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ILLINOIS

POLLUTION

CONTROL

BOARD

THE MATTER

OF:

WATER

QUALITY

STANDARDS

AND

)

R08-09

EFFLUENT

LIMITATIONS

FOR

THE

)

(Rulemaking

CHICAGO

AREA

WATERWAY

SYSTEM

)

Water)

AND

THE LOWER

DES

PLAINES

)

RIVER:

PROPOSED

AMENDMENTS

)

CLEFk8cWFICE

Ill. Adm.

Code

Parts

)

NUV

232009

301,

302,

303 and

304

STATE

ILLINOIS

REPORT

PROCEEDINGS

he]tr0iB0

above—entitled

cause

before

Hearing

Officer

Marie

Tipsord,

called

the

Illinois

Pollution

Control

Board,

taken

before

Laura

Mukahirn,

CSR,

notary

public

within

and for

the

County

Cook and

State

Illinois,

160

North

LaSalle

Street,

Room

N—502,

Chicago,

Illinois,

the 10th

day

November,

2009,

commencing

the hour

of 9:00

a.m.

Page 2

APPEARANCES

MS. MARIE TIPSORD,

Hearing Officer

MR. TANNER GIRARD,

Chairman

MR. ANAND RAO, Member

MS.

ALISA LIU, Member

MS.

ANDREA MOORE, Member

DR.

SHUNDAR LIN, Member

Appearing on behalf of the Illinois

Pollution Control Board

ILLINOIS

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

1021 North

Grand Avenue East

P.O. Box 19276

Springfield,

Illinois 62794—9276

(217) 782—5544

BY:

MS. DEBORAH WILLIAMS

MS. STEPHANIE DIERS

MR. ROBERT SULSKI

MR. SCOTT TWAIT

MR. HOWARD ESSIG

MR. ROY SMOGOR

FRANZETTI

LAW FIRM

10 South

LaSalle Street

Suite

3600

Chicago,

Illinois 60603

(312) 251—5590

BY: MS. SUSAN FRANZETTI

Appearing on behalf of

Midwest Generation

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Page

will

remind

Mr. Seegert

has been

sworn

and

you’re

still

under

oath.

And we

will

begin

again with

the

IEPA.

believe

we’re

Question

73.

MS. F’RANZETTI:

I might

interrupt.

I’m

sorry.

Mr.

Seegert

would

to correct

a misstatement

made yesterday

with

respect

one of

his answers,

and this

has

with

the San

Antonio

River

restoration

project.

MR.

SEEGERT:

Correct.

In response

question

from

Mr.

Ettinger,

I referred

project

Texas

which

led

a little

discussion

about

the Colorado

River really

in Texas.

that

got

me thinking. I

knew

was,

but

went

back and

looked

maps

last

night

and yes,

indeed,

the

Colorado

River is

in Texas,

but

flows through

Austin,

not

San

Antonio.

And

the

river

that

I’m referring

to was

the San

Antonio

river,

and

then

my recollection

of the

dollar

amount

was 240

million.

believe

that’s

what

said.

And

the

actual

amount

for

says

eight miles

of river

south

downtown

Page

San Antonio is

$272

million.

So I apologize

for the error.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Thank

you.

Are

you

aware of the riffle

restoration project that

is on the

Colorado River in Texas?

MR. SEEGERT:

No, I’m

not.

HEARING

OFFICER TIPSORD:

Miss Diers?

MS.

DIER5: We left off

73.

And

I’m going

strike that question

and go

74.

Examination

By Ms. Diers

Explain why the

habitat limitations

you

referred

to on Page 12 of your testimony are

permanent and irreversible?

Well, the limitations

that I cite, in

particular lack of riffles in

fast waters, are

result

the

damming of the river, and these

limitations are going

continue unless

the dams

are removed. Siltation is also

primarily

result

of dams and

urbanization, neither of which are

reversible.

And I would

add

that there was some

discussion yesterday

about

couldn’t

you put in

riffle,

and I believe my

answer was something

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Page

Lockport

Pool?

Our

studies

have been

the Lockport,

Brandon,

and

Dresden

Pools

except

for

three

sampling

locations

the

south branch

the

Chicago

River,

and

those

are

done

near

Midwest

Generation

Fisk

station.

And in

response

your

inquiry

about

how

many

the

collections

were

made

Lockport

Pool,

during

the

period

1993 through

2005,

we made

557

collections

in Lockport

Pool.

Ninety—four:

Page

your

prefiled

——

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Ninety-four?

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

You’re

skipping

89 through

93?

MS.

DIERS:

I’m

sorry.

Let

me hang

second.

I missed

a page.

MS.

DIERS:

I’ll go

back.

Sorry.

