaller questions.
3 Now, what's the first -- what's the first
4 part of -- what was the first step when you were
5 demolishing 1261 South Halsted?
6 A I don't understand your question.
7 Q Like first step, like what did you do
8 initially, like the first part of the job?
9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I guess I'll object to the
10 vagueness. Are you talking about a phase or the
11 very first act he did when he stepped on the
12 property?
13 MR. TREPANIER: I can make the question more
14 specific.
15 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Okay.
16 BY MR. TREPANIER:
17 Q Did you start that demolition on
18 September 4th, '96?
19 A I don't remember what day.
20 Q Okay.
21 A I know we do the job. I don't know what
22 day.
23 Q Does your brother also work with Speedway
24 Wrecking?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
574
1 A Yes.
2 Q And did he work with you on the first day
3 on the job?
4 A I don't remember. I think he was in
5 another job, and then he come, but I'm not sure.
6 Q Well, on that first day, what was that
7 day's activity?
8 A It has to be, you know, just go and see
9 how is the building, check, just look, how is the
10 building. That's it.
11 Q And what were you looking for?
12 A Nothing. You have to recognize the
13 building first.
14 Q Then on the next day you had a team out
15 with you, didn't you? On the second day, did you
16 have the workers also?
17 A Yeah, I guess, yeah. I don't know. I
18 don't know. We started hiring the people.
19 Q So on that next day, the job was still
20 kind of coming together, the crew?
21 A Right.
22 Q And did the demolition begin on that
23 second day?
24 A Yeah, I think so, yeah.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
575
1 Q And what did they -- what was started
2 with? What was the first -- what did they do on
3 that day once the crew got on?
4 A Start on the roof. Start on the roof, put
5 the tools together, whatever we need.
6 Q Okay. So you got all your tools up there
7 with you on that first day?
8 A Tools, whatever we need.
9 Q And what tools were you using there on
10 that day?
11 A Large hammer, wrecking bar.
12 Q Okay. And this is something that's
13 important to me. I wonder if you can remember any
14 other tools that you were using on that first day,
15 the first day of the work.
16 A I can't remember. I know we had -- use
17 hand tools, large hammer, wrecking bar, and stuff.
18 Q Okay. And I'm referring to some records
19 that I have received.
20 Now, your crew stayed the same over -- at
21 least the first few days of the job, did you have
22 the same crew day after day?
23 A Yeah. I think so, yeah.
24 Q Now, would these people select their own
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
576
1 jobs, or did you assign the jobs to the individuals?
2 A I assigned the jobs, what they're going to
3 do.
4 Q And would you tell me to which job you
5 assigned your brother?
6 A He did too many things. You know, one day
7 we do this. It's different, different.
8 MR. TREPANIER: I think at this time I would
9 like to show -- I would like to show the witness a
10 video and then ask him a few questions. I've got a
11 video that we made one day. It was the 9th of
12 September of the -- from one side of the building at
13 1261 Halsted, and we see some activities, and I'd
14 like you to watch the video, and then I'll ask you a
15 few questions so I can learn about what was going
16 on.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Any objection?
18 MR. BLANKENSHIP: No objection to him showing
19 the video.
20 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, I assume we're talking
21 about the admitted portions of the video, right?
22 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right, the admitted
23 portions with the sound turned off, correct.
24 MR. TREPANIER: That is correct.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
577
1 Is that correct, Mr. Joseph? Is that
2 what's queued up?
3 MR. JOSEPH: It should be.
4 MR. TREPANIER: Would you check to make sure
5 the sound is down?
6 MR. JOSEPH: Yes. The sound has been down.
7 MR. TREPANIER: If you have difficulty seeing
8 that, let me know so we can bring it so you can see
9 it clearly.
10 THE WITNESS: All right.
11 (Whereupon, a videotape was presented
12 to the attendees of the hearing and
13 no proceedings were had during
14 presentation.)
15 MR. TREPANIER: What we're viewing here is a
16 time lapse. It's one second every minute.
17 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I would suggest if there's
18 questions on specific scenes as we go that you ask
19 him now rather than wait until the end to ask them
20 if you have specific questions.
21 MR. TREPANIER: I've was planning to stop the
22 video at a point and ask him questions.
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: That would be good.
24 Just pause it when you're ready to ask him a
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
578
1 question about something.
2 (Whereupon, a videotape was presented
3 to the attendees of the hearing and
4 no proceedings were had during
5 presentation.)
6 MR. TREPANIER: Why don't you pause it there,
7 Lorenz?
8 BY MR. TREPANIER:
9 Q Now, on that video, I saw two people, and
10 I'm going to ask you what those two people were
11 doing.
12 A They doing wrecking the little house -- on
13 top of the roof, it was like a stairway or
14 something. They was wrecking that one.
15 Q And --
16 MR. TREPANIER: Okay. Let's go forward then.
17 (Whereupon, a videotape was presented
18 to the attendees of the hearing and
19 no proceedings were had during
20 presentation.)
21 BY MR. TREPANIER:
22 Q Now, do you know the person -- I know it's
23 very difficult to see over on the right side of the
24 building somebody standing up there. It seems like
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
579
1 a lot to ask if you could identify them.
2 A No.
3 Q Okay. And the person that comes up with
4 the wheelbarrow, do you know who that is?
5 A Nope.
6 Q What are they doing?
7 A They are -- whatever material that we make
8 from the place that we're wrecking, the wheelbarrow --
9 the man with the wheelbarrow is bringing it down.
