P98060A.PDF

BEFORE THE ILLINOIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD

CDT LANDFILL CORP., )

)

Petitioner, )

)

vs ) No. PCB 98-60

) (Landfill Siting Appeal)

CITY OF JOLIET, )

)

Respondent. )

The following is the transcript of a hearing held in

the above-entitled matter, taken

stenographically by

Geanna M. Iaquinta, CSR, a notary public within and for

the County of Cook and State of Illinois, before Ms.

Deborah L.

Feinen, Hearing Officer, at 150 West Jefferson

Street, Joliet, Illinois, on the 19th day of December,

1997, A.D., scheduled to commence at 10:00 o'clock a.m.,

commencing at 10:10 a.m.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

A P P E A R A N C E S:

HEARING TAKEN BEFORE:

ILLINOIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD

100 West Randolph Street

Suite 11-500

Chicago, Illinois 60601

(312) 814-4925

BY: MS. DEBORAH L. FEINEN

McKENNA, STORER, ROWE, WHITE & FARRUG,

200 North LaSalle Street

Chicago, Illinois 60601

(312) 558-8323

BY: MS. ELIZABETH S. HARVEY

- and -

DAVIS, KAPLAN, DYSTRUP and HOSTER, P.C.,

181 North

Hammes Avenue

Joliet, Illinois 60435

(815) 744-550

BY: MR. L. PARK DAVIS and MR. JOHN J.

KOBUS, JR.

Appeared on behalf of the Petitioner,

MAYER, BROWN & PLATT,

190 South LaSalle Street

Chicago, Illinois 60603

(312) 782-0600

BY: MS. PERCY L. ANGELO, MR. KEVIN DESHARNAIS,

and MR. THOMAS W. DIMOND

Appeared on behalf of the Respondent.

ALSO PRESENT:

Mr. Danny

Geiss

Mr. Calvin

Geiss

Ms. Colleen

McFadden

AUDIENCE MEMBERS WERE PRESENT, BUT NOT LISTED ON

APPEARANCE PAGE.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

I N D E X

PAGES

Opening by Hearing Officer............. 4

Opening Statement by Ms. Harvey........ 9

Opening Statement by Ms. Angelo....... 10

Public Comment and

Question and Answer Session........... 30

Closing Statement by Ms. Harvey...... 230

Closing Statement by Ms. Angelo...... 230

Closing by Hearing Officer........... 233

E X H I B I T S

Marked for

Identification

Hearing Public Comment No. 1....... 148

Hearing Public Comment No. 2....... 168

Hearing Public Comment No. 3....... 203

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

THE HEARING OFFICER: Good morning, and welcome

to the hearing in CDT Landfill vs. the City of Joliet,

PCB 98-60.

My name is Deborah

Feinen, and I am the hearing

officer for the Illinois Pollution Control Board for this

case.

For the record, I would note that it's 10:10 on

December 19th and that there are members of the public

present.

Before we begin, I would like to explain a little bit

about the board's hearing process.

First, you should know that it is the board and not me

that makes the decision in this case. My job consists of

guiding the hearing transcript and record in the case in

an orderly manner so that it is easy for the board to

follow, and assess the credibility of witnesses.

At times, I may ask for clarification for the record

or ask questions which I believe are necessary for the

board to fully understand what is taking place, and this

is provided for in the board's procedural rules.

CDT's complaint alleges that the city's decision on

the nine criteria used to cite the landfill was against

the manifest weight of the evidence. The parties and the

public are cautioned that the Illinois Environmental

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

Protection Act specifically states that no new or

additional evidence in support of or in opposition to any

finding or their determination or decision of the

appropriate county board or governing body of the

municipality shall be heard by the Pollution Control

Board.

This means no new evidence on the site in criteria.

The board's procedural rules in the Environmental

Protection Act do allow for members of the public to

speak or submit written statements at hearing.

However, any person speaking shall be subject to

cross-examination and must be sworn in. The statement

must be relevant to the case and the issues pending

before the board.

I will call for statements from the members of the

public after the parties present their case and then

again at 6:00 o'clock this evening.

If there's any member of the public who has to leave

and the parties have not completed their portion of the

presentation, please let me know by raising your hand or,

you know, just letting the court reporter know, and we

will get you in before you leave, and if there is any

other kind of timing issue for the public, please let me

know. It's very important to us that you get your

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

opportunity.

Yes, sir?

MR. REEVES: I need to leave here by 11:15 at

the latest.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Well, maybe what

we'll do then is once we get everything rolling and get

all the parties introduced, we'll go ahead and take your

statement before you leave.

MR. REEVES: Thank you very much.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.

At this time, I'd like to go ahead and have the

parties introduce themselves, all the attorneys, and if

there are any preliminary matters, I will hear them at

this time.

MS. HARVEY: Madam Hearing Officer, my name is

Elizabeth Harvey on behalf of the petitioner CDT

Landfill. I am joined by Park Davis and John

Kobus as

well, and for the record, Mr. Danny

Geiss and Mr. Calvin

Geiss, the owners of CDT Landfill, are also present today

along with the paralegal, Colleen

McFadden.

MS. ANGELO: My name is Percy Angelo. I'm

representing the City of Joliet. I'm accompanied by

Kevin Desharnais and Tom

Dimond this morning.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Are there any

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

preliminary matters before we get to opening statements?

MS. ANGELO: I do have a question I'd like to

raise, Madam Hearing Officer, about the issue of public

comments, and that is your view that the public must be

sworn in order to make a comment.

My experience with the board is that that has not been

the case. That the public has been allowed to make

comments in either a sworn statement, in which case they

are subject to cross-examination, or in an

unsworn

statement, in which case it is given different weight,

but still accepted, and that that is consistent with the

board's practice as well as of taking written comments

which, of course, would not be sworn.

Therefore, I would ask that you allow the public in

this proceeding to have the same possibilities of making

that kind of presentation to you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Is there any

comment from counsel?

MS. HARVEY: My experience with the board is

slightly different. I am not aware of a situation where

the public testified orally at the hearing in which they

were not sworn and subject of cross-examination.

Of course, they can present a written comment that is

not sworn or subject to cross-examination, but I would

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

object to allowing a member of the public to testify

without the opportunity to cross-question them.

THE HEARING OFFICER: My ruling is going to

stand. If the public does not wish to be sworn in, they

may file a written public statement and state whatever it

is that they wish to state, but if they want to testify

at hearing, they are going to need to be sworn in.

MS. ANGELO: You understand, Madam Hearing

Officer, that by using the word testify, you're deciding

the issue by that use of the term.

My point was, and I think the practice of the board

has been, that when people testify, of course, they're

under oath and of course they're subject to

cross-examination, but they are also allowed to make

comments either orally or in writing, and that was the

point that I was making.

THE HEARING OFFICER: I understand that. I

have never at any hearing allowed any member to make an

unsworn statement. If a member of the public wishes to

do it and you wish to do that as an offer of proof and

take that objection to the board, you may do that. We'll

cross that bridge if and when we come to it.

I've never had a member of the public refuse to be

sworn in so that their statement has full weight of being

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

a sworn statement and we've never had any problem with

badgering by attorneys or anything that would make the

public uncomfortable to come forward and make a

statement.

If that, indeed, happens and we have an objection from

the public, we'll handle it at that time. Okay.

Is there anything further? Okay. Then would you like

to go ahead and make opening statements?

MS. HARVEY: Madam Hearing Officer, I have a

very brief opening statement. We will reserve the bulk

of our statement and our positions for filing of written

briefs as we, I believe, have previously discussed the

issue of filing of briefs.

CDT Landfill filed an application for siting approval,

which was denied after an extensive hearing and

submission of evidence and comments by the City of Joliet

in October of 1997.

We have filed a petition for review alleging that that

denial is against the manifest weight of the evidence

that was presented. CDT Landfill presented overwhelming

and unrebutted expert testimony and expert evidence that

shows that the proposed expansion satisfies all of the

applicable criteria under the Section 39.2 of the Act.

Therefore, the City of Joliet was required to find

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

that those criteria had been satisfied and to grant

siting approval.

We contend that that decision was against the manifest

weight of the evidence, and we will more fully explain

and provide the board with a detailed argument and record

citation in our written briefs.

I don't have anything further.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. City?

MS. ANGELO: I do have an opening statement,

Madam Hearing Officer, and I intended my opening

statement to outline some of the problems and the central

problems we think exist with the application that was

made by CDT Landfill here.

I think it is important before I begin because there

has been the emphasis made by the hearing officer and

made by CDT Landfill that it's understood by everyone

that I am talking about what's in the record in my

opening statement and in the arguments we will make so

that there should be no impression left with anyone that

there is somehow some effort that we have to make to add

materials to the record to support the decision that was

made by the city, and I will not be doing that today.

The application that was made here was troublesome on

several scores, and as those involved no -- it was denied

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

for several reasons, and those reasons were stated in the

city's decision, and I want to just briefly outline some

of the problems that arise under those reasons that were

given and were denied.

First, the issue of need, and, as you know, CDT had to

make a showing that the landfill was necessary to serve

the area it was intended to, and that its expansion is

necessary as well.

In this area, there was a very serious flaw with

showing that was made by the landfill. They made a

showing based on long-term need over a period of 24

years, when, in fact, the landfill that they are

proposing is a landfill that's intended to operate for

seven and a half to eight years.

That simply is not an adequate showing of need for the

kind of landfill they actually intend to operate. There

is no short-term need for that landfill, and as to

long-term need, their showing specifically excluded the

availability of the Joliet Army Ammunition Plant Landfill

which is part of the county's plan for long-term landfill

needs in the area, and as a result of those flaws, I

think there is a fundamental failing in the showing that

was made as to need.

They also excluded other facilities that were

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

available, which they discounted for other reasons, and

that we can go into further in our briefing, and I won't

take your time with that this morning.

They also did a number of things which inaccurately

represented the demand for the landfill. For example,

they defined the area that the landfill was intended to

serve as the Will County service area, but they defined

the Will County service area to include numerous

communities on the borders of Will County whose

population, in effect, pretty much overwhelms the

population of Will County.

For example, they include Aurora,

Naperville, Tinley

Park, and a number of others. The actual Will County

area, and, again, I'm relying on their own record

evidence, is apparently much smaller.

Their actual service area, based on their historical

service, has apparently been much smaller, and that,

again, is admitted by them in the record.

Accordingly, what they are proposing to do, although

they don't say this as forthrightly as I think they

might, is substantially expand the service area they

intend to serve in order to try to show need. I think

that's an improper way of going about that process.

Bottom line, the last year for which they presented

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

data they showed that they accepted 764,000

gateyards of

waste. They propose to show -- to accept one million

gateyards of waste annually. That's a substantial

increase, and yet it is one that they never explained in

the record that they provided to the board below.

Basically, I think when the record is reviewed, it

will be clear that they have not met the requirement that

they show need for this landfill facility.

The next criteria that they were supposed to provide

support for was that the landfill would adequately

protect health and safety. This presentation that was

made has, again, a major flaw, a number of major flaws,

but there was an overriding flaw with the presentation

that they made both on this issue and on several other of

the issues in which they presented, and that was that

their consultants made the argument that because the

existing landfill is present and by assumption must be

okay that any expansion of that existing landfill must

also be okay.

That's not an adequate showing. That is, by the

board's own decisions, is not an adequate showing. You

are supposed to deal with this new landfill request as if

it will have -- as it -- if it is a new facility will

have an impact on the area. It is not sufficient to say

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

because there's already a landfill there, although it's

about to close, it's okay to continue that landfill at

great length.

If I can use an analogy that came to me yesterday as I

was sitting at the dentist, it's like saying because it's

reasonable to expect someone to go to the dentist for

half an hour, it's also reasonable to expect them to go

to the dentist for several hours.

My feeling at that time was that's not a reasonable

expectation, but I think it's true here, too, because

people have been asked to put up with the landfill

facility for five years in connection with the last

expansion. It doesn't mean that it automatically must be

okay to ask them to put up with an additional seven and a

half or eight years, and you had at the hearing below

individual after individual after individual coming in

and saying they told us five years ago that would be the

end. Why do we have to come up and face this again now?

And our contention is that their failure to address

the actual impact, to just say that because it's there

now, the impact must be okay is a fatal flaw in the

application. Indeed, we suggest it indicates the

application itself is not even complete.

We know also that the application by being focused on

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

the current situation also fails to deal with the fact

that's clearly present in the record that the waste

increase will go from 700 -- waste accepted will go from

764,000 in the last year for which they gave data to 1.0

million per year. That's an increase of at least 30

percent by my math, and it hasn't been addressed.

Additionally, their evidence, their record evidence

shows that this landfill expansion is being placed in an

area that used to be, at least, a sand and gravel

aquifer. They rely on nothing to protect the landfill

other than engineered barriers pursuant to the

regulations of the board.

They have a situation where there are drainage ways

through that landfill facility, drainage ways apparently

out from under I-80 based on their own materials.

Those drainage ways are such as to interfere with the

ability to develop that landfill further. In other

words, there is evidence in their own record that whether

or not they follow the Environmental Protection Agency's

rules for putting in a landfill, the location that they

have chosen may, as far as the city counsel was

concerned, may not be the ideal location for such a

facility.

Further, there's the issue of height, and here there

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

is great confusion in their own record as to what they

are doing with regard to height.

Just so it's clear, my comments are clear, they have

asked for an expansion of something they call area three,

but they've also asked to expand the height of area two,

and what I have had great difficulty finding in their own

application is any indication of how much they intend to

extend the height of area two.

Their application materials, as far as I can see,

don't forthrightly address that issue. Indeed, they

presented for the record a topographic map of what they

called the existing site, and yet that topographic map,

which was prepared in '96, relies, if you look at the

small print, on

topo contours for area two from 1991.

MS. HARVEY: Excuse me. Counsel, could you

tell us where on the record that's located or if there's

an exhibit number on that?

MS. ANGELO: It is sheet two of 12 of your

consultant's exhibit, Mr.

Reger's exhibit, and I don't

have an exhibit number for you.

MS. HARVEY: Thank you.

MS. ANGELO: Although, I can certainly get it.

So that at least based on their own documentation,

they have failed to show what the present height of the

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

landfill is and how much of a height increase they're

actually seeking.

I think this is a fatal flaw when you're trying to

explain why you are justified in having such a height

increase and why there will be no impact by height

increase.

I might add that this exhibit is on its face very

difficult to follow because for CDT Landfill area two it

relies on '91 topographic contours. For landfill area

three, it relies on '95 topographic contours.

That means that as far as I can tell this, quote,

unquote, existing site topographic map represents a

situation that never existed in reality and never can

exist in reality, and I leave it to others to try and

determine why a document of that kind would have been

provided for the record.

The only thing that I have been able to find in the

record about the existing height of the landfill comes

from some questioning that was done of

CDT's witnesses,

and someone finally said that the height increase would

go from up -- the height increase would be 66 feet up to

100 feet above I-80.

By subtracting, that tells me that the existing height

of the landfill is 33 feet. That suggests that the

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

increase that they're asking for is an increase of 200

percent, a very substantial increase not to have

addressed forthrightly in their documents, and we will

get a little bit later to the administrative notice that

we have asked the board to take, but part of that

administrative notice is directed to letting the board

see what everyone else in Joliet knows which is how high

that thing is now and get a picture of how high it's

going to be when it's completed, and the reason why it is

perfectly plain to everyone, it's sitting right out there

on I-80. Everyone knows how high that is now, and unless

the board sees it by administrative notice, this record

will be unnecessarily impacted, I believe.

Why is there this big hole as to height? I don't know

for sure, but one of the things they did put in the

record was an enforcement case that's been brought by the

City of Joliet -- not the City of Joliet, I'm sorry, by

the County of Will for

overheight.

In other words, claiming that they have filled their

existing landfill too high. That was case was decided

against them. It's in the record. There is no evidence

-- there is evidence of continuing administrative

citations for

overheight and no evidence that that

landfill height has been corrected, and I leave it to our

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

arguments to address why they might have done such a

thing.

We'll talk about height again a little bit when I get

to the land use impact portion of the discussion, but I

wanted to add just one additional matter with regard to

protection of public health and safety, and that is that

the road that services the landfill is Mound Road.

The record shows that it is an unimproved road. It's

gravel. It's narrow at many spots. It has potholes, and

the record shows there is dust everywhere, and so when

you have citizens complaining below, as they did, about

dust, there's good basis for those complaints.

They've similarly complained about odors. That's also

certainly an issue under this area of the discussion, but

I will reserve that just momentarily.

Another thing that CDT had to show is that there is--

that they've done what they can to minimize impact on the

surrounding communities. As we've said before, and as

everyone said at the hearing, people were told five years

ago that it would be five years of additional

landfilling

at this location, and then it would be over, and they're

understandably concerned that that no longer seems to be

the case.

CDT is now saying it's okay to extend it because it's

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

okay five years ago, it's perfectly okay as well, but,

again, we say our position is that you have to deal with

the current circumstance, and you have to deal with the

actual length of time that people are expected to put up

with an impact like that, and that they have not -- CDT

has not made an adequate showing that there has been an

attempt to minimize impact in these communities. Indeed,

we think there's been a failure to address that issue

entirely.

CDT's own expert said that residential areas here are

encroaching on the area of the landfill. I suggest to

you that right there there's an admission that there's

been a change in circumstances, but beyond that, he also

says, and there are comments by local business persons as

well, that they are opposed to landfill expansions and

they have been impacted by the landfill.

In particular, you had comments by businessmen

associated with a development called Rock Run, and Rock

Run -- the Rock Run individuals were concerned about the

impact the landfill would have on the development they

are trying to make very near the landfill.

The expert for CDT said that there was no problem for

Rock Run because he knew of a similar business park

located near another landfill called Mallard Lake and

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

that Mallard Lake hadn't been impacted, the Mallard Lake

Business Park hadn't been impacted.

The Rock Run individual came in to the record below

and said I was associated with Mallard Lake, and I know

there was an impact there. In response to that debate

between these two individuals over whether or not there

actually was an impact at this other landfill and whether

there would be one at Rock Run, the expert for CDT opined

that the people at Rock Run would be no more impacted by

having that landfill expanded than a gambler going to the

river boats at the Empress, and that that meant that

there was really no impact that had to concern anyone

here.

We suggest that that indicates the level of thoughtful

consideration that was given to this issue by the expert

that was presented.

We will indicate in the record at the time of our

briefing the very substantial discussion of the impacts

on businesses in the area, residences in the area, and

Rock Run.

We have also provided via our request for

administrative notice a series of materials, official

actions by the City of Joliet, with regard to Rock Run,

which we believe clearly show that the area has changed,

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

the city's plans for that area has changed, that that

area is intended to be developed in a way that would

encourage that business park and the employment it would

bring in.

MS. HARVEY: Madam Hearing Officer, I have an

objection to discussion of items that are not currently

in the record.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Ms. Angelo?

MS. ANGELO: And I'm making very clear where

I'm talking about a matter of administrative notice, and

I'm making very clear where I'm dealing with matters that

are already in your record, and I do not agree, by the

way, that matters of administrative notice are not part

of the record, but I would add that the discussion as to

the support that has been given Rock Run is in the record

as assembled below and what we are merely doing by

administrative notice is to provide the actual official

actions that constitute that support by the city.

THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm going to overrule the

objection, although I do not agree with you that the

items on administrative notice are in the record yet.

There is a motion to take official notice that is

pending. So they are not currently in the record.

Please, continue.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

MS. ANGELO: I think what is clear -- what will

be clear is that the city's plan for that area is

consistent with the development of the businesses that

have grown up there over the last five years with the

expansion of the residential areas that have occurred,

all of which were noted by

CDT's own expert, and that

that clearly indicates that by simply saying, as CDT did,

you know, it was okay five years ago, it ought to be okay

now, they have fundamentally failed to meet this

requirement of the showing that they need to make.

We talked about height a little bit earlier. I simply

want to add here as well that height is an element not

only of health and safety, but also an element of impact

on a surrounding community, and that this is one that's a

very noticeable impact as well.

I want to add, however, with regard to height that

there are several areas in this record where we talk --

there was discussion of

berms, berming, that the landfill

will be bermed on the north and the western sides.

I am unable by looking through I think very carefully

the site drawings to find any evidence of plans for

berming, with one exception, which I will tell you

about. On one of the large plans, there is in the legend

a dotted line that indicates that it's supposed to show

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

berming, but I have not been able to find anywhere on

that plan an actual

berm.

I think the point is important because the myth or the

idea that this landfill can somehow be screened from the

population and that its impacts can be mitigated by

berming or landscaping is simply not borne out by their

own plans or by the idea that an eight-foot

berm,

apparently below the level of I-80, is going to have any

impact on screening a hundred foot landfill.

The citizens have also complained about odors. That

is in the record. There is testimony from Mr.

Geiss of

the landfill that although he agrees and the -- 80

percent of the odors, as far as I can tell his testimony,

do come from his facility. I think his position seems to

be that they're all associated with his composting

activities.

The citizens disagree. I think in a circumstance like

that, the city council is certainly entitled to weigh the

evidence, and that is clearly within that.

Similarly with issues such as blowing dust, I don't

know that that was even addressed by Mr.

Geiss. It was

certainly addressed by citizens who made presentations or

submissions in writing.

We also want to make sure you note for your record

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

that the dust issues are not simply associated with the

landfill itself, but are also associated with traffic on

Mound Road going into the landfill.

Mound Road, as you, again, will see from the pictures

that we've provided as part of our request for

administrative notice and which everyone in this area can

see all the time is narrow at many spots, has potholes,

and the record shows it's a gravel road.

MS. HARVEY: Madam Hearing Officer, if you'd

just note a continuing objection to reference to anything

that's contained in that request for the administrative

notice.

THE HEARING OFFICER: So noted.

MS. ANGELO: We have in the record a comment by

the neighbor of the landfill that he has to wash off his

grandchild's toys just so that she can play with them.

He comments on the frequency of the traffic. I believe

his testimony was that the trucks increased from -- to

one every 50 or 60 seconds passed his home.

Of course, we recognize that that road is shared with

other industries, but the question here is, is the impact

that is presented by the landfill a reasonable impact and

one that's been properly assessed, and we note for your

record that I don't know of anyplace in the presentation

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

made by CDT that they indicate how many trucks are

actually using their landfill, with one exception I

found, and that is a place where they agree that between

12:30 and 1:30 on one day that was counted, they had a

hundred trucks.

That seems like quite an impact, and I think their

failure to address that issue more completely is a

serious failure in their showing. With that kind of

impact, it was reasonable for the citizens to continue

asking isn't five years enough, why do we have to deal

with this further? And they did ask that on the record

below.

Finally, on this issue of impact on the surrounding

community, is the whole area of property values. This is

an area where you did have citizens comment that they

felt there had been an impact, and CDT did present an

expert on that issue, and that expert did a study. That

expert has done a lot of other studies of similar kinds

where he takes a control area and he takes an area near a

landfill and he shows their rates of appreciation, and he

has found in the past, and he said in his report that the

rates of appreciation near the landfills often were

higher than in the control area he had found.

He didn't get that result when he did the same thing

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

here. Indeed, he found that the rate of appreciation of

the subdivision closest to the landfill was lower than in

his control area, and what he said is he didn't think the

difference was significant.

The difference is the difference between three percent

and 3.91 percent. By my math, that's about a 30 percent

difference. I don't know that anyone would say that's

insignificant.

I think that

CDT's own expert has supported the

citizens in their concern about that issue. We've

already talked a little bit about traffic. I won't go

into it again except to note that there is a separate

category that deals with traffic.

I will note again, however, that despite what they

have said about traffic, which is that traffic is already

existing, what does it matter if it goes on for another

year -- couple of years, eight years to be certain, to be

clear.

They do also have an increase in their own data in

capacity that they're planning to accept, and they

haven't dealt with that in their traffic study. Again,

that increase is from 764,000

gateyards in the last year

as to which they commented to one million, which is what

they plan to accept under the expansion.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

Again, my math says that's about a 30 percent

increase, and it seems to me that that deserves some

discussion, but it never got any.

