ORIG1NAt:

Page

ILLINOIS

POLLUTION

CONTROL

BOARD

THE

MATTER

OF:

WATER QUALITY

STANDARDS

AND

)

R08-09

EFFLUENT

LIMITATIONS

FOR THE

)

(Rulemaking

CHICAGO

AREA

WATERWAY

SYSTEM

)

water.)

AND

THE

LOWER

DES

PLAINES

RIVER:

PROPOSED

AMENDMENTS

35 Iii.

Adm.

Code

Parts

301,

302,

303, and

304

TRANSCRIPT

PROCEEDINGS

had

in the above-entitled

cause

before Hearing

Officer

Marie

Tipsord,

called

the

Illinois

Pollution

Control

Board,

taken

before

MARGARET

BEDDARD,

Notary

Public

within

and

for the

County

Kane,

State

Illinois,

and a

Certified

Shorthand

Reporter

said

state,

Room N-505,

160 North

LaSalle

Street,

Chicago,

Illinois,

on August

13, 2009,

at 9:00

a.m.

SEP

082009

Page 2

PRESENT:

MS. MARIE TIPSORD,

Hearing

Officer

MR. THOMAS

JOHNSON,

Member

MR.

ANAND RAO, Member

MR. G. TANNER

GIRARD,

Member

MR. GARY BLANKENSHIP,

Member

MR. SHUNDAR

LIN,

Member

appeared

on behalf of

the

Illinois

Pollution

Control

Board;

ILLINOIS

ENVIRONMENTAL

PROTECTION

AGENCY

1021 North Grand

Avenue

East

P.O. Box 19276

Springfield,

Illinois

62794

BY:

MS. DEBORAH

WILLIAMS and

MS. STEPHANIE

DIERS

appeared

on behalf of the

Illinois

Environmental

Protection

Agency;

MAYER, BROWN,

LLP

South Wacker

Drive

Chicago,

Illinois

60606

BY:

MR. THOMAS

W. DIMOND

appeared on behalf

of the Stepan

Company;

HUNTON & WILLIAMS,

LLP

1900 K Street,

N.W.

Washington,

D.C. 20006

BY:

MS. SUSAN M. FRANZETTI

appeared

on behalf

Midwest

Generation.

REPORTED

BY MARGARET

R. BEDDARD,

CSR.

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Page 4

HEARING

OFFICER TIPSORD:

Good morning, everyone.

name is Marie Tipsord. I’ve been appointed

by the

Board

serve as hearing officer in this

proceeding entitled

Water

Quality Standards and Effluent Limitations for the Chicago

Area Waterway System and the Lower Des Plaines River:

Proposed Amendments

to 35

Ill.

Adm. Code 301, 302, 303, and

304.

This

is docket number R08-09.

With me today to my immediate left is Acting Chairman

G. Tanner Girard, presiding board member. To his immediate

left is Board Member

Gary

Blankenship.

To the far left is

Board Member Shundar Lin. And Board Member Andrea Moore will

be joining us. To my far right is Board Member Thomas

Johnson. To my immediate right is Anand Rao from our

technical staff.

Yes, this is

day

31 of hearings. We are continuing

to hear testimony from members of the public, and

today the

purpose of the hearing is

hear the

testimony from several

witnesses. Those witnesses

are Robin Garibay and Dr. Carl

Adams testifying on behalf of Stepan Company. We’ll also

hear from Robert Albert from Exxon Mobil. We will begin

with

Ms. Garibay and Dr. Adams and then go to Mr. Albert.

The testimony will be marked as an exhibit and

entered as if read. After marking the pre-filed testimony

an exhibit, we will then proceed

to questions for the

Page

testifiers.

will

begin --

and this

solely

based on

the

number

the

questions

filed

with

the IEPA,

followed

Midwest

Generation,

then

Environmental

Law

and

Policy

Center,

and then

finally

the Metropolitan

Water

Reclamation

District

of Greater

Chicago.

Anyone

may

ask

follow-up

question,

and you

need

not

wait

until

your

turn

to ask

questions.

ask

that

you

raise your

hand

and wait

for me

to acknowledge

you. After

have

acknowledged

you,

please

state

your

name

and whom

you

represent

before

you begin

your

questions.

Please

speak

one

a time.

you

speak over

each

other,

the court

reporter

will not

able

to get

your questions

on the

record.

Please

note

that

any

questions

asked

a board

member

staff are

intended

help build

complete

record

for the

BoardTs

decision

and

not to express

any preconceived

notion

or bias.

Also, for

those

you

who will

with us

tomorrow,

we are

back

across

the street

in Room

9031

instead

of here

the

Bilandic

Building.

With

that,

Dr. Girard?

ACTING

CHAIRMAN

GIRARD:

Good morning.

Welcome

hearing

day

31 in this

rulemaking.

We look

forward

to your

testimony

and

questions

today.

Thanks.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Thank

you.

Page

With

that, would

you like

introduce

your witnesses

and we’ll

swear them

in?

MR. DIMOND:

Sure.

My name is

Tom

Dimond.

I’m an attorney

from Mayor,

Brown representing

Stepan

Company. With

today

are

Ms.

Robin

Garibay

and Dr.

Carl Adams

of Environ

Corporation

who will be

the testifying

witnesses.

Also, Jennifer

Simon

is here

with me from

my firm.

And Dan Muno

of Stepan

Company

is here

well.

Although,

is not

testifying.

HEARING

OFFICER TIPSORD:

With

that,

could we have

the witnesses

sworn in?

(WHEREUPON,

the witnesses

were duly

sworn.)

HEARING

OFFICER TIPSORD:

We’ll start with

their

testimony.

We’ll mark that

as a

pre-filed

exhibit.

Were

you going

to do

that as

one exhibit

two?

read as if it

was one. I didn’t

know

you

wanted

try

and

separate

them

out.

MR. DIMOND:

The

combined

report

a single -- is

for

both of them

jointly,

and they will

testify jointly.

Some

the

questions that

were

asked

will

natural

for Ms.

Garibay

to respond.

Others it

will

natural

for Dr. Adams

respond.

They

will

simply handle

the

questions

as they

come.

HEARING

OFFICER TIPSORD:

With

that,

then

we’ll mark

Page

it as one

exhibit.

(WHEREUPON,

discussion

was had

off

the

record.)

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

All right.

If there’s

objection,

we will

mark the

pre-filed

testimony of

Robin

Garibay and Dr.

Carl Adams

as Exhibit

No.

318.

MS. WILLIAMS:

I don’t have

objection.

I would

just like

to clarify, for

the record. It

looks like

what

you’ve

been handed

the report.

There was

filing

that

was titled pre-filed

testimony

as well.

HEARING OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Right.

You

correct.

What

I have

been handed does

not include

the introductory

remarks, which

is marked

as the pre-filed

testimony,

but

rather

what was

filed as Exhibit

when it was

pre-filed,

which is

-- the introductory

remarks were

-- I

took to be

introductory

remarks

and that

Exhibit A

was the

actual

testimony.

MR. DIMOND:

That is

correct.

The

pre-filing

just

introductory

remarks

counsel summarizing

what’s in

the

report.

The report

itself, Exhibit

is the testimony.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

And thank

you

for

that

clarification,

Ms.

Williams.

That

would have

gotten

confusing

later

on, I’m sure.

Thank

you.

objection?

Then

itTs

marked as

Exhibit

318.

Page

(WHEREUPON,

said document

was marked

Exhibit

No.

318,

for identification,

of 08/13/2009.)

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Go ahead,

Mr. Dimond.

Then

you have

some

other

exhibits?

MR.

DIMOND:

Thank you,

Madam

Hearing

Officer.

have four

other

exhibits

that

I would

to enter

initially,

and

I’ve

provided

copies

of these

counsel

for

Illinois

EPA.

The first

is titled

Stepan

Company’s

Response

Question

Number 4

of Illinois

EPA’s

Pre-Filed

Questions

for Stepan

Company’s

Witnesses

Carl Adams

and

Robin

Garibay.

That

question

asked

for information

that had

been

provided

Environ

Stepan.

Rather

than

have them

try

to list

out all

the

documents

verbally,

we simply

prepared

list and

propose

enter

that as

an exhibit

in response

to that

question.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

there’s

objection,

we’ll

mark

that as

Exhibit

319.

Seeing

none, it’s

Exhibit

319.

(WHEREUPON,

said document

was

marked

Exhibit

No.

319,

for identification,

08/13/2009.)

MR.

DIMOND:

The

second

exhibit

that we

would

enter

is a

revised

Figure

to the

report

of Ms.

Garibay

and

Dr.

Adams.

They

made some

corrections

to this

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MS.

DIERS:

And

I believe

question

was

answered

with

the

exhibit

that

was

presented

just

a few

minutes

ago,

which

was

Exhibit

319?

DR.

ADAMS:

That’s

correct.

MS.

DIERS:

Question

5. What

other

information

did

you

obtain

based on

your knowledge

and experience

the

wastewater

field?

DR. ADAMS:

The

additional

information

consisted

ambient

parameters

that

are

used

temperature

development,

the

experience

with

other

industrial

applications

for

disinfection

and

DO, and

the

vast

amount

experience

temperature

cooling,

and

is not

approach

that’s

used

elsewhere.

MS.

GARIBAY:

And

one

the temperature

models

used

was

Exhibit

322.

And

also

solicited

quotes

from

vendors,

equipment

manufactures,

which

are

part of

321.

MS.

DIERS:

Question

6. Who

did

you

consult

with

the Milisdale

plant

develop

your findings?

MS.

GARIBAY:

The

Stepan

team

that I

mentioned

earlier.

Dan

Muno

and Bob

Burke

were

our key

suppliers

information

and

data

site

visits.

MS.

DIERS:

And

when

did

you visit

the plant?

MS.

GARIBAY:

In July

2008.

MS.

DIERS:

just one

time?

Page

MS. GARIBAY:

Yes.

MS. DIERS:

Question 8.

When

you

say that

you

supervised and requested

efforts from

several

individuals,

are

you

referring

individuals who

work at Environ?

MS. GARIBAY:

Yes.

The

individuals

that

were

the

background

for this

testimony work

for

Environ

and under our

direct

supervision.

MS.

DIERS:

And what is Environ?

MS. GARIBAY:

Environ

is a

global consulting

firm

environmental

health

and safety.

It was

founded

in the mid

l980s.

May of 2005, Environ

acquired

Advent Group, and

Advent

Group was started

Dr.

Carl

Adams and two

other

partners in 1985

specializing

in industrial

wastewater

services.

I joined Advent

1987. We

became Environ

May

2005.

MS.

DIERS:

Question 10.

Dr.

Adams,

can

you

please

explain

your role in

preparing

this study?

DR. ADAMS:

basically served

as technical director.

such,

I was

responsible

for the

technology,

selection,

evaluation,

delineation,

and supervising

the cost analysis

and

operational

design

issues.

MS.

DIERS:

Question

11.

Ms.

Garibay,

can

you

please

explain

your role in preparing

this

study?

MS. GARIBAY:

role was

principal

in charge of

the

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Page 15

monitor the sudden frequency for 62 specific chemicals.

When

you

look at the frequency that

they have to analyze for those

chemicals over

year

to assess the quality of their

effluent, they generate 600 results. For the

study itself

and in looking at temperature and

DO and fecal coliform, it’s

the

period of time noted

in the specifics. So I think for

temperature, if you look at the graph, which I’ll

now

-- I

can’t do this off the top of my head

-- it

was

looking at

data from 2006 to basically June

of 2008.

MS. iDlERS: And

where is that in the report? What

page are you looking at?

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

She’s

looking at

Exhibit 320.

MS. GARIBAY: Well,

basically the graphs -- the

date

range on the graphs.

On figure 2, it shows starting April

2006, and ending towards

the end of June of 2008.

MS. iDlERS:

Question 13.

How did you come up with

the conditions

on page 4 of your exhibit?

DR. ADAMS: I think you’re referring

to bulleted

paragraphs, which basically are the lack

of an adequate

mixing zone approach and the prudent

design of using a

-- the

inability to use

mixing zone

so that, in our opinion, the

temperature standards were

applied to the end of pipe as

discharge and the

fact that we use a three-degree design

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MS. GARIBAY:

For his answer to

his question?