Question

90:

Page

19 of

your prefiled

testimony

you

state,

the

fish

communities

in the

Upper

Dresden

Pool and

the

five

mile

stretch

Dresden

Pool

downstream

of the

Kankakee

River

and downstream

the

Dresden

Lock

and

Dam

were

relatively

similar

each

other and

noticeably

better

than

those

upstream

Brandon

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but

because of how the permit is written,

their

temperature limit is

based

on like BTU

loadings.

they don’t actually have an

instream temperature

limit. And

the fish

community

in the tributary into which they

discharge is very warm, and

there is

effect going

on. But apparently, and I don’t

understand

all the legal parts of this,

but

because of how the permit is written, they

are in compliance.

even

though there

appears

to be an effect going on - well,

there

is an effect in part of the receiving

water

body,

they’re not in

violation of the

permit,

and perhaps during the next permit

cycle that will

get

changed. But

that

would

one example.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Do you know what plant

that is

and where it is?

MR. SEEGERT:

That is the Stuart

plant, and all I can remember

is it’s

upstream

of Cincinnati on the Ohio.

MR. ETTINGER:

Thank

you.

BY MS.

DIERS:

Question 91: Page 19 of

your prefiled

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clarification

really

quick?

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Keep

limited,

Miss Williams.

MS. WILLIAMS:

just

want

understand.

You

said

that temperature

data

are

included

those

reports.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Yes, he

did.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

Where

are

the

sampling

points

that

the

temperature

data

from?

MR. SEEGERT:

What?

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Counsel,

I’m

not

following

your question.

Do you

understand

the

question?

MR.

SEEGERT:

No.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Can

you

try

rephrase?

MS.

WILLIAMS:

Is temperature

data

taken

only

the

1-55

bridge

those

reports

or is

throughout

the

sites?

MR.

SEEGERT:

No.

Well,

Mr. Vondruska

can

address

that

better.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Thank

you.

MR. VONDRUSKA:

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MR.

ETTINGER:

Where

would

you

put

channel

catfish?

MR. SEEGERT:

Channel catfish tend

in the

—- near the tolerant end.

So if

you

think

continuum

from intolerant

tolerant, I would

not call them highly

tolerant.

I would call them moderately

tolerant.

MR. ETTINGER:

Thank

you.

CHAIRMAN

GIRARD:

Could I ask

follow—up

on that, Mr. Seegert.

You gave

the

general

characteristics

you

look for

identify

a poor site. What are the

characteristics

you

would

use to identify

the

best sites?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Well, okay.

you mean

in terms

of habitat or the fish

community?

CHAIRMAN GIRARD:

Well, give me

both.

MR. SEEGERT:

Okay.

Well, in

terms of

habitat, we’ve

heard testimony from

several

people

talking

about

the

60 cut—off

on the

QHEI.

That means it’s

good.

It doesn’t

mean

it’s

excellent.

I believe Ohio

uses

either

70 or 75

cut-off.

you’re

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scores

exceeded

50.

CHAIRMAN GIRARD:

Thank

you.

BY MS.

DIERS:

Mr.

Seegert,

you

mentioned

IBI in

answering

some

of these

questions.

Were

the IBI

scores included

your report summarized

Attachment

HEARING

OFFICER TIPSORD:

Attachment

his testimony?

MS.

DIERS:

Yes.

HEARING OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Which

Exhibit

366.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Counsel,

I’m sorry.

Is this one

of your prefiled

questions

or -—

MS. DIERS:

It’s not.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

What’s the question

again?

What are

we --

MS.

DIERS:

He’s

been talking

about

IBI.

And I

wanted

to know

were IBI scores

included

his report

summarized in

Attachment

MR.

SEEGERT:

No.

MS. DIERS:

Is that

something that

could

provided

to us?

Page

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Can

you

give

just

second?

Because

I’m

not

sure

which

IBI

scores

we’re

talking

about.

MS.

DIERS:

Sure.

MS. FRANZETTI:

Counsel,

why

don’t

let

Mr. Vondruska

explain

what

the IBI

issue

is in the

absence

scoring

on IBI.

think

that’s

what

you’re

asking

for,

but

if not,

then

you

can

up.

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

part

of the

long-term

monitoring

the

EA has

conducted

for

Midwest

Generation,

have

not calculated

IBI scores

because

there’s

not

appropriate

IBI

for

that

system.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Explain

that further

what

you mean

there

isn’t

appropriate

IBI for

that

system.

The

IBI

system

that

exists

is for

what

type

waters?

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

For

wadable

streams.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

And

this

not,

not

a wadable

stream?

MR. VONDRUSKA:

That

is correct.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Maybe

I missed

something.

felt

were

talking

earlier

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Page

decided

that

they

would

apply

their

Ohio

version,

their boatable

IBI

this

area.

And I

say

that’s

acceptable

thing

to do.

It’s

not

target

as you

would

IBI

——

you’d

have

IBI

that

someone

Mr.

Smogor

would

have developed

using

Illinois

specific

data

set.

But

that

doesn’t

exist.

MBI

said,

hey,

we’ll

use

a surrogate,

we’ll

use

our Ohio

version

for

this

system.

And when

they used

when

they

did that,

they

got

scores

mainly

the

20s.

