1 BEFORE THE ILLINOIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD
2
3 PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF ILLINOIS,
4 Petitioner,
5 vs. No. PCB 95-091
6 BELL SPORTS, INC. and WASTE HAULING
7 LANDFILL, INC., and WASTE HAULING, INC.,
8 Respondents.
9 vs.
10 WASTE HAULING LANDFILL, INC.,
11 and WASTE HAULING, INC.,
12 Cross-claimants,
13 vs.
14 BELL SPORTS, INC.,
15 Cross-Respondents.
16
17
Proceedings held on March 4, 1997 at 9:30
18 a.m., continuing from March 3, 1997, at the
Illinois State Library, Illinois Authors Meeting
19 Room, 300 South Second Street, Springfield,
Illinois, before the Honorable Michael L. Wallace,
20 Hearing Officer.
21 Reported by: Darlene M.
Niemeyer, CSR, RPR
CSR License No.: 084-003677
22
23 KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
11 North 44th Street
24 Belleville, IL 62226
(618) 277-0190
1
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 A P
P E A R A N C E S
2
STATE OF ILLINOIS, OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY
3 GENERAL
BY: Thomas Davis, Esq.
4 Chief, Environmental Bureau
and
5
Maria M. Menotti, Esq.
Assistant Attorney General,
6 Environmental Bureau
500 South Second Street
7 Springfield, Illinois 62706
On behalf of the People of the State of
8 Illinois.
9 ILLINOIS ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
BY: Gregory Richardson, Esq.
10 Assistant Counsel
2200 Churchill Road
11 Springfield, Illinois 62794-9276
On behalf of the People of the State of
12 Illinois.
13 SIDLEY & AUSTIN
BY: Byron F. Taylor, Esq.
14 Ira Jack
Nahmod, Esq.
One First National Plaza
15 Chicago, Illinois 60603
On behalf of Respondent/
16 Cross-Respondent, Bell Sports, Inc.
17 WILLOUGHBY, LATSHAW & HOPKINS, P.C.
BY: K. Michael
Latshaw, Esq.
18 502 West Prairie
Decatur, Illinois 62525
19 On behalf of Respondents/Cross-Claimants,
Waste Hauling Landfill, Inc. and Waste
20 Hauling, Inc.
21 WEBBER & THIES, P.C.
BY:
Phillip R. Van Ness, Esq.
22 202 Lincoln Square
Urbana, Illinois 61803-0189
23 On behalf of Respondents/Cross-Claimants,
Waste Hauling Landfill, Inc. and Waste
24 Hauling, Inc.
2
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 I N D E X
2 WITNESS PAGE NUMBER
3 Steven C.
Townsend (cont.) 5, 9, 10, 11
4
5 Jeffrey S. Turner 14, 55, 66, 70, 72
6
7 Robert G.
Krimmel 77, 108, 109, 114
8
9 E X H I B I T S
10 NUMBER MARKED FOR
I.D. ENTERED
11 People's Exhibit 8 19 23
People's Exhibit 9 31 33
12 People's Exhibit 10 38 40
People's Exhibit 11 48 51
13 People's Exhibit 12 86 (
I.D. only) --
People's Exhibit 13 100 107
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
3
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 P R O C E
E D I N G S
2 (March 4, 1997; 9:30 a.m.)
3 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Pursuant to
4 adjournment, I now call Docket PCB 95-91.
5 This is the matter of The People of the
6 State of Illinois versus Bell Sports, Inc., Waste
7 Hauling Landfill, Inc. and Waste Hauling, Inc. and
8 the counter complaint cross-claim of Waste Hauling
9 Landfill, Inc., Waste Hauling, Inc. versus Bell
10 Sports, Inc.
11 Show the same appearances as yesterday.
12 I see no new appearances.
13 Are there any preliminary matters, Ms.
14 Menotti?
15 MS. MENOTTI: Nothing.
16 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Mr. Van
Ness?
17 MR. VAN NESS: No.
18 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Mr. Taylor?
19 MR. TAYLOR: No.
20 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right.
21 Then we will recall Mr.
Townsend to the stand.
22 Mr.
Townsend, you are still under oath.
23 THE WITNESS: Okay.
24 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: And you may
4
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 begin your redirect.
2 MS. MENOTTI: Thank you.
3 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
4 BY MS. MENOTTI:
5 Q Mr.
Townsend, what is the general purpose
6 of a landfill?
7 A It is disposal of refuse by burial.
8 Q Have you had the opportunity -- in the
9 course of your contact with the Waste Hauling
10 Landfill, have you reviewed the permit for the
11 contours of the landfill?
12 A Yes, I have. For the permitted contours,
13 as the approved permit?
14 Q Correct.
15 A Yes, I have.
16 Q Does this permit show the boundaries, the
17 permitted boundaries of the landfill?
18 A Yes, it does.
19 Q Is the Waste Hauling Landfill constructed
20 within these boundaries?
21 A No, I do not believe it is.
22 Q Could you please tell me where it is not
23 constructed within the boundaries?
24 A Yes. It is higher than the permitted
5
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 contours allow it to be. Well, starting on the
2 south end, if you wanted to go from there, it would
3 be higher. It goes upward where it shouldn't. And
4 along the northwest corner or the corner of the
5 landfill on the northwest part of fill area number
6 two, the higher area was also fill area number
7 two. It is too wide.
8 Q Have you ever seen refuse deposited in
9 these areas that you just mentioned?
10 A Yes, I have seen refuse as late as Friday
11 on the vertical area. I have seen refuse along the
12 west edge, I think, in 1987. That is the only time
13 I have actually seen exposed refuse there. I may
14 have, but I don't recall seeing it any other time.
15 Q Have you ever, during the course of your
16 inspection, cited
unpermitted disposal as a
17 violation at this landfill?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Regarding the area to the west and
20 northwest, have you observed any leaks of
leachate
21 from this area?
22 A From the northwest portion?
23 Q From the west, northwest edge of the --
24 A I have seen leaks along the western edge
6
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 of the north slope, and the northern portion of the
2 west slope both.
3 Q In general, what does a
leachate leak --
4 or a
leachate seep indicate to you?
5 A Well, the
leachate seep indicates to me
6 that there is a problem managing the liquid that
7 you would want to have contained or at least
8 controlled by the landfill as it is leaking out.
9 Q What causes the buildup of
leachate?
10 MR. LATSHAW: I think I am going to have
11 to impose an objection. I think -- it is my
12 recollection, and maybe I am wrong, but I think we
13 have been through all of this, haven't we?
14 MS. MENOTTI: I am sorry? I didn't
15 hear.
16 MR. LATSHAW: I think we have been
17 through all of this yesterday with this gentleman's
18 testimony. I don't see the point of revisiting
19 it. He has testified to those very things, I
20 believe, in some detail with regard to those
21 inspection reports.
22 MS. MENOTTI: I am sorry. I can't hear
23 him.
24 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: He is objecting
7
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 that this was all covered yesterday on his direct
2 testimony.
3 MS. MENOTTI: I am just clarifying --
4 trying to clarify for the record in response to Mr.
5 Latshaw's cross-examination yesterday, and I don't
6 think that this is the same questions that I asked
7 yesterday. We were not talking about the west edge
8 of the landfill at that point in time.
9 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Do you have a
10 lengthy series of questions concerning
leachate?
11 MS. MENOTTI: I just have two more
12 questions.
13 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right.
14 Then finish up with this line.
15 MS. MENOTTI: Okay.
16 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Mr. Townsend, I will
17 repeat the last question. What causes the buildup
18 of
leachate?
19 A What causes the buildup of
leachate? In
20 essence,
leachate is water or liquid that soaks
21 through what is buried, the refuse, and removes
22 some of what those constituents are, and it
23 varies.
24 There are several factors. One is the
8
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 amount of water that gets into the
leachate. Two
2 would be the construction of the fill's management
3 system or a way of containing the
leachate, as it
4 is constructed to either contain or remove and
5 control the
leachate.
6 For instance, if there was a removal
7 system, you wouldn't have a buildup, like a
8 leachate well, for instance. Basically, it is
9 controlled by the liquid that comes in. That would
10 be the major factor that would control the volume.
11 MS. MENOTTI: Thank you. I have nothing
12 further.
13 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Nothing further
14 on redirect?
15 MS. MENOTTI: Right.
16 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Re-cross?
17 MR. LATSHAW: One question, please.
18 RECROSS EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. LATSHAW:
20 Q Mr.
Townsend, are you aware that the --
21 whether the permit of the Waste Hauling Landfill
22 requires a
leachate retraction or extraction system
23 or removal system?
24 A I don't recall any in their permit.
9
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 MR. LATSHAW: Okay. Thank you. That's
2 all I have.
3 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Mr. Taylor?
4 MR. TAYLOR: No, no further questions.
5 MR. DAVIS: Excuse me just a moment,
6 please.
7 (Mr. Davis and Ms.
Menotti
8 confer briefly.)
9 MS. MENOTTI: I just have one follow-up
10 question, if that's all right.
11 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: What is it in
12 regard to? I normally don't --
13 MS. MENOTTI: In regard to Mr.
Latshaw's
14 question.
15 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Go ahead and
16 ask it. Go ahead and ask your question.
17 MS. MENOTTI: Okay.
18 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
19 BY MS. MENOTTI:
20 Q Mr.
Townsend, in response to Mr.
21 Latshaw's question, you said that you were not
22 aware of any requirement in the permit for a
23 leachate system. Would this be a requirement for a
24 closure or a post-closure care plan?
10
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 MR. LATSHAW: I will object to the
2 question. I am not sure he is here to offer
3 testimony with regard to closure, post-closure
4 requirements. I am not sure that that is -- well,
5 it is certainly beyond the scope of my re-cross.
6 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Sustained.
7 MS. MENOTTI: That was the only question.
8 EXAMINATION
9 BY HEARING OFFICER WALLACE:
10 Q Mr.
Townsend, before you get off, in your
11 response to Ms.
Menotti's second to the last
12 question, I was a little confused.
13 Does
leachate occur from water going from
14 the top down in the landfill? Is that what you
15 were trying to say?
16 A Not necessarily.
Leachate occurs from
17 water entering the landfill and coming in contact
18 with the garbage. If the water is prevented from
19 entering the landfill, which is pretty much -- some
20 water is going to get in, unless you are using a
21 completely impermeable cover, which nobody I know
22 of uses. If water gets in,
leachate can be
23 generated, because that is what happens, the water
24 comes in contact with the garbage.
11
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 Q All right.
2 A It could come in either from the top via
3 rain or, for instance, if you had a flood it could
4 come in from the side. It could also be if there
5 is a lot of liquid in the waste there could be some
6 generated just from that.
7 Q Then the extraction -- in an extraction
8 system, you put a well in to bring the liquid up
9 and then dispose of it?
10 A Yes, that's done on a lot of the more
11 modern -- like a Subtitle D type site would have
12 something like that. Older sites generally just
13 put additional cover down or something like that or
14 recompact and recover areas, and then have a plan
15 to monitor and do that over again, if necessary.
16 Q What does the monitoring consist of?
17 A The easiest way to do it would be in
18 addition to a monitor well system, to determine if
19 anything is getting beyond the borders underground,
20 would be to have someone periodically, for
21 instance, maybe once a quarter, go out and look at
22 the site and see if something is popping out of the
23 fill itself.
24 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right.
12
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 Thank you, Mr.
Townsend. You may step down.
2 (The witness left the stand.)
3 MS. MENOTTI: I was unable to reach Mr.
4 Turner last evening to tell him that the hearing
5 had been pushed back to 9:30 this morning, so he is
6 due to arrive shortly.
7 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Okay.
8 MS. MENOTTI: He is the next witness that
9 the State intended to call.
10 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right.
11 Let's go off the record and wait for Mr. Turner,
12 then.
13 (Whereupon a short recess was
14 taken.)
15 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Back on the
16 record.
17 Please call your next witness.
18 MS. MENOTTI: The People call Mr. Jeff
19 Turner.
20 (Whereupon the witness was
21 sworn by Hearing Officer
22 Wallace.)
23 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Speak clearly
24 and loudly so we all can here.
13
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 THE WITNESS: Okay.
2 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: You may begin.
3 J E F
F R E Y S T E W A R T
T U R N E R,
4 having been first duly sworn by the Hearing
5 Officer,
saith as follows:
6 DIRECT EXAMINATION
7 BY MS. MENOTTI:
8 Q For the record, could you please state
9 your name.
10 A Jeffrey
Stewart Turner.
11 Q What is your educational background, Mr.
12 Turner?
13 A I have a Bachelor's Degree in Geology
14 from the University of Illinois, and a Master's
15 Degree in Geology from the University of Missouri.
16 Q And who is your current employer?
17 A The Illinois Environmental Protection
18 Agency.
19 Q How long have you worked for the Illinois
20 EPA?
21 A It will be ten years in October.
22 Q What is your current position?
23 A I am a regional geologist. Also, the
24 title -- the payroll title is Environmental
14
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 Protection Specialist with the Bureau of Land, the
2 Champaign Regional Office.
3 Q What does your position involve?
4 A Inspecting various types of sites
5 including landfills, open dumps, RCRA facilities,
6 injection well facilities.