10 Q Is he transporting the material that the
11 fellow on the right-hand side is -- he's using a
12 sledgehammer there, isn't he, on the right hand?
13 A Uh-huh.
14 Q The fellow with the wheelbarrow, he is
15 carrying the debris from that -- from what the guy
16 is wrecking there?
17 A Right, right.
18 MR. WAGER: It must be hard to really view it
19 from there.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Do you need to be
21 closer, sir?
22 THE WITNESS: No. I can see whatever, but it's
23 impossible. I cannot recognize the guy.
24 MR. TREPANIER: Now, thank you for pausing
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
580
1 that.
2 BY MR. TREPANIER:
3 Q Now, that material, he stopped it right in
4 midstream there. Is that the material that was that
5 stairwell cover?
6 A Right. That's the material for that,
7 yeah.
8 MR. TREPANIER: You can go ahead.
9 (Whereupon, a videotape was presented
10 to the attendees of the hearing and
11 no proceedings were had during
12 presentation.)
13 BY MR. TREPANIER:
14 Q I have another question.
15 The fellow who's using the sledgehammer,
16 is he working with somebody also? Is there more
17 than one person?
18 A Yeah, those two guys. Just those two guys
19 working together, yeah. One direct. The other one
20 get the debris off. And I got somebody watching in
21 the alley so nobody pass and one with water, water
22 hose.
23 Q Okay. And where is the person with the
24 water hose?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
581
1 A That should be in the bottom. You can't
2 see it. You see the fence down there. There was a
3 big fence.
4 Q Okay.
5 A So I have a guy in the corner in the alley
6 and one with the water on there.
7 Q So the fellow with the -- there's somebody
8 down in the alley, you're saying, with the hose?
9 A Yes, yes, so nobody come because people
10 walk through. So we have to be one guy in the
11 bottom with water to put the dust down.
12 Q Okay. We don't see the water here,
13 though, do we?
14 A No. You cannot see from here because
15 you're shooting on top. You shoot on the bottom
16 with the fence -- there's a big fence that you --
17 the building, there's an alley, and the fence.
18 You're shooting just the top. You're shooting the
19 bottom.
20 Q Okay. The fellow dumping his wheelbarrow
21 load, he can see the guy down there with the hose?
22 A Yes, yes. That guy there with the
23 wheelbarrow, we keep him seeing -- if somebody pass,
24 we stop the guy. Somebody stop him, don't dump.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
582
1 Q Now, is there -- those two guys working
2 together up on the roof, is there anybody else up
3 there with them?
4 A Has to be -- a couple more in front, in
5 front of the building.
6 Q Okay. What would they -- what are they
7 doing up in the front?
8 A Get the roof, take the roof off.
9 Q Take the roof off?
10 A We start wrecking the building.
11 MR. TREPANIER: Okay. You could proceed now.
12 (Whereupon, a videotape was presented
13 to the attendees of the hearing and
14 no proceedings were had during
15 presentation.)
16 BY MR. TREPANIER:
17 Q The fellow in the alley, he's -- besides
18 doing that hose, he's watching for people coming by?
19 A Yes.
20 (Whereupon, a videotape was presented
21 to the attendees of the hearing and
22 no proceedings were had during
23 presentation.)
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
583
1 BY MR. TREPANIER:
2 Q Now, when we saw him dump that wheelbarrow
3 load, a lot of the dust -- a lot of material went
4 off in the wind there, didn't it?
5 A Uh-huh.
6 Q And the hose didn't reach that material?
7 A We have in bottom. The hose is in the
8 bottom, okay, so we shoot the water as far as we
9 can. That's all we can do.
10 Q Okay. Could you get that hose up to the
11 roof?
12 A Yes. On the front, we put some hoses, wet
13 the material first before we dump it. We have one
14 hose in the bottom, too.
15 Q What are they doing with that material?
16 That's the roof -- those guys taking off the roof.
17 A Some of it we dump it just to the next
18 level. We wreck the roof, we just dump it to the
19 next level.
20 Q What happened -- when they dumped that
21 wheelbarrow and that material came out into the
22 wind, why would that happen?
23 MR. JEDDELOH: I object to form and its vague
24 nature.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
584
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained. Can you
2 rephrase that, Mr. Trepanier?
3 MR. TREPANIER: Yes.
4 Why don't you hold that video for a
5 moment?
6 BY MR. TREPANIER:
7 Q You explained earlier, I believe, that you
8 said that there was a hose in front and there was a
9 hose in the alley. Now --
10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: On top.
11 BY MR. TREPANIER:
12 Q You said the hose was in the front on top?
13 A Right. We put water. First we put water
14 on top, put water -- put water, wet all the
15 material.
16 Q Who did that?
17 A Huh?
18 Q Who did that?
19 A One of the guys has to do it. I don't
20 remember who did it. But that's how I require.
21 Every time I do the job is how I tell the guys to do
22 it.
23 Q And who installed the hose?
24 A A laborer, whatever I -- that's in my
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
585
1 hand, you know, whoever I see first.
2 MR. TREPANIER: Could you run the video a
3 little further?
4 (Whereupon, a videotape was presented
5 to the attendees of the hearing and
6 no proceedings were had during
7 presentation.)
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Trepanier, do we
9 want the video stopped here?
10 MR. TREPANIER: Would you continue the video at
11 this time?