MS. FRANZETTI:

And

it’s

those

scores

that

you

were

referring

your

testimony

in the

report?

MR. SEEGERT:

Yes.

CHAIRMAN

GIRARD:

Can

ask

question?

How

long

did it

take

Ohio

develop

their

IBI

for larger

streams?

MR.

SEEGERT:

I can’t

give

you

exact

number

years,

but it

was

on the

order of

ten

years.

They’re

collecting

data,

they

started

in the

early

‘80s,

because

I was

still

——

was working

Ohio

that

Page

time.

I worked

Ohio from 1979

when I

joined

EA in early

1982. And

they

were in

their

data

collection

phase

that point in

time.

And then

wasnt

until sometime

the mid

late

‘80s

that they came

out

with

their

first iterations

of their IBI

and then

they refined

the

various ones

since.

But

they

had

about

a ten—year

period of

data

collection

before they

were

able

assimilate all

that

data

and develop

IBIs

not

just

for

boat sites,

but

also

for

wadable

sites.

HEARING OFFICER

TIPSORD:

And,

just

for the record,

MBI is

the name of

the

consulting

firm

that --

MR.

SEEGERT:

Midwest Biological

Institute.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Right.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Finish

your question

for

the record.

Because

I think

that

there

may

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

It’s not for

the

record. It’s

just a

statement that

they

were

the consultants

who

worked

on --

Page

MS.

WILLIAMS:

No.

That’s

what --

they were

-—

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Okay.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

I don’t

understand.

Well,

let’s

ask

our

next follow-up

and

may--

BY MS.

DIERS:

Did the

Lower

Des

Plaines

biological

subcommittee

decide

use

the Ohio EPA’s

boatable

method? This

just a

follow-up

to what

we’ve

been

talking

about.

was it

the subcommittee

that

decided

use

the

Ohio EPA’s

beatable

method?

No.

And

you’re

saying

MBI decided,

just

be clear?

Yes.

HEARING OFFICER

TIPSORD:

We’re

still

not

-—

you

need

relay back, for

the

record,

because

we are 35

days into

hearings

and

it’s

been

long time

since

we’ve

talked

about

MBI.

What

is MBI’s

relation and

why

important

that they

used

—- relationship

to this

rulemaking,

and why

did

they

-- why

important

-- Why

did

you

use

their IBI

Page 40

scores?

MR. SEEGERT:

MBI

was

consultant who

believe

was

hired

Illinois

EPA --

no.

Were

they

hired

U.S. EPA?

AUDIENCE

MEMBER:

U.S.

EPA.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Someone

hired them.

MR.

SEEGERT:

thought

in the

statement of

reasons

it said our

consultant.

misremembering?

MS.

WILLIAMS:

I’ll

clarify

for the

record,

MBI, that

organization,

was

hired

the

Illinois

EPA

testify on

the

temperature

report

that

Mr. Yoder

provided.

That

was

their role

in this proceeding.

HEARING

OFFICER TIPSORD:

And MBI did

lot of

—— we have

their

IBI

scores in

the

record.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

They were

out there

collecting

data

just

everyone

else

has

been

out

there collecting

data,

and their

data

has

been

used. I

believe

U.S.

EPA

hired

them

to collect

some

data

and

HEARING

OFFICER TIPSORD:

That’s

fine.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

used

MBI’s

data.

Page

don’t

understand

the

significance.

don’t

want

imply

here that

somehow

they

were

hired

by the Agency

for any

-- to

collect

data.

MR.

ETTINGER:

you pointed

out,

big

record.

Does

anybody know

where

this

data

is in

the record?

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Actually,

was

just looking.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

When

you say

this

data,

Albert,

MBI ——

MR.

ETTINGER:

The MBI

we have

too

many

initials.

HEARING OFFICER

TIPSORD:

All right.

Can I

—- MBI qualitative

habitat

evaluation

index field

sheets

are Exhibit

7. MBI

fish

data

sheets are

Exhibit 20,

and

that’s

just

quick

search through.

That’s

why I was

trying

get

on the

record

what was

the

basis for

the

use

of the IBI scores

from

MBI.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

There

is also

—-

there’s

an MBI that

what Mr.

Seegert has

times

referred

to as the

Rankin report,

that

also

part of the

record.

And —-

Page

MR.

SEEGERT:

He works

for MBI.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Mr.

Rankin worked

for

MBI.

So the references

Mr. Rankin’s

work

with

regard

his

QHEI

scoring of

the Upper

Dresden

Island

Pool

is also

part of the

record,

but

I don’t know

that I can

spot

the

exhibit

number. It

actually

may have been

attached.

MS. WILLIAMS:

It’s an

attachment.

HEARING

OFFICER TIPSORD:

think

it’s

Attachment

MS.

FRANZETTI:

To the statement

reasons.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Yes.

MS.

FNZETTI:

That’s

what I thought.

So those

are

just

some

the

spots,

Mr.

Ettinger, that

contain

MBI

data.

There

may

more.