7 Q Okay. How long have you been in this
8 position?
9 A It will be six years in June.
10 Q Did you hold any positions prior to that?
11 A Yes, I used to work in the Division of
12 Labs, also in Champaign.
13 Q Have you, during the course of your
14 employment with the Agency, participated or
15 received any training?
16 A Yes, I have.
17 Q Could you please describe it?
18 A I have received in-house training on
19 various aspects of Bureau of Land programs. I have
20 also attended a number of seminars outside of the
21 Agency.
22 Q Could you generally describe your duties
23 as a field inspector?
24 A Basically I am assigned various sites to
15
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 do inspections at by my supervisor. I determine
2 what the compliance requirements are for those
3 sites. It is basically a matter of what program
4 the site is regulated under, whether it is a solid
5 waste landfill, a hazardous waste facility or
6 whatever. I go out and take a look at the site and
7 verify if it is complying with the appropriate
8 Regulations and its permit, and generally then I
9 produce an inspection report that is submitted to
10 the Agency.
11 Q Is it your general practice to record
12 your observations that you make during a site
13 investigation for that report?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Do you record these observations while
16 you are actually at the site or do you record them
17 after you complete your visit?
18 A I take some field notes during an
19 inspection which are later converted into the
20 inspection report.
21 Q What happens once you generate the
22 inspection report?
23 A It is submitted to my supervisor, who
24 reviews it. It is then passed on to headquarters
16
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 in Springfield, and depending on the content of the
2 report, some type of letter may be issued to the
3 facility that is the subject of the report.
4 Q Do you keep a copy of the report for your
5 own file?
6 A Yes, we do.
7 Q Are these the type of reports that the
8 Agency has you prepare in the ordinary course of
9 your inspections of facilities?
10 A Could you run that by me again, please?
11 Q All right. The inspection reports that
12 we have been talking about, are they the type of
13 reports that the Agency has you prepare in your
14 regular course of conducting inspections?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Are these inspection reports something
17 that in the regular course of Agency business are
18 kept within the Agency files?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Mr. Turner, are you familiar with the
21 Waste Hauling Landfill?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Were you ever assigned to inspect it?
24 A Yes.
17
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 Q Can you give me a span of time during
2 which you have conducted inspections of this
3 landfill?
4 A Do you want exact dates?
5 Q If you know the exact dates.
6 A I can produce them if I can look at my
7 records, my notes.
8 Q Before we get into exact dates, generally
9 when did you start inspecting it?
10 A Roughly it would be July of 1991 was the
11 first time that I was there, and then again in
12 April of 1992, and twice in May of 1992, and once
13 in July of 1992, and once in September of 1992.
14 Q During the course of the inspections that
15 you conducted at the Waste Hauling Landfill, did
16 you note conditions that existed at the landfill?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And did you, during the course of these
19 inspections, generally ever find violations at this
20 landfill?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Are these the types of things that you
23 would include in your inspection reports?
24 A Yes.
18
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 Q Did you have the opportunity to visit the
2 landfill specifically on July 15th, 1991?
3 A Yes, I believe I did.
4 Q Did you generate a report regarding that
5 inspection?
6 A Yes, I did.
7 Q If I showed you the report, would you be
8 able to identify it?
9 A Yes, I would.
10 MS. MENOTTI: Would you mark this,
11 please.
12 (Whereupon said document was
13 duly marked for purposes of
14 identification as People's
15 Exhibit 8 as of this date.)
16 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Mr. Turner, I show you
17 what has been marked as People's Exhibit Number 8.
18 Would you please identify this document?
19 A Yes. That's my inspection report as a
20 result of my July 15, 1991 inspection.
21 Q Did you personally generate this report?
22 A Yes, I did.
23 Q Is this the type of inspection report
24 that you would generate for Agency files?
19
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 A Yes, it is.
2 Q Is this the type of report that is
3 ordinarily prepared in the regular course of Agency
4 business?
5 A Yes, it is.
6 Q When you prepared this report, did you
7 prepare it contemporaneously with or shortly after
8 conducting the inspection of July 15th of 1991?
9 A It was within a number of months
10 afterwards.
11 Q Could you please look at the report and
12 tell me if it appears to be a true and accurate
13 copy of the report you generated?
14 A By and large it is. It doesn't appear to
15 have my site sketch, but it has the narrative and
16 the photo mount ups that I prepared.
17 Q I am sorry. What was the last part of
18 your answer?
19 A It does have the narrative and the photos
20 that I prepared. It doesn't seem to have the
21 little map of the site that I prepared, or the
22 checklist, for that matter.
23 MS. MENOTTI: I apologize for the delay,
24 Mr. Hearing Officer. The Attorney General's copy
20
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 did not match the Agency's original copy. I would
2 ask that the original be attached to the exhibit,
3 for identification, and I will take it and show it
4 to opposing Counsel.
5 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right.
6 What are you -- are there pieces missing?
7 MS. MENOTTI: The document that Mr.
8 Turner just looked at it was not included as part
9 of the Attorney General's files, and I have the
10 original, the Agency original.
11 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Okay. Why
12 don't you -- how many are -- is that what he called
13 the site sketch and the checklist?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Okay. Do you
16 wish to include that as part of People's Exhibit
17 Number 8?
18 MS. MENOTTI: Correct. That would be a
19 complete copy of the report.
20 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right.
21 Show the copies that you have or the documents that
22 you have to the opposing Counsel, and then let's
23 see if the witness has a complete inspection report
24 then.
21
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 (Ms.
Menotti showed the
2 documents to Mr. Taylor, Mr.
3
Latshaw and Mr. Van
Ness.)
4 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Mr. Turner, I am going
5 to hand you the documents that you said did not
6 appear with the copies that I had marked. Could
7 you please look at them and tell me if that would
8 make your inspection report complete?
9 A (Witness reviewed documents.) I believe
10 it would.
11 Q Does this report reflect the observations
12 you noted during your inspection on July 15th,
13 1991?
14 A Yes, it does.
15 MS. MENOTTI: At this point, Mr. Hearing
16 Officer, I would ask that this be admitted as a
17 record of the Agency.
18 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Any objection?
19 MR. VAN NESS: No.
20 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: I am sorry?
21 MR. VAN NESS: No. I am sorry.
22 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Mr. Taylor?
23 MR. TAYLOR: No.
24 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: People's
22
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 Exhibit Number 8 is admitted into evidence.
2 (Whereupon said document was
3 admitted into evidence as
4 People's Exhibit 8 as of this
5 date.)
6 MS. MENOTTI: Thank you.
7 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Mr. Turner, could you
8 please summarize what you saw during your visit on
9 this date at the landfill?
10 A The site consists of what at that time
11 was an active landfill plus an older portion to the
12 east of the active landfill. And along that older
13 portion a trench had been dug along the west side
14 of it. There was
leachate in the trench and there
15 was exposed refuse hanging in the wall of the
16 trench.
17 The main landfill, the active landfill at
18 that time, had exposed refuse on it in various
19 places, as well. Also, the active landfill
20 appeared to be, as I later learned from the
21 approved plans, it appeared to be quite a bit
22 larger than it should have been. In other words,
23 it was outside its permitted bounds.
24 Q In what respect --
23
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 MR. LATSHAW: Again, if I may, just for
2 the record, I want to again interpose an objection
3 to testimony with regard to
leachate as being going
4 to the issues that are not alleged in Counts 5 and
5 6, and in order to -- I would like that shown as a
6 continuing objection to that line of questioning,
7 sir.
8 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right. I
9 will note for the record that a continuing
10 objection has been made to questions concerning
11 leachate.
12 At this time I shall overrule the
13 objection, and you may continue to ask questions
14 about the
leachate. But keep in mind to save some
15 time we won't go through each and every question,
16 but an objection will be noted for each one.
17 MR. LATSHAW: Thank you.
18 MR. VAN NESS: Okay. Thank you.
19 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Can you characterize
20 what you -- specifically what you mean by
21 unpermitted -- or disposal beyond the limits? You
22 said there was
unpermitted disposal and that the
23 landfill appeared larger. Can you explain that?
24 A According to the approved plans, if you
24
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 are entering the property from the access road on
2 the south, the approved slope and contours of the
3 landfill should cause the fill to slope downward
4 toward the north, toward the river. If you are
5 standing at the south, at no point should you have
6 to look up to see the top of the landfill. That
7 was not the case, however. You would have to look
8 up from the south to see the top of it.
9 Q Did you cite that as a violation in your
10 report?
11 A I don't recall that I did on this first
12 one. At the time that I made that inspection I
13 don't believe I was familiar with that
14 requirement. I knew there was an allegation that
15 it was
overheight, but I had not yet seen the
16 approved plans, and not knowing the details of it,
17 I didn't really know any way to ascertain on the
18 overheight allegation at that time.
19 Q Do any of the photographs attached to
20 your report illustrate the violations that you had
21 just talked about?
22 A Are you referring to the
overheight or
23 just in general?
24 Q In general, the violations that you just
25
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 summarized, do any of the pictures depict those
2 violations?
3 A This picture here on roll number 11,
4 photo number 9, depicts uncovered refuse.
5 Q Does it show -- indicate where the
6 picture was taken or what area of the landfill we
7 are looking at?
8 A Yes, this was in the trench that I
9 referred to that had been excavated, and that
10 particular photo -- I believe that this is it
11 here. Due to the
xeroxing of it, my numbering for
12 the photo has gone off the edge of the page, but I
13 believe that is it.
14 MR. VAN NESS: Could we ask the witness
15 to hold it up so we can see it? We have quite poor
16 copies of the photos.
17 Oh, you are referring to the map, too.
18 Okay. Thank you.
19 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Would you also
20 hold the photo up that you are referring to?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sure. It is the top
22 photo.
23 MR. LATSHAW: Does that have a page?
24 MR. VAN NESS: Does it have a page
26
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 number?
2 THE WITNESS: No, it does not have a page
3 number, but there is a number 14 beside the photo.
4 MR. LATSHAW: That's our problem, because
5 the copy is so bad we can't see the numbers.
6 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Mr. Turner,
7 could you hand me that report?
8 THE WITNESS: Certainly.
9 MR. VAN NESS: Okay. Here it is.
10 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Let's go off
11 the record a minute.
12 (Discussion off the record.)
13 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Back on the
14 record.
15 All right. Please continue.
16 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Were there any other
17 photographs, besides the one that you just
18 mentioned?
19 A Yes, I believe there are. The one I have
20 here numbered is number 18, and it was from my roll
21 number 12, the first photo of that roll. Again, it
22 shows uncovered refuse. That photo -- let me see
23 if I can identify that on the map for you. That
24 one was taken here toward the southeast.
27
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 MR. VAN NESS: Show the photo again,
2 please, if I can find it. Okay. Thank you.
3 THE WITNESS:
Uh-huh. My photo number
4 21, which was roll 12, exposure number 4, shows
5 exposed refuse on the south face of the main
6 landfill. It would also be inadequate depth of
7 final cover. That was taken in this area
8 (indicating).
9 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Would you
10 describe the area that you are pointing at, Mr.
11 Turner?
12 THE WITNESS: It is the south face of the
13 active landfill at that time.
14 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Mr. Turner, in your
15 opinion, do any of these violations have an impact
16 upon the environment?
17 MR. LATSHAW: I will object to the
18 question as being -- not stated in the form of the
19 proper standard. If this man is being offered as
20 an opinion witness, he certainly has to base his
21 opinion upon a scientific basis.
22 MS. MENOTTI: I didn't hear the last
23 part. I am sorry. Mr.
Latshaw's voice is getting
24 lost. I am having problems hearing him.
28
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Would you
2 repeat your objection, please, sir.
3 MR. LATSHAW: My objection is that the
4 question is framed in terms of the improper
5 standard. I believe he was disclosed to us as an
6 opinion witness and the opinions must be expressed
7 on a basis -- or a reasonable basis of scientific
8 certainty, at least.
9 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Response?
10 MS. MENOTTI: The opinions -- excuse me.
11 The witness' opinion is based on his firsthand
12 observations at the landfill. I am asking if, in
13 his opinion, he saw any -- if he -- I am trying to
14 think -- I don't remember what my exact word was,
15 but does he think there were any environmental
16 impacts as a result of the violations that he saw.
17 Based on his experience he should be able to give
18 some kind of technical opinion as to whether or not
19 these things have any kind of impact. That's his
20 job.
21 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: The objection
22 is overruled.
23 Mr. Turner, please answer the question.
24 THE WITNESS: The uncovered refuse can
29
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 create an attraction for disease factors, such as
2 birds or rodents, insects. Also by being exposed,
3 they present potential for the creation of
4 contaminated runoff.
5 MS. MENOTTI: Before I move on -- we are
6 finished with that exhibit, Mr. Turner.
7 Just for the record, Mr. Hearing Officer,
8 I understand that opposing Counsel does not have
9 actual copies of these pictures, but I would like
10 to note that at all times they have had the
11 opportunity to pay for actual photographs to be
12 made of the pictures that are attached to the
13 inspection report.
14 The photocopies that were tendered during
15 discovery are the best that we could make by making
16 photocopies of them. And I just wanted that
17 reflected for the record.
