OR
Page
1
ILLINOIS
POLLUTION
CONTROL
BOARD
IN
THE
MATTER
OF:
WATER
QUALITY
STANDARDS
AND
)
R08-09
EFFLUENT
LIMITATIONS FOR THE
)
(Rulerna
CHICAGO
AREA
WATERWAY
SYSTEM
)
Water)
AND
THE
LOWER
DES PLAINES
RIVER:
PROPOSED
AMENDMENTS
)
232009
TO
35 Ill.
Adm.
Code
Parts
)
STATEoFLuNoI
301,
302,
303
and
304
)
Pollution
Contro
Goad
REPORT
OF
PROCEEDINGS
held
in
the
above—entitled
cause
before
Hearing
Officer
Marie
Tipsord,
called
by
the
Illinois
Pollution
Control
Board,
taken
before
Laura
Mukahirn,
CSR,
a
notary
public
within
and
for
the
County
of
Cook and
State
of Illinois,
at
160
North
LaSalle
Street,
Room
N—502,
Chicago,
Illinois,
on
the 9th
day
of
November,
2009,
commencing
at
the
hour
of 12:30
p.m.
Page
2
1
APPEARANCES
2
MS.
MARIE
TIPSORD,
Hearing
Officer
MR. GIRARD
TANNER,
Chairman
3
MR.
THOMAS
JOHNSON,
Member
MR.
ANAND
RAO,
Member
4
MS. ALISA
LIU,
Member
MS.
ANDREA
MOORE,
Member
5
DR. SHUNDAR
LIN, Member
Appearing
on
behalf
of the
Illinois
6
Pollution
Control
Board
7
ILLINOIS
ENVIRONMENTAL
PROTECTION AGENCY
1021
North
Grand
Avenue
East
8
P.O.
Box
19276
Springfield, Illinois
62794—9276
9
(217)782—5544
BY:
MS.
DEBORAH
WILLIAMS
10
MS. STEPHANIE
DIERS
MR.
ROBERT
SULSKI
11
MR.
SCOTT
TWAIT
MR. HOWARD
ESSIG
12
MR.
ROY SMOGOR
13
FRANZETTI
LAW
FIRM
10
South
LaSalle
Street
14
Suite
3600
Chicago,
Illinois
60603
15
(312)251—5590
BY:
MS.
SUSAN
FRANZETTI
16
Appearing
on
behalf
of Midwest
Generation
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Page
3
1
HEARING
OFFICER TIPSORD:
It’s
12:44.
2
Good
afternoon,
everyone.
Welcome
back.
3
We’re
ready
to
start
the
afternoon
with
the
4
testimony
of
Greg
Seegert;
is
that
correct?
5
MR.
SEEGERT:
Seegert.
6
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Can
we
also
have
7
Mr.
VonDruska
sworn.
He
may
not
wind
up
8
adding
anything,
but
in
the
event
he does,
9
this
way
he’s
already
sworn
in.
10
(Witnesses sworn.)
11
HEARING
OFFICER TIPSORD:
Thank
you.
12
And
with
that,
we’ll
mark
the
prefiled
13
testimony
of
Greg
Seegert.
If
there’s
no
14
objection,
we’ll
mark
prefiled
testimony
as
15
Exhibit
366.
16
Seeing
none,
it’s
Exhibit
366.
17
And
I
believe
we’ll
start
with
the
IEPA.
18
Examination
19
By
Ms.
Diers
20
Q.
Good
afternoon,
Mr.
Seegert.
My
name
21
is
Stephanie
Diers,
and
I
will
be
asking
questions
22
on
behalf
of
Illinois
EPA.
And
I’m
going
to
begin
23
with
our
prefiled
question
1.
Please
explain
your
24
experience
with
the
waters
that
are
part
of
the
Page 4
1
Illinois EPAs proposal.
2
MS. FRANZETTI:
And
you
did mean
to
3
include extensive experience?
4
MS. DIERS:
Yes.
Sorry.
5
MR. ETTINGER:
But not with
6
Commonwealth Edison.
7
MR. SEEGERT:
I’ve been studying the
8
Dresden, Brandon, and Lockport pools almost
9
annually since I came
to
EA, which was in
10
early 1982. I also
studied the
south
branch
11
of the Chicago River near the Mid General
12
Fisk Station, and although I’ve been
involved
13
with those studies for 27 years, my role
has
14
changed over time. When I first came I was
15
younger and stronger and I
used to go out and
16
do
field work fairly regularly. And
so
as
17
part of that
I was
involved directly in the
18
fish collections, the electrofishing, the
19
seining, the gillnetting, all the things
that
20
field biologists
do.
Then when
I
became
21
project manager, which was
about
1985,
at
22
that point I didn’t
go out
in the field
23
nearly
as
much,
but
I was still involved
in
24
preparing
the
final reports and overseeing
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:3
::
a
CD
U)
hi
-
CD
U)
Ft
H-
0
a
hi
Di
Ft
o
H
Ft
0
:3
C-)
o
NH
H
NH
Ft
CD
:3’
C)
H-
Ft
:i
hi
C)
U)
CD
U)
CD
0
CD
h-h
CD
Di
3
a
h-h
Ft
NH
Ft
H-
CD
H-
Di
C)
U)
CD
Ft
Ft
H-
:3
U)
H
H-
i
Ft
C)
Di
0
CD
Di
Ft
h-h
-<
NH
CD
LY
NH
a
U)
Di
Ft
CD
NH
U)
a
U)
Di
CD
Di
H-
0
C)
a
NH
C)
H-
U)
CD
h-h
o
0
:3
Di
CD
Ft
H
3
:3
C’)
Di
NH
Ft
Ft
CD
Ft
CD
a
H-
a
h-h
H-
0
o
3
Ft
hi
H
CD
-
0
:3-’
:3
Ft
CD
Ft
Y
I-<
0
hi
CD
-
H-
Ft
0
CD
CD
Di
Ft
U)
hi
LQ
Di
CD
CD
NH
3
NH
hi
a
<
H-
U)
H-
Ft
0
U)
C)
CD
0
a
0
:3
CD
Di
ht
Ft
U)
H-
H-
o
i—-
a
hi
CD
CD
CD
a
H-
U)
hi
Ft
:3
Ft
Ft
Q
Ft
CD
0
Di
U)
CD
C)
0
U)
Ft
a
u
Di
0
Ft
Di
-‘
Di
U)
U)
CD
H-
Ft
C)
Di
Di
NH
:3
a
:3
Ft
U)
:3-’
CD
CD
a
L<
Di
H
U)
:3
0
Di
hi
NH
CD
NH
a
CD
hi
Di
Di
3
a
C)
:3
o
H-
Ft
Di
hi
Di
Q
U)
CD
hi
o
Di
o
:i
a
a
Di
LY
CD
a
Ft
Di
Ft
Ft
CD
Di
hi
0
:3-’
H-
J
Ft
Di
o
Di
:3-’
U)
F-
Ft
CD
o
hi
C)
LQ
NH
0
H-
NH
C)
C)
Di
NH
Di
0
:i
CD
NH
:3
a
C)
U)
—
Ft
Di
H-
CD
a
Ft
a
a
CD
D
hi
CD
0
-<
<1
Di
Ft
CD
D’
0
hi
hi
H-
CD
Ft
NH
Ft
Di
CD
H-
:3-’
Ft
CD
CD
Di
a
U)
-
:3
CD
hi
0
NH
Di
,
0
hi
CD
hi
Ft
U)
‘<
NH
:3-’
1<
H
o
a
;s-
H
hi
CD
-‘
:3-’
U)
CD
H-
M
-<
:3
P
Di
C)
:3
hi
Di
CD
NH
a
Ft
U)
o
0
0
H
Di
0
-
:3
Ft
a
0
:3
:3
CD
CD
C)
:3-’
Ft
a
CD
D’
‘-ci
Di
C)
0
CD
Di
Ft
3
LQ
Di
Ft
CD
•
CD
a
NH
NH
Dl
t3-’
0
:3
Ft
Ft
CD
Ft
0
CD
hi
0
CD
U)
NH
Di
H
CD
U)
Di
a
Ft
:3-’
CD
Ft
Di
0
3
U)
Di
CD
;s-’
hi
CD
U)
0
:3
:3
hi
CD
hi
CD
:
h-h
:3-’
CD
Di
hi
Ft
Ft
Ft
0
:3-’
H-
Ft
U)
:3-’
H-
U)
U)
U)
U)
Ft
L<
CD
U)
Ft
CD
H-
U)
NH
hi
01-
CD
c
Cl)
‘-<
Ft
0
Di
:3
Ft
Lxi
H
H
NH
z
C)
Lxi
NH
U)
0
hi
hi
NH
:3
0
:3
hi
Page 12
1
than
others.
But
yes, that
answer applies
2
throughout the
system.
3
MS.
FRANZETTI:
If I
could
just
have
a
4
moment.
5
(Of f the
record.)
6
MS.
FRANZETTI:
If
the
witness can
7
clarify
or modify
his
answer.
8
MR.
SEEGERT:
Well, I mean
there
are
9
parts
of
the CAWS
which we
haven’t
really
10
talked very
much
about,
but
where
there
isn’t
11
barge
traffic
going on.
So obviously
the
12
answer
would not apply
to there.
When I’m
13
talking
about
the
system,
I
guess
I
should
14
clarify,
I’m
primarily
talking
about the
ship
15
canal
which
begins
at
the
south
fork,
but
I’m
16
also
including
the
south fork,
since
17
functionally it’s
the
same system
as the ship
18
canal and
then
the
Lower Des
Plaines River.
19
So
those
are
the areas
that I’m
talking
20
about.
21
BY MS.
DIERS:
22
Q.
Where
does
Brandon Pool
fit in
the
23
areas that
you’re
talking
about?
24
A.
Well, according
to the
rulemaking,
NJ
NJ
NJ
NJ
NJ
H
HI
I-’
HI
HI
HI
HI
HI
HI
.
Ui
NJ
HI
C)
co
a)
J
Ci
U,
Ui
NJ
-
co
Ci
C.i
NJ
W
H
H
LC
cQ
U)
ci)
iJ
Ft
H
Ci)
CD
3
0
0
CD
3
0
3
ci)
3
cC)
a
CD
CD
C)
a
o
CD
3
CD
U)
U)
Ft
HI
H
a
Ft
HI
H
H-
Ft
CD
0
cii
U)
ci)
Hi
0
3
-
3
H
Ft
Ft
U)
H
3
Ci)
U)
Ft
HI
(1)
Ft
Mi
Ft
H-
0)
Q
3
CD
0
CD
0
-
Ft
U)
CD
U)
CD
0
0
3
3
H-
HI
c
H-
0)
H
3
H-i
5
-
Ft
Ci)
H
F-
3
HI
CD
C)
Ft
H-
CD
5
0
<
a
ci)
U)
H
C)
5
ci)
H-
C
HI
Ft
F-
3
U)
0
F-
H
CD
Ft
U)
3
Ft
3
0
C
0
Ft
Ft
HI
‘-<
0
Ft
3
H-
Ci)
C
‘
a
a
1
a
H
Hi
H-
0
C
CD
CD
C)
Ci)
5
ci)
H
CD
I
D
H-
CD
0
ci)
H
cii
CI)
H
D
H
HI
H-
<
H
C
cii
3
U)
Ft
3
Ft
3
Ft
CD
Ft
HI
U)
U)
0
U)
(I)
C3
Ft
cC)
CD
Cl)
‘-<
0
F—i
D
<
•
0
CD
Ft
•
CD
0
(1)
HI
•
U)
H-
H
Ft
0
CD
H-
HI
3
cii
Q
W
C)
U)
cii
HI
a
CD
Ft
ci)
3
t3
Hi
H
Ft
Ft
J
•
a
C
0
H
Ft
CD
‘-<
H-
U)
-
3
CD
CD
CD
a
HI
CD
C
ci)
CI)
L<
23
Hi
Cl)
a
HI
Ft
0
a
U)
L’l
U)
3
Ft
H-
0
Mi
0
C)
H-
3
Ft
H
Z
3
H-
23
Ft
0-
0
Ft
C
Z
CD
3
3
CD
CD
D
0
[‘)
H-
CI)
Cl)
H-
ci)
0
CD
I
N)
H
f-I
CD
<1
CD
ci)
fr
Ij
••
Q
3
3
L<
5
31
CD
3
CD
23
CD
CD
C)
H
H
H-
3
Ft
0
U)
H-
3
H
3
3
0
H
>
C)
Ft
H-
H
C)
Mi
•U
CD
-U
C
3
CD
H
Ft
Ft
Ci)
H-
Ci)
3
HI
ci)
I—I
0-
0
H
Ft
C)
Ft
HI
a
a
U)
U)
cC)
••
3
H-
0
HI
3
CD
H-
CD
CD
0
CD
Ft
Ft
Ft
HI
K)
CD
C
CD
Ft
U)
Hi
H
Hi
Ft
HI
-
0
C
Ft
0-
H
CD
Hi
H-
0
0
3
Cl)
H-
H-
CD
CD
C)
H
H-
0-
C)
U
C
>
C)
Ft
H
0
3
3
U)
a
3
0
CD
U)
CD
HI
H
3
CD
3
0
CD
H
C3
3
Ft
CD
H-
C
3
a
CD
a
U)
ci)
C
3
ci)
0
Ft
H-
Ft
U)
3
Ft
-
ci)
H-
5
Ft
cC)
Ft
H
3
0
Ft
3
U)
3
U)
Ft
3
3
H-
Ft
t
Z
3
Ft
3
cii
3
CD
CD
CD
CD
CD
a
CD
HI
HI
CD
CD
ci)
ci)
Ft
U)
Ft
3
HI
‘C3
ci)
U)
CD
CD
Ci)
Ft
0
Ft
CI)
o
Ft
U)
‘
Mi
CD
Ft
C)
U)
3
H-
H
3
C
Cl
Hi
CD
•
H-
3
H-
H
CD
C)
3
CD
U)
3
Mi
CD
CD
0.
U)
U)
5
0
HI
Ft
CD
CD
CD
Ft
CD
ci)
Ci)
H-
H
H-
‘3
cii
•
5
0
3
U)
H
C)
U)
CD
3
-
H
HI
CD
a
CD
<
CD
3
CD
CD
H
H
CD
H
Ft
CD
U)
a
o
Ft
H-
C)
U)
cC)
H
C)
—
ci)
Ft
CD
H
C
0
‘-<
CD
Ft
Hi
HI
CD
0
U)
C)
3_
C)
C)
0
•‘J
3
ci)
HI
0
H-
0
H-
-
5
s
0
H
Ft
Hi
CD
a
-<
C
H-
<
H
3
CI)
CD
W
CI)
((I
CD
H-
H
0
0
3
CD
U)
H
CD
U)
C)
I-<
C
CD
C
l
ci)
H-
Ft
ci)
cii
0
0-
CD
H-
0
CD
Ft
H
CD
Ft
3
C)
3
H-
3cC)
H
Ft
CD
iQ
3
C
U)
3
3
H-
0-
3
CD
3
0.