Just so you understand, again, where I'm digressing

strictly from the record. We have provided in the

materials for administrative notice city council action

indicating that the council approved a truck terminal for

the Houbolt Road, Mound Road area. That is something

that when we're talking about administrative notice,

that's something that everyone on the city council knew

when they were dealing with this application, and it is

our -- again, our belief that that is something the board

should know when it is

reviewieng the city council's

action, but the point is that obviously there is a

serious traffic issue there and one that has not been

adequately addressed by the studies presented by CDT.

I will note that I believe the studies presented by

CDT go back to data that they collected in 1995, which is

not all that current in any event.

Finally, on the issue of the solid waste management

plan, they're supposed to show that their plan is

consistent with the county plan -- that their expansion,

excuse me, is consistent with the county plan, and what

they have provided is a number of statements that deal

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

with that issue indirectly.

What they don't address is the fact that the county

plan calls for reliance on the Joliet Army Ammunition

Landfill. They specifically reject that in their

consideration because they say it hasn't been finally

decided yet, and, therefore, we are not going to consider

it.

I'm not sure how you can be consistent with a county

plan unless you address that issue.

Further, they say that the county plan calls for

interim landfill capacity before the Joliet Army Arsenal

Landfill is developed. The fact is that that interim

capacity is to be provided according to the county plan

by the contractor who has the contract for the county,

and that is -- that contractor has been chosen, and it's

that contractor's job to provide interim capacity, not

CDT.

In summary, that's what we think the major problems

with the record that CDT has prepared are. We believe

that their application is flawed on many levels,

including a failure to make basic submissions on the very

central issues that are dealt with by the statute.

We look forward to providing you a full argument on

these issues in our briefs, and thank you.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

THE HEARING OFFICER: Before we continue, we

did have one member of the public who said he needed to

leave.

Sir, if you'd like to come up, and you can just use

the microphone over here.

And if you could state your name and spell it for our

court reporter, please.

MR. REEVES: My name is Howard Reeves,

R-e-e-v-e-s. I live at 3607

Bankview in Joliet,

Illinois.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Would you please

swear the witness?

(Witness sworn.)

WHEREUPON:

H O W A R D R E

E V E S,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr. Reeves

Q. My business was formerly Crown Trade Corporation,

which I closed down approximately five years ago, which

was located on Route 6 next to Caterpillar.

I only give you that information to let you know where

I've spent the last 30-some years of my life.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

THE HEARING OFFICER: Sir, I hate to do this to

you, but if you could slow down a little bit for our

court reporter --

MR. REEVES: Sorry.

THE HEARING OFFICER: -- to make sure she gets

it.

MR. REEVES: I wanted to hurry so I didn't get

anything left out.

I have spent these last 30-some years on Route 6 next

to Caterpillar, which is approximately one mile south of

the landfill under discussion today.

My home is at 3607

Bankview, which is approximately

two miles north of the landfill, maybe three. These are

crow flight miles, direct miles. I have never smelled

any obnoxious odor from this landfill, either at my work

or my home or traveling from one or the other place.

By necessity, having been in the construction business

all of my adult life, I spent some time in and out of

that landfill. I spent some time in and out of Joliet

Sand and Gravel, which is their neighbor. Obviously, we

bought material over the years. I've been up and down

that road hundreds of times.

It seems to me that there's been a real disservice to

Cal and all the rest of the businesses that are down

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

there by someone that wasn't responsible for that road in

not improving it so they didn't have such

a -- to beat their trucks up to get in and out of there.

I think that the issue of the landfill, the need for a

landfill, is always there. I think we neglect too often

the economics of a landfill. We want to get it down to

where there's only one landfill. I think the landfill

should be where it is today because we don't need to

continue to scatter landfills all over this country.

I think if we keep them concentrated in the area

they're in today, allow them to raise their height, allow

them to expand in those areas, we're much further ahead

to reduce the pollution of this country, not expand it

and scatter it all over the area.

It seems to me regardless of what's going to happen at

the arsenal, regardless of what's going to happen with

the other landfills in the area, it seems to me as though

that a little competition would be good for these issues.

I think we should have more than one or two landfills

going at the same time. I know if there's only one

business, I know what happens to the price, and I think

the price of getting rid of our debris in this country is

getting a little out of hand.

I think that, you know, we sit here and condemn people

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

that we live next to an obnoxious industry. Well, I've

been in an obnoxious industry all my life, and we worked

very hard to keep the industry clean, and I'm sure that

most people that are conscientious and been in business

as long as what CDT has work towards those same goals,

and I think that we are very quick to criticize.

I think, you know, it's like O'Hare Field. People you

see in the paper every day about people criticizing

O'Hare Field, and they weren't there when O'Hare Field

was built. These people -- there's been a landfill, I

believe, in that area ever since I can remember before

CDT was there.

I had a -- the Environmental Protection Agency called

me several years ago about testing my well. I happen to

have a well at my office, and they wanted to test my well

to see the results of a landfill that had been closed

some 30 years.

So I know that there are at least 30-some years that

there's been a landfill in that area.

These are about the only comments that I have to make,

but I do get a little emotional about this. I do get a

little emotional about people trying to keep business

down and not allowing business to run. I think that

business should be controlled. I think that it's

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

wonderful that business is controlled, but sometimes we

stifle business and it's to our discomfort that we do

that because it costs us more money in the long run, and

I think that it should be controlled and maintained in an

orderly and clean fashion.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Are there any questions

from the attorneys?

MS. ANGELO: Can I ask for instructions from

the hearing officer on how she want's to proceed. I

don't know

whether -- I'm sorry, sir. I didn't get your name.

MR. REEVES: Howard Reeves.

MS. ANGELO: Mr. Reeves. I didn't -- couldn't

tell whether Mr. Reeves had testified below or presented

any comments below. By some view of the situation, one

might say that Mr. Reeves had provided a substantial

amount of additional evidence.

Is this evidence you're intending to take for your

record? If not, how are you going to handle it? I just

think we all should have some guidance before we go

forward.

THE HEARING OFFICER: It is generally my

practice to give as much leeway as possible to the

public. I believe that the board is more than capable of

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

looking at the public testimony and discerning what is

new and additional evidence.

They are interested in public comment and allowing the

public a chance to speak. If there is an objection, I'd

be willing to hear it. Otherwise, I'm going to go ahead

and allow the testimony to stand. If you wish to ask Mr.

Reeves if he spoke below you, you are free to do that.

MS. ANGELO: My interest is primarily in making

sure that whatever precedent we're setting now is one

that will continue for the remainder of the hearing.

THE HEARING OFFICER: That is my intention.

Can everybody hear me without the mike? Okay.

MS. ANGELO: In that case, I have a very

limited number of questions.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Angelo

Q. Mr. Reeves, did you provide any testimony or any

comments in the proceeding to this before this date?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. You indicated that you're in an industry that's

located a mile south of the landfill?

A. That is correct. Route 6 next to Caterpillar.

Q. And what is your industry?

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

A. It was an asphalt paving business.

Q. Okay. And what was its name?

A. Crown Tree Corporation.

Q. And is that still there?

A. No.

Q. Were you or are you a customer of the landfill?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. You indicated, I believe, in your comments

that you had been in the landfill?

A. Yes.

Q. And is that in connection with your business as a

customer?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you discussed your testimony this morning or

your intention to provide testimony this morning with

anyone from the landfill or their lawyers?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you discuss what you intended to provide

for the board in your testimony with those individuals?

A. I told them what my -- generally, what my ideas

were, yes.

Q. Did they contact you about testifying this

morning?

A. No.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

Q. Thank you.

MS. ANGELO: Thank you.

MR. REEVES: Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

MS. HARVEY: I have one follow-up question if I

may.

R E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Harvey

Q. Mr. Reeves, did anyone from the landfill, either

CDT or any of their lawyers, tell you what to say?

A. No.

Q. Okay. I don't have anything else.

A. And anybody that knows me, it wouldn't have made

any difference anyway.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Ma'am, you had your hand

up. Do you also have to leave?

MS. GEARHART: Yes, I do.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. If you'd like to

come up then and we'll you --

MR. FLOOD: I have to leave.

THE HEARING OFFICER: If you could state your

name and spell it for our court reporter, please.

MS. GEARHART: Yes. Good morning. My name is

Maryann Gearhart. M-a-r-y-a-n-n, and then

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

G-e-a-r-h-a-r-t.

I live at 3676

Ayrline, A-y-r, in Crete, Illinois. I

am a member of the Will County board representing that

district. I have been on the Will County board for 13

years.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Could you please

swear the witness?

(Witness sworn.)

THE HEARING OFFICER: Please

continue.

WHEREUPON:

M A R Y A N

N G E A R H A R T,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms.

Gearhart

Q. Thank you. As a member of the Will County board,

I'm here to reaffirm a resolution that we adopted in

October endorsing the expansion of the CDT Landfill

because it met the needs and was within the capacities

that we were dependent on as a Will County community and

our solid waste management plan.

I also am here, I can tell you, as the Crete township

supervisor, CDT Landfill provided a service through an

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

intergovernmental agreement with the county to do some

clean up and did it in the most judiciously and

coordinated the efforts of all the agencies that were

required to get that clean up done.

That, again, as my hat as a county board member, we

are dependent upon the need of the capacity of

CDT's

expansion. We have several --

Beecher-Sexton Landfill in

Will County has closed. We are in the process of trying

to site our own landfill.

We have sited it for what we consider to be the space

needs of the county, and that interim period of time, we

are looking to have this capacity available even over and

above that capacity that we are going to require under

our contract for our contractor that deemed to be

successful as an interim, and those are my comments.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Are there any questions?

MS. ANGELO: Yes.

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Angelo

Q. Mrs.

Gearhart, you indicated that there had been a

resolution of the county board. Was that provided for

the record in this case?

A. I believe it was. We sent it.

Q. Do you know the date of it?

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

A. October. If not, we can -- I'll make sure it gets

there.

Q. You made a comment with regard to the Joliet Army

Ammunition Plant Landfill and the intentions for that

landfill.

Is it correct that your contractor for that landfill

is going to be Waste Management?

A. We have voted to make that contract, but it is --

that's in litigation right now as we speak, but that is

who we have endorsed as being our contractor.

Q. Okay. And so that's who has been selected by your

board?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And has Waste Management designated

Wheatland

Prairie as the interim facility that would be made

available?

A. No, they have not.

Q. Have they suggested that that was the one they'd

A. No, they have.

Q. -- like to designate?

Have they designated CDT?

A. I can't tell you that. I think we're looking to

have that taken care of in the future, but I would assume

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

that that capacity was there. It's something that they

would depend upon.

Q. You're making an assumption about what you think

Waste Management is assuming?

A. Yes.

Q. And, finally, does the county receive a fee from

the -- from CDT for disposal of waste in this expansion

if it is granted?

A. I believe there's an agreement with the expansion,

and that I think is part of the entire community working

out to meet our space needs that they worked out a host

fee agreement in the expansion process, and so the county

will receive a host fee.

Q. And do you know how much that is?

A. You know what, I apologize. I do not off the top

of my head.

Q. Has there been some action by the county to

authorize your presentation this morning?

A. I came here by resolution --

by -- to reaffirm our resolution.

Q. To -- the resolution that -- those documents?

A. That were passed by the board, yes.

Q. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Is there anything

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

further? Do you have anything?

MS. HARVEY: I don't have anything. Thank

you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

MS. GEARHART: Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes, ma'am. Oh, can we

let him go next, and then you can?

MS. KONICKI: Sure.

MR. FLOOD: My name is Bob Flood, and I'm with

a company called Flood Brothers Disposal. We operate out

of DuPage County.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Can you be

sworn, please?

(Witness sworn.)

WHEREUPON:

B O B F L O

O D,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr. Flood

Q. We are a customer of CDT Landfill. I've been in

the landfill. I was not told to come here to speak, and

what I am giving you right now is just my thoughts and my

30 years in this industry, and it's all my thoughts, and

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

it's not given to me by the

Geiss family.

The Geiss family to us is competition as the gentleman

earlier had spoken. The

Geiss family, everybody that

uses their landfill and, for that matter, to the people

that live in Will County can find the

Geiss people.

They can go right to their house if they have to. All

right. I don't think they're going to put their name on

the line to run a shabby type of operation.

To me, my expert opinion in 30 years in this industry,

I've seen 300 companies go by the wayside. I've seen

public-traded companies take over our industry.

The name of the game that I see, yes, there's traffic

matters, yes, there's dust matters. Those can be

overcome. The name of the game here is competition.

They don't want the

Geiss family in this business here in

Will County. There's a national conglomerate that wants

to come into this community, and if they come into this

community and the

Geiss family is here, the stockholders

aren't going to make money.

All right. The

Geiss family is here to keep the

prices down on taxpayers and Will County and in the City

of Joliet. If the

Geiss family is here and gets their

expansion, the large conglomerates cannot raise their

prices, and if they can't raise their prices, they can't

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

make the stockholders more money.

If there's two gas stations on the corner, is the gas

price going to be a $1.40? No. It's the same thing in

the garbage business. If there's two landfills in the

neighborhood or in the area, it's going to be a $22.00 a

ton figure as opposed to in Lake County or in Cook County

where the tonnage figures are $40.00 and $50.00 a ton.

That's what this is all about. That's my opinion.

I've been in this business for 30 years, and I've got an

idea of what's going on. That's just my expert opinion.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Are there any questions?

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Angelo

Q. Mr. Flood, did you testify or provide any comments

on the proceeding below?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you testify or provide comments, written

comments?

A. I came up here and just talked the way I talked

now.

Q. You said that to you the

Geiss family is

competition, and I'm not sure I understood that comment.

Are you saying that you are in competition with them?

A. No. I'm saying that the large national

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

conglomerates are competitive with the

Geiss family. If

the Geiss family is in business, the prices of garbage

hauling in this county are going to be less if the

Geiss

family continues to go in business.

If the

Geiss family is not here, the prices are going

to accelerate.

Q. Are you a waste

hauler?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you -- do you run any kind of waste disposal

facility?

A. No.

Q. You said the traffic, the dust can be overcome.

Are you aware of anything that's in the record here

indicating that the traffic and the dust will be

overcome?

A. No.

Q. Thank you.

A. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, sir.

Please state your name for the record. I think it's

the other one that's on.

MS. KONICKI: My name is Kathleen

Konicki,

K-a-t-h-l-e-e-n, K-o-n-

i-c-k-i. I live at 13325 167th

Street in Homer Township, and I also am a member of the

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

Will County board like --

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Can we get you

sworn in before you start?

(Witness sworn.)

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.

Please continue.

WHEREUPON:

K A T H L E

E N K O N I C K I,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms.

Konicki

Q. I also am a member of the Will County board, and I

came here partly for the same reason as Ms.

Gearhart,

which was to support the resolution we passed in

October.

In passing that resolution, we made a finding that

there was a need in our county for CDT to be granted this

expansion. We made a further finding that the expansion

was consistent about our waste disposal plan for the

county.

I won't go over the testimony Ms.

Gearhart gave, but I

do want to add that the reputation of CDT within our

county is very good. I'm aware of the complaint that the

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

opposing counsel mentioned earlier, but I can tell you

that ranked among their peers, they run a very good

operation, and the county has found them very

cooperative, and any problems that have arisen, we've

gotten them resolved fairly quickly and to our

satisfaction.

I've toured their facility. They have a first-rate

recycling program in place, and -- excuse me, given, I

think everyone here is already aware, the problems the

county is having in getting our Joliet Arsenal disposal

underway because of the litigation that's been initiated,

we really hope to see CDT granted this expansion.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Are there any

questions?

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Angelo

Q. I guess I have to start out with an apology. I

could not hear your name when you were giving it, and I

probably should know what it is.

A. It's Kathleen

Konicki, and I know you'll ask, I

did not testify at the lower level in the proceeding.

Q. You indicated that you were here to support the

resolution that had been passed by the Will County board?

A. That's correct.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

Q. So your testimony this morning is, in your mind,

consistent with the resolution that's been passed?

A. Correct, in terms of the need and the consistency,

yes.

Q. You've indicated that the reputation of the

landfill is good?

A. Of CDT.

Q. Of CDT?

A. And their Landfill, yes.

Q. Have you ever done any environmental investigation

of the landfill itself?

A. I know the record of problems within the county of

CDT and its peers, and I know that CDT is one of the top

operators.

Q. And I guess I want to make sure that I get an

answer to my question and that is whether you've ever

done or reviewed an investigation of the environmental

compliance of CDT?

A. No. I testified to the reputation within our

community.

Q. And when did you tour the landfill?

A. Oh, I toured the landfill probably six months ago.

Q. Have you ever observed the landfill from the

residential area across I-80?

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

A. No, I have not.

Q. Have you ever visited the residential area across

I-80 to determine the impact on that area?

A. No. I'm not testifying to that, and I have not.

Q. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Do you have anything, Ms.

Harvey?

MS. HARVEY: I don't have anything. Thank

you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. I see there was a

hand in the far back. Do you also have to leave, sir?

No. Okay. Will you please come up and then this man

with the red tie.

MS. GRAY: Good morning. My name is

Tana Gray,

and --

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. You need to spell

your name for our court reporter.

MS. GRAY: T-a-n-a, G-r-a-y.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. And would you be

sworn, please?

(Witness sworn.)

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

WHEREUPON:

T A N A G R A Y,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Gray

Q. I'm one of the owners of Modern Builders

Industrial Concrete Company, and we're a 50-year-old

construction business located about a half a mile or so

from the CDT Landfill.

We've been at that location for about 25 years. As a

side, I never have noticed any odors coming from the CDT

Landfill. However, our company does make use of the

landfill. We are not one of the largest users. We are

an occasional regular user. We're probably very similar

to lots of users in our category.

We've done business with the

Geiss family for many,

many years, and they have enjoy a fine reputation in the

community.

I'm wondering what we're going to do if this is denied

because it will be more money for us to find some place

else to go. I'm not even sure where we'd go.

It's apparent that there is no arsenal landfill yet.

From what I read in the paper, it may be a long time

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

off. So that means the bottom line for us it would be

more dollars and, of course, finally to the consumer.

Whoever we're doing business with will have to raise the

price of our projects, and just as a member of the

general public, aside from the fact that I'm in the

construction business, I haven't seen anything that I am

aware of in the newspaper that, in my opinion, from what

I can read that they're making an unreasonable request

for what they asked for in their expansion.

So I hope that you will consider my comments, and, for

the record, we are in support of this request being

granted.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Are there any

questions?

MS. ANGELO: Yes. Thank you.

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Angelo

Q. It's Ms. Gray?

A. Right.

Q. And did you provide any testimony or comment in

the proceeding so far?

A. We sent a letter in the prior effort.

Q. So there's a letter in the record?

A. There's a letter in the record. There should be,

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

right.

Q. What does Modern Builders Industrial Concrete

Company do?

A. We are a general construction firm, and we do --

we've been doing business in the greater Joliet area for

many, many years, 50 years.

Q. And so the waste for which you're a customer of

the landfill is construction debris?

A. Right. Probably things like broken up pieces of

concrete and demolition-type things, right.

Q. And you indicated you're a half mile from CDT?

A. Right, about.

Q. What's your address?

A. 1026

Moen Avenue.

Q. Can you tell me, because I'm not that familiar

with the area, what direction that is?

A. That would be to the east.

Q. Have you done any investigation of the

environmental compliance status of the landfill?

A. No, I have not. As I said before, it's just what

I've read in the newspaper.

Q. And have you ever observed the landfill from the

residential area across I-80?

A. Yes, I have, and it doesn't seem to me to be

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

anything unusual. I've been in other areas where there

are landfills, and I don't think this landfill looks too

different than any other landfill.

Q. Thank you very much.

A. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Ms. Harvey, do you have

any questions?

MS. HARVEY: I don't have any questions.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. Okay. The

man in the red tie and then stripes and then the man in

the vest.

MR. SMITH: Hi. My name is Jeff Smith, and I

represent the Industrial Developments International, the

owners of Rock Run Business Park.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay, can we please have

you sworn in?

(Witness sworn.)

WHEREUPON:

J E F

F S M I T H,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr. Smith

Q. IDI is very concerned with the effect that this

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

landfill expansion is going to have on our ability to

make this park that we currently have about a $20 million

investment in successful.

I personally have been involved in three of the parks

that were mentioned by the CDT consultant. One being

Mallard Lake Business Park. I was the project manager on

that park from about 1989 to 1997 when I was working for

Opus.

The last two years, I've been involved very heavily in

Turnberry International Business Park, which is about,

oh, let's say, a mile, and a quarter of a mile to a half

as the crow flies from the Mallard Lake Business Park

and we also have land and done many developments in Carol

Stream, Carol Point, which is probably about two miles

from a landfill, and what I can tell you from our

experience and what I have seen personally is that the

landfill adjacent to a business park just has a

catastrophic effect on its ability to be successful, and

we're very concerned about it.

We have a $20 million investment today. That

investment is going to probably grow to about $125 to

$150 million dollars over the next one to ten years, and

that's what I wanted to let you know.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Are there any

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

questions?

MS. HARVEY: I have a couple of questions.

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Harvey

Q. Mr. Smith was it? I'm sorry.

A. Yes.

Q. Did you testify at the hearing?

A. I did not testify. We had sent letters, a few

letters when we heard about it.

Q. So you submitted written copies?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you involved with Rock Run or with the

company that develops Rock Run at the time that the

property near the CDT Landfill was purchased?

A. No, I was not.

MS. HARVEY: I don't have anything else.

R E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Angelo

Q. Do you know, Mr. Smith, when the city initially

approved the development of Rock Run Business Park?

A. It was in -- a lot of the discussions were

happening in 1989. I believe the park was finally

purchased in December

of '89. So it was basically 1990 when we started the

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

park.

Q. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you for that.

The man in the stripe sweater, do you want to come

up?

MR. POLCYN: Good morning. My name is Patrick

Polcyn, P-o-l-c-y-n. I'm the vice-president of

Rendels,

Incorporated business that's been in existence in Joliet

not owned by our family for 70 years, but it's been in

Joliet for 70 years.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Can we have you

sworn in before you testify?

(Witness sworn.)

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

WHEREUPON:

P A T R I C K P O L C Y N,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Polcyn

Q. I'd like to start off by saying that I've known

the Geiss family for my entire life, grown up with Dan,

have known Cal for years. I don't know anyone that's any

harder working and honest in what they do and have been

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

that way their entire lives.

Secondly, I'd like to say that I would consider it an

insult to the Pollution Control Board and the

Environmental Protection Agency to even insinuate that at

this point in time after this landfill being in existence

for as long as it's been, five or seven or eight years,

that there would be any indication that anything that

they have done has not been proper nor would they be

capable of carrying out the mission that they have into

the future for any period of time.

If I thought that, I just can't fathom that anything

they've done has not been proper to date, number one.

Number two, to do anything to stifle competition and

increase cost to the citizens of Joliet or the county I

see it as a political game that we as taxpayers and

citizens again are going to lose at.

The point being brought that the waste people are now

national

publically-owned conglomerate companies, and we

have people that are the salt of the earth that have

given their life to this community for this effort.

It's typical of the bureaucracy and the games that

these big companies play that we pay for in the end.

I've been to the landfill. I've been on top of the

landfill. I've dumped garbage at the landfill.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

When you talk about smell, odor, dust, the gravel

pit -- I have a business on Route 53 which is south of

Joliet which was across from Material Service, and that

was a -- not Material Service, Vulcan Gravel Pit, and the

dust and the dirt that came out of that gravel pit were

phenomenal, enormous.

When the wind came out of the south, it literally

picked the dust up and placed it on my trucks. I fought

that battle for years and never did win it. The amount

of dust that has to come out of the gravel pit has to be

much greater than is ever generated by the landfill.

In terms of odor, if anyone has been down that road

and smelled the Rendering Plant that's right at the

corner of the gravel pit, that smell -- that smell is

atrocious. It's rot. It's stench. It's decay.

Their garbage is covered up every day with dirt. I

just don't see -- I just don't see them being singled out

as a problem there. It's not fair. The road is used by

hundreds of different kinds of trucks; Rendering trucks,

gravel trucks, dump trucks, general public.

Again, you know, it just doesn't all make sense to me

that this is even an issue. Where are we going to dump

our garbage? They're fighting over the landfill down in

Elwood. I live in

Elwood. Okay?