18 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right.
19 Thank you.
20 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Directing your attention
21 to a different date, Mr. Turner, you indicated that
22 during May of 1992 you had the opportunity to visit
23 the landfill?
24 A That's correct.
30
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 Q Did you have the opportunity on May 8th
2 and 12th to conduct an inspection of the Waste
3 Hauling Landfill?
4 A Yes, I did.
5 Q Did you generate a report with regard to
6 this inspection?
7 A Yes, I did.
8 Q Would you be able to identify it if I
9 showed you --
10 A Yes, I would.
11 Q -- the report?
12 MS. MENOTTI: Could you mark this,
13 please.
14 (Whereupon said document was
15 duly marked for purposes of
16 identification as People's
17 Exhibit 9 as of this date.)
18 MS. MENOTTI: Did you gentlemen want to
19 look at the exhibit?
20 MR. LATSHAW: I beg your pardon?
21 MS. MENOTTI: Would you like to look at
22 the exhibit?
23 (Ms.
Menotti showed Exhibit
24 Number 9 to Mr.
Latshaw, Mr.
31
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 Van
Ness and Mr. Taylor.)
2 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) I hand you what has been
3 marked as People's Exhibit Number 9. Do you
4 recognize that document?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Could you please identify it for the
7 record?
8 A That is an inspection report that I
9 prepared based on inspections conducted on the 8th
10 and 12th of May of 1992.
11 Q Is this a report that you personally
12 generated?
13 A Yes, it is.
14 Q Is this the type of report that is
15 generated and maintained for Illinois EPA files?
16 A Yes, it is.
17 Q Is this report the type of report that is
18 ordinarily prepared in the regular course of Agency
19 business?
20 A Yes, it is.
21 Q Was this report prepared
22 contemporaneously with or shortly after you
23 conducted your inspection at the landfill on May
24 8th and May 12th, 1992?
32
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 A Yes, it was.
2 Q Could you look at the document and tell
3 me if it is a true and accurate copy of the report
4 that you generated for the inspection of those
5 dates?
6 A Yes, it is.
7 MS. MENOTTI: The State moves to have the
8 document admitted into evidence as a business
9 record of the Agency.
10 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Any
11 objections?
12 MR. VAN NESS: No objection.
13 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Mr. Taylor?
14 MR. TAYLOR: No.
15 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: People's
16 Exhibit Number 9 is admitted into evidence.
17 (Whereupon said document was
18 admitted into evidence as
19 People's Exhibit 9 as of this
20 date.)
21 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Mr. Turner, could you
22 briefly describe what you observed at the landfill
23 on these dates?
24 A On those dates the landfill was no longer
33
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 accepting waste. It had begun activities to cover
2 existing waste at the site and to close or seal the
3 trenches that had been excavated that had been
4 observed previously.
5 Q Do you recall citing any violations
6 during these two dates of inspection?
7 A Yes, I did. Yes, I do recall. The
8 landfill was still outside its permitted contours.
9 There was still uncovered refuse from previous
10 operating days. I believe there were still
11 leachate flows. It did not have an approved
12 closure plan, post-closure plan, financial
13 assurance, or a groundwater monitoring system.
14 Q Regarding the permitted boundaries, can
15 you explain what the violation was in detail?
16 A Well, the approved plans call for the
17 landfill to have a certain shape and extent. By
18 extent I mean both laterally and vertically. You
19 know, based upon the approved plans, as I mentioned
20 before, you should not have had to look up to see
21 the top of the fill entering the property from the
22 south, yet that was the case. Also, there were
23 materials that had been deposited on the ground in
24 areas away from the landfill.
34
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 Q Are there any pictures attached to this
2 report that would illustrate the
unpermitted
3 disposals, and if so could you identify them for
4 the record?
5 A Basically photos from roll 55, exposures
6 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9, which were all taken
7 along the south perimeter of the landfill looking
8 towards the north, are all looking up to show the
9 top of the landfill. Also on photos 6 and 7 of
10 roll 55, uncovered waste is visible. Also photo
11 number 9 and 8 of that roll, photo number 5 of roll
12 57 shows uncovered refuse. Photos number 8 and 9
13 of roll 57 show uncovered refuse.
14 Photo number 12 of roll 57, photo number
15 1 of roll 58 show uncovered refuse. Photo number 7
16 of roll 58 shows uncovered refuse, as does photo
17 number 9 of roll 58. Photo number 8 of roll 58
18 shows waste piles that are out away from the main
19 landfill. Photo number 12 of roll 58 shows
20 uncovered refuse.
21 Q In what area of the landfill was this
22 uncovered refuse?
23 MR. LATSHAW: Again, for purposes of
24 preserving the record, I need to interpose an
35
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 objection that the testimony with regard to this
2 exhibit having to do with uncovered refuse or,
3 again,
leachate, which do not -- are not material
4 to allegations of wrongdoing in Counts 5 and 6 and,
5 therefore, should not be permitted. The same
6 objection.
7 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Well, in terms
8 of the
leachate I will go ahead and note your
9 standing objection, and on the uncovered refuse, I
10 think that does go to Counts 5 and 6.
11 MS. MENOTTI: Okay. My response was just
12 that not only was the landfill, according to Mr.
13 Turner's observations, already closed, it is -- it
14 goes to the lack of closure activity that is cited
15 in Counts 5 and 6 of the complaint.
16 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Right, and that
17 part of the objection is overruled.
18 MR. LATSHAW: Okay.
19 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Mr. Turner, could you
20 please indicate what areas of the landfill you
21 found this uncovered refuse?
22 A Uncovered refuse was observed in
23 scattered areas in the south part of the landfill.
24 There was a pile of uncovered refuse atop the
36
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 landfill and another one toward the southwest
2 corner, and there was some uncovered refuse along
3 the perimeter of the old cell to the east of what
4 had been the active landfill in the trench area
5 that was discussed previously.
6 Q The landfill -- was the landfill
7 operating on these dates when you visited it?
8 A It was not accepting waste.
9 Q Do you know when the landfill ceased
10 accepting waste?
11 A It ceased accepting waste on or about May
12 the 6th of that year.
13 Q I will direct your attention to the date
14 of July 9th, 1992. Do you recall visiting the
15 landfill on that day?
16 A Yes, I do.
17 Q Do you recall conducting an inspection of
18 the landfill during that visit?
19 A Yes, I do.
20 Q Did you generate a report regarding that
21 visit?
22 A Yes, I did.
23 Q Would you be able to identify the report
24 if I showed it to you?
37
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 A Yes, I would.
2 MS. MENOTTI: Would you mark this,
3 please. Thank you.
4 (Whereupon said document was
5 duly marked for purposes of
6 identification as People's
7 Exhibit 10 as of this date.)
8 MS. MENOTTI: Would you gentlemen like to
9 review this first?
10 (Ms.
Menotti showed People's
11 Exhibit 10 to Mr.
Latshaw, Mr.
12 Van
Ness and Mr. Taylor.)
13 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Mr. Turner, I hand you
14 what has been marked as People's Exhibit Number
15 10. Do you recognize this document?
16 A Yes, I do.
17 Q Could you please identify it?
18 A It is an inspection report that I
19 prepared as a result of my inspection on July the
20 9th, 1992.
21 Q Is this the type of report that is
22 generated and maintained for Agency files?
23 A Yes, it is.
24 Q Is this a type of report that is
38
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 ordinarily prepared in the regular course of Agency
2 business?
3 A Yes, it is.
4 Q Was this report prepared
5 contemporaneously with or shortly after you
6 conducted your inspection on this date?
7 A Yes, it was.
8 Q Could you please look at the report and
9 tell me if it is a true and accurate copy of the
10 report you generated regarding this inspection?
11 A Yes, it is.
12 MS. MENOTTI: At this point I would move
13 to admit this document into evidence as a business
14 record of the Agency.
15 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Any objection,
16 Mr. Van
Ness?
17 MR. VAN NESS: No objections but, again,
18 we might as well at this point note our continuing
19 objection to anything related to the
leachate.
20 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right. So
21 noted. Any objection, Mr. Taylor?
22 MR. TAYLOR: No.
23 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: People's
24 Exhibit Number 10 is admitted into evidence.
39
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 (Whereupon said document was
2 admitted into evidence as
3 People's Exhibit 10 as of this
4 date.)
5 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Mr. Turner, could you
6 please tell me what you observed during your
7 inspection on this date?
8 A The landfill was still not accepting
9 waste. It was making continued progress toward
10 covering exposed waste and consolidating waste from
11 around the site onto the -- onto what had been the
12 active landfill, and making progress toward filling
13 in the trench that had been previously excavated
14 along the boundary of the old landfill.
15 Q Did you site any violations at the
16 landfill?
17 A Yes, I did.
18 Q Could you summarize those?
19 A Once again, the permit violations, due to
20 the
unpermitted -- the deposition of waste in
21 unpermitted parts of the landfill, due to being
22 overheight and out of bounds, uncovered refuse
23 remaining from previous operating days, inadequate
24 daily cover, no closure plan, no post-closure plan,
40
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 no financial assurance, no groundwater monitoring
2 program.
3 Q You mentioned that you observed overfill,
4 out of bounds, and too high. Could you please tell
5 me which areas of the landfill you observed these
6 violations?
7 A Could you repeat that, please?
8 Q You said that you cited violations for
9 unpermitted disposal, that the landfill was still
10 too high, and it was out of bounds?
11 A Okay. Yes.
12 Q Could you tell me in which area of the
13 landfill you observed these violations?
14 A Okay. Basically, once again, at the
15 south of the landfill looking up to see the top of
16 it, would indicate it was above its permitted
17 contours. There was some amount of remaining
18 scattered waste piles out away from the landfill
19 that were in the process of being consolidated at
20 the main landfill. Those were along the east side
21 of the main landfill, what had been the active
22 fill.
23 Q Did you observe refuse that was not -- or
24 exposed refuse during this visit?
41
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 A Yes, I did. They were making progress
2 toward filling in the trench that had been along
3 the old cell. There was still some parts of that
4 that were open with exposed refuse. Also, in some
5 of the parts that had been filled in, there was
6 still some exposed refuse visible after the filling
7 in of the trench.
8 Q Based on your knowledge, is there any
9 Regulation that addresses uncovered or exposed
10 refuse at a site?
11 A Yes, there are.
12 Q Can you tell me what those Regulations
13 require?
14 A Basically they require that all refuse be
15 covered within certain time frames. Refuse should
16 be covered with a daily cover of at least six
17 inches of suitable material by the end of the
18 operating day, the day in which it was received.
19 Q Based on your observations on this date,
20 you cited that there was no closure or post-closure
21 plan. In your opinion -- well, let me ask you this
22 first. With regard to that, is the plan -- is
23 there anything that distinguishes that the closure
24 and post-closure plan from actual -- I take that
42
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 all back. Excuse me. I am going to start over.
2 That was going to be a confusing question.
3 During your visit, did you observe any
4 activity that you would characterize as closure
5 care?
6 A Could you rephrase that possibly?
7 Q Well, let's start with this, then. The
8 observations that you made regarding some of the
9 waste being covered, would that be characterized as
10 a maintenance or operational step that the landfill
11 would take?
12 A What I observed were activities of
13 consolidating and covering the waste. I don't know
14 that those could be necessarily construed as
15 closure activities, since there was no approved
16 closure plan to specify in details what activities
17 needed to be conducted.
18 Q All right. Did --
19 MR. LATSHAW: I think I will object and
20 move to strike. It is unresponsive, and I think
21 this witness can testify to what he observed the
22 activity to be, and the ultimate determination as
23 to what that is or is not is left to the
trier of
24 fact, I think.
43
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 MS. MENOTTI: I believe that it is based
2 on his direct observation, and it is Mr. Turner's
3 job to observe conditions at a facility and decide
4 whether or not they are in accordance with the Act
5 and the Regulations. It is part of his normal job
6 description and his inspection report should
7 reflect this information.
8 MR. VAN NESS: Mr. Hearing Officer, if I
9 may, that is really not the question that Counsel
10 asked this witness. I believe she is asking him to
11 characterize the activity and I am not sure,
12 frankly, what the question is, but it seems like
13 she is asking him to characterize whether the
14 activity taken under the court order constitutes
15 closure, which sounds like, to me, a legal
16 conclusion.
17 Maybe I misunderstood the question, but
18 it sounds like she is trying to extract a legal
19 conclusion from this witness. I think it is
20 objectionable on that grounds, as well.
21 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Do you care to
22 rephrase your question?
23 MS. MENOTTI: I will rephrase, if you
24 would like.
44
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) While you were visiting
2 the site, on this date, was there any activity
3 occurring involving movement of waste?
4 A Waste -- some waste had been moved on to
5 the top of the landfill by this point. I don't
6 recall if I actually saw something physically being
7 moved at an exact moment, but some movement had
8 occurred by this point.
9 Q Did you observe anyone placing any dirt
10 or soil or other material on top of any of the
11 exposed refuse?
12 A Some soil had been placed by this point.
13 If you want to know if I actually saw it happening
14 at the time I was there, I would need to look at my
15 narrative for a moment to refresh my memory.
