IN
THE
MATTER
OF:
WATER
QUALITY
STANDARDS
AND
EFFLUENT
LIMITATIONS
FOR THE
CHICAGO
AREA
WATERWAY
SYSTEM AND
THE LOWER
DES
PLAINES
RIVER:
PROPOSED
AMENDMENTS
TO
35 Ill.
Adm.
Code
Parts
301,
302, 303
and 304
IS
ard
Page
1
ILLINOIS
POLLUTION CONTROL
BOARD
NOVEMBER
10,
2009
NOV
1c
STATE
OF
ILLIM
PolluUon
Control
B
R08—9
(Rulemaking
-
Water)
REPORT
OF
PROCEEDINGS
at the hearing
of
the
above—entitled
cause
before
Marie
Tipsord,
Hearing
Officer,
taken before
Rebecca
A.
Graziano,
Certified
Shorthand
Reporter within
and
for
the County
of
Cook
and
State
of Illinois,
at
the Bilandic
Building,
Room
N-502, Chicago,
Illinois,
commencing
at
the
hour of
1:15 on
the 10th
day
of
November,
A.D.,
2009.
Page
2
1
APPEARANCES
2
ILLINOIS
POLLUTION
CONTROL
BOARD:
3
Ms. Marie
Tipsord,
Hearing
Officer
4
Ms.
Alisa
Liu,
P.E.,
Environmental
Scientist
Mr.
Anand
Rao,
Senior
Environmental
Scientist
5
Mr.
G.
Tanner
Girard,
Acting
Chairman
Mr.
Shundar
Lin
6
Mr.
Thomas
Johnson
Ms.
Andrea
Moore
7
8
ILLINOIS
ENVIRONMENTAL
PROTECTION
AGENCY:
9
Ms.
Stefanie
Diers
Ms.
Deborah
Williams
10
11
ENVIRONMENTAL
LAW AND
POLICY
CENTER,
33
East
Wacker
Drive
12
Suite
1300
Chicago,
Illinois
60601
13
(312)
795—3707
BY:
MR.
ALBERT
ETTINGER
14
MS.
JESSICA
DEXTER
15
Appeared
on
behalf
of
ELPC,
Prairie
Rivers
Network,
and
Sierra
Club,
16
17
FRANZETTI
LAW FIRM
P.C.
10
South
LaSalle
Street
18
Suite
3600
Chicago,
IL
60603
19
(312)
251—5590
BY:
MS. SUSAN
FRANZETTI
20
Appeared
on
behalf
of
the
Midwest
Generation,
21
L.L.C.,
22
23
24
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Page
9
1
but
I have
not
personally
been involved
in
those
2
studies.
3
MR. ETTINGER:
Okay.
Now,
we
touched
4
on
this
before,
but I
just
want
to
ask
the,
sort
of,
5
general
question.
Can lakes
meet
Clean
Water
Act
6
standards?
7
MR.
SEEGERT:
My
short
answer
would
be
8
yes,
they
can.
9
MR. ETTINGER:
Would
you
use
the
10
same
——
how
would
you
go about
determining
whether
a
11
lake
was
meeting
Clean Water
Act
standards?
12
MR.
SEEGERT:
Well, that’s
a good
13
question.
14
MR.
ETTINGER:
Thank
you.
15
MS.
F’RANZETTI:
Don’t
encourage
him.
16
MR.
SEEGERT:
The
-— and
actually,
17
there’s
a
fair
amount
of
research
in
that
arena.
18
The state
that
I’m most
familiar
with that’s
19
pursuing
that
is
Wisconsin.
20
Wisconsin
believes
that
21
they
-- their
goal
is to
try
to come
up
22
with
-— we’ll
just call
it
a
lake
IBI.
So again,
23
you
would have
obviously
different
metrics.
But
24
conceptually,
it’s
the
same.
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Page 13
1
follow-up?
2
MR. ETTINGER:
You’re
the
boss
here.
3
DR.
GIRARD:
Wisconsin is trying
to
4
formalize
the
procedure
for
evaluating
lakes.
5
Illinois
does not
have
a formalized
procedure
at
6
this
point
in
time?
7
MR.
SEEGERT:
That’s
correct.
8
DR. GIRARD:
Thank
you.
9
MR.
ETTINGER:
What
kinds
of
fish
10
sampling
gear
does
EA use?
11
MR.
SEEGERT:
I’m sorry.
What
kind of
12
gear?
13
MR.