CD
l
3
0
cC)
H
HI
Ft
CD
Ft
-
0
0
HI
Page 14
1
is it in
one of them?
Can
you
clarify, Greg?
2
MR.
SEEGERT:
Could
you
repeat
the
3
question,
please.
4
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Do
you
mind
if I jump
5
in?
You’re
trying
to
get
clarity
there.
You
6
tend
to use
two terms:
Chicago
Sanitary and
7
Ship Canal
and the
ship canal.
And then
you
8
refer
to
either
Lower
Des Plaines,
or
9
sometimes
I
think
you
say -- you
use
the
10
regulatory
term Upper
Dresden
Island Pool.
11
Their
question is
Brandon
Pool in one
of
12
those
categories or
are
you
leaving
it
out?
13
MR. SEEGERT:
It’s
in both of
those
14
categories.
15
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Okay.
16
MR. SEEGERT:
Part
of
Brandon Pool
is
17
in
the ship canal
and
part of it is
in
the
18
Lower Des
Plaines.
19
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Based
on
what’s
been
20
proposed
in this rule?
21
MR. SEEGERT:
What’s
been
proposed.
22
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Counsel,
does that
do
23
it?
24
MR.
ETTINGER:
I
have
a
clarifying
NJ
NJ
NJ
NJ
NJ
F-’
H
F—’
F
I-’
F-’
H
I-’
H’
H’
W
NJ
F-’
CO
co
CO
-J
CO
U’
Ui
NJ
H’
0
co
CD
—J
CO
U’
CJ
NJ
F-’
0
H
0
1
h-h
h-h
C)
Ci
M
C)
C)
H
-Q
ct
CD
CD
CD
h-h
H-
3
hi
hi
0
CD
H-
‘-<
0
0
CD
H-
3
c-h
hi
ct
H-
<
0
0
3
CD
CD
C)
Q
3
3
hi
CD
CD
CD
cC)
CD
c-h
h-h
CD
3
3
hi
3
3
CD
CD
CD
hi
hi
CD
hi
3
CD
H-
CD
CD
CD
CD
‘t3
c-h
hi
CD
hi
C)
C)
H
ct
H-
C)
C)
CD
ct
H
CD
CD
0
0
c-h
CD
3
3
H
c-h
c-h
C)
0
0
H-
0
0
W
3
H
CD
H-
CD
H-
Z
CD
CD
çt
3
CD
Q
CD
Q
hi
C)
H-
H-
1
3
c-h
c-h
C)
i
Q.
C).
H-
CD
D
H-
c-h
<
CD
CD
3
3
CD
CD
CD
CD
3
CD
CD
cC)
cC)
CD
CD
CD
C)
c-h
c-h
CD
CD
CD
c-h
CD
hi
hi
CD
•‘J
Li
•
hi
0
CD
Li
0
CD
0
-
CD
L<
0
H-
hi
Li
H
CD
3
Li
H
Li
c
c-h
CD
0
3
3
H-
Li
H
CD
3
L’]
H
c-h
Li
c-h
H-
0
c-h
CD
0
CD
CD
CT)
Hi
CD
H-
<
CD
CT)
I-I
Y
CT)
3
CD
H-)
3
hi
-
Li
Z
0
3
C)
Li
Z
CD
Li
CD
0
h-h
CD
C)
H-
c-h
0
3
hi
2i
CT)
0
c-h
2i
CT)
c-h
hi
hi
hi
CD
CD
0
CD
CD
H
Li
c-h
Lii
h-h
H-
H
Li
Ci
H
Ci
0
CD
c-h
CD
3
H
c-h
3
hi
0
tI
CD
c-h
C).
i
3
••
CD
CD
CD
3
L)
CD
D
h-h
c-h
0
-<
3
3
CD
CD
Ci
CD
‘-<
CD
ii
c-h
CD
H-
c-h
hi
Hi
hi
0
CD
CD
0
H-
CD
1
CD
0
H-
CD
F<
CD
H-
c-h
0
3
3
CD
3
CD
hi
3
3
Hi
HI
CD
ID
ID
CD
hi
C)
3
cC)
cC)
-
0
c-h
CD
CD
c-h
H
CD
CD
Lii
CD
hi
c-h
CD
CD
CD
CD
‘tI
hi
c-h
ii
CD
Q
-
•
CD
hi
CD
0
h-h
H
hi
c-h
CI
hi
CD
3
0
hi
0
CD
0
H-
H
CD
h-h
CD
CD
c-h
0
L<
0
C)
3
c-h
3
hi
•
CD
H-
h-h
hi
h-h
c-h
CD
0
Q
HI
3
H
Q
H
CD
CD
CD
H-
c-h
CD
CD
H
H
hi
CD
c-h
CD
CD
0
CD
Li
cQ
hi
3
CD
hi
H
C).
H
CD
CD
Li
hi
H-
Li
H-
Q
Fi)
ti
o
CD
LY
0
•
s
H-
C).
Li
cC)
c-h
CD
3
3
0
hi
CD
H-
HI
h-h
H-
3
CD
H
Q
CD
J
-
CD
tl
CD
3
0
hi
3
cC)
H-
c-h
Li
cC)
c-h
CD
H-
H-
CD
CD
0
CD
CD
cC)
0
D
CD
CD
cC)
0
c-h
C)
c-h
3
)
0
)
‘3
H-
CD
CD
0
CD
0
CD
3
CD
CD
H
0
c-h
CD
c-h
Li
c-h
H
CD
Li
ti
H
CD
c-h
0
D
C)
o
cC)
C)
CD
tJ
LJ
0
CD
H
c-h
H
CD
c-h
CD
H
hi
CD
0
CD
‘-<
Ci
CD
3
H
‘ti
ct
hi
H-
cC)
C)
c-h
h-h
CD
CD
H-
<
‘-j
hi
0
c-h
CD
CD
c-h
H-
h-h
Li
hi
H-
CD
Cii
CD
CD
CD
hi
CD
CD
H-
CD
CD
CD
•
cC)
h-h
t
H-
CD
CD
hi
c-h
CD
CD
CD
Li
CD
CD
-
hi
CD
CD
Hi
Page
16
1
the
Upper
Des
Plaines
which
is a
smaller
2
water
body,
sort of
like
the distinction
3
between
some
people
like
to
live
in
big
4
cities,
some
people
like
to
live
in small
5
towns.
There’s
nothing
physically
preventing
6
them
from
moving
from
one
place
to
another,
7
but they
tend
to like
one
area
over
the
8
other.
9
MR.
ETTINGER:
What if
a
fish
had
a
10
job
in
the
lower
just
north
of
the
damn,
it
11
might have
to
commute.
12
MR.
SEEGERT:
I’m
not aware
of
any
13
fish
that
have
jobs.
14
MR.
ETTINGER:
Thank you.
15
BY MS.
DIERS:
16
Q.
Mr.
Seegert,
in the
line
of questions
17
I was
asking
you
before
where
you
thought
Illinois
18
EPA
failed,
and
you
talked
about
some
of
the
habitat
19
data.
Could
you be
more specific
about
what
data
20
was
available
but
ignored
by
Illinois
EPA?
21
A.
I don’t
think
I
said
it
was
—- I
22
didn’t
say
ignored
by
Illinois
EPA.
Based
on
my
23
reading
of everything
that
was provided,
it
looked
24
to
me
like
you
relied
primarily
on the
data,
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Page
21
1
do
that.
Well,
you
can
do
those
things,
but
to do
2
it in a
meaningful
manner
where
you’re
actually
3
going
to make
a
difference
in the
biological
4
community,
you
have
to do
a
lot
of it.
When
you do
5
a
lot
of
something,
it
costs
a
lot of
money.
And
6
there aren’t
any plans
for
this level
of
remediation
7
or
restoration
that
we’re
not
aware
of.
And,
as
I
8
said,
we’ve
collected
data
on the
fish,
on
the
9
habitat,
sediment
quality.
Another
--
10
MR. ETTINGER:
Excuse
me.
I hate
to
11
interrupt,
but
is
this
remediation
study
part
12
of your
testimony
somewhere?
Is
it in
the
13
exhibit?
14
MR.
SEEGERT:
I’m
not
going
to
testify
15
with
regard
to
remediation,
no.
16
MR. ETTINGER:
But
you
just
did.
17
MR.
SEEGERT:
Well
-—
18
MS.
FRANZETTI:
He
wants
you to
19
explain
further
what
you’re
referring
to
on
20
remediation
and restoration
systems.
21
MR.
SEEGERT:
Right.
I guess
in
this
22
case,
the
way
I was
using
it
was
in
a
limited
23
sense.
Remediation
would
be
-- the
example
24
I’m
thinking
of
would
be
removal
of the
Page 22
1
contaminated
sediment.
So that’s not
2
restoration.
That’s, in my mind,
3
remediation.
4
MR.
ETTINGER:
I’m
sorry.
I thought
5
you were taking
about habitat
structures, and
6
I didn’t
see any
study
of the
cost of
7
including
habitat
structures. But
you aren’t
8
referring
to that when
you
were
testifying?
9
MR.
SEEGERT: Well, I’m
saying that
if
10
you
needed
to do
restoration
in
a
system
like
11
this, the
cost would, and I don’t have
an
12
exact amount,
but
I know what
restoration
13
costs
in
other
systems of roughly similar
14
magnitude. And
so I’m estimating that in
15
this
case
for
——
even for Upper
Dresden
16
Island
Pool, which is only
eight miles long,
17
you’re probably talking
about
tens or
18
hundreds of
millions of dollars.
19
MR.
ETTINGER:
I thought
you were
20
talking
real money.
Let’s go on. I
won’t
21
interrupt anymore.
22
MR. SEEGERT:
Okay.
And then
the last
23
point that
I wanted
to make
was that
the
24
study
that
was done
by
MBI, for
reasons
that
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Page 24
1
segments
at
our
part of the rulemaking.
2
MR.
ETTINGER:
I’m sorry.
On
3
Attachment 1,
Page 5 of your
testimony,
you
4
do data downstream
Dresden Lock and Dam.
Is
5
that part of
the
body
in the rulemaking?
6
MR.
SEEGERT:
No.
But
that’s
7
historical
data that we’re
just
summarizing.
8
We had already
collected all that
data,
so
9
we’re not
going
to
ignore it.
But all of
the
10
work
that we did
as part of these
proceedings
11
all was
concentrated.
12
MR.
ETTINGER:
But
you do agree that
13
that
data
might
be relevant
to
this
14
proceeding?
15
MS. FRANZETTI:
You’re talking
about
16
the
data
he referenced in
his report?
17
MR.
ETTINGER:
Exactly.
18
MS.
FRANZETTI: Not the Illinois
River
19
data?
20
MR. ETTINGER:
Well, this is
Illinois
21
River
data, isn’t it, downstream?
Dresden
22
Lock and Dam.
23
MS. FRANZETTI:
I meant the
MBI’s
data
24
in the
Illinois River.
Page
25
1
MR.
ETTINGER:
No.
I’m
asking
about
2
his——
3
MS.
FRANZETTI:
That’s
the
distinction
4
I’m trying
to
draw.
5
MR.
ETTINGER:
Actually,
my question
6
is
do
you
believe
that this
information
that
7
you
put
in
your
testimony
regarding
the river
8
is
relevant?
9
MR.
SEEGERT:
Yes.
10
MR. ETTINGER:
Thank
you.
11
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Counsel,
if I
can
just
12
ask one
follow—up
for
clarity.
You
referred
13
to
a
study
down
in the
Fox
River
on
the
14
effects
of impoundment,
but
I don’t
think
you
15
mentioned
who
that
study
was
done
by so
that
16
in
the
record
we
can tell
what
study
you’re
17
referring
to.
Can
you be
a
little
more
18
specific?
19
MR. SEEGERT:
My recollection was
that
20
the
study
was sponsored
by
U.S.
EPA.
There
21
was
a
paper
published,
and the
author
--
lead
22
author
on
that
was
Vick
Santucci,
2007.
I
23
think
the work
was
2007.
The
paper
might
24
have
been
published
the
next year
in 2008,
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Page 28
1
MR.
SEEGERT:
No.
2
MR. ETTINGER:
Why not?
3
MR.
SEEGERT:
Because
walleye,
they
4
could
live in the
system,
but their habitat
5
requirements
are
such
that I don’t
think
that
6
there’s
enough
hard substrate
rock and
cobble
7
that’s going
to
support them either
as
8
adults,
but
particularly
for spawning
9
purposes, okay?
The
best
thing
I can
--
or
10
most
appropriate
thing
to say is there’s
not
11
adequate
spawning
habitat for
walleye in
the
12
system.
13
MR. ETTINGER:
Do
you
know
anything
14
about
the Kankakee
River?
15
MR.
SEEGERT:
I know some
things
about
16
the
Kankakee
River
System.
17
MR. ETTINGER:
Is
there
adequate
18
spawning habitat
for walleye
in the
Kankakee
19
River?
20
MR.
SEEGERT:
Yes.
21
MR. ETTINGER:
Thank
you.
22
HEARING
OFFICER
TIPSORD:
Miss
Diers?
23
BY
MS. DIERS:
24
Q.
I’m going
to
jump
around
just a little
Page 29
1
bit
for
sake
of
topic
and
hopefully
speed up
time
2
wise.
Since
we’re talking
about —-
3
MS.
FRANZETTI:
We’re all
yours for
4
this afternoon
and
tomorrow.
5
BY
MS. DIERS:
6
Q.
We’re
talking
about
the topic
of
7
balanced
population.
If
you look
at
our
prefiled
8
Question
100 with
respect
to Exhibit
2.
We ask on
9
Page 2 of
Exhibit
2
of —-
10
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Give
us
just a second
11
to
catch
up.
12
MS.
DIERS:
I’m sorry
to make
you
jump
13
around.
It
shows
up as
24
on my questions.
14
I don’t
know if
that
helps.
15
MS.
FRANZETTI:
We’re
there.
Now
I’m
16
just
trying
to
get
to Page 2 of Exhibit
2.
17
Okay.
18
BY MS. DIERS:
19
Q.
On
Page 2
of Exhibit 2
of your
20
prefiled
testimony
you state
that
the present
fish
21
community
in the
Lower Des
Plaines
does
not
22
represent
a balanced
population.
Do
you include
the
23
Des Plaines
River
downstream
of the
interstate
55
24
bridge
in
this opinion?
Page
30
1
A.
In
this case
my
answer
is
directed
2
only
to a
portion
of
the Des
Plaines
River
upstream
3
of
the
1-55
bridge.
4
MS. FRANZETTI:
I
think,
Counsel,
5
again,
just
for
clarity.
You
just
referred
6
to your
answer.
Did
you
mean
to
refer
to
7
your
report
that
is the
subject
of
counsel’s
8
question?
9
MR. SEEGERT:
Yes.
10
BY MS.
DIERS:
11
Q.
Does
that
include
parts
of
Brandon
12
Pool
also?
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
Prefiled
Question
101.