16 Q Please take a moment and see if you
17 directly observed that.
18 A (The witness reviewed document.) It does
19 not record that I observed it, so I would say that
20 I probably did not at that point observe it
21 actually happening.
22 Q Directing your attention to what you
23 referred to as the vertical overfill, are there any
24 pictures attached to the report that would
45
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 illustrate the vertical
unpermitted disposal of
2 waste that you cited?
3 A I don't have any pictures from the south,
4 which would really be the only ones that would show
5 it in an obvious manner for the
layperson.
6 Basically any of the photos that do show the
7 landfill profile, though, you know, if you could
8 generate a three-dimensional model of what the --
9 of the permitted contours from that perspective,
10 that would show it was not meeting the permitted
11 contours.
12 Q Is there a picture attached to this
13 document that shows the uncovered refuse that you
14 were referring to?
15 A Roll 62, number 2, and roll 62, number 3,
16 number 4 of roll 62, roll 62, number 5, roll 62,
17 number 6, roll 62, number 7 and 8, roll 62, number
18 9.
19 Q In your opinion, based on the violations
20 that you observed on this date, were there any
21 impacts upon the environment as result of the
22 violations that you cited?
23 A The uncovered refuse would still have
24 constituted an attraction, and the potential for
46
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 contaminated runoff. Also, that the landfill was
2 not meeting its permitted limits would tend to
3 cause increased potential for erosion or for it to
4 behave in a manner not necessarily considered
5 during the permitting process.
6 MR. LATSHAW: Again, let me note an
7 objection to the question as being -- eliciting an
8 opinion without applying the proper standard. And
9 I move to strike the response.
10 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: The objection
11 is noted and overruled.
12 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Mr. Turner, I would like
13 to direct your attention away from that document.
14 Did you have the opportunity to visit the
15 landfill again after this inspection?
16 A Yes, I did.
17 Q Do you recall being at the site on
18 September 22nd, 1992?
19 A Yes, I do.
20 Q Did you conduct an inspection on this
21 date?
22 A Yes, I did.
23 Q Did you generate a report regarding this
24 inspection?
47
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 A Yes, I did.
2 Q Would you be able to identify that
3 report?
4 A Yes, I would.
5 MS. MENOTTI: Would you mark this,
6 please.
7 (Whereupon said document was
8 duly marked for purposes of
9 identification as People's
10 Exhibit 11 as of this date.)
11 MS. MENOTTI: I will show this to
12 opposing counsel.
13 (Ms.
Menotti showed People's
14 Exhibit 11 to Mr.
Latshaw, Mr.
15 Van
Ness and Mr. Taylor.)
16 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Mr. Turner, I will hand
17 you what has been marked as People's Exhibit Number
18 11. Do you recognize this document?
19 A Yes, I do.
20 Q Could you please identify it, for the
21 record?
22 A It is the inspection report that I
23 prepared as a result of my inspection on the 22nd
24 of September of 1992.
48
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 Q And you personally generated this report?
2 A Yes, I did.
3 Q Is this the type of report that is
4 generated and maintained for Agency files?
5 A Yes, it is.
6 Q Is it the type of report that is
7 ordinarily prepared in the regular course of Agency
8 business regarding inspections?
9 A Yes, it is.
10 Q Was this report prepared or generated
11 contemporaneously with or shortly after you
12 conducted your inspection on this date?
13 A Yes, it is.
14 Q Could you please look at it and tell me
15 if it is a true and accurate copy of the report
16 that you generated?
17 A Yes, it is.
18 MS. MENOTTI: At this point, Mr. Hearing
19 Officer, I would move to admit People's Exhibit
20 Number 11 into evidence as a business record of the
21 Agency.
22 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Any objection?
23 MR. VAN NESS: No, I have no objection,
24 but I would note that we did not discover until a
49
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 second ago that we were missing pages out of that.
2 We have a set in front of us now that is complete.
3 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: What part is
4 missing?
5 MR. VAN NESS: The first three pages. I
6 am sorry. The first two pages.
7 MR. LATSHAW: The first two pages of the
8 narrative.
9 MR. VAN NESS: It was not readily
10 apparent, because of the numbering system. So we
11 were not able to tell, evidently, that there were
12 two pages missing of the narrative part of the
13 report.
14 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Was that not
15 disclosed?
16 MS. MENOTTI: I believe that we sent
17 copies of everything we had. I didn't personally
18 send the document to Counsel for Waste Hauling, but
19 I have an extra copy right now, if they would like
20 it. To the best of my knowledge every bit of
21 information we had has been disclosed to both
22 respondents regarding the inspection reports.
23 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right. Mr.
24 Taylor, do you have any objection?
50
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 MR. TAYLOR: No, I don't. We did get the
2 first two pages of the narrative, but not the
3 pictures.
4 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right. We
5 will admit People's Exhibit Number 11.
6 (Whereupon said document was
7 admitted into evidence as
8 People's Exhibit 11 as of this
9 date.)
10 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Let's go off
11 the record and take about a five-minute break.
12 (Whereupon a short recess was
13 taken.)
14 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Back on the
15 record.
16 Ms.
Menotti, you may continue.
17 MS. MENOTTI: Thank you.
18 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Can you please summarize
19 what you observed during this inspection, Mr.
20 Turner?
21 A At this point, the site had completed
22 consolidating miscellaneous waste that had not been
23 on the main landfill onto it. All waste had been
24 covered with approximately six inches of soil and
51
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 the trenches near the old landfill had been filled
2 in.
3 Q During this inspection, did you note any
4 violations at the facility?
5 A Yes, I did.
6 Q Could you please summarize what those
7 were?
8 A The landfill still did not conform to the
9 permitted contours. Final cover had not been
10 applied and had not been applied in the requisite
11 time. There was no groundwater monitoring program,
12 and there still was no closure, post-closure plans
13 or financial assurance.
14 Q Regarding the first violation, could you
15 describe what you observed regarding failure to
16 comply with the permits?
17 A Sure. Basically, once again, the
18 landfill was supposed to have a certain shape
19 sloping downward toward the north from a natural
20 grade downward, and that was not the case. It was
21 mounded up.
22 Q You are looking at a picture in your
23 report. Could you please identify the picture?
24 A Sure.
52
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 Q Could you tell me what it shows?
2 A These are photos 76 -- roll 76, photos
3 number 2 through 4. They show the mound of the
4 landfill.
5 Q Regarding the next violations that you
6 cited, can you please first describe what final
7 cover is?
8 A Final cover is a minimum of two feet of
9 compacted suitable material.
10 Q Is that required by either the
11 Environmental Protection Act or a Regulation?
12 A It is required by Title 35, Subtitle G,
13 807.305 C.
14 Q Can you please tell me what you observed
15 that made you cite the violation for inadequate
16 final cover?
17 A There was not two feet of cover on the
18 site. I mean, parts of the site had two feet, but
19 parts of it had less than two feet.
20 Q Okay. At what point was the landfill
21 required to have this material covering the site?
22 A I don't recall the precise time frame,
23 but it is either 30 or 60 days after final receipt
24 of waste that it should have final cover applied.
53
KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 Q Had that time period elapsed on the date
2 of this visit?
3 A Yes, it would have. It would have
4 elapsed approximately three -- the receipt of --
5 the last receipt of waste was more than three
6 months -- actually, more than four months before
7 the inspection, and the final cover still had not
8 been applied.
9 Q Based on your observations on this date,
10 would you say that the violations you cited were
11 having any kind of effect upon the environment?
12 A Well, once again, the landfill was not
13 built in the shape that it was planned and
14 permitted to be, so it can't be known how it will
15 behave, since it can't be known to behave the way
16 it would be modeled.
17 By not having final cover applied within
18 the necessary time, the daily cover, which is only
19 six inches, has the potential to begin to erode
20 off. By not having the closure plan, which was
21 specified in details for a vegetative layer over
22 the final cover, there is no provision there for
23 the vegetation to be in place to stabilize and
24 protect the cover on the landfill.
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1 MR. LATSHAW: Again, let me interpose an
2 objection that the question elicits an opinion
3 without the appropriate standard, and I think it is
4 beyond the scope of his testimony.
5 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Overruled.
6 MR. LATSHAW: And also move to strike.
7 Excuse me.
8 MS. MENOTTI: At this point, Mr. Hearing
9 Officer, I have nothing further for this witness.
10 Mr. Turner may need to be recalled when
11 the hearing continues in April.
12 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right.
13 Cross-examination, Mr.
Latshaw, Mr. Van
Ness? Are
14 you flipping coins?
15 MR. VAN NESS: We were flipping a coin
16 here. I lost.
17 CROSS EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. VAN NESS:
19 Q Mr. Turner?
20 A
Uh-huh.
21 Q You began your inspections of the Waste
22 Hauling Landfill in July of 1991, I believe you
23 said?
24 A That's correct.
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 Q And turning your attention to People's
2 Exhibit Number 8, do you recall or do you see
3 anywhere in that report any mention of a
4 conversation with Mr. Brad Brown?
5 A Since I interviewed Mr. Brown, there are
6 probably several mentions in here of conversations
7 with him or statements made by him. Do you need
8 specific examples?
9 Q Yes. For the sake of expediency, I
10 wanted to make sure you recalled that
11 conversation. Do you recall any conversation with
12 Mr. Brown regarding the lateral boundaries of the
13 landfill?
14 A On one of the inspections I believe I do.
15 I don't know if it was this particular one,
16 although I could review my report, if you would
17 like.
18 Q Would you please do so?
19 A Sure.
20 Q I will represent to you that I believe it
21 is that date.
22 A (The witness reviewed document.) Yes, I
23 have found a reference to it.
24 Q Okay. Would that be in paragraph number
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 seven?
2 A Yes, it would.
3 Q Thank you. Do you recall that
4 conversation now, sir?
5 A Pardon me?
6 Q Do you recall the conversation
7 memorializing that paragraph now?
8 A Very, very vaguely. I mean, this has
9 been on the order of six years ago.
10 Q Do you recall that Mr. Brown represented
11 to you that perhaps the lines, as had been
12 previously understood, were incorrect in terms of
13 the boundaries?
14 MS. MENOTTI: Mr. Hearing Officer, I
15 would object. It appears that -- I am anticipating
16 the witness' answer, but it appears that the answer
17 is going to be hearsay.
18 MR. VAN NESS: I am sorry? Oh, hearsay.
19 MS. MENOTTI: It appears that you are
20 asking for an answer that --
21 MR. VAN NESS: No, I am not asking -- Mr.
22 Hearing Officer, I am not asking for the witness to
23 authenticate whatever Mr. Brown told him. I am
24 just asking him regarding the conversation, asking
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 him if he recalls the conversation and the tenor of
2 that conversation.
3 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: The objection
4 is overruled.
5 THE WITNESS: I recall that the
6 conversation occurred. I don't recall in great
7 detail what was said. I mean, I only really know
8 what I have in writing before me.
9 Q (By Mr. Van
Ness) Have you read paragraph
10 seven?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay. And is it fair to characterize
13 that Mr. Brown represented to you that the boundary
14 line was in a different place than had been
15 previously understood?
16 A Yes, that's correct.
17 Q Okay. Is it fair to say that your report
18 suggests that you had no means by which to
19 ascertain whether what he stated was true or not?
20 A In regard to that particular instance of
21 that boundary line, that is correct.
22 Q Did you ever obtain the means to
23 ascertain the boundary?
24 A On that particular score there, the issue
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 of the boundary on the south limb of the site, no.
2 Q Now, turning your attention to your
3 inspection in May of 1992, and I believe that is
4 People's Exhibit Number 9. You agree that the
5 landfill was no longer taking in waste on that day?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q And did you not conclude, sir, that the
8 landfill was in the process of complying with the
9 court order?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q In your experience, sir, does it take
12 time for a landfill -- once out of compliance, does
13 it take time for a landfill to get in compliance?
14 A Depending on the nature and extent of how
15 they were out of compliance, yes, it would take
16 some amount of time, you know, a short time, a long
17 time, dependent upon the nature of the violations.
18 Q All right. When we talked about
19 violations, we are talking about apparent
20 violations, are we not?
21 A We are talking about observations that I
22 saw that in my interpretation were not in
23 accordance with the Regulations and/or the permit.
24 Q You characterize these in your report as,
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 I believe, apparent violations; isn't that right?
2 A That's our standard terminology. Yes.
3 Q Thank you. Now, turning your attention
4 now to the People's Exhibit Number 10, and that's
5 the July 9, 1992 inspection.
6 Did you not conclude, sir, at that time
7 that the landfill had made great strides in
8 complying with the court order?
9 A That is correct, I believe.
10 Q Okay. And is that -- was that an
11 accurate depiction of your impressions at that
12 time?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Turning to People's Exhibit Number 11,
15 that is dated September 22, 1992; is that correct?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q And isn't it true that based on your
18 observations you reported that the landfill had
19 essentially complied with the court order?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q Okay. And isn't it true that on that day
22 activity continued? On the day you arrived there,
23 was there not continuing activity underway at the
24 landfill?
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 A I don't recall. I can review my notes,
2 my report here, if you would like.
3 Q Okay. Would you turn to your report,
4 please, and let's take a look at -- you probably --
5 let me back up.