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

We have to have landfills. We have to have places to

dump our garbage, and we need to sit -- we need to keep

the cost down.

To me, it's a no-

brainer. I don't know why we even

have to have this problem. These are credible

individuals that have -- you've heard the testimony that

they're, you know, great people, and anything that

they've done wrong, if there's anything they've done

wrong, and I don't know that they have, but it's all been

monitored and checked by people that get paid to do that,

and it's an insult to suggest that anything they do

beyond this point or previous to this point was wrong

because they've literally jumped through hoops to do

everything I know that they have to do to be right.

None of my discussion, none of my testimony was ever

discussed. They did not ask me to come here, and for the

record, I do have a letter in there that I sent that said

that I support them in the past and I'll continue to do

so.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Are there any questions?

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Angelo

Q. Mr.

Polcyn?

A. Polcyn.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

Q. You say you live in

Elwood?

A. I live in

Elwood, 19316 Timber Drive.

Q. And how far is that from the landfill?

A. I'm probably southwest -- no, southeast of the

landfill by the way the crow flies ten miles maybe.

Q. But it's your business that uses the landfill as a

customer of the landfill?

A. This is -- they've collected our garbage in our

home and our business. They've been -- they've done our

disposal work forever.

Q. What kind of business do you have?

A. We have a -- I'm the light duty or the -- excuse

me, the medium duty commercial GMC truck dealer in

Joliet, and we have several body shops, leasing company,

and other things.

Q. So is it the CDT hauling company then that is --

hauling operation that has collected your waste?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you ever done any investigation of the

environmental compliance status of the landfill?

A. No, I didn't do that.

Q. Do you know that the landfill was fined by the

Pollution Control Board for expanding its operations in

violation of the Environmental Protection Act?

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

A. I'm not aware of that, ma'am, and as far as I'm

concerned, that's -- the boards that take care of that,

that's their job, and if there was a fine, they paid it.

That -- you know, their dues are paid.

Q. So you don't think that should have any impact on

this proceeding?

A. Again, I'm not going to get into all those issues

with you. I'm speaking as a concerned citizen in support

of the whole issue.

Q. Do you know if the problem that was identified in

that enforcement case has been corrected?

A. Ma'am, I don't know the specifics in that. I

really don't.

Q. You said that the dust and dirt from a gravel pit

that you're familiar with has to be much greater than

that from the landfill?

A. Absolutely.

Q. Have you done any studies or analysis to determine

that that has to be the case?

A. The reason I say that is I've -- we've had a truck

lot that was across the street from Vulcan Material for

probably 20 years, and I -- the trucks, not only was the

exterior of the truck covered with dust on a daily basis,

the dust would permeate under the hood into the air vents

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

and settle literally everywhere on those trucks, and if I

washed them one day, two days later I could expect to

have to wash them again.

If I didn't open the hood and spray under the hood

once a week, if someone were to go there, open the hood,

and look at the -- check the engine out, which they do

when they buy a truck, they'd think the truck was five

years old because of the amount of dust.

The debris at the landfill is covered every day with

hard clay, and soft moist clay does not blow. Gravel

dust does. The wind will pick up gravel dust like any

part of dust in your house and carry it for miles.

Q. What's your basis for believing that this -- that

the waste is covered with soft, moist clay?

A. Well, I've been up there. I don't know exactly

what it is, but they have to cover it every day.

Q. Again, what's your basis for believing that it's

covered with soft, moist clay?

A. I've been up there.

Q. Every day you've seen --

A. Of course not every day --

Q. -- them cover it with --

A. -- but I've been up there, you know.

Q. Have you observed the landfill from the

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

residential area across I-80?

A. Other than driving that way, not really.

Q. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Ms. Harvey, do you have

anything?

MS. HARVEY: I don't have any questions.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, Mr.

Polcyn.

MR. POLCYN: Thank you.

MR. LACIAK: My name is John

Laciak.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Can we have you

sworn in?

MR. LACIAK: That would be great.

(Witness sworn.)

THE REPORTER: Sir, could you

spell your last name for me?

MR. LACIAK: For the record, the

last name is spelled

L-a-c-

i-a-k.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

WHEREUPON:

J O H N L A C I A K,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Laciak

Q. I've been a resident of Joliet for several years

residing at 1111 Terra Court. In addition to that, I am

a member of the Transportation Lawyers Association

practicing before the Surface Transportation Board of the

U.S. Department of Transportation.

What I am going to read into the record this morning

is simply facts that have been reported by the news

media.

The vote by the city council not to expand the present

landfill site is contrary to the study and

recommendations of their own consultants.

It is contrary to the recommendations of the city

management. It has immediately cost --

MS. ANGELO: Madam Hearing Officer, I'm sorry

to interject, but I understand your ruling as to the

scope of the testimony that you allow people to give, but

my understanding is that this is basically reading news

reports into the record of the board, and I question

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

whether that is a valuable use of record space whether or

not the board is entitled to consider it or not consider

it.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Harvey?

MS. HARVEY: Well, I'm not sure we can tell at

this point whether his comment is any more or less

valuable than anybody else who might want to make a

comment.

I don't have any knowledge of what he's actually

reading from. So I can't address that issue.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr.

Laciak, is it

possible for you to summarize in your own words the

information you wish to provide for the board?

MR. LACIAK: No, ma'am, because I'm going to

dwell or hit the issue of lost tax revenue and what it's

going to cost us as taxpayers.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.

BY MR. LACIAK:

Q. And I'm going to do that quickly by saying that

the board's decision has cost us $400,000 immediately

under the current site provisions and agreements.

The statement by the city council that the loss

revenue is not important in comparison to the gambling

revenue and tax revenue is irresponsible and a deliberate

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

attempt at spin control of direct attention from the real

issues.

The one short-term benefit that the city council

alluded to is a reduction of traffic was immediately

given away by the approval of construction of a trucking

terminal for U.S. Holland.

While I don't know the exact extent of the trucking

terminal, it will bring larger and heavier trucks and the

operations will probably be conducted on a 24 hour, seven

day a week basis.

My concern as a citizen is what happens if the current

site is not allowed to expand and it will close in

October of '98. While the city council denies this, it

offers no reports or

documentations to the contrary.

So where is the rubbish going to go if it closes in

'98? Will County's present alternative site is in

litigation, and even if it weren't, it wouldn't be

ready.

Will County has provided no assurances or contracts

that that site will be developed by Waste Management or

anyone else. Waste Management's current financial status

is under assault by its own stockholders and furthermore

it has not been able to retain the services of the

president of that company on a continuing basis for any

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

period of time.

Will County has an agreement with a

downstate

landfill, but I'm not aware of any assurances or contract

that requires them to accept rubbish from the county or

the city.

It is has been reported that disposal fees and

transportation costs of that

downstate site will exceed

current annual costs of the current site between 300,000

to $1.2 million.

The taxpayers of Joliet will, therefore, in the first

year of operation of the

downstate landfill stand to lose

tax revenues of between 800,000 to 1.6 million. So my

question here so is how is the city going to make up this

shortfall because the council is already on record as

saying they're not going to raise my property taxes.

So here's some interesting suggestions. Will they

have increased revenue from the gambling boats? That's

speculative. Raise taxes on hotels, businesses, gambling

boats, raise city fees, raise the sales tax? Maybe

they'll even decide to take back the $5.00 credit on the

water bills to pay for this.

I'm here to ask the board to renew the facts and

decide whether or not the city council's decision was in

the public interest of all the cities, of Joliet and Will

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

County, and I think you'll find it's not, and you should

overturn it.

THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm going to allow his

testimony.

Did you have any questions?

MS. ANGELO: Yes, I do. Just a moment.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Angelo

Q. Mr.

Laciak, you indicated you live on Terra Court?

A. Correct.

Q. Can you describe where that is in relationship to

the landfill?

A. About ten miles to the north, I believe.

Q. Are you related to

T'rese Laciak?

A. Yes.

Q. And what's your relationship with her?

A. I'm her husband.

Q. And did she provide evidence as an expert witness

in the proceeding before the county board?

A. I don't have access to that, but I believe so.

Q. Are you familiar with the city's economic

investment in the Rock Run Business Park?

A. I didn't testify to that. I'm not familiar with

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

it, and let me say this. I'm going to draw the analogy

of the O'Hare situation. Who was there first?

MS. ANGELO: Move to strike as unresponsive.

THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm going to allow it

because he's allowed to make statements on the record.

So he could just come back up and state it later if he

wished to.

BY MS. ANGELO:

Q. Have you observed the landfill from the area

across I-80, the residential area across I-80?

A. No, ma'am.

Q. And have you made -- have you made any analysis of

the finances of the city and the revenue streams

available to the city?

A. No, ma'am. I told you my testimony was based on

reports of the news media.

Q. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Anything further, Ms.

Harvey?

MS. HARVEY: I have one question.

R E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Harvey

Q. Mr.

Laciak, did you appear today at the request of

either the

Geiss family or their attorneys?

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

A. No.

Q. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

Is there anyone else who is not available later who

wishes to testify now?

Sir, please state your name and spell it for the

record.

MR. WUNDERLICH: My name is Robert

Wunderlich,

W-u-n-d-e-r-l-

i-c-h. I live at 1220 Campbell Street in

Joliet.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Can we swear you,

please?

(Witness sworn.)

WHEREUPON:

R O B E R T W U N D E R L I C H,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Wunderlich

Q. First off, I'd like to state that I'm a taxpayer,

which I'm sure most of us are in this building. I've

been to CDT Landfill. I've been to the gravel pit

adjoining it. I've been to the Rendering Plant at the

opposite end of the road.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

I would rather spend most of my time in the landfill

because there's less dust and less smell. I've gone down

the road in front of the landfill that the employees of

CDT take their water truck many times a day and wet down

the road so that the dust in front of their property is

not flying all over the air.

They don't seem to do that in front of the gravel pit,

and there's no barrier that I can see in front of the

Rendering Plant. I've done some construction work. I'm

in the construction business. I'm the president of

Wunderlich Construction Company in Joliet.

I built a house in the subdivision -- at the College

Park subdivision and that same day I had smells come from

the south, and they were bad smells, while I was working

on a house in the subdivision. I also took some of my

debris in my dump truck to the landfill.

Well, the landfill is not where the smells were coming

from. The landfill is not where the dust was coming

from. I've been doing business with the members of CDT

Landfill since they've started in business and with the

landfills or dumps before that on the same road.

CDT is an excellent landfill. They go by the book,

and when they go by the book, they look for another book

to go by. In my opinion, I would wholeheartedly support

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

their expansion.

I've got one more hat that I wear. I'm a senior board

member at Joliet Junior College, which is adjacent to the

landfill. I'm not sure if there was a letter sent. I

think there may have been.

The college, at that time, did not support or oppose

the expansion. We took a neutral stand on that because

the college felt that there would be no immediate impact

or foreseeable impact on Joliet Junior College because of

the landfill expansion.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Are there

questions?

MS. ANGELO: Thank you

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Angelo

Q. Mr.

Wunderlich, are you speaking on behalf of

Joliet Junior College today?

A. No, I'm not. I'm speaking on behalf that at the

time I was the chairman of the board, and I'm a senior

board member right now. I just wanted to clarify the

record of what happened.

Q. The board has not authorized you to make a

statement on their behalf?

A. No.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

Q. And when you say you built a house, that's not

your own home?

A. No, it's not.

Q. Okay. Where is your home located in relationship

to the landfill?

A. Probably two and a half miles to the northeast.

Q. You indicated that you had visited a gravel pit

adjacent to the landfill. Is that east or west of the

landfill?

A. Directly east.

Q. Directly east. And that you commented on the

landfill employees wetting down the road?

A. Yes, they do.

Q. Is this the road in front of the landfill?

A. Yes. It's Mound Road in front of the landfill,

yes.

Q. Okay. But that road is not similarly wetted down

in front of the other facilities along Mound Road?

A. No, it is not.

Q. Do the trucks that come into the landfill,

however, have to drive down the remainder of Mound Road

to get to the landfill?

A. In my experience in my own truck and seeing other

trucks, they have to go through the wet road several

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

hundred yards before they get to the entrance of the

landfill from either direction.

Q. My question though, Mr.

Wunderlich, is in order to

get to the area in front of the landfill, those trucks

have to traverse an area of gravel road that is in front

of these other facilities that have not been wetted down;

is that correct?

A. Well, it's more gravel if you come from the east.

It's more of a blacktop-type muddy gravel if you come

from the west.

Q. All right. But it's true, is it not, that in

order to get to that area to the road in front of the

landfill, those trucks --

A. Oh, yes.

Q. -- have to go down that road?

A. Yes.

Q. That road that has not been wetted down?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you done any environmental investigation of

the -- are you familiar with any environmental

investigation done of the landfill operations?

A. No, I'm not.

Q. Did you know that the landfill was fined by the

Pollution Control Board for expanding its operation in

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

violation of the Environmental Protection Act?

A. No. I was not.

Q. Are you aware of any action that they have taken

to correct the condition that lead to that violation?

A. No.

Q. Thank you very much.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Ms. Harvey?

MS. HARVEY: I have one question.

R E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Harvey

Q. Mr.

Wunderlich, the sand and gravel operation that

you referred to, is that owned by CDT?

A. No. It's Joliet Sand and Gravel.

Q. Okay. Thanks very much?

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, Mr.

Wunderlich.

Is there anyone else? I believe there were two

people. Sir, yes.

MR. HAMPTON: My name is Boyd Hampton, B-o-y-d,

H-a-m-p-t-o-n.

(Witness sworn.)

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

WHEREUPON:

B O Y D H A M P T O N,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr. Hampton

Q. I am a small business owner, and I came to work

with CDT Landfill probably late April, and I've been

welcomed in as somewhat of a family member, and I feel

that way.

I do business with them trying to keep their trucks

clean. I wash their trucks and some of the other

equipment. I am in favor of this landfill expansion

being a small business person. That's a percentage of my

income. I also spend my money in the Will County area,

and I am a taxpayer for Will County.

Like I said, I do spend my money in Will County. So

small business is where it's at here in Will County.

Them being a small business, starting out as a small

business, I relate with them and they respect me for

that.

I hope to be here in the years to come. If CDT

Landfill is going to be there, it's going to be a

percentage of my income, and I appreciate that.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

THE HEARING OFFICER: Are there any questions?

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Angelo

Q. Mr. Hampton, where do you live?

A. I live in Lockport, Illinois.

Q. And how far is that from the landfill?

A. Approximately, ten to 15 miles.

Q. And where is your business located?

A. My business is located out of the house.

Q. So your business is located in Lockport as well?

A. Correct.

Q. And that's where you do the service for the

landfill?

A. Oh, no. It's a mobile unit. It's a cleaning

company. I power wash and clean homes and businesses,

equipment, walks.

Q. So you provide your service at the landfill?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. Have you done any environmental

investigation of the compliance status of the landfill?

A. I have not. I learn a little bit more every day

as I go there. They're more than open to let me know

what's going on. They're not hiding anything.

Q. Did you know that the landfill was fined by the

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

Pollution Control Board for expanding its operation in

violation of the Environmental Protection Act?

A. No, I was not.

Q. And do you know whether they have corrected the

condition that led to that violation?

A. I'm sure if it was presented to them to correct

it, I'm sure they would.

Q. But you don't know yourself whether it was or not?

A. I do not know, no.

Q. And have you ever observed the landfill from the

residential area across I-80?

A. That I have. I've cleaned several homes in the

College Park area. I also have a friend that lives on

the far east side right across from the college, and at

no time has he mentioned any smell, and cleaning the

homes, it was probably late April, I cleaned several

homes over there, and I didn't notice the smell.

I do business on Mound Road. The businesses on Mound

Road have been there for 75 years. It's beyond me --

when I bought my house, I looked at the surrounding areas

where I was going to raise my kids and reside.

These people must have come from Chicago. I'm not

saying anything about Chicago residents at all, but Mound

Road is going to be there. The businesses have been

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

there. There's very reputable businesses there and...

Q. So you think these people should have known better

than to buy their homes there?

THE HEARING OFFICER: You need to make a

statement. The court reporter can't record gestures.

MR. HAMPTON: Gestures.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. My personal opinion, I wouldn't have bought

there.

BY MS. ANGELO:

Q. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Is there anything

further?

MS. HARVEY: I don't have any questions.

MR. HAMPTON: Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, Mr. Hampton.

In the back, there was a woman and a man.

MR. FROST: Good morning.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Hi.

MR. FROST: My name is Steven Frost,

F-r-o-s-t. I live at 3219 Cathy Drive in the Cambridge

subdivision.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. We need to swear

you in.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

(Witness sworn.)

WHEREUPON:

S T E V E N F R O S T,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr. Frost

Q. I bought in the subdivision in March of 1990. Our

house was built and we moved in

in February of 1991.

When we purchased the house back in 1990, the

corporation which -- from which we built it had a real

estate -- some real estate people working for them

selling their properties.

At that point in time, they had told us that the

landfill would be closing in X amount of years, that

being in the five to six year range. That was the life

expectancy of the landfill.

Currently now, I'm here today. I have nothing against

the Geiss family whatsoever. I firmly believe that they

are extremely reputable for their business and their

doings, but I can testify today that the odors and the

smells that come from the area south of Interstate 80 at

times our families cannot be outside whatsoever. We have

to go inside the house and turn the air conditioner on.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

It's really terrible.

There's been family doings that we've had to bring

inside because we couldn't be outside with our family

get-togethers. In the last two weeks, I believe there

was one instance one evening while driving down

Interstate 80 and headed home as soon as we came across

the railroad trestle that's there headed west towards

Houbolt Road to get off, the stench was unbearable. It

was unbearable all the way to the house, and we spent

that evening in the house also.

Like I said, whenever we have a southeast wind or we

have no wind whatsoever on a calm day, it seems to be

that the odor from south of Interstate 80 is very

noticeable to the residents of the community.

My personal feelings if they move this more to the

west of their current location, a south or a southern

breeze will effect the residents of that subdivision

also. That's all I've got to say.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Questions?

MS. HARVEY: Yes, I have a couple.

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Harvey

Q. Mr. Frost, did you testify or submit a comment in

the proceedings before the city?

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

A. No, I have not.

Q. Okay. Did anyone from CDT Landfill ever tell you

that the landfill was going to close at the time that you

brought your house or any time after that?

A. No, they did not.

Q. Have you ever conducted any investigation to

determine if the odor that you've testified to is coming

from the landfill?

A. Have I, no.

Q. Okay. Do you know if CDT Landfill has ever

received any citation from any governmental enforcement

agency for odor problems?

A. I haven't read any information on that at all.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Ms. Angelo?

R E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Angelo

Q. Mr. Frost, did you sign a petition about the

landfill?

A. Yes, we did.

Q. And do you know whether that petition was

submitted to the record in the proceeding here?

A. I believe that it was, yes.

Q. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Anything further? Thank

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

you, Mr. Frost.

Ma'am, please come up.

Okay. Can we hold off just a second. Our court

reporter needs to change paper. Let's take five minutes.

(Break taken.)

THE HEARING OFFICER: We're going to go ahead

and go back on the record, and we have someone who's

prepared to testify. So if you could state your name and

spell it for our court reporter, please.

MS. DIESING: Okay. My name is Heather

Diesing, D-i-e-s-i-n-g.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. And would you be

sworn?

MS. DIESING: Sure.

(Witness sworn.)

WHEREUPON:

H E A T H E R D I E S I N G,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms.

Diesing

Q. Okay. I also live in the Cambridge subdivision

that's directly north of the landfill at 3230 Cathy

Drive. My husband and I bought our house in July of

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

1994, and at no time did we know that there was a

landfill there.

We weren't told by our

realtor, the seller's

realtor,

the people that owned the house, and until we smelled it

for the first time did we investigate a little bit and

found out that that's what it was, indeed, it was a

landfill.

I just want to address two issues, one being the odor

and the dust. I have a little rebuttal to Mr.

Olson

(sic) who talked earlier that had the truck business that

said, you know, you don't -- that dust has got to be

worse where he had his business when you lifted the truck

hoods and everything, and unless he's lived a week in my

house, he doesn't know what the dust and odor is.

My daughter is two. She plays outside, and I also

have to wash her toys off constantly. We have a pool

that's very high maintenance due to the dust, and I'm

kind of fed up with it, and also we put our house on the

market last September, and we had two prospective buyers,

but once they found that there was a landfill that would

be in their backyard that they look after -- if you stand

on our deck, you can see trucks and you can see

a landfill, they've decided not to buy our house, and the

other issue I just want to address was the market value.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

There's a lot of young families like ourselves who

only work in the area for three to five years and then we

get a promotion or transfer someplace else, and we're

just concerned that we won't have enough equity built up

in our house that when we turn to sell, the appreciation

is not going to be as great as it would be in some other

subdivision where they wouldn't smell or see the effects

of the landfill. So that was all I wanted to say.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Are there questions?

MS. HARVEY: I have just a couple questions.

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Harvey

Q. Is it

Diesing?

A. D-i-e-s-i-n-g, Diesing.

Q. Okay. I want to be certain I'm saying it right.

Did you testify or file a comment in the proceedings

before the city?

A. I signed a petition.

Q. Okay. And you said that you bought your house in

July of '94?

A. Yes.

Q. And that you didn't know that there was a landfill

there?

A. We did not know. We thought that -- honestly, we

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

thought the trucks there were building a new subdivision

and like a month and a half after we had lived there, we

finally found out that that was, indeed, a landfill.

Q. So when you looked at the house, you didn't notice

landfill activity or notice any smell?

A. No, we did not.

Q. Have you done any kind of investigation to

determine if that smell that you smell at your home is

coming from the landfill?

A. No, I have not done any investigating.

Q. And, similarly, have you done any investigation to

determine if the dust that you have is coming from the

landfill?

A. No, I have not.

Q. Okay. I don't have anything else.

A. Okay.

MS. ANGELO: I have one question.

R E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Angelo

Q. Ms.

Diesing?

A. Yes.

Q. You said you thought the trucks there were

building a new subdivision?

A. Right.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

Q. Were these trucks that you observed operating in

the area that you now know to be the landfill?

A. Correct.

Q. So you did see truck activity up there?

A. Yes, we did.

Q. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

MS. DIESING: Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Sir, there's someone

who's -- you can be next.

MR. DOOLAN: Good morning. My name is Thomas

Doolan, D-o-o-l-a-n.

THE HEARING OFFICER: And will you please be

sworn by the court reporter?

(Witness sworn.)

WHEREUPON:

T H O M A S D O

O L A N,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Doolan

Q. I represent

Alessio & Sons Company. We're an

excavating contractor located here in

Rockdale,

Illinois. We're about, oh, three-quarters of a mile to

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

the east of the landfill.

I also live in

Channahon, Illinois, at 24427 Edwin

Drive. That's located at Route 6 and I-55. That's about

four miles to the west of the landfill.

Alessio & Sons Company, a great deal of our work comes

from environmental consulting engineers. We're often

asked to bid on projects requiring excavation,

transportation, and the disposal of

nonhazardous special

waste petroleum contaminated soils.

The disposal facility that we recommend is often taken

into consideration by the environmental consultants as to

its liability of their client, and if we're working with

an environmental consultant we haven't worked with in the

past, they often ask us to arrange a tour or at least get

some information on the landfill.

We've never had an environmental consulting company

deny our recommendations of CDT Landfill, and we feel

that CDT Landfill's responsible commitment to

environmental safety, their competitive pricing, and the

shrinking available disposal capacity for solid waste in

Illinois is why we support the expansion. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Are there any

questions?

MS. ANGELO: Thank you.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Angelo

Q. Mr. -- it's

Doolan?

A. Doolan, yes.

Q. Did you submit any comments or testimony in the

proceeding that's before the city?

A. I provided a letter.

Q. You provided a letter?

A. Yeah.

Q. And you indicated that your company is

Alessio

Excavating Company?

A. It's

Alessio & Sons Company.

Q. And Sons Company?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And what does that company do?

A. We're an excavating contractor.

Q. So you actually do the excavation?

A. Correct.

Q. And --

A. We do underground storage tank removals.

Q. I see.

A. That type of work.

Q. Okay. So you are using --

A. Road building.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

Q. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off.