12 (Whereupon, a videotape was presented
13 to the attendees of the hearing and
14 no proceedings were had during
15 presentation.)
16 BY MR. TREPANIER:
17 Q This is showing this September 9th now, it
18 looks like around 1:15 p m. Where would you be at
19 this time? You were on site?
20 A I don't know. I cannot -- I don't
21 remember where exactly. I know I was somewhere in
22 there. I don't remember where I was at.
23 Q What would you have been doing there in
24 that early afternoon time, if you can recall?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
586
1 A Keep the building down, keep coming with
2 the building. That's all I can say.
3 MR. TREPANIER: With the hearing officer's
4 permission, I would encourage the other Complainants
5 if they have a question, while this video is playing
6 for efficiency, to ask their questions also.
7 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. I'll allow
8 that.
9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I would not object to that.
10 MR. JEDDELOH: But if it's only related to the
11 video, of course.
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right.
13 DIRECT EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. JOSEPH:
15 Q I have a question.
16 If you watered it, how come it's blowing
17 away from the building?
18 A We tried -- we put water on top and the
19 bottom. There's no way that we can stop. You know,
20 you're not going to stop 100 percent dust. You put
21 water --
22 MR. TREPANIER: Can you cut that off? Thank
23 you.
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
587
1 BY THE WITNESS:
2 A You put water. That's all you can do.
3 BY MR. TREPANIER:
4 Q Okay. So you --
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Let's resume with
6 Mr. Trepanier's direct testimony then.
7 CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. TREPANIER:
9 Q I appreciate your taking time to be here
10 today and helping me understand more what was
11 occurring in that video.
12 So you took what measures that you knew
13 how to control the dust on this job?
14 A Do my best. That's all.
15 Q And did your -- did Speedway -- say,
16 Mr. Kolko or somebody else at Speedway give you
17 instructions --
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Excuse me, Mr. Trepanier.
19 You guys, if you want to continue your
20 conversation, you'd be more than welcome to do so,
21 but please do it outside. I'm having trouble
22 hearing Mr. Trepanier.
23 MR. TREPANIER: Thank you.
24 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Resume.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
588
1 MR. TREPANIER: Thank you.
2 BY MR. TREPANIER:
3 Q Did you get instructions about -- to have
4 somebody with a hose in the alley and to put water
5 on the roof?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And who gave you that instruction?
8 A Mr. Kolko told me in every job we do, we
9 have the water. Wrecking job requires water.
10 Q And do you know, where did the water come
11 from?
12 A Hydrant.
13 Q And --
14 A Closest one.
15 Q And where was the location of that
16 hydrant?
17 A It was on the east side of Halsted, yes.
18 Q And did you make the connection there
19 with -- for the hose? Did you hook up the hose?
20 A Sometimes I do. Sometimes one of the
21 laborers.
22 Q So at 1261 Halsted, did you hook up the
23 hose?
24 A Sure, yeah.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
589
1 Q And was that hydrant north or south of the
2 building?
3 A South, I think. I'm not sure.
4 Q And did you have -- now, during the
5 morning activities when we saw in the video somebody
6 hand wrecking and the other fellow operating the
7 wheelbarrow, how many -- did you say two other
8 persons were on the roof?
9 A Yes. I'm not recalling where exactly, but
10 the two guys I saw, one was wrecking the stairway at
11 the top. Other one dumping the material.
12 Q Right.
13 A The other ones have to do something up
14 front.
15 Q Okay.
16 A Tearing the roof off.
17 Q Tearing the roof off.
18 And did they work at tearing the roof off
19 all day?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And why do they tear the roof off?
22 A We have to wreck the roof first before we
23 start the wall.
24 Q So there was -- the structure that was
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
590
1 being hand wrecked you say was the top of a
2 stairwell. Did that stairwell go through the
3 building? Did that go down to the ground floor?
4 A Yeah, the stairway.
5 Q Have you ever used a stairway for -- as a
6 shoot to dump the debris down there?
7 A No.
8 Q And did Larry Kolko ever talk to you about
9 the possibility of using a stairwell as a debris
10 shoot?
11 A No.
12 Q And did Mr. Kolko or somebody at Speedway
13 ever talk with you about the possibility of
14 installing a shoot on the outside of a building to
15 carry the debris down?
16 A In a big building that's 10, 20-story
17 building, big ones. Little ones, no.
18 Q Are you familiar with using a shoot on the
19 outside of a building?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And how about using a shoot on the inside
22 of a building?
23 A No.
24 Q An elevator shaft, have you ever used an
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
591
1 elevator shaft before?
2 A We're using one right here at this job.
3 Q Right now you're demolishing a building
4 using the elevator shaft to dump the debris?
5 A Uh-huh.
6 Q And how tall is that building?
7 A Sixteen stories.
8 Q It's how tall?
9 A Sixteen.
10 Q Six, zero?
11 A Sixteen, one, six.
12 Q Sixteen. Thank you.
13 Did the workers on this job at 1261 Halsted
14 have any breathing -- any protection for their nose?
15 A We use them sometimes, yep.
16 Q And they did use those at 1261 Halsted?
17 A Dust mask we use.
18 Q And why do they use those dust masks?
19 A To protect us from the dust.
20 Q Was there a bobcat used in the demolition
21 at 1261?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And how was that bobcat used?
24 A To wreck the -- to wreck some of the
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
592
1 floors.
2 Q What does that mean? How do they use a
3 bobcat to wreck the floors?