6 Do you recall seeing whether there was
7 any equipment being utilized at that time?
8 A Not off the top of my head. I don't
9 recall.
10 Q Okay. Would your report note that in any
11 way?
12 A It might be noted in the narrative.
13 There may be photos that depict it.
14 Q Let's take a quick look through it and
15 see if you see anything that jogs your memory in
16 there?
17 A Okay. Short of reading every word right
18 now, which I am sure we don't want to do, I don't
19 see any ready reference to other people on site,
20 other than Mr. Brown and myself.
21 Q Okay. Did you understand that Mr. Brown
22 was performing the work there at the site?
23 A Meaning that he was operating the
24 equipment himself?
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 Q Right.
2 A I know he was overseeing the operation.
3 I don't recall if he had actually done any of the
4 work himself. I believe he had a heart condition,
5 so I don't know.
6 Q Okay. Without belaboring the point,
7 could you turn to photo number 9 on roll 76?
8 A Okay.
9 Q I see what appears to be two pieces of
10 equipment there. They look like they may be
11 operating. Does that jog your memory?
12 A No, it doesn't jog my memory.
13 Q Okay. I don't want to beat a dead horse
14 here. Let's turn our attention to the weather
15 conditions on September 22, 1992. It looks like it
16 was pretty sunny.
17 A It was a beautiful day.
18 Q Do you recall making a note in your
19 report of that date that it hadn't always been that
20 way?
21 A I know I made a note in one of the
22 reports. It may be this one.
23 Q Let me turn your attention to paragraph
24 number one of your narrative. Do you see your
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 narrative?
2 A The introductory paragraph?
3 Q Paragraph number one.
4 A Oh, item number one. Okay.
5 Q Yes, item one.
6 A Okay.
7 Q Isn't it true that you make note there,
8 sir, that July of 1992 was the wettest month on
9 record in this area?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q And did you report the amount of rainfall
12 that had fallen in that area?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Do you consider it feasible for a
15 landfill operation to be conducted when there is 17
16 inches of rain coming down?
17 A I don't know.
18 Q Would you agree it would have an impact?
19 A It would tend to make the soil more
20 difficult to work with due to becoming muddy.
21 Q Did you have an occasion to visit the
22 landfill later in 1992?
23 A Later after September 22nd?
24 Q Yes.
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 A No.
2 Q So you don't know for a fact that the
3 entirety of the landfill was not ultimately covered
4 with two feet of material; is that correct?
5 A I do not know the current condition of
6 the site.
7 Q Okay. Now, it has been your opinion
8 throughout that the landfill exceeded its vertical
9 boundary, and I guess I would call it the
10 horizontal boundary; is that correct?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q Did you ever undertake any measurements
13 to confirm that?
14 A On the -- let's separate that into the
15 vertical and lateral. On the vertical, according
16 to the approved plans, the maximum elevation should
17 have been natural grade, natural topography at the
18 sound end of the landfill and sloping downward from
19 that point.
20 I did not actually measure, but if you
21 stand at south of the landfill you have to look up
22 to see the top of it. Therefore, it could not have
23 been sloping continuously down from grade toward
24 the river.
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 On the lateral issue, I personally did
2 not undertake any type of measurement to ascertain
3 that, although I believe it was done by another
4 member of the Agency.
5 Q But not by you?
6 A But not by me personally, no.
7 MR. VAN NESS: Okay. Thank you. Nothing
8 further.
9 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Mr. Taylor?
10 MR. TAYLOR: We have no questions for the
11 witness.
12 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Redirect?
13 MS. MENOTTI: Can we take a couple minute
14 break?
15 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right.
16 (Whereupon a short recess was
17 taken.)
18 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Back on the
19 record. Any redirect?
20 MS. MENOTTI: Yes. Can I have one
21 moment, please, to confer.
22 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Yes.
23 (Mr. Davis and Ms.
Menotti
24 confer briefly.)
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 MS. MENOTTI: Can I proceed?
2 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Pardon me?
3 MS. MENOTTI: Can I proceed now?
4 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Yes.
5 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MS. MENOTTI:
7 Q I just have a couple of questions to
8 clarify the record. First, I would like to talk a
9 little bit about Agency procedures. Is it part of
10 your job description to conduct inspections of
11 facilities?
12 A Yes, it is.
13 Q And is it also part of your job to make
14 observations during those inspections?
15 A Yes, it is.
16 Q Do you document those observations?
17 A Yes, I do.
18 Q And in what format do you document them?
19 A Field notes, which are later transformed
20 into an inspection report, and by photos and other
21 form of documentation.
22 Q And as part of those inspection reports,
23 do you note if you find any violations at the
24 facility?
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 A Yes, I do.
2 Q In your experience with the Agency, does
3 the Agency depend on your observations and reports
4 in assessing whether or not a violation may exist
5 at a particular site?
6 A Yes, it does.
7 MR. LATSHAW: I think I will object to
8 that. It is beyond the scope of cross. It is
9 certainly calling for an opinion about what might
10 or might not occur within the thinking processes of
11 certain people inside the Agency, which that is --
12 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: This does seem
13 to be beyond the scope of cross-examination.
14 MS. MENOTTI: This line of questioning is
15 in response to Mr. Van
Ness' questions regarding
16 the citations in the inspection report as to
17 whether they were apparent violations or
18 violations. I just wanted to clarify how the
19 Agency treats these inspection reports in regard to
20 whether or not they are -- the violation exists or
21 are apparent.
22 MR. VAN NESS: I think the witness has
23 already given his testimony on this point, Your
24 Honor. I don't see what this adds to it. It is
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 argumentative.
2 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right. The
3 objection is sustained.
4 MS. MENOTTI: The other questions that I
5 have for Mr. Turner are regarding Mr. Van
Ness'
6 questions regarding the court order.
7 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Do you know what the
8 terms of the court order closing the landfill
9 required?
10 A In general I do. If you would like them
11 specifically recounted I would like to refer to one
12 of my reports where I have them enumerated, so I
13 don't misspeak.
14 Q You have the conditions of the court
15 order cited in one of your reports?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Could you please indicate which report
18 that is?
19 A That would be in, I believe, all the ones
20 after the order was entered, so the reports of May,
21 July and September of 1992.
22 Q I would direct your attention to the
23 inspection reports dated May 8 and May 12th, 1992.
24 A Yes.
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 Q In that document do you make any notation
2 as to what was required -- what kind of activity
3 was required at the landfill by the court order?
4 A Yes, I do.
5 Q Could you please summarize those for the
6 record?
7 A To cease and desist all operations of the
8 landfill. To close the trench that had been
9 excavated on the site and prevent
leachate from
10 entering waters of the State of Illinois. And to
11 immediately cover all existing waste or refuse with
12 at least six inches of suitable material, defined
13 by law.
14 Q Did you observe any of those activities
15 on that date occurring?
16 A Yes, those activities were begun.
17 Q The six inches of cover that was required
18 by the court order, how does that compare to what
19 is required by the Regulations for closure
20 activities?
21 A The six inches of suitable material is
22 equivalent to daily cover, the type of cover that
23 is supposed to be in place over waste by the end of
24 each operating day. The Regulations also require
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1 final cover of two feet additional suitable
2 material beyond what is required by daily cover.
3 MS. MENOTTI: Okay. Thank you. I have
4 nothing further.
5 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Re-cross?
6 MR. VAN NESS: Yes.
7 RECROSS EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. VAN NESS:
9 Q Does the daily cover requirement include
10 compaction, sir?
11 A Pardon me?
12 Q Does the daily cover requirement include
13 compaction?
14 A I am a little -- it has been quite awhile
15 since I have worked on a solid waste site. I am a
16 little hazy on that. But it is generally perceived
17 as being six inches of compacted soil, and I don't
18 recall exactly where that is stated. I believe the
19 Regulations say suitable material, but it is
20 generally held as compacted soil or clay.
21 Q In all events, when you stated in your
22 report of September 22, 1992, that --
23 MS. MENOTTI: Objection, Mr. Hearing
24 Officer. I don't think we have discussed the
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 September report during redirect.
2 MR. VAN NESS: Well, Mr. Hearing Officer,
3 Counsel for the People have introduced the subject,
4 and I am simply trying to --
5 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Well, wait just
6 a minute. Why don't you finish your question
7 first.
8 MR. VAN NESS: Thank you.
9 Q (By Mr. Van
Ness) In your conclusion on
10 September 22, 1992, that it appeared that the
11 landfill had eventually complied with the court
12 order, in the course of reaching that conclusion,
13 did you take any samples or measurements to
14 ascertain the depth of cover?
15 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right. Do
16 you still object to that?
17 MS. MENOTTI: The last part was to the
18 depth of cover?
19 MR. VAN NESS: Yes.
20 MS. MENOTTI: I would still -- never
21 mind. I will withdraw the objection.
22 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right. Mr.
23 Turner --
24 THE WITNESS: No, I did not take any
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 measurements.
2 Q (By Mr. Van
Ness) So it could have been
3 six inches, it could have been two feet?
4 A Mr. Brown, the operator, stated that
5 there were at least six inches or approximately six
6 inches, as the case may be.
7 Q (By Mr. Van
Ness) You had no other
8 information to go on besides your personal
9 observation?
10 A It would have only been my personal
11 observations, or the statements made by Mr. Brown.
12 MR. VAN NESS: Thank you.
13 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Any questions?
14 MR. TAYLOR: No.
15 EXAMINATION
16 BY HEARING OFFICER WALLACE:
17 Q Mr. Turner, you mentioned something
18 called the old cell. Is that more -- is there a
19 more descriptive term than old cell?
20 A It is, I believe, formerly -- it is
21 formerly referred to as the
McKinney number one
22 landfill.
23 Q Okay. Is it a joint determination
24 between the Agency and the landfill as to when the
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 last waste is accepted, or is that completely a
2 landfill decision?
3 A I don't know. I mean, in this
4 specific --
5 Q You made a statement that the landfill
6 had ceased accepting waste. How did you know that,
7 then?
8 A It was ordered by the court to cease
9 accepting waste, and by the point at which we first
10 went to the site after the order was entered, we
11 did not observe any waste entering nor did local
12 residents. To the best of our knowledge no waste
13 entered the site after the order was entered.
14 Q In your reports that you testified to you
15 cited closure, post-closure and financial plan
16 citations?
17 A (Nodded head up and down.)
18 Q Is that correct?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q Are these documents required to be kept
21 at the landfill site?
22 A I believe that they would be required to
23 be kept there. Generally anything pertaining to
24 the permitting or operation of the landfill
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 monitoring and so forth, are supposed to be kept on
2 site.
3 Q Or is that a citation that you checked
4 after returning to your office?
5 A It was one that I checked when I
6 completed the report. It was cited at that time,
7 checked at that time.
8 Q Then would you walk through, one more
9 time, how you can tell the vertical overfill by
10 looking up? You have mentioned that two or three
11 times.
12 A Okay. There is a natural grade or
13 topography to the property, as there is to any
14 property, and in this case it is a property
15 bordering the
Sangamon River, and it is going to
16 tend to slope downhill toward the river. The
17 approved plans for the site called for that slope
18 to be filled in, but the new slope, the slope of
19 the fill compared to the existing topography, it
20 should still go downhill from the point -- from the
21 furthest south -- the south limit of the fill.
22 So if you are standing up here away from
23 the landfill to the south, at no point should you
24 have to look up to see the top of the landfill. It
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 should slope down, not as gradually as it used to,
2 but it should still slope down towards the river.
3 However, when you come into the property
4 from the south, you have to look up to see the top
5 of the landfill. So it has been filled definitely
6 above the existing grade, and it should not have
7 been, according to the approved plans.
8 Q How do you know that you are at grade?
9 A Because I am standing on it. I guess I
10 don't understand your question, sir.
11 Q Well, you said that at grade it should
12 slope downward, and you are saying that you look
13 upward?
14 A At no point when you enter the property
15 from the south should you have to look up to see
16 it, but at any point you look up to the see the top
17 of the landfill. As a matter of fact, it is
18 visible from some distance around.
19 Q Well, what do you base your conclusion on
20 that as you enter the landfill from the south that
21 you should not have to look up to see the landfill,
22 but rather should be looking down?
23 A The approved plans show a final contour
24 topography that at its highest elevation at the
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
Belleville, Illinois
1 south end of the site is less than the original
2 grade south of the area covered by the landfill.
3 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right. I
4 thank you, Mr. Turner. You may step down.
5 You are subject to recall at the later
6 portion of this proceeding.
7 (The witness left the stand.)
8 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Let's go off
9 the record.
10 (Discussion off the record.)
11 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: We will break
12 for lunch and be back at 12:40.
13 (Whereupon a lunch recess was
14 taken from 11:35 p.m. to 12:40
15 p.m.)
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 AFTERNOON SESSION
2 (March 4, 1997; 12:40 p.m.)
3 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Back on the
4 record. We will recommence for the afternoon.
5 All right, Ms.
Menotti.
6 MS. MENOTTI: The People would like to
7 call Robert
Krimmel.
8 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Mr.
Krimmel, if
9 you will take a seat over here, please.