With
respect
15
to
balance,
what is,
and I’m
going
to
strike
future
16
and just
ask, what
is the
attainable
condition
of
17
the
fish
community
in
the Lower
Des
Plaines
River?
18
And
then
it’s also
asking
in the
Upper
Dresden
19
Island
Pool
and Lower
Des
Plaines
downstream
of
20
interstate
55 bridge.
21
MS. FRANZETTI:
Actually,
Counsel,
the
22
first
part
of
the
question
is
the Lower
Des
23
Plaines.
Would
-- Do
you
want
--
Wouldn’t
24
that
include
parts
of
what follows
after
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Page
37
1
their Latin
names.
2
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Anything
else?
3
MR.
SEEGERT:
Those
are
just
a couple
4
off
the
top
my head.
And, of course,
it
all
5
depends
on what
your
definition
of
an
6
intolerant
species is.
7
MR.
ETTINGER:
Does
the
rosyface
8
shiner
operate
in both
small
streams and
9
large
water
bodies?
10
MR.
SEEGERT:
It’s not
a
small
-— It’s
11
more
of
a medium—sized
stream
fish.
It’s
12
definitely
not
a
head
water
fish. It’s
not
a
13
big river
fish.
It’s
basically kind
of
a
14
medium
river
fish.
15
MR.
ETTINGER:
Okay.
You
also, I
just
16
wanted
to clarify on
this.
You said
there’s
17
not
enough hard
surface?
18
MR.
SEEGERT:
Hard
substrate.
19
MR.
ETTINGER:
What has
to be
hard
and
20
how big?
21
MR. SEEGERT:
Okay.
I
thought I had
22
covered
that.
But
technically
speaking,
hard
23
substrates
include moving
up in size
from
24
small
to large with
sand,
gravel,
cobble,
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Page 40
1
geology.
So
that would
be a
hard
surface,
2
would
it?
3
MR.
SEEGERT:
Right.
But
I
should
--
4
MR.
ETTINGER:
I’m sorry.
Go
ahead.
5
MR. SEEGERT:
No, it
is.
But
you
6
need,
when
you’re
doing
evaluation,
you asked
7
where
these
need
to be,
and
I
was
going
to
8
smartly
say in
the
water.
But
that
answer
9
actually
applies
here.
If
you
look
and
see
10
rocks
up
on the
shore
line,
if
they only
go a
11
foot
down from
the
shore,
extend
only
out a
12
foot,
they’re
not
going
to
be
of any
use.
So
13
it’s
a combination.
That’s
one
of
the
things
14
as
part
of the
QHEI,
you’re
looking
at
the
15
hard
substrates
that
are
in the
water
and how
16
much
of
the
zone,
the
area,
are
they
17
comprising.
18
MR.
ETTINGER:
But if
we
stood
on
that
19
rock
and
looked
down
and
saw other
rocks,
20
we’d
be
okay.
21
MR.
SEEGERT:
We
would be
okay --
22
Well,
first
of
all, the
rocks
have
to
not
be
23
irnbedded.
There
are
a
lot
of places
where
24
you can
have
rocks,
but there’s
so
much
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Page 47
1
that information.
2
Q.
Okay.
Thank
you.
Question
11,
and
3
this
is
going with
respect
to
Exhibit
2:
Did
you,
4
in
essence,
attempt
to
redo
the
UAAs
done
for
these
5
waters?
6
A.
I would
say
no.
We looked
at
-- we
7
certainly
looked
at
the
UAAs
that
had
been
already
8
done.
We
didn’t
want to
reinvent
the
wheel.
9
Q.
Have
you
performed
or
participated
in
10
other
UAAs?
11
A.
Personally
I’ve done
a
U]\A
for Brush
12
Wellman
which
is
a
company
in
Northwest
Ohio.
I
13
also
did
one
for
the
Coeur
d’Alene
Mining
14
Corporation.
That
was
done
at a
site
in the
upper
15
peninsula
of
Michigan.
And
then
we did
I call
them
16
portions
of
UAA5
for
two
other
sites
in Ohio:
One
17
for
BP
Chemical
and
one for
Malcolm
Pirnie,
which is
18
a
consulting
company.
And then
EA
staff
from other
19
offices
have
done UAAs
on
a
variety
of
sites
along
20
the
mid—Atlantic
coastal
area,
Maryland,
Virginia,
21
that
neck
of
the
woods.
22
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Counsel,
if
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Page 56
1
been talking
about
the UAA factors,
and I
2
sometimes
forget
that we’re
all very
familiar
3
with
this,
but someone
reading the
transcript
4
may not
be. The
UAA
factors
are the
factors
5
listed
in
40 CFR,
131.10, Subpart
G.
6
MS.
DIERS:
Correct.
7
MS.
FRANZETTI:
And,
Counsel, I think
8
Mr.
Seegert’s
answer
wound
up
answering
some
9
additional
subparts
of E.
10
MS.
DIERS:
That’s
what I
was looking
11
at. Thanks.
12
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Of 17E.
13
BY
MS. DIERS:
14
Q.
G, you state
on
Page 3 of
your
15
prefiled
testimony
that
similarly
low flow
16
regulation,
which is
controlled
by U.S.
Army Corps
17
of
Engineers, in
anticipation
of
flooding, can
also
18
adversely
affect fish
by exposing
fish
nest and
eggs
19
to ambient air
and
causing
stranding
in
shallow
20
areas which
leads
to
increased
predation
on fish.
21
Please
provide
an example
of
this
phenomenon
on
the
22
CAWS or Lower
Des
Plaines River.
23
A.
I’m sorry.
Are
you
on
G?
24
Q.
Yes.
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Page 63
1
pools along
the
edges
of
the Brandon tail
2
water
because of
these severe rapid
3
fluctuations.
4
BY
MS. DIERS:
5
Q.
So Question
22, how high
does
the
flow
6
need
to be
to cause these problems?
7
HEARING OFFICER
TIPSORD:
Excuse
me.
8
Just
for
the record,
21 is how high and
22 is
9
how
low.
10
MS.
DIERS:
Yes,
thank
you.
11
MS. FRANZETTI:
And we’re taking
how
12
high
first?
13
MS.
DIERS:
Yes.
14
MR. SEEGERT:
Well, I mean, again,
I
15
don’t think I
can give
you
an exact
number in
16
terms of
either level or flow.
That’s
not
17
how the
literature
frames this particular
18
question. And it
also has
to do
not
just
19
with the
absolute number,
but
how
rapid the
20
change is.
So
if there’s
a gradual
build-up
21
in flow
or
a
gradual
decline in flow,
you
22
might end
up at
the
same place. You
might
23
not end
up as
high
as you
would or
as low
as
24
you
would,
but it’s going
to be
much
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Page
72
1
of
magnitude higher
than
we see
in
this
2
system.
3
MR.
ETTINGER:
Is
the
Kankakee
4
impounded?
5
MR. SEEGERT:
The
Kankakee
has
--
I
6
believe
only
one
dam,
and
there’s
definitely
7
a
dam
at Wilmington.
8
MR.
ETTINGER:
Yes.
9
MR.
SEEGERT:
I
thought
there
was
one
10
up
at
Kankakee,
but
I
was
looking
at
a
map
11
and
I
couldn’t
find
it.
So
maybe
it
12
doesn’t
--
maybe
my
memory
is
foggy
on that.
13
MR.
ETTINGER:
I
think
we
were
trying
14
to
get
rid
of
it
years
ago.
15
MR.
SEEGERT:
I’ve
sampled
both
above
16
and
below
that
dam.
It’s
relatively low,
so
17
it’s
not
a
high
dam.
So
it
doesn’t
impound
18
very
much
of
the
waterway.
So
it’s
really
19
not having
much
of
an
effect.
I
mean
there
20
would
be a
small
negative
effect
immediately
21
upstream
in
the
dam,
but
if
you
look
at how
22
long
the
Kankakee is
from
when
it
enters,
23
just
talking
about
the
Illinois
portion
from
24
when
it
enters
from
Indiana
and
joins
the
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Page
79
1
2008?
2
A.
Well,
in
this
case
I should
—- and
3
I’ll
start
off
by
saying
in
2008
we
only
did Upper
4
Dresden
Island
Pool,
and it
turned
out
just
5
coincidentally
that
it was
also
70 percent,
exactly
6
the
same
number.
I
actually
had
to
go
back
because
7
when
I first
saw
that
and
I had
one of
my
guys
8
calculate
it
and said
are
you sure
this
is
right?
9
I’m
not talking
about
2003.
And it
turned
out
in
10
2008
it
was the
identical
number,
70 percent.
11
Q.
Twenty—nine:
What
extensive studies
12
are you
referring
to
on
Page
5
of your
prefiled
13
testimony
with respect
to
contaminated
sediments?
14
A.
These
would
be
the
various
studies
15
that
have
been
done by
Dr.
Burton.
16
Q.
And
are
all
those
studies
done
by
17
Dr.
Burton,
are
they
in
the record
or are
they
18
attached
to
Dr. Burton’s
testimony?
19
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Well,
at
least
the
20
2008
is
the
subject
of the
data,
on
the
21
reporting
the
data,
is
in
the
EA report
that
22
is
attached
to
Burton’s
prefiled
testimony
23
and
on
which
then
in
his testimony
in
his
24
report
he
relies
and
draws
conclusions
based
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Page
84
1
be constantly resuspended
within
the channel
2
due to
prop wash
and
all
these
waves
sloshing
3
back
and
forth
are going
to
keep
stirring
up
4
the
sediment.
So
I think
the
contaminated
5
sediment
are
going
to
continuously
be
6
reexposed. So given
that,
I
don’t
see
that
7
the
quality,
that
sediment
quality,
is
going
8
to
improve
appreciably
in the
future.
9
BY
MS.
DIERS:
10
Q.
And
would
that
answer
change
if
we
11
looked
at the
Brandon
Pool?
12
A.
Pardon?
13
Q.
Would
the
answer
change
if
we
looked
14
at Brandon
Pool?
15
A.
It
would
be
the same
answer.
16
Q.
Okay.
17
MR.
ETTINGER:
Would
the
answer
change
18
if
you
looked
at
the
Illinois
River?
19
MS.
FRANZETTI:
You
mean
are
there
20
sediments
improving in
the
Illinois
River?
21
MR.
ETTINGER:
Is
there
not
a
ton
of
22
sediment
coming
from
agriculture
in
the
23
Illinois
River?
24
MR.
SEEGERT:
Well,
remember,
there’s
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Page 97
1
streams?
2
A.
Yes.
3
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Counsel, if
I can,
4
just
for
clarity,
do you consider this
a
5
large
stream?
6
HEARING
OFFICER TIPSORD:
Which
7
“this”?
8
MS. FRANZETTI:
Let’s
say
Upper
9
Dresden Island Pool.
10
MR.
SEEGERT:
I don’t
consider it
a
11
large river,
no.
12
MS. FRANZETTI:
Same answer for
the
13
ship canal?
14
MR.
SEEGERT:
Yes.
From there on
up
15
it
gets progressively
smaller,
so.
16
MS. DIERS:
Forty-six. And I
guess
17
first is this
question for Greg
or should
18
we——
19
MS. FRANZETTI:
I’m sorry.
I’m
not
20
looking down.
46?
21
MS.
DIERS: We’re still
talking
about
22
sediment.
23
MS.
FRANZETTI:
He
can respond
to
24
this.
Thank
you
for
asking.
Page
98
1
MS. DIERS:
Forty—six,
explain
your
2
statement
on
Page 5
of your
prefiled
3
testimony
where
you state
that
deleterious
4
sedimentation
in
the
CAWS
is
both
5
unpreventable
and
irreversible
and
will
6
remain
a major
impediment
to
biological
7
improvements. What
makes
it
unpreventable?
8
I
guess
we can
start
there.
I
can
break
it
9
down.
10
THE WITNESS:
Okay.
To answer
those
11
first
two
questions
-—
12
MS. DIERS:
Unpreventable
and
13
irreversible?
14
MR.
SEEGERT:
Right.
Well,
no,
and
15
yeah,
unpreventable
and
-- much
of the
16
sediment
comes
from
nonpoint
sources.
And we
17
witnessed
a good
example
of that
during
our
18
recent
habitat
survey.
19
MS.
FRANZETTI:
What
year,
Greg?
20
Recent?
21
MR.
SEEGERT:
The
2008.
So
in
22
attachment
2B
for river
mile
82.5
right
bank,
23
that’s
how
it’s
labeled
in Attachment 2B,
24
that
photograph
shows
an
area, a
big
pile
of
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Page
101
1
HEARING
OFFICER
TIPSORD:
What’s
the
2
river
mile?
3
MR.
SEEGERT:
282.5
right
bank.
4
HEARING
OFFICER
TIPSORD:
Yes.
That
5
is, in
fact,
Page
19
as
I’m looking
at
it.
6
MS.
FRANZETTI:
We’ll
double-check.
7
We
have
a copy
right
here.
8
HEARING
OFFICER TIPSORD:
And it’s
9
labeled
construction
activities
adjacent
to
10
this
location.
11
MS. FRANZETTI:
Yes.
12
HEARING
OFFICER TIPSORD:
Thank
you.
13
MS.
WILLIAMS:
Do
you
know who
was
14
doing
this
construction
that
you’re
15
describing
in
this picture?
16
MR.
SEEGERT:
I’m
sorry?
17
MS. WILLIAMS:
Do
you
know who
was
18
doing
this
construction
in this
picture?
19
MR. SEEGERT:
No, I
do not.
20
MS.
WILLIAMS:
Did
you
call
the
EPA
21
when
you saw this?
22
MR.
SEEGERT:
No, we
did not.
23
MR. ETTINGER:
Are
you aware of
the
24
Phase 1
or Phase 2
storm
water?
Page 102
1
MR.
SEEGERT:
No,
I’m not.
2
MR.
ETTINGER:
Thank
you.
3
MS.
FRANZETTI:
For
clarification,
4
when
you were
talking
about
in
your
answer
5
the
nonpoint
source
pollution
due
to
the
6
amount
of
impervious area, that
was
a
7
separate
factor
that
we’re
talking
in
terms
8
of
the
source
of
the
sedimentation
or
9
sediments
entering
this waterway
from
this
10
factor
where
construction
activities go
on
11
because
of
development
in the
area of
this
12
waterway;
is
that
correct?
13
MR.
SEEGERT:
That’s
correct.
So
14
there’s
going
to
be
run-off
that’s
nonpoint
15
source.
I’m not
familiar
with
the
16
regulations
as
to
know
how this
is
regulated.
17
I look
at
this
and
say
water
coming
from
--
18
not
from
a —- not
in
the
way I
think
of
it
as
19
not
a point
source,
whether
it
is
regulated
20
or not
regulated,
whether
they
have
to
get a
21
permit
to
do this
or
not.
I’m
not familiar
22
with
that.
23
MR.
ETTINGER:
I think
we
can
go
on,
24
but
you’re
not
testifying
here
today
as an
Page
103
1
expert
in
the
Clean
Water
Act or
its
controls
2
over
any
form?