A. That's all right.

Q. You're using the landfill then for disposal of the

contaminated soils that you excavate?

A. Petroleum contaminated soils, yes.

Q. Have you yourself done any investigation of the

environmental status or the compliance status of the

landfill?

A. No.

Q. Did you know that the landfill was fined by the

Pollution Control Board for expanding its operation in

violation of the Environmental Protection Act?

A. Yes, recently, yes.

Q. You said yes recently?

A. I found that information out, yes.

Q. And how did you find that out?

A. By talking to Danny

Geiss. I found that

information by talking to the owner.

Q. And when did you learn that?

A. I just learned that just recently.

Q. Can you give me a time frame?

A. As we were talking just now. I knew there was a

violation. I didn't know exactly what it was all about.

Q. Okay. So you learned about it from him today?

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know whether the circumstance for which the

company was fined has been corrected?

A. Yes, it has as far as I know. I mean, that's what

I was told.

Q. What were you told?

A. That it had been corrected.

Q. Are you aware that the violation was for -- was

based on the fact that the landfill was too high?

A. Yes.

Q. What do you understand that they did to correct

that?

A. My understanding was the trenches surrounding the

landfill and that was because the permit -- I'm not

completely sure on this. What I was told was that it was

-- the elevation was brought down to the correct level,

I believe.

Q. Are you aware that they were -- they received

subsequent citations for

overheight violations after the

initial one for which they were found guilty?

A. No, I wasn't.

MS. HARVEY: Your Honor -- Madam Hearing

Officer, just for the record, I'd ask if we're going to

have a lot more discussion about violations if counsel

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

could provide us with a record cite or some kind of

indication of which citation she's referring to.

MS. ANGELO: The discussion of violations is in

the record. I'm taking it straight from their own --

MS. HARVEY: I'm not challenging that's in the

record. I'd like to know which specific violation she's

discussing.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Are you -- can you give

us a record cite to where they're found in the record?

MS. ANGELO: My questions to Mr.

Doolan relate

to what he knows.

THE HEARING OFFICER: I understand.

MS. ANGELO: So I will be happy to provide a

record cite at some point if

CDT's lawyers are unable to

find it in their own application.

MS. HARVEY: I would like the record --

MS. ANGELO: But it has not -- it's not

relevant, it seems to me, to my questions to Mr.

Doolan

about what he knows.

THE HEARING OFFICER: I agree with you that

they are not relevant to your questions to Mr.

Doolan.

If you could provide that cite by the end of the day --

MS. ANGELO: I'd be delighted.

THE HEARING OFFICER: -- that would be

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

appreciated.

BY MS. ANGELO:

Q. I think your last answer was that you weren't

aware of any further violations --

A. Any other violation.

Q. Have you ever observed the landfill from the

residential area across I-80?

A. Yes, I have. My in-laws live there.

Q. Your -- I'm sorry. Your in-laws?

A. My in-laws live there.

Q. And what's their address?

A. I couldn't tell you.

Q. You Couldn't tell me. What street do they live

on?

A. It's Christine Court, I believe.

Q. Christine Court?

A. It's the third street in. That's all. I never

paid attention.

Q. Do you know whether your in-laws have provided any

comment to the city with regard to the landfill in

connection with this proceeding?

A. No, they haven't.

MS. HARVEY: I'd object on the grounds of

relevance as to what he's talking about. What his

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

in-laws did or didn't provide isn't really relevant to

his comments today.

THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm going to allow it.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. No, they haven't.

BY MS. ANGELO:

Q. They have not?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. Thank you very much?

THE HEARING OFFICER: Ms. Harvey, did you have

any questions?

MS. HARVEY: No, I don't.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

MS. HARVEY: I would like to state for the

record, though, that my intent in asking for record

citations is not because we are unable to find the

location, but for the board's convenience in reviewing

the transcript.

THE HEARING OFFICER: I understand that, and we

will have it by the end of the day is my understanding.

Sir, please come forward and then the man in the green

jacket.

MR. LARDNER: Okay. My name is John

Lardner,

L-a-r-d-n-e-r.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

(Witness sworn.)

WHEREUPON:

J O H N L A R D N E R,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Lardner

Q. I live at 755 Arlington in

Naperville and I'm a

resident of Will County, and I just want to make two

points. One, I live about a mile and a half from the

Green Valley Landfill, which has just closed recently,

and in the five years that I've lived down there, I

experienced no problems during the operation and closure

of the landfill.

As a matter of fact, in the time that I have lived

there, I've seen subdivisions go in, these are brand new

subdivisions, with new homes less than 150 feet from the

property boundary of the landfill.

Lately, people have expressed to me that they enjoy

seeing the green space there, the open space in the

landfill, rather than more subdivisions in

Naperville.

Second of all, I'm concerned about disposal options in

the area. They're minimal now that Green Valley has

closed and the Joliet Arsenal that I see is coming down

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

the line is still three to five years away from what

people tell me because of the litigation.

I'd kind of like to see a landfill that's already in

operation stay open rather than start a new landfill to

provide disposal capacity for Will County, and also I'd

like to reiterate that competition in the area I think is

good, and to see another operator other than Waste

Management be in the business of disposing of waste in

Will County, I would support that. That's all.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Are there questions?

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Angelo

Q. Mr.

Lardner?

A. Yes.

Q. You indicated that Green Valley was closed?

A. Yes. That landfill closed I think last year.

Q. And you commented that it's nice to see the green

space of the closed landfill, did you not?

A. It's nice to see that -- that landfill is about

three times higher and about three times larger than this

one from what I saw in the newspaper article, and right

now, it's better to see that open space than more

subdivision in my opinion.

Q. And has that landfill now been closed and covered?

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

A. It's been covered. I think they still -- I still

see a little activity up there, but it looks pretty much

like it's been closed.

Q. So it's basically just passive open space now?

A. Right.

Q. Do you have any business relationship with the CDT

Landfill?

A. No, I do not.

Q. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Ms. Harvey?

R E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Harvey

Q. Mr.

Lardner, I just have a couple of questions.

A. Sure.

Q. You testified that you've lived in your home for

how long? I'm sorry.

A. About five years.

Q. And when you bought your home, was the Green

Valley Landfill operating?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you experience any problems while the

landfill was operating?

A. No, I did not.

Q. I don't have any other questions. Thank you.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

A. Okay.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, Mr.

Lardner.

Sir?

MR.

McGUIRE: My name is Paul

McGuire.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Can you spell your last

name, please?

MR.

McGUIRE: M-c-G-u-

i-r-e.

THE HEARING OFFICER: And would you please be

sworn in?

(Witness sworn.)

WHEREUPON:

P A U L M c G U I R E,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

McGuire

Q. I currently live in Manhattan, rural Manhattan

township, the east side of Manhattan. In the last month,

I've moved from New

Lenox where CNA Disposal picked up my

rubbish. That's the business relationship so far. No

monies have ever changed hands between C&A Disposal, CDT

Landfill, and myself. So there's where the checks come

from, my home.

In this past month, I've moved from my home in New

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

Lenox to a home I just built this last summer out in

Manhattan. I spent nearly $200,000 of my own money

building this house. Four hundred feet to the east of me

is a sheep farmer, a mile and a half to the south of me

is a dairy farmer, and two miles is a pig farmer, and I

think it would be hoot for me to go to my neighbors and

say cease and desist your hobbies because I didn't look

around first before I brought my bride into the

neighborhood. She'd have my neck.

So that being said, my business is liquid waste

treatment and chemical treatment of boilers and cooling

systems. I called on a number of the industries down

Mound Road. I've been in many Rendering plants,

slaughterhouses, gravel pits, and I do tour landfill

sites, and I can say in my personal opinion and

experience that CDT Landfill is one of the cleanest

operations in Illinois and Indiana that I've been to.

A number of projects that I've worked on and I've met

-- in my dealings, I've met the

Geiss family mostly out

of curiosity and other things that I'm working on. I

found the

Geiss family and members of CDT Landfill to be

very open and honest, unlike any other facility I've ever

gone to.

If you have a question, the door swings both ways.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

100

Come on in and ask. In fact, when their recycling center

was going up, curiosity, again, I'd like to see it, and

the president of CDT Landfill Danny

Geiss personally

brought me in to show me the workings and the assembly of

the plant.

I was working on a project in the past on composting

materials, and I had some questions and some things I'd

like to work out. At the time, they had a consulting

company from the east coast come in just for training and

to operate a compost facility.

In touring the top of the landfill, I've been to other

composting facilities. They're swarming with flies and

stench. This operation is clean. There wasn't a fly in

the bunch.

Where I live now with sheep and cattle and hogs, there

are flies and there's stink. Down at the end of the row,

you'll have that problem. On the CDT Landfill, you don't

have that problem.

In between is a gravel pit, and I've had to pull over

because I couldn't see front-end loaders and the trucks

coming through. I don't know that they could see me. So

I pulled off into the ditch. It gets so dusty down

there.

In my dealings just on a personal level with the

Geiss

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

101

family, I, like the gentleman who spoke previous to me, I

feel that they have become more like family and friends.

Again, we don't have this business relationship. They're

an asset to the community.

In fact, 30 years ago or 30-some years ago as

entrepreneurs they started their business, and by the

sweat of their brow and breaking their back they have

provided for their families working with other families

providing for their families, money coming from Will

County and distributing back to Will County and not to

the big surrounding areas and other states.

To keep this going I think would be a huge benefit to

the community and many families around. To not let this

expansion to continue I think would be -- that would be a

terrible wrong, not only to the

Geiss family, but the

communities surrounding Joliet and all entities

associated with the landfill.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. Are there

questions?

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Angelo

Q. Mr.

McGuire, what was the reason that you

toured -- you said you visited the top of the landfill.

What was the reason for your visit?

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

102

A. I -- at the time, I was working on -- in liquid

wastes working on bacteria to reduce amounts of nitrogen,

nitrification or anything to do with nitrogen in waters

or soils or whatever the case may be and knowing that

this process is also associated in composting, I had that

ability to go on up and check out what they were doing,

and they were very, very open, very honest.

In fact, I had a short meeting with their consultant

from I believe it was New York at the time. I was

picking up things. So very open, very open. There were

no business dealings there at all, but I learned an awful

lot of things just by actually what CDT Landfill was

paying for. I learned, and I learned things to take on

to other industries.

Q. So you went up there to see the composting

operation?

A. Exactly right, and knowing that there were some

concerns in composting, a lot of concerns across the

country because a lot of composting sites aren't operated

properly. There can be an odor if they're not operated

properly.

So I did drive myself over to the neighborhood across

from Joliet Junior College and toured around that area

and could smell nothing. I've -- like I said, I've been

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

103

into the industries up and down that road. I do business

with those people on the south side of Joliet, other

companies. I used to work for Howard Reeves at Crown

Trade myself.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Mr.

McGuire, you

had made your statement. Do you mind answering some

questions now from the attorney?

MR.

McGUIRE: Okay.

BY MS. ANGELO:

Q. You made a reference to

Mr. Reeves. He's the individual who testified earlier

today?

A. Right.

Q. Okay. You said you visited the area, residential

area, across from the Joliet Junior College.

Do you know what direction the wind was blowing that

day you visited?

A. It was coming from the south.

Q. From the south?

A. From the south.

Q. How did you determine that?

A. Because I was up on top of the landfill, and I

thought this would be a perfect opportunity.

Q. Have you done any environmental investigation to

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

104

determine the compliance status of the landfill?

A. That's not my position, no.

Q. Your interest was the compost operation?

A. Yes.

Q. I think you probably -- I couldn't hear an

answer.

A. Right.

Q. Were you aware that CDT Landfill was fined by the

Pollution Control Board for expanding its operation in

violation of the Environmental Protection Act?

A. That's not my position, no.

Q. I'm sorry. I couldn't hear you.

A. That's not my position, no, only from what you've

said today.

Q. So you didn't know that before?

THE HEARING OFFICER: Was there an answer to

that?

BY THE WITNESS:

A. No.

BY MS. ANGELO:

Q. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Ms. Harvey, do you have

any questions.

MS. HARVEY: I don't have anything. Thank

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

105

you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, Mr.

McGuire.

Is there anyone else who will be unavailable later?

Yes, ma'am.

MS. GILBERT: My name is Becky Gilbert.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Can you spell your

last name.

MS. GILBERT: G-

i-l-b-e-r-t.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. And will you

please be sworn by the court reporter?

(Witness sworn.)

WHEREUPON:

B E C K Y G I L B E R T,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Gilbert

Q. I am currently a student at the College of St.

Francis here in Joliet. I'm an elementary education

major. I am definitely in support of the landfill for

various reasons.

The question that I have that I really don't

understand is we've heard a lot about the financial

situation. I read that in the paper if Joliet would have

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

106

approved the expansion, they would have received a host

fee, probably similar to the host fee that Will County

would be receiving, and it was in the paper $4.2 million

over the life of the landfill, which was suggested at

seven years approximately.

The problem that I have is I just finished some of my

clinical work in the Joliet public schools, and to deny

this landfill and to deny that money, we're denying money

that could have gone to the Joliet public schools in

essence.

I don't know if anybody here has children in the

Joliet public schools, but it's not a place where you'd

want your child educated. They're in dire need of

everything, of resources, of books, paying their

teachers.

I worked in a fourth grade classroom. The classroom

didn't have social studies books. There were fourth

graders who could not read at even a kindergarten or

first grade level, and when I started the year, I started

in September and went to November, and it was the end of

October before the building even received soap for the

children to wash their hands.

So what I don't understand is how we can turn away a

business who provides revenue for our city, thus could be

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

107

turned over into revenue for our children. That's really

all I have to say.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Are there questions?

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Angelo

Q. Ms. Gilbert, do you know whether the school -- the

Joliet public schools have the same -- let me ask it

another way.

Do you know if the Joliet public schools received

funding from the city of Joliet?

A. No.

Q. Do you know whether they have their own separate

taxing district to support them?

A. In the state of Illinois, public schools receive

revenue from property taxes in the state of Illinois,

and so I'm assuming Joliet is the same. They would

receive it from the property taxes and from the city or

their district.

Q. From their own separate taxing district?

A. From the district of Joliet, whatever that

encompasses in the district, if it's property taxes,

businesses.

For example, if you were to go to a community such as

Braidwood which has Commonwealth

Edison, the nuclear

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

108

plant, they receive tax revenues from the nuclear plant.

So in Joliet, they would receive tax revenues from CDT

Landfill.

THE HEARING OFFICER: I think maybe I can help

clarify this because I had the same question.

I believe what we're trying to get at here is if the

tax levy for the city of Joliet is the same as the tax

levy for the schools or if it's a separate levy levied by

a separate body, probably the school board and the city

council?

MS. GILBERT: I'm not sure

BY MS. ANGELO:

Q. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Ms. Harvey.

MS. ANGELO: I don't have anything.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. Is there

anyone further? Sir.

MR. MATUSAK: My name is Mike

Matusak. That's

M-a-t-u-s-a-k.

THE HEARING OFFICER: And can you swear the

witness?

(Witness sworn.)

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

109

WHEREUPON:

M I K E M A T U S A K,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Matusak

Q. I work for a Mack truck dealership that is located

in Illinois. We sell a lot of trucks and trailer

equipment, do maintenance for CDT Landfill.

I have also sent a lot of my customers to CDT Landfill

when they were selling some of their equipment. So I've

been at the site quite a few times, and a lot of the

customers I've sent there have also got back with me and

said how well maintained the road and how clean they keep

the facility.

Most of the time I've been there the road has been

either watered down or the truck was going the opposite

direction when I was coming there.

Also, they've had people out there cleaning the debris

that blew up against the fence and just how well he's

taken care of the place. I've been to a lot of landfills

in my business selling trucks and trailers and that, and

I was very impressed with how neat and clean he keeps the

place.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

110

I've been there about two years with him, and I've got

along with him very well, become a personal friend, and

it seems like he's been very up-front with what he does

because he's very controlled by the Pollution Control

Board. So he has to follow their guidelines, and he's

told me some of the times that he has got into minor

problems and what he's had to do to correct them.

So I think he's very well aware of how to operate his

facility and keep it under the guidelines. He's a very

valued customer of ours, and if the landfill would close,

I'm sure we would lose a valued customer.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. Are there

questions?

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Angelo

Q. Mr.

Matusak, were you aware that the landfill was

fined by the Pollution Control Board for expanding its

operation in violation of the Environmental Protection

Act?

A. No, I wasn't.

Q. When you said you had spoken to Mr.

Geiss about

minor problems that he had gotten into with the state

environmental authorities, do you know what those minor

problems were?

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

111

A. Well, generally, he was telling me just kind of

how the landfill operated and when they would go to their

height level that how it would settle over a period of

time and it pretty much was a guessing game on how much

it would settle, and if it didn't settle to the height

requirement, then he had a problem of where he had to

lower it down.

So I know he told me once that it did not settle down

as far as the rest of the other cells did. So he would

have to take -- you know, spend more money and have to

lower the height of it.

Q. Do you know whether CDT -- let me ask this a

different way. You said you had observed the landfill

watering the road in front of the landfill?

A. Right.

Q. That road extends beyond the landfill to the east

and both again to the west, does it not?

A. Yes.

Q. And the area that CDT was watering was the area

actually in front of the landfill?

A. Right.

Q. Does any truck approaching the landfill have to

take Mound Road either from east of the landfill or from

west of the landfill in order to reach the landfill

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

112

itself?

A. Right.

Q. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Are there any questions,

Ms. Harvey?

MS. HARVEY: I don't have anything.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, Mr.

Matusak.

MR. MATUSAK: Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Is there anyone else?

Yes, ma'am.

MS. PHALEN: My name is Mary

Phalen, P, as in

Peter, h-a-l-e-n. I'm appearing on behalf of Empress

Casino Joliet Corporation.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Please swear the

witness.

(Witness sworn.)

WHEREUPON:

M A R Y P H A L E N,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms.

Phalen

Q. Empress Casino Joliet Corporation is located on

over 300 acres off of Illinois Route 6, less than one

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

113

mile south of the CDT Landfill facility.

Our facility includes a 165,000 square foot pavilion

structure, two gaming vessels, and a 102 room hotel. We

are currently constructing an RV resort or a recreational

vehicle resort on our property consisting of 80 vehicle

slots forecast to open in the spring of 1998.

We are also building, in conjunction with the Mobil

Oil Corporation, a child care center which will cater to

Empress and Mobil employees. The child care center is

also on our property.

On the average day, the Empress Casino Joliet attracts

over 6,000 guests to the Joliet region. For many, this

is their first impression of the area.

We have been successful, particularly with the 1996

opening of our hotel, in attracting out-of-state visitors

from Interstates 55 and 80 to our facility. We hope to

increase this number when our RV resort opens next

spring.

As an entertainment and tourism destination, Empress

Casino Joliet is deeply concerned about the proposed

expansion of the CDT Landfill. The general appearance of

our immediate environment as well as its esthetic

impression is of critical concern in maintaining a safe

rural setting for our operations.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

114

The presence of odors and potential loose blowing soil

and other dust particles originating from a further

expanded and elevated landfill can bring significant

negative effects to both our guests and employees.

We are also very aware of the negative effects which

the proposed CDT Landfill expansion will have on guests

of our soon to open RV resort. With this new amenity, we

are in a position to attract an even greater number of

people from out of state to spend an evening or two in

the Joliet region.

With the out-of-doors environment the resort offers,

the proposed landfill expansion would make a visit to the

area an unpleasurable experience. Our child care center,

which will also open next year, is located directly off

of Route 6 and is the closest structure to the CDT

Landfill.

When operational, it will hold up to 120 children of

Empress and Mobil Oil Corporation employees. The complex

will feature an extensive outdoor play area. We want the

children to be able to experience an enjoyable fresh air

environment during their stay at the center.

The expansion of the landfill would place a

detrimental shadow over any outdoor activities at this

facility.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

115

As a representative of Empress Casino Joliet, I

respectively request that you take into consideration the

reasons for our position to the proposed CDT Landfill

expansion. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Are there any questions?

MS. HARVEY: Yes. I have a couple.

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Harvey

Q. Ms.

Phalen, is that --

A. Phalen.

Q. Am I saying it right?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Did you testify at the hearing in this proceeding?

A. No. Our vice-chairman of the board on behalf of

the board of directors sent a written statement.

Q. Okay. Was the CDT Landfill in operation when the

site was selected for the casino?

A. I believe our site was selected in 1991. So I

guess it would have been, yes.

Q. Okay. Was the casino still in operation -- excuse

me, was the landfill still in operation when the site for

the RV park was selected?

A. Yes.

Q. Was the site -- was the landfill still in

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

116

operation when the site for the child care center was

selected?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell me a little bit about what other

businesses are around the casino?

A. Other businesses around the casino?

Q. Uh-huh.

A. I know there's a trucking facility at

Houbolt

and Route 6, and there are several businesses to the east

on Route 6 of the Empress including Caterpillar.

Q. Would you characterize that area as having an

industrial use?

A. As having an industrial --

Q. Industrial use. I'm sorry.

A. Particularly in the area of Caterpillar, yes.

Q. Have you or anybody on behalf of Empress Casino

done any studies to determine the source of the dust

about which you express concern?

A. Not to the best of my knowledge, no.

Q. Have you or anyone from Empress conducted any

studies to characterize the source of odor which you

testified you may be concerned about?

A. Not to the best of my knowledge, no.

Q. Do you know if Empress has a billboard that's

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

117

located on CDT property?

A. I personally do not know that.

Q. Okay. I don't have anything else.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Does the city have any

questions?

MS. ANGELO: No.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Thank you, Ms.

Phalen. Okay. Are there any other members of the public

who wish to testify at this time? I will ask again

before we adjourn the hearing for the evening session.

Okay.

Then let's go ahead and continue. Does CDT have any

witnesses that they wish to call?

MS. HARVEY: Madam Hearing Officer, in

conjunction and in conformance with the witness statement

that we submitted about a week and a half ago, it is our

position that it's inappropriate to present witnesses on

the sole issue here, which is the manifest weight of the

evidence, and, therefore, we do not have any witnesses to

present.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. The city.

MR. DESHARNAIS: Madam Hearing Officer, at this

time and in conformance with the motion which we

submitted for the board's review, we would ask the board

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

118

to take administrative notice of both the photographs

which we have here today and the ordinances of the city

of Joliet which are referenced in the motion both because

the ordinance is part of the public record, which is

within the general awareness of the city council as well

as the fact that the photographs are of conditions that

are within the awareness of everyone in the city of

Joliet including the city council members.

Furthermore, both the exhibits are supported by

affidavits and we would submit that that is sufficient

foundation for their admission. We, therefore, move the

admission of all those exhibits at this time.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Any objection?

MS. HARVEY: I have a strenuous objection to

any hearing on this motion at all. I received this

motion, which contains about two inches worth of

materials, at 4:20 yesterday.

The motion is directed to the Pollution Control Board,

not to the hearing officer. There is no indication that

there will be any kind of request for a ruling on the

substance of the motion, which is whether or not the

board should take official notice of the documents which

have been attached which it is our position are outside

the record and submit new evidence, but be that as it

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

119

may, we are allowed by the Pollution Control Board rules

seven days to respond to any motion directed to the

board.

We got this less than 16 hours before the hearing was

scheduled to begin. The affidavits on their face based

on the cursory review that I've been able to do indicate

that they have known about some of these documents since

at least December 8th, if not earlier, and we received no

notice nor any indication in their witness statement that

they planned to present this evidence, and I would

suggest that there is simply no motion pending before the

hearing officer on the issue of official notice, which

they have directed the Pollution Control Board.

MR. DESHARNAIS: Madam Hearing Officer, the

board rules allow for hearing officers to make rulings on

evidentiary determinations, and we would submit this is

certainly within your purview.

As to the shortened response times, we had shortened

response times on our own in response to their motions as

well, and it's due to the nature of the time frames that

we're proceeding under.

We sent that motion as soon as it was ready for the

board. In addition, again, I would reiterate that these

are matters which are within the general awareness of the

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

120

city council at the time of their decision, and they

should be admitted as stated in our motion.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Are you planning on

calling any witnesses on this information?