MS. WILLIAMS:

Yeah.

MS.

GARIBAY:

No.

I assumed

that

there would

be the

ability to

have some

assimilation

of the

thermal

included.

Thermal

mixing

zones

are

-- Typically,

in our

arena,

think

mixing zones

for

constituents

-- chemical

constituents.

Thermal mixing

zones we

normally think

terms

you’re

happy to assess

the ability of

the receiving

water to

assimilate

the heat because

it’s

not a

simple mass balance.

MS. WILLIAMS:

But

you’re saying

that the

one MGD --

And I’m assuming

sometimes

it’s less

than

that,

correct?

MS. GARIBAY:

The permit

writer designed

-- The

permit writer

average

for calculating

is 0.88. What

use

for

design is 1.1

MCD.

MS.

WILLIAMS: And

you’re saying

that that amount

discharge

would cause

a violation

the water quality

standard if it

was being met

only marginally?

MS. GARIBAY:

The delta between

the period average

and

the discharge

temperature

of Stepan,

particularly

the

winter, depending

where

someone

going

to define

where

the

period average

has to be

met could cause

an exceedence

that

period average.

MS. WILLIAMS:

As an average

or on a one-time

basis?

MS.

GARIBAY: Well,

the one-time

numbers are huge,

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Page 23

MR.

ETTINGER: I’m

Albert Ettinger,

E—t-t-i-n-g-e-r.

used

to work here

from

time

to time.

I represent

few

environmental

groups in

this proceeding.

Have

you

done any analysis

what

the

upstream

discharges

of heat are

and their

potential

impact on heat

the

point of

discharge?

MS. GARIBAY:

No.

We took the

1-55 temperature

data

and

assigned it

as background.

MR.

ETTINGER:

So you havent

looked

what would

happen

the 1-55

temperatures

Midwest Generation

were

comply

with

the proposed

discharges

would

have to

comply

with

in order to

meet the proposed

standards?

MS.

GARIBAY:

No,

we have

not.

Our

scope was

to take

the

current conditions

and

see

how it

-- Our charge

was

look at the current

conditions

and to

see how

it would impact

Stepan

with the proposed

changes.

MR. RAO:

Stepan

allowed

mixing

zone

under

these

proposed

regulations,

some of

these costs that

have

talked about

would no longer

be applicable?

MS. GARIBAY:

For temperature?

MR. RAO:

Yeah.

MS.

GARIBAY: The

presumption being

a lot of mixing

zones

to the point

where

you

would

able to comply?

MR. RAO:

Yes.

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Page 25

oxygen requirements.

So we -- We went

a little bit beyond

your question as it was

specifically phrased and provided

you

all that detail.

MS. DIERS:

And why did

you decide that effluent

disinfection would

be necessary?

DR. ADAMS: As

opposed to the other options? Well,

basically

there are two options. One is

to get the septic

tanks and try to disinfect there or

after the

biological system source control,

which would be to catch the

septic tanks where the

fecal

coliforms

coming from and

try

chlorinate

there. Secondly, would

be to go ahead and mix

everything in and get a much lower concentration

and

disinfect the entire spring.

The source control -- Number

one at

Stepans

plant,

the sources cannot

collected into

one source. There would

be multiple, multiple. These

things are all buried now,

and

they

ve been built over.

TheyTre

really a mish-mash, and

they all come

together at the treatment plant

different

points. It would be a very, very major effort

try

to find

each septic -- they know where they are,

but to get each

septic tank and

put

in the disinfectant.

It’s very concentrated water.

YouTre

always worried

in an infectible situation of adding chlorine

in high

concentrations that

youTre

going

to get into the organics

Page 26

from the

industry

and form chlorinated

organics, which gets

you into more problems

then you solve. That was looked

at.

was obviously

the

way

we would like

to go,

and we

decided

it was

infeasible.

And the chlorine

addition

system would

have to be very, very precise

to avoid over-chlorination and

getting chlorine into

the organics from the industry and

forming

the bad guys. And led us down

the treatment

plant

and to the effluent. And then we addressed

different

disinfection methods at the effluent.

And I can get into

that, if

you

want,

later what they are.

MS. DIERS: Did you have

data

that shows that

Stepans effluent is exceeding 400

CFU fecal?

DR. ADAMS:

Yes.

MS. GARIBAY:

Yes.

MR. GIRARD:

You referenced

that you have about 15

septic systems. Do these septic

systems just accept human

waste, or

does

processed waste

go into these systems?

DR. ADAMS:

Only human waste, toilets. There’s no

laundry.

It’s mainly toilets that go into the septic

tanks.

MR. GIRARD:

So what sort of processing

goes

the septic tanks? Is it just some rudimentary, biological --

DR. ADAMS:

There’s an anaerobic chamber

like a

residential septic tank. It’s very similar

to residential.

And you overflow into

drain

field. Rather than a drain

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Page 32

compliance with the proposed

DO standards?

MS. GARIBAY:

Well, I don’t have a Midwest

Generation

report in

front

me. If I remember right, like, 2004 there

were

a few periods. When you got to

2005 and 2006, there

were

certainly more periods of time that they

identified in

the summary

of their

data

where they weren’t meeting

either

the

seven-day average, the 30-day

average, or the

not-to-exceed-at-any-time numbers.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

Ms. Garibay,

when you refer

the

Midwest Generation reports, are those documents in the

record? I believe they are. Do you

know what the exhibit

is?

MR. DIMOND:

Madam Hearing Officer,

we provided the

text

of those reports to Environ. ItTs on the list

documents

that we provided to them. I believe that

they are

in the

record. We searched and tried to find the

exhibit

number

and were unable to find it. But I believe they may

have been put in at

some point.

You know,

we understand that those documents were

prepared for -- in

conjunction with

adjusted

standard

proceeding 96-10 and thought

that they would actually be in

the docket for AS 96-10, but

we were

unable to

find them on

the docket on the s

Board website. We suspect that

the Board

has

them someplace. As to whether or not they’ve been marked

Page

exhibit

in this proceeding,

I said, we looked

the

exhibit

list, but we could

not

find them

specifically.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Ms.

Franzetti?

MS. FRANZETTI:

Susan

Franzetti from

Midwest

Generation.

Not that we have

examined

every exhibit

that’s

been

introduced

this proceeding,

but,

based

on our general

knowledge,

we don’t

think the

Midwest Generation

reports for

2004

through

2006 have been

made exhibits

this

proceeding.

The

information

is submitted

the Agency.

The Agency

has

it.

that

would

just

be one

other check

as to

whether

they

have

introduced

it as

an exhibit.

But we can

speak as well

for

ourselves

and

our

general

knowledge

of the record.

don’t

think it’s

in the

record.

MS. WILLIAMS:

may be mistaken,

but

don’t

think

it’s

the record.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

That

being

the case

then,

I’m

going to ask

that it be put

in the record

given

Dr.

Adams’

and Ms. Garibay’s

reliance

on it. It

you want

or if

you want

work on it

with Ms.

Franzetti and the

Agency,

but I do think

we need to

include it

in the record.

MR.

DIMOND:

We do

not

have

the full reports.

have

the

text of

the reports that

provided

Environ,

and

we’d be

happy to

make

copies of those

and

provide

them

as an

Page

exhibit.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Thank

you.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Can

ask

one

follow-up

question

just

clarify?

With

respect

the

DO standards

that

Environ

was

looking

at and

comparing

the

1-55

data

to,

would

those

the

existing

DO water

quality

standards,

are

they

the

proposed

standards

under

this

proceeding?

MS.

GARIBAY:

looked

the

proposed

standards.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Mr.

Ettinger?

MR.

ETTINGER:

your

understanding

that

the

proposed

standards

for

the

Upper

Dresden

Pool

are

any

different

from

the

current

general

use

standards

that

are

applicable

below

the

1-55

bridge?

MS.

GARIBAY:

Yes.

Yes,

they’re

different.

MR.

ETTINGER:

what

way?

MS.

GARIBAY:

Well?

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Ms. Garibay,

could

you

speak

us?

MR.

ETTINGER:

don’t

matter

here.

MS.

GARIBAY:

The

Upper

Dresden

Pool

standards

are

milligrams

-- they’re

milligrams

per

liter

seven-day

use

and

then

not

exceed

any

time

from

March

July.

And

then

from

August

February,

5.5

milligrams

per

liter

Page 35

30-day mean, 4 milligrams

as a

seven-day

mean, and

3.5

milligrams per liter

at any time. And those are

different than the

current standards that Stepan would

facing.

MR. ETTINGER:

Are they different from the current

standards

that are

applicable at the 1-55 bridge and below

it?

MS. GARIBAY:

I don’t know.

Our segment of

water

that we’re looking

at is 1-55.

MR. ETTINGER:

And I’m not asking

you

for your legal

opinion. I’m just asking for the assumptions

that are the

basis for your conclusion.

Is it your assumption

that

what

matters is the water

body

that you’re discharging

even

if that water flows

to a

water now that has

different

standard?

MS. GARIBAY:

Well, I’ll answer it from a technical

aspect.

MR. ETTINGER:

Okay.

MS. GARIBAY: Typically, one

does

look

at the

assimilative capacity of the water

body. So, as I was

explaining, you have those DO sinks that

you inventory, your

DO sources. You collect the information

about the kinetics

and dynamics of the water

body and put that into a model.

Once again,

EPA

has a number of them for different

types

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Page 37

MR. DIMOND: I believe

itTs

in the report.

MS. FPJNZETTI: The front

page

of the pre-filed

testimony. “The Millsdale plant

is located

about

two

three miles upstream of the 1-55

bridge.TT

I do read

what

you

file.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

But this

not

in the record. This

is the introductory comments.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

It’s also on page 3 of

Exhibit

318.

MR.

ETTINGER:

I guess

my question though is, is the

discharge -- Does that refer to the discharge?

You’re

talking about two to three miles -- nautical miles from the

discharge point.

MS. GARIBAY: Right. Miles, not nautical.

MS. DIERS:

Question

16. What were the cross-media

impacts your study

found?

DR.

ADAMS: We have, I think, modified that in here.

But mainly the areas

where

the

air, sludge generation or

solids generated, energy usage, carbon footprint, and

sometimes expressed in population equivalents --

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

You need to keep your --

You trail off at the end, Dr. Adams.

DR. ADAMS:

The cross-media impacts that we were

concerned

with that threw

out

most attention in public

Page

discussions are the air, sludge/solids

generation, energy

utilization, chemical usage, and carbon

footprint, and

sometimes

population equivalents are used as an expression.

MR. DIMOND:

If I could just

ask

follow-up.

Dr. Adams, did we -- did you and your

team calculate

numeric

-- numeric equivalents for the air emissions

that

would be

required for

the

technology for Stepan to comply

with these proposed water quality

standards?

DR. ADAMS:

Yes, we did.

MR. DIMOND: Are those set forth in your

report,

which has been marked as

Exhibit 318?

DR. ADAMS:

Yes.

MR. DIMOND:

Can you identify

the page on which they

are

set

forth?

DR. ADAMS: There will be three,

one for

disinfection, one for temperature, and one

for DO. And

the

page

numbers? For disinfection, page 11.

For temperature,

pages 8 and 9.

For dissolved oxygen, page 13.

This is

combined here. I

think this is DO. And then, finally, on

page 14 a combined of

all the others.

MR. DIMOND: Just

for the record, for the combined of

all the technologies,

what was yoir estimate of the

additional C02 emissions that

would

generated

the

technologies necessary to comply with Illinois

EPA’s proposed

Page

water quality standards?

DR.

ADAMS: Approximately 130,000 tons.

MR. DIMOND:

Thank you.

MS. DIERS:

I think

you already answered question 17.

Well go to 18.

What environmental damage would

be caused by

having

Illinois EPA’s proposal adopted?

believe

you kind of

touched on it

just a

second

ago.

DR. ADAMS: Well,

I think we just quantified the

cross-media. That’s really to me the environmental damage.