3
MS.
F’RANZETTI:
I
think
for
the
most
4
part
that’s
right,
Counsel,
except
that
I
5
would
say
that
from
his
work
on
the
UAA
6
factors,
that
I
think
he
could
qualify
as
an
7
expert
in
terms
of review
and
application
of
8
the
UAA
factors
to
this
waterway.
9
MR.
SEEGERT:
And
I
mean
I should,
10
since
you
brought
up
the
question,
there
are
11
parts
of
the
Clean
Water
Act
that
--
like
12
Sections
316A
and
316B
that
I would
consider
13
myself
an
expert
in.
14
MR.
ETTINGER:
Okay.
15
BY
MS.
DIERS:
16
Q.
I
think
we
did
the
unpreventable,
17
irreversible.
I’m
not
sure
if
we got
to
where
I
18
left
off.
Where
is
the
deleterious
sedimentation
19
coming
from?
20
A.
Well,
I
mean
I
believe
I’ve
answered
21
that.
My
response
would
be
from
various
impervious
22
areas,
it’s
coming
from
CSO5,
it’s
coming
from
the
23
kind
of
thing
referred
to
in
the
photographs.
So
24
it’s
kind
of
from
a
variety
of
sources,
all
of
which
Page
104
1
I
think
come
under
the
general
category
2
urbanization.
It’s
what
you
see
in an
urban
area.
3
You
have
a
lot
of
run-off.
4
Q.
I’m
going
strike
the
rest
of
the
5
question
and
go
to
47.
6
HEARING
OFFICER
TIPSORD:
Let’s
take
7
about
five
minutes
here
and
we
can
come
back
8
and
we’ll
shoot
for
going
until
9
5:00
o’clock.
10
(Short
break
taken.)
11
BY
MS.
DIERS:
12
Q.
I’m
going
to
strike
47,
48,
and
49
and
13
go
to
50.
14
MS.
FRANZETTI:
I’m
sorry.
I’m
going
15
to
be
a
bugaboo
here
just
on one.
I
think
it
16
would
be
helpful
to
have
it
as
part
of
17
Mr.
Seegert’s
testimony.
So
if
you
don’t
18
mind,
I
am
going
to
just
ask
one
part
of
your
19
Question
46
that
you
did
not
ask.
And
that
20
is
do
you
agree,
Mr.
Seegert,
that
the
21
deposition
of
new
sediments has
decreased
22
over
time?
23
MR.
5EEGERT:
Well,
we
partly
24
addressed
that.
And
when
I
said
I
didn’t
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Page 108
1
remove
——
move
the dam.
So as far
as
I’m concerned,
2
those
dams
are going
to have
to stay.
3
Q.
Just jumping
back
a second. When
we
4
were talking
about
the Fox
River,
do you
know how
5
many dams are
on the Fox
River?
6
A.
No,
I don’t.
7
Q.
I’m going
to
go
back
to
51.
You
8
testified
that the
Brandon
Pool is 100 percent
9
impounded and
the
Dresden
Pool is
93 percent
10
impounded.
Are
the upper and
lower Dresden
included
11
in
these figures,
and
where did
the figures
come
12
from?
13
A.
Okay.
For Dresden
Pool, the
14
93
percent, we talked
about
this
a
little
bit
15
before. Based
on
our estimates,
the upper
-— only
16
the upper
one
mile of Dresden
Pool,
and I’m
17
including
both upper
and lower,
that the pool
is
14
18
miles
long. Only
the
upper
part is free—flowing,
19
which means
13
miles
free—flowing,
divide
13
by
14
20
and
you get 93
percent.
21
With
regard
to Brandon Pool,
there
22
is
no tail water
below
the
Lockport Lock
and
Dam,
so
23
that’s 100
percent. The
Brandon
Pool is
only
about
24
five
miles long,
and it’s
all impounded.
Page 109
1
Q.
I’m
going
to strike
53
and
go to
54.
2
Have
you concluded
that
factor
5
applies
throughout
3
the
CAWS and
Lower Des
Plaines?
4
MS.
FRANZETTI:
And
now
for
this
5
question,
Lower
Des
Plaines
——
6
MS.
DIERS:
I had
-- I was going
to
7
ask
him
to
clarify
the Lower Des
Plaines
8
area.
9
MS.
FRANZETTI:
All
right.
I think
10
when
you were applying
factor
5,
weren’t
you
11
looking
at
55?
So
first clarify
that.
12
MR. SEEGERT:
Well,
for factor
5, the
13
areas
that we
looked
at, we talked
about
this
14
at
the very,
very
beginning
of
this
15
afternoon’s
session
was I’m
talking
about the
16
south
branch,
the Chicago
River, all
of
17
the
-- all of
the ship
canal and
all of
the
18
Lower
Des Plaines
River
which
includes
four
19
miles
of Brandon
Pool
and
eight
miles of
20
Upper
Dresden
Island Pool.
So
within
the
21
areas
I’ve
just
mentioned,
factor
5 applies.
22
BY MS.
DIERS:
23
Q.
I’m
going
to
skip
55.
24
A.
They would
all apply
to
Brandon
Pool
Page 110
1
because
it
has the
same
limitations
as
the rest
of
2
the
ship
canal.
3
Q.
And
56,
did
you
rely
on
any
data
to
4
conclude
that factor
5 is applicable?
5
A.
As
I believe
was
mentioned
earlier,
we
6
collected
QHEI
data
in
previous
years.
I think
‘93,
7
‘94,
2003,
and
then most
recently
in
2008.
So all
8
of that
information
is information that we
relied
9
upon.
10
Q.
And then
did
you
compare
this
data
to
11
other
impounded
rivers?
12
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Counsel,
I’m
not sure.
13
Did
he compare
the
QHEI
data
from
Upper
14
Dresden
Island
Pool
and Ship
Canal
to other
15
rivers
for
what
purpose?
16
MS.
DIERS:
I’m sorry.
Can
you
say
17
that
again?
I lost
my
train
of
thought.
18
MS. FRANZETTI:
I’m
not
following
the
19
question.
Because
he talked
about
relying
on
20
QHEI
data from
three
separate
efforts,
I’ll
21
call
them,
‘93,
‘94, 2003,
2008.
And
then
22
you
said
did
you
compare
that
QHEI
data
to
23
other
rivers.
And
I’m not
sure
where
that
24
goes.
Page
111
1
MS.
DIERS:
I
meant other
impounded
2
rivers.
I
don’t
know
if
that
helps
clarify
3
my
question.
4
MS. FRANZETTI:
For
what
purpose?
To
5
see
if the
QHEI
values
were
comparable
as
6
between
ship
canal,
Upper
Dresden
Island
7
Pool,
and
some
other
impounded
river?
8
MS. DIERS:
Yes.
I think
that’s
-—
9
MS.
FRANZETTI:
The answer
may
be
no,
10
he didn’t
do
any comparison,
but
I’m
just
not
11
sure.
12
MR.
SEEGERT:
Well,
the
question
13
isn’t
——
or looking
at
other
impounded
rivers
14
isn’t
relevant.
It’s
not
what
the
question
15
is.
The
question
is
relative
to
habitat
in
16
rivers,
free—flowing
rivers,
how
does
this
17
stack
up?
If
you
would
do
what
you’re
18
implying
is you’d
say,
how does
the crappy
19
habitat
in
this
system
compare
to
crappy
20
habitat
in
other
systems?
That’s
not
what
21
the
QHEI
is designed
to do.
It’s
designed
to
22
establish
basically
a
reference
condition
and
23
say
in
a reference
condition
you
have
a
24
variety
of
physical
constraints,
and
you
want
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Page
114
1
which
do
or do
not attain
Clean
Water
Act
2
goals
because
nobody
has
looked.
3
MS.
WILLIAMS:
Nobody
has looked?
4
MR.
SEEGERT:
Nobody
has
looked.
5
MS.
WILLIAMS:
Do
you
believe
that
all
6
impounded
rivers
are
unable
to
attain
Clean
7
Water
Act
water
life
use
goals?
8
MS.
FRANZETTI:
I
don’t
think
that’s
9
what
he
said.
10
MS.
WILLIAMS:
No.
That’s
my
11
question.
12
MR.
SEEGERT:
I didn’t
say that.
But
13
I
said
in
Illinois
no
one
has
looked.
I’m
14
not
aware
of
a
UAA
that’s
been
done
on
15
another
medium
to
large
river
in
Illinois.
16
HEARING
OFFICER
TIPSORD:
Mr.
Seegert,
17
isn’t
it true
you
would
only
do
a
UAA
18
analysis
if you
were demonstrating
that
it’s
19
not
a
fishable
stream?
Isn’t
that
correct?
20
I mean
isn’t
that
when
you do
a
UAA is
to
try
21
and
——
you
can’t
meet
fishable
swim
rule,
so
22
you
do
a
UAA to
see what
you
can
meet?
Isn’t
23
that correct?
So
if
it’s
already
24
fishable/swimmable,
then
nobody
would
do
a
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MR. SEEGERT: It’s within roughly
the
lower one mile.
Unfortunately, Mr. Vondruska
is not
here. He could give
you
chapter and
verse,
but
I know we have two locations in
the extreme lower
part of the Kankakee. But
sitting here
today,
I can’t
say
exactly
where
they
are.
MS. FRANZETTI: And also referred
to
at times
as
the impaired water
study.
MR. SEEGERT:
I
guess the answer --
the answer is I’m
aware of them. I wouldn’t
say
I’m familiar
with them.
MS.
WILLIAMS:
Is it your
Page
117
1
MR.
ETTINGER:
And where did
you
look
2
at
that?
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
MS. WILLIAMS:
I
need
to get
back
to
11
this idea that
no one has looked
at
the
other
12
impounded rivers. Is that okay?
13
MR. SEEGERT:
Sure.
14
MS.
WILLIAMS: Are
you
familiar with
15
the
305(b) report and the
303(d)
list?
16
MS. FRANZETTI:
Which year.
17
MS. WILLIAMS:
The concept of such
a
18
report.
19
20
21
22
23
24
Page 118
1
understanding
that
as part of that
process,
2
the Agency
assesses
the waters
of the
State
3
for attainment
of the
Clean Water
Act goals?
4
MR.
SEEGERT:
My
--
5
MS.
FRANZETTI:
If
you
have
an
6
understanding
of what they
do.
7
MR.
SEEGERT:
Again, my
as
I
8
understand
it,
they
go
through
a
process,
but
9
it’s not very
detailed.
It’s
kind of high
10
altitude.
They’re
not
going
to
it
to
the
11
level
that
you
would
do
for
a
real
use
12
attainability
study.
13
MS.
WILLIAMS:
Do
you
know if any
14
impounded
rivers
in
Illinois
are
assessed
as
15
attaining
Clean Water
Act goals?
16
MR.
SEEGERT:
I don’t.
17
MS. FRANZETTI:
Wait,
Counsel.
18
Clarification.
Are you
asking whether
the
19
Agency has
assessed
those waters
using
the
20
UAA
factors
or no?
21
MS. WILLIAMS:
No,
I’m
not.
No.
I’m
22
not
asking
about that.
23
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Just
separate and
24
apart
from
that?
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Page 127
1
Dresden Island
Pool?
For
example, could
restoration
2
of littoral
areas
increase
habitat
heterogeneity
and
3
create
habitat that
could support
some
of the
4
species
associated
with
waters
that attain the
Clean
5
Water Act
aquatic-life
goal?
6
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Did
you purposely
drop
7
the minimally
attained?
8
MS. DIERS:
I
don’t
like that
word,
9
but--
10
MS.
FRANZETTI:
No.
That’s
why I’m
11
asking,
because
the
witness has
some
issues,
12
too,
with what the
heck
does
that
mean.
13
MS.
DIERS:
I don’t
like that word,
14
so.
15
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Okay.
Fine.
So
16
you’re
not
asking it with
the
minimally,
just
17
water that
has attained
the
Clean Water
Act
18
goals.
19
MS.
WILLIAMS:
I like it
better
than
20
marginally.
21
MR.
SEEGERT:
Okay.
Well, first
of
22
all,
what would
limited
restoration
consist
23
of?
Give
me some
examples.
24
MS. DIERS:
I thought
the
second part
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Page 129
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
indicated
that
in Upper
Dresden
Pool,
according
to
your
definition,
you
want
to
see
all
the species,
you
want
to
see
not only
tolerant,
not only
moderately
tolerant,
you
want
to see
intolerant
species.
Those
intolerant
species,
most
of them,
a
disproportionate
number
of
them,
need and
inhabit
riffle
areas.
If
you
don’t have
riffle
areas,
you’re
not
going to
bring
that
part
of the
fish
community.
So
enhancing
things
along
the
shore
line,
yes,
you
might
have
more
bass
and
you
might
have
more
blue gills,
but
you’re
not
going
to get
the
balanced
fish
community
that
you’re
saying
is
part
of your
definition.
MR.
ETTINGER:
Only God
can
make
a
in
17
riffle?
18
19
Counsel
20
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Objection
to
form,
21
MR.
ETTINGER:
a riffle?
22
23
24
Is
it
possible
to
make
MR.
SEEGERT:
In
a
system
that’s
--
with the
lack
of
gradient,
I don’t
know.
assume
engineers
could
do it
if
you
gave
them
Page
130
1
enough money,
infinite
time and money
they
2
probably
could
construct
a
riffle.
3
MR.
ETTINGER:
But
you’ve
never been
4
involved
in the
construction
of
a
riffle
and
5
you
don’t know
how much
it would
cost?
6
MR. SEEGERT:
I’ve
been involved
in
7
small stream
restoration,
have in
idea what
8
they
cost, and
given the size
of this
system,
9
again,
you’re
talking
about
major,
major
10
dollars
here.
11
MR.
ETTINGER:
Well, what
do you mean
12
by
major,
major
dollars?
13
MR.
SEEGERT:
Pardon?
14
MR. ETTINGER:
What
do you
mean
by
15
major,
major dollars?
16
MR. SEEGERT:
I think
we’re
talking
at
17
least in
the tens of
millions,
probably the
18
hundreds
of
millions, and
that’s even
if
it
19
could
be done. Again,
given
-- you only
have
20
so
much gradient
to
work
from. Basically
you
21
have
to
raise the
water
up,
shoot
it down
22
through
a
riffle.
I don’t
know that this
23
even could
be done.
Maybe there’s
some
24
massive
engineering
project
that
could
be,
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Page
132
1
millions
of dollars,
if
it can
be done
at
2
all.
3
MS.
WILLIAMS:
I’m
trying
to
4
understand,
Mr. Seegert,
didn’t
you
testify
5
earlier
that
you
don’t
know whether
the Lower
6
Des Plaines
River
would
have
riffles
in
the
7
absence
of the
impoundments? Is that
what
8
you testified
earlier,
Greg?
If
the dams
9
were
gone,
do
you
know
if there
would
have
10
been
riffles
or not?
11
HEARING
OFFICER
TIPSORD:
I
believe
he
12
you compared
it with
the
Kankakee.