HEARING

OFFICER TIPSORD:

Thank

you.

think we’ve

established

what

I needed for

the

record. Thank

you.

BY MS.

DIERS:

Mr.

Seegert,

I had asked

you

just a

few minutes

ago about

who made

the decision

to use

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MS.

FRANZETTI:

Counsel,

one

thing

that

we’d

add

the

record

right

now,

and

I’m

going

let

Mr. Vondruska

that

relates

this

little

bit.

Joe,

would

you

explain

what

Table

and

what

it’s

meant

be.

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

Attachment

MR.

SEEGERT:

Attachment

testimony.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Which

Exhibit

366.

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

Thank

you.

Page

10,

first

paragraph,

end

the

first

sentence

refers

Table

That

Table

was not

included

with

this,

and

have

brought

copies.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

that

was

omission on

our

part.

The

report

refers

Table

Everybody

really

read

closely,

nobody

asked

was

missing

Table

But

we’re

going

supply

now,

and

think

should

probably

marked

exhibit.

MS.

DIERS:

You

caught

us.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

there’s

Page

objections,

will

mark Table 1,

Species

Composition

Number

and

Relative

Abundance

Fish

Collected

Electrofishing

and Seining

from

Upper

Dresden

Pool in

the five

mile

stretch 1993

1995

and

1997

2005

Exhibit

367.

Seeing none,

it’s

Exhibit 367.

was going

to ask

about

that.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

far we

only have

two

new

pieces of

paper.

MS.

DIERS:

I’m done

with

94.

I’m going

to 95. Would

reduction

of pollutant

loads,

reductions

sedimentation,

and

even moderate

enhancement

habitat

features result

in some

recovery

of fish

assemblage in

the Upper

Dresden

Pool?

And I’m

just going

to stop

right there.

Well,

I think the

question

too

broad

to allow

answer

it definitively.

First

of all,

what pollutant

loads

and

to what

extent of

pollution

reduction

are

you

referring

to?

And

then

kind

following

up on what

extent the

sediment

reduction

are

you

talking

about and

where?

Where is

the

sediment

going

to be reduced

from?

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Page 52

would

go from

cover

for

macrophytes

extensive.

That

wouldn’t

happen

on average.

Generally

there’d

some intermediate

value.

And if

you

had a

site,

and

we’ve

seen

many

those

sites,

where there’s

essentially

macrophytes

even

in the

summer,

that

score

wouldn’t

change

all.

the

range

change

would

from

about

zero

to six

points,

but

that’s

why

use

the

word

typically

would

change

three

points

less.

MS. DIERS:

Question

98.

I’m

going

move

further

down

because

it has

to do

with

Exhibit

which

is where

we’re

going

next.

I’ll

ask 99

before

move on

Exhibit

With

respect

the

QHEI

scores,

seems

that you

have

Des

Plaines

283.OLB

Under

Substrates,

Quality,

(-2+1)/2=-O.5

and not

-1

repeated

twice.

Therefore,

shouldn’t

the

QHEI,

shouldn’t

the

QHEI be

50.5

and not

49.5?

You’re

correct.

The

QHEI

score

for

this

location

should

50.5,

not 49.5.

Okay.

Strike

100,

strike

101 ——

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

You’ve

Page

already

asked

those.

So you

don’t

want

strike

them.

You’ve

already

asked

them.

MS.

DIERS:

Whatever

works.

102

MS. FRANZETTI:

Counsel,

actually

can

interrupt

and

just

ask

follow-up

question

since

we’re

on QHEI

scores.

This

might

the

place

it.

Mr.

Seegert,

think

you

reviewed

Exhibit

37 which

was

the

It’s

CD titled

Yoder

CD.

Included

that were

what

Mr.

Yoder

submitted

the

Agency

corrected

QHEI

scores

for

UAA

segments,

correct?

MR.

SEEGERT:

That’s

correct.

MS. F’RANZETTI:

And

those

were

corrections

made

as a

result

issues

that

were

identified

with

theirs

and

the

QHEI

scores

done

Mr.

Yoder’s

organization

during

testimony

this proceeding,

correct?

MR.

SEEGERT:

That’s

correct.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Now,

have

you reviewed

the

QHEI

—- corrected

QHEI

scores

that

were

contained

Exhibit

37?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Yes.

I think

you

mean

Page

the corrected

corrected.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Why

do you

say

corrected corrected?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Because we’re

in our

third

iteration. The

QHEI scores were

originally

submitted

part of, I

believe it

was, Attachment

S to

the statement

reasons.

And then when

Mr. Yoder testified,

he testified

to the fact that they had

inadvertently

forgot

include

impoundment.

the

scores on Attachment

are wrong,

and

to correct those

scores he provided

Exhibit 5

which was

a table of QHEI scores for

each of

the

locations they sampled.

During the

questioning of Mr. Yoder,

we brought

a number

of, I’ll call

them, mostly math errors

to his

attention.

He acknowledged

a number of those

and

said I’ll

back

and correct those.