Particularly with the temperature,

you’re not getting rid of

it. You’re transferring it.

It doesn’t go away

unfortunately. Energy is

here. And we transfer it to air

ground or something

else, but it’s there. And many times

the

devices we

use to transfer it generate more energy from

friction.

Mechanical pumps running, blowers running, they

generate energy from friction that wouldn’t

in the

equation overall.

MS. WILLIAMS: d

TI like

ask

a follow-up.

This question, when

it talks about environmental

damage, are

you

using that

term to equate to Factor 3 -- I

believe it’s Factor

-- would

cause more environmental

damage then

leave

in place?

DR.

ADAMS:

I’m not sure I --

Page 40

MS.

WILLIAMS: In the introductory comments, I think

your counsel gets at this issue of UAA factors and that

one

of the

factors requires

us to

look

whether

a remedy

would,

quote, cause

more environmental

damage to correct than leave

in place. Is that the type of environmental damage you’re

talking about here?

MR. DIMONID:

I’m

going

to object.

I mean,

environmental damage was the term you used in your question.

MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

I’m trying to explain. Our

question was keying off of this

use

of that term from --

HEARING OFFICER

TIPSORD:

But that’s something you

just asked.

You

asked him to explain what he meant by --

Rephrase your question.

MS. WILLIAMS:

I think my question was do you mean

environmental damage Factor -- I hope

itTs

I hope

ITm

not

using the wrong factor -- of the use attainability factor?

Is that what you mean? Yes or no?

MR. DIMOND:

I’m going to

object to

the grounds

that

the witnesses are not making legal

arguments. It

certainly

Stepan’s

position

that the impacts -- the

cross-media

impacts from -- It’s certainly Stepan’s legal

position

that the cross-media impacts that will be generated

by the technologies necessary to achieve the proposed water

quality standards are environmental damage that is

Page 41

legitimately considered in

a UAA analysis in determining

what -- whether or not the proposed water quality standards

are appropriate. That’s certainly

a legal position that I

think we intend

argue.

But I don’t think that’s a fair

question to ask of expert witnesses.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

And,

Mr. Dimond,

think

I’m going

have

ask

you to be sworn in. I think you

just

answered and gave

some positions that I think --

MR.

DIMOND:

Well, I think those are legal positions.

I don’t think they’re testimony.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

I would be more comfortable

if you

were sworn

given

the response to the question

because you are explaining some stuff that were in the

pre-comments that are not a part of the record. I’d feel

more comfortable if we swore you in.

MR. DIMONID:

Fine.

(WHEREUPON, the witness was duly

sworn.)

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

And now I’m thinking about

the

objection.

MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, I think we

ll just explain,

least for

the record. You know, we felt, when we prepared

our questions, that this summary in the beginning was

legitimate questions for the witnesses

because it was

Page 42

testimony of Robin Garibay and Carl Adams. And in that

testimony,

you

know,

Stepan

has invoked this issue for

consideration.

would like an

answer

to the

question

whether

itTs

Stepan’s position that it would cause more

environmental damage

treat for these factors --

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

And

think

Mr.

Dimond

just

answered that question, and we have him sworn in.

MS. WILLIAMS: And his position was then -- Then can

clarify?

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

That

Stepan

would argue

that as a legal argument that that’s true.

Am I misstating that?

MS. WILLIAMS: Well, I only heard you say that it’s

factor

consider. Did

you

conclude that it would cause

environmental damage

treat for temperature, dissolved

oxygen,

and bacteria then

leave those in place?

MR.

DIMOND:

don’t think there is anything in

either the report or our statement

that

says

weTve

reached

conclusion that it’s more. But it certainly is environmental

damage that ought

be considered and the Illinois EPA did

not

consider

all in its proposal. I think it’s fair for

the

Board

consider it.

MS. WILLIAMS: I think that answers the question.

Thank you.

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implementation tool, taking the in-stream criteria to

end-of-pipe

limit, we’re missing background concentrations.

MS.

DIERS:

Is Stepan

currently collecting that data?

MS. GARIBAY: Not the background

concentration

data.

MS.

DIERS:

22. What metals are you concerned with?

MS.

GARIBAY: According

Stepan and Mr. Twait, the

metals that would indicate there should be some

concern

about

are

copper, lead, nickel, and zinc.

MS. iDlERS:

I believe you answered 23.

24.

Why did your conclusions not address the impact

the river directly?

MS. GARIBAY:

Our task was to make sure

that the

effluent

wouldn’t impact the river based on the proposed

standards

that

company -- the redesignation of use. So the

approach

was that our effluent would meet the standards --

the proposed

standards. Therefore, inherently there

should

be no river impact because

we were meeting that proposed

standard at end

pipe.

However, we did note in

our findings that with the

use

of chlorination and dechlorination there

will

increase

in chloride and sulfate in

the effluent. We also

noted

that in chlorinating there is a small

possibility

forming chlorinated organics. In addition,

when

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increase

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discharge, we may have

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Page 46

direct-contact cooling towers infeasible?

DR. ADAMS:

Yes, based

on what

you

saw if you read

the report. Neither one will

evaporate cool enough

meet

without the help of a chiller. The performance

of both

towers

are

about equal.

It’s

matter of operational

difficulties with an open --

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

Could you repeat

that?

DR. ADAMS:

IT11

repeat it.

The performance of both closed-circuit cooling towers

and open cooling

towers

is about

the same. There are

operational differences with them and

operational problems,

particularly with a foaming wastewater like Stepan

with

the

open

cooling towers. But neither one will meet the

requirements during warmer months --

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

You trailed off at the end.

DR. ADAMS: Wet bulb temperature, which is a term

used in cooling.

MS. IDlERS:

I’m going

to go to

question 32. Why are

all your emissions figures from

electric generators based on

coal-fired utilities? Does Stepan get power

from the grid?

Do you

know if Illinois generates as much

power from nuclear

from coal?

MS. GARIBAY:

The emission figures were based on

coal-fired utilities. Midwest Generation Station 9 is about

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HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

We’ll

begin with

Mr. Franzetti’s questions from Midwest Generation.

QUESTIONING ON BEHALF OF

MIDWEST GENERATION

MS. FRANZETTI:

Good morning, Ms. Garibay and Dr. Adams.

My name is Susan Franzetti. I represent Midwest Generation

this rulemaking proceeding.

I will try,

as I go

along,

to eliminate

questions

that you have essentially provided the answer to in response

questions by the Agency. In the event I overlook the

fact

that

one of my questions maybe has already been covered,

welcome you

pointing

that out to

because it is

not my

desire to go

over

things twice. I just may not

have

realized

that it was covered in your earlier testimony.

With that, my first two questions really are aimed

what qualifies you to be an expert to testify about the

issues you’ve covered in your report. With that, Question 1,

what is your experience in working with wastewater treatment

plants,

including the

type

of treatment systems necessary

achieve effluent or water quality standards?

DR. ADAMS:

I’ve had over

35 years

experience

purely

industrial wastewater management primarily with the

organic chemical industry,

refineries,

and steel industries,

50 this particular situation fits exactly with the clients

Page

I’ve been dealing with

for

35 years. Most of my

design

experience has been in response to achieving water quality

standards or technological limits

an effluent discharge.

The processes have

involved everything

from

biological,

physical chemical treatment, membranes, water reuse, recycle,

sludge

handling and management, off-gas BOO, volatile organic

chemical

emissions and handling them and developing cost

effective approaches.

MS. FRANZETTI: Ms. Garibay, would you like to tell

us a

bit about your experience that’s relevant to the issues

you’re testifying on?

MS. GARIBAY:

Well,

I started

with Advent back in

1987 and got thrown into what I call the

fires of effluent

limit guidelines for the organic chemicals,

plastic, and

synthetic fibers industry and also served on a

water

environment federation committee that

was commenting on

the

technical support document for water quality-based

toxics

control and between that sort of was rapidly introduced to

the

technology-based limits for an industry and the need for

water quality

criteria and understanding how to implement

those water

quality criteria in discharge limits. So since

1987 as a

consultant

to, you

know, organic chemicals,

petroleum

refineries, have worked on the relationship between

technology-based limits, water quality-based

effluent limits,

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Page 52

detergent manufacturers, Cecil. We

were

trying to get

the oil

and greases classified to go into public sewers

-- municipal

sewers. And that’s been my Illinois.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

By Cecil

in the

last remark, you were

referring to Dr. Cecil Ruhane formerly of the

Metropolitan

Water Reclamation District?

DR. ADAMS: That’s correct.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Thank

you.

Off the record.

(WHEREUPON, a discussion was had

off

the record.)

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Moving on, I am going

skip 3 in

terms of, I think, just based

on your prior answers and my

further study after filing

these questions. Can I just

modify it to say this? Am I

correct

that

your Figure 1 that

was attached to your report,

Exhibit

318,

on the left-hand

side going down the column, so to speak, that

starts with

process wastewater, does that list the various types

wastewater that are coming into the Stepan wastewater

treatment plant?

DR. ADAMS: That’s correct.

MS. FPJNZETTI: Okay. For the record, I’ve already

identified the first one. Process WW means process

wastewater.

Would

you just

briefly

through and tell us

Page 53

what the different waste streams are that are all coming into

the

Stepan wastewater treatment facility?

DR. ADAMS: The process wastewater is from the

production of the various products. These are

wash-downs,

clean-outs, residues after

product is made that enter a

sewer and come directly

the treatment plant. The utility

wastewaters

are from generally the boiler

operations and

may

consider -- and I think I gave you cooling tower blow-down --

but

boiler blow-down, unexchanged resin, reverse osmosis.

Sanitary we talked about. It’s pre-treated with septic

tanks. Decant

wastewater

-- I’ve forgotten. The

decant

the middle is from a sludge. This may be from the digesters

where they digest the sludge in decant. Non-contact

stormwater is stormwater that could be potentially

contaminated, but doesn’t fall in a production area.

ItTs

around the plant and they treat that there. And then a

sludge

basin decant, after they’ve treated and digested their

sludges,

they store it in

basin.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Moving

on to Question

4, how

does the

temperature of the

wastewater

that enters the Milisdale

Plant’s wastewater treatment process affect

the

proper

functioning of the

wastewater

treatment process?

DR. ADAMS: The heart of Stepan’s plant is a

biological treatment system. They use bacteria and

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Page 56

But that’s the reason

for

wanting a temperature range that’s

fairly consistent in a 10 or 15 degree swing maximum.

MS. FRANZETTI:

I’m going

move into Thermal

Compliance,

Section

my questions, and Question 6.

You state at page 4 of your testimony that, “It is

very evident that maintaining heat within the biological

treatment process and then being required

remove

the heat

prior to discharge of the effluent is contrary to most, if

not all, laws of nature on conservation and carbon

footprint.TT

Could you just explain a bit further what

you

meant by this

statement?

DR. ADAMS:

Basically

itTs

against all principles of

cost effectiveness and conservation of resources to heat

something up to make it effective and then cool it down

immediately following that for regulatory purpose unless

thereTs

a major, major driver. What’s even more difficult

trying to control the temperature

the front end of

system, which is more economical

because

you’ve

got a

bigger -- higher temperature,

so it’s easier to cool. It’s

cheaper. But then

you hurt yourself in a biosystem.

You also have

a heat input from a biosystem from

biologically

degrading organisms. You get a heat input

exothermic

reaction that gives you heat that you have no

control over. So following that and having

cool down,

Page 57

would be much more

engineering

acceptable to

take one point

back here and cool this stuff and be done with it. We’re not

allowed

to do

that with biological systems. We have to keep

pampering

them

with temperature control during the year.

Then we

have

another system afterwards.

can’t

optimize it. We have to take what we did to make the bugs

happy and cool

it down. It’s not, from

technical

standpoint, a good

approach

at all.

And the law of nature

can apply to an engineer.

MS. FRANZETTI:

Thank you.

I understand.