13
MR.
SEEGERT:
Well,
what
I said
was
I
14
would
expect
that
if
a
14—mile
section
that
15
you
probably
would
have
a
riffle
based
on
the
16
riffle
distant
sequence
that
I’ve
seen
in
17
other
areas.
And
then
one
of you
followed
up
18
and
said, well,
what
about
in Upper
Dresden
19
Pool.
And
at
that
point
I said,
well,
I’m
20
not sure
within
upper,
just
in
Upper
Dresden
21
Pool
whether
there
would
or
would
not
be.
22
MS.
WILLIAMS:
Because
it’s very
low
23
grading,
correct?
24
MR. SEEGERT:
Well,
again,
I’m not
Page
133
1
sure
of
the
exact
—— it’s
low grading.
I
2
don’t
know if
it’s very
low
grading.
3
MS.
WILLIAMS:
Would
you
expect
that
a
4
low
gradient
river
of
the size
of Upper
5
Dresden
Island,
you
know,
size
meaning
not
6
the length
Upper
Dresden
Island
Pool,
but
7
that
size
of
a
river,
would
have
different
8
fish
assemblages
than
a
high
gradient
river?
9
MR.
SEEGERT:
Well,
you’d
have
to
10
be ——
Again,
now, we’re
talking
about
low
11
versus
high,
and
I don’t
know
what
you
mean
12
by
low
or high.
13
MS.
WILLIAMS:
I want
to understand
if
14
it’s
necessary
to
have high
gradient
and
lots
15
of
riffles
to
attain
Clean Water
Act
goals
in
16
your
opinion.
17
MR. SEEGERT:
Well,
let
me try
to
18
answer
it
a
different
way.
Because
that
--
19
MS.
FRANZETTI:
I would
say,
Counsel,
20
that
he
has
answered
that
question.
21
MS.
WILLIAMS:
Well,
I
don’t
22
understand.
23
MS.
PRANZETTI:
In his
prior
testimony
24
with
respect
to the
Missouri,
for
example.
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Page
136
1
should
be asking
the questions,
and
2
particularly
given the
hour.
I let it
go a
3
little
bit,
but
now
I’m going
to
object.
4
MS.
WILLIAMS:
That’s
fine.
5
MR. ETTINGER:
So can I
just
ask
would
6
you modify
the
Ohio
habitat method
that
we’re
7
talking
about
so
that if
there
was
no riffle
8
there
should
be
a
zero
habitat
score?
9
MR. SEEGERT:
I’m
sorry?
Did
EA
10
change that?
11
MR.
ETTINGER:
I’m
just
asking
would
12
you --
13
MS.
FRANZETTI:
He’s asking
you
14
hypothetically.
15
MR.
ETTINGER:
Hypothetically
if
you
16
were going
to
use the Ohio
model and
you
17
found
-—
you were going
to
look
at
this
18
system
and
you
found
that
there was no
riffle
19
in
a system,
you
would
then automatically
20
assign
it
a subfishable
swimmable category?
21
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Objection
to
the
22
extent
if
you
are
characterizing
his
23
testimony.
So
I
don’t
think
you
are proper
24
when
you’re
characterizing
it.
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it
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Page
139
1
A.
Okay.
Let’s
--
2
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Counsel,
just
for the
3
record,
he’s
going
to,
I
think,
try
and
4
explain
this in
a
bit
more detail.
But what
5
the
average
is
will
vary
somewhat
from
6
company
to
company
that
did
the
QHEI.
7
MS.
DIERS:
Okay.
8
MS.
FRANZETTI:
So
I think
you’ll
try
9
and
explain
that
in
a
little
more
detail
10
giving
the average
--
I’m
sorry
—- giving
the
11
high
and
the
low.
12
MR. SEEGERT:
Okay.
In
Lockport
Pool
13
in
1993,
two companies
scored
the
QHEI.
The
14
company
I
represent,
EA,
was
one
of those.
15
Our
average
score
in
Lockport
Pool was
44,
16
and the
other
company,
their
average
score
17
was
a
42.
The
range
of
scores
that
EA
18
reported
was
from
31.5
to
57.5.
The other
19
company
had
a
little
bit tighter
range.
They
20
went
from
35 to
49.
And
the
other
company
21
was
——
at that
time
it
was ESE,
and
I can’t
22
even
remember
what that
acronym
stands
for.
23
They’re
out
of
St. Louis.
They
have
a
24
different
name
now.
I believe
it’s
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Page
142
1
42
to 68.
And then
still in
Dresden
Pool,
2
but
now
in
1994,
we have
four
companies.
EA
3
reported an
average
of
55
with
the range
of
4
40
to 69;
ESE,
those
numbers
I erroneously
5
gave,
40
now
for
1994, it’s 48
with the
range
6
of
39
to 68;
and the other
company
LMS in
7
1994 for
Dresden Pool
had an
average of
49
8
with
a
range
of 42
to
56.
So
everyone in
9
Dresden
Pool
using
the QHEI
that prevailed
at
10
that
time was
scoring
right around
50, a
11
little
plus,
a
little minus,
but right
around
12
50. And
the occasional
higher
scores,
13
meaning
60 or above,
were
consistently
14
associated
with
either
the Brandon
tail
15
waters
or
the
tributary mouth
locations.
16
BY MS. DIERS:
17
Q.
Sixty-one:
Are the
habitat
data
18
collected
by
the
EPA Engineering
in 1993-1994
part
19
of the Lower
Des Plaines
UAA report
and the
record
20
of this
proceeding?
And then
what
about
the
data
21
collected
in 2003?
22
MR.
SEEGERT:
Those,
according
to
23
what
-- Mr. Vondruska
looked this
up.
And
24
according
to
what he told
me,
those
data
were
Page 143
1
provided
as
part
of
Exhibit
36.
2
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Nope.
I
don’t
think
3
so.
4
MR.
SEEGERT:
I
guess
--
5
MS. FRANZETTI:
Give
us
a
second,
6
Counsel.
7
MS.
WILLIAMS:
Do
you
want
to
come
8
back
to
this one
tomorrow?
9
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Unless
this
is wrong,
10
but the
exhibit
list
for this
—— I think
36
11
is meeting
minutes
from
the Lower
Des
Plaines
12
work.
13
MR.
SULSKI:
Would
it
be
Exhibit
30,
14
this?
15
HEARING
OFFICER
TIPSORD:
No.
That’s
16
the
Army
Corps
of
Engineers
map.
17
MR.
SULSKI:
All
the scores
were
on
18
here.
19
MS.
FRANZETTI:
We
believe,
now
I’m
20
not
sure
about
these
other
two
companies,
but
21
at
least
the
EA in
‘93/’94
sampling
QHEI
22
scores,
I think
that
was included
in
23
Exhibit
32.
That’s
entitled
Qualitative
24
Habitat
Evaluation
Index
Scores
in
the
Upper
Page 144
1
Dresden
Island
Pool
and
Des Plaines
River.
2
Remember
that
——
I’ve
got a
piece
of
it here.
3
MR.
SEEGERT:
I believe
Mr.
Essig
4
prepared
that.
5
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Do
you
remember?
It’s
6
hard for
us
to say
what’s
included
with
7
things
you
did,
but
it
does
reference
some EA
8
QHEI
information
from
the
‘93
and
‘94
time
9
period.
It may
not
cover each
one
of
these
10
pools:
Lockport,
Brandon,
and
Dresden
in
11
that
exhibit.
We’re
not
sure just
what
was
12
used.
13
MS. DIERS:
Do
you
know
if
the
‘93/’94
14
is it
in
Attachment
A?
15
MS. FRANZETTI:
Excuse
me?
16
MS.
DIERS:
The
‘93/’94
data
I’m
17
asking
about,
do
you
know
is it
in
Attachment
18
A, the
UAA
report?
19
MS. FRANZETTI:
Oh,
is it
in -—
I
20
don’t
know
off the
top
of
my
head.
That’s
21
what you’re
referencing
here
in
your
22
Exhibit
32.
23
MS.
DIERS:
That’s
what we’re
24
thinking.
We’re
just
trying
to --
Page 145
1
MS.
FRANZETTI:
I
don’t
think either
2
Greg or I
could
say
off
the
top
of
our
heads.
3
It’s
been
too long
to look
at the
UAA report
4
attachments.
5
HEARING
OFFICER
TIPSORD:
I read it
6
every
night before
I
go to
bed.
7
MS.
DIERS:
And we
talk
about
2003.
8
Is it in the
record?
9
MS.
FRANZETTI:
I’m sorry?
10
MS. DIERS:
Is
2003,
that
data,
is
11
that in the
record?
12
MS. FRANZETTI:
It
is referenced
in
13
Mr.
Seegert’s
report,
and
to some extent
in
14
his
actual
testimony,
Exhibit
366, and
his
15
report
that is
attached
to
the Exhibit
366.
16
If
your
question
is asking
are
the actual,
17
you know, scoring
sheets.
18
MS.
DIERS:
Right.
19
MS. FRANZETTI:
No.
I don’t
believe
20
the
scoring
sheets themselves
are in the
21
record.
22
MS.
DIERS:
Okay.
23
24
BY
MS. DIERS:
NJ
NJ
NJ
NJ
NJ
F-
I-
H
H-’
I-’
I-’
I—’
H
H’
W
NJ
H’
0
CD
a)
—J
a)
01
U)
NJ
H’
0
co
a)
—J
cy
Ui
w
NJ
H-’
h-h
D
CD
C)
Ct
CD
Cl)
c-h
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Page
148
1
you’d
need
to
have
about
50
percent
or
more
be good
2
habitat,
and,
in this
case,
we’re
talking
about
less
3
than
10 percent
being
good
habitat.
So
we’re
well
4
below
what
I believe
is
an appropriate
cut—off.
5
Q.
I’ll
strike
67.
What
cover
scores
6
average
in the
Upper
Dresden
Pool?
This
is 68,
the
7
second
part of
it.
8
MS.
FRANZETTI:
You’re
asking
the
9
second
question
in
68?
10
MS.
DIERS:
Yes.
What
do
cover
scores
11
average
in the
Upper
Dresden
Pool.
12
MR.
SEEGERT:
The
cover
scores
in
13
Upper
Dresden
Pool
in 2008
range
from
4
to
14
15,
but
most
sites
scored
between
8
and 12.
15
So,
you know,
probably
the
overall
average
16
would
be
around
10.
17
BY
MS.
DIERS:
18
Q.
So is
cover
a
limiting
factor
in the
19
Upper
Dresden
Pool,
getting
back
to
the
first
part
20
of
the question?
21
A.
I would
say
that cover
is one
of
the
22
contributing
factors
to
lower
QHEI scores
in
Upper
23
Dresden
Pool.
24
Q.
I’m
going
to
go
on
to
69.
Do
you
have
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Page
150
1
MEMBER
RAO:
You thought
you’d
save
2
100
for tomorrow?
3
HEARING
OFFICER
TIPSORD:
You
know
4
what,
why
don’t
we
go
ahead and
call
it
a
5
day.
It’s ten
to
5:00,
and
you’re
obviously
6
looking
at striking
some
more
questions.
7
MS. DIERS:
Thank
you.
8
HEARING
OFFICER
TIPSORD:
It
might
be
9
more
comfortable
to
do
that
in
your hotel
10
room
tonight.
9:00 o’clock
tomorrow
morning,
11
same
room.
12
(At which
time
the
13
hearing
was
continued
to
14
November
10,
2009,
at
15
9:00
a.m.)
16
*
*
* * *
*
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Page 151
1
STATE
OF
ILLINOIS
SS.
2
COUNTY
OF
COOK
3
4
I, LAURA MUKAHIRN,
being
a
Certified
5
Shorthand
Reporter
doing
business
in the City of
6
Chicago,
Illinois, County
of
Cook, certify
that
I
7
reported
in
shorthand
the
proceedings
had
at
the
8
foregoing
hearing
of the
above-entitled
cause.
And
9
I certify
that
the foregoing
is
a
true and
correct
10
transcript
of all my
shorthand
notes
so
taken
as
11
aforesaid
and
contains
all the
proceedings had
at
12
the said meeting
of
the
above—entitled
cause.
13
14
15
1’)
l
4
jJ
16
LAURA
MUKAHIRN,
CSR
CSR
NO.
084—003592
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Page
152
A
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amounts
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58:2
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78:14
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analysis
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126:7
110:4
7:12,20
132:17
118:2
45:23 46:16
126:16
application
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137:22
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133:18
5:18 44:6
16:7 19:12
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43:5
125:1
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10:4
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analyzed
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assimilate
analyzing
5:1 answers
32:11,17
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32:10
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ANDREA
anticipation
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100:22
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Antonio
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10:3
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assemblages
attachments
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76:1486:21
32:11,17
138:12,23
79:2280:1
10:1453:21
109:3
86:2487:4
33:1,8,10
140:18
80:4
96:1,22
certainl5:22
87:10
112:5
37:839:8
141:9,17
business
112:24
67:18
68:24
characteriz...
43:15
58:13
142:14
151:5
capacity5:7
69:21
86:23
58:7 147:7
72:15
81:5
144:10
116:2
characterize
Page
156
121:8
clarifyl2:7
19:10
comfortable
111:19
48:1479:24
characteriz...
12:14
14:1
closer77:12
150:9
compared
106:11
95:1
37:16
109:7 coastal47:20
coming
70:12
132:12
condition
characteriz...
109:11
coating95:15
84:22
85:3
141:6
30:16
50:10
136:22,24
111:2
cobble28:6
102:17
comparison
69:20,23
charts 149:10
clarifying
33:3
37:24
103:19,22
111:10
70:2 91:7
149:12
14:2447:23
Codel:5
103:22
147:2
91:12
checked
87:2
clarity
14:5
Coeur
47:13
commencing
completely
111:22,23
checkmarks
25:12
30:5
coincident...