MR. DESHARNAIS: We would call witnesses only

if it was found that the affidavits which were submitted

in support of the motion were found insufficient.

However, we do believe that the affidavits are

sufficient to establish foundation for the exhibits.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Ms. Harvey, did

you have some rebuttal?

MS. HARVEY: Yes. I have a continuing

objection. I just want to stress for the record that CDT

Landfill would be extremely prejudiced if they are not

allowed sufficient opportunity to review and respond to

the substance of the motion to take official notice.

Be that as it may of shortened response times, we had

no indication that this was coming. I got it 20 minutes

or 40 minutes before the close of business yesterday. I

am certainly willing to work to respond as soon as

possible, but this motion is not directed to the hearing

officer.

I have no problem with your authority to rule on

evidentiary matters, but I do have a problem with the

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

121

notice which CDT has been provided, and we haven't had an

opportunity to analyze and review the substance of their

motion.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. At this --

MR. DESHARNAIS: Madam Hearing Officer, I would

just say that before your ruling that we did submit

copies of the photographs to opposing counsel when we

submitted the motion to the board.

THE HEARING OFFICER: At this time, I do

believe that the board's rules do allow me to take notice

of information.

It is my ruling that the ordinances and the

resolutions which are from the city of Joliet are part of

the body of public knowledge which the city council

members had before them when they made their decision,

and so that will be admitted.

As to the photographs, it is my ruling that that

information is new and additional evidence on the site in

criteria. It goes directly to the site in criteria. The

photographs were not before the city council members.

Any objections to my ruling will have to go directly

to the board. Because of the tight time frame, the

objections should be submitted -- you are supposed to

submit them with your briefs, but it would be my

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

122

recommendation to do it as soon as possible ahead of

time.

I am making this ruling today so that if there are any

witnesses who need to be called or any offers of proof

that need to be made we can do that today at the hearing

because there will be no way to reconvene everybody under

the time for the decision deadline.

MS. HARVEY: If we could just let the record

reflect my continuing objection on two grounds. First,

on the ruling on this motion, which is prejudice to CDT

Landfill, and secondly, I will just note a continuing

objection, which I will reassert properly to the ruling

on the ordinances.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.

MR. DESHARNAIS: Madam Hearing Officer, a

question for clarification at this point. Your ruling I

believe regarding the substance of the photographs as

being outside the record, however we would, at this

point, ask you to rule as well on the foundation and

whether or not foundation needs to be established for the

photographs since they are supported by affidavit.

THE HEARING OFFICER: It is my ruling that the

foundation through affidavit was sufficient. The

foundation was sufficient. I felt that the information

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

123

could not be admitted because it's new evidence on the

criteria.

So if the board overrules me, there should not be any

reason to reconvene and call Mr.

Dimond to testify as to

taking the photographs.

MS. HARVEY: For the record, I do have an

objection to what I have seen from the affidavit, whether

or not it establishes -- I have a question, perhaps. I

would like to note a continuing issue since I haven't had

an opportunity to respond to this whether or not the

affidavit is sufficient to establish foundation.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. If you wish to

directly question Mr.

Dimond, he is here, and we could

call him. I will leave that up to you. If you prefer to

just leave your objection as noted and make, you know, a

written objection to the board or if you would like to

make a record for that.

MS. HARVEY: At this time, we will leave it as

noted for the record.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Is there anything

further?

MR. DESHARNAIS: We have a further question of

clarification on your ruling regarding the portions of

the solid waste management plan that were also included

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

124

in the motion.

THE HEARING OFFICER: That -- I apologize.

That was to be admitted as part of the ordinances and

permission before the city of Joliet. The only thing my

ruling was intended to exclude was what I believe you

have marked as Exhibit 1, which were the photographs, and

I guess I have a question whether Exhibit IR was simply

that was part of the record initially or if this is

something new in addition to.

MR. DESHARNAIS: In order to clarify that, that

is something that is already part of the record. It is

simply referenced for purposes of the affidavit.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Then that is also

admitted.

MS. HARVEY: And I would just note a continuing

objection to the admission of the solid waste management

plan.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Is there anything

further at this time from the attorneys?

MS. HARVEY: Madam Hearing Officer, if I

understand your previous order established in the

hearing, we're to reserve closing statements until after

the conclusion of the public participation --

THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

125

MS. HARVEY: -- portion tonight?

Then we don't have anything else.

MR. DESHARNAIS: Madam Hearing Officer, then,

at this time, we will move the admission of the

photographs as an offer of proof.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Well, then, you

may do that, and if you wish to call a witness, you may

do so.

MS. HARVEY: And for the record, I would object

to the offer of proof. The material is irrelevant. So

there's no reason to lay a foundation for irrelevant new

evidence.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Were you planning to do

that as just -- I guess I don't understand what you're

trying to do.

MR. DESHARNAIS: No. I just want to clarify

for the record that we have affirmatively moved the

photographs as an offer of proof given that you've denied

their admission substantively.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Oh, okay.

MR. DESHARNAIS: For the record.

THE HEARING OFFICER: That's fine then. You

have made your offer of proof and you can -- Ms. Harvey

may respond to -- I guess you guys can respond. I

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

126

apologize.

She's going to respond to my ruling on the city's

ordinances, and you may respond to my ruling on the

photographs for the board in writing.

Again, I would just ask you to do that as quickly as

possible. Although it's normal to do it with your

briefs, it would probably be nice to get this cleared up

quickly.

So if we could get it in

in time for the board meeting

being the second Thursday in January next month.

Is there anything further? Are there any other

members of the public who wish to testify before the 6:00

o'clock session or make a statement on the record?

Okay. Then we will go ahead and recess until 6:00

o'clock, and we'll see everyone back then. Thank you.

(Whereupon, the hearing was

adjourned and reconvened at

6:00 o'clock p.m.)

THE HEARING OFFICER: We're going to go on the

record. Can everybody out there hear me? If you can,

I'm not going to use the mike.

Welcome back to the evening session of PCB 98-60 CDT

Landfill Corporation vs. the city of Joliet.

We do have some preliminary matters which the

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

127

attorneys need to take care of, and then we will go right

into the public part of this evening's session. We do

have one woman who's asked to go first because she has to

leave, and then we will just go ahead and take members of

the public as they want to come up.

So will the attorneys go ahead and introduce

themselves again for the members of the public.

MS. HARVEY: Madam Hearing Officer, my name is

Elizabeth Harvey on behalf of the petitioner CDT

Landfill. I am joined by my

co-counsel Park Davis and

John Kobus. I would also like to note for the record

that Mr. Danny

Geiss and Mr. Calvin

Geiss, the owners of

CDT Landfill, are here as well along with Colleen

McFadden, our paralegal.

MS. ANGELO: Madam Hearing Officer, my name is

Percy Angelo. I'm accompanied by Kevin

Desharnais, and

we are representing the City of Joliet.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. And for everyone

out there, I'm

Deb Feinen, and I'm the hearing officer

for the Pollution Control Board.

Once we begin, members of the public can come up to

the microphone. I will ask that you be sworn in, and

then you can go ahead and make whatever statement it is

that you're here to make.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

128

The attorneys may want to ask you a few questions

about your statement. Don't be intimidated. People did

it this morning, and it was fine. If there any problems

or questions, we'll deal with them at that time, and we

should be able to get through that without any problem.

Do you guys want to go ahead with your preliminary

matters?

MS. HARVEY: Madam Hearing Officer, I believe

there are two things that counsel for Joliet and I have

discussed just prior to this hearing re-beginning.

First, is the briefing schedule, which you had

previously established through a hearing officer order.

We have agreed with your indulgence to revise it slightly

to change the due date for

CDT's opening brief to Monday,

December 29th with a corresponding extension for

Joliet's

response brief to January 14th, which I believe is a

Wednesday.

The reply brief due date that currently was --

previously was established of January 20th will remain

the same. So with your indulgence, we would move that it

be modified in that fashion.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Give me just a moment to

find my order, which I thought I had it out, but I had

the other order out.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

129

Could you give me those dates again?

MS. HARVEY: The previous ones or the revised

ones?

THE HEARING OFFICER: The revised ones.

MS. HARVEY: It would have

CDT's brief due on

December 29th, which is a Monday.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.

MS. HARVEY: The City of

Joliet's response will

be on Wednesday, January 14th with

CDT's reply brief to

remain as previously scheduled on January 20th.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. There's no problem

with that, and those dates are acceptable as revised

dates, and I assume you have worked out between

yourselves getting the briefs to

co-counsel as quickly as

possible and mailed as filed for board purposes.

MS. HARVEY: Yeah. I believe your order

previously directed both parties to exchange briefs on

the day that they're due, and I will determine where they

would like the brief sent at that time.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Also, at this

time, I would like to state for the record that we will

allow written public comment until December 31st. So

anything that anyone wants to write and send to the

Pollution Control Board they can do until December 31st.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

130

For purposes of the board, mailed is filed. So as

long as you have it in a mailbox or at the post office by

December 31st, you're okay. You don't have to actually

deliver it to the Pollution Control Board itself. They

will not accept fax filings or, as I was asked, e-mail

filings.

So it's important that you either -- that you do it in

writing and that you either do it through the mail or

hand delivery or Federal Express, some other type of

mailing, and I have the address that that needs to go to,

and at the close of the hearing, I would be happy to make

sure anyone who wants that has it.

Is there anything else before we begin?

MS. HARVEY: There's one additional matter.

The ordinances and associated resolutions that were

introduced this morning as -- I don't know if they were

given an exhibit number, but in conjunction with

Joliet's

motion to take official notice, I have had an opportunity

to do an extremely brief review of those, and I have

identified two places where at least on the face of the

documents they appear to be incomplete, places where they

refer to attachments that don't have attachments.

I have not had an opportunity to do an extensive

review of them, and I simply discussed with

Joliet's

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

131

counsel the possibility of either exchanging a list or

having a follow-up on that so that I can be sure that

what I have constitutes a true and complete copy of what

is in the files of the city clerk. That's all I'm asking

for.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.

MS. HARVEY: I don't know what the best way to

do that procedurally is, if we need to set a date.

MS. ANGELO: We indicated we would follow-up on

the things that were called to our attention and make

sure that it matches the clerk's official copy.

THE HEARING OFFICER: And will you then be

refiling with the board also?

MS. ANGELO: If there are any changes. I don't

know that there are.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.

MS. ANGELO: But certainly if there are any

changes, we will.

MS. ANGELO: I guess I would like it if, for

example, there's one place where it says there should be

an attached subdivision plat and it's not attached to

this document, if the answer is that even in the original

there isn't one, I guess I would like an indication in

writing or somewhere just so I know that these are

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

132

correct.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Can that be done by the

end of the week so that she has that before her brief is

due?

MS. ANGELO: I would expect so. I can't check

with her tonight because she's not here, but I will. I

don't know of a problem, but I would need to check with

her.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. And if you provide

something in writing indicating that they are true and

correct copies and there's nothing additional so that

there's no question of that, and if there are things you

need to supplement then properly supplement.

MS. HARVEY: Madam Hearing Officer, just so I'm

clear, by the end of the week, you mean --

THE HEARING OFFICER: Next week.

MS. HARVEY: -- the 26th?

THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes.

MS. HARVEY: Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: And I know that that may

be tough with the holidays, but if that can be done.

Otherwise, you can call me or file a motion for an

extension. Then are there any other matters?

MS. HARVEY: I don't have anything else.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

133

MR. DESHARNAIS: We have one additional matter,

Madam Hearing Officer.

You had requested in the first part of the hearing

that we submit a record citation regarding the

administrative citations that were issued by CDT Landfill

and where they are found in the record.

They were submitted as part of the applicant's

application, and they are found at Volume I, Exhibit 6,

and begin at page C000033.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Is there anything

further? Okay. Then I'd like to go ahead and begin with

public comment, and the woman in the beige suit since you

have to leave.

Please state your name and spell it for the record,

and then I'll ask that you be sworn in.

I think the other one may be on.

MS. HOPE: My name is Denise Hope, H-o-p-e.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Will you please

swear the witness?

(Witness sworn.)

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

134

WHEREUPON:

D E N I S E H O P E,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Hope

Q. I would like to review for the board and for you,

ma'am, what has been going on in this issue over the last

six years. I want to review a letter that I have written

to the Joliet city council, also my testimony here at the

public hearings.

I do want to state as I stated in my letter that it

may appear that we are a small group, but we are a

working-class community who cannot be here during most of

the hearings, which are during the day, and that also we

are a small -- a community of small children, which also

prevents some from bringing theirs as I had to today.

Also, I want to remind you that we had over 600 people

in our community sign a petition to close the landfill

when its contract is up.

Things I want to reiterate are the smells. I had

written letters and I also had contacted the EPA over the

last six years having attended the prior meetings that

have been held. I had stated that many, many occasions

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

135

we were not able to have our parties outside, and one

particular one, which was very dear to me, which was this

last July 6th, which was my daughter's

gumshay (phonetic)

party, and where we had to all come into the house

because of the smells, and the thing that was very

troubling was somebody who had come to the party said

remind me never to move to Joliet.

This is something that I moved into this community

knowing that this landfill was there. I was told that by

my realtor, but I also was told that there was a definite

finite period that it would be there.

Believing in contracts, I assumed that this would, in

fact, be held to closure. Besides the fact that many

nights at 2:00, 3:00 in the morning I also have gotten in

my car and driven over there to witness the smell

myself. I stated that to the EPA numerous times. My

name is on the record at CDT weekly. My calls would go

over there.

I will say that I don't remember the gentleman's

name. I'm going to guess Jeff, but many times he would

come out to my house and check the smell level.

I also want to talk about the dust that has been in

the testimony here and also reiterate that we have had to

power wash our house many, many times in this past year

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

136

and the years before because there is a high level of

dust.

Someone mentioned at the last hearing that we would

all have to pay more money if this, in fact, did close,

and I guess I want to state that I'm more than willing to

pay more money per month to have this closed because I

want to enjoy my property. I moved in there over --

going on eight years now. I want to enjoy my property

outside and be able to plan events and not have to worry

about the smells.

Also, I believe that the rest of the city of Joliet

should share this burden and not just us who live across

from the landfill. I do want to state that my invitation

is still open to anybody who wants to come over to my

house. Give me your phone number, and I will call you

and let you know when the smell is right, but,

unfortunately, we will have to eat inside. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. Wait, ma'am.

Are there any questions?

MS. HARVEY: Yes, I have a couple, Madam

Hearing Officer.

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Harvey

Q. Ms. Hope, you indicated that you testified before

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

137

the city at the earlier proceeding?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you also submit a written comment?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that the letter to which you referred? I'm

sorry.

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Were you asked to testify tonight by the

city or by its attorneys?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Did you discuss your testimony with either

the city or their attorneys?

A. I attended a meeting last night. I did not

discuss what I was going to say. I knew what my letter

had said, and I knew what I had said the previous time.

Q. Tell me a little bit about the meeting. Where did

the meeting occur?

A. At one of the homes in our neighborhood.

Q. Do you know who organized the meeting?

A. Well, Sue

Sandavol and the other people that have

been at these hearings the last --

THE HEARING OFFICER: Ma'am, I apologize.

Could you either spell the last name of Sue or state it

again for our court reporter?

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

138

MS. HOPE: I don't know the exact spelling.

S-a-n-d-a-v-o-l?

MS. SANDAVOL: Yeah.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Thank you. I

apologize. Please continue.

BY MS. HARVEY:

Q. About how many people were at the meeting last

night?

A. I'd say about 15.

Q. Was there any representative from the city there?

A. No.

Q. Was there any --

A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. Okay. Any attorney from the city there?

A. Yes, the gentleman next to you and the woman next

to him.

Q. Have you done any studies or other kinds of

investigations on the source of the odor to determine

whether the odor was coming from the landfill?

A. Just by my personally going over there. I was

also given a tour of the landfill when it first -- when

we first started having the really bad problems, probably

about four or five years ago.

I put on the hip boots, and they walked me through the

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

139

whole thing and explained the process to me. I was all

-- I really wanted to believe what they had been telling

us at Joliet Junior College that, you know, there were

these landfills they would say in New York that were

right next to million dollar homes and everybody was

happy with it.

I really wanted to understand the process and

understand why we were getting this smell from there, and

so I did take those tours. Unfortunately, a very kind

person over there, but unfortunately it didn't stop. I

think they did try some perfumes or something like that,

but it just didn't stop completely.

Q. I think you mentioned that you had driven over by

the landfill down -- is it Mound Road that you drove

down?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you note other industrial uses in that area

down Mound Road?

A. Well, there are many. I would go from

Houbolt all

the way to the very end which might be

Larkin or

something like that. I don't remember.

Q. East of

Houbolt?

A. East of

Houbolt, yes.

Q. Okay.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

140

A. And I would go all the way down to the end, turn

around, and come all the way back, and could smell it

right in front of the landfill.

Q. Did you smell it --

A. Very strong.

Q. -- anywhere else down Mound Road?

A. No, not those times.

Q. You testified about the dust that you've

experienced at your house. Have you done any kind of

studies or investigations to determine the source of the

dust?

A. Personally not myself, no. I just --

Q. Are you aware of anybody who has?

A. No, I'm not.

Q. Are there farming operations in that area?

A. There have been -- there is a corn farm right

behind us. We did not have that dust before then.

Q. Before when?

A. Before the smell started to occur. Before, I

guess, the landfill got larger. Before our issues, which

I believe -- I don't have the exact date, but I believe

our issues really started in late '92 or '93.

Q. Is there other construction in your neighborhood,

not just residential, but, perhaps, commercial?

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

141

A. In the neighborhood? We had --

Q. In the area, say, around

Houbolt Road and --

A. We had a new elementary school built, but that's

the only thing I know of. There are some other motels

that have come up in the past year.

Q. Did you notice any increase in the dust at that

time?

A. I guess I don't see the dust. I just know that

I've had to power wash my house several times in the past

several years.

Q. I think I just have two more questions.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. The first is do you know if CDT Landfill has ever

had any citations issued to it regarding odor by a

governmental agency? I'm sorry.

A. All I know is that I have reported it to the EPA

many times in Bellwood. I was on their regular calling

list, and they would send an EPA representative out.

Though I never met the person, they would say they came

out, but I don't know of any citations ever.

Q. My final question is did anybody from CDT ever

tell you when or if the landfill was closing?

A. No. I suppose that's because I had checked into

it when I was buying the house, that I checked with the

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

142

newspaper and found out when the contract was expiring

and that it would actually close and be covered over and

it would be done.

Q. Can you give me any more information on the

contract to which you referred?

A. The contract?

Q. Yeah.

A. Maybe that was a poor choice of words. I'm not

sure.

Q. What did you mean by that?

A. What I understood by the real estate agent was

there was a set contract that this would be closed I

believe he said within eight years.

Q. I don't have anything else. Thank you very much.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Ms. Angelo, do you have

anything?

R E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Desharnais

Q. One question, Ms. Hope. Could you tell us what

your address is?

A. 1008 Karen Drive.

Q. And is that in the Cambridge subdivision?

A. Yes, it is.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you very much. Are

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

143

there any other members of the public? Okay. Sir, you

need to state your name and spell it for our court

reporter, please.

MR. WIECHMANN: Yes. My name is Mark

Wiechmann, W- i-e-c-h-m-a-n-n.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. And please be

sworn by our court reporter.

(Witness sworn.)

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.

Please continue.

WHEREUPON:

M A R K W I E C H M A N

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Wiechmann

Q. Okay. I'm with Teamsters Local 179. We represent

about 80 of the employees that work at this landfill.

The president of our local is unable to attend tonight.

So I'm speaking on his behalf.

The union, we are concerned about jobs. We have

members out there that will be losing jobs if this

doesn't go ahead and get passed and expansion approved.

You're dealing with their insurance and their

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

144

pension. Many of them are local residents also, and with

that, I think we stated last time the same position

before to the city counsel, and that's all we have at

this moment here. That's our main concern.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Does the city have any

questions?

MR. DESHARNAIS: No questions.

THE HEARING OFFICER: About CDT?

MS. HARVEY: No, I don't have any questions.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you very much, Mr.

Wiechmann --

MR. WIECHMANN: Yes.

THE HEARING OFFICER: -- is that correct?

MR. WIECHMANN: Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. Please state

your name and spell it for the record.

MR. JOHNSEN: My name is John W.

Johnsen,

J-o-h-n-s-e-n.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.

(Witness sworn.)

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

145

WHEREUPON:

J O H N J O H N S E N,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Johnsen

Q. I appear here this evening wearing two hats. The

first hat is being a citizen of the county and the second

hat being a member of the Will County board.

Several months ago, the county board considered a

resolution concerning this matter. I believe that a copy

has already been furnished to the hearing officer this

morning by other board members, but I have an additional

copy.

I'm not going to read the entire county board

resolution, but I would like to read the last paragraph.

Now, therefore, be it resolved that the Will County

board hereby supports the expansion application of CDT

Landfill in Joliet and feels that it is desirable as it

will assist the county in both meeting its solid waste

management plan and in helping to promote proper solid

waste disposal practices.

This resolution was passed by the Will County board on

the 18th day of September 1997. The vote by the county

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

146

board was 27 -- excuse me, 24 to nothing.

It's my belief that the -- allowing for the expansion

will fit in well with the county's overall disposal

plan. I'm sure you've already heard testimony. The

county is in the process of developing a landfill in the

area in Florence township south of here in my county

board district, and it's the intention of the county

hopefully that this facility will be opened in the next

several years and will be able to take care of the needs

of Will County for approximately 20 years.

In the event that the CDT Landfill closes prior to the

opening of the county's landfill, I think that's going to

cause some negative economic impacts on the county. That

concludes my comments.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Are there any questions?

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

By Ms. Angelo

Q. Just a couple, Mr.

Johnsen.

With respect to the resolution that you referred to, I

think you gave us the date of September 18th?

A. Yes.

Q. Have there been any further official actions taken

by the county with regard to the CDT Landfill since then?

A. Not to my knowledge. There certainly has been no

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

147

county board action, and I have perfect attendance at the

county board meetings.

Q. Are you familiar with a host fee that is to be

paid by CDT Landfill to the county?

A. The -- I'm familiar with the terminology. It's

been explained to the public works committee that I sit

on several times. I will not qualify as an expert

witness on those fees, however. I'm familiar with the

terminology.

Q. Do you know how much it is?

A. I believe it's $1.27 and a half cents a ton; is

that correct? I don't know. There's a fee that the

county collects I believe from all existing landfills in

the county that the county has jurisdiction over

irrespective of whether they be an incorporated area or

an unincorporated area and the figure of $1.27 and a half

cents a ton sticks in my mind.

Q. And can you tell us where you live in the county?

A. I live at 25815

Lorenzo Road, Wilmington,

Illinois, which is an

unincorporated Wilmington township.

Q. Okay. And is that in the vicinity of the CDT

Landfill?

A. No. What is your definition of vicinity?

Q. I'll ask it another way. Can you tell me

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

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approximately how far it is from the CDT Landfill?

A. I would guess I'm 11 or 12 miles.

Q. I have no further questions. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Ms. Harvey.

MS. HARVEY: I don't have anything. Thank

you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr.

Johnsen?

MR. JOHNSEN: Yes.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Did you intend to submit

the resolution?

MR. JOHNSEN: Yes. If you would tell me the

proper way to submit it, I would like to submit it.

THE HEARING OFFICER: What I would like to do

is mark it as a hearing public comment, and it will be

Hearing Public Comment 1, and you can just give it to

me. Thank you.

(Hearing Public Comment No. 1

marked for identification,

12-19-97.)

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

MR. JOHNSEN: Thank you.

MR. CARLSON: My name is Chris

Carlson spelled

C-a-r-l-s-o-n.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

149

(Witness sworn.)

WHEREUPON:

C H R I S C A R L S O N,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Carlson

Q. I live in the Cambridge subdivision at 1143 Gerald

Drive. I provided testimony at the county hearing. I

have several points of interest I'd like to discuss --

reiterate.

First, is the safety involved with the landfill being

so close to my house. I've got a two-year-old daughter

and my interest in safety accentuated because of that. I

realize that she is exposed to whatever pollution may

come my way from the landfill. That would include

groundwater pollution.