10 (Whereupon the witness was
11 sworn by Hearing Officer
12 Wallace.)
13 R O B E R T G. K R I M
M E L,
14 having been first duly sworn by the Hearing
15 Officer,
saith as follows:
16 DIRECT EXAMINATION
17 BY MS. MENOTTI:
18 Q For the record, could you please state
19 your full name.
20 A Robert G.
Krimmel.
21 Q And, Mr.
Krimmel, what is your current
22 occupation?
23 A I am a consulting engineer with the firm
24 of SKS Engineers, Incorporated, in Decatur.
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 Q Could you please tell me a little bit
2 about your educational background?
3 A I have a Bachelor of Science Degree in
4 Civil Engineering from the University of Illinois.
5 Q Do you have any other certifications?
6 A I am a Registered Professional Engineer
7 in the State of Illinois and in the State of
8 Indiana, and I am also a Registered Professional
9 Land Surveyor in the State of Illinois.
10 Q Mr.
Krimmel, are you familiar with the
11 Waste Hauling Landfill?
12 A Yes, I am.
13 Q In what capacity are you familiar with
14 it?
15 A I have been the engineer of record for
16 the landfill since approximately 1980.
17 Q As a consulting engineer, what services
18 do you perform for the landfill?
19 A For Waste Hauling Landfill, my services
20 were primarily related to IEPA permitting
21 requirements, and I also assisted Mr.
Camfield in
22 preparing engineering documents for a siting
23 hearing for the possible expansion of the
24 landfill.
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 Q Let's talk about the siting petition that
2 you just mentioned. Do you know when the siting
3 petition was filed?
4 A Sometime in 1989 or 1990.
5 Q And at what point did you become involved
6 with the preparation of that?
7 A We were involved with the engineering
8 documents from the very beginning.
9 Q At what point in time? What year did you
10 begin preparing the engineering plans for that
11 document?
12 A Well, approximately a year --
13 approximately a year ahead of the time that the
14 document was --
15 Q Do you recall what the purpose of that
16 siting petition was?
17 A It was to expand the landfill.
18 Q And was the expansion of the landfill
19 intended to be vertical, lateral, vertical and
20 lateral? How would you characterize the expansion?
21 A In relationship to the existing
22 landfill?
23 Q Correct.
24 A It was both a vertical and lateral
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 expansion.
2 Q Did it involve an expansion onto areas
3 that were not already permitted?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q Which direction, with regard to the
6 lateral expansion, was the petition seeking?
7 A The petition was seeking a lateral
8 expansion generally to the west and southwest.
9 Q And was that based off of -- the
10 expansion was based off the -- was it based off of
11 the existing contours of the landfill?
12 A I am sorry. I don't understand your
13 question.
14 Q Was the expansion -- I guess a better
15 phrase is was the expansion intended to be
16 contiguous from the contours of the landfill as
17 they existed at the time of the petition, or was it
18 intended to be a completely separate portion?
19 A The expansion was to be contiguous with
20 the existing landfill.
21 Q Did the petition involve any expansion to
22 areas of the landfill that already existed?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Could you please indicate what area of
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1 the landfill that was?
2 A The final contours that were in the -- of
3 the expanded landfill that were shown in the siting
4 document showed the final landfill in the vicinity
5 of the existing landfill to be somewhat higher and
6 maybe a minor lateral expansion to the north, not
7 very much, as I recall.
8 Q Okay.
9 A Most of the lateral expansion, again, was
10 to the west and to the southwest.
11 Q With regard to the expansion of the
12 existing area, do you recall what the vertical
13 elevation sought in the siting petition was?
14 A I am sorry. I don't understand.
15 Q You said that the portion of the landfill
16 already in existence was what the siting
17 addressed. I am asking do you recall what the
18 requested maximum elevation with regard to the
19 vertical level of the fill requested was?
20 A I believe it was somewhere in the
21 vicinity of elevation 700.
22 Q All right. 700, is that in feet?
23 A Mean sea level.
24 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: I am sorry.
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1 Would you state your answer again, please?
2 THE WITNESS: It was in the vicinity of
3 the -- I believe that she asked me what the
4 proposed final elevation was to be in the vicinity
5 of the existing landfill, and my answer was I
6 believed, to the best of my knowledge, I remembered
7 it to be about elevation 700 mean sea level.
8 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Are you saying
9 700 mean sea level?
10 THE WITNESS: 700, yes, mean sea level.
11 Elevation 700, based on mean sea level.
12 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Was this height for the
13 existing fill areas as well as in the new expanded
14 contiguous area?
15 A No.
16 Q Did it address -- actually, let me show
17 you what has been marked as People's Exhibit Number
18 1. Do you recognize this document?
19 A Yes, I do.
20 Q Did you have any involvement with its
21 preparation?
22 A Yes, I did.
23 Q Could you describe your involvement?
24 A This is a topographic map that was made
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1 from an aerial survey, and we arranged for the
2 aerial survey, and we also did what is known as the
3 ground control for this aerial survey.
4 Q Okay. And when was this survey
5 conducted?
6 A The survey was based on a flight that was
7 made over the site, as it says on the face of the
8 survey, on April 14th, 1988.
9 Q What does, in general, the survey show?
10 A It shows the contours of the Waste
11 Hauling Landfill.
12 Q Okay. Was this document used at all to
13 prepare drawings or was it incorporated at all in
14 the siting petition we have been discussing?
15 A Yes, this document was used as part of
16 the information within the siting petition.
17 Q I will refer back to the question I was
18 asking regarding the vertical elevation. Could you
19 indicate which area on the map the 700 mean sea
20 level elevation first siting was sought?
21 A I don't recall exactly, but it would have
22 been somewhere in the vicinity of what is now shown
23 as the high point of the -- I am sorry -- what was
24 shown as the high point of the western most fill
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1 area of this landfill at the time that this survey
2 was made.
3 Q Can you identify what the number or the
4 mean sea level vertical height that the aerial
5 survey indicates the landfill was at, at this point
6 in time?
7 A Which vertical height?
8 Q Of the fill area that you were just
9 talking about?
10 A Well, the fill area varies in elevation
11 from somewhere around 620 to -- elevation 620 to a
12 high point of 678.5.
13 Q At the time of -- at the time that this
14 survey was flown, were you aware of the permitted
15 contours of the landfill? Let me be more
16 specific.
17 Were you aware of the contours that were
18 permitted by the Illinois EPA for the landfill?
19 A Under what permit?
20 Q The operating permit, the developing and
21 operating permit that was, I believe, transferred
22 to Mr.
Camfield when he became the owner of this
23 facility?
24 A Yes, I was.
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1 Q Could you tell me, to the best of your
2 recollection, what you remember the mean sea level
3 elevation contours to be at its highest point?
4 A To the best of my recollection, the
5 highest point that is shown on the permitted
6 contours is elevation 640.
7 Q I would like to ask you if you remember
8 drafting a letter on behalf of Mr.
Camfield and the
9 Waste Hauling Landfill. Have you ever prepared any
10 notification forms? Let me back up.
11 Have you ever prepared any notification
12 forms on behalf of Waste Hauling Landfill?
13 A I have drafted several letters and
14 prepared many documents on behalf of Mr.
Camfield.
15 Q Have you ever submitted any of those
16 types of letters to the Illinois EPA?
17 A Many of the letters that I drafted on
18 behalf of Mr.
Camfield went to the EPA.
19 Q Do you recall drafting a letter regarding
20 a notification letter regarding the landfill in
21 March of 1991 at all?
22 A I may have.
23 Q If I showed you the letter, would you be
24 able to identify it?
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1 A I should be able to.
2 Q Under the assumption that you had drafted
3 it and submitted it?
4 A Yes.
5 MS. MENOTTI: Could you mark this,
6 please. Thank you.
7 (Whereupon said document was
8 duly marked for purposes of
9 identification as People's
10 Exhibit 12 as of this date.)
11 MS. MENOTTI: Do you want to see this
12 first?
13 MR. TAYLOR: I would like to see it. I
14 am not sure what it is.
15 (Ms.
Menotti showed People's
16 Exhibit 12 to Mr.
Latshaw, Mr.
17 Van
Ness and Mr. Taylor.)
18 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Mr. Krimmel, I hand you
19 this document. Do you recognize it?
20 A Yes. It is on stationery from my firm.
21 It appears to be signed by me.
22 Q Would that be a document that you would
23 have generated if you signed it?
24 A Yes.
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1 Q I would direct your attention to page two
2 of the document. Is there anything on that page
3 that indicates if the landfill exceeds its
4 permitted contours?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Could you please tell me what that
7 information entails?
8 A Roman numeral 1A6 asks the question, have
9 any areas been filled beyond the current permitted
10 boundaries?
11 Q And --
12 A And parenthetically it says include
13 vertical and final contour boundaries as well as
14 lateral boundaries.
15 Q And what was --
16 A It is checked yes, with the caveat the
17 vertical boundaries.
18 Q Thank you.
19 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: I am sorry.
20 With the caveat what?
21 THE WITNESS: It said vertical
22 boundaries.
23 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Excuse me.
24 What is the date on that letter?
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1 THE WITNESS: March 14th, 1991.
2 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Just for the record, Mr.
3 Krimmel, who was this document submitted to?
4 A It is addressed to the Illinois
5 Environmental Protection Agency, Division of Land
6 and Noise Pollution Control, Number 24, Planning &
7 Reporting Section Compliance Unit. The salutation
8 is to Mr.
Eastep.
9 Q Was this submitted for the Waste Hauling
10 Landfill?
11 A Yes.
12 Q In your contact, in your capacity as a
13 engineer regarding the landfill, do you know if
14 there were ever any problems or violations
15 regarding overfill or extension beyond the lateral
16 boundaries that were not permitted?
17 A I have a recollection that there was a
18 citation made concerning the
overheight. I don't
19 recall if there were ever any citations about
20 extension of lateral boundaries beyond the limits.
21 Q Mr.
Krimmel, do you recall giving a
22 deposition in your office on January 24th, 1997?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Do you recall reviewing a copy of the
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1 testimony that you gave?
2 A Yes. Yes, I did.
3 MS. MENOTTI: Do you gentlemen want to
4 see the copy that I am going to use?
5 MR. LATSHAW: I don't know. Is this an
6 attempt to impeach the witness or what?
7 MS. MENOTTI: I am just going to use this
8 to see if we can refresh his recollection regarding
9 the last question. I just want to know if you want
10 to see this before I refer to it.
11 MR. LATSHAW: Yes. May I see it,
12 please?
13 I think we need to interpose an objection
14 to the document you have marked as People's Exhibit
15 12. That is not on your list.
16 MS. MENOTTI: I am not offering it.
17 MR. LATSHAW: I don't think it should be
18 appropriate, for the record, to examine the witness
19 regarding that exhibit once you have marked it.
20 That's not on your list. I would strike the
21 testimony with regard to the exhibit.
22 MR. VAN NESS: What are you asking him to
23 look at?
24 MS. MENOTTI: The question regarding the
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1 lateral fill.
2 MR. VAN NESS: Okay. Right here?
3 MS. MENOTTI: Yes.
4 MR. VAN NESS: Okay.
5 (Ms.
Menotti showed the
6 document to Mr.
Latshaw, Mr.
7 Van
Ness and Mr. Taylor.)
8 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Ms.
Menotti, do
9 you wish to respond to the objection?
10 MS. MENOTTI: I am sorry. Was the
11 objection to --
12 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: The objection
13 and motion to strike the use of the testimony
14 concerning this document, because it was not
15 included on your list.
16 MS. MENOTTI: My exhibit list?
17 MR. VAN NESS: That's right. We have
18 looked and we have not found it either among the
19 things provided or on the list provided in response
20 to discovery.
21 MS. MENOTTI: I would submit, Mr. Hearing
22 Officer, I may have inadvertently left off this
23 document. It was tendered by the Waste Hauling
24 respondents through this witness during the
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1 discovery process. They certainly have had access
2 to it.
3 I don't intend to admit it into the
4 record as evidence, and I do not know of any
5 Regulation that precludes us from discussing
6 testimony that is -- or precludes us from
7 discussing evidence that is not listed in the
8 exhibit list. It was my impression that the
9 exhibit list was for convenience, not as a
10 preclusion to what we could or could not bring into
11 evidence at this hearing.
12 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right. You
13 are not offering that into evidence?
14 MS. MENOTTI: I am not offering the
15 document into evidence. I had it marked for
16 identification, so it would go to something to
17 reference it. I do not intend to offer it as
18 evidence.
19 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: The motion to
20 strike is denied.
21 MS. MENOTTI: Thank you. May I
22 continue?
23 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Yes.
24 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Mr. Krimmel, regarding
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1 the question regarding lateral overfill, I believe
2 we discussed it during your deposition in January
3 of this year, and I would like you to look at page
4 17 of what I am handing you here, and I will give
5 you the line number, and see if that refreshes your
6 recollection at all regarding the status of -- your
7 knowledge of the status of the lateral overfill.
8 We are at lines 10 through about 22.
9 MR. TAYLOR: Excuse me. What lines,
10 Maria?
11 MS. MENOTTI: I am starting at -- the
12 question starts at line 10 that I asked him to
13 review.