And

then the result of

that was

I’ll call

it,

updated version of Exhibit

and

that’s

what’s

on Exhibit 37.

I took ——

MS. FRANZETTI:

What

have

you

found

with

regard

the

corrected corrected

QHEI

scores scoring

sheets that are included

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Page

the same

calculations,

came

with

the

same

numbers.

this

case

if you

add

six

minus

one

and one,

you

get

six.

They

did the

same

calculation

and

got

five.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Okay.

it’s

basically

comparison

with

their

sheets

and--

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

You

need

speak

up.

MR. ETTINGER:

It’s

math

problem?

MR.

SEEGERT:

It’s

math

problem.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

With that,

let’s

take

ten—minute

break.

(Short

break

taken.)

MS.

DIERS:

Did

we leave

off

starting

with

Exhibit

right?

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Yes,

did.

MS.

DIERS:

I’ve

asked

100,

101.

I’m

going

strike

102,

103, 104,

105,

and

go to

106,

and

just

ask

the

last

half

of that

question

on Page

4 of

Exhibit

MS.

FRANZETTI:

are

skipping

102

through

105.

MS. DIERS:

Going

106.

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didn’t

do a use

attainability

assessment.

I’m

going

strike

Question

107,

108,

109,

110,

and 111.

I’m

going

go to

Question

112.

a water

body,

if impoundment

the main

factor

that is preventing

aquatic

life from

reaching

more natural

condition,

is removing

greatly

modifying

the impoundment

structure

the

only

way that

aquatic life

can attain

a more natural

condition?

Well,

although certain

modifications

may result

some improvement

conditions for

some

members

of the

aquatic community,

the

aquatic

community

will

not

improve

appreciably

until all

the

limiting

factors that

are preventing

attainment

aquatic

life

goals are

removed.

I’m

going

strike

113, 114.

And

I’ll

ask 115. We

might

have touched

on this

earlier,

so if I did,

I apologize

for asking

again.

But in

the context

of attainability

clean

water contact

goals

on Page 5

of Exhibit 2,

second

full

paragraph

of your

prefiled

testimony you

mentioned

the potential

for

instream habitat

improvements

that could

improve the

biological

potential

of the Upper

Dresden

Island Pool.

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discharge

point,

and

so all

of those

things

are

still

going

continue.

think,

yes,

TARP

overall

will

have

-—

will

result

in some

reduction

loading,

but

I don’t

know

what that

level

reduction

going

to be

whether

it’s

going

significant

enough

reduce

sediment

a level

where

it would

longer

problem.

MR.

ETTINGER:

your

understanding that

construction is

nonsubject

NPDS?

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

I didn’t

get

all

that.

MR.

ETTINGER:

I’m sorry.

it your

understanding

that urban

construction

runoff

not subject

to NPDS

requirements?

MR. SEEGERT:

That’s

understanding,

yes.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Thank

you.

MS. DIERS:

I’m going

strike

126,

go to

127.

Page

Exhibit

2, the

top

your

prefiled

testimony,

you state

that

the

presence

barges

located

near

the

stream

bank

has

adverse

effects

fishes.

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Page 72

cycle

lake?

The answer

that is

no.

So, for

example, here

in Lake Michigan

there

white

sucker

population.

It resides

there

good

part

the year.

But come

spring,

generally

about

mid

April,

they head

into the

tributaries

to Lake

Michigan. They

the

riffles, and

that’s where

they

spawn.

you cut

off their

access from

Lake

Michigan

their

spawning areas,

eventually

all those

adults would

die

out.

they can

live and feed

adults in

the

lake,

but they need

the

tributaries

to be

able

spawn.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Do some

of these

spawn

-- white

suckers,

they

spawn

on sholes

lakes?

MR. SEEGERT:

I’m not aware

white

sucker being

shole

spawner,

no.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Okay.

Walleye?

walleye

live in

lakes?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Yes, they

do.

And

they

can spawn

over sholes.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Thank

you.

HEARING OFFICER

TIPSORD:

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Page 75

the adjusted

standard is that you are talking

about in your

question. Don’t

put it

him

interpret

that,

because I

will

need

jump in

and explain

it. But it’s your

question, and

you object to

interceding —-

MS.

WILLIAMS:

It was

a quote.

MS.

DIERS:

I was using his

quote,

I was asking

about

his

quote.

MS. FRANZETTI:

But now you’re

going —- No.

The second part of your

question.

MS. DIERS:

You’re asking

about do I

have any of

the

data

on the ambient

temperatures? You’re going on

to the second

part? Okay.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Yes.

I think he’s

answered the

first question. I mean

I think

actually we can move on, if

you

agree. I

think he has. I

mean the first question

what

do you

mean

slightly higher

thermal

standards,

and I think he’s answered

that.

the

simple solution here

may be if

you

agree

just

go on to the next part of the

Page

part

Question 142.

MS.

DIERS:

Sure.

That’s

fine.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Did

you

already

state

for

the

record? I’m

sorry.