1:14
51:22
99:10
134:13
86:23
97:4
79:5
commercial
complex
conditions
Chemical
class
65:9
collect
11:13
99:7
123:9
19:1
32:1,3
47:17
126:4,11,12
collected
committee
component
34:18
44:10
Chicago
1:4
134:17
7:15 11:1
46:21
66:24
51:1,4,6,18
1:132:14
classes95:1,3
17:120:17
common
123:18
54:2255:11
4:11
10:12
classification
21:824:8
86:17
137:17,18
58:3,10
13:20
14:6
62:988:4,5
36:1544:15
Conunonw...
components
66:2091:17
18:443:6
90:2135:19
44:1680:10
4:6
50:13
112:15
44:1
45:11
149:3
94:3 110:6
communities
composition
conduct48:5
48:19,24,24
classified
131:19
105:22
7:12 89:19
48:18
49:6,17,20
42:21
105:6
142:18,21
community
comprise
conducted
54:1,2
149:13
collecting
21:426:14
135:5
44:17
69:1482:11
clays8l:19
5:13
26:1729:21
comprising
119:16
107:15
clean
10:15
collection
5:1
30:17 34:24
40:17
confined
109:16
33:1
49:18
collections
50:14
70:5
concentrated
57:10
151:6
49:21
50:1
4:18 19:17
71:1,15,16
23:2424:11
confused
chicken
50:453:21
19:1944:19
71:23
concept
46:19
115:3
60:7 69:17
collective
122:19
117:17
confusing
chief7:4
71:13,21
122:2
129:10,14
conceptually
80:3
children
94:8
83:19
91:22 collectively
commute
126:13
conjunction
chose8l:12
96:1,14,22
61:21
16:11
concerned
5:18
chub
36:14
103:1,11
124:24
companies
93:12
connected
36:20
112:24
Colorado
68:11 92:2
106:13
15:4,6,13
124:17
113:5
114:1
131:5,7
139:13
108:1
connection
chubs 124:17
114:6
column4l:8
140:19
conclude
15:9
124:22
115:10
Com9:6,8
141:10
50:24
57:12
consensus
churned
116:1,24
combination
142:2
59:2
107:14
46:4
66:12
118:3,15
40:13
143:20
110:4
consequen...
cfrculation
119:3
combined
company
112:14
20:11
60:12
120:10
19:17
47:12,18
concluded
consider
citation
127:4,17
come69:1
139:6,6,14
48:11
10:11,20
149:1
133:15
70:17
78:12
139:16,19
105:24
11:3,7
cited26:2
135:20
82:24 83:4
139:20
109:2
52:16
64:19
67:13
146:7147:9
100:13
140:21
concluding
91:1292:6
citiesl6:4
clear3l:1
104:1,7
141:12
115:8
97:4,10
city 131:4
cient5:18
108:11
142:6
conclusion
103:12
151:5
clogs6o:13
115:17
comparable
69:278:12
106:17
clarification
close
48:7
143:7
111:5
86:16
92:9
considerable
80:5
82:14
82:3
122:5
comes
13:2,5
compare
92:10
33:18 34:6
102:3
closely
18:13
59:16 71:9
110:10,13
conclusions
considerably
118:18
18:2019:4
98:16100:8
110:22
46:1348:12
36:5121:11
Page
157
18:24 42:12
continuously
22:13
43:12
107:3,16,22
122:15
107:12
84:5
counsel
cracks 13:24
108:2,5
138:4
146:22
contractor
13:1114:22
crappy
126:24
decide
consist
140:13
25:11 30:4
111:18,19
132:8
125:13
127:22
contractors
30:21 34:17
create
127:3
Danger
decided
80:7
consistent
140:3,16
38:1147:22
crew7:6
113:16
113:19
26:13
51:22
contribute
47:24
56:7
crews 57:5
darter
8:2
decision 17:2
52:11
55:14
82:1393:22
66:275:17
27:571:23
17:6
consistently
contributes
97:3
103:4
criteria
89:3
darters
41:12
decline
63:21
142:13
61:19
110:12
89:9
68:23
decreased
constant
contributing
118:17
CSO 83:2
data 5:1,2,8
104:21
65:11
148:22
129:19
CSOs92:17
9:23 10:4
decreasing
constantly
contributio...
133:19
103:22
10:24 11:4
105:16
84:1
92:17
135:23
CSR1:10
11:6,6,14
deep38:13
constraints
controll:1,9
137:2
139:2
151:16,16
16:19,19,24
62:21,21
111:24
2:6 61:10
143:6
current
17:1,4
default
113:7
construct
85:11
99:20
Counselor
81:21,22
19:18 20:13
defme7l:4
130:2
controlled
8:22
82:3,5
20:13,18
94:19
construction
56:16
counsel’s
currently
21:8
24:4,7
defmed
39:7
100:21
controls
30:7
50:17119:6
24:8,13,16
41:2377:22
101:9,14,18
103:1
country
cutoff
147:15
24:19,21,23
115:10
102:10
conversely
123:6
149:2
44:9,12,14
137:23
130:4
64:5 147:22
counts
41:22
cut-off
148:4
44:14,16
defining
8:14
consultant
Cookl:11
137:6
cyclel7:18
45:1948:12
8:1686:2
48:6
85:12151:2
Countyl:11
39:12
57:158:16
defmitely
consulting
151:6
85:12
151:2
65:20 79:20
37:12
72:6
47:18
copy8o:21
151:6
D
79:21
80:23
defmitiou
contains
101:7
couple23:4
D54:13
92:9110:3
26:15
35:19
151:11
core6l:10,11
27:14
37:3
daml3:6
110:6,10,13
37:5 124:10
contamina...
62:17
38:18
64:2
24:4,22
110:20,22
129:2,15
81:18
Corporation
83:12
34:461:11
112:13
135:15,17
contaminat...
47:14
course37:4
70:18,18
138:17
135:21
11:10
20:16
Corps
56:16
44:13
68:7
72:6,7,16
142:17,20
deformities
22:1
33:10
68:10
107:9
72:17,21
142:24
35:23
33:12
52:1
143:16
140:24
732,3,4,9
144:16
deleterious
52:1 67:4
correct3:4
court5l:13
73:13,21,23
145:10
98:3
103:18
79:13 81:15
8:2145:17
cover33:7
73:23 74:3
database
DELT35:22
83:20
84:4
53:23
56:6
82:15,17
74:8,19,20
19:21 20:13
35:22
36:2
85:15,19
58:762:7
94:13
75:9,13
date26:1
50:22
51:20
93:16,19
100:18
112:17
76:20 82:3
dated45:16
51:24
contaminat...
102:12,13
121:19
106:1,14,17
day
1:13
demonstrate
93:2
114:19,23
128:7
144:9
106:24
150:5
53:20
contentl46:3
119:18
148:5,10,12
107:5,18
days64:2
demonstrat...
context
132:23
148:18,21
108:1,22
83:12
114:18
106:23
151:9
covered
116:11,19
deal74:17,18
138:14
continue
cost
11:11
37:22 55:21
damn
16:10
dealing53:6
Dennison
50:18
20:2222:6
55:22
damsl0:22
82:20
124:5
6:12
107:19
22:11
130:5 covering
34:1,8,10
DEBORAH
depend65:18
continued
130:8
43:10
5513
74:9
2:9
92:2
122:23
150:13
costs2l:5
covers34:6
74:11
107:1
decent
122:24
Page
158
89:24
101:15
56:10,13
138:22
divide 108:19
doubt7l:15
depends 37:5
desiccated
57:23
58:1
139:24
divided 13:7
down 19:4
38:1742:7
57:14
63:4,10,13
differentiat...
88:23
25:1331:3
deposited
design 61:8
65:19
68:15
95:20
document
32:2
34:5
60:9
83:11
designation
75:2,5
differently
20:659:6
40:11,19
93:18
9:23 86:18
78:10 81:14
18:3,12
61:15,15
41:8 70:19
deposition
86:19
82:17 84:9
dilute 23:21
documented
70:19 97:20
58:20
59:23
designations
85:14 90:4
direct5:24
59:3
105:20
98:9 115:5
70:3
104:21
10:7 89:5
94:1,5,16
34:3
106:10
130:21
depositional
designed
94:17 96:5
directed
30:1 doing 6:7,16
135:18
95:16
11:320:1
96:16 97:16
direction
20:12 23:14
downstate
depthll2:17
111:21,21
97:21 98:1
52:1592:22
40:645:23
100:12
derived
detail46:12
98:12
directly4:17
46:16
52:5
downstream
138:11
54:20139:4
103:15
48:2052:14
66:1775:15
23:624:4
Desl:46:3
139:9
104:11
71:8
95:3,799:6
24:21
29:23
6:19 8:6,15 detailed
105:17
dirt99:1
101:14,18
30:19
31:16
9:24
11:18
118:9
109:6,22
disagree
106:21
85:17,21
11:2012:18
119:21
110:16
55:18
119:16
Dr2:56:12
13:2,5
14:8
determmat...
111:1,8
discharge
149:9 151:5
20:19
67:5
14:18
15:4
120:5
120:24
52:4
dollars 22:18
79:15,17,18
15:6,12
determine
126:20,21
discharges
130:10,12
80:1,4,6,11
16:123:11
45:670:15
127:8,13,24
51:2,5
130:15
93:9,21,23
23:1229:21
determined
135:9138:8
discounted
132:1
94:1,15
29:23 30:2
43:22
139:7
54:18
dominance
128:6
30:17,19,22
determining
142:16
134:23
35:1 50:18
drainage
31:1643:7
10:1445:7
144:13,16
discuss6:21
51:19
131:20
44:1,11
121:19,24
144:23
discussion
dominated
draw25:4
45:12 56:22
development
145:7,10,18
49:5,7
26:9126:4
drawing45:2
58:5,10,12
99:7,8
145:22,24
disdain8:24
done5:16,17
draws79:24
58:14
66:18
102:11
146:13
displacement
7:22 8:12
Dresden
4:8
69:15
71:20
107:8
148:10,17
58:18
18:2 19:8
10:13
13:21
76:13,22
deviatel25:4
149:22
disproporti...
19:2420:2
14:10
18:5
77:1278:3
DEXTER
150:7
129:7
22:2425:15
19:1622:15
86:12
109:3
65:4
differl2l:15
distant
44:20,21
23:5,16
109:5,7,18
Diers2:10
difference
132:16
45:15
47:4
24:4,21
121:8,10
3:19,21
4:4
19:2021:3
distinction
47:8,11,14
30:18
31:4
132:6
8:79:1,19
36:1661:6
16:225:3
47:1967:14
31:6,8,12
142:19
12:21
13:19
74:2
33:11
68:3,10
32:3,14
143:11
16:1518:1
differences
134:10
70:1574:4
33:9,17,22
144:1
26:5 28:22
15:19 18:9
distinguish
79:15,16
35:15,19
describe
28:23 29:5
different
89:3
88:11 93:1
36:4,6
58:1087:18
29:12,18
5:17 13:9
district6:13
93:796:12
39:1448:20
87:19
30:1031:5
19:252:15
6:1618:15
114:14
49:1,750:3
described
31:14
32:8
59:8,20
44:16 85:11
116:3
119:2
54:273:6,7
43:2045:14
34:2041:16
88:18,24
District’s
130:19,23
73:9,13,18
57:6
42:1743:3
89:23
90:3
6:14
132:1
134:5
73:20,22,24
describes
48:15 51:12
112:22
diverse7l:23
140:24
74:3,7,8,20
87:17
52:6
53:14
124:8,23
122:18
141:7
76:4,20
describing
53:15,16
133:7,18
diversity
double-che...
77:19 78:17
58:2 61:16
55:24
56:6
137:21
121:20
101:6
78:21
79:4
Page 159
82:1286:13
9:2,4,810:3
68:1270:4
35:691:21
53:3
Essig2:11
86:1690:6
10:24 17:5
70:1072:19
eliminating
environment
17:481:6
90:992:8
20:1643:11
72:2083:17
91:24
92:12
144:3
97:9 107:16
45:4 47:18
128:6
employed 9:2 environme...
establish
108:9,10,13
57:458:24
effective
enable
2:791:9
85:11
108:16
66:2,17
107:4
123:23
envision66:9
111:22
109:20
79:21 80:2
effects
10:20
encompass
eons
83:17
119:20
110:14
80:681:6
10:22
11:8
55:3
EPA3:22
established
111:6
92:24 136:9
19:6,11
encompasses
10:11,16
36:19
112:22
139:14,17
25:14
58:24
76:4
16:18,20,22
147:15
116:15,19
142:2
59:4,6,9,12
encountered
25:20 41:24 estimates
125:19,21
143:21
59:2260:19
70:3
44:855:20
108:15
127:1
129:1
144:7
61:2,15,24
end7:542:5
88:23 99:19 estimating
132:18,20
each48:10
62:266:5
63:22,23
101:20
22:14
133:5,6
48:14
107:2
105:22
95:24
105:20
Ettinger4:5
135:10
121:2
122:6
107:20
122:13
115:17,17
11:15,22
138:12,23
144:9
EFFLUENT endangered
141:3
14:24 15:7
141:17,18
earlier 6:16
1:3
7:18 8:1
142:18
15:14 16:9
141:19
45:1947:23
effortl9:21
ended7:17
EPA’s4:1
16:14
17:8
142:1,7,9
55:557:2
23:20,22
23:14
9:1248:21
21:10,16
144:1,10
80:1,11,22
81:7
engage8l:8
53:18 54:7
22:4,19
146:6,16,21
82:2 105:4
efforts23:24
engaged9:21
149:2
24:2,12,17
147:3,4,13
110:5 132:5
85:10
engineering
EPA-spons...
24:20
25:1
148:6,11,13
132:8
110:20
17:5 130:24
6:9
25:5,10
148:19,23
early4:10
egg 115:3
142:18
ephemeral
26:19 27:23
149:4
5:21
53:6
eggs 56:18
engineers
54:21
28:2,13,17
drew45:18
66:16
58:2060:2
56:1768:10 equallyss:20
28:2135:9
46:24
easier32:12
60:9,10
129:24
equate 147:9
36:7,24
driven89:18
65:17
eight22:16
143:16
equivalent
37:7,15,19
89:19
East2:7
23:2 109:19 enhance
3
1:9,21
38:8,13
drop57:4
easylo7:17
131:5,7
126:24
Eriel34:21
39:13,17,24
81:21 127:6
113:13,13
either 14:8
enhancing
erosions
40:4,18
dropping
eat35:4
28:735:5
129:11
35:23
41:13
52:16
13:24 57:7
echo26:14
43:24
55:8
enough 18:18 erroneously
52:20
53:9
drops64:5,9
ecological
63:16 68:2
28:6
36:15
142:4
53:13
60:4
70:17
106:23
68:2078:7
37:17
120:4
errors20:4
60:15
64:21
due
84:2
economic
90:11 95:17
123:23
113:3
65:3,5
67:7
102:5
92:1
142:14
130:1 138:3 escape23:1
67:12
68:9
105:22
ecoregion
145:1
entering
ESE 139:21
71:2,5 72:3
during5:9
134:13,14
149:13
102:9
140:10,22
72:8,13
64:16,18
Ed9:6,8
electric9:5
enters72:22
141:21
73:4,9,15
81:6 98:17
edge39:4
electrofishi...