14 MR. VAN NESS: What page?
15 MS. MENOTTI: Page 17.
16 MR. VAN NESS: Okay. Page 17. Thank
17 you.
18 MR. TAYLOR: You asked him to review
19 lines 10 through 22?
20 MS. MENOTTI: Right, regarding his
21 testimony at the deposition.
22 (The witness reviewed
23 document.)
24 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Have you had a chance to
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1 read that?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Does that refresh your memory at all
4 regarding information of the lateral overfill
5 violations?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Would you like to tell me if you recall
8 any violations regarding the lateral overfill?
9 A No. I answered in that deposition as
10 best as I could recall. The citations for
11 overheight and lateral expansion were addressed in
12 the siting action in the early 1990s. Had the
13 siting action been successful, then problems would
14 have been taken care of.
15 Q Thank you. What was the ultimate
16 disposition of the application for siting?
17 A It was denied by the Macon County Board,
18 and I believe there was also an appeal made and
19 that was also subsequently denied.
20 Q While this siting process was occurring,
21 to the best of your knowledge, was the landfill
22 still open?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And to the best of your knowledge, was
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1 the landfill still receiving waste?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Did you have any discussions with Mr.
4 Camfield regarding the landfill after that request
5 was denied?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Did you, at any point, discuss the height
8 of the landfill?
9 A After the siting was denied?
10 Q Yes.
11 A I don't recall specifically whether we
12 did or did not.
13 Q Did you have any discussions regarding
14 the continuation of the receipt of waste at the
15 landfill?
16 A To the best of my knowledge, I don't
17 believe we discussed that.
18 Q Once the petition was denied, to the best
19 of your knowledge, did the landfill remain open?
20 A Denied at what point?
21 Q When it was denied by the Macon County --
22 by the Macon County Board?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Did the landfill remain open?
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1 A It remained open.
2 Q Did it continue to receive waste?
3 A Yes, it did.
4 Q Did Mr.
Camfield ever indicate to you
5 when he intended to cease accepting waste at the
6 site?
7 A At what point?
8 Q At any time? Did he indicate how long he
9 intended to keep receiving waste at the fill?
10 A Well, if he had gotten his expansion, he
11 would have stopped receiving waste when that
12 landfill was full. And after the siting was
13 denied, it was his intent to continue operation
14 until October of -- sometime in October of 1992,
15 which was a milestone date in the 811 Regulations.
16 That is when the 807 landfills had to close by in
17 order not to come under the 11
Regs.
18 Q Okay. I would like to direct your
19 attention to what has been previously marked as
20 People's Exhibit Number 3. Do you recognize that
21 document?
22 A Yes, I do.
23 Q Do you recognize that document?
24 A Yes, ma'am, I do.
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 Q Is it a document that you generated?
2 A It was generated in my office partially
3 by me and partially by people working under my
4 direction and supervision.
5 Q Okay. Can you briefly summarize what
6 this document is, for the record?
7 A This document is a letter on my firm's
8 stationery dated March 21st, 1996, addressed to Mr.
9 Edwin C.
Bakowski, Manager, Permit Section, Bureau
10 Land, IEPA, and it is referred to their log number
11 of 1991-136, and it is a list of -- it is some
12 response -- the letter, as a whole, are responses
13 to some potential denial points that had been
14 directed to me for a pending supplemental permit at
15 the Agency, and the denial points had come to a
16 letter -- come to me in a letter dated November
17 4th, 1991, and it was signed by Larry
Eastep.
18 Q When you were preparing this document,
19 did you base it on information that you believed
20 was accurate?
21 A Yes, ma'am.
22 Q And to the best of your knowledge, did
23 this -- did the information you included reflect
24 the condition at the Waste Hauling Landfill or at
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 the time it was submitted?
2 A I am not sure I understand exactly your
3 question.
4 Q The information that you -- that was used
5 to generate this, was it based on information and
6 knowledge you had regarding the landfill at that
7 time?
8 A Yes, but there was some information that
9 was included that reflected the conditions at the
10 landfill at earlier times.
11 Q Okay. I would like to direct your
12 attention to the Attachment C of this document.
13 A Okay.
14 Q Could you please tell me what this
15 attachment is entitled?
16 A Attachment C, and the title page of the
17 document is, "Revised Closure, Post-Closure Care
18 Plan."
19 Q Could you turn to the fourth page of the
20 attachment, please?
21 A Okay.
22 Q I am sorry. I said -- can you go to the
23 fifth page?
24 A The fifth?
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1 Q That's the page right there, the fourth
2 page of the text after the -- turn to the next
3 page. I am looking for the page that starts with
4 the narrative across the top of it.
5 A Okay.
6 Q Can you, please, for the record, read the
7 caption across the top of the page so everybody
8 knows what we are looking at?
9 A The narrative across the top of the page
10 reads, "Narrative/Comment, Closure, Post-Closure
11 Care Plan, Decatur/Waste Hauling Landfill, site
12 number 1158010001, April 1991, revised March 1996."
13 Q Is there anywhere on this page that
14 indicates what the elevation of the active area of
15 the -- or what the elevation of the area that had
16 been active in 1992, what the elevation was there?
17 A Item number 6, fill area number two, and
18 item C under that lists the top elevation as 700
19 plus.
20 Q Could you tell me how that number
21 compares with the permitted contours that you
22 testified to earlier?
23 A Some 60 feet higher.
24 Q At that point in time, Mr.
Krimmel, to
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1 your knowledge, was the 640 foot perimeter still
2 the permitted perimeter?
3 A Yes.
4 MS. MENOTTI: One minute, please.
5 (Mr. Davis and Ms.
Menotti
6 confer briefly.)
7 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) You can set that
8 document aside. I just have one last area of
9 questions.
10 During your -- during your deposition a
11 document was tendered from your file, and I
12 would -- I am going to have it marked and show it
13 to other Counsel, but my question first is would
14 you be able to identify documents that you have
15 generated -- a document that you generated
16 regarding the Waste Hauling Landfill from your
17 file?
18 A I have to see it first.
19 Q Let me have it marked, and we will see if
20 you recall what this is.
21 A All right.
22 MS. MENOTTI: Could you mark this,
23 please.
24 (Whereupon said document was
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1 duly marked for purposes of
2 identification as People's
3 Exhibit 13 as of this date.)
4 MR. LATSHAW: Is this on the list?
5 MS. MENOTTI: Yes.
6 (Ms.
Menotti showed People's
7 Exhibit 13 to Mr. Van
Ness, Mr.
8
Latshaw and Mr. Taylor.)
9 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Mr. Krimmel, I am
10 handing you what has been marked as People's
11 Exhibit Number 13. Do you recognize that?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Is it a document that you generated?
14 A Not personally.
15 Q Was it a document that was generated by
16 your firm?
17 A Yes, it was a document that was generated
18 by people in my employ under my supervision.
19 Q Could you identify what this document is?
20 A It is a copy of surveyor's field notes
21 from October 18th, 1991, where we measured the
22 height of some stakes or the elevation of some
23 stakes that were placed at or near the top of the
24 Waste Hauling Landfill, fill area number two.
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KEEFE REPORTING COMPANY
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1 Q Could you please look closely at it and
2 tell me if it is a true and accurate copy of the
3 document?
4 A Yes, I believe it is.
5 Q This document regards only area two of
6 the fill?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Could you, based on this document, tell
9 me what the points of vertical elevation are and
10 the mean sea level?
11 A We show three points, stakes number one,
12 two and three, and the elevations are 681.8, 695.1,
13 685.4, respectively.
14 Q How do those numbers compare with the
15 permitted elevation contours?
16 A They are higher.
17 Q Can you, for the record, tell me what the
18 date of the document is?
19 A October 18th, 1991.
20 Q Mr.
Krimmel, excuse me for my lack of
21 technical expertise, but if you would not mind,
22 would you, for the record, explain what the numbers
23 in the first column on the left-hand side indicate?
24 A Could you be specific about the numbers?
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1 Q There are a bunch of numbers listed in
2 the column with -- it appears to be degree marks
3 and measurements.
4 A The numbers that you speak about are
5 angles that we measured or recorded from the
6 electronic survey device, and it is part of the
7 process of locating the stakes that we had placed
8 on top of the fill.
9 Q Did you indicate -- do these degrees and
10 measurements indicate which part of the landfill --
11 would you be able to -- does that identify any
12 specific area on the landfill, on the map? I am --
13 A I have nothing in front of me at this
14 point that tells me where these points were exactly
15 on the landfill.
16 Q I guess, just for my own understanding,
17 then, the first set of three numbers there indicate
18 degrees and angles that are used to indicate where
19 stakes have been placed at the landfill?
20 A When one uses electronic equipment of
21 this type, you start from points -- from a known
22 point, both horizontal and vertically, and you make
23 what we call a back sight on some line that we know
24 the azimuth or the bearing of, and we measure
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1 angles and distances from those known points and
2 known azimuths to determine -- well, it gives you
3 the mathematical data that we need to compute the
4 location of other points.
5 Q Okay.
6 A This was the process that was used in the
7 preparation of this document.
8 MR. DAVIS: Could we have a minute,
9 please.
10 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right.
11 MR. DAVIS: Thank you.
12 (Whereupon a short recess was
13 taken.)
14 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Back on the
15 record.
16 Please continue.
17 MS. MENOTTI: Thank you.
18 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) Mr. Krimmel, can you
19 give me a description of how this survey was
20 generated, what the process was to generate this
21 data?
22 A The survey crew would have gone into the
23 field and they would have located points that we
24 would have established at an earlier time for other
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1 work. It is typical to place either permanent or
2 semi-permanent monuments in and around these
3 facilities, from which future surveys, such as this
4 one, can be made.
5 It appears, from the document that we are
6 talking about here, that he based his survey on an
7 iron pin, which had an elevation of 600.7 plus or
8 minus, is what I believe it reads. I do not have
9 sufficient data in front of me to tell you where
10 that pin is or where that monument is on the map.
11 Q Okay. And from the reference point of
12 the iron pin, do the surveyors then take
13 measurements from that point?
14 A It would appear that he used an iron pin
15 and then a top of a protective casing that was
16 identified as B24, which was -- I am guessing that
17 that was a temporary or a permanent groundwater
18 monitoring well that we would have installed to
19 collect data for preparation of the groundwater
20 monitoring plan.
21 Q And were those points used to gather data
22 to determine the elevation heights at various
23 points?
24 A Well, in surveyor's terms, we started
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1 with two points of known location, both
2 horizontally and vertically, and from that we could
3 take measurements to then give us mathematical data
4 that we could compute other points, the horizontal
5 and vertical location of the other points.
6 Q Okay.
7 A Of other points.
8 Q Is there any data on this survey that is
9 indicative of any lateral measurements or the
10 lateral width of the landfill?
11 A No, there is not.
12 Q In summary, and I am not certain if this
13 is a correct
ascertation on my part. This is for
14 clarification. The process of the survey done
15 establishes heights of elevation and was being
16 referred to as fill area two at the Waste Hauling
17 Landfill?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Am I incorrect in that
ascertation at
20 all? I am asking for accuracy to make sure that it
21 was correctly portrayed -- I am correctly
22 portraying this for the Board.
23 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Do you
24 understand the question, Mr.
Krimmel?
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1 THE WITNESS: No.
2 MS. MENOTTI: I am sorry.
3 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Try again, Ms.
4 Menotti.
5 Q (By Ms.
Menotti) I am sorry. Due to my
6 lack of technical expertise regarding surveying, my
7 question is, in the way that we have been talking
8 about the surveying and what the results were, in
9 your opinion, is the information that we have been
10 talking about accurate?
11 A To the best of my knowledge it is
12 accurate, yes.
13 MS. MENOTTI: I don't have any further
14 questions regarding this survey document.
15 At this point I would ask that it be
16 admitted as People's Exhibit Number 13.
17 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Any objection,
18 Mr. Van
Ness?
19 MR. VAN NESS: No.
20 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Mr. Taylor?
21 MR. TAYLOR: No.
22 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: May I see the
23 exhibit, please?
24 Mr.
Krimmel, what do the numbers to the
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1 right of the words stake one, stake two, and stake
2 three mean?
3 THE WITNESS: I believe that those are
4 coordinates that refer to the coordinate system
5 that we established for the project.
6 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right.
7 Thank you.
8 People's Exhibit Number 13 is admitted
9 into evidence.
10 (Whereupon said document was
11 admitted into evidence as
12 People's Exhibit 13 as of this
13 date.)
14 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Do you have
15 further questions of Mr.
Krimmel?
16 MS. MENOTTI: At this time that is all I
17 have for Mr.
Krimmel.
18 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: When you say
19 "at this time," do you anticipate recalling Mr.
20 Krimmel?
21 MS. MENOTTI: We may need to recall this
22 witness for the second portion of this hearing.
23 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right.
24 Cross-examination?
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1 MR. VAN NESS: Yes, just a couple
2 questions.
3 CROSS EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. VAN NESS:
5 Q Mr.
Krimmel, for point of reference, I
6 notice that in People's Exhibit 13 you indicated
7 that there were three elevations; is that correct?