Move on

Question 7. You further state at page

of your

testimony that,

“The

energy that creates the heat

the wastewater treatment plant effluent

cannot

destroyed

and can only be removed from the effluent by

transferring

to some other environmental media, for

example ambient

air,

through processes that

themselves

required

energy resources

and the production of more energy and

heat.TT

Now, I believe, with respect to my questions, you

testified earlier about the generation of approximately

130,000 tons per year of C02 emissions. Is there anything

addition

that, with respect

my questions here, that

you

would like

to add to

your testimony?

DR. ADAMS: Only

that,

when we enter into

a design or

a concept of cooling, 99

percent

of the approaches are going

Page 58

involve mechanical

equipment. The only thing that doesn’t

is a

massive operation pond. That’s assuming

you get

evaporation.

But

assuming mechanical

equipment, mechanical

equipment is using energy to transfer this heat around, and

it’s

creating energy through the friction. The pumps are

making

energy from electrical -- where

we take a volt of

electricity. You get about 80 percent efficiency out of it.

The rest of it is going to heat what we just made. Then on

top

of that we’re transferring that heat generally

the

air. Again, in cooling,

we’re

usually using an evaporation

somewhere. That’s the most economical way to cool.

In this case, because of our temperatures, we’re

having to use a chiller also, which is using

chemical,

propylene glycol or something,

exchange the heat. But

we’re still putting the heat in the air. It’s not going

anywhere else. We’re making some extra heat with the

mechanical equipment. It’s

just got to be a real good

reason. We’re just using resources.

MS. FRANZETTI:

Now, following up on that,

Question 8, have you estimated how much heat would need

to be

removed from Stepan’s wastewater discharge in order to comply

with the proposed regulations?

DR. ADAMS:

Yes. And we’ve

expressed this heat in

Page 59

BTU’s

per hour that has to be removed.

And

that

was the

curve that Ms.

Garibay was showing

you.

That curve

represents BTU’s per hour

for each

day.

MS. FRNZETTI: If you

would,

just so

the record is

clear, which

figure?

MS. GARIBAY: It’s

Figure 4. It’s the dot Figure 4.

MS. FRANZETTI:

The

revised Figure 4?

MS. GARIBAY:

Right.

HEARING

OFFICER TIPSORD:

Exhibit 320.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Exhibit 320.

Thank you.

I don’t think 9 has been covered.

I’ll read. While

I’m

reading

it, you

can remind us as to

whether it has been

not.

Your

testimony

page 5 describes seven

technologies/processes

you evaluated for

end-of-pipe

temperature

reduction (cooling ponds, flow augmentation,

cooling towers, heat

exchange, chillers, cooling air,

and

surface aeration in

tanks) after biological treatment of the

wastewater? In other words, so all of

those are technologies

that

would

add-on technologies after the

biological

treatment of the wastewater occurs, correct?

DR. ADAMS: Partially correct.

MS. FRNZETTI: Okay. What’s not correct?

DR.

ADAMS:

One of the things you would like to do is

Page 60

combine.

Something I’m doing. Maybe putting air into the

system with coolant. Instead of bubbling air

through

biological system -- they need air to breathe and eat and

chew

-- I would sit

sprayer on top and spray air in that

way. It would also be cooling.

The problem is -- There are many problems with that.

The

surface aerators we don’t design much anymore because of

the maintenance

problem. Two, if

youTve

got

wastewater

that has foamy potential,

which we have here, the motors

burn

out quickly. They get covered with foam. It’s

really

maintenance nightmare. We’ve taken many, many of them out.

Thirdly, they don’t

fit

into

our existing tanks. They’re

deep

tanks that were made to

conserve energy. These have

big sprayer. To put enough in to cool,

you’re sending water

all over the plant sides. It’s a mess.

MS. FRANZETTI:

Like a big fountain?

DR. ADAMS: Yeah, like a big fountain.

In fact, there’s sprayer coolers. We did look at

them. It

seemed infeasible. We looked

sticking them in

the effluent

tank, tank no.

putting

spray cooler in

there. It’s just too big, the

amount of power we need.

WeTve

got to go to a separate

device.

There is one other method that

we’ve

used

in Asia

where we actually take the bacteria, bring them to a cooler,

Page

and stick

them

back

in the

plant.

It works,

but

it’s

nightmare.

It’s foul.

It’s

plugged

all

the

time.

It’s

nightmare.

We’ve

been

forced

into that.

did look

that,

and really

and truly

got

keep

our

bugs happy

with one

temperature

and

we’ve

got to meet

a discharge

with

another.

need

a separate

process,

which

is more

money.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Did

understand

that

correctly?

You’re

saying

you

would

take

the bugs

and

cool them,

put

them

in the

f ridge,

so to speak,

and

then

take them

out

and

put

them

back

into

the

aeration

basins?

DR.

ADAMS:

We’ve

got

three plants

Brazil

that did

that.

MS. GARIBAY:

doesn’t

work

real

well.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

am sure

the

bugs

are not

liking

it.

DR.

ADAMS:

was the

only

cooling

approach

that

Because

that

famous

wet bulb

temperature

really

bad

there.

was

the only

approach

could

get

two-degree

drop

from

the

bugs.

And

we had

special

bugs,

night

flyers,

that need

little

cooler

wastewaters.

know a

lot about

temperature.

When

shiver

it,

it’s

because

we’ve

had a

lot

of experience

with

it.

MS. FRANZETTI:

And

now you’re

saying

environmentally

and

you yourself

personally?

DR. ADAMS:

Yes.

I wrote

that

paper.

have all

the

Page 62

temperature problems in the

world.

MS. FRANZETTI:

I think

that

answers what

the intent

of my question was in 9.

DR. ADAMS: We looked

in tanks.

We could use the

tanks, but

it wouldn’t work.

MS.

FRANZETTI: Okay. Just so it’s clear

after

that,

the seven temperature

control technologies and processes

you

evaluated for the Stepan

Plant

-- and

this is Question

-- which ones did you conclude

were

not

feasible?

DR. ADAMS:

Were not feasible?

MS. FRANZETTI:

Yeah.

DR. ADAMS: The evaporation

ponds with mechanical

supplement, let’s say spray cooler, because

of area of volume

and the

foaming that was going to be spreading

around the

neighborhood. The heat exchangers, cooling

towers. The

open-cooling tower, which is probably one of the most cost

effective, will be a

mess because of foaming here.

It’s

going to be plugged

and foul continuously. Well, the

circuit

cooling tower would not get the

drop we needed by itself.

Independently, it would not get the

temperature drop needed,

we had

do it in conjunction

with

the

chiller. Cooling

the

air from blower

blower are hot. Air

comes out. You

get about

one

two degrees impact with that.

We’ve done

that several

times. It’s not an effective way to

cool,

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Page 66

and upsets. You

design compliance

for

an average. For

temperature, what was presented as a standard

was

period

average.

MS.

WILLIAMS: Do

you

understand we’re not talking

about

an effluent limit here? We’re talking about

an ambient

limit. With ambient limit, the average also has to

take

into

account

variation of flow in the system as well. That’s why

I’m asking about

this.

MS. GARIBAY:

And we do

understand.

I mean, you

know, I feel like I have a good familiarity with

how

in-stream

standards function.

For

instance, aquatic criteria is

four-day average.

You then look at a mixing

zone that looks

the duration and

frequency of that four-day

average.

You

have

statistical

methodology where you take a four-day

average

to a

monthly

average permit limit. We

haven’t

seen

anything in the

rationale or in permit fact sheets that explains

how this

rule

is going to be implemented into monthly

average

discharge

limits.

have

standard with no implementation, including

answering the

question we were asked earlier. How are you

going to do a thermal

model? What are

you

going to look

look at assimilated capacity for

temperature? From an

engineering basis for the purpose of this

task

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and

other stuff, sludge

generation,

we look at an

average.

We may

not operate the equipment at max all the time. And

thats what we

did here. With the temperature, we assumed

our chiller would be running quite a bit of the

time,

but not

all the

time. But we had

design

handle 9.4 million BTU

per hour because

that’s what could come

out

of here.

MS. FRANZETTI: Am I correct in

understanding that

you

followed

EnvironTs

typical design approach here?

DR. ADAMS:

Yeah. And our three degrees is on the

max and it’s

the

average and it’s on the low number. It’s

on each dot in there we add to it in that

Figure 4 or

whatever.

MS. FRANZETTI: So the answer’s yes to that question?

DR.

ADAMS:

Yeah.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

So you

were not applying any extra

level of

conservatism here than what you normally do

when

you

do this type of work

of designing wastewater treatment

systems to achieve

compliance with effluent limitations or

water quality standards?

MS. GARIBAY: Right. From the

engineering aspect,

absolutely. From the how good does effluent

quality need

be, we

had some

data

gaps that I’ve already keyed up

for.

don’t

know how certain things are going to be implemented.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Right.

Page 69

And you don’t know -- I mean, another thing you don’t

know is,

assuming

Midwest

Generation complies with whatever

the ultimate standards are,

whether

that

will translate

that

-- the water that is passing by the Stepan

plant is

still no better

than

just

being

the water quality

standard, correct?

MS. GARIBAY:

Right.

MS. FRANZETTI: And is that part of your

concern

earlier? When

you

were talking about difficulty in making

assumption about

availability of mixing zone, you don’t have

basis right now to know

whether

and

how

and

when the

receiving water is going to be either

above,

at,

just

below, or way below the then applicable thermal

water

quality

standard?

MS. GARIBAY:

Right. The only data that

we can

make

this

evaluation on is data that’s available to us, the data

that

basically is current conditions. We certainly don’t

have the data that says

not only what would happen

with

upstream sources, but

actually with the other things that

impact temperature. Such as,

this year

has been cold,

wet, and rainy. Across this

entire watershed and in Lake

Michigan the waters are all

below what they were in 2006 and

2007 where, once again, across this

midwest watershed all

the

temperatures were higher. I mean, it’s not just

point

Page 70

sources that are

going

to be impacting the temperature of the

receiving water.

MS. FRANZETTI: And flow obviously is

factor in

that as well?

MS. GARIBAY:

Yes, absolutely.

MS. FRANZETTI: And I take it -- Are

you

familiar

enough with the

Upper Dresden

Pool area that

re talking

about to be aware that the flow

level

can really

vary

in that

pool?

MS. GARIBAY:

Yes.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

You

aware

that at

times there’s

little to no flow going through that?

MS. GARIBAY:

Exactly.

MS. FRANZETTI: And that would affect as well the

availability of a mixing zone potentially in combination with

other factors?

MS. GARIBAY: Exactly. And greatly impact at a

similar capacity,

too,

for both temperature and DO.

MS. FRANZETTI:

do think

I want

ask Question

given just a moment. With respect to

Question 11, I will

read it and then let me explain what I’m

looking

for.

Beginning on page 8 of your testimony, you

describe

the

economic costs involved in the technology of adding a cooling

tower in combination with a heat exchanger/chiller

Page 71

combination at

the Milisdale Plant and identify a capital

cost

of $1,640,000 and O&M costs of $1,300,000 per

year.

I recognize that they’re there on the bottom of the

page 8 of

your report

and

there are some parentheticals

included. They are for each figure. They

give

little bit

description. With respect

the capital cost, what are

the main

components there that

into making that cost as

high as 1.64

million?

DR. ADAMS: The

obvious

equipment cost as

delivered

from

vendor. That would be pre done to design

standards.

Then the inner

piping, electrical. And there is quite a bit

of electrical associated with a

chiller that would have to be

provided, the infrastructure to

support. Then there’s the

actual installation itself, which can be

two or three times

the cost of the equipment, and the

engineering fees. What is

not included is start-up and operation.

That’s not included

that

cost.

MS. FR1NZETTI:

Okay.

Why is the O&M so

high

1.3

million

a year?

What’s the biggest component of that?

DR. ADAMS:

Electrical. Running the chiller. The

chiller is 30 percent

more than just the cooling tower.

MS. FRANZETTI:

I’m

going

move on.

Just a few

questions on disinfection.

Question 12. Why would Stepan have to

disinfect its

Page

wastewater in

order to

comply with

the proposed fecal

coliform standard in the proposed rules?

MS. GARIBAY: Well, basically Stepan has about 15

septic

systems spread

throughout the plant.