72:24
142:4
73:22 74:19
d’Alene
99:1
4:18
entire66:19
ESNE141:23
75:1,776:1
47:13
edges38:21
elevated36:2
78:3 116:22 especially
80:14
84:17
63:1
95:14
36:6
entitled
57:8 81:24
84:21
85:9
E
Edison
4:6
elevation
143:23
essence 47:4
87:6 88:2,6
E2:1,1 54:20
effectl0:19
75:12
entrained
48:1
88:8 99:23
56:9
18:22,23
elevations
52:23 53:4
essentially
100:2
EA4:95:4
53:7,10
76:16
entrainment
35:17 83:18
101:23
5:227:58:8
67:968:12
eliminated
52:1753:1
95:1299:18
102:2,23
Page
160
103:14
everywhere
46:18
47:3
explanation
148:18
93:11 96:14
116:5,8,14
134:24
48:2258:9
112:12
factorsl0:5
106:12,18
116:18
evidence
106:2
143:1
exposing
32:19,20
108:1
117:1
122:5
52:14
53:2
143:10,13
56:18
34:2,13
121:15
123:22
76:21
93:12
143:23
extend40:11
43:6,20,23
125:4
129:16,20
93:17
105:3
144:11,22
41:8
43:23
44:5
fast32:20
130:3,11,14
exact22:12
145:14,15
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44:645:8
39:1,7
131:9,11,14
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66:13
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131:16
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93:16140:6
79:11.93:4
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136:5,11,15
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existence
105:19,23
50:13
52:2
128:14
137:1,5,9
117:8
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extensively
53:19,24
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137:15
Examination
expect26:21
19:6
54:4,8
56:1
features
138:7
3:18
27:6,7,17
extent55:9
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112:16
evaluating
examine
54:7
27:20,23
81:24
82:1
59:12
69:7
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26:18
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59:4,10
93:4136:22
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evaluation
21:23 36:3
61:23
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145:13
103:8
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99:11
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36:13,14
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extrapolated
106:16
99:12
40:695:4
56:21
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68:5
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143:24
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extreme
118:20
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122:14
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117:7
121:19,19
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123:2,3
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extremely
137:6
35:1
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32:18
127:1
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expectation
36:1
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10:17,18,20
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expectations
fact
18:16
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examples
124:7,7,24
20:23
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83:2
120:18
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121:11,13
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59:23
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50:459:10
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33:24
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Fifty-seven
events59:14
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experience
52:13,17
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62:564:20
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54:11,13,18
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excessive
45:359:1
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eventually
33:1387:12
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excluding
experienced
58:3,4,11
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103:1
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familiarity
fmd36:11
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8:1321:19
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119:21,22
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102:7,10
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everything
3:1617:3
107:14
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16:2345:9
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139:4,9
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explained
112:14
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100:14
Page 161
fme69:13
65:10,16
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42:1847:22
16:6,617:5
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121:20
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Forty-six
87:8 93:22
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129:10,14
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97:19,23
83:1684:22
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92:17,17,24
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101:11
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103:3
102:9,17,18
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123:10
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13:4
104:14
103:5,19,21
69:22
70:1
114:19,21
fluctuation
54:1,4
109:4,9
103:22,22
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fishable/sw...
33:1857:12
55:16,18,19
110:12,18
103:24
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114:24
61:2,19
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111:4,9
106:8,13,14
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fluctuations
95:2109:18
113:13,16
107:5,16
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fisheries
6:5
10:21
19:2
138:17
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127:21
67:10
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110:13,20
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60:20,24
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118:5,17,23
125:4,5,6,9
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50:19
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106:6
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149:11
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frames
63:17
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139:8 143:2
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42:22
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144:5,15,19
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12:3,6
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functionally
37:14 38:3
104:7
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13:11,23
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14:4,15,19
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functioned
39:1050:14
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112:11
24:15,18,23
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52:2053:4
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fix 128:22
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free-flowing
functions
57:8,8
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99:15
29:10,15
108:18,19
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58:18,19
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30:4,21
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60:6,8
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34:17
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64:11,13,18
56:17
126:23
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15:15,17
99:14
Page
162
further
21:19
124:21
148:24
64:11
65:15
60:11
81:7
groups
35:8
126:2,3
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150:4
66:11
68:1
98:17
35:1050:21
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18:1323:14
goal96:15
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106:15
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84:8
46:18
64:6
127:5
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guess
12:13
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goals9:24
70:4,9,10
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20:321:21
G
148:19
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gifinetting
49:22
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112:24
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guessing
99:9
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guidance
Gen9:4
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116:2,24
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112:8113:1
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8:5 10:17
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goes
13:5,6
109:1,6,23
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generally
136:2
64:3
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67:11
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gradual
28:4,11,18
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131:11
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63:20,21
31:2041:11
106:15,24
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129:9,13
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31:5,23
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52:1
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34:11
36:22
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135:20,23
gravel
37:24
69:4,9
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40:4,10
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generating
43:4
53:13
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Generation
59:17
61:8
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124:11,12
121:12
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62:2079:6
26:10,12
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28:7,24
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90:14 100:2
30:15
31:15
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126:8
45:15,21
102:10,23
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Greg3:4,13
127:2,3
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48:18
104:5,13
34:11
39:2
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14:1 32:12
136:6,8
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13720
geographic
108:7109:1
40:1247:3
99:12
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138:14,20
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113:20
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50:7
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142:17
geographic...
115:20
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52:12
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57:16
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135:18
58:1559:19
11:626:11
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136:2138:7
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26:1439:5
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97:15 100:8
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148:2,3
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61:2363:24
46:950:14
141:4
149:14
Page
163
habitats
144:20
55:8
59:13
36:14,21
130:7
impediment
121:4,18
heads 145:2
59:14,15
hotell5O:9
identical
98:6
half
23:22
healthy
61:13
62:4
hour 1:14
79:10
105:8
impervious
handll:2
94:22
63:5,8,12
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identified
92:16 100:7
36:22,23
hear
8:4
63:23 64:15
hours
62:18
46:24
102:6
107:7
116:16
64:2065:9
64:2
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103:21
handle
65:16
heard 6:16
65:16
72:17
HOWARD
IEPA 3:17
implied
94:9
99:22
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74:11
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55:5 128:4
100:6
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20:19
134:18
133:8,11,12
122:20
16:20,22
111:18
hang 124:19
hearing
1:8
133:14
human
91:7
III
1:5
important
happen
2:23:1,11
134:9,16
91:12,17
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27:460:5
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human-can...
1:12,132:5
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66:767:19
39:1553:14
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140:23
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hundred
3:224:16:5
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96:24
57:2163:7
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72:1773:13
happened
97:6 100:16
68:16,19
hundreds
7:18,24
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52:2264:16
100:20
69:1672:1
22:18
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happens34:4
101:1,4,8
76:1877:6
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101:12
122:8,8
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23:3,13
87:20
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114:16
highest
15:9
24:18,20,24
107:19
hard
28:6
123:19
138:21
hydraulica...
48:21
68:11
108:9,10,24
33:1,2,5
126:20
highlighted
15:12
71:1772:23
110:11
37:17,18,19
132:11
49:10
hydraulics
73:1
74:23
111:1,7,13
37:2238:7
143:15
highlylo:22
59:19
77:1684:18
112:3,9,23
38:24
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145:5
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35:1
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84:20,23
113:5,24
40:1,15
149:20
41:21
42:1
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114:6
61:1866:9
150:3,8,13
50:1951:20
hydrologic
106:1,20,21
115:23
69:17
151:8
65:11
70:7
55:13
113:1,5,6
116:6,22
123:11
hearings
92:11,13
hydrologist
113:24
117:12
144:6
43:18
96:14
85:23
114:13,15
118:14
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122:10
hydrosite
115:11,13
119:5
harmful
heckl27:12
himl3:12
61:6
115:22
120:15
65:24
131:21
31:3
77:23
hydrosites
118:14
impounding
hatch60:10
heldl:7
99:24109:7
60:22
119:5120:8
19:673:5,6
hatched
hell 64:7
113:17
hypothetical
151:1,6
73:23
75:10
58:19
help
78:12
119:4
77:1
imbedded
75:21 76:20
hatching
128:3
146:3
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hypothetic...
40:23
105:22
60:14
helpful
45:15,21
136:14,15
immediately
impoundm...
hate2l:10
104:16
46:22
hypoxis
72:20
19:11
25:14
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historical
124:17
116:10
115:24
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111:2
24:7
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impoundm...
72:19
heterogene...
history 53:6
impacts
105:24
115:12
127:2
86:9
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105:21
106:9132:7
121:15
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hit68:1,5
120:18
106:8
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131:19
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107:14
74:3,8
head 37:4,12
high
18:24
hopefully
75
impaired
improve
69:4
74:680:17
38:1450:22
29:1
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117:20
82:984:8
88:23
51:20
55:4
hornyhead
117:11
120:9
91:21
Page
164
128:19
indictment
126:1
90:992:8
just7:1 11:8
136:5,11
improveme...
115:13
intolerant
97:9
107:16
11:16 12:3
139:2
98:7
indifferent
35:13,16,16
109:20
16:10 19:13
141:15
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113:10
36:937:6
110:14
21:1624:7
144:11,24
84:20
indigenous
41:17 42:4
111:6
25:11 28:24 justify
48:12
inaccurate
26:16,17
42:4,5,12
112:22
29:10,16
20:13
individual
42:14,21,23
116:15,19
30:5,5,16
K
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115:20
42:24
43:1
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31:1,1,5,17
Kankakee
17:429:22
individually
50:2168:21
125:20,21
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129:6
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144:1
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Islands
41:5 44:24
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147:13
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included
infmite 130:1
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47:22 49:14
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information
investigated
62:24,24
51:7,9,10
73:19 74:2
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52:2,10
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127:11
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27:12,13
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5:24
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72:2374:5
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35:3 50:20
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109:18
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inquiry 92:5
irreversible
1-5523:6
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including
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92:8
98:5
30:3
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103:17
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increase
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10:13
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99:15,20
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increased
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8:4
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68:7
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22:1623:16
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15:10
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31:8,13
2014
107:9108:3
37:1346:9
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Indiana
interpretat...
33:9,22
JOHNSON
111:10
99:8 103:23
59:12 62:9
20:18
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112:6
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36:5,6
joins72:24
115:11
118:9
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118:23
120:13
indicated
interstate
50:354:3
17:928:24
121:4,5
122:10,20
129:1
29:23 30:20
73:21,22
29:12 146:8
123:12
123:16
indicates
31:16
74:7 76:21
jumping
127:16
124:14,15
70:12
intervening
77:19
78:21
108:3
128:20
137:24
indication
122:19
79:4
82:12
juncture
132:20
138:2
146:5
intolerance
86:13,16
92:19
134:16
147:23
Page
165
kinds 17:23
lack68:12
least20:16
65:24
90:3
116:13
99:19
59:9125:22
87:11,12,13
42:1971:24
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120:3
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142:11,11
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134:21
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53:22
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35:23
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99:7101:13
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128:21
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113:10,22
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119:3
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138:11
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24:4,22
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74:7108:22
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60:16
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Lockport4:8
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138:12,22
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60:3
139:12,15
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Page
166
108:18,24
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massive
26:16133:5
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101:5
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MATTER
meant24:23
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Matusky
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107:2
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124:13
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120:9
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48:772:11
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95:2
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44:7 mean 4:2
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114:2,3,4
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116:5,21,23
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142:23
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127:12
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7:6
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7:2418:3
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131:18
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Maryland
146:9149:5
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46:1556:10
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47:20
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Page 167
25:15 34:2
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41:944:18
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126:20
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18:20 19:10
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121:12
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37:1145:8
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76:2,4
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98:22 101:2
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108:24
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19:8
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95:19122:8
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122:16
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135:17
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148:1 150:6
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6:1 9:3,11
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134:22
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35:3
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52:13
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141:3 149:4
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Mountains
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107:4
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months
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negatively
Page
168
70:10
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November
150:5
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140:23
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11:14
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87:788:4
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136:16
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80:8
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140:20
31:4,7,18
reviewed5:7
107:13
70:9112:2
remain98:6
141:19,21
32:1343:8
6:22,23
109:9115:2
135:1
remaining
142:3151:7
47:354:23
43:2244:4
125:17
region26:14
121:5
reporter
66:15
79:13
44:5,9,12
131:4
regular99:17
remediation
51:14 151:5
80:12
95:23
44:20,22
142:10,11
regularly
11:12 20:22
reporting
133:24
reviewer 5:5
145:18
4:16 6:4
21:6,11,15
79:21
respond
reviews
rigorous
regulated
21:20,23
reports4:24
97:23
44:19
120:4
102:16,19
22:3
44:23,24
147:19
rid72:14
riparian
102:20
remedied
represent
responding
riffle
39:6,7
92:13
regulation
91:18
26:1129:22
31:2
71:1277:8
risk64:12
56:16
remember
125:22
response
77:13 95:11
riverl:5
4:11
regulations
67:20
84:24
139:14
61:12
121:2,11,14
5:20,21,24
8:19 26:18
139:22
representat...
103:21
121:22
7:21,21,22
83:14
144:2,5
17:23
35:8
responses
122:2,5,15
8:9 12:18
102:16
removal
50:20
51:1952:3
122:17,23
19:923:3
regulatory
21:24 69:3
representat...
61:3
123:8,10
23:11 24:18
9:13,15
93:5106:1
26:11
restl04:4
128:19
24:21,24
13:8
14:10
106:15
represented
110:1
129:8,9,17
25:7,13
44:4
remove34:9
27:4,21,22
123:24
129:21
28:14,16,19
reinvent47:8
69:591:9
35:12
124:23
130:2,4,22
29:23
30:2
48:2
91:15
reproduction restoration
132:15,16
30:17 37:13
reinventing
107:18
64:2369:18
11:1220:22
136:7,18
37:1439:4
48:7
108:1
reproductive
21:7,20
137:16,23
39:5,19
Page
173
42:20
44:2
115:15
24:1,5
sand8:233:4
scored
66:10,20,22
44:1145:11
117:12
43:1358:17
33:637:24
139:13
67:1,1,4,24
46:3,3,15
118:14
65:21
38:1
148:14
69:5 70:16
48:24 49:6
119:5
121:2
rules 48:21
sanding
scores 78:14
80:12 81:19
49:17 54:2
121:3,10,13
53:18
54:7
62:15
112:21
82:20 83:4
56:2258:10
122:7123:5
83:1499:21
sanitary
115:1
83:5,11
58:1259:11
124:11,13
run88:16
10:1213:21
138:11,13
84:4,5,7,22
62:367:15
134:14,17
121:2,12,14
14:618:4
139:17
85:1,2,5,6
68:4,11
135:3,5
121:23
43:748:19
140:11
93:2,3,4,6
71:3,673:1
Roadl3:6
122:3,6
49:1,6,20
141:6
93:11,18
73:1,14
138:12,23
138:1,3,4
49:20
54:1
142:12
94:19,24
76:12,13,22
ROBERT
runoff 92:18
69:14
82:11
143:17,22
95:5 97:22
77:10,13,15
2:10
runs70:18
107:15
143:24
98:16 100:8
78:4 84:18
rock7:21
run-off
147:3
146:5,11,15
100:13
84:20,23
28:6
38:20
102:14
Santucci
146:22
105:11,13
85:488:13
40:1941:10
104:3
25:22
148:5,10,12
123:24
97:11
98:22
64:9 77:15
R08-09
1:3
satisfied 10:6
148:22
sedimentat...