4 A We use it to wreck the walls, the roof,
5 whatever we can reach.
6 Q And was there a bobcat on the upper floors
7 of the building?
8 A Not on the roof.
9 Q How about on the --
10 A It was in the -- in the second -- in the
11 second floor was clay tile, hard floor. The other
12 ones were wood. It cannot handle that, bobcat.
13 Q So you say the bobcat never got above the
14 second floor?
15 A I'm not sure what floor we used it, but,
16 you know, second or third.
17 Q So the bobcat may have been used on the
18 third floor?
19 A Might have.
20 Q And who was the bobcat operator?
21 A The one that we use, about two, three--
22 two guys different, two different guys.
23 Q And who are they?
24 A One is my brother.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
593
1 Q Do you recall who the other bobcat
2 operator was?
3 A I think Ortiz -- I think Ortiz.
4 Q Was there two -- were there two brothers
5 named Ortiz on the job working for Speedway?
6 A I don't remember. I think so, yeah.
7 Q Did you say you thought so?
8 A Yeah.
9 Q And which Ortiz was the bobcat operator?
10 A I think Artemio Ortiz.
11 Q And the other Ortiz is Gustano?
12 A Right.
13 Q Are they also brothers?
14 A Cousin.
15 Q Cousin.
16 How was the -- the hose that was down
17 there in the alley, at the end of every day, what
18 would you do with that hose?
19 A Sometimes for safety we leave it on top,
20 you know, on the building. Now I take them with
21 me.
22 Q And how long were the hoses?
23 A Well, every link is about 50, 100 feet,
24 but depend how many we use.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
594
1 Q And how much water comes out of that hose
2 when you've got it turned on?
3 A It's an inch-and-a-half hose.
4 Q And if you had -- if you had sprayed --
5 say you sprayed with the hose and you want to stop
6 spraying, how would you do that?
7 A Nozzle. We have a nozzle that close.
8 Q Okay.
9 A When you need water, just open it. It
10 shoot water.
11 Q Okay. So is that what occurred in the
12 morning after -- say, after you wet it down up on
13 top, did they turn the hose off?
14 A We go on the bottom.
15 Q Oh. Then the hose went to the bottom?
16 A Right.
17 Q Down to the alley?
18 A Right.
19 Q And then did you bring that hose back from
20 the alley back up to the roof at the end of the day?
21 A We wet it first. Then the hose stay in
22 the alley wetting the material that come down.
23 Q And then at the end of the day, you either
24 brought the hose home with you or put it on the
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
595
1 roof?
2 A Right, right.
3 Q And then on the next day, would you go
4 through that same operation again?
5 A Same thing. Every day the same thing.
6 Q So the first thing you would -- well, you
7 would have somebody else hook up that hose?
8 A Get my hose, put it on the hydrant, and
9 start work.
10 Q And then you would wet down up on top
11 again?
12 A Uh-huh.
13 Q And then you take the hose down to the
14 alley?
15 A Right, right.
16 Q Did anybody ask you to -- I mean, I'm
17 speaking in particular about Mr. Kolko or at
18 Speedway. Did anybody ask you to watch the dust?
19 A I don't understand.
20 Q Keep an eye out for the dust.
21 A Yes, yes. That's my job to do, keep the
22 dust down.
23 Q Okay. And what instructions did you get
24 about that, about the dust?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
596
1 A Put water. That's all we can do, put
2 water.
3 Q So was that -- was having the hose down in
4 the alley the most effective place to use the hose?
5 A Yes. When we start dumping, yes.
6 Q Would you water -- did you water the debris
7 that hit the ground?
8 A Uh-huh.
9 Q And then that would --
10 A When it coming, you just put water.
11 Whatever has come down, you put water. That's all
12 we can do.
13 Q Now, was the hose used at other places --
14 other than up on the roof in the morning and then
15 down in the alley -- I guess I want to talk about
16 more what time I'm going to ask you about, so I'm
17 going to talk more about the time of the entire
18 demolition.
19 So over the whole demolition, was there
20 other places that you used the hose than -- places
21 other than up on the roof and what you described
22 down in the alley?
23 A Yes.
24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Let me object because the
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
597
1 roof changes places as the demolition -- I mean, the
2 roof disappears, so I'm not sure I understand the
3 question of what you're really trying to get at
4 here.
5 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained, but I
6 think you can just restate this --
7 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yes.
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: -- and be able to ask
9 your question.
10 MR. TREPANIER: Okay.
11 BY MR. TREPANIER:
12 Q Other than the two locations that you
13 already described where you used those, is there any
14 other places?
15 A Yeah. As soon as we finish the roof, we
16 come to the next level, put water, do the same thing
17 we did on the roof, come down.
18 Q Now, I know you were spraying -- you had
19 sprayed water in the alley because they were putting
20 that material over that way.
21 A Right.
22 Q Now, were they ever putting material over
23 the other side? I've got a little diagram maybe I
24 could show you so I wouldn't have to describe it as
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
598
1 much. You tell me if this is helpful to you.
2 This square is the building that we were
3 just watching. The video camera is shown by that X,
4 so that was how it was shown, and this is Halsted
5 Street, and then this is 13th Street.
6 Now, was demolition debris ever put off
7 the building onto 13th Street?
8 A No.
9 Q No.
10 A Not right here.
11 Q Just right there.
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I want the record to
13 reflect that the witness has pointed to what has
14 previously been determined as the east side of the
15 building.