ETTINGER:
What
kind of
equipment
14
do
you
use
for
fish
sampling?
15
MR.
SEEGERT:
Are
we talking
about
16
this
series
of
waterways?
17
MR.
ETTINGER:
Yes,
I’m sorry.
18
Limit
—- just
tell
me what
you
have
used
to sample
19
this
--
the waterways
that
you consider
relevant
to
20
this proceeding.
21
MR.
SEEGERT:
Well,
Mr.
Vondruska’s
22
our
gear
guru.
23
MR.
ETTINGER:
We
haven’t
heard
enough
24
from
you.
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Page
18
1
in
terms
of
the
size
or the
depth in
catching
-—
of
2
what
you caught,
I’d
want
to
know
what
method
you
3
used.
4
MR.
SEEGERT:
Yes,
that’s
correct.
5
MR.
ETTINGER:
Okay.
Okay.
Now,
6
turning
to
Page
6 of your
testimony,
you speak
7
of
—- I’ll
just
read
the ——
8
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Albert,
this is
not
a
9
pre—filed
question?
So do
we need
to go
look --
10
MR.
ETTINGER:
I’m going
to --
it’s
11
not
a
pre—filed
question.
“Fish
species
that are
12
habit
generalists,
such
as
common
carp,
gizzard
13
shad,
and
channel
catfish,
as
well
as
pelagic
14
species,
such
as
emerald
shiner
and
fresh water
15
drum,
do quite
well
with
impounded
systems.
16
What
I want
to
ask
you
as
to
each
17
of those
fish
is whether
it is temperature
18
intolerant.
19
MR.
SEEGERT:
Yeah.
20
MR.
ETTINGER:
And I
don’t
want
to put
21
words
in
your
mouth,
so
how
sensitive
are
common
22
carp
to high
temperatures,
compared
to
other
fish?
23
MR.
SEEGERT:
They
are
not
temperature
24
sensitive.
Page
19
1
MR.
ETTINGER:
And
how
are
gizzard
2
shad.
3
MR.
SEEGERT:
Same
answer.
4
MR. ETTINGER:
Channel
catfish?
5
MR.
SEEGERT:
The same
answer.
6
MR. ETTINGER:
Channel
catfish
are not
7
temperature
sensitive?
8
MR.
SEEGERT:
Not
in the
spectrum
of,
9
you
know, from
trout
and one
end and
carp
close
to
10
the
other
end.
But
they’re
closer
to
the
11
nonserisitive
end
than
the
sensitive
end.
12
MR.
ETTINGER:
Well,
would
channel
13
catfish
be less
sensitive
than
carp
—- I’m
14
sorry
-— more
sensitive
than
carp?
15
MR. SEEGERT:
To temperature?
16
MR.
ETTINGER:
Yes.
17
MR.
SEEGERT:
They’re
--
just going
on
18
my recollection,
I
would
say
they’re
close,
but
19
they’re
slightly
more
sensitive
—— or
20
slightly
--
yeah,
slightly
more
sensitive
than carp.
21
MR.
ETTINGER:
If
you
wanted
to
look
22
that up,
what
would
you
look
at?
23
MR.
SEEGERT:
There’s
various
24
compilations
that
list upper
lethal
temperatures.
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22
23
24
Page
22
the
—- that some
people
have
suggested
that there
should
be a disconnect
between
Lake Michigan
and
the
Ship Canal.
I’m not
familiar with
the specific
report that
you’re
citing.
MR.
ETTINGER:
And
you
don’t know
whether
they were
serious
or not?
MR.
SEEGERT:
No, I
don’t.
MR.
ETTINGER:
Okay.
Have
you
-- on
Page 6 of
your testimony,
you state
that
you discuss
the Fox
River and,
for example,
extensive
studies
of
the
nearby
Fox River,
funded in
part
by U.S.
EPA,
documented
significant
and
widespread
adverse
impacts on
the
aquatic
communities
due to
the
effects
of
the
impounding.
And
then
we
see
Exhibit
2,
Attachment
3.
The
first
question is
easy. Is
Exhibit 2,
Attachment
3, this
paper
by
Victor
Santucci,
Steven
Gerhart,
and
Steven
Pescatelli?
MR. SEEGERT:
Yes,
it is.
MR.
ETTINGER:
Okay.