99:1 100:23
112:1 115:8
81:11
149:15
11:8 60:18
101:2
rocks
39:3,21
S
satisfy45:12
scoring
70:23
71:22
105:19
40:10,19,22
s2:171:24
69:8
142:10
78:13,19,24
106:6
40:2441:2
sake29:1
savel50:1
145:17,20
92:793:5
107:10
41:760:5,7
salable78:11
saw40:19
147:19
93:1498:4
108:4,5
60:10,13
same5:22
52:362:2
SCOTT2:11
102:8
109:16,18
Rockyl34:8
8:1712:17
79:7101:21
scoured
103:18
111:7112:1
role4:137:3
26:1632:19
106:10
99:10
sediments
112:2,4,6
room 1:12
43:17 46:5
saying22:9
scouring
33:10,12
112:23
113:15
46:11
54:4
71:879:3
70:13
66:1569:4
114:15
150:10,11
57:1362:23
91:795:24
season68:8
69:14,20,23
115:9
116:4 roseyface
63:22 69:20
115:6
seasonality
70:1
79:13
121:8,9,13
36:13
70:22,24
119:16
64:14
81:16 82:9
122:15
rosyface
73:4,23
122:1 125:3
second 18:5,8
84:20
85:16
123:5,13,14
36:21 37:7
79:6
82:23
125:7
126:1
26:20
29:10
85:20
92:20
123:17
roughly
83:384:15
126:12
87:891:13
93:1695:18
124:8,17,21
22:1376:4
89:997:12
129:15
106:12
102:9
124:22
88:22117:3
110:1
saysl3:13
108:3
104:21
128:12
122:16
141:10
23:8
39:19
127:24
see5:12
131:6,7,11
123:2
150:11
50:7147:19
143:5148:7
18:2222:6
132:6
133:4 round23:9
sample8l:12
scale 131:1
148:9
26:21,22
133:7,8
round-bodi...
sampled
schedule
section 5:23
27:1,6,6,7
134:11
27:12,15
71:1172:15
61:13
13:499:15
40:951:3
144:1
35:1141:22
78:1580:8
school94:8
132:14
52:1862:20
rivers 6:23
ROY 2:12
8L3
scientific
Sections
65:11 70:24
77:16
rubble33:3
samples
115:7
103:12
72:1 75:12
110:11,15
38:1
80:1094:3
122:12
sediment
78:583:21
110:23
rule 14:20
sampling
scope92:5
11:8,9,9,10
84:6
95:14
111:2,13,16
52:7114:21
19:1481:13
scorel36:8
20:15,16,17
95:17104:2
111:16
rulemaking
121:2
139:15,16
21:922:1
111:5113:9
112:8,9
1:3 8:20
143:21
140:7
44:1852:2
114:22
113:5,6
12:2423:4
Sanl3l:4,10
141:14
58:1959:23
124:16,18
114:6
23:18,23
131:12
146:19
60:13
66:1
124:18
Page
174
128:9
129:2
101:22
121:2,23
85:19
showing
105:7
129:3,5
102:1,13
122:6
shallow
58:17
61:1
148:14
135:3
103:9
138:22
56:1957:13
65:21
sittingll7:8
141:13
104:20,23
seining4:19
95:16
shows29:13
situation
149:12
109:12
self-sustain...
128:14
98:24
45:2 107:2
Seegert3:4,5
111:12
86:5,7
sheets 145:17
SHUNDAR
six 19:16
3:5,13,20
113:2,18
senior5:5
145:20
2:5
23:242:8
4:7
7:9
8:21
114:4,12,16
sense2l:23
shiner8:2
side77:10
43:6
53:19
11:19,24
115:2116:7
23:19
36:1337:8
81:16,23
53:2454:7
12:814:2
116:10,21
125:18
shipl0:13
87:2,399:4
54:11
14:13,16,21
117:3,13,21
126:13
12:14,17
significant
Sixteen50:24
15:5,8,16
118:4,7,16
135:7
13:21 14:7
10:22
92:1
Sixty-five
16:12,16
120:2,11
146:23
14:7,17
92:17
146:4
17:15
21:14
122:7
separate48:5
18:4
23:15
105:20
Sixty-one
21:17,21
123:20
80:21
102:7
43:7,24
significantly
142:17
22:9,22
124:1,4
106:4
44:1045:10
112:22
size37:23
24:625:9
125:15
110:20
48:2049:1
silt60:12
38:586:5
25:1926:23
127:21
118:23
49:6,21
70:3,11
93:6121:10
28:1,3,15
128:4
separately
54:1 66:17
81:2095:8
121:13
28:2030:9
129:22
32:7
69:1571:19
95:10,12,13
123:17
31:832:16
130:6,13,16
sequence
82:1197:13
95:1699:11
130:8
34:21 36:12
131:10,13
132:16
107:15
99:12
131:18,24
36:22 37:3
131:15,17
sequences
109:17
siltation
133:4,5,7
37:10,18,21
132:4,13,24
121:14
110:2,14
33:13
34:6
Skellyl4O:5
38:15
39:23
133:9,17
series
112:7
111:6 147:4
41:1
70:8
skill4S:3
40:3,5,21
134:4
149:10
sholel23:9,9
70:2371:3
skip49:13
42:2048:8
135:12
servel07:4
shootl04:8
71:687:12
109:23
51:1752:18
136:9137:8
session
130:21
87:23
149:23
52:24
53:12
137:14,16
109:15
shore
38:22
silty
69:13,20
sloshing 84:2
63:14
65:1
139:12
set 10:24
40:10,11
69:22
slow4l:6
65:6 67:13
142:22
11:6,7
95:19
similar22:13
70:19
68:13
71:4
143:4 144:3
44:14,14
128:12
76:13
140:9
slowly
64:3,5
71:772:5,9
146:11
89:17
129:11
similarly
slows34:5
72:15
73:8
148:12
124:23
shoreline
55:12 56:15
70:19
73:11,17
Seegert’s
126:10,14
38:12
59:22
smalll6:4
74:1,22
56:8104:17
126:15
short8:16
simple60:3,7
17:1923:21
75:11
76:2
145:13
setsl49:9
38:1642:23
60:16
37:8,10,24
76:11,15
seeing3:16
setting89:12
57:2077:3
since4:99:4
38:1941:10
77:3 78:8
70:23
settle 82:6
104:10
12:16
29:2
42:2,3
57:8
81:2
82:18
seems9:17
settles70:20
126:23
46:1053:5
62:23
72:20
84:24
85:13
52:9
several6:3
shortcomin...
103:10
73:374:4
87:988:5,7
seen5l:19
35:850:20
18:17
106:5
81:1988:14
88:10 89:6
58:24
61:24
severe32:18
shorthand
single33:24
92:14
89:1193:24
62:15,23
33:1646:6
151:5,7,10
sinuosity
115:24
94:1296:3
66:6,6
63:278:13
shortly9:5
87:12
130:7131:3
97:10,14
93:12
78:18,24
9:14
site47:14
131:3
98:14,21
132:16
95:2,21
shoulder5:6
62:1299:13
smallerll:6
100:5,16,19
sees 62:18
105:7
show
67:16
sites
47:16,19
16:1
17:12
100:23
segments
severely
115:15
60:22
90:5
17:17
97:15
101:3,16,19
24:1
112:8
60:17
85:15
149:16
90:8 105:5
123:15
Page
175
smailmouth
someone
4:10 12:15
specifically
stated 45:22
88:17,23
68:24
54:11
56:3
12:1644:1
7:23 9:12
58:6146:23
94:2295:5
smartly4o:8
106:16
45:1148:24
46:259:5
statement
95:13 97:5
Smogor2:12
something
49:5,16
66:24 93:23
50:798:2
114:19
81:5
21:5
31:21
54:2
109:16
specimens
149:1,7
130:7
Society6:5
35:338:19
spaced77:9
7:6
statesll5:12
149:15
solution
42:18
60:5
spaces 41:1
spectrum
115:13,14
streams
92:20
61:1083:17
60:9
42:5
115:18
17:1337:8
solve 92:23
105:3
sparse
33:7,8
speed 29:1
134:7
69:24 87:7
some 8:1
119:12
spatial
18:14
81:21
138:10
87:10 89:23
11:24
15:22
121:24
18:21
spend
49:8
Station
4:12
90:1
95:24
16:3,4,18
147:16
spawn39:2
sponsored
stations9:6
96:7,10,18
17:11,12
sometimes
60:986:10
25:20
18:2023:2
96:20,21
20:24 27:1
14:9 18:18
spawning
spots 123:23
23:5,9,10
97:1
149:12
27:5,19
56:264:22
28:8,11,18
spreadl23:2
23:15,15
Streetl:12
28:1534:22
somewhat
33:1438:2
spring64:18
stay8l:20
2:13
41:944:8
139:5 147:5
69:17
Springfield
108:2
strength
44:15 45:18
somewhere
speakl5:2
2:8
Steel8:12
65:10
46:7,12
21:12
26:2
91:4
SS
151:1
Stephanie
strengthen
50:15
53:1
96:11
speaking
St123:8
2:10
3:21
128:20
53:556:8
113:19
33:5
37:22
139:23
stffl4:23
stress6l:20
57:2 59:15
sorry4:4
77:20
stacklll:17
23:18
36:5
stressors
60:4 65:13
11:15
17:8
species7:12
stacks 112:4
69:683:2
61:17
65:16
68:22
22:424:2
7:14,188:1
staff
47:18
83:15
94:7
stretches
69:19
70:5
29:12
39:19
17:16,21
stages
17:12
97:21
138:17
75:20 80:5
40:4 56:23
26:10 27:1
17:13
53:7
107:20
strict83:15
82:1 83:1,9
65:1 75:4,7
27:5,14,20
stakeholder
123:17,18
strike
30:15
88:12,14
76:1
85:18
33:14 35:13
43:14
128:21
31:15
57:16
93:1095:9
90:2196:19
35:16,17
standard
142:1
58:1567:18
95:2096:10
97:19 100:2
36:937:6
5:1961:3
stir66:9
86:1
90:14
99:6,8,11
101:16
38:18,24
standards
stirred67:24
90:14
95:22
111:7
104:14
41:9,18,21
1:3
6:10
stirring
104:4,12
113:11
106:19
42:1,8
91:1,4
65:24
84:3
109:1 138:9
115:16,21
110:16
46:10
50:21 standpoint
stood40:18
141:22
120:17
123:20
50:22 59:15
106:14,14
stop 15:14,16
146:1 148:5
121:3,11
136:9
59:2460:14
stands67:22
41:2121:5
149:17,18
123:13
139:10
60:1765:13
139:22
stopped99:3
strikes96:13
126:23
141:22
65:13,17,18
start3:3,17
storm85:11
striking
127:3,11,23
145:9
68:20,21,21
79:398:8
101:24
149:19
128:4,7
sort5:5 16:2
69:16,21
146:3,9
stranded
150:6
130:23
48:10
80:9
86:12 89:14 starts75:21
57:9
64:10
strong
137:22
99:6,20
89:15,19,23
state 1:11
stranding
128:18
138:4 144:7
147:19
121:20
7:23 19:15
56:19
146:5
145:13
source9l:7
126:9127:4
19:2229:20 strategy
stronger4:15
150:6
92:1899:22
129:3,5,6
53:1856:14
65:14
structure
somebody
102:5,8,15
138:5
78:7
83:16
streaml7:17
20:24
113:10,18
102:19
specific
98:3105:18
33:1937:11 structured
115:5140:7
sources98:16
16:1925:18
118:2
86:21 87:1
113:8,20
somehow
103:24
66:21
93:7
120:14,17
87:1,5,18
structures
59:18,20
south2:13
105:2
135:1 151:1
88:1,1,12
22:5,7
Page
176
stuck62:24
56:9
80:2
11:16,17
87:22
120:15,16
studied
4:10
subsequent
support
28:7
12:2,13,17
108:22
124:9
5:207:19
45:20
92:9127:3
17:2418:23
142:14
128:11
19:1171:2
subsetl7:19
135:16
19:1
22:10
146:18
130:9,16
119:7
substrate
146:7
26:2127:16
takel0:23
131:21,23
studies4:13
28:633:5
147:12
27:19,24
23:2032:13
131:24
6:67:17,23
37:1838:2
supporting
28:4,12,16
41:1355:6
133:10
19:15,23
69:17
91:23
34:15
35:6
57:18 58:24
134:7
136:7
20:244:17
112:17
123:15
36:342:9
64:4,20
140:2
44:2066:13
substrates
surell:17
42:1644:13
93:6104:6
147:18
66:17,21,21
33:2,2
27:979:8
50:1653:4
107:9
148:2
66:2267:9
37:2338:7
94:14
54:1655:7
128:11
talks55:1
67:1468:3
38:9,14
103:17
58:23 59:20
takenl:10
94:23
68:10,14
39:1,8
106:21
61:17,20
57:20
TANNER
70:1579:11
40:15
110:12,23
62:970:16
104:10
2:2
79:14,16
123:11
111:11
72:281:23
151:10
TARP82:24
80:1881:9
success59:13
115:21
83:485:17
taking22:5
92:21
92:24 93:7
successfully
117:13
85:22 87:1
23:22
63:11
tasks48:17
96:12
60:11
86:10
119:19
87:15,18,19 talk
145:7
team94:11
105:19,23
sucker27:13
132:20
93:199:16
talkedl2:10
Techl4O:1
106:7131:2
27:1441:17
133:1
100:8
16:1843:17
technically
study5:15,22
41:2242:10
143:20
107:22
62:1682:2
33:537:22
8:11
19:8
suckers
144:11
111:19
85:20
techniques
21:11
22:6
27:12,15
surface
6:9
112:1
107:20
6:24
22:2423:7
35:1142:6
37:1740:1
124:14,15
108:14
tee87:18
25:13,15,16
42:8,9
100:7
125:4,7,14
109:13
tell 13:12
25:20 61:8
sudden64:8
137:24
129:22
110:19
25:16
31:2
71:4
80:1,2 sufficient
surprised
130:8
134:18
temperature
80:6,12,21
53:20
69:8
120:12
131:17
149:23
5:19
89:3
113:8
70:13 146:7
survey 11:4
135:3,15,19
talking
11:18
89:12,17
117:20
suffocate
98:18
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118:12
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surveys
137:5,10,11
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44:17,21
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7:22
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113:17
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77:1485:12
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subfishable
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131:4,23
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subfishable...
143:13,17
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summarize
64:13
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72:23 74:9
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ten-minute
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summarizing
3:10
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96:20
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submittals
24:7
synergistic...
135:24
100:21
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61:21
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102:4,7
terms
11:9
Subpart56:5
64:19
systeml:4
62:1463:1
108:4
13:2414:6
subparts
supervised
10:23
11:13
75:19 76:3
109:15
18:11
33:24
Page
177
51:1763:16
47:263:10
122:22
124:6
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145:5
82:15 83:5
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124:16
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testified
101:12
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102:2
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56:11
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together
94:15
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testify
20:20
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told 142:24
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48:1690:15
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83:8 89:17
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through
143:15
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Page
178
transcript
55:1,17,21
107:23
79:3
82:12
90:17,20,21
variety26:12
56:3
151:10
62:18 70:12
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82:1985:1
133:13,22
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90:992:7
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96:1398:11
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tributaries
140:3,19
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112:20
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Twenty-nine
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Page
179
82:19,23
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Page 181
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