The overflow,

the liquid part of the septic system, goes -- commingles with

their processed wastewater. They collected samples in 2008

and

-- limited sampling,

but all

the results were greater

than 400 at the

final

discharge point at the final

effluent

tank.

MS. FRANZETTI: All the samples were above?

MS.

GARIBAY:

Uh-huh.

MS. FRANZETTI:

Okay.

Move

on to Question 13.

pages 9 and 10 of your testimony, you review the technologies

considered for disinfection. Could you explain -- And this

can be brief because, to some extent, I think you

have

covered this in some of your answer to the

Agencys

questions. Explain why you concluded that the only feasible

option would

chlorination followed by dechlorination.

DR. ADAMS:

I think I explained why source control

would

be extremely

difficult. It would

quite

bit

digging the tanks up.

The options end

pipe -- The three

ones that are most

common worldwide are chlorination, which

is probably 80 percent, then using

peroxide

or ozone in

combination with a catalyst, DV light. So light is very

Page 73

important to

make it work and would reduce the dosage to

it.

This wastewater is

colored and UV lights don’t penetrate the

water very well, so it’s not an

effective method of

catalytic. The other catalysts that can be used

is ferric

iron, and you get

tremendous amounts of sludge with it. It’s

just not worth fooling with it. It’s a

mess. We’ve had to

use

it in some cases with chemical

oxidation, but not with

disinfection.

really peroxide and ozone

are sort of high

the sky things

to do.

But they’re not only

very expensive.

It’s just not

feasible and the foaming could very easily --

We don’t know. We haven’t tested it.

But we have had

examples with foam. It scums up the glass

for the UV lights,

and you

have

keep them clean. There are

even some that

have

windshield wipers on them put in to try

and make them

work. So,

in our opinion, the peroxide and

ozone are not

feasible at

this point without considerable

testing and

proof.

Chlorine is

the other option, and it’s the

standard

option. We say chlorine.

And

will have to be controlled

very well. The cost -- You

consider

good

control to keep

from over-chlorinating the organics

in the water. Then when

you

put chlorine in you must

dechlorinate.

MS. FRANZETTI: With respect to

staying, again, with

chlorination/dechlorination, a similar

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Page 75

The

operating costs are chemicals primarily here.

ItTs

a chemical, where it was energy before. The energy

cost

was the chlorine

lower

-- quite a bit lower.

ItTs

primarily chemicals.

THE COURT:

Dr. Lin,

do you

have

question?

DR. LIN:

Yes.

What chlorine

dose did they design?

DR.

ADAMS: It’s probably in our worksheets that we

provided. It’s probably here. I don’t remember. But I

would say we designed for residual of probably -- We

are

using sodium

hyperchloride, by the way. I did see that in

here.

I’ve

got a yearly usage that I’ll have to back out.

have

got a yearly usage here. I can do that in

few

minutes

and give it to you. And I’ve got

total

cost

for

the sodium hyperchloride. But these worksheets should have

the numbers in them somewhere. But I’ll divide that with

the

flow and get a concentration.

MS. FRANZETTI:

you

want

to do

that

now or do

it at break?

DR. ADAMS:

Let me

at break.

MR. DIMOND:

Why don’t we

do it at break. We’ll

provide the information

subsequent.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

Thank you.

ahead.

Page 76

MS. FRANZETTI: Then I’ll keep

going.

Move

on to Question 15. On page 11 -- It’s

above

the beginning of Section 5 referring on the left

the

category Environmental Impact. And

then you list categories

effluent quality,

land use, solid waste, air emissions,

electrical usage. I’m going to revise my question

little

bit and narrow it down.

With respect

your reference

to land use minus 5700

square feet, is that how much

additional area of the plant

will be

taken

up by the addition of the treatment technology

youre identifying here?

DR. ADAMS:

That’s correct.

MS. FRNZETTI: And I think we’ve

already talked

about

solid waste generation significantly

in the prior

question.

MS. GARIBAY:

Insignificant.

MS. FRANZETTI:

Insignificant. Right, exactly.

With

respect to air emissions, they would

insignificant with respect to meeting a fecal coliform

standard, correct? Am I reading that right?

DR. ADAMS:

Yes.

MS. GARIBAY:

From the actual

treatment system

itself. From the actual tanks

-- you know, the chlorine

and

dechlorination system itself,

the air emissions would

Page 77

insignificant.

MS. FRANZETTI: As differentiated from your testimony

with respect to

having

to add

on technology

meet the

thermal standards?

MS. GARIBAY: Right. For instance, an open cooling

tower. One of

the things that we keyed

in its evaluation

there are air emissions from open circuit

cooling towers.

MS. FRANZETTI: All right. Move on to

Dissolved

Oxygen, Question

16. I think you’ve answered the first part

of it, so I would like to focus instead on -- And

weTre

back

now

talking a bit about the assimilative capacity

the

Upper Dresden Island Pool.

What was the basis for your conclusion that IEPA will

implement

the proposed more stringent DO criteria as an

end-of-pipe

limit -- that that’s possible that IEPA will

implement the DO

water quality standard as an end-of-pipe

limit? For example,

have

you

ever seen that done in an MPS

permit in Illinois?

MS. GARIBAY:

Yeah.

And we had

two

reasons for our

conclusion. The first I alluded to earlier, which is an

assimilative capacity had to be done, so we would assume DO

would apply

end of pipe. In this case, we also did a bit

of homework for looking at permits in the Lower Des Plaines

watershed

to see

what has happened with DO. And there’s

been

Page

two recent permits -- recent, in

my term, meaning 2004, 2005

-- the city of

Lockport and the city of Crest Hill, where

the DO limit was applied

end of pipe.

Not only was the DO limit

applied at end of pipe,

but

was

milligrams

per liter at end of pipe. Not only was

it 6 milligrams per liter at end of pipe,

but

it was

a grab

sample at three times

week. And

was worded

as thou

shall not be below

milligrams

per liter. It wasn’t worded

as a

seven-day average

or a 30-day average. It was worded

single

grab, end of pipe, 6 milligrams per liter.

So we felt pretty comfortable

at that point with

saying we don’t know what rationale

or capacity model they

would use

look

in-stream

DO, and then we had these two

permits specific

this watershed.

MS. FRANZETTI:

Moving on --

MR. ETTINGER:

Did you look at what the dilution

was

available in

the Lockport permit or the other permit that

you

spoke of?

MS. GARIBAY: As dilution in mixing

zones, as I

mentioned earlier, we can’t presume what

would happen.

MR. ETTINGER:

you’re

presuming that there would

be no mixing zone?

MS. GARIBAY: Well, there

was no mixing zone

at these

facilities either.

Page 79

MR. ETTINGER:

I understand. But you didn’t

look

whether

there was dilution available

those particular --

MS. GARIBAY: In other

words, whether the facility

had

applied for

mixing zone and the Illinois

EPA denied it?

MR.

ETTINGER: Or what the flow was at the plants to

which those facilities were

discharged.

MS. GARIBAY: Oh, just the flatout

available

dilution?

MR.

ETTINGER:

Yes.

MS. GARIBAY:

Not

the mixing zone?

MR. ETTINGER:

Yes.

MS. GARIBAY:

Okay.

Both of them run

into creeks

and

immediately go

into the Des Plaines.

MR.

ETTINGER: And their permits were based

a flow

based on the

creek?

MS.

GARIBAY:

I don’t know.

It wasn’t

established

the fact sheet

what was done.

MR. ETTINGER:

Okay.

MS. FRANZETTI:

Move

Question 17, the

top

page

12 of your report. What do you mean by

the statement,

“Temperature and conductivity of Stepan’s

treated effluent

impacts the ability of the treated effluent to

saturate

to a

level

achieve potential DO”?

MS. GARIBAY: Dissolved oxygen is exactly that. It’s

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Page 81

around

9.2 milligrams

per

liter.

thatTs

what we’re

meaning when we say that, you

know,

there

is limitations to

how much oxygen

you

can put in a system. Those

limitations

are

temperature and conductivity, and if you were a human

being or a

water

bottle,

what altitude you’re

at.

Barometric

pressure is the other component that plays a

roll in it.

MS. FRANZETTI:

And so how is the level of DO a

factor

in the biological wastewater treatment at the Stepan

treatment

plant?

DR. ADAMS: The desired

oxygen for

bug

maintenance

and

processability is in the two to four milligrams

per

liter

range.

If we attempt

operate higher than that, we

have

two

things that happen. Number one, we displace a lot of

water because

we’re blowing in

percent nitrogen,

20 percent

oxygen. We displace

lot of water, which

generally was not

allowed for in design. I haven’t checked

that design element here, but

usually our blowers are

designed at air coming in to

give it two

three, four

milligrams per liter. Secondly, the foaming

becomes almost

unbearable. You have tremendous foaming, which

cranks

the

oxygen up.

Two, it’s

waste of energy in the tank, which you’re

not using

that.

We need two to four. Generally, two to

three

a design

number that

you use

throughout. So that’s

Page 82

requirement.

A minimum of

two,

preferably three, is -- we

have to have. Anything over that is

luxury

far

as that

system’s concerned and

possible

detriment as far as foaming

and water

displacement.

MS. FRANZETTI: Move from that and move

the

gist

my next question. Can

you

explain

then why you concluded

that

the only feasible

option would be hydrogen peroxide

addition

in order to attain dissolved oxygen standards?

DR. ADAMS:

We -- The mechanical device is

increase the oxygen. A chemical

addition are real potential

foaming

nightmares

because we’re having to get quite a bit

oxygen in to keep the level going out

the river from where

it’s put in. The other options were

just

not feasible.

Peroxide was the most economic. It was the least energy

requirement. It was a

substantial chemical

cost, but

from

all sides it was the most effective

-- cost

effective

method

with. It didn’t require any PH

control.

MS. FRNZETTI:

Stay

with

the option of hydrogen

peroxide addition.

Move to the next question, 19. Would

you, again, briefly explain how you arrived

the cost

250,000

in capital costs and annual O&M of

650,000 a

year?

DR. ADAMS: Capital cost is relatively low with

peroxide. It’s the metering.

MS. GARIBAY: It’s 25,000

in capital.

Page 83

MS. FRANZETTI:

Oh, I’m sorry.

DR. ADAMS:

Oh, I’m sorry.

Yeah.

The capital cost is

low because it’s a tank and a

metering pump. The O&M costs are

primarily chemicals, the

peroxide cost.

There is some minor labor and

electrical,

but

it’s

the peroxide.

MS. FRNZETTI: m

going

further narrow

Question 20 because I understand the

meaning of some of the

phrases

now,

but

still want to ask you

what

you

were

referring to

with

respect to

the environmental impact

effluent quality where you say

could change chemical

composition by oxidizing certain

chemicals?

DR. ADAMS: Peroxide is a very

effective chemical

oxidant.

In fact, it and ozone are considered

two of the

effective organic oxidants. Generally, a

catalyst is

needed. We’re

not using

catalyst here, so

weTre

really

not

in a good

position

predict what’s going to happen to the

organics with the peroxide.

But there will be organics

that

pass

through the

biological plant that were

nonbiodegradable. They either

were raw waste or they were metabolites

that were formed

the

bacteria during the bioprocess. Peroxide

has

potential

breaking these compounds into shorter chain and

increasing

the BOD of an

effluent. That’s a fear factor of using

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management of their wastewater

prior to discharge

the

treatment plant. So best included in-house management

wastewaters to decrease, equalize,

smooth out wastewaters,

and then the application of what

was considered best

technology, which

was a properly designed and properly

operated activated sludge facility.

Stepan --

MS. FRANZETTI: Can

interrupt

you just for a

second?

DR. ADAMS:

Yes.

MS. FRANZETTI: Dr. Adams, are

you

getting

that

information

as to

what

does constitute the best of the

exemplary OCPSF facility

from information contained in

such

EPA documents

as the control technology documents for

the

OCPSF

federal categorical standards?

DR. ADAMS:

iTil

let Robin answer the exact

regulatory --

MS. FRANZETTI: m

TI trying

understand where

the

source of your information on those plants

is coming from.