16 THE WITNESS: Right, the east side of the
17 building.
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right.
19 BY MR. TREPANIER:
20 Q When they were putting the debris down
21 there on what we're calling the east side of the
22 building, did they -- every day did they bring the
23 hose down there and cover that?
24 A Yes, yes.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
599
1 Q Was there any other uses for the hose? I
2 know now you said that you did the roof, but then as
3 the building came down, wherever the top was, you
4 would wet and then take the hose up, get the debris
5 that they were dumping. Was the hose used in any
6 other way?
7 A No, just water. When you wreck the
8 building -- when you start, you know, demo, you put
9 water on there, and when you start dumping to the
10 alley, you bring the hose, put water onto the alley
11 when you dump.
12 Q And if you -- you weren't dumping debris
13 over here on 13th, but I'm just wanting to make sure
14 that I understand that was -- did you come over here
15 and use the hose over here anyway on 13th Street
16 during that job?
17 A When we done dumping material, we not use
18 water in there.
19 Q You just shut the hose down?
20 A We just shot the nozzle. When we start
21 dumping, then we put water. We start dumping, then
22 we put water.
23 Q Do you know -- just a few more questions
24 to things that I haven't been able to learn yet.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
600
1 Maybe you can help, if you would.
2 Who operated the front loader, do you
3 know, the real big piece of equipment? Maybe I need
4 to -- I should ask another question first.
5 Was there a front loader used on the job?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Okay. Do you know who operated that?
8 A Pete.
9 Q Do you have a second name for him?
10 A No. That's the name I know for him, Pete.
11 Q How often was -- how often was Pete on the
12 job?
13 A I think he was in the end of the -- almost
14 on the end of the job was when we started bringing
15 the -- when we had enough material for the truck,
16 then he started. I don't know how long.
17 Q So Pete was loading the trucks with debris?
18 A Yes.
19 MR. TREPANIER: I'm just going to take a minute
20 and look over my notes here and see if I've asked
21 what I need to find.
22 (Brief pause.)
23 BY MR. TREPANIER:
24 Q Was there hardwood floors in this
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
601
1 building?
2 A Hardwood? What do you mean?
3 Q Hardwood floors.
4 A Wood?
5 Q Yes, wood.
6 A Wood, yeah.
7 Q And how were those -- how were the wooden
8 floors demolished?
9 A I don't understand your question.
10 Q How -- I'm probably not asking it well,
11 but on the wood floors, was that -- was it the third
12 and the fourth floors that were the wood floors?
13 A Actually, the whole floor was wood on
14 top. I think the third and second floor was clay
15 tile, clay tile, and wood on top. The other ones I
16 think at the top, they were just wood.
17 Q Just wood.
18 A No clay tile.
19 Q Okay. So how would the wood floor, the
20 one up on top, how was that broken? When you want
21 to demolish that, how do you do that?
22 A Sledgehammer, bar, pop the floor.
23 Q Pop the floor up.
24 And then how about the tile floors, how
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
602
1 were those -- how were those demolished?
2 A Same thing, just use wrecking bar, pop it.
3 Q Would the bobcat be used to break the
4 floors?
5 A Some, yeah. You can use the bobcat. If
6 you have bobcat, you use it.
7 Q For -- the bobcat had a lot of uses?
8 A Sure. You could wreck whatever you want
9 with bobcat, floors, walls.
10 Q And that occurred on this job?
11 A Yeah. I think we break some of the --
12 whenever we use the bobcat, we break some with the
13 bobcat.
14 MR. TREPANIER: Thank you. Thank you very
15 much.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Is that all your
17 questions, Mr. Trepanier?
18 MR. TREPANIER: Yes.
19 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Joseph, do you
20 have any questions for this witness?
21 MR. JOSEPH: Yes, I do.
22 CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. JOSEPH:
24 Q Mr. Hernandez, why did you not want me to
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
603
1 videotape you here today?
2 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. Relevance.
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. I'll sustain
4 that, and the attorneys for Speedway -- well, the
5 attorney for Speedway has already stated on the
6 record why he doesn't want videotaping done on
7 behalf of his witnesses.
8 MR. JOSEPH: Well, isn't that the witness'
9 choice? I'm just wondering why he -- I mean --
10 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm --
11 MR. JOSEPH: He already talked about it.
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I've already
13 sustained the objection.
14 MR. JOSEPH: Okay.
15 BY MR. JOSEPH:
16 Q Did you mind me videotaping you on the
17 site here?
18 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. Relevance.
19 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sustained. I can't
20 see why that's relevant, Mr. Joseph.
21 MR. JOSEPH: Okay.
22 BY MR. JOSEPH:
23 Q Were there any other materials besides
24 bricks that you were recycling on this job?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
604
1 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. Relevance.
2 BY MR. JOSEPH:
3 Q Reusing.
4 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Overruled.
5 What was -- what was your question again?
6 BY MR. JOSEPH:
7 Q Were there any other materials besides
8 bricks that are being reused or recycled on this
9 job?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Which ones?
12 A Iron.
13 Q Iron?
14 A Pipe, whatever pipe. We separate the
15 pipe.
16 Q So all the metals?
17 A Sure.
18 Q Anything else?
19 A I think that's it.
20 Q Okay. Did you ever run into asbestos?
21 MR. JEDDELOH: I'm going to object. If the
22 question is if he ran into asbestos --
23 MR. JOSEPH: On this job.
24 MR. JEDDELOH: -- on this property, then I
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
605
1 would want the foundation laid for this individual's
2 ability in all instances to recognize asbestos.
