ORiGINAL
Page 1
BEFORE
THE ILLINOIS
POLLUTION
CONTROL
BOARD
IN THE MATTER
OF:
WATER QUALITY
STANDARDS
AND
EFFLUENT
LIMITATIONS
FOR
THE
CHICAGO AREA
WATERWAY
SYSTEM
AND THE LOWER
DES PLAINES
RIVER:
PROPOSED
AMENDMENTS TO
35
Ill.
Adm.
Code Parts
301, 302,
303
and
304
RECEIVED
CLERK’S
OFFICE
SEP
08
2009
STATE
OF ILLINOIS
Pollution
Control Board
No. R08-9
REPORT
OF PROCEEDINGS
had
before
the
ILLINOIS
POLLUTION
CONTROL BOARD
held on
August
14,
2009,
at
9:00 T
o
clock
a.m.
at
the
Thompson
Center,
Room-9-40,
Chicago,
Illinois.
Page 2
1
APPEARANCES:
2
ILLINOIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD:
MS.
MARIE
TIPSORD, Hearing Officer
MR. THOMAS E. JOHNSON,
Member
6
MS. ALISA LIU,
Environmental Scientist
MR. LIN SHUNDAR, Member
8
MS. ANDREA MOORE, Member
9
10
ILLINOIS
ENVIRONMENTAL
PROTECTION AGENCY:
11
Ms. Stefanie Diers
12
Ms. Deborah Williams
13
14
ENVIRONMENTAL LAW AND POLICY CENTER
15
33 East Wacker Drive, Suite 1300
16
Chicago, Illinois
60601
17
(312)
795-3707
18
BY:
MR. ALBERT ETTINGER and JESSICA DEXTER
19
Appeared on behalf
of ELPC, Prairie
Rivers
20
Network and Sierra
Club;
21
22
23
24
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1
CHAIRMAN
TIPSORD:
Good morning,
2
everyone.
My name is Marie Tipsord,
and
3
I’ve been
appointed
by
the Board
to serve
as
4
hearing officer in
this proceeding
entitled
5
“Water Quality
Standards and Effluent
6
Limitations for the Chicago
Area Waterway
7
System
and Lower Des Plaines River,
Proposed
8
amendments
35 IL Adm Code 301, 302,
303 and
9
304. This is
docket number R08-9.
10
With
me today
to
my
immediate
11
left
is acting chairman
G.
Tanner
Girard,
12
the presiding
board member. To his
13
immediate left is board
member Shundar Lin
14
and
to my far right board member Andrea
15
Moore will
be joining us. To my
immediate
16
right is Alisa Liu from
out technical unit.
17
Nicole Meyer will
be
joining
us. She is our
18
extern this
semester. She should
be
down
in
19
a
little bit
as
well.
20
This is our 32nd
day
of
21
- hearings. We
are continuing
to
hear
22
z
testimony from members of
the public
today,
23
and
today
the focus of the hearing
is to
24
hear
testimony from Dr. David Thomas.
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Page
6
1
and
we need more
chairs,
there
are plenty
of
2
chairs
over here.
We
can
set
them
up
back
3
there
or over here
on the
side.
And they
4
will have
to
sit in
the
front row.
5
Dr. Girard,
do you have anything
6
at
this point?
7
MEMBER
GIRARD:
Good
morning,
and
8
welcome
to day
No.
32.
I see
these are
the
9
hard
core participants
on Friday
morning.
10
We have
a
little
smaller audience
and
itis
11
kind of
like church,
nobody
wants
to
sit
in
12
the
front row.
We look forward
to
your
13
testimony
and questions
today.
14
CHAIRMAN
TIPSORD:
With that,
15
Albert?
16
MR. ETTINGER:
Did you
swear
in
the
17
witness
yet?
18
CHAIRMAN
TIPSORD:
Do
you want to
19
introduce
him before
we
swear him
in?
20
MR. ETTINGER:
This
is Dr. David
21
Thomas.