DR. ADAMS: The

source of my information was during

the

80s

and

90s

when

this was being applied in the

beginning. Exemplary

referred to -- And I believe that

is in

their properly

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Page 89

no other Stepan plants in the Midwest that make these

products.

I mean, are there

others that fall in the zip

code?

MR. ETTINGER: Right. Are there others --

MS. GARIBAY: Oh,

yes. There are definitely -- You

know, it’s a broad enough zip code that there are other

manufacturers that fall in the standard industrial

category

and would be covered under OCPSF. Flint --

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

You have to talk to us.

MS.

GARIBAY:

The

question that I rephrased was are

there other facilities that are under the same categorical

effluent limits as Stepan is

subject to; i.e., the organic

chemicals, plastics, synthetic fibers.

My answer was, if

that’s the question,

yes,

there

are, including across the

river from

Stepan,

which

is Flint Mills Resources, is an

OCPSF categorical industry.

MR. ETTINGER: And do you know of other such plants

located on general-use waters across Illinois?

MS. GARIBAY:

Yes.

MR. ETTINGER: And are they

able to comply

with

their

permits?

MS. FRNZETTI: I’ll

-- Objection. Unless she has

studied those permits.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Well,

do you have other clients in

the

Page

Midwest in that category who are discharging into general-use

waters?

MS. GARIBAY: Other

clients in the Midwest?

MR. ETTINGER:

Yes.

MR. DIMOND: I

m going

to object.

goes beyond the

scope

of her testimony.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

Are there -- Do you have

personal knowledge of other clients in Illinois who are

discharging, in this category,

general-use waters that

might

having issues with

permits? And, “1

donTt

know,

T’is

sufficient if you don’t.

Let’s narrow it. Do you have

client in Illinois

that is in this category discharging

general-use waters?

MS. GARIBAY:

Not currently.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

Thank

you.

MS. GARIBAY:

I mean, not current clients.

MS. FRANZETTI:

Let me

try

and

put this in

what

think is a

relevant

context.

Does it make a difference whether you are dealing

with a plant that had to meet OCPSF or general-use standards

from the get-go versus a plant like

Stepan

where they were

subject -- they weren’t subject

general-use standards,

they have been

subject to

secondary-contact standards,

and

now may have

face compliance with

substantially stricter

Page 91

limits? Is that making a difference in terms of why there

are limited options

here and their

cost

is relatively high?

I’m sorry. That was a rather long-winded question.

Let me

rephrase it.

What these questions are trying

grapple with is

what you said here

-- what

you

found here in terms of it

seems to be limited options, relatively high cost,

why

isnTt

this the same thing that any other OCPSF facility has

faced

the country? What’s different here?

MS.

GARIBAY: Well, on temperature, when I think

about some of our other OCPSF clients, it was an issue. As I

mentioned earlier, one of the times I sat in front of this

august

board was to ask for a perseverance from the

temperature criteria and then

site specific thermal limit

for

what was then an operating facility, which was the Borden

Chemical

Plant in Illiopolis, and we were granted a site

specific thermal

limit.

The Illiopolis

plant was an OCPSF plant when it was

running. The biological treatment system

was

sound,

well-managed OCPSF wastewater treatment system. It met those

limits. As

matter of fact, the reason we needed

alternative effluent limits is in that case they had to

nitrify.

They

had

make sure they had the bug population

destroy ammonia. In doing that, they had

add steam to

Page 92

their

wastewater treatment unit in

the

wintertime to assure

that that bug population was

viable

to meet the

ammonia

limit, which was

water quality-based ammonia limit.

However, it meant they weren’t meeting the thermal discharge

limits.

So they went through the process with IEPA creating a

variance and then through the rulemaking process. And that

rule is

still in

the

Illinois rules of site specific

temperature.

Is that what you were getting at?

MS. FRANZETTI:

Yeah.

That’s a good example.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Can I ask

question?

MS.

FRANZETTI:

Sure.

MS. WILLIAMS: s

Let talk about the

Borden facility

you were just talking about.

Did that facility also have a cooling pond

or ditch

assist with cooling treatment?

MS. GARIBAY:

When they looked at the -- When

made

the

application for both the variance and, in our testimony

to the Board,

we went through the alternatives analysis

similar to

this situation where you’re saying, “What are our

alternatives?

WeTve

got to

have

warm aeration basin. What

are our alternatives to now cool

down

to meet

the thermal

limits,”

yes,

we looked at serpentine ditches,

cooling

ponds,

Page 93

you

know,

cooling

towers,

in many ways the

same suite of

options that we looked at here.

Their effluent quality is

different. They don’t make

chemicals that could result

some

the

foaming issues, but they had some other issues

related to fouling. Out of that

analysis came the fact that

we were also faced with

a technology that was going to cause

major impacts with

respect to multi-media.

Now,

in looking at serpentine ditches and cooling

ponds for that particular facility,

was

not

viewed

as an

option both because of land availability

and where it would

have

to be

routed

to to even get to enough land or

to buy the

cornfield

next door to put in a large enough cooling

pond.

MS. WILLIAMS: Are you saying they didn’t have

serpentine ditch or that they did?

MS. GARIBAY:

They did not.

This is some of what

looked at.

MS. WILLIAMS:

For Borden?

MS. GARIBAY:

Yeah.

They had

an oxidation ditch.

That’s your biological treatment.

Yes, it did go through

serpentine ditch when

was

discharged, but it wasn’t

serpentine ditch

that was necessarily built for cooling.

MS. WILLIAMS:

But it provided some cooling?

MS. GARIBAY:

It did provide some cooling.

MS. WILLIAMS: Are you aware of any OCPSF

facilities

Page 94

for

whom cooling towers do represent best degree of

treatment?

MS.

GARIBAY:

No.

MS. WILLIAMS:

So you’re not aware of any that

use

them

or you’re not aware

that --

MS. GARIBAY: That use cooling towers after their

activated sludge system?

MS. WILLIAMS:

Correct.

MS. GARIBAY: No.

Just to

clarify, cooling towers

post their activated sludge system, right.

THE COURT:

ahead, Mr. Dimond?

MR. DIMOND: Did the court reporter

get

on the record

that

Dr. Adams had an answer

well?

HEARING OFFICER

TIPSORD:

No,

don’t believe

so.

MR. DIMOND:

Okay.

Dr. Adams,

are you

aware of

any

OCPSF facilities that use a

cooling tower following the

activated sludge treatment?

DR. ADAMS:

No.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

Thank you, Mr. Dimond.

wasn’t sure if that was an aside or an answer.

MS. WILLIAMS:

just

have one more.

Ms. Franzetti was asking

question earlier

about the

difference between

retrofitting, I

believe,

meet new

standards versus being built initially to comply with

Page

standards that are on the books. Are

you

aware

whether

the

Borden facility we

ever talking about or any other 0CPSF

facilities in Illinois preexisted the OCPSF regulations?

MS. GARIBAY:

Yes, I did.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Thank you.

Thats all.

MS. FRANZETTI:

And I may have misspoken my question,

so let

me clarify it.

With respect

to changing from general use to

-- ITm

sorry -- changing from secondary contact, less stringent

water quality standards

the more stringent proposed water

quality standards here, Borden was not facing

those

additional layers of restrictive discharge

standards,

correct?

MS. GARIBAY: No, they weren

MS. FRANZETTI:

Move

on then to my last question,

Question 23. on page 15 of your testimony, at the end of the

second paragraph, you state, ‘In our experience, the economic

reasonableness

smaller dischargers and the overall

significant multi-media impacts of technically feasible

controls ought

to be

thoroughly considered in any proposal

modify water quality

uses

or water

quality

standards.’

Would

you briefly

describe the,

quote, unquote, experience you are

referring to in this testimony?

Page

MS.

GARIBAY:

Okay.

I think,

as I mentioned

earlier,

when I first started working with Advent, I got thrown into

OCPSF right off the bat. One of the considerations EPA went

through in looking

how

define

best

practical technology

and best available technology for that industry is they

looked

at all the options. They did look at multi-media

impacts.

In the development document for OCPSF, therets

consideration of energy impacts and solid

waste.

Then they looked at the option specific to the

smaller chemical manufacturers. It was decided that the

economic

analysis

that

EPA conducted -- that for the smaller

manufacturers that BAT, best available technology,

that was

going to be required of all direct dischargers

would

not be

the basis for the smaller dischargers. And the

smaller

dischargers in the OCPSF is 5 million pounds product per

year, and it would be defined as BT or best practical

technology.

Basically, in the OCPSF process that EPA went through

in looking at

the impacts

the industry

upgrade their

treatment, they

carved

out

technologies specific

smaller

dischargers. As

well

as in

even

the

overall universe of

evaluating a technology, they looked at the

multi-media

impacts. That’s one example.

MS. FRNZETTI: Can I just ask you a follow-up on

Page

that?

I was not

aware

that.

question is,

you

say

that

for

the

smaller

dischargers that

are in the

OCPSF

standard EPA

used a BPT

instead

BAT standard,

was

the

BPT standard that

applied to

the

smaller

discharger

somewhat

lenient

than

the

BAT

standard?

MS. GARIBAY:

Yes,

was.

MS. FRANZETTI:

Oh, okay.

HEARING

OFFICER TIPSORD:

A point

of clarification.

When

you refer to EPA,

you

mean

EPA?

MS. GARIBAY:

Yes.

MS. FRANZETTI:

I dont

know

you remember

where

you

were in your

answer.

If you

wanted

add

about

your experience

MS. GARIBAY:

And then

sort of

now taking

that

to the

next level of

improving

wastewater

management

is looking

what happened

with

the water quality

standards

process.

Where

see

the consideration

of the

multi-media

impacts

and

the

feasibility of

technologies is

in consideration

by boards

such as the Illinois

Pollution

Control Board

regulatory

agencies

in looking

alternatives analysis,

whether

that

alternatives

analysis

is in

support of

alternatives

technologies,

whether that

support of

site specific

criteria,

whether

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Page 100

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29:9

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Page 101

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Page 102

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97:19

Board’s

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BOD 30:21 31:1

31:2 83:24

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Box 2:8

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18:6,10

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52:1,4,5

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80:19,22

Center 5:3

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99:2 1

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99:8

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83:23 84:3

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19:13

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88:9

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14:4

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23:16

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95:9

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characteristics

80:1

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33:11

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81:16

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38:2

49:23

Page 103

50:5,754:6

clarify7:834:4

48:22

53:6

24:24

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58:14

73:7

42:9 94:9 95:8

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conjunction

75:282:10,15

classification

comes27:24

71:19 81:6

32:20 62:21

83:11,13 85:15

84:14

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conservation

85:17,22 88:8

classified 52:2

64:23

31:6

54:1,2

56:9,13

88:22 91:16

clean 28:1

73:13 comfortable

71:7

74:14

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96:10

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68:16

chemicals 15:1,3 cleansers 55:19

47:4 78:11

83:12

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50:14,22

75:1

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coming 16:3,21

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65:3,3

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Comprehensive consider42:14

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49:24

55:18 81:18

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53:8 73:20

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89:24 90:3,8

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25:22

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Chicago 1:5,14

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73:16

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50:16

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99:14

45:2446:9

comments37:7

44:475:18

42:396:8

chiller 46:4

63:5

64:22

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97:18,19

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17:13

25:24

considerations

63:668:4

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72:5

43:23

44:2

45:1496:3

71:12,20,21

coal 46:22 47:9

committee 50:16 concept 57:24

considered 41:1

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42:20 72:14

chloride43:9,18

46:24

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concern44:7

83:14 85:14,16

43:19,24 44:21 coal-powered

company2:14

69:8

86:4,24 87:22

45:4 84:18

47:5

4:19 6:5,8

concerned37:24

95:21

98:5

chlorides 43:21

code 1:6 4:6

44:14 55:16

44:5 82:3

consisted 11:9

chlorinate 25:11

89:3,6

Company’s 8:9

concerns 45:18

12:8

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8:11

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consistent 55:23

44:2345:4

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62:9

56:285:11

chlorinating

coliform 15:5

comparing 34:6

concluded 72:17 constituents

44:22

72:276:19

competes80:7

82:6

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chlorination

coliform’s 25:10 complete 5:14

conclusion

constitute

86:11

44:2072:18,22 collect27:11,12

43:1485:12

31:12,1635:12 constructed

chlorination/d...