On
Page 988
of
that
study
-— I
supplied
a
copy. There’s
not
actually
988
pages in the
record,
we’ll all
be happy
to
hear
-— it
states
in the
bottom
of the
left
column,
“Phosphorus
and
nitrogen loading
from
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Page 24
1
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Well, my
point is
2
only
-- and
you just
did it again
-- when
you
go
3
beyond what
you just
read --
4
MR.
ETTINGER:
I’m not going
beyond
--
5
MS.
FRANZETTI:
--
and say other
6
problems
in this report.
7
MR.
ETTINGER:
The other
problems
8
discussed
in
the
reading that
I
made.
9
MR. SEEGERT:
We have
not specifically
10
looked
at
the
nutrient issue
in the Upper
Dresden
11
island
Pool
or in the
Chicago Sanitary
and Ship
12
Canal.
I
do
know
that there
are or can
be
some
13
fairly large
fluctuations
in the
old values that
14
presumably
would
be a
result
of this -—
the daily
15
cycle that
you’re referring
to.
16
MR.
ETTINGER:
When
you say
we,
do
you
17
mean EA?
18
MR. SEEGERT:
EA.
So
we have
seen
DO
19
values that
—- well,
we’ve
seen
—— let me
rephrase
20
that.
21
I don’t know
if we’ve done
any
22
work at night,
so
we don’t
know what
the
DO
values
23
are at night.
But we
have seen
highly elevated
24
levels
during the
day,
indicating
a
lot
of
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Page 28
1
include
areas
where there
might
have been anchor
2
worm, which
is a parasite.
So
they don’t
consider
a
3
wound
caused
by
an anchor
worm
to be a
DELT anomaly.
4
That
goes
more
into the
just
general
anomalies.
5
It’s
not
a
DELT
anomaly.
6
Joe, do
you
have anything
to
add
7
on that?
8
MR.
VONDRUSKA:
No.
That’s
correct,
9
you have
to be
careful
looking
at
the lesions
to
10
make
sure it’s in
the —-
11
MR. ETTINGER:
Would fungal
growth
be
12
a
DELT
anomaly?
13
MR.
VONDRUSKA:
Fungal
growth,
14
not —-
no.
15
MR. ETTINGER:
Do fish have
-— do fish
16
get
fungal growth?
17
MR.
VONDRUSKA:
Sure.
Now,
getting
18
back
to
-- you
had another
question
regarding DELTs.
19
I
believe
Ohio EPA’s
manual
refers
to
flexi-bacteria
20
as
causing, like,
fin
erosion.
21
MR.
ETTINGER:
So flexi—bacteria
does
22
count
for
DELTs,
but not other
--
23
MR. SEEGERT:
Well,
it’s the
——
it’s
24
the end
result.
The
flexi—bacteria
caused
the
fin
Page
29
1
to be
eaten
away.
So
what you’re
measuring in
the
2
DELT is
fin
erosion.
Basically
that
bacteria is
3
literally
eating away
at that fin,
and
4
flexi—bacteria
are
one of
the things
that can
cause
5
fin erosion.
6
MR.
ETTINGER:
And what
causes
7
flexi-bacteria?
8
MR. SEEGERT:
My
understanding
--
9
MS. FRANZETTI:
If
you
know.
10
MR.
ETTINGER:
You can
always
say I
11
don’t know.
12
MS. F’RANZETTI:
Right.
13
MR.
SEEGERT:
Flexi—bacteria
are
in
14
the
water. I
think they’re
always there.
And
then
15
when fish
get
stressed,
their
immune system
gets
16
refused and the
flexi—bacteria
are
able
to
grab
17
hold.
18
Basically,
other
things are
19
reducing
their immune
system,
and
so
it’s
not
just
20
flexi
—— that’s
one
—— flexi—bacteria,
that’s
just
21
one example
they give.
Anything
that
basically
22
really
stresses
out,
you
know,
the fish seriously.
23
MR.
ETTINGER:
Okay.
Along
with
24
Pollution
Control
Board
hearings?
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Page
31
1
MR.
ETTINGER:
Okay.
All
right.
2
Looking
now
at
the
document
that
was
3
Attachment
1
--
I
hope
that’s
Attachment
1
--
4
Detailed
Summary
of
EA
Engineering
Science
and
5
Technology
Stream
Surveys
for
the
Upper
Illinois
6
Waterway,
1993
to
2006.
I’m
just
making
sure
I
read
7
this
right.
You’ve
got
mean
IWB
mod.
8
MR.
SEEGERT:
Sir,
where
are
you
9
reading
from?
10
MR.
ETTINGER:
I’m
sorry.