22
CHAIRMAN TIPSORD:
Thank
you.
Can
23
we have
the witness
sworn.
24
(Witness
sworn.)
Page 7
1
DAVID I. THOMAS,
PH.D.,
2
having
been first duly sworn,
was
examined and
3
testified as
follows:
4
MR. ETTINGER:
I
guess
we will offer
5
into evidence Dr. Thomas’ pre-filed
6
testimony.
7
THE COURT:
If there’s no objection
8
we will mark the pre-filed testimony of
9
Dr. David Thomas
as
Exhibit No. 327.
Seeing
10
none, it’s Exhibit No. 327.
11
(Document
marked as Exhibit
12
No. 327 for identification.)
13
AUDIENCE MEMBER:
Ten exhibits per
14
hearing day it
looks like.
15
CHAIRMAN TIPSORD:
Pretty close.
16
And then did
you
want
to go
straight
to
17
questions?
18
MR. ETTINGER:
Yes.
19
EXAMINATION
20
BY MS.
FRANZETTI:
21
Q.
With that,
good
morning, Dr.
Thomas.
22
My name is Suzanne Franzetti. I represent Midwest
23
Generation. To my right
is Greg Seibert, and
I
24
will
be
asking
you
the questions
today,
and they
Page
8
1
are basically the pre-filed questions
by
Midwest
2
Gen. Am I correct in assuming that
you
have
a
3
copy
of those questions in front of
you?
4
A.
Yes, I
do.
5
Q.
With
respect to my questions, when
6
I’m referring
to
your
pre-filed testimony,
I
am
7
referring
to
what has now been marked
as
8
Exhibit 327.
9
With that, I’m going
to
begin
10
with
question No.
1:
“Have
you
conducted any QHEI
11
surveys in the upper Dresden Pool and/or in the
12
Chicago Sanitary & Ship Canal?
13
A.
No.
14
Q.
So we can skip the follow-up
15
question. Let’s move
to question 2.
16
Have
you
conducted QHEI
surveys
17
anywhere else?
18
A.
Not
formally QHEI.
I have done
19
habitat studies,
but
not
a
formal QHEI survey.
20
Q.
And I will
get to
those habitat
21
studies in the very
next question. So let’s
go to
22
that.
23
Question 3, “Have
you
ever
24
conducted any
type
of
aquatic life or habitat
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Page 10
1
on aquatic wild. Then
more recently I have been
2
on the waterway system again
for looking
at
3
habitats which was
a
more recent trip
before this
4
hearing.
5
Q.
Was
this most recent trip in
6
preparation for this hearing?
7
A.
That
1scorrect.
8
Q.
Okay.
Let me
just go back and ask
9
you
some follow-up
questions regarding that
10
answer.
11
So
in
1991 you conducted
a
12
survey
that started
at
the Stickney
plant?
13
A.
Correct.
14
Q.
And went north of there,
correct?
15
A.
Correct.
16
Q.
So you
have
not conducted any
17
habitat survey for that portion
of the waterways
18
included in this
rulemaking that is located
19
downstream of the Stickney
plant, correct?
20
A.
I
have
not done any
habitat surveys
21
per
se.
I’ve been,
a number of times,
to the
22
electric barrier. I
actually helped collect
some
23
round gobies
with one of our grad
students that
24
was doing some work
on the round gobies
in the
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Page
16
1
little difficult for
you
to
estimate the aerial
2
extent of
the
habitat
you are describing,
but
can
3
you, as best you
can, in
the
Empress
casino area,
4
estimate, was that
about an acre or less than
-- a
5
smaller area than the spillway area? However
you
6
can--
7
A.
I mean,
you can
see about a
half
8
mile
up
and downstream.
Obviously a more
9
restricted area in front of
you, but you are
10
actually going
to be
able
to
observe
vegetation,
11
but I could get a good overview. Plus one of
the
12
EA reports had lots
of photographs
up
and down
the
13
pool,
so
I had some context
to put
what I was
14
seeing with other
areas that I couldn’t
get to
15
without
a boat.