MS.

DIERS:

We’re

the

data

part,

right?

MS.

DIERS:

you

have

any

data

comparing

ambient

temperatures

the

Upper

Dresden

Island

Pool,

Brandon

Pool

the

CAWS

before

and

after

Adjusted

Standard 96-10

took

effect?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Okay.

No.

have

not

compared

ambient

temperatures

the

areas

you’re

talking

about

before

versus

after

AS 96

took

effect.

MS.

DIERS:

And

you

know

Commonwealth

Edison

had

variances

from

the

Pollution

Control

Board

prior

the

adjusted

the

Adjusted Standard 96-10?

don’t

recall.

MR.

ETTINGER:

What’s

your

understanding

what

the

adjusted

standard

did?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Well,

the

adjusted

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MS.

FRANZETTI:

Just

up.

The

individuals who

you

named:

Mr.

Vondruska,

Mr.

Cummings,

Sneen,

and

Kazinski,

have

they

all

participated

the

QHEI

work

that’s

been

done that

part

the

data

which,

Mr.

Seegert,

you

are

relying

in your

testimony

the

attached

report

in Exhibit

366?

Mr. Vondruska,

you

want

answer

that,

that’s

fine.

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

Mr. Cummings

would

have participated

scoring

the

QHEI during

maybe

portions

the

‘93 to

‘95

sampling.

did

most

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Could

you

speak

up, please?

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

I’m sorry.

For

the

studies

conducted

in 1993

1995,

Mr.

Cummings

would

have

been

involved

with

some of

the QHEI

scoring

in the

field.

did

the

vast

majority

it. For

the EA’s

2003

study,

I did

all of

that,

and

also did

all

EA’s 2008

study.

MS. DIERS:

What

year

were

you

certified,

sir?

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Page

Illinois DNR.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Right.

But can

you be

specific about what

you

did for them.

MR. SEEGERT:

did

-- I

shouldn’t

just say

EA did,

but

I was the lead

person on doing endangered species studies.

We looked for

a couple different endangered

species on

their behalf.

MS. WILLIAMS: Any other

state

agencies

you

can think of?

MR.

SEEGERT:

Pardon?

MS. WILLIAMS:

Any other

state

agencies

you

can think of?

MR.

SEEGERT: Not

state.

I did also

get -- I know it’s not

state, but

we’ve

done

several projects for various

corps

engineer

districts, but I’m not -— Oh, and

we’ve

done work for the Indiana Department

Transportation.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Thank you.

MS.

FRANZETTI: And given that there’s

been

a lot of reference

Ohio, these

classification systems, Ohio IBI, I want

ask Question 37. What Ohio

streams

has

Page 91

reviewed

with

respect

to use

attainment and

nonattainment?

MR.

SEEGERT:

The

Muskegon River,

which involved

multiple

locations

-- probably

about

locations,

the Portage

River,

again,

multiple

locations; the

Ottawa

River,

multiple

locations;

the Great

Miami River,

multiple

locations;

the

east

fork

the

Little

Miami River,

multiple

locations;

Hurford Run,

multiple

locations;

the

Scioto

River,

that’s

the river that

runs

through

Columbus,

Ohio, multiple

locations;

the

leading

system in southeastern

Ohio,

many

locations.

We had

network of

about

locations that

we ran. We

sampled

annually

for

about a four-year

period

of time many

locations

on the Ohio

River for the

Seward

District

in the Cleveland

area.

did

multiple locations

the Cuyahoga

River,

Dick’s

Creek

multiple

locations;

Domer

Ditch,

west

fork of

Beaver Creek,

multiple

locations;

Done Brook,

Robinson

Run,

Flat

Lick

Creek,

Big Creek, Mill

Creek,

Euclid

Creek,

West Creek,

Shakers

Creek, Miller

Page 92

Creek, North

Branch Dick’s Creek, Kyger

Creek,

Paint River, Pleasant Run, Kain Run,

and Kain is with

K-A-I—N,

Brushy Fork,

Clifty Creek,

Little Darby Creek, East Branch

Miamiville creek, Homer Run, Shaylor Run,

Shaylor is spelled

S-H-A-Y-L-O-R, Wolf Gen

Creek,

Clear Creek, Rocky Fork, Sugar Creek,

and

I’m sure there are others that I’m

forgetting.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

Where is the Mill

Creek

that

you’re talking

about

in there?

Which

one?

MR. SEEGERT:

Mill Creek.

Was that

one of the ones that

you guys

did for

certification?

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

That was one of the

ones.

MR. SEEGERT:

part

this

certification

process that we were talking

about for the QHEI, that Ohio doesn’t

just

sit

you

classroom, they require

-- they

say, okay,

you do

the

classroom stuff and

then

you

have

out on your own and on

your own nickel,

I might

add,

and collect --

Page

and

do whatever

they want

you to

whether

it’s

QHEI

fish.

our

guys

had

around

different

streams

which

they

had

already

sampled

and

then

our scores

have

agree

within

certain

range

of the

scores.

believe

this was

Marty

Sneen,

one

of the

individuals

said was

certified

when

went

through

his

certification

process.