I'm concerned about that after researching the subject

of landfills on the Internet. I realize that the

research that I did is not acceptable or admissible

because I missed the deadline, but it does influence my

opinion.

So I do want to make a point that I'm very concerned

about the groundwater quality. It feeds the vegetables

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

150

in my garden and it gets into the retention pond in my

community, and my daughter and others are exposed to

that. So I'm very worried about it.

I'm also concerned about the air quality. There are

days when I can drive along I-80 and see the dust blowing

off the top of the landfill, and I know that it's heading

towards my house if I see it blowing across I-80. It's

right in that direction, and, again, my house has the

dust problems that have also been discussed here.

We've got a severe problem with dust inside and

outside of the house, and to remedy it inside, I've

invested in a

Hepa air filter, and that does some good,

but, again, my daughter is outside much during the

summer, and I'm very worried about that.

Thirdly, with regard to safety is traffic. My wife

has already been involved in a traffic accident merging

out of our subdivision onto

Houbolt Road because of the

traffic, and I know that the landfill isn't responsible

for all of that, but it certainly contributes to some of

the traffic and the large traffic slows everything down.

So I'm concerned that there will be more traffic

accidents along

Houbolt Road.

I'm also concerned about property value. I understand

that the research done by CDT and submitted to public

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record indicates that our property values rose three

percent and that was compared to a target community where

they rose 3.91 percent. That's what I saw in the record.

That may not sound like much, but that represents a

significant loss of money to me in the value of my

property. It's not increasing in value at the rate that

it would expect to be increasing.

I also doubt the -- somewhat the validity of the

research done by the CDT Landfill because I think three

percent is a very low number, and I don't really have any

research to stand behind that, but it seems to me that

three percent is below par as property value increase

goes.

Our subdivision is one of the nicer ones in Joliet,

and I would expect that our houses would be increasing in

value relatively quickly, and there really isn't anything

else in the area that's going to detract from the value

of our community.

We've got hotels and restaurants and businesses coming

up around us. The only thing that really detracts from

the value of our house, as I see it, is the landfill

nearby. The landfill itself we knew existed when we

moved into our house. We noticed the hill on the horizon

when we were touring a model. We asked the

realtor about

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it. We were told that the permit for the landfill was

about to expire.

My wife isn't one to accept pat answers. So she

researched it quite thoroughly. She called the Illinois

Environmental Protection Agency, the U.S. EPA, and she

confirmed the fact that the permit was about to expire,

and we accepted that as fact that, in fact, within a

couple of years the landfill was going to be closed and

that would be the end of it, but a permit was granted to

expand, and here we are again expanding the landfill once

more, and it's getting to the point where the landfill is

visible from the windows in my house.

If I peek outside through any of the upstairs windows,

I can see the landfill on the horizon now, and I can

imagine what 66 feet would be added to that, and it will

tower above the houses and be obvious from any window in

my house in the front.

I really think that's going to detract from the

appearance of the neighborhood in general.

Finally, there's the quality of life issue. I think

that that's very important because I've picked this

house, and I think it's in a nice neighborhood, but there

are times when the odor outdoors just is completely

unbearable, and while I don't have direct evidence that

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153

links it to the landfill, I can say that when the wind is

blowing out of that direction, the air quality is going

to go down.

It's as simple as that, and it smells a lot like

garbage. So I don't know that I have any other proof

with that regard. I certainly haven't hired any

professionals to analyze the air or the dust that falls,

but there seems to be a strong correlation between the

direction of the wind and the smell in the air.

We paid an extra $3,000 to have an extra large lot so

we could enjoy outdoor activities like barbecues and

gardening. I'm afraid that money is wasted because we

really can't enjoy life outdoors anymore with any

regularity. Thank you very much.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. Are there any

questions?

MS. HARVEY: I have just a couple.

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Harvey

Q. Mr.

Carlson, did you attend the meeting last night

that Ms. Hope talked about?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And would you agree with her estimate that there

were about 15 people there?

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

154

A. I think that estimate may be a little bit large,

maybe more like ten, ten or 12. I wasn't keeping count

though.

Q. That's all right. Was there anybody at that

meeting besides the attorneys for the City of Joliet who

didn't live in the -- to your knowledge, who didn't live

in the College Park or Cambridge subdivision?

A. I don't believe so. I know most of the people who

were at the meeting. I think they were all from the

area.

Q. I don't have anything else. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Does the city have any

questions?

MR. DESHARNAIS: No.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

Are there any members of the public who are not able

to stay for some reason who need to come forward now?

Otherwise, we'll just continue. Please, come on up,

sir.

Please state your name and spell it for the record.

MR. OWENS: My name is Leonard

Owens,

L-e-o-n-a-r-d, O-w-e-n-s.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. And please be

sworn in.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

155

(Witness sworn.)

WHEREUPON:

L E O N A R D O W E N S,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Owens

Q. I'm an employee of CDT Landfill, and throughout

these whole proceedings, I've heard quite a bit of the

concerns of the people in Cambridge and College Park, but

no one has taken the time to listen to some of the

concerns of the CDT employees themselves, and I'm here on

behalf of the employees at CDT, plus myself. Excuse me.

I'm a little nervous --

THE HEARING OFFICER: That's okay.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. -- but bear with me.

The impact that all of this has had on some of the CDT

employees is devastating. I have laid off coworkers that

has homes. Their mortgages haven't stopped. Their bills

haven't stopped, you know, and they're laid off because

of the decisions that has been made overall here, and no

one has taken in consideration our lives.

The people in Cambridge and College Park, they're able

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to get up every morning and go to theirs jobs and come

home every evening and love their children, but here when

we come home every day, we're in dismay as to whether

we're going to have a job tomorrow or not due to the

decisions that's being made across the board and over the

board here.

I was here at your meeting this morning, and I heard

an analogy done towards a dentist, you know, and the

analogy that was done towards that dentist, at least the

person that did that analogy has the opportunity to go to

the dentist.

My laid off coworker don't have the opportunity to

even take their children to the dentist now without

worrying about how are they going to pay the bills, and

I'm here just on the behalf of my coworkers at large.

There are us that are still there, very talented people

out there at CDT Landfill. From day to day we wonder

where's our jobs going to be, and I just ask in this

decision-making process, consider us, the workers. Give

us some time to give us -- get some closure in our

lives.

I understand the needs of the people in College Park

and Cambridge. You know, I understand. I feel their

needs, but feel ours for a minute. Give us the

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opportunity to get some closure in our lives.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

MR. OWENS: Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Are there any questions?

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Desharnais

Q. One question, Mr.

Owens, maybe a couple.

You mentioned that you have laid off coworkers. Are

you saying that they're laid off currently?

A. They're laid off currently, and it's -- the

biggest stuff it is due to the decisions that has been

made across the board here, and the counsel had the

opportunity to vote on the fate of my job, and my job is

in limbo right now.

From day to day, I don't know how it's going to be,

and come election time, you know, I get the opportunity

to do the same to them. I get the opportunity to vote on

the fate of their jobs, and you best believe come

election time, you know, I'm going to do all I can to

make the fate of their jobs just the same way the fate of

my job has been for me right now.

I'm concerned about my family, not only my family, the

families of my coworkers, the family of the

Geiss'. You

know, the words from my heart is getting caught up in my

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

158

throat here, but none of us has been considered.

Yes, ma'am.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr.

Owens, I understand

that this is an emotional subject for you. You have

given your testimony though. So if you could allow the

attorneys to just ask you some questions --

MR. OWENS: Yes, ma'am.

THE HEARING OFFICER: -- and then if there's

additional things you want to say, we'd be happy to --

MR. OWENS: I apologize. Yes, ma'am.

THE HEARING OFFICER: -- hear them. Continue.

BY MR. DESHARNAIS:

Q. Mr.

Owens, I just have a couple more questions for

you.

A. All right.

Q. You mentioned that your coworkers are laid off

currently. Do you know if that's due to the landfill

currently operating at a reduced capacity?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. A reduced rate?

A. Yes, I do know that. My coworkers, if we had got

the expansion, we would be making plans to better our

lives as opposed to, you know, where our next meal is

coming. It's largely due --

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

159

Q. The landfill is still operating now?

A. The landfill is operating now, but we're operating

at a capacity not like before.

Q. Okay. Do you know how much of a reduction in

capacity there has been?

A. Sir, I'm their parts runner. That's a question if

want answered, it's better to be answered by someone in

an official capacity.

Q. If you don't know the answer, that's fine.

A. No, sir.

Q. That's the end of the questions.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Ms. Harvey, did you have

anything?

MS. HARVEY: No, I don't. Thanks.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, Mr.

Owens.

Is there anyone else who wishes to speak on the

record?

Sir, did you speak this morning.

MR. JONES: No, I did not.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. I'm sorry. Your

jacket looks familiar to me.

MR. JONES: I got a clean one for a change.

THE HEARING OFFICER: I apologize.

MR. JONES: That's no problem. My name is Don

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

160

Jones.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. And will you

please be sworn in?

(Witness sworn.)

WHEREUPON:

D O N J O N E S,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr. Jones

Q. I've come here with a couple of hats like the

other gentleman said. I'm a life-long resident of

Joliet. I used to walk over the canal when we could

literally walk over the water in the canal. So I do

appreciate some of the efforts of the EPA, and I do live

in Camelot, which is west -- maybe two miles west of the

landfill.

I am a truck dealer here in Joliet. I have done

business with the CDT Landfill. I wish I did more. They

would give me some of it, but a couple of points. One,

I've seen a tremendous improvement. I remember when the

landfills in that area were far worse. I don't think

it's bad now. I go by it every day probably six to eight

times, and I have great sympathy for the people in

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

161

College Park. I don't know if all the smells they

experience come from the landfill. I'm not in a position

to document where they come from, but I would suggest

that if you went from

Rockdale to Route 55, the other

side of the landfill, you also would have some very bad

noxious odors, and it might be a point that should be at

least raised here.

So I'm doing that as a citizen. I would like to see

Joliet have the employment and what not that comes with

the landfill and certainly not the problems that may be

associated with it, but one of the most important things

that I have experienced is in dealing with the CDT

management.

Again, they are local people. My contact is in truck

sales and trying to make them happy and maybe some of the

people here see my trucks causing some dirt too, but the

bottom line is they have been men of their word in every

regard.

If there's something that needs to be done, they're

not going to stand here and appease you because they have

been very forthright with me. They'd always tell me the

answer, and to me, that's a novel experience in today's

world.

We got local people, and if they promise they're going

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

162

to do something, if there's a problem, it's going to be

resolved here. I think at least we have the people that

will do it. To me, that's very important. That's all I

have to say.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Are there any questions?

MR. DESHARNAIS: No questions.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Ms. Harvey?

MS. HARVEY: I don't have any questions.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, Mr. Jones.

Hi.

MS. CARLSON: Hi.

THE HEARING OFFICER: State your name.

MS. CARLSON: Cheryl

Carlson.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Can you spell it, please?

MS. CARLSON: C-h-e-r-y-l, C-a-r-l-s-o-n.

You're probably familiar with the last name, I think.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Please continue, and you

can swear the witness.

(Witness sworn.)

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

163

WHEREUPON:

C H E R Y L C A R L S O N,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms.

Carlson

Q. Okay. I am a resident of the Cambridge

subdivision. We've lived there for the -- about the past

six and a half years, and I was to a previous hearing

here before, but just to state that when we bought our

home, I had felt like I had done a lot of research into

the area.

I called to the city of Joliet, and I was aware of the

landfill being there, and I had asked about the time when

it would close, and they said that it had several years

left.

I also called the owner of the landfill, Danny

Geiss,

and I also made a point of calling down to the

Environmental Protection -- excuse me, the EPA, the

Environmental Protection Agency down in Springfield I

think it was, and it was a concern of ours because I am

aware of the other landfills in Illinois, basically the

one in DuPage in Bolingbrook and also the one, Mallard

Lake, that they had previous situations where they were

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

164

supposed to close and they just kept being extended and

extended, and at the time when I called all three places,

I got the same response that the landfill was going to be

at its capacity and at each point I asked could it be

extended, and I was told well, there is that possibility,

but, you know, when the landfill reaches capacity, it's

pretty much at capacity.

Through the years then several years into our home

once again an extension came up, and my husband and I

were still concerned at that time, but at that meeting,

which my husband went to, which was over at Joliet Junior

College, the feeling that we got at that time from the

landfill owners who had presented their case was that

once again this was just going to be for a few years, and

then it would be over, and our point is just when is it

over?

I guess in a way I feel that I have been duped by the

system. I felt that I did everything right. I made all

the phone calls, and every time I was given an answer,

and now I realize that could be or should be does not

mean that it will be, and as we moved into our home, I've

seen what's kind of been a bump on the horizon now be

something that when I look out my second story window, I

can see from every window of my home.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

165

When I first moved into my home, that was not there.

My concern is that if this goes on, we're going to have

literally a trash mountain to look outside our second

story windows, but also our first story windows.

It's not only the sight of it, but it's also the odor

of it, and I know many people, I know they work there or

whatever, but they don't live where we do, and there are

days when it is so bad that literally I cannot take my

daughter outside to play.

She's had days when she's come up and said it's

yucky,

mama, and she's right, it is

yucky, and I guess if I had

known then what I know now, we would have never bought a

home where we did.

I feel that if right now if there was any way I could

tell anybody ever even considering buying a home near a

landfill, there are no guarantees, and I honestly felt

that the Environmental Protection Agency and some of the

other groups out there were out there to protect my

rights, that when I called them several years ago and

asked should this be the end, that that was going to be

the end or, you know, that it's -- when it's at capacity,

and now I feel like it's just the minimal thing. I

realize the Environmental Protection Agency does many

things that are important to help protect us, but now I

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

166

feel that many of those are some minimum standards.

I also know that people have brought up the issue of

their jobs, the people who drive the garbage trucks.

Regardless of whether this landfill closes or not, we

will still have garbage that needs to be picked up and

there are still going to be people who need to buy those

trucks.

I guess what I don't understand is if there still is

garbage and it still needs to be picked up, wouldn't the

same people still have their jobs, just, perhaps, going

to another location? So that's it.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Are there any

questions for Ms.

Carlson?

MS. HARVEY: I just have one or two.

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Harvey

Q. Ms.

Carlson, are you related to the Mr.

Carlson --

A. Yes, I am.

Q. -- who spoke tonight?

How are you related?

A. My husband.

Q. I just wanted to be sure I understood. I don't

have anything else. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr.

Desharnais?

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

167

MR. DESHARNAIS: No questions.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you very much.

MR. PLUMADORE: My name is Gary

Plumadore,

P-l-u-m-a-d-o-r-e.

(Witness sworn.)

WHEREUPON:

G A R Y P L U M A D O R E,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Plumadore

Q. My wife and I just moved into Cambridge

subdivision about two and a half years ago. When we went

to purchase our home, we were told by our real estate

agent that the landfill was there and that it would be

closed within the next three or four years.

On that basis and looking for a good school system,

which we found with the Troy township schools, we moved

into that house. Last summer, there was a meeting at

Joliet Junior College by CDT Landfill stating to the

residents of Cambridge and College Park that they'd be

asking for another extension.

The key word that caught me there was another

extension. They promised the last extension was the last

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

168

extension that they would ask for. It seems that it's

never, like, the last extension that they can go or they

can have.

The quality of life in our neighborhood is good I'd

say probably about 75 percent of the time, but there is

that 25 percent of the time that the odors do get kind of

outrageous.

Early in the morning when the air is real still, you

can smell like a fish or a garbage order in the air just

sitting on the ground or towards the ground that you can

smell real strong. What else? That's all -- oh, I do

have four letters from residents, neighboring residents,

that I'd like to be entered in.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. I will enter those

as Hearing Public Comment No. 2, and it will be all four

letters.

(Hearing Public Comment No. 2

marked for identification,

12-19-97.)

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

MR. PLUMADORE: You're welcome.

THE HEARING OFFICER: And they will be -- those

will be transmitted to the board and become part of the

record.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

169

Any questions?

MS. HARVEY: One second, please.

I don't have anything. Thank you.

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Desharnais

Q. We have one question, Mr.

Plumadore.

A. Yes.

Q. Could you just state for the record your address?

A. 1051 Karen Drive.

Q. Thank you.

A. Joliet.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

MR. CARNE: My name is

Phillip Carne, and

that's C-a-r-n-e. I'm also a resident of Cambridge, and

I have been for eight years. The people that have

already spoken have done a pretty good job of covering

everything that --

THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm sorry. You need to

be sworn in.

MR. CARNE: I'm sorry.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

(Witness sworn.)

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

170

WHEREUPON:

P H I L

L I P C A R N E,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr. Carne

Q. I think most of the people that have already

testified have done a pretty good job of covering

everything. I testified at the city council hearing, and

after the teamsters talked about the loss of jobs, and

nobody wants to end up losing their jobs. The loss of

jobs and downsizing of corporate America are a way of

life today, and that's part -- I mean, everybody is faced

with that, not just these employees.

Mr. Johnsen from the Will County board said something

about the economic effect on Will County. We have 500

homes between Cambridge and College Park that are already

suffering economic adversity and real estate values, and

their study said that real estate is appreciating at

Cambridge at three percent and their target group was

three -- as Chris pointed out was 3.91. That's 30

percent less appreciation that we're experiencing every

year. That's from their numbers.

The quality of life, they've touched on the dust

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

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issues, the odors. There's no sense in beating that into

the ground. One thing that really hasn't been brought up

tonight, it may have been brought up earlier, what their

testimony in front of the city council was that less than

ten percent of the trash being brought into this landfill

even comes out of Joliet. The rest is brought in. I

don't see the need for a landfill there in Joliet.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Are there any

questions for Mr. Carne?

MS. HARVEY: I don't have any questions.

Thanks.

THE HEARING OFFICER: The other side?

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Desharnais

Q. Mr. Carne, could you just state for the record

your address?

A. 1044 Gerald.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

MR. CARNE: Thank you.

MR. BOZA: My name is John

Boza, B-o-z-a, 805

North Bluff Street in Joliet, a resident.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Please swear the

witness.

(Witness sworn.)

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

172

WHEREUPON:

J O H N B O Z A,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Boza

Q. I drove for 25 years for Banner Disposal. They've

talked about the smell at the landfill, but I service

quite a few of the accounts in

Rockdale and Joliet. Some

considerations for the smells might be

Kalucny

processing, Mallory Grease, Banner Western Disposal,

Johns Mansville, they make roofing material on Route 6.

You get dust and smells from there.

Ecolab, they have

chemicals. Caterpillar,

P.T. Farrell Asphalt, the river

itself because I live on the river, Joliet Stone, we have

dust there daily.

Chemlite, chemicals again.

We have three car -- truck washes, chemical --

commercial truck washes on Route 6. Is there smells from

there? Amoco, Stone Container. We have two water

treatment plants, Joliet and also

Rockdale, and plus

numerous other ones.

So they say it smells from the landfill, I really

doubt that. Any questions?

THE HEARING OFFICER: Are there questions? Are

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

173

there any questions?

MR. DESHARNAIS: Yeah, just a couple

questions.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Just a moment, please.

I'd just like to ask if people are going to have

conversations that they step outside. It's hard for the

court reporter to record the proceedings with the

background noise. Thank you. Please continue.

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Desharnais

Q. Mr.

Boyer?

A. Boza.

Q. Oh, I'm sorry,

Boza. I can't read my own

writing. You mentioned that you live on North Bluff

Street in Joliet. Can you tell me where that is in

relation to the landfill?

A. Probably about five miles.

It's -- it would be, oh, northeast of the landfill.

Q. And could you tell me you if your employer is a

customer of the landfill?

A. I used to work for Banner Disposal in Joliet. I

work for the Teamsters now for the last two months. I

was employed with Banner for 25 years.

Q. Okay. So you're currently employed by the

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

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Teamsters?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And was Urbana a customer of the landfill?

A. Pardom me.

Q. Urbana Disposal, were they --

A. Banner Western Disposal.

Q. Banner Western?

A. Yes.

Q. I'm sorry. Were they a customer of the landfill?

A. Yes. We did, you know, transport stuff there.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Anything further?

MR. DESHARNAIS: No further questions.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Ms. Harvey?

R E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Harvey

Q. I have just a couple questions.

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Just so that the record is clear, the possible

sources that you listed for dust and/or odor, are those

all in the area of the landfill? Would you define them

as all being in the area --

A. Yes.

Q. -- of the landfill?

A. Yes, ma'am.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

175

Q. Okay. And can you tell me what they do at

Kalucny

Brothers?

A. Kalucny Brothers --

Q. What is their business?

A. They render grease, they process grease and I

believe meat products from restaurants and others.

MS. HARVEY: I don't have anything else. Thank

you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Just a moment. Is there

another question?

R E C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Desharnais

Q. You mentioned that all those businesses are in the

area of the landfill?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Can you define what you mean by in the area?

A. I'd say within a mile, two mile area.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Anything further.

MR. DESHARNAIS: No further questions.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, Mr.

Boza.

MR.

DeGROATE: My name is Scott

DeGroate

spelled D-e, capital, G, r-o-a-t-e.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Please be sworn.

(Witness sworn.)

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

176

WHEREUPON:

S C O T

T D e G R O A T E,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

DeGroate

Q. I'm a local lubricant and fuels company, and we

currently provide lubricants to the landfill. My father

and I have known the

Geiss family for many years. We

feel that if the landfill, you know, should lose at this

proposition in some way, that it will be detrimental, you

know, to the local economy and for the local labor in the

area as well.

You know, I have lived in the area for over 29 years

now. I live within a mile and a half roughly of the

landfill. I've really never smelled any rough smells

coming from the landfill. I frequent the landfill once

or twice a week, and if you were to be in a vehicle, and

I would say from

Larkin Avenue down to

Houbolt Road, you

know, I don't know how you could determine what is the

smell, you know.

I do feel for the people within Cambridge and College

Park, but within the different companies that I go into,

I can't distinguish what is what. That's what I have to

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say.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Just a moment,

please. Are there any questions?

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Desharnais

Q. Could you just tell us what your address is?

A. It is 445

DeGroate Road.

Q. And what direction is that from the landfill?

A. I no longer live in Joliet. I got married and

moved. Sorry.

Q. And where is that then?

A. I live in New

Lenox now.

Q. New

Lenox?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, how far would you say that your home is from

the landfill?

A. Now, ten miles roughly.

MR. DESHARNAIS: No further questions.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Ms. Harvey?

MS. HARVEY: I have just a couple.

R E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Harvey

Q. You testified, if I understand then, that you

previously lived within a mile and a half of the

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

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landfill?

A. Correct.

Q. And you didn't experience any odor?

A. No.

Q. I don't have anything else.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Anything further?

Thank you, Mr.

DeGroate.

MS. WASCHER: Name is Shawn

Wascher,

W-a-s-c-h-e-r.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Please be sworn in.

(Witness sworn.)

THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm going

to have to ask you to speak

up. I'm having a hard time

hearing you.

WHEREUPON:

S H A W N W A S C H E R,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms.

Wascher

Q. Okay. My name is Shawn

Wascher, like I said, and

I didn't plan on speaking here tonight first of all. So

I've jotted down some notes that might be out of order

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

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and so on.

I lived in -- I moved to College Park about three and

a half, four years ago, and then I moved to Cambridge

about six months ago. Okay. I moved from College Park

to Cambridge because I liked the subdivision and they put

up a new elementary school. I like the location, and I

like the neighborhood.

I was under the impression that the landfill would be

closed and, obviously, that's why I stayed in the area.

I wouldn't -- it's also been brought to my attention -- I

just like to say for the record that I have not followed

this very, very closely. I don't know a lot that's going

on, and I'm sorry about that.

I have three small children, one who is here tonight.

He's one. I have a two-year-old and I have a

five-year-old. I also work and my husband works.

I'm concerned about the water. I do want to say that

living in College Park I did not smell the smells as much

as I do in Cambridge, but I'd also like to say that I

live right on Cathy Drive, which is right across the

street from 80 and the landfill.

I can see the landfill from my front yard. So I do

not have to be upstairs in order to see the landfill. I

moved there knowing that. It was the house that was

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available at the time, and I needed a bigger house

because of my last child being born.