3 It's not established he would be able to recognize
4 it if he saw it.
5 BY MR. JOSEPH:
6 A Do you know what asbestos is?
7 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'll sustain your
8 objection.
9 BY THE WITNESS:
10 A Yes. I know what asbestos is.
11 BY MR. JOSEPH:
12 Q Did you see any on this job?
13 A No.
14 Q What do you do when you run into it?
15 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, if he didn't see any, it's
16 not relevant.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to overrule
18 it. You can answer the question.
19 BY THE WITNESS:
20 A When I find some asbestos, I call the
21 office. Mr. Kolko send somebody to pick it up, you
22 know, licensed people.
23 BY MR. JOSEPH:
24 Q Okay. How long does that take usually?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
606
1 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection. Relevance.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. That one I'll
3 sustain. Mr. Joseph, you understand there was no --
4 he's testified that there was no asbestos he saw on
5 the site, so what he does is getting kind of far
6 afield.
7 MR. JOSEPH: Okay.
8 BY MR. JOSEPH:
9 Q What would happen if -- or do you remember
10 which side of 13th Street that -- the street -- do
11 you know where 13th Street is?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Do you remember where the fire hydrant was
14 in relation to 13th Street?
15 MR. JEDDELOH: Objection. That question was
16 asked directly, and he said he didn't know.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I can't recall
18 whether that question was asked. Can you answer
19 that again, sir?
20 BY THE WITNESS:
21 A Yeah. I'm not sure what I told. I'm not
22 sure, but I think it's on the east side.
23 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. My apologies,
24 Mr. Jeddeloh. I'm just not always entirely sure
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
607
1 whether it's been asked.
2 MR. JEDDELOH: I understand.
3 BY MR. JOSEPH:
4 Q So if the hose had to cross the street,
5 would you have to block the street off, too?
6 MR. JEDDELOH: Objection. He doesn't remember
7 where the hose was. Therefore, that question
8 assumes facts not in evidence.
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to overrule
10 that. You can answer that question. Do you
11 understand the question, sir?
12 BY THE WITNESS:
13 A Can you say it again, please?
14 BY MR. JOSEPH:
15 Q If the hose had to cross the street, would
16 you have to block the street off, too?
17 A No.
18 Q Why not?
19 A Because we use heavy duty hoses. The
20 trucks can pass on top the hose, no problem.
21 Q Do you think that you had a hose crossing
22 the street here?
23 MR. JEDDELOH: Objection. That's another form
24 of the same question.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
608
1 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'll sustain that
2 one.
3 MR. JOSEPH: Okay. All right.
4 BY MR. JOSEPH:
5 Q So did you see any lead paint in this
6 building?
7 MR. JEDDELOH: Objection. Foundation.
8 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Same objection here.
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'll overrule that.
10 You can answer that question.
11 BY THE WITNESS:
12 A No. I don't know.
13 BY MR. JOSEPH:
14 Q Do you know what lead paint is?
15 A No.
16 Q You don't know what it is?
17 A No.
18 Q Okay. Do you know what was in the cloud
19 of material that was in the video that was leaving
20 the building, what kind of materials?
21 A The one we dump it?
22 Q Yes.
23 A Brick.
24 Q Bricks?
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
609
1 A Bricks, yeah.
2 Q What was -- the bricks -- what was the
3 wind -- if you dump the brick, would not a brick go
4 straight down?
5 A Yeah, brick straight down. The tars, you
6 know, the cement, whatever they put on the brick,
7 that's what the wind blow.
8 Q Okay. And what else could have been in
9 there?
10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Objection to what could have
11 been.
12 BY MR. JOSEPH:
13 Q What else was in there?
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: The objection is
15 sustained. You can ask him -- well, the question is
16 along those lines, but please rephrase it.
17 BY MR. JOSEPH:
18 Q What else were you pouring with the
19 bricks?
20 A That's all, bricks, you know, whatever
21 brick, the walls.
22 Q Okay. What about the roof? Did you pour
23 the roof off, too?
24 A Yeah. We put it to the next level, to the
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
610
1 next level. You know, the roof material, we keep it
2 with the wood, all the wood together -- the roof and
3 wood goes together, garbage. We collect it all
4 together, and then we dump it, too.
5 Q What about the walls?
6 A Separate. We separate.
7 Q You separate those?
8 A Yes. The brick with wood, this is garbage.
9 We separate the brick with the wood. Iron separate,
10 too.
11 Q So what do you do with the walls?
12 A We -- as soon as we finish, you know,
13 clean the roof, get the walls, and dump it. We have
14 enough material, garbage, you know, the wood, we
15 dump that, too.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to --
17 excuse me a minute.
18 What's your last name again, sir?
19 MR. SANIAT: Saniat.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Saniat, I want
21 you to please refrain from whispering questions to
22 Mr. Joseph to ask while he is on his direct
23 examination, okay?
24 MR. SANIAT: Okay.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
611
1 BY MR. JOSEPH:
2 Q So you would just dump everything
3 that's -- everything that was in the building would
4 be dumped off the side?
5 MR. JEDDELOH: Objection. That's exactly
6 contrary to his testimony. Therefore, it's a
7 question that's unfair.