That

was

one

of the

reference

streams

that he

went

to.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

Where?

MR.

SEEGERT:

I don’t

know where

it is

in Ohio.

I can’t

even

speculate

because

there are

lot

of Mill

Creeks,

MS.

WILLIAMS:

want

know

it’s

the

one

that

runs

behind

mom’s

house.

MR.

SEEGERT:

Yeah,

think

stopped

in there

for

bite

to eat.

I’m

not sure.

MR.

VONDRUSKA:

North

Columbus?

MS.

FRANZETTI:

I have

no further

questions.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

All

right.

Let’s

take about

minutes,

come

back,

and

we’ll

power

through.

Page

(Short

break taken.)

* * ****

Page

STATE

ILLINOIS

SS.

COUNTY

COOK

LAURA

MUKAHIRN,

being

Certified

Shorthand

Reporter

doing

business

the

City

Chicago,

Illinois,

County

of Cook,

certify

that

reported

shorthand

the

proceedings

had

the

foregoing

hearing

the

above—entitled

cause.

And

I certify

that the

foregoing

true

and

correct

transcript

all

shorthand

notes

taken

aforesaid

and

contains

all

the

proceedings had

the

said

meeting

the above-entitled

cause.

LAURA

MUKAHIRN,

CSR

NO. 084—003592

Page

28:15 29:10

74:1,5,13

14:19,23

30:20

anywhere

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19:11

27:20

62:11

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89:10

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28:13

85:14

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15:1146:5

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4:16

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50:1

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20:8

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71:20

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5:14

6:23

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44:9

69:15

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10:21

11:22

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36:18

63:7

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24:11

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12:5 11 24

63:2474:19

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63:8

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19:20

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18:121

4:4

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88:13

3:15

81:4

19:221:4

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67:2

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4:5

54:17

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Alisa2:3

91:15

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30:15,21

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81:13

3:17

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32:21

34:18

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11:4

45:8

3:4

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16:2 59:19

36:17

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36:1838:8

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18:828:9

28:651:7

39:11,21

87:13,16,21

73:20

73:19

31:2 36:19

60:13

42:24

45:15

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74:5

46:23 50:7

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46:14,16,17

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81:13

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62:2082:19

20:643:2

46:18 48:8

activity 67:18

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51:12

84:5

appropriate

48:23 49:15

actual5:23

95:11

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35:13,16

50•1252•8

25:19

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28:1131:16

43:1445:15

43:12

55:22

64:4

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73:18 74:1

33:2

48:19

49:13

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65:19,21

12:1924:3

76:10,14

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63:1768:11

aquarium

68:2270:7

29:18,23

78:21

79:3

21:7

71:2272:1

71:20

70:23

71:16

41:842:7

afternoon

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74:1779:10

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72:575:2,9

53:475:19

4:15,21

7:1267:3

82:583:9

15:20,21

75:13 76:14

79:3 88:18

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19:15

60:5

82:1785:3

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9:3,18

53:274:10

75:18,22

60:8,12,12

89:1,4 90:3

43:16

47:2

10:20

11:20

76:3

93:4

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60:15

67:9

91:5,14,16

57:2058:2

12:24

13:16

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34:5

67:1088:22

92:11,20

64:1392:24

28:1934:17

45:1960:10

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89:1

93:23

added

57:21

49:7

60:19

always

31:5

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aquatic-life

above33:4

57:22

62:21

64:16

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15:7,8

87:7

33:24

adding

10:12

70:22

71:8

30:22

73:23 Antonio

5:9

ARBITRA...

above-entit...