I’m
on
11
Page
5.
We’ve
discussed
this
concept
somewhat
12
before
I
think.
I
just
want
to
make
sure
I
13
understand
it
in
context.
So
the
mean
IWB
mod,
an
14
index
of
what
the
fish
community
health
scores
were,
15
and
then
you
have
numbers
for
Lockport?
16
MR.
SEEGERT:
Yes.
17
MR.
ETTINGER:
What
is
the
scale
that
18
goes
on?
19
MR.
SEEGERT:
Well,
it’s
a
log
scale.
20
So
in
theory,
you
could
get
—-
I
don’t
know
that
21
there’s
any
absolute
upper
end.
I
mean,
if
you
22
caught
one
million
fish,
you’d
get
a
very
high
23
number.
But
in
a
practical
sense,
about
the
highest
24
value
I’ve
ever
seen
is
about
an
11.
Page
32
1
MR.
ETTINGER:
Now, I forget,
you
said
2
below
that,
5.2 and
5.3 are poor,
and
6.5,
at least,
3
is
fair,
according
to this
sheet. Where
do
those
4
ratings come
from?
5
MR.
SEEGERT:
Well, in
the last
full
6
sentence —-
well, the
sentence
immediately
above
the
7
scores
that
you’re
referring
to
says
using IWB
mod
8
criteria
established
by Ohio
EPA.
So
we’re
using
9
their
criteria,
so
it
came
from —— the
cutoffs
came
10
from Ohio
EPA.
11
MR. ETTINGER:
Okay.
We went over
12
some of
this before.
Was that
the criteria
that
13
they
developed
after they
decided
they couldn’t
use
14
the IBI stores
for
nonweightable
streams?
15
MR.
SEEGERT:
By they?
16
MR.
ETTINGER:
Meaning
Ohio EPA.
17
MR. SEEGERT:
Ohio
EPA?
18
MR.
ETTINGER:
Well, let’s
-—
19
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Counsel,
is
the
20
question
is the
IWB mod criteria
something
they
21
developed
after
they decided
--
22
MR.
ETTINGER:
Well, why don’t
I
just
23
drop
-— what’s
your
understanding
of the
development
24
of
the IWB
mod
criteria?
Page
33
1
MR.
SEEGERT:
It preceded
the IBI
that
2
the
IBW
—- not
the
mod version.
IWB
was
developed
3
around
1970
by
Dr. James
Gamon
during
his
work
on
4
the
Wabash
River.
And
then Ohio
EPA
--
Mr.
Yoder
5
was a
former
student
of
Dr.
Gamon.
So he
learned
it
6
from
Dr.
Gamon.
7
When
Mr.
Yoder
went to
Ohio
EPA,
8
he
thought
this
would be
an appropriate
thing
to
use
9
at
my Agency,
and
so
they started
using
it in
its
10
unmodified
form,
and
then
at
some point
they
decided
11
it
was
-— it
should
be modified,
which
they did,
and
12
then
also
at
or
around
that same
time
was when
the
13
IBI was
coming
out.
14
So
now,
in
most water
bodies,
Ohio
15
EPA uses
both
of those
indexes
to
——
for
fish
to
16
determine
detainment. They
use both
IWB mod
and
the
17
IBI.
18
MR.
ETTINGER:
Does EA
use
lB --
19
whatever
it
is?
20
MS.
FRANZETTI:
B?
21
MR. ETTINGER:
B
mod.
Does
EA
use
it?
22
MR.
SEEGERT:
Use
it
as compared
to
23
the
IWB?
Or,
I mean,
what
24
MR.
ETTINGER:
Do
you
use either
of
Page
34
1
them?
2
MR.
SEEGERT:
Yes,
yes.
3
MR.
ETTINGER:
Okay.
Do you
think
4
they’re
a
sound
methodology
for
assessing
the
health
5
in the
aquatic
community?
6
MS.
FRANZETTI:
And
Albert,
both
IBI
7
and
IWB
mod, or
IWB
and
IWB
mod?
8
MR.
ETTINGER:
Why
don’t
you
--
9
MS.
FRANZETTI:
What’s
included
in
the
10
question?
11
MR.
ETTINGER:
Everything
she
said.
12
MS.
FRANZETTI:
I
got
to
shut
up.
13
MR. SEEGERT:
We generally
do
not
14
use
——
I
guess
the
word
is ——
rely
on
the IWB.
15
Because
in its
original
form,
it
did
give
too
much
16
credit
for
highly
tolerant
fish.