8 MR. JOSEPH: All right. Excuse me.
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: He didn't say that,
10 Mr. Joseph.
11 BY MR. JOSEPH:
12 Q You separate the metal, and you separate
13 the bricks ultimately. You recycle the bricks, but
14 everything else you throw away?
15 MR. JEDDELOH: That's still not his testimony
16 just given here, Mr. Knittle.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm going to sustain
18 this. You have to ask him questions instead of
19 providing for him answers to agree with.
20 MR. JOSEPH: All right. Okay.
21 BY MR. JOSEPH:
22 Q So what did you do with everything else
23 besides the metal and the bricks?
24 MR. JEDDELOH: Objection. Asked and answered.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
612
1 MR. JOSEPH: Pardon?
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Overruled. You can
3 answer that, if you can.
4 BY THE WITNESS:
5 A I don't understand when he says what I
6 do.
7 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Joseph, I think
8 he has explained what he has done with all the
9 materials, but I'm going to allow you to ask another
10 question.
11 MR. JOSEPH: Well, what I'm trying to do is
12 clarify that everything else was -- you know, that
13 everything else that was in the building was either
14 thrown over the side or taken to a landfill or
15 whatever.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: He can only testify
17 to what he testified to. I'll allow you one more
18 time to ask the question. If he understands it,
19 then he can answer, but then we're going to have to
20 move on.
21 MR. JOSEPH: Okay. Thank you.
22 BY MR. JOSEPH:
23 Q Other than the bricks which you separated
24 and the metal, everything else was pushed off the
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
613
1 side of the building?
2 MR. JEDDELOH: Same objection.
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Overruled.
4 BY THE WITNESS:
5 A No. I don't understand what he try to
6 say, you know, what he's asking me. I don't know.
7 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I don't think the
8 witness is being difficult. I just don't think he
9 understands what the question is.
10 MR. JOSEPH: Right, right.
11 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Why don't we move on
12 to another line of questions? I do think we've
13 answered this question already, but I'm not --
14 MR. JOSEPH: I think that's probably it.
15 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Ms. Minnick --
16 MR. JOSEPH: Thank you.
17 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm sorry, Mr. Joseph.
18 Are you finished?
19 MR. JOSEPH: I think so, yeah.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Ms. Minnick, do you
21 have any questions you want to ask this witness?
22 MS. MINNICK: Yes, please.
23
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
614
1 DIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MS. MINNICK:
3 Q Hello, Mr. Hernandez. I only have one
4 question.
5 What do you do with the fluorescent tubing
6 if you find that in the building?
7 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, I'm going to object
8 insofar as it hasn't been established that there was
9 any fluorescent tubing that was in contention here.
10 MS. MINNICK: May I ask if there is?
11 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Sure. Objection
12 sustained. Please rephrase your question.
13 BY MS. MINNICK:
14 Q Have you -- do you find fluorescent
15 tubings or light bulbs in the building?
16 A No.
17 MR. JEDDELOH: Well, I'm going to object and
18 ask that the answer be stricken insofar as it
19 relates to other buildings besides 1216.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right. I'm going to
21 overrule it. I think you were referring solely to
22 the building at 1216, Ms. Minnick? That was my
23 understanding of the question.
24 MS. MINNICK: Yes.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
615
1 MR. JEDDELOH: Okay.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: You can answer based
3 on just 1261.
4 BY THE WITNESS:
5 A No. I don't see any down there.
6 BY MS. MINNICK:
7 Q Nothing?
8 A Nothing.
9 MS. MINNICK: Okay. That was the only
10 question. Thank you.
11 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Thank you,
12 Ms. Minnick.
13 Mr. Wager?
14 DIRECT EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. WAGER:
16 Q Looking at the video from my own memory,
17 it seemed like it was pretty breezy that day. Do
18 you recall the direction or the velocity of the
19 breeze that day?
20 A No.
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Did you hear him? I
22 think he said no.
23 MR. WAGER: Yeah.
24 MR. JOSEPH: I'm going to object to his
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
616
1 attorney nodding his head when he looked over.
2 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I didn't do anything.
3 MR. JOSEPH: You did. You went like that, and
4 I think that that's unfair. It's leading the
5 witness, and it's totally uncalled for.
6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I didn't do anything.
7 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I didn't see
8 Mr. Blankenship do anything, but, if, in fact --
9 Mr. Blankenship is well aware, but I'll issue a
10 general precautionary statement that there will be
11 no coaching of any witnesses.
12 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I certainly know that, and I
13 did not coach the witness.
14 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I'm not suggesting
15 that you did. I'm just responding to Mr. Joseph's
16 statement.
17 If, in fact, something happens again, we
18 can -- happens or happens again, we can address it
19 at that time, okay, Mr. Joseph?
20 MR. JOSEPH: Thank you. Thank you, yes.
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Wager, do you
22 have any further questions?
23 BY MR. WAGER:
24 Q In the materials in the building, did you
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
617
1 see rodent or bird droppings?
2 A I don't -- excuse me. I don't understand
3 what you say.
4 Q In the building, did you see rodent or
5 bird shit?
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Do you understand the
7 question?
8 THE WITNESS: No.
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: He wants to know --
10 and I'm going to rephrase it just for timeliness
11 here.
12 In the building, when you demolished the
13 building, did you see any rodent droppings or bird
14 droppings in the building?
15 THE WITNESS: No, no. I didn't see any.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: No. The answer is
17 no.