I love my house. I love my neighborhood. I live on

the lake, which I also paid extra, you know, taxes for

living on the lake or water retention, and it's not --

you can't swim in there. You know, I don't know -- I

don't know if this is from the landfill. I just want to

say that up front. I don't know that, but, you know, I

do pay extra money to live on the lake, and I would like

to know, you know, what is this landfill doing to the

water?

Is it -- you know, is it all of Joliet? I mean, if I

didn't live in Cambridge, you know, if I lived somewhere

else, how is this affecting it, and I think that's the

biggest problem I have.

My daughter, who's five, she might say something about

the smells. My boys aren't going to say anything about

the smells because they're two and one and, frankly, they

don't care, and I want to know -- I want to know, you

know, is this affecting our children? I want to know

that.

I'm not saying it is. I'm asking you is this

affecting our children, and I think CDT Landfill and

Joliet township should find some people who know what's

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going on and let us know. You know, as far as the

meeting last night and how many people were there, well

this is somebody's home, and she's not going to invite

everybody into her home.

There's people that are going to represent us all.

Okay? You can't put 500 families in one house. I would

have went last night, but I didn't because I knew

somebody, my neighbor, was going, and she would let me

know what's going on.

Just because everybody doesn't go doesn't mean people

don't care. You know, I came here tonight. I had to pay

a babysitter, and I had to take off work. Yes, I came,

but I live on Cathy Drive, and I smell the smells, and I

want to tell you that a week after moving in, with my

three small children, I'm outside a lot, CDT came by like

twice a day, and I'm like, you know, what's going on?

You know, what is this smell, and he told me, and I'm

telling you what he told me, he told me, I don't know if

this is true, that it wasn't the garbage dump, that it

was grass clippings.

So do you want to know what the smell smells like?

The smell -- this is what I think the smell smells like.

When you take your garbage can lid off, okay, that's what

it smells like. You know, you don't have to believe me,

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but that's what it smells like, and I -- grease, I mean,

I know what grease smells like.

I don't know if it's from the landfill, but there is a

smell, and it smells like when you take your lid off your

garbage can. That's what it smells like. When it's an

old garbage can, that's what it smells like, you know.

I do feel bad for the CDT employees, the landfill

employees. I really do. I mean, that guy, you know,

really got to me, and that's what made me get up and

speak. I don't think that CDT should make these people

feel like it's their fault. If they don't win this case,

that they're not going to have a job. I don't think

that's fair.

You know, like somebody else said, we all have to

worry about our jobs. My husband could lose his job

tomorrow too, but why are these people threatening these

people with that? I don't think that's right.

You know, like somebody else said, where is the

garbage going to go? Okay. Say they expand it, where is

it going to go after that? I know they're waiting on

something else, but garbage is going to go somewhere, and

I think you should just make it safe, and I don't think

that the CDT people should lose their jobs. I don't

think that's right.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

183

I would just like to say that, and I don't think that

CDT should threaten these people and tell them they're

going to lose their jobs if they're not in here, you

know, fighting for it. They're making College Park and

Cambridge against the workers of there when it should be

the city of Joliet and it should be CDT working out

something so it's safe and it doesn't smell, and I'd just

like to say isn't there a reasonable compromise? I do

have small children, and I do love them.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Are there any questions?

MS. HARVEY: I don't have any questions.

MR. DESHARNAIS: No questions.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you very much.

MS. WEATHERSPOON: Hi. My name is Erica

Weatherspoon.

THE REPORTER: Could you smell your last name?

MS. WEATHERSPOON:

Weatherspoon,

W-e-a-t-h-e-r-s-p, double o, n.

THE HEARING OFFICER: O-n, o-o, or o?

MS. WEATHERSPOON: Double O.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

(Witness sworn.)

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

184

WHEREUPON:

E R I C A W E A T H E R S P O

O N,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms.

Weatherspoon

Q. Hi. How are you doing this evening? I live at

3341 Longford Court in the College Park subdivision. I

don't really know where I've been. All I want to say is

that when I first moved in about two years ago, maybe I

was in the twilight zone or something or I'm just trying

to get in my home, but I was not aware that there was a

landfill maybe a couple miles over like in that

subdivision. No one told me that until one day I was

getting ready to -- this was about 4:00 o'clock in the

morning, and I had awakened with my kids, and we're

searching around the house looking for this Pamper trying

to find what happened to the Pamper or what did my son do

with it?

As I'm making him look for this Pamper, we're

searching around the whole house, and I'm like you guys

can't go back to sleep until we find this, but to my

surprise and to my relief, it wasn't the Pamper.

I had talked to one of my neighbors, and we went

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

185

outside and he's like well, you don't know what that is,

and I was like no, I don't, and he said that's the

landfill, you didn't know there was one right there, and

I'm in the house arguing with husband telling him that

how could he move us somewhere next to a big old garbage

dump. We had no idea, and he didn't know, I didn't know,

and my real estate agent didn't tell me this, and if I

had known this, then I would have -- clearly, I would

have never purchased my house next to a garbage dump,

landfill, whatever you want to call it. It's still

garbage and it still stinks.

I did not know this. I'm in agreement to the neighbor

who just spoke who said that I feel that's wrong for a

company that's concerned about their employees to stress

the fact that if you don't come, you don't speak and

testify, you know, against -- not in favor of the

expansion that you'll lose your job. It's not a decision

about -- you know, it's not a decision about who doesn't

get their job or how good we know the family.

I keep hearing people talk about how much we love the

Geiss family. It's not about the

Geiss family. It's

about our homes. It's about appreciation and the

depreciation of our homes and our families.

I feel sorry. My heart feels for people, but I am --

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

186

I can say that I know that garbage is always going to be

on the rise like violence is always going to be on the

rise, if you want to compare the two, but I just want to

say that I'm not in favor of it. It does smell.

I don't know what they've been smelling, but it does

smell really bad, and once, again, if I had known that it

was -- it's in my area, I would have never bought my

home. I'm just mad at my realty company that they didn't

even tell me this because I can't say and I can't speak

for anyone else. I can just speak for myself and say

that no, I did not know that it was a landfill.

No one told me that it's going to be here for a

certain amount of years. I never knew this, you know,

and I can't say that -- maybe that's to my ignorance.

Maybe I didn't do enough searching. I was happy that I

had a big backyard for my kids, you know, but if I had

realized that, then that would be a disadvantage in

purchasing my home. Thank you for your time.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. Are there any

questions? Ma'am, please wait. Ms.

Weatherspoon, please

wait just --

MS. WEATHERSPOON: Oh, I'm sorry.

THE HEARING OFFICER: -- in case there are any

questions?

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

187

MR. DESHARNAIS: We don't have any questions.

MS. HARVEY: I don't have any questions.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

Is there anyone else who wishes to make a public

statement?

MS. RONZONE: My name is Marjorie

Ronzone,

R-o-n-z-o-n-e.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.

(Witness sworn.)

WHEREUPON:

M A R J O R I E R O N Z O N E,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms.

Ronzone

Q. Well, nine years ago we were in the same room

together. I was a younger mother of young children like

the woman who spoke not long ago. We've lived at, for

the record, 3219

Longford Drive since October, I think,

of '88.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Is that in the Cambridge

subdivision?

MS. RONZONE: It's in College Park. It's

across -- it's the north side of

Longford.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

188

BY MS. RONZONE:

Q. We're three houses from the cornfields outside my

living room windows. Every morning, I notice that the

sun is a minute or two later because the dump is a little

taller. I've been a forbearing neighbor. I remember Mr.

Geiss, Sr.'s comments and Mr.

Geiss, Jr.'s comments in

previous hearings, that they were motivated to be good

neighbors, and I put faith in them.

Because I haven't militantly complained about the odor

and because I have ten years of experience in that

neighborhood and know the whole kaleidoscope of aromas

the way a pianist knows his low notes up to his high

notes. Okay. I can tell you what's wrong with any of

the industrial neighbors along Mound Road. Okay?

I appreciate the comments of the gentleman truck

driver who obviously drives down Mound Road and looks at

the landfill from the Mound Road side.

Well, I don't know if it really does look better from

the Mound Road side, but from our side, and I'm

remembering promises at previous hearings, landscaping,

it was going to look so much better, we'd be proud to

have it, it would be an asset, and as I look at it, it's

a landfill.

Now, I can ask some questions and maybe get some

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

189

answers here, although all of the industrial neighbors

down Mound Road, many of which have nuisance output, if

you will, what would be the largest?

As I drive down Mound Road, and as I compare acreage,

it's the landfill. I liked the idea of grass

composting. I can never like the smell. I remember

before it was started. I remember the new aroma as it

came. No, I'm not an expert. I know that people -- and

we have not tried to sell our house in ten years.

We will be there as long as we can, but nobody in

their right mind would put their house up for sale in the

summertime. Nobody in their right mind would have

anybody come look at their house the day after a heavy

rain. The odors will drive the buyers right away, and

some of the people that have been our neighbors who have

come and gone have faced those problems in selling their

houses.

I simply want to say that because I've been forbearing

doesn't mean that there isn't a problem. It doesn't mean

that I don't invite the

Geisses to improve their track

record. They say -- they said they wanted to be good

neighbors. I think we'll always welcome good neighbors,

but I'm waiting to see.

These were promises that were made -- obtained,

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

190

expansions that were already granted. The expansions

were granted. I do not see where the promises were kept,

and those are my reservations. My remarks are concluded.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. Are there any

questions?

MS. HARVEY: I don't have any questions.

MR. DESHARNAIS: No questions.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you very much.

Anyone further?

MR. LOUIS: How are you doing? My name is John

Louis. I live at 1137 Cathy Drive. My house faces --

THE HEARING OFFICER: You need to be sworn in,

Mr. Louis?

THE REPORTER: First of all, can you spell your

last name?

MR. LOUIS: L-o-u-

i-s.

(Witness sworn.)

WHEREUPON:

J O H N L O U I S,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr. Louis

Q. My house faces the landfill, and now it's -- we

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

191

have a new thing. The mound, like they say, is huge, but

every Saturday I get to watch garbage being dumped on the

mound and dump. So now it's like I can't have people

over in the summer or after, like she said, a rain

because of the smell.

Now, I can't have people over now because all I'm

doing all day Saturday is watching garbage come down this

hill and then dirt get thrown over it and then a dust

storm coming towards my house. Okay?

One of the reasons why I'm really here is five years

ago they told us that they were on this expansion for

five years and then they were going to be done just like

they also said five years ago that they were going to do

landscaping all along the side of it. How much longer do

we have to go with this?

I mean, they keep getting -- coming back for an

expansion, and they were saying originally this is going

to be two years now, and then all of a sudden it was

going to be eight years. Okay. Every time we talk, it's

going up by five or ten years.

I can't see how they could keep expanding this thing.

How high are they going to really go? Like she says,

people on the second floor a block away can't see over it

because out of their windows all they see is a mountain.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

192

I can't even see -- I live right between two houses,

and it's like a wall of garbage every Saturday. I'm not

home during the week. I'm sure it's going on during the

week too. Okay. At 7:00 o'clock in the morning we hear

their trucks backing up with their beepers going.

You know, when you try to sleep, you can't. When you

get up, you're looking at garbage, and when you want to

go outside, you got the smell. Now, you know, five years

ago, and I feel -- believe me when I tell you for the

teamsters and people that probably are going to lose

their jobs maybe, you know, I do feel sorry for them, but

they got to feel sorry for us, but then again why didn't

the Geisses bring the teamsters five years ago to the

Joliet Junior College when they were telling us this

expansion was only going to be five years.

Maybe they would have known five years ago that they

might have been out of a job in five years. See, these

are the things that the

Geisses and the landfill people

let us know, but they're not telling their own employees.

They should have told them five years ago there's a

possibility that they're going to be out of a job when

they were telling us five years ago that this is it, in

five years we're closing the landfill down. Okay. And

that's all I have to say.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

193

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, Mr. Louis.

Are there any questions?

MR. DESHARNAIS: We have a question.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Just a moment. Give CDT

a minute.

MS. HARVEY: I don't have anything.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr.

Desharnais?

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Desharnais

Q. Mr. Louis, you testified that you could hear truck

beepers. Could you tell us what you mean by that? When

do you hear the truck beepers?

A. Every Saturday about 6:30, 7:00 o'clock in the

morning you'll hear beep, beep, beep, beep, beep all day

long. It starts at like -- you know, it's like an alarm

clock.

Q. And can you tell where those -- where the

sounds --

A. Yeah. They're coming right -- I could see it. I

could see the trucks on the mound right across I-80. I

live -- I could look right -- every day I look right at

the landfill between two houses. There's a big mound

with trucks. They're dumping garbage and they're plowing

it over with dirt. If it's a little windy, like I said,

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

194

then you get the dust storm coming off of it.

Q. No further questions.

THE WITNESS: Ms. Harvey, did you have

anything?

MS. HARVEY: Just a second, please. No, I

don't have anything.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, Mr. Louis.

MR. LOUIS: Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Is there anyone else who

wishes to make a statement?

MS. SANDOVAL: Hi. My name is Suzanne

Bozie,

slash, Sandoval, S-a-n-d-o-v-a-l.

THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm sorry. Could you

spell that again?

MS. SANDOVAL: S-a-n-d-o, v as in Victor, a-l.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Please be sworn.

(Witness sworn.)

WHEREUPON:

S U Z A N

N E S A N D O V A L,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms.

Sandoval

Q. First of all, I want to note that on the record

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

195

and in the record there was a petition submitted by

myself as well as some of the other residents from

Cambridge and College Park, Mary Crest, Fairview, and

Golfview Estates. I just want to read the petition

head. To make note, it is already on the record and in

the record, but I would just like to go over that

briefly.

It says that we the residents of College Park, Mary

Crest, Fairview,

Golfview Estates, and Cambridge

subdivisions are against any and all expansions of the

CDT Landfill site located at 2851 Mound Road, Joliet,

Illinois, 60435.

Please consider the 548 residents, plus some. Like I

said, there's Mary Crest, Fairview, and

Golfview

Estates.

THE HEARING OFFICER: I need to ask you to just

slow down a little bit for the court reporter.

MS. SANDOVAL: Okay. Sorry.

BY MS. SANDOVAL:

Q. Please consider the 548 residents alone in College

and Cambridge Park as well as Mary Crest, Fairview, and

Golfview Estates residents who have put up with this bad

stigma that has been associated with our subdivisions and

sometimes uncontrollable sickening stench coming from the

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

196

polluted waste, waste that has plagued the air over all

of our fine homes.

These homes will suffer poor resale if the landfill is

permitted to continue for more years than was originally

planned.

It is time that the city of Joliet as well as the

Illinois Pollution Control Board, appellate board,

however far this goes must declare the CDT Landfill at

total capacity and close the site once and for all. At

this last extension, we the residents of College and

Cambridge subdivisions, Mary Crest, Fairview,

Golview

Estate subdivisions should have the right to vote here by

these petitions. These petitions signed by these

residents in these subdivisions are taking the vote

against any and all expansions of the CDT Landfill. We

all deserve to be able to enjoy our homes, which we work

very hard for.

I also want to make a note that Mr., is it,

Johnsen

for the Will County board, I have three members of the

Will County board that I am very close to as your friends

that had no idea that once this came about the problem

that the residents had, in fact, with that.

The one, in fact, that is my dearest friend, she had

told me that she had no idea that Cambridge and College

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

197

Park were that close, that they had such a problem --

that we had such a problem with the smell, the dust, the

liter. I just wanted to make that little brief comment.

I also want to make a comment that when CDT originally

for their site hearing had invited all the residents of

Cambridge and College Park to Joliet Junior College,

first of all, if it doesn't affect us in any way, why are

we notified?

Obviously, it does directly affect Cambridge and

College Park because if it didn't, why would we be

notified of expansions, site hearings, and so on and so

forth.

When that site hearing was at the Joliet Junior

College, CDT -- the people who represented CDT were more

than willing to give us nice little booklets showing us

beautiful pictures of the landfill, a nice little flat

thing, this is the picture now, a nice big beautiful

green hill with trees around it, this is what it's going

to look like after the expansion.

Well, according to those pictures, according to those

photos after I moved in my house, I looked at that and I

said gee, the second picture of what it's going to look

like looks exactly what it looks like now, except it's

not beautiful and green. It's nice and brown and ugly.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

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It's a big eyesore for me, for my family, and for a lot

of the residents that I've represented in the past

through these hearings.

First of all, I do want to mention that the smell --

it may not have anything to do with it, but when I get

off on Weber Road and I-55 on Thursdays I believe it is

at about 5:07 I get on there, I get trucks, trucks with

tarps on them, trucks that smell absolutely disgusting

that could make me vomit.

I followed them one day, followed them right where,

directly to CDT. Well, gee, that smell -- if CDT never

smelled, if it's

Kalucny Brothers, if it's Stone,

whatever, Stone Container, then why did the trucks -- the

trucks wouldn't smell then.

What I'm trying to simply state is how could garbage

not smell. If it smells in your garage, if it smells in

your garbage can, if it smells outside on the streets,

how could garbage not smell at a landfill? The landfill

holds tons and tons and millions of tons of garbage, and

you mean to tell me that just because you throw a little

dirt on it it's going to go away? Manure doesn't, manure

smells.

I also wanted to say that I have also called to

complain and gotten voice mails and told well, you don't

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199

need the voice mail, we can take a message. No, I wanted

voice mail because I want to make sure that this person

gets my call.

I've left phone calls, messages on their voice mail,

no return calls, no responses. The litter, I just want

to say I've seen birds when I've been taking my walks

when the smell wasn't bad, and you could see the trash up

there. The birds up there picking away at the trash,

sure enough flying, I mean, not directly at me. I've

seen them fly away with papers, little pieces of

garbage. You mean to tell me that that's not being

dropped. We are directly right across from it, not even

a mile across from it. That's not being dropped into our

subdivision, into our lake, into our little ponds that we

build in our backyard, onto our grass?

Sure, there's pollution. We all know there's

pollution, people throwing things out the windows, but it

just so happens that our subdivision has a majority of

everything blowing across off the hill over I-80 through

the cornfields and then to us.

The wind, let alone the dust, the litter, once again

the smell, also the height. The businesses all around

CDT, those seem to be a little bit lower. The businesses

that testified, nobody -- once again, I don't dislike Cal

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200

and Peg Geiss. I don't dislike Danny

Geiss, Kevin, the

whole family. I have no beef with them, no problem with

them as a person.

I don't know them personally. They seem like

generally nice people, and I mean that. What I have a

problem with is the landfill. I don't have a problem

with saying that they don't do good business. For all I

know, they do.

I'm not saying -- this is not a business issue. This

is not an issue that they're doing good business. This

is an issue that -- this is -- there's a community

around. There's a community around that's suffering.

Yes, there's people that may suffer from their jobs, but

once again, everybody has a chance at -- takes a chance

at losing their jobs.

I have to pay for a house because I can't get out

now. I'm too -- I'm in it, and I just purchased it. I

can't get out now. I can't just walk out. I lose

everything. I lose everything and go back into an

apartment. Well, you know, I've thought about it, me and

my husband have thought about it, if it's worth not the

smell, not having to see that, not having to have people

come over to my house and smell that.

I've had six occasions since I've moved in that house,

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

201

whether it's birthday parties, housewarming parties, just

family get-togethers that I said -- you know, and once

again, for the record, I did not know there was a

landfill there until I smelled it, and I had people over

there saying what is that God-awful smell, and I said

well, I'll tell you what, a lot of people say it's other

businesses around it, a lot of people say it's the

landfill. I've actually driven to there on occasion,

followed and gone to that -- gone to in front of that

landfill and smelled. I've gone to

Kalucny Brothers

now.

I know

Kalucny Brothers definitely has a smell, but

there is a difference. There's a difference between raw

or spoiled meat and there's a difference between, like

she said, grass clippings or regular garbage. There's

different scents, and that's why people have noses to

breathe with and to smell things with.

All we see is this brown, big, high, ugly eyesore, and

if it becomes any higher, it's just going to get worse.

It's going to be worse. Like she also -- like one of the

other residents also said when is enough

enough?

I mean, we've put up with -- there has been something

there for 32 years now, over 32 years. We're just asking

as residents, as taxpayers, as hard workers, some of us

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

202

work seven days as a week, you know, and I'm sorry, I'm

getting a little upset, but that -- I had to purchase my

brand -- my first house, because I was just married, in a

subdivision that's got to see a landfill, I've got to

smell it, I've got to have, because I testified before,

truck drivers out in front of my house calling me names.

All these things I've had to deal with because I'm

sticking up for my rights.

I'd like to close just by saying the traffic, I've

seen traffic and also -- and I know it's not all from

them, but that does add to it. It is an additive to

that. I just want to say that when I heard from the

other residents that there was supposed to be -- that

five years ago there was a compromise that, you know,

just don't testify against this, we'll go ahead, this is

the only expansion we're going to have, this is the last,

almost every single resident that I've talked to, and

I've gone to every single house in my subdivision and

College Park as well as Mary Crest,

Golfview, and

Fairview Estates, and they have said that this was a

promise that was made to them, and now there's no back up

for the promise. Well, yeah, promises are made to be

broken.

I also have two letters from two of the residents that

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203

I'd like to submit for the record, and I just want to say

it's -- and, once again, my little famous phrase, I think

it's just about time that we need to all stop and let

Joliet smell the roses instead of the garbage.

THE HEARING OFFICER: For the record, I'm going

to mark that letter you have as Hearing Public Comment

No. 3.

MS. SANDOVAL: Okay.

(Hearing Public Comment No. 3

marked for identification,

12-19-97.)

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. I really

appreciate that.

MR. DAVIS: You're welcome.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Are there any questions?

MS. HARVEY: Yeah. I just have one.

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Harvey

Q. You mentioned that you used to talk to several

county board members who indicated that they were --

A. Not several. I said three.

Q. Can you tell me who they were?

A. Marianne

Cozlik, Edward Kusta -- hold on. I'm

thinking of the other one's name. It's his partner. I

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

204

can't -- hold on.

Bolland, the last name

Bolland.

Q. Bolland?

A. Marianne

Cozlik is a friend of mine, a very

personal friend of mine.

Q. Okay. I don't have anything else. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Does the city?

R E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Desharnais

Q. Just one question, Ms.

Sandoval. Could you state

for the record your address?

A. 1107

Leawood Drive.

Q. And which subdivision is that in?

A. That's Cambridge.

MR. DESHARNAIS: No further questions.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Thank you.

Is there anyone else who wishes to testify?

MR. DELANEY: My name is Robert

Delaney. I

live at 13930

Arbeiter Road.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Can you spell your last

name?

MR. DELANEY: D-e-l-a-n-e-y.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. And you need to be

sworn in.

(Witness sworn.)

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

205

WHEREUPON:

R O B E R T D E L A N E Y,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Delaney

Q. I came to the meeting tonight and originally had

no intention to comment, but I suppose the nature of

these meetings is you sit there and think. The beeping

that the gentleman hears in the morning or at any time of

the day -- I just completed an OSHA safety class. That

is a federal regulation.

When a vehicle, like a truck, is backing up, that's

for the safety of any personnel near that vehicle. The

individual that was aware of the history of landfills,

that gentleman is now deceased, Fred Bennett. He began

operating landfills, it would be east of the current CDT

location, in the 1930s. So there have been landfills

there for some time.

I haul gravel in and out of that stone quarry that

borders the landfill. I've never done business with

CDT. I've never worked for them, and I have seen them

come out on the public right of way and water the road

just to keep the dust down even near the gravel pit and

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

206

all the way up to

Houbolt, and everything I've seen --

they sweep the road and they keep the dust down. I have

no other comment.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. Are there any

questions?

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Desharnais

Q. I'm sorry, Mr.

Delaney. I know you stated your

address, but I could not hear.

A. 13930

Arbeiter Road, A-r-b-e-

i-t-e-r.

Q. And is that in Joliet?

A. No.

Q. And where is that?

A. It is about four miles northwest of the location

of the landfill.

Q. And what's the name of the town?

A. I'm a farmer. It's a rural address.

Q. Oh, okay.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Anything further?

MR. DESHARNAIS: Nothing further.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, Mr.

Delaney.