So
we
generally
17
don’t
use
that.
18
We
use
the IWB
mod,
which
consists
19
of taking
——
I think
it’s 13
species
of highly
20
tolerant
fish --
and excluding
them
for
most
of the
21
IWB calculations.
So
that’s
what
the modification
22
is.
It
just takes
out
highly
tolerant
fish.
23
So
we
use
that
regularly
on
the
24
Ohio
River
and
a
number
of
other
places.
We
think
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Page
36
1
segments.
2
MR.
ETTINGER:
What exhibit
are we
up
3
to
now?
4
MS.
TIPSORD:
367.
5
MR.
ETTINGER:
I’ll
show
you
--
6
MS.
TIPSORD:
Because
Susan
hasn’t
7
been
keeping
up
with
Fred.
8
MS. FRANZETTI:
I’m
a
slacker.
9
MR.
ETTINGER:
367.
10
MS.
TIPSORD:
No,
this
will
be 368.
11
MR.
ETTINGER:
Oh,
368.
I’m
sorry.
12
MS. TIPSORD:
I’ve been
handed
EA
13
Project
61393.26,
Development
of Biologically
Based
14
Thermal
Limits
for
the
Lower
Des
Plaines
River,
15
prepared
for Midwest
Generation,
Chicago,
Illinois,
16
Prepared
by
EA
Engineering
Science
and
Technology.
17
August
2007
is
the date.
18
MS. FRANZETTI:
And
Counsel,
I’ll
note
19
right
off
the
bat,
I
will
object
to
any questioning
20
that
deals
with
thermal
standards
or
limits
at this
21
time.
22
MR. ETTINGER:
I couldn’t
agree
more.
23
In
fact,
I don’t
like documents
about
that
nearly
as
24
much as
I like
other
parts
of
the
document.
Page
37
1
MS.
TIPSORD:
Well, let me
finish.
If
2
there’s no objection,
we will
admit
this
as
3
Exhibit
368.
4
MS. FRANZETTI:
No
objection
to
its
5
admittance,
just
an
objection
as to
the
scope
of
the
6
questioning
at this time.
7
MS.
TIPSORD:
And I will
entertain
8
those if they
should
arise. With
that, I’ll
mark
it
9
as
Exhibit
368.
10
MR. ETTINGER:
Okay.
I’d like
now
to
11
look
at
-— I
guess
it is
Figure 1 --
which
12
is ——
it’s
after
Page
16 ——
and
ask
you
——
well,
13
first
of all,
did EA
do
this?
14
MR. SEEGERT:
Yes.
15
MR.
ETTINGER:
Who specifically
did
16
that work
for
EA?
17
MR. SEEGERT:
I
believe
this was
18
mainly
a
combination
of
myself
and Mr. Vondruska.
19
MR.
ETTINGER:
Okay.
Now,
these
-- if
20
we
just
look at the
upstream 1-55
bridge
numbers
21
here,
does the
-- I’m not
quite sure
how
to
read
22
these.
These aren’t
river
miles?
Or what
are
the
23
units
at
the bottom
here
from 402
to
408?
24
MR.
SEEGERT:
Those
are
location
Page
38
1
numbers
that
he established.
2
MR.
ETTINGER:
And
how do
they
3
correspond
to river
miles?
Is
there
some
way
to
4
determine
that?
5
MR.
SEEGERT:
There’s
no
direct
6
correlation,
no.
7
MR.
ETTINGER:
Does
it
correlate
to
8
something
that
goes
on
with
your
QHEI data
9
collection?
10
MR. VONDRUSKA:
Well,
the
sampling
11
location
is
listed
at
the
bottom.
We
have --
for
12
every
annual
report,
we
have
a
list
of sampling
13
locations
which
provide
the river
miles
and
how the
14
location
was
sampled.
15
MR.
ETTINGER:
All right.
So we’d
16
have
to figure
that
out.
We’ve
got
some
other
17
document
that
shows
the
sampling
locations.
Perhaps
18
they’re
in
the record,
perhaps
not.
19
MS.
FRANZETTI:
I don’t
know that
we
20
have
it in this
proceeding
that
would exist
within
21
EA’s
records.
22
MR.
VONDRUSKA:
Well,
sure.
Part
of
23
AS
96—10,
the sample
location
designations
are
the
24
same.
Page 39
1
MR. ETTINGER:
Would it help
-- but
I
2
am reading
this probably, that this 402 number is
3
the most upstream sampling
location, and the 408 is
4
the most
downstream sampling location within that
5
Pool?