35:22

99:10

42:19 77:13,20

27:13

47:20

73:24

collected 25:15

complex 22:5

conclusions

consult 12:17

74:4

28:6 29:6 72:6

compliance

44:10

consultant 50:22

chlorine25:23

collecting29:23

14:19 22:1

conditions 14:20 consulted5l:6

26:4,673:18

44:3

31:13,1732:1

15:1823:14,15 consultingl3:9

73:19,22 74:18 collection 27:18

43:4

56:4 64:1

55:20 64:7,14

consume 30:17

74:19,21 75:3

colored 73:2

65:2,21 66:1

69:17

36:9

75:776:23

column52:17

68:1885:12

conductl9:11

contact95:10

chore 55:24

combination

90:24

conducted 96:11 contained

86:12

circuit 62:18

70:15,24 71:1

complies 69:2

conductivity

contaminated

77:7

72:24

comply22:21

79:21

80:8,17

53:15

city 78:2,2

combine 60:1

23:11,11,23

80:22 81:4

contemplate

claim 64:19

combined 6:19

38:7,24 58:22

confidence

88:5

clarification

38:19,20,21

72:1

89:20

28:18

context45:1 1,13

7:22 22:19

come6:23 15:17

94:24

conformed29:8

90:18

97:9

25:18

36:9

complying 24:23 confused 20:7

continuing 4:15

Page

104

continuously

62:18

contrary

56:8

contributing

63:18

control

1:1,11

2:6

16:8 25:9

25:14

27:15

50:18

56:17,24

57:4

62:7

67:20 72:19

73:20 74:1,16

74:16

82:17

85:24

86:13

88:11,20

97:20

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73:19

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43:3

54:21 74:7

95:2 1

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54:3

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46:3 47:13

56:14,19,24

57:2,7

58:12

60:14

61:8

62:24

92:23

coolant

60:2

cooler

54:22

55:1

60:20,24

61:19

62:13

coolers 60:18

cooling

12:12

46:

1,9,10,13

46:17

48:6,11

48:15,16,18

53:8 57:24

58:11 59:16,17

59:17

60:5

61:15

62:15,19

62:21

64:18,23

70:23 71:21

77:5,7

92:16

92:17,24

93:1

93 :8,12,2

1,22

93:23

94:1,6,9

94:16

copies

8:8 33:24

copper 44:8

cornfield

93:12

Corporation

6:6

correct

7:11,18

12:4

20:18

21:11

40:4

47:23

52:7,15

52:21

59:21,22

59:23 63:13

68:7

69:6

76:12,20

94:8

95:14 99:10

corrected

9:2

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8:24

correctly

61:7

87:19

cost 9: 13,15

13:20 24:21,22

24:23 29:22

50:7

56:13

62:16

67:13,24

71:2,6,7,9,15

71:17

73:20

74:15,21

75:2

75:15 82:15,16

82:20,22

83:3

83:5

84:17,17

1:2,7

costing

11:12

74:1

costs

23:18

67:8

70:23

71:2

74:3,4,5,7

74:14,22

75:1

82:21

83:4

counsel

7:19 8:8

40:2

country

91:9

County

1:12

99:3

couple

20:11

court 5:11

51:22

75:5 94:11,12

cover

16:6 64:8

covered

49:11

49:14,17

59:11

60:10

65:1

72:16

89:8

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38:23

54:4

57:20 85:1

cranks

81:20

creates

57:12

creating

58:6

92:6

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79: 15

creeks

79:12

Crest

78:2

criteria

43:4

44:1 50:20,21

51:

10,14,16

66:12

77:14

91:14

97:24

98:1

critical

3 0:23

cross-media

37:15,23

39:10

40:21,22

crystal

80:14,15

CSR

2:20

99:21

curious

17:12

current

14:12

14:16

23:14,15

34:13

35:3,5

69:17 90:16

currently

24:5

31:12,17

44:3

87:20

90:14

curve

9:2,2

customers

84:24

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daily

65:23

damage

39:6,10

39:21,23

40:4

40:5,8,15,24

42:5,15,20

Dan

6:8

11:21

12:20

data 9:1

12:21

15:9 16:23

18:15,17

19:2

23:7

26:11

0:3,5,6,18,19

1:6,9,20

32:6

34:6

36:2

43 :9, 11,

14, 16

44:3,4 64:6

67:13,17

68:22

69:

15,16, 16,18

dat&s 30:11

date 15:14

day4:15

5:22

29:19

48:6,10

48:19

59:3

65:17,22

99:14

days

48:14,15,16

deal 64:9

dealing

50:1

64:5

87:12

90:19

DEBORAH

2:9

decant

53:11,11

53:13,17

dechlorinate

73:22

dechlorination

44:20

72:18

76:24

decide

25:4 64:7

74:18

decided

26:3

96:10

deciding

45:14

decision

5:15

98:5

decisions

98:3,6

decrease

86:3

deep 60:13

defend

63:22

define

21:20

22:9

96:4

defined

30:8

88:3

96:16

definitely

31:21

43:18

89:5

definition

88:7

degrade

54:1

degrading

56:22

degree

17:22,22

54:12,19

56:2

63:15 64:12,16

64:16,23

94:1

degrees

17:9

54:7,7,8,16,17

55:2 62:23

63:12,19,21,21

64:10,24

65:5

65:7,8,11,11

65:12,12

68:9

80:18,22

delineating

11:10

delineation

13:20

deliverables

14:2

delivered

71:9

delta

21:18

demand

31:2

denied

79:4

depending

2 1:20

depends

22:5

36:7

depth

45:2

74:6

Des

1:5 4:5

14:10

18:2,21

45:10,11

77:23

79:13

describe

70:22

95:23

describes

59:14

description

36:14

71:6

design 13:21

15:21,24

16:7

16:7 21:14

50:1

57:23

60:7

63:23

64:7,14,14

65:19,24

66:1

67:6,7,9,9,10

67:10,11,11,14

67: 14,17,18,20

67:23

68:5,8

71:10

75:7

8 1:16,17,24

designed

21:

75:10 81:18

86:5,22

designing

68:17

designs

64:15

desire 4913

desired

81:10

destroy

L24

destroyed

57:13

detail

25:3 45:2

74:6

details

9:13

11:15

24:14

detergent 52:1

deteriorate

54:23

determining

41:1

detriment 82:3

84:19

develop 12:18

30:6,11

developed 30:2

developing

11:19 30:13

50:7

development

12:9 96:7

device 16:8

60:22 82:9

devices

39:15

64:18

diagram 29:4

dialogue 43:10

Diers2:9 11:3,4

11:16,19 12:1

12:5,17,22,24

13 :2,8,16,22

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sewers 52:2,3

sheet 79:17

sheets

66:17

shiver

61:20

shocking 54:13

shocks 55:1

short 48:23

shorter 83:23

84:3

shorthand 1:13

99:7,9,19

show 48:5

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showing 59:2

88:17

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shows 15:15

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88:19

Shundar 2:4

4:11

side3l:4 52:17

sides 60:15

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significant

47:18,19,23

95:20

significantly

76:14

similar 18:6

19:7 26:23

51:14 70:18

73:24 80:3,6

92:2 1

Similarly 80:11

Simon 6:7

simple 17:2 1

19:13 21:9

simply 6:23 8:14

9:2

since

50:21

single 6:19

78:10

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sinks 30:16,19

30:23 35:21

36:2,10

sit

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site 12:21 28:6

29:6 51:10,14

51:15,15 91:14

91:16 92:8

97:23

sitting 27:14

situation 25:23

49:24 92:21

skip 51:4 52:12

sky

73:9

slew

14:13

sludge 37:18

50:6 53:12,13

53:17 54:4

68:1 73:5

86:6

86:22 87:1,2,4

87:14 94:7,10

94:17

sludges 53:18

sludge/solids

38:1

small 17:24

19:24 44:22

smaller 18:9

95:19 96:10,11

96:14,14,20

97:2,5

smooth

86:3

soap

51:24

soaps 55:19

sodium 75:11,16

solar 64:8

solely 5:1

solicited 12:15

solid 47:18,19

74:19 76:5,14

84:21 96:8

solids 37:19

solubilize 80:12

solubilizing 80:5

solude 80:3,12

solve

26:2

some

6:20 8:5,24

9:13 10:10

11:14 16:19

17:15 18:10

21:4 23:18

26:21

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41:8,13 43:9

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47:2 5 1:10,18

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63:9,10 64:21

68:22

71:4

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73:13 83:5,8

87:21 91:11

93:4,4,15,22

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someone 21:20

someplace

2:24

something 39:14

40:11 48:8

56:14 58:15

60:1

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37:20 38:3

somewhat 97:5

somewhere 28:3

54:11 58:12

75:17

sophisticated

87:1,6

sophistication

87:8

sorry 36:10

47:24

51:5

54:15 83:1,2

91:3 95:10

sort 26:20 30:10

30:15,18 50:18

73:8 88:8,21

97:15

sound 91:19

source 25:9,14

25:15 27:15

28:15 72:19

85:24

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8:11,20

sources

16:10

22:6

25:15

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3 1:4,4,5 35:22

36:2,8,9 45:9

69:19 70:1

South 2:12

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speak 5:10,11

33:12 34:19

52:17 61:9

special 61:18

specializing

13:13

species 45:2

specific 14:22

15:1 31:23

51:10, 14, 15, 15

78:14 91:14,17

92:8 96:9,20

97:23

specifically

11:7

24:20 25:2

33:2

specifics 15:6

spell 10:6

spending 74:10

spills 65:23,24

spoke 5 1:23

78:18

spray 60:4,20

62:13

sprayer 60:4,14

60:18

spread 27:13,16

72:4

spreading

62:14

spring 25:13

Springfield 2:8

square 76:9

84:20

SS99:2

stability 54:23

stable 5 5:20

staff 4:14 5:14

standard 19:6

19:24 21:17

22:10 24:15

3 1:13,18 32:20

35:15 44:18

65:16 66:2,20

69:6,14 72:2

73:18 76:20

77:16 87:5

89:7 97:3,4,4,6

standards 1:4

4:4

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17:14 19:1

20:1,3,9,17

23:12 24:9

31:22 32:1

34:5,7,8,9,12

34:13,21

35:3

35:6 36:15

38:8 39:1

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44: 14,15,16

45:4 49:20

50:3

51:7,13

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71:10 77:4

82:8 84:14

86:14 88:10

90:20,22,23

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95: 12,13,22

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standpoint

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start 6:14

30:15

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64:2

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started

13:12

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starting 15:15

starts 52:17

start-up 71:16

state 1:13,14

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30:2,8 45:8

47:17

51:9

56:5 57:11

85:9

95:18

99:1,8

stated 85:4

statement

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3 1:16 36:20

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79:20

station 46:24

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statistical 66:14

Page 118

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statistics

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stay54:18

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staying 73:23

steam 91:24

steel 49:23

stenographic

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step 63:7

Stepan 2:14

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6:5,8 8:9

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16:

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19:17,23 20:9

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35:3 36:18,22

38:7 42:2,10

43 :2,5,9 44:3,6

45:20 46:12,20

47:2,2,5 52:19

53:2 55:15

62:8 63:16

67:1,1 69:4

71:24 72:3

80:17 81:8

84:13 85:13

86:6 87:1,20

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88:24

89:1,12

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Stepan’s 17:15

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18:18,21 19:24

20:8,11,12,16

25:14 26:12

40:20,21 42:4

53:23 58:22

79:2 1

Stephanie 2:9

11:3

stick 61:1

sticking

60:19

still

16:5 17:15

18:7 58:16

69:5

83:9

92:8

stops 80:5

storage 74:17

store 53:18

storm 28:19,23

29:6

stormwater

53: 14,14

straight 18:7

streams 53:1

street 1:14 2:16

5:18

stricter

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strike 45:23

47:11,16

stringent 77:14

95:10,11

studied 89:23

studies

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study 11:16,20

13:17,23 15:4

30:7,14 37:16

52:14

stuff4l:13 57:2

68:1 80:21

subject 43 : 12

89:12 90:22,22

90:23

submitted 33:10

subsequent

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substantial

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substantially

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substantiated

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sudden 15:1

84:4

sufficient 90:11

suite 93:1

sulfate 44:2

45:4

84:19

summarizing

7:19

summary 32:6

41:23 87:19

summer 45:2 1

54:20 55:23

supervised

13:3

supervising

13:20

supervision

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supplement

62:13 85:19

supplied 47:5

suppliers 12:20

support 10:11

50:17 51:14

71:13 97:22,23

sure 6:3 7:23

14:1 29:8

39:24 44:12

51:1 61:14

64:13 87:18

91:23 92:13

94:20

surface 59:18

60:7 63:1

Survey

30:9

Susan2:17 33:4

49:6

suspect

32:23

sustained

67:14

swear 6:2

swing 56:2

swore 41:15

sworn

6:11,13

1:7,12,18

42:7

synthetic 50:15

89:13

system 1:5 4:5

17:19,24 25:9

26:4 53:24

54:24 55:3,5

56:18

57:5

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66:7

67:10,10

72:5

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systems 10:6

19:12 26:16,16

26:17 28:24

49:19 57:3

67:23

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72:4

87:3

system’s 82:3

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table 9:3

tables 9:14

24:21

take 17:22 23:13

30:16 48:21

51:8 55:1,7

57:1,6 58:7

60:24 61:8,9

66:6,15 67:13

70:6 98:10

taken 1:11 48:17

60:11

76:10

99:12

taking

14:3

17:18 44:1

55:8 97:15

talk 89:9 92:14

talked23:19

53:10

76:13

talking 37:12

40:6 66:4,5

67:9 69:9 70:7

77:11 92:15

95:2

talks 39:20

tank 25:21

26:23

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60:20,20 72:9

81:22 83:3

87:2

tanks 25:8,10

26:19,21 29:18

53:11 59:18

60:12,13 62:4

62:5 63:1

72:21 74:15

76:23

Tanner

2:3 4:9

task 11:20 44:12

47:10 66:24

team 11:22,23

12:19 38:5

technical 4:14

13:18 14:2

35:16

50:17

57:7 85:18

98:4

technically

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technological

50:3

technologies

11:13 17:6

3 8:22,24 40:23

59:19,20 62:7

72:13

85:14,23

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technologies/p...

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technology 10:8

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63:14 70:23

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77:3

86:5,13

88:3

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96: 17,22

technology-ba...

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tell 50:9 52:24

temperature

10:5 11:7

12:9

12:12,14

15:5

15:7,23

16:1,8

16:24,24

17:3

17:3,7,20,23

18:6 19:18

21:19

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30:22 38:16,17

39:11 42:15

46:16 48:7

53:20 54:14,21

54:22 55:3,9

55:21

56:1,17

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57:4

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61:5,16

61:20

62:1,7

62:20

64:5

65:11 66:2,23

67:20

68:3

69:20 70:1,18

79:21

80:11,11

81:4 91:10,14

92:9

temperatures

Page 119

16:15,21 18:11

23:10 45:21

58:13 69:24

temperature’s

80:18

ten 22:11

ten-minute

48:2 1

term 39:21 40:8

40:10 46:16

78:1

86:23

terms

21:7

52:13

91:1,6 97:24

98:1

tertiary 86:23

tested 73:11

testified

1:6,9

57:19

testifiers

5:1

testify 6:20

49:16

testifying 4:19

6:7,9 50:11

testimony 4:16

4:17,22,23

5:23 6:15

7:5

7: 10,13,17,20

10:12 13:6

37:3 41:10

42:1,2 45:7

47:17 48:8

49:14

56:5

57:12,22 59:14

63:10 70:22

72:13 77:2

85:10 87:19

90:6 92:19

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testing 45:1

73:16 84:1

text 32:14 33:23

thank 5:24 7:21

7:23

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52:8 55:6

57:10 59:10

75:24 90:15

94:19 95:5

98:7

Thanks 5:23

24:10

their 6:14 9:3

14:

12,15,16, 18

15:3 23:5 32:6

43: 10,11,13

45:16 47:2

51:13,16 53:17

72:6 79:14

86:1,22 87:7

88:15,19 89:20

91:2 92:1 93:2

94:6,10 96:19

98:5

themselves

57:16

thermal 17:18

18:18 19:12

20:19 21:4,5,7

22:5 56:3

66:22 69:13

74:1,7 77:4

91:14,17 92:4

92:23

thing 28:1,8,8

58:1 64:5,18

64:22 69:1

84:16 91:8

things 20:11

22:5

25:16

30:16 49:13

59:24 68:23

69:19 73:9

77:6 80:6

81:13

think 9:12 15:6

15:19 20:7

21:5,7 22:2

24:11 27:10

30:1

33:8,14

33:15,21

37:17

38:19

39:4,9

40:1,14 41:4,4

41:6,7,8,9,10

41:21 42:6,17

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51:4 52:13

53:8 55:6,12

55:17 59:11

62:2 63:10,11

64:8 70:19

72:15,19 76:13

77:9 84:16

85:20 86:23

90:18 91:10

96:1

thinking 41:19

Thirdly 60:12

Thomas 2:2,13

4:12

thoroughly

95:2 1

thou

78:7

though

37:10

64:19

thought 32:2 1

thousand 18:21

three 37:4,12

38:15 51:23

61:11 63:12,19

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64:24

65:5,7,7

65:12

67:16

68:9

71:14

72:21

78:7

1:18,24 82:1

84:10

three-degree

15:24 16:6

threw 3 7:24

through 28:20

29:6 33:9

47:13 48:13

52:24 57:16

58:6 60:2

64:20 70:12

83:19 92:6,7

92:20 93:19

96:4,18

throughout

55:11 72:4

8 1:24

throw 80:14,15

thrown 50:13

96:2

time 5:11 12:24

14:8 15:6

16:24 19:16,17

23:2,2 24:2

1:14,21 32:5

34:23

35:2

51:2 61:2

63:18 64:3

68:2,4,5 87:11

88:7,8

times 39:14

54:18 62:24

70:11 71:14

78:7

91:12

Tipsord 1:10 2:2

4:1,2 5:24 6:10

6:14,24 7:4,11

7:21

8:4,16

9:5

9:17 10:13,21

15:12 17:10

18:14 22:23

24:11 29:13

32:9 33:3,17

34:2,10,18

37:8,21 40:11

41:6,11,19

42:6,10 43:1

46:7,15 47:7

48:21 49:1

59:9 75:24

89:9 90:7,15

94:14,19 97:9

98:9

titled 7:10

8:9

10:5

today 4:8,16

5:23

6:5 55:19

together 17:23

25:18

toilets 26:18,19

Tom 6:4 11:23

tomorrow 5:17

tons 39:2 57:20

85:1,2,2

tool44:1

top 15:8 58:10

60:4

65:10

79:19

total 29:2 1

43:23

75:15

84:12

touched

39:8

towards 15:16

tower

47:

53:8 62:16,19

70:24 71:21

77:6 94:16

towers 46:1,5,9

46:10,13

59:17

62:15

64:23

77:7 93:1 94:1

94:6,9

toxicity 45:1,5

toxics

50:17

trail

7:22

trailed 46:15

transcribed

99:12

transcript

1:9

99:11

transfer

39:13

39:15

58:5

transferring

39:12 57:14

58:10

translate 69:3

transport 64:2

treat 42:5,15

53:16

treated 18:12

27:2,3 28:12

28:13

53:17

79:21,22

treating

88:12

88:

14,15

treatment

17:6

18:12 25:18

26:7 27:3,6,8

27:20 28:6,7

28:13 29:2,3,5

29:7 49:18,19

50:5 52:20

53 :2,6,21,22

53:24

55:4,10

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59:18,21

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81:9 85:14,16

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Page

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tremendous

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triangle

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tried

32:16

trouble

45:21

true

42:11 99:10

truly 61:4

try

6:17 8:13

25: 8, 10,

49:8

73:14

90:17

trying

17:20

40:9

52:1

56:17

64:15

86:17

91:5

TSS 55:3

turn 5:7

Twait

43:11

44:6

twice

49: 13

74:22

two6:16

13:12

22:5 25:7

1:22 37:3,12

49:15

60:8

62:23

63:15

64:15 71:14

77:19

78:1,13

81:11,13,18,22

81:23,23

82:1

83:14 87:3,5

two-degree

61:17

two-sludge

87:4

two-stage 87:3

88:5

type

19:9

36:21

40:5 49:19

68:17

types

35:24

52:18

typical

68:8

Typically

21:5

35:19

Uh-huh

18:16

72:11

ultimate 31:1,1

69:3

unable

32:17.22

unbearable

8 1:20

uncertainties

16:7

uncertainty

17:5

64:10,17

under 13:6

14:16 23:17

34:8

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88:4 89:8,11

understand

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32:19

43:22 57:10

61:7 65:14,15

66:4,9 79:1

83:8

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87:

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understanding

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30:13,15

31:9

34:11

50:20

68:7

unexchanged

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unfortunately

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39:13

unit

88:13,16,17

92:1

units 9:1

universe 96:2 1

unknown 84:8

unless

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unquote

95:23

until

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upgrade

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Upper 30:3

31:12,16 34:12

34:21 70:7

77:12

84:14

upsets 55:1

65:24 66:1

upstream 16:10

18:24 19:5,10

23:4 37:4 45:8

69:19

usage

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use

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16:6 21:13

34:13,23

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58:14 62:4

63:4

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81:24

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94:4,6,16

95:9

used 12:9,12,15

18:15 23:2

38:3 40:8

46:17 60:23

63:11 67:12

73:4

97:3

uses

95:22

using 15:21

39:21 40:16

58:5,11,14,19

65:15 72:23

75:11

81:23

83:16,24

usually 58:11

67:16 81:17

utilities 46:20,24

47:6

utility

53:6

utilization 38:2

UV72:24

73:2

73:12

vacuum 51:3

variable 55:18

variables 22:13

variance

92:7,19

variances

97:24

variation

66:7

varies 63:17

various 52:18

53:4

vary 70:8

vast

12:11

velocity

64:20

vendor 71:

vendors 12:16

64:15

verbally

8:14

versus

90:2

94:24

very 19:24

25:19

25:19,22 26:5

26:5,23 30:23

54:17 55:4,22

56:6

72:24

73 :3,9,10,20

74:15

80:13

83:13 87:1,6,8

98:7

viable 92:2

viewed

93:9

violation

21:16

visit

12:22

visits

12:2 1

volatile 50:6

volt 58:7

volume 10:9

62:13

volumetric

18:3

W2:13

Wacker2:12

wait 5:7,8

want 20:13

26:10 33:19,20

55:19 70:19

75:19

83:9

wanted

6:17

97:13

wanting

56:1

warm

16:5

18:13 45:9

92:22

warmer

16:3

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warming 17:15

Washington

2:16

wash-downs

53:4

wasn’t 47:10

74:12

78:8

79:16 93:20

94:20

waste 26:17,17

26:18

28:16

47:18,19

53:1

76:5,14

81:22

83:21 84:21

96:8

wastewater

12:7

13:13

18:11

29:1,3,5,7,23

46:12

49:18,22

52:18,19,19,24

53:2,3,11,20

53:21,22 54:2

55:10,10

57:13

58:22

59:19,21

60:8 63:17

68:17 72:1,6

73:2

80:17,21

81:8

85:11

86:1

87:21

88:13,16

91:20

92:1

97:16

wastewaters

18:13 53:7

61:19

86:3,3

water

1:4,5

4:3

5:4

10:8 16:2

17:14,14 18:24

19:5,10,22,23

20:2,8.9,12,17

21:8,16

25:22

28:19,23

29:6

30:4,8,12,2

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35:20.23

38:8

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50:2,5,15,17

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5 1:6,13,22

52:6

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63:6

68:19

69:4,5

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