57:20

71:1885:10

74:9,12

5:19,206:1

57:6

1:895:8,12

additional

86:891:5

75:14 76:8

anybody

areal:43:7

absence35:7

10:4

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41:6

17:11,12,14

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anyone

4:1

17:22,22

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26:21

89:22

90:10

1:53:9

44:23

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adjusted

90:13

American

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46:3,22,23

27:2028:4

27:15

45:24

agency2:6

89:8

57:18 78:11

73:16

74:24

73:17,20

14:15,17,18

ammonia

88:10

81:7,8,12

Page 97

85:1886:22

42:9,11

59:2,4

behind93:15

43:1144:12

break57:7

86:23

87:1

43:447:7,8

62:2177:13

being25:18

44:1560:23

58:13,14

87:489:3

54:7,11

93:23

44:24

72:18

89:20

94:1

91:18

67:1

balance

84:15

95:4

biologist

bridge26:18

areas

16:21

attain33:2

27:17

28:5

beieve5:3

31:21

bring77:13

19:2,6

59:19

60:8

28:16

5:22

6:24

biologists

broad48:19

23:13,16

87:21

balanced8:4

7:20,23

82:20

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25:17

46:24

attainability

8:24

13:2

14:23

bit

9:11

brought

62:1668:15

43:5,10

bank66:23

16:517:16

10:1547:4

47:1654:15

70:13

72:9

60:1,19

Barcusen

19:14,23

79:24

Brushy92:3

76:13 85:21

attainable

13:3

20:721:14

bite93:17

BTU24:2

around44:22

87:7

barge

17:23

30:18

32:23 blackl3:14

bucket29:14

93:3

attained63:2

18:4,4

40:3,21

blue89:13

29:15,15

asked

4:11

attainment

67:16

54:6 56:8

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10:7

3 1:23

12:24

25:7

12:4 60:14

barges7:6

57:10

62:13

blunt-nose

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42:23 43:20

87:13,15

17:24

66:23

73:11

80:1

81:9

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44:446:11

91:1

67:2,3,7,17

93:6

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bunchl3:23

47:20

53:1

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16:2,2

67:19

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2:5 3:4,12

29:20

53:2

58:18

attendant

base68:11

16:4

3:14,15

bury67:14

asking3o:2

62:4

69:1

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16:2

4:11

18:15

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35:8

60:18

attended

based

9:14

benchmar...

76:18

79:4

75:9,13

64:24

12:2

20:18

28:12

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assemblage

attention

21:6,8

24:2

Besides

boat

38:11

C2:1

48:16 81:6

54:17

33:649:9

88:20

boatable

calculate

assess2l:13

attributed

50:13 64:22

best30:5,7

11:22

37:2

36:6

assessment

51:15

79:20

85:3

30:10,12

39:9,12

calculated

60:1

AUDIENCE

basically

32:15 77:10

43:1,12

12:8

35:12

assessments

40:5

11:4

12:6,9

Bethlehem

44:7

calculating

82:11

Austin5:19

14:1,625:9

89:11

bodies20:9

9:5

assign

56:6

available

25:21

30:4

better

4:17

20:12

calculation

assimilate

36:8

30:6,10

20:5

22:24

bodyl7:7

58:4

38:10

Avenue2:7

46:1850:11

26:2127:12

18:724:13

calculations

associated

average52:2

58:6

62:19

59:18

74:21

60:464:12

58:1

62:9,23

59:18

63:2285:5

79:585:1

69:22

87:10

calibrations

70:12

avoidance

85:23

between

8:21

87:21,24,24

36:22

assume

84:24

62:16

basis

16:15

10:15,21

both

23:16

call 17:23

assumes

aware6:4

41:2044:19

11:12

12:5

29:5

32:18

32:6,7

51:24

64:16,17

45:2

57:11

13:823:2

46:20,24

54:16,19

assuming

72:17

62:18

49:24

86:24

64:789:5

65:8

68:21

7:10

a.ml:14

Beaver9l:21

bias4:15

bottom88:7

82:18

assumption

before

1:8,10

big 12:22

boulder

called

1:9

85:3

4:618:15

17:1541:6

86:12

84:4

assurance

B 15:1046:1

38:9

45:24

91:23

box2:7 57:19

calls7:18

56:22

back5:16

52:15

73:16

bigger6s:10

BP89:12,12

30:19

attached 23:7

13:19,20

74:1

76:10

biggest

65:9

branch

22:4

came 38:5

42:862:10

15:422:18

76:1478:19

65:15

92:1,4

56:758:1

62:23

68:14

27:1239:18

82:13

biological

Brandon

7817

83:7

44:1645:4

begin4:75:3

21:13,15,16

22:3,24

canall9:3

attachment

51:20 54:18

behalf

2:5,15

29:17

36:17

68:10

73:24

25:20 63:21

34:7,8,21

55:2057:16

90:8

38:1639:8

76:10

capablel6:4

Page

carpsuckers

certified

churned

18:6

13:5

coming

65:19

20:4

8:17

82:12,24

Cincinnati

25:10

86:9

conclude 8:2

cascading

83:24 84:10

24:21

closed 85:18

commencing

16:5 23:15

62:8

93:795:4

circulated

closely47:19

1:14

49:23

80:18

case 12:11

certify

95:6,9

44:21 45:1

closest

25:22

conunent

concluded

13:13

18:9

chairman2:2

circumstan...

cobble86:11

19:19

23:8

21:16

58:2

3:12 4:22

17:8 87:23

cobble/bou...

conunented

conclusion

65:16 78:19

32:10,18

citation45:5

73:7,9

19:18

21:8,12,18

78:2080:1

34:237:17

cite6:16

Codel:53:9

conunercial

81:5

87:3,16

change

43:14

66:24

Coeur

89:13

7:5,7,21,24

conclusions

cases

11:7,8

50:20

51:7

citedl3:10

colleague

16:11 17:6

23:1

69:2,6

30:14

56:17

51:10 52:7

63:13

84:5

common

condition

69:19

52:8,10

citingl3:22

collect40:22

81:11

60:6,985:8

catch8l:20

62:2477:6

City89:16

41:389:1

Commonw...

85:986:2,6