6
MR. VONDRUSKA:
Within upstream 1-55
7
segments?
8
MR. ETTINGER:
Yes.
9
MR. VONDRUSKA:
Correct.
10
MR.
ETTINGER:
Okay.
And
to
figure
11
out
exactly
where that was, we’d have
to go
in
and
12
look
at
your sampling location information --
13
MR.
VONDRUSKA:
Yes.
14
MR. ETTINGER:
-- so
we can find
that?
15
MR. VONDRUSKA:
Yes.
16
MR.
ETTINGER: And
you
believe it’s
17
from
a document that’s already in the record?
18
MS. FRANZETTI:
No, no.
Actually,
I
19
think not.
20
MR.
ETTINGER:
Okay.
21
MS. WILLIAMS:
What
about
one of
the
22
attachments
—- I want
to say
maybe M.
23
MS. FRANZETTI:
I think this
goes --
24
MS. WILLIAMS:
MM would be one of EA’s
Page 40
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
annual
reports of
Midwest Generation’s
annual
reports.
Would
it
be
contained
within
—-
MR.
VONDRUSKA:
I don’t have
my
glasses
today.
I’m sorry.
MS.
TIPSORD:
Yeah.
Attachment
MM
to
the
proposal
is 2004 Lower
Des
Plaines River
Fisheries
Investigation,
River
Mile
274.4 through
285.5
EA Engineering,
et
cetera.
And
you
had mentioned
before
they’re
in
the annual
report,
so
we
can
look
at
that
document
and
correlate where
these
are located.
MR. VONDRUSKA:
Yes.
MR.
ETTINGER:
Do any of
our --
are
any
of
your
sample
locations in
the
discharge
canal
from
the
Joliet
plant?
MR.
VONDRUSKA:
Yes,
location
403.
MR.
ETTINGER:
403 is
actually
inside
the discharge
canal,
or --
MR. VONDRUSKA:
Yes.
MR.
ETTINGER:
Okay.
MR.
VONDRUSKA:
Actually,
specifically
there’s 250
meters
within
the Joliet 9
discharge
canal,
and 250
meters within
the Joliet
29
discharge
canal until
you have
about
a
500-meter
zone.
Page
41
1
MR.
ETTINGER:
Do
you
measure
at
the
2
end
of
the
canal
or
top
of
the
canal?
3
MR.
VONDRUSKA:
Measure
what?
4
MR.
ETTINGER:
Whatever
you’re
5
measuring.
Is
your
location
at
the
end
of
the
canal
6
or up
at
the
discharge
point?
7
MR.
VONDRUSKA:
It
starts
at
the
8
upstream
end.
For
example,
the
location,
9
specifically
Joliet
Station
29,
Units
7
and
8
10
discharge
canal,
we
start
upstream in
it,
and we
end
11
above
the
discharge
for
the
cooling
towers.
12
Joliet
9
—- okay.
13
MR.
ETTINGER:
Okay.
I’m
--
14
MR.
VONDRUSKA:
You
were
asking
where
15
we
sample
this.
16
MR.
ETTINGER:
Yeah.
I’m
just
trying
17
to
figure
out
where
the
samplers
is
in
relation
to
18
the
actual
discharge
point.
19
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Well,
what
are
you
20
defining
as
the
actual
discharge
point?
21
MR.
ETTINGER:
The
place
where
the
22
water
comes
out.
23
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Where
it
meets
the
24
river?
Page
42
1
MR. ETTINGER:
Yes.
2
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Where
the
end
of
the
3
canal
meets
the
river?
4
MR.
ETTINGER:
That’s
what I’m
asking.
5
Are
you
measuring
it
where
the
end of
the
canal
6
meets
the
river,
or at
some
other site?
7
MR.
VONDRUSKA:
Well,
I guess
I’m
a
8
little
bit
confused.
9
MS.
TIPSORD:
I am,
too,
because
your
10
question
was
do you
measure
in the
canal.
Now
11
you’ve
changed
the
question.
12
MR.
ETTINGER:
Well,
maybe
I have.
13
Just
where
do you
measure
with
regard
-- is
this
at
14
the
hottest
point
or
at
the
cooler?
Where
is
it
15
gotten?
16
MR. VONDRUSKA:
What
am
I
measuring
17
here?
18
MR.
ETTINGER:
Yeah,
exactly.
19
MR.