8 A We determined, yes, three new elevations.
9 Q Okay. And is it fair to say that none of
10 them reaches 700 feet?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q Okay. So notwithstanding what was in the
13 item number 6 for People's Exhibit 3, as you were
14 referred to by Ms.
Menotti, where it stated 700
15 feet plus, you do not have information that
16 indicates that the actual conditions were at 700
17 feet plus?
18 A That is correct. We had no survey data
19 at that point.
20 Q And in point of fact, do you know today,
21 sir, what the elevation, the top elevation of that
22 landfill is?
23 A I do not.
24 MR. VAN NESS: Nothing further.
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1 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Mr. Taylor?
2 MR. TAYLOR: Yes, I do have several
3 questions.
4 CROSS EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. TAYLOR:
6 Q To follow-up on that same point, while it
7 is fresh in your mind, this survey, which I believe
8 has been marked as People's Exhibit 13, that was
9 prepared in 1991?
10 A Yes, it is dated October 18th, 1991.
11 Q Okay. And Exhibit 3, with reference to
12 the 700 plus elevation -- if you would like to look
13 at it --
14 A Yes, I know.
15 Q That was prepared -- when did you prepare
16 that?
17 A The closure, post-closure care plan was
18 revised in March of 1996. I don't recall if that
19 particular elevation -- well, I don't recall if
20 that particular elevation was revised at that time
21 or if it was a part of the original April 19,
22 1991. I will say I had no survey measurements to
23 show that it was 700.
24 Q Okay. But you did write 700?
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1 A I did write 700, yes, sir.
2 Q Did you have a reason to believe that you
3 needed to increase the estimate to approximately
4 700 feet?
5 A Honestly, I do not recall why I wrote
6 700.
7 Q Okay. Also, just for purposes of
8 clarification, Mr. Wallace asked the question
9 earlier referring to mean sea level. Are all of
10 the elevations that we have been discussing, the
11 640 permitted height, and the 695 from the survey,
12 all of those represent feet at mean sea level?
13 A Feet above --
14 Q Okay. Feet above.
15 A -- mean sea level.
16 Q Okay. I am sorry for speaking over you.
17 Are you familiar with the types of waste received
18 at the landfill, at the Waste Hauling Landfill?
19 A Somewhat, yes.
20 Q Can you generally describe it?
21 A Mr.
Camfield received household waste,
22 municipal solid waste, I believe almost exclusively
23 from his own garbage routes that he had in and
24 around the City of Decatur. And he took several
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1 special wastes, permitted special wastes from many
2 of the local industries in and around Decatur.
3 Q To the best of your knowledge, when did
4 the landfill cease receiving waste?
5 A On the basis of the court order, I
6 believe it was May of 1995. No.
7 Q 1992?
8 A I am sorry. Yes, May of 1992. It was on
9 the basis of the Circuit Court order.
10 Q I knew it was not in 1995. Is it your
11 testimony now that they ceased receiving waste, to
12 the best of your knowledge, in May of 1992?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Okay. Have you prepared in the past
15 various closure, post-closure care applications or
16 submittals to the Illinois Environmental Protection
17 Agency?
18 A For this landfill?
19 Q Yes, for this landfill.
20 A Yes. Three, to be exact.
21 Q Three. Do you remember the approximate
22 dates of those plans?
23 A We did one, I believe, in 1988 and one in
24 1989 and one in 1991.
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1 Q Okay. Was there an addendum to the 1991
2 application?
3 A Yes, there was.
4 Q Okay. Was that submitted?
5 A Yes, it was.
6 Q Do you know the approximate date of that
7 submittal?
8 A March the 21st, 1996.
9 Q Okay. Have any of those plans for
10 closure, post-closure care been approved, to your
11 knowledge?
12 A No, they have not.
13 Q Would it be accurate to say that there is
14 no approved design for the final cover cap of this
15 landfill?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Are you aware of any efforts by Mr.
18 Camfield to install cover material on top of the
19 landfill?
20 MR. VAN NESS: Mr. Hearing Officer, I
21 guess I am going to have to object. I don't see
22 that this is within the realm of the direct
23 examination. It seems to be going beyond the range
24 of the direct examination. I understood this
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1 witness is available for cross at this time.
2 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Mr. Taylor?
3 MR. TAYLOR: We did not call Mr.
Krimmel
4 as a witness for Bell Sports, because we were aware
5 that he was being called by the State and by the
6 Landfill. And it was our understanding that he
7 would be prepared to discuss his knowledge of the
8 landfill and its operations at today's hearing as
9 they relate to the solid waste issues, as opposed
10 to the hazardous waste issues.
11 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: In the scheme
12 of things I do believe your questions are beyond
13 the scope of the People's direct.
14 Let's go off the record a minute.
15 (Discussion off the record.)
16 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Back on the
17 record.
18 We have had an extensive off-the-record
19 discussion concerning continued questioning of Mr.
20 Krimmel. My ruling is that the questions appear to
21 be beyond the scope of the direct examination and
22 would be getting somewhat out of the order that we
23 have established in this case.
24 With that in mind, if you have additional
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1 questions that would be within the scope, I will
2 allow those.
3 MR. TAYLOR: No, I do not. I would just
4 like to further clarify that I think we agreed
5 during the off-the-record discussion that I would
6 be able to pursue these lines of appropriate
7 questions during the next proceeding some time in
8 April.
9 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Yes. Bell
10 Sports is not foreclosed from questioning Mr.
11 Krimmel at a later point in time, either at our
12 next continued hearing or thereafter when the State
13 rests and Waste Hauling presents its case.
14 Ms.
Menotti, did you have any redirect?
15 MS. MENOTTI: No, I don't.
16 EXAMINATION
17 BY HEARING OFFICER WALLACE:
18 Q All right. Mr.
Krimmel, the iron pin
19 that you mentioned is a -- do you have a term for
20 that at all? Do you call it any name?
21 A An iron pin is basically probably a half
22 inch concrete
rebar 30 to 36 inches long that is
23 driven into the ground at some convenient spot out
24 of the way of traffic, and it is there as a
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1 semi-permanent monument as part of our surveys
2 around there.
3 Q All right. Who puts the pin in?
4 A The survey crew.
5 Q And when do they put it in?
6 A They no doubt put this point in when they
7 did subsequent survey work down out at the site.
8 This is one page out of several within a field
9 book. So he was no doubt referring to points --
10 Q Well, let me back up, then. The iron
11 pin, you cannot say when it was put into the
12 ground?
13 A Not from the information that I have in
14 front of me.
15 Q In the surveying language you call it a
16 monument, then?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Now, is there any final report that was
19 made up from these field notes?
20 A I don't recall if I got any written
21 report or not.
22 Q On the blueprint map there, the aerial
23 survey, could you briefly describe how that process
24 works to arrive at that survey with the contours?
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1 A Basic aerial photography -- are you
2 familiar with the old -- or maybe not the old --
3 but the 3-D, 35 millimeter cameras, like a View
4 Master, that takes a view --
5 Q Ms.
Menotti and I have something in
6 common. I am not very technical, either.
7 A Do you remember the View Masters we
8 looked at when we were kids?
9 Q Yes.
10 A You looked at two pictures and you could
11 see three-dimensions by looking at two pictures.
12 Okay. If you were in an airplane or at some high
13 altitude, if you take two pictures and look at them
14 through a stereoscope, you can then see it in
15 three-dimension.
16 Now, in actuality, when these maps are
17 prepared, an airplane with a sophisticated camera
18 will fly over this site at some elevation,
19 depending on what scale and what contour interval
20 you want, and it takes a series of overlapping
21 pictures.
22 So in the overlap, you have your two
23 pictures that you can then look at and see it in
24 three-dimension. The negatives are then placed --
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1 let me back up just a second. Well, I can go
2 ahead.
3 The negatives are then placed in a
4 sophisticated machine that can see this in
5 three-dimension, and then has the -- then by taking
6 points of known horizontal and vertical location on
7 the ground, then it can take measurements from
8 these pictures that you look at in stereo, and we
9 call this stereo, this pair of pictures, a model.
10 Now, before they set up the model and
11 after the flight, we do what is called ground
12 control, which we go out and in the vicinity of the
13 area that we want mapped, we will locate what we
14 call photo identifiable points. We will get what
15 we call X, Y and Z coordinates, which are the
16 horizontal location and the elevation or the
17 vertical location of these points.
18 Given the information from the ground
19 control, they can then establish their photo model,
20 and then the -- I don't recall the name of the
21 machine, but the machine then is able to measure X,
22 Y and Z coordinates from the photographs. And then
23 they go -- then these maps are produced from that,
24 and there are several steps in between. But that
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1 is generally how it is done.
2 There is a big drawing board off to the
3 side and an operator looking through a scope and
4 plots the points as they are read. Modern day
5 aerial photography is able to do this digitally and
6 the computer will print it and we can enter the
7 information into a computer and it will print it
8 out.
9 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right.
10 Thank you. That was very helpful.
11 Thank you, Mr.
Krimmel. We will probably
12 be seeing you again.
13 (The witness left the stand.)
14 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Anything
15 further today, Ms.
Menotti?
16 MS. MENOTTI: No. At this point the
17 State has no more testimony or evidence to present
18 regarding Counts 5 and 6 of the complaint.
19 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right.
20 Anything further?
21 MR. VAN NESS: No, nothing further.
22 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Mr. Taylor,
23 anything further from Bell Sports today?
24 MR. TAYLOR: I guess not today.
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1 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right.
2 Then we will stand adjourned to April 15th and
3 16th. Mr. Van
Ness informed me earlier, and I
4 think he informed everyone else, that he has a
5 conflict on the 14th.
6 I am having a bit of a problem with
7 rooms, so I will have to let you know where we will
8 be.
9 MR. DAVIS: We have a large conference
10 room in our building.
11 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: How large is
12 it?
13 MR. DAVIS: It will seat 22 people around
14 the table. It is large enough for us.
15 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Is there any
16 objection to that? If I can't find anything, then
17 Mr. Davis' offer might be a last resort.
18 MR. DAVIS: The acoustics are good and
19 the chairs are comfortable.
20 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: For some reason
21 April is not a good month for hearings around here.
22 I understand your objection to having the
23 hearing in the Attorney General's office.
24 MR. DAVIS: I don't.
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1 (Laughter.)
2 MR. VAN NESS: As a last resort I guess
3 we have no objection.
4 MR. TAYLOR: I assume we will try to find
5 someplace else.
6 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: I will let
7 everyone know as soon as I can.
8 All right. If there be nothing further,
9 we stand adjourned. Thank you.
10 (Discussion off the record.)
11 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Back on the
12 record.
13 I told everyone we were adjourned, but we
14 are not off the record yet.
15 We completed a short discussion on the
16 motion to amend the answer, which I did grant and
17 the motion to extend discovery, which I did grant
18 yesterday. I will follow-up with the written
19 Hearing Officer order.
20 With that in mind, the extension on
21 discovery is limited to the Waste Hauling Landfill
22 doing very limited discovery in terms of tracking
23 down some lab employees of
Westen (spelled
24 phonetically) Lab and, again, limited
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1 interrogatories to Bell Sports concerning the new
2 amendment to the answer.
3 MR. LATSHAW: Does that include the
4 request to produce? I would like the documents
5 used to answer the questions.
6 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: I am sorry?
7 The documents they use to --
8 MR. LATSHAW: Well, if they use -- in
9 answering the interrogatories, if they rely on
10 documents, I would like to have the copies of the
11 documents that they used to rely upon to answer the
12 questions.
13 MR. TAYLOR: We have no objection.
14 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: All right.
15 There is no objection. That would be included
16 also.
17 Now, is there anything else?
18 MS. MENOTTI: That was it. That was the
19 only outstanding issue, I think, that we had.
20 MR. LATSHAW: What is that?
21 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: That was the
22 only outstanding issue we had.
23 MR. LATSHAW: Yes.
24 HEARING OFFICER WALLACE: Okay. Then we
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1 stand adjourned to April 15th. Thank you.
2 (All hearing exhibits were
3 retained by Hearing Officer
4 Wallace.)
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1 STATE OF ILLINOIS )
) SS
2 COUNTY OF MONTGOMERY)
3 C E R T I F I C A T E
4 I, DARLENE M. NIEMEYER, a Notary Public
5 in and for the County of Montgomery, State of
6 Illinois, DO HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing 122
7 pages comprise a true, complete and correct
8 transcript of the proceedings held on the 4th of
9 March
A.D., 1997, at the Illinois State Library,
10 300 South Second Street, in the Illinois Authors
11 Meeting Room, Springfield, Illinois, in the case of
12 The People of the State of Illinois v. Bell Sports,
13 Inc. and Waste Hauling Landfill, Inc. and Waste
14 Hauling, Inc. in proceedings held before the
15 Honorable Michael L. Wallace, Hearing Officer, and
16 recorded in machine shorthand by me.
17 IN WITNESS WHEREOF I have hereunto set my
18 hand and affixed my
Notarial Seal this 12th day of
19 March
A.D., 1997.
20
21
Notary Public and
22 Certified Shorthand Reporter and
Registered Professional Reporter
23
CSR License No. 084-003677
24 My Commission Expires: 03-02-99
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