MS. HARVEY: I don't have any questions. Thank

you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Is there anyone else who

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

207

wishes to make a statement?

MR. SIMON: My name is Steve Simon, S-

i-m-o-n.

I live in Joliet.

(Witness sworn.)

WHEREUPON:

S T E V E S I M O N,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr. Simon

Q. A few years ago, I was a security guard at

Kalucny

Brothers, and I have never smelled anything worse than

Kalucny Brothers. It's not just grease down there. It

is dead horse carcasses, sheep guts, butter, rotting food

from the city of Chicago, meat, bones.

These things come in by the semi-truck load and are

rendered and cooked there and ground up. I've also

worked right next door to

Kalucny Brothers at

Mahoney

Grease a few years after that.

Mahoney Grease picks up restaurant grease. They pick

up bulk animal fat, bulk rotting meat. With this rotting

meat, you get little creatures and a foul odor nothing

like I've ever smelled before, but when I worked at

Kalucny Brothers, I had to be transferred to another

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

208

location because the smell is bad there.

I worked for a scrap company in Joliet and have had to

make deliveries into CDT Landfill. CDT Landfill does

smell like roses compared to

Kalucny Brothers. I can

smell Kalucny Brothers at my house, which is just within

two and a half miles, you know, of the location.

Kalucny Brothers happens to be within a half mile of

the CDT Landfill. I think it's a little bit unfair just

to naturally assume that the biggest guy on the block

might be to blame when there are several companies down

there that are responsible for dust and odors and

traffic.

I work at Amoco Chemical right now, which is down the

street and around the corner from the CDT Landfill. You

get many foul odors in that chemical plant, odors that I

could not put a name on if I had to.

You get dust from a large amount of construction

that's going on there. There's a big picture here to

look at, and I think it's a little bit unfair to put the

finger on one guy, and it just seems convenient to put

the finger on one guy, and I don't think that that would

be a solution to the big picture just -- you know, just a

way to bully somebody around maybe per se and give

somebody a hard time almost. I really don't think CDT,

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

209

in my opinion, is to blame for the big picture here.

You know, I, like Bob, wasn't planning to make a

comment, but after thinking about it and thinking of my

own experiences and where I live and where I've worked

and where I work now, you know, a lot of things aren't

making sense here, and I know there's a lot of people who

are upset and hurt.

They smell the same thing I smell when I go into my

backyard, and I've made the decision to live where I live

without knowing how long it was going to be there, and

it's only on certain occasions, but I recognize those

smells down there, too, and I know that all the smells

combined, there's no way that you can stick your nose up

in the air and say oh, that's this, that's this, and

that's this when all the smells are right next to each

other. I mean, you can throw a rock and hit place next

to place next to place. I'm going on and on, so I'll

stop.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Are there any questions

from -- are there any questions for Mr. Simon?

MS. HARVEY: I don't have any questions.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr.

Desharnais?

MR. DESHARNAIS: One moment.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

210

C R O S

S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr.

Desharnais

Q. Mr. Simon, could you tell us your address?

A. My address is 818

Cochrane, C-o-c-h-r-a-n-e. That

would be exactly east of the landfill. Right outside my

backyard is I-80.

Q. And about how far east that?

A. Two and a half miles maybe.

Q. And you mentioned that you deliver scrap to the

landfill?

A. I have in the past. Back when I was a little bit

younger and had gotten married, I used to work for a

scrap company in Joliet. I no longer work for that

company. I did -- I thought I told you that I work at

Amoco Chemical now, and that's where I smelled a lot of

foul odors, but I would say maybe three or four years ago

that I worked for

Berlinsky Scrap Corporation and have

made deliveries of garbage, bulk plastics, and what not

into that facility.

Q. You mentioned that you had also worked at

Kalucny

Brothers?

A. Yes, sir. I was a security guard there, and I did

request to be transferred somewhere else, otherwise I

would quit.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

211

THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Simon --

BY THE WITNESS:

A. And opted to drive 45 minutes out to Oak Brook to

the Swift-Eckrich building that did not have a fire alarm

system and sat in an empty building all night.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Simon, you've had

your opportunity to testify.

MR. SIMON: I didn't realize --

THE HEARING OFFICER: Please just answer the

questions, and then if you have more to say, we'll let

you go ahead and make another statement, but you need to

just answer the questions asked.

MR. SIMON: I understand.

BY MR. DESHARNAIS:

Q. Do you know if Kalucny Brothers delivers any waste

to the landfill?

A. No. I was just a security guard there.

MR. DESHARNAIS: No further questions.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Anything, Ms. Harvey?

MS. HARVEY: I don't have anything. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you very much.

Is there anyone else who wishes to speak?

MS. SANDERSON: My name is Denise Sanderson,

S-a-n-d-e-r-s-o-n. I want to say first of all --

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

212

THE REPORTER: Can you raise

your right hand?

(Witness sworn.)

WHEREUPON:

D E N I S E S A N D E R S O N,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Sanderson

Q. First of all, I'd like to say that I certainly

sympathize with the people that work at the landfill and

their concerns about losing their jobs.

I've been at a job that's been downsized within the

last eight years. So I can certainly appreciate it. I

just bought my house in Cambridge six months ago. It was

following a long, very costly divorce action. I looked

around a lot before I bought my house because I had to be

really careful with what money I had left.

I didn't know if a landfill was there. I mean, I knew

there was a landfill somewhere. You know, when I made

the offer on the house, I was not aware it was right

across Route 80, you know, and when I found out during

the process between when I made the offer on the house

and the closing, I was told oh, don't worry about the

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

213

contract, it's going to be up. They're not going to

expand it, you know, it's going to be closing. So it

won't be an issue. Okay. Fine. I believed that, you

know.

I'm a nurse. Okay. I'm real concerned about health

issues. I've worked in the Joliet Hospital for over 13

years. I work two jobs. I work one full-time job in

Downers Grove, and I work -- now, I work part-time in

Joliet at the hospital.

I'm concerned about the water quality. Chris Carlson

mentioned the water quality in Joliet in our area. My

son lives in Mary Crest. I can tell you that our water

-- our water quality is not as good as his, and he's

only a few miles away.

I'm closer to the landfill than he is. I don't know

if it's -- the water is like that from the landfill or

not. I buy water. I buy, you know, water at Jewel or

Cub or wherever. I don't drink the water from my house.

I use it when I boil it and stuff, but I don't use it to

drink cold water.

I used to live in the country. I had a well and

septic. You know, I didn't have to scrub things as often

as I do in this house. The water just seems to have some

type of sediment in it, and, again, I don't know if

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

214

that's from the landfill or not.

My son lives in Mary Crest with his family. I took my

grandchildren to a Christmas program a couple nights ago

at St. Jude's on McDonough Street. It smelled horrible

over there. It was -- just walking from the car to walk

them to the school so they could go in, the smell was

horrendous.

I don't know if it's from the landfill or not. I do

know the matter has been brought up about Kalucny and the

other companies in the area that give off bad smells.

They probably do. They're not the issue here though.

The issue is the landfill.

You know, just because one thing smells bad does not

give us license to continue something else that smells

bad, especially when they promised us they would close,

you know. That's what I was told when I bought my house,

they were going to close that landfill.

I'm concerned about my property value. Eventually,

I'm going to have to sell my house. My understanding is

that the property values are not rising as well as they

should. I know that since I've moved in, I've seen so

many houses for sale in that subdivision. It's just hard

to believe that that many people are selling or trying to

sell their houses. I've seen houses with signs up for

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

215

months, and I wondered what the issue was. I guess I'm

finding out one of them anyway.

I really looked forward to having my own house with a

nice little backyard with a patio set. I've had my kids

over. I've got grown kids that are married and have

children. I've had them over for, you know, barbecues.

Sometimes you can't sit outside. I mean, it smells so

bad out there you can't eat, you know, and who wants to

go in the house with a bunch of little kids when it's

really nice outside?

To me, that's affecting my quality of life, and I

don't think that they should be able to expand again and

further impair that. I understand Houbolt Road has had

to be repaired. Perhaps, it's an issue from the garbage

trucks and the weight that goes down them all the time.

There's been garbage littered on the side of the

road. That's certainly unsightly and that certainly

doesn't help people sell houses that are living in a

subdivision and people have to drive down that road to

get to their house to look at it.

I don't know. I guess I can't address the dust

issue. I've lived in the country. We had horses. We

had farm animals. I lived around farmers. So I guess

the dust is not any more than I would normally be used

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

216

to, but the smell is bad, and, like I said, I used to

have horses and I could eat in my backyard. I have

trouble eating in Cambridge. That's all.

THE WITNESS: Are there any questions?

MS. HARVEY: I think I just have a couple

C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Harvey

Q. Ms. Sanderson, do you have city water at your

house?

A. Yes.

Q. It's not a well?

A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. Okay.

A. I pay the city of Joliet water bill all the time.

Q. And just so that I'm clear, who told you that the

landfill was closing?

A. You know, it was friends, and I can't -- it was

actually a supervisor at work. Her name was Deb, and she

was friends with some people that actually are on the

city council, and she's the one that told me that.

I asked my realtor about it. As I said, it was

between, you know, making an offer on the house and

closing on it. My realtor wasn't aware of it. She was

from Romeoville. She wasn't aware of the landfill issue,

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

217

and she just honestly said she didn't know.

So I was talking to some people at work. I work with

some people that live in Joliet, and everybody said oh,

it's going to close. Don't worry about it. It's going

to close. Oh, okay, I won't worry about it then, and now

it's an issue.

MS. HARVEY: I don't have anything further.

Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Desharnais?

R E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr. Desharnais

Q. Could you just state for the record your address?

A. 1149 Gerald, Cambridge.

MR. DESHARNAIS: No further questions.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

MS. SANDERSON: Thank you.

MR. BARDEN: My name is John Barden,

B-a-r-d-e-n. My mailing address is 626 Richard Street,

Joliet, and Madam Hearing Officer --

THE HEARING OFFICER: You need to be sworn in.

MR. BARDEN: Yes. I'm sorry.

(Witness sworn.)

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

218

WHEREUPON:

J O H N B A R D E N,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr. Barden

Q. Madam Hearing Officer, if I get rambling too far,

I would like if you stop me 15 seconds or so after the

warning.

I don't know how far we want to go back with this at

all, but I can go back to the time in what I call garbage

alley 50 years when the landfill was run by a Mr.

Streaky, and it was further east and north, but not very

far because Mr. Bennett owned that property I do believe,

and he also owned the property that adjoins the Geiss

family with the stone operation of Joliet Stone. So

we're really in the same area.

In that landfill back in those days, there was no such

thing as covering garbage. You dumped garbage, and the

other thing you did is you raised pigs down there and the

pigs ate the garbage, and in the summertime, the tomatoes

and the peppers grew on the sides of the hill and there

was a gentleman down there that ran that landfill for

Mr. Streaky that would pick it and send it home with you

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

219

if you happened to stop in to say hello.

Now, that's where I start with this garbage business.

Now, at one time, I did work for a garbage supply

company. I was privileged to sell the first building

that went on CID Landfill to Dean Buntrock himself from

Waste Management.

I also did business with Larry Atlas at Atlas, with

Larry Beck who was also a multimillionaire of Waste

Management. So I do know a little bit about the garbage.

My association with the Geisses is not a friendship.

We're friendly. I've never had as much as a cup of

coffee or a bottle of pop with either one of these

gentlemen, and I haven't broke bread with them.

I've seen them many times in restaurants, especially

Cal and his wife and they see my wife and I. Every time

I meet Cal, many times he'd say come on down, there's

something new at the landfill I want to show you, and the

first time I went down was the scale house.

You put the beautiful scale house in so you could

weigh everything in and out. I don't even know how many

years ago, but I was there. The next time I went down he

met me in the restaurant and he said hey, you've got to

come down. We've got a new foaming, and we're foaming

the garbage now at the end of the day. Come on down and

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

220

take a look. In a month or two, I went down and sure

enough he took me in and he showed me all of the

apparatus involved with the foaming.

The next time I had anything to do with the landfill

was after the council meeting here, and I spoke for the

Geisses at the council meeting, and I happened to have to

go to Cure Supply, who was a -- who has a company down

there that sells things and my wife buys, and I had to

pick him up, and the Geisses are about a mile or

three-quarters of a mile up the road, and I thought

here's a day I'll go up there, and I went up there, and

when I drove in, the area was sprinkled.

I drove down, went in, asked for Cal, he came out. He

said would you like to go? I want to show you the

landfill. I said I don't have time, and I didn't go. I

drove back from Channahon about three weeks or a month

ago, and I was coming up the new road, and I was going to

get on Route 80, and I thought gee, there's the road for

the landfill.

I backed up and went down, pulled in, and he took me

through the landfill from one end to the other, and I'll

tell you it's state-of-the-art. I saw the gas plant

where all the methane gas is accumulated and I guess

turned into power by these big generators I heard

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

221

running.

I also went to the recycling across the road and

couldn't believe my eyes when I went up on the second

floor and saw all of these people picking away, picking

the plastic. I learned a lot that day, and they're

smiling people. They smiled at me, and they had their

religious pictures all hanging up by where they worked

and smiles on their faces.

I went down by the bailor, and I saw where everything

went. I went up on the top where all the leaves were. I

saw the big machine that chews up the paper bags and

mixes up the leaves, but still, I've never done any

business with these people, but I am here tonight because

I've never known a gentleman that I liked any better in

the little bit that I've known him than Mr. Cal Geiss.

And now I want to get into a couple of things. There

was a lady here. I was here all day. Now, there was a

young girl that went to the College of St. Francis that

got up here this afternoon, and she talked about the

school that she was teaching in, and her -- and she had

to teach in school as part of her classes, and she went

up and the fourth grade class couldn't read. Another

class had no books that she was teaching in in the Joliet

area, right here. The third thing she said there was no

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

222

soap in the one school to wash their hands.

Now, I'm going to bring up something about these

people who live over there, and they're so heck bent on

these people not having a landfill. That young lady got

me thinking after this was over about 12:30, and I went

looking, and I was surprised.

Number one, she said it's too bad that the host fee

couldn't be used maybe in the schools in the Joliet

area. So I went to Mr. Frasier, who is the top man in

the city of Joliet and said hey, could this host fee have

been used for the schools in the city of Joliet? Are you

allowed to give any money to the city of Joliet?

He gave me a paper that shows what's been given in the

last five years to educational development, they call it,

from the river boats gaming revenue distribution.

They've given over $5,538,000.

Now, I said what about that host fee that passed?

Well, somebody could have asked for it. If it would have

been decided, there's no reason, there's no statutes that

it couldn't be. So that was my first stop.

The second stop I went over to the county clerk of

Will County. As long as we're on the schools and this

young lady brought it up, I didn't bring schools up, I'm

going to go a little further with it.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

223

What did I find but these people that are over here

talking about the Geisses and giving us all this about a

little smell that during their election, their school

election, on November 4th of this year, 1997, there were

893 eligible voters, registered voters, in precinct 23,

which covers these two subdivisions, and there were 46

ballots cast.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Barden, you were here

earlier, so you heard me make my statement that when

members of the public speak, it has to be relevant to the

issues before the Pollution Control Board, and the voting

record of the people in the Cambridge subdivision is not

relevant to the landfill case.

So if you could move on --

MR. BARDEN: Yes, ma'am. I'd be very happy to.

THE HEARING OFFICER: -- to issues that are

relevant.

MR. BARDEN: Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. BY MR.

BARDEN:

Q. Kalucny Brothers has been mentioned here several

times and also Mahoney. I believe they're right next to

one another. At one time, they were one in the same.

Kalucny Brothers' address is in the Joliet telephone

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

224

directory. It's 2324 Mound Road.

The address of the landfill is 2851 Mound Road. So

they're fairly close together as far as I can see, and

the only other thing that I would like to say is today's

Herald News, I think this has something to do with it,

November 19th -- December 19th, Friday, no chance of mega

landfill in the arsenal, and the county board is

mentioned here many times today, and the county board

says the county board, which has appointed a majority of

the members of the Joliet Arsenal Development Authority

now wants the group to explain what happened in the land

deal that provided the company without any bids and any

questioning.

So they're going to bring these people in, and what my

feeling is of these people's problem is a part of this

problem. These politicians that voted this down the

other night here, they weren't interested in smell. It

was done for some political reason that I have no idea,

but when I saw the voting that was done by these people

over there, I knew that they certainly weren't interested

in the city of Joliet and any smell, and thank you very

much for the opportunity to talk in front of you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. Are there any

questions for Mr. Barden?

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

225

MS. HARVEY: I don't have any questions.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Desharnais, did you

have questions?

MR. DESHARNAIS: Please hold on a minute.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Barden?

MR. BARDEN: Oh, I'm very sorry.

C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Angelo

Q. Just a couple questions, Mr. Barden.

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. You mentioned visiting with a Mr. Frasier?

A. Yes.

Q. Who you described as -- do you know what his

position is with the city?

A. He's the comptroller, I believe, for the city of

Joliet. He's the owner -- I think also he owns some

plants in the city of Joliet. I think he's the

comptroller.

Q. And he told you something about payments that have

been made by the gaming interest on behalf of the school

systems?

A. Yes. This is from his office, and this is all the

people, all the companies, and all the schools that have

been given money from the gaming industry.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

226

Q. From the gaming industry. Thank you.

A. From the city of Joliet on money from the gaming

industry.

Q. Thank you. Did you know that the CDT Landfill was

fined by the Pollution Control Board for expanding its

operation in violation of the Illinois Environmental

Protection Act?

A. Not until I heard it this afternoon in here.

Q. So that was the first you'd heard of it?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And where is Richard Street in Joliet? How far

from the landfill is that?

A. Richard Street is, I'm going to say, about three

miles east on Route 80.

Q. And that's -- so you live about three miles east?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Do you know whether the mega landfill that you

referred to is the same as the Will County landfill

that's referred to in the county's solid waste plan?

A. Two complete different landfills.

Q. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Anything further? Thank

you.

MR. BARDEN: Thank you, ma'am.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

227

THE HEARING OFFICER: Is there anyone else who

wishes to speak?

We need to take a five minute break. I apologize.

Our court reporter is out of paper.

(Break taken.)

THE HEARING OFFICER: Can you please state your

name and spell it for the record?

MS. WILKEY: My name is Lisa Wilkey, L-i-s-a,

W-i-l-k-e-y.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. And please be

sworn in.

(Witness sworn.)

WHEREUPON:

L I S A W I L K E Y,

called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

deposeth and saith as follows:

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N

by Ms. Wilkey

Q. I just would like to say that for the past eight

and a half, nine years I have been a resident in College

Park, and, unfortunately, my parents, my mom and dad, are

both for it, but they were unable to attend tonight.

So I'm here on behalf of my parents and myself, and as

a resident of College Park saying that we are for the CDT

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228

Landfill expansion. As far as smell, an odor, I was

given advice, and I took Mound Road from Larkin Avenue,

and I came through -- you know, CDT is on the other side

and there's businesses on the other side, and this smell

came from the Larkin side.

I don't want to name businesses or anything, but I

think maybe they're wrongly accused or what not, and as

far as dust, we've never had a problem, my mother and my

father, me, my sister, and we've had a nephew and they

used to live in there and then they moved out, not due to

any landfill or anything, but we -- I've had a nephew who

grew up in College Park for five years, and we've never

had a problem with dust or medical or anything, and

that's all I have to say.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. Are there any

questions?

C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N

by Mr. Desharnais

Q. Ms. Wilkey, could you tell us what your address

is?

A. Yes. It's 948 Leawood, L-e-a-w-o-o-d, Drive,

Joliet, Illinois 60436.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Anything further?

MR. DESHARNAIS: Nothing further.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

229

MS. HARVEY: I don't have any questions. Thank

you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. Is there

anyone else who wishes to speak at this time?

Okay. Then we are going to -- oh, yes. Ms. Harvey?

MS. HARVEY: I didn't want to interrupt you,

but I wanted to -- I have one additional clarification

point before you close the record right now.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.

MS. HARVEY: I wanted to ask because the public

comment period runs until the 31st after the date that

our brief is due, I assume -- do I assume correctly that

we can respond to any written public comments in our

reply brief?

THE HEARING OFFICER: That was my intention,

yes.

MS. HARVEY: Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: If there is a need to do

that.

If there are no other members of the public who wish

to speak, then we will go back to the attorneys, and I

believe we're ready for the closing statements unless

there's anything else that needs to be brought to my

attention. No. Okay.

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

230

MS. HARVEY: Madam Hearing Officer, on behalf

of CDT Landfill, I would like to reiterate that we will

reserve the bulk of our arguments for our written briefs,

but we continue to believe, and believe that our brief

will demonstrate, that the manifest weight of the

evidence in this case shows that the City of Joliet's

decision is not supportable.

We've heard an extensive opening statement from Ms.

Angelo this morning, and I want to note that we disagree

with her characterization of the record. We continue to

believe that our record fully supports a finding that all

of the criteria have been satisfied, and we must

reiterate that the unrebutted and overwhelming expert

testimony in this record supports a finding that we have

satisfied all the criteria.

As I said, we will provide record cites and additional

argument for the board in our briefs, but we feel

strongly that the City of Joliet's decision should be

reversed based upon the board's review under the manifest

weight of the evidence standard. Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

MS. ANGELO: Madam Hearing Officer, I won't

belabor the issues that I did raise earlier today. I

think we still believe strongly that there has been a

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

231

fatal failure in the showing by CDT to address the issues

that the board -- that the city needed to have addressed

and that the board needs to have addressed to render a

decision in their favor.

We note that consistently throughout the record as

well as in the comments that you've taken tonight by way

of testimony and earlier today you have had this

continuing representation by people that they believed

that this landfill was going to closed.

That has been a theme throughout the dealings of CDT

for apparently a number of years. We think this is a

central problem with the application that has been made

when they have relied, as we've said earlier, on the fact

that this is an existing facility and that, therefore,

the impacts that they are commenting on for the board are

existing impacts. It simply isn't borne out by their own

history.

We will fully deal with all of those issues as well as

those we discussed this morning in our briefing.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Before we -- did

you have something else, Ms. Harvey?

MS. HARVEY: No.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Before we close the

record, I did want to make clear that the materials

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

232

submitted by way of the administrative notice I'm going

to be using exhibit numbers that were actually on them.

I believe the pictures were Exhibit 1, and it was one

through -- one dash and then, you know, A through -- and

then the administrative part of it from the City of

Joliet was Exhibit 2, and just to make that clear for the

board, that's how they will be marked.

MS. HARVEY: And I'm clear that Exhibit 1 is an

offer of proof only?

THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes.

MS. HARVEY: Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Is there anything

further? I would note the change in the briefing

schedule as we discussed earlier, and just for the

board's records so that they have it if they're looking

for it quickly, CDT will file its initial brief on

December 29th. The city will file its response brief on

January 14th, and the reply brief from CDT will be filed

on January 20th.

Public comments are due by December 31st, which means

they must be mailed by December 31st, and I believe that

that concludes the hearing unless --

MR. DESHARNAIS: Madam Hearing Officer, just to

clarify the record, we would renew our objection to your

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233

denial of our motion to admit the pictures as exhibits.

THE HEARING OFFICER: I would just remind you

that the procedural rules say that you need to make that

in writing to the board, and so reiterating it orally

won't help at this point. You need to make it in

writing.

MR. DESHARNAIS: Okay.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Is there anything

further? Okay. If there are no other members of the

public who wish to speak, then the hearing is adjourned,

and the record will close on December -- January 20th

with the final brief. Thank you.

(Which were all the proceedings

had in the above-entitled matter.)

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

234

STATE OF ILLINOIS )

) SS.

COUNTY OF C O

O K )

I, GEANNA M. PIGNONE-IAQUINTA, do

hereby state that I am a court reporter doing business in

the City of Chicago, County of Cook, and State of

Illinois; that I reported by means of machine shorthand

the proceedings held in the foregoing cause, and that the

foregoing is a true and correct transcript of

my shorthand notes so taken as aforesaid.

__________________________

Geanna M. Pignone-Iaquinta

Notary Public, Cook County, IL

Illinois License No. 084-004096

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO

before me

this_____day

of__________, A.D., 1997.

___________________________

Notary Public

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292