VONDRUSKA:
Specify
that.
20
MS. TIPSORD:
Let me
try it,
Albert.
21
You
just
identified
403
on
Exhibit
368
at
whatever
22
page
that
number
is
--
23
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Figure
1.
24
MS. TIPSORD:
—-
Figure
1
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—
Page
44
1
for electrofishing,
and
those
get combined
into
a
2
500-meter sample.
3
MR.
ETTINGER:
So
am I
to
understand
4
then that
the
—- there’s
enough
of
a fish community
5
that’s
actually
in
the
discharge
canal that
it
6
scores
a 5.5 here?
7
MR.
VONDRUSKA:
I
can’t tell
what
it
8
scored,
but
yes,
there is
enough in
the fish
community.
10
MR.
SEEGERT:
About
that,
yes.
11
MR.
ETTINGER:
Okay.
And
then
what’s
12
403A?
13
MR.
VONDRUSKA:
403A
represents
a
14
sample
downstream
of
the
discharge
canal.
15
MR.
ETTINGER:
I’d like
to turn
16
above
-- we’re
going
to be very careful
as to
the
17
portions we
read here
to avoid
the
objections.
18
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Thank
you.
19
MR.
ETTINGER:
On Page 7,
it
states,
20
“Below
65
Farenheit
and
above 85
Farenheit
--
21
MR.
SEEGERT:
I’m
sorry.
Where
are
22
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Albert,
I’m
sorry.
23
But
there’s
a
lot
of Page
7. Can
you get
us to —-
24
MR.
ETTINGER:
Well,
the
last
full
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Page
47
1
he
said, which
is
in
this
case,
because
you’re
2
making
multiple
sequential
comparisons,
that
you
3
want
to use
work
at
a .01 level.
And
so
that’s what
4
we did.
When
you get down
to 90,
then it
goes
5
below .01.
6
MR.
ETTINGER:
Well,
we’re all
7
fortunate
that
that
statistician
is not
here
today,
8
so I
won’t
be
able
to
ask him any
questions,
and
9
I’ll
just
have
to
go on. Thank
you.
10
MR.
ANDES:
How long
are we going
on
11
for?
12
MR.
ETTINGER:
Oh, I
don’t know.
Half
13
an hour
maybe.
You can leave.
14
MR. ANDES:
No,
I
can’t.
15
MR.
OTTO:
Are
you
going
to
use
any
of
16
your pre—filed
questions?
17
MR.
ETTINGER:
I will eventually.
18
I’ve
used
a lot of them.
19
I’d
like
to
look
at —— these are
20
very
pretty.
21
MR.
SEEGERT:
I agree.
I like
them.
22
MS.
FRANZETTI:
For
the
record?
23
MS.
TIPSORD:
For the
record?
24
MR.
ETTINGER:
For
the record
-- well,
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Page
51
1
scores.
2
MR.
ETTINGER:
Yes.
Figure
F—2
is
the
3
narrative
habitat
classification
based
on
MBI
4
modified
QEIEI
scores.
5
MR.
SEEGERT:
Correct.
So
those
are
6
the
scores
based
on
what
Mr. Yoder
testified
to
7
were
-- was
the
more appropriate,
because
they
took
8
into account
the impounding
of
the
river.
So
I
9
would
take
this
to
be
the
more
accurate
10
representation.
11
MR.
ETTINGER:
Okay.
Now, where
does
12
the
impounding
stop
in this
chart?
13
MR.
SEEGERT:
At -- basically
where
14
the
green
ends.
15
MR.
ETTINGER:
Okay.
So
we
don’t
have
16
to
make
an
—- we
don’t have
to
make an
adjustment
to
17
that
portion
of
the pool
under
the
modified
--
18
MR.
SEEGERT:
It’s
good
under
both
19
cases,
because
it’s
not modified.
So
the
adjustment
20
for
modification
doesn’t
come into
play
at
all.
21
MR.
ETTINGER:
So
there’s
no
--
22
MR.
SEEGERT:
I’m
sorry.
Well,
I’m
23
talking
about
modified
as referred
to --
MBI
24
modified
their
technique
based
on impoundment
or
\)
M
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Page
57
1
sandwiched
in between
the
Clean
Air
Act rules
on
2
January
13th
and 14th,
at
which
time we
will
talk
to
3
Dr.
Burton.
If
we can
get
done on
the
13th,
4
wonderful.
If not,
I
will
do
a
hearing
officer
5
order
that
resets
the
room and
reiterates that it’s
6
Dr.