16
Q.
Okay.
As
you say, so you
had
17
referred
to an EA report?
18
A.
Absolutely.
19
Q.
As part of your preparation for
and
20
during these
observations
you
made?
21
A.
That’s correct.
22
Q.
Which EA report?
23
A.
It might
have been an attachment
to
24
the testimony. There’s
a lot of colored
Page 17
1
photographs.
2
Q.
It might have been attached
to
3
Mr. Seibert’s testimony that’s been filed in this
4
proceeding?
5
A.
I think
so, yes.
6
Q.
Did
you
basically find that
your
7
observations in the areas
you
went
to
were
8
consistent
with
what had been reported in the EA
9
report
you
were referring
to?
10
A.
Yeah, I would
say pretty much.
I
11
don’t remember my overview description in
those
12
reports of
the
aquatic
weed beds,
but
it may
have
13
been in there.
14
Q.
Did
you get into the waters in the
15
Brandon tail water area?
16
MR. ETTINGER:
What
do you
mean
by
17
get into the water?
18
MS. FRANZETTI:
I’m
sorry.
That was
19
bad language. I wasn’t asking if
you went
20
swimming.
21
THE WITNESS:
I
did not.
22
MS. FRANZETTI:
Let me revise
that.
23
BY MS. FR.ANZETTI:
24
Q.
Did
you go
into
the area known
as
Page
18
1
the Brandon tail waters?
2
A.
No, I did not
physically.
I would
3
have loved
to
have gone down there with
a
seine
4
and collect the fish,
but
I did not
get
into the
5
water at all.
6
Q.
Did you get into the area
at
all?
7
Did
you
walk along --
8
A.
I was
by
the bridge there. There
is
9
a
bridge going right down below.
I was on the
10
bridge looking upstream and downstream.
11
Q.
From
the
bridge?
12
A.
Right.
13
Q.
So you did not wade along the
14
shoreline looking
at
habitat?
15
A.
No.
16
Q.
Did you in these other areas that
17
you
went
to?
18
A.
No.
19
Q.
So you did not wade along the
20
shoreline?
21
A.
No. Although
as
I said,
by
seeing
22
herons and
egrets out in the water, it gave me
a
23
very
good
idea of what
the water depth was what
24
where I saw them.
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Page 25
1
So they
have the
data
from the other pools,
2
Marseilles
and Starved Rock and some of the
3
others
downstream,
but
the biggest aquatic
4
vegetation
beds
are in the Dresden Pool.
5
MR. ETTINGER:
I haven’t had you
6
read your testimony and background, but
it
7
might be
useful for
you just to
explain what
8
your
role was in the Natural History Survey
9
since we are talking
so
much
about
it.
10
THE WITNESS:
Well, I had two roles
11
actually. I started
my career in the
12
Natural
History Survey in the 1960’s
as a
13
field biologist working
on the Kaskaskia
14
River, so a
lot of my large river experience
15
occurred on the Kaskaskia, and then
in --
16
I’m
bad
on my
dates
-- but
for the last
ten
17
years or
so
I was
chief of the Illinois
18
Natural History Survey. So I review a lot
19
of the reports. I
actually was
out
on the
20
Illinois
River electro-fishing and sampling
21
with some of our crews
at
our Havana station
22
and
out
of ourz four biological
stations
and
23
also our station
down in Dolton in the lower
24
Illinois
River and Missouri River in Pool
Page 26
1
26. Because I was particularly
interested
2
in innovative species, I was
out with some
3
of our crews
at
times looking
at
the
4
invasive species issues in the Illinois
5
River.
So that was an area of particular
6
interest
where I
got
more involved in
7
actually some of the
data collection than in
8
some of the other areas where I was
more of
9
an oversight rule.
10
MR. ETTINGER:
And
you ceased to be
11
chief of the Natural
History Survey when