18 Anything else, Mr. Wager?
19 BY MR. WAGER:
20 Q Did you see any birds fly over the building?
21 A No.
22 Q So you would deny any information about
23 the disposal of such if there were such?
24 MR. JEDDELOH: Objection to form. Asked and
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
618
1 answered.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes. I don't
3 understand the question anyway. The objection is
4 sustained.
5 Mr. Wager, do you have any further
6 questions?
7 MR. WAGER: No.
8 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. Thank you very
9 much.
10 Are there any questions on the Respondents'
11 side?
12 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Not from Speedway.
13 MR. JEDDELOH: The university doesn't have any
14 questions.
15 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Okay. I think that's
16 all we have for you, Mr. Hernandez. Thank you very
17 much for your time.
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
19 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.)
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Back on the record.
21 We've finished up witnesses for today. I
22 don't think there's anything else except to say that
23 we will report back here at 9:30 tomorrow.
24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: He's going to tell me who he
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
619
1 wants tomorrow, if anybody.
2 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Yes.
3 Off the record.
4 (Whereupon, a discussion was held off
5 the record.)
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Let's go back on.
7 We're back on the record. A member of the
8 public -- and can I ask you to spell your name for
9 the court reporter?
10 MR. SANIAT: My name is Saniat, S-a-n-i-a-t,
11 first name Thomas.
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Mr. Saniat, what is
13 it that you wish to bring up at this point in time?
14 MR. SANIAT: As an interested party, in
15 yesterday's conversation, you said that I might have
16 leave to make a statement but not cross examine the
17 witness as not being a defendant or to examine the
18 witnesses.
19 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right. I'm not sure
20 that's exactly what I said, but you do -- let's
21 see. I think you are able to make a statement at
22 some point. When are you looking to do that? Now I
23 think we're pretty much wrapped up for the day.
24 Are you going to be able to come back
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
620
1 tomorrow?
2 MR. SANIAT: I thought that -- yes. That would
3 even be better for me.
4 What time do you plan on finishing
5 tomorrow?
6 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, that's
7 something that we're going to have to address
8 tomorrow. That depends on the number of witnesses.
9 You could make any statement you want to make.
10 MR. SANIAT: I would do that after all the
11 witnesses and everything, correct, at the end?
12 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, I'm not sure
13 that we're going to finish this up tomorrow.
14 There's two outstanding motions to continue, and we
15 may have to revisit this at a later point in time.
16 If you're going to be here tomorrow, I'd rather
17 address it tomorrow.
18 MR. JEDDELOH: Also, this was only scheduled
19 until noon tomorrow.
20 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: It was scheduled for
21 two and a half days with the half day being open if
22 we needed it, as I recall. If you're not going to
23 be able to participate tomorrow afternoon,
24 Mr. Jeddeloh --
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
621
1 MR. JEDDELOH: I did schedule things because it
2 was my understanding that it was until noon on --
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, we'll have to
4 talk about that, and I would rather do scheduling
5 matters like that off the record, if at all
6 possible.
7 MR. JEDDELOH: Sure.
8 MR. SANIAT: Could I possibly then make
9 arrangements to either page you in the afternoon to
10 set it to my schedule because if you're still tied
11 up, then I could do it, if it was going to be
12 another day, on -- which would be Friday?
13 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Well, we would be
14 continuing this to a day not on Friday but to a day
15 farther off in the future. If that would be okay...
16 MR. SANIAT: Anything for the convenience of
17 the hearing.
18 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I will give you my
19 word as a hearing officer that we will at least give
20 you the opportunity to make any statement you wish
21 to make when this is over.
22 MR. SANIAT: Thank you.
23 MR. JEDDELOH: Mr. Knittle, the university
24 would object to this individual being present for
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
622
1 the hearing and then offering testimony by way of a
2 statement. That would --
3 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: I will take your
4 objection -- go ahead.
5 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And I'm taking a quick look
6 at the rules, and I don't see anything that allows
7 him to come in and just make a public comment. I
8 see rule 103.267.
9 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Right. He's got to
10 make a written statement, and then he could be cross
11 examined on that statement as I recall, right?
12 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Any person including the
13 USEPA may comment on the partial draft permit or
14 stipulated draft remedy within 45 days after it has
15 been filed with the board.
16 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: Oh, no. There's a
17 different provision.
18 Let's go off the record for a second.
19 (Whereupon, a discussion was held off
20 the record.)
21 HEARING OFFICER KNITTLE: We're back on the
22 record for the limited purpose of insuring that we
23 noted that the hearing tomorrow will resume at
24 9:30 a.m. in room 833, and that will be March 25th.
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
623
1 Thank you very much.
2 (Whereupon, the proceedings were
3 concluded at 4:50 p.m.)
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292
624
1 STATE OF ILLINOIS )
) SS.
2 COUNTY OF COOK )
3
4 I, CARYL L. HARDY, a Certified Shorthand
5 Reporter doing business in the County of Cook and
6 State of Illinois, do hereby certify that I reported
7 in machine shorthand the proceedings at the hearing
8 of the above-entitled cause.
9 I further certify that the foregoing is a
10 true and correct transcript of said proceedings as
11 appears from the stenographic notes so taken and
12 transcribed by me.
13
14
15
16
17 CSR No. 084-003896
18
19
20 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO
before me this ____ day
21 of ___________, A.D., 1999.
22 _____________________________
Notary Public
23
24
L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292