Burton.
7
Thank
you
again
tore your
8
patients,
your
time,
and
everybody
have
a
safe
trip
9
home.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Page
58
1
STATE
OF
ILLINOIS
SS
2
COUNTY
OF
COOK
3
4
5
REBECCA
A.
GRAZIANO,
being
first
6
duly
sworn
on oath
says
that
she
is
a
court
reporter
7
doing
business
in
the
City
of Chicago;
that
she
8
reported
in
shorthand
the
proceedings
given
at
the
9
taking
of
said
hearing
and
that
the
foregoing
is
a
10
true
and
correct
transcript
of
her
shorthand
notes
11
so
taken
as
aforesaid
and
contains
all
the
12
proceedings
given
at
said
hearing.
13
14
15
REBECCA
A.
GR(’NO,
CSR
16
29
South
LaSalle
Street,
Suite
850
Chicago,
Illinois
60603
17
License
No.
:
084—004659
18
19
SUBSCRIBED AND
SWORN
TO
before
me
this
/9*day
20
of
,
A.D.,
2009.
NOVEMBER
30,
2011
23
24
Page
59
A
55:6
algal23:10
anything
15:13
7:10,15
able4:21
add28:630:8
Alisa2:4
11:2,10,10
assume5:19
8:15
6:20
27:16
additive
Affiance
28:6
29:21
assuming
Barghusen
29:16
47:8
30:16
21:20
49:1
35:2
55:21
49:13 53:12
adjusted
allow
5:5
anywhere
assumption
based 6:24
abnormalit...
54:17
almost50:3
5:12
54:13
35:23 36:13
25:11,12,22
adjustment
Along
29:23
Appeared
Attachment
49:20 51:3
25:23
26:21
51:16,19
already
2:15,20
22:16,17
51:6,24
26:24
Adml:6
39:17
appears
31:3,3
52:1,16
about 3:16
admit
3:5
always
11:5
45:16
35:18
40:5
basically
9:1011:9
37:2
11:1929:10
applied
48:8,10
11:2416:11
13:15
14:11
admittance
29:14
17:16,17
56:10
27:21
29:2
15:8
20:9
37:5
AMENDM...
applies
26:8
attachments
29:18,21
26:9,21
adverse
1:5
approach8:1
39:22
45:8
46:14
27:21 30:2
22:12
ammonia
appropriate
attack
30:6
48:21
50:21
30:23 31:23
adversely
30:10
8:8
17:20
attain49:9
51:13
31:24
36:23
3:18
among23:5
33:851:7
attainment
bass3:24
39:2140:24
affect3:18
amount9:17
aquatic4:17
7:58:9
bat36:19
44:10 45:11
5:8,13
amplify
4:18,20,23
12:22
bed23:2
46:349:3
53:18
54:4
27:16
5:9,14,17
attracted
beforel:9,10
50:5,16
aforesaid
analysis
6:1,2,6
10:9
53:7
9:4
11:9
51:2352:11
58:11
35:11,12
11:21,22
attracting
31:1232:12
above6:10
after32:13
Anand2:4
22:1334:5
53:4
40:958:19
6:16 32:6
32:21
37:12
anchor 28:1
48:24,24
audience
begins 45:4
41:1144:16
again6:17,23
28:3
aquatics6:3
55:9
behalf
2:15
44:20
45:15
7:4 9:22
ANDES
area 1:4
August36:17
2:20
49:152:7
20:823:24
47:10,14
12:2127:21
availability
being3:15
above-entit...
24:2
35:2
Andrea
2:6
49:3,5,12
56:24
43:1,12
1:9
43:2346:17
annual38:12
49:14,24
available
46:1952:1
absent4:12
56:14
57:7
40:1,1,10
52:1,2,9,10
35:3
54:12
58:5
absolute
agencies
anomalies
52:12
avoid
44:17
believe
3:7
31:21
11:11
26:9,10
areas28:1
aware6:9,19
8:714:8
abundant
Agency2:8
28:4
55:17,22
8:2321:12
28:1937:17
23:11
33:9
anomaly28:3
arena9:17
21:19,24
39:1648:9
according
agos:4 8:20
28:5,12
arise37:8
away29:1,3
53:20
55:22
32:3
agree
8:14
another
around
8:5
A.D
1:14
believes
9:20
account5l:8
36:22
47:21
26:11 28:18
11:16
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Page
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everything
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41:2342:2
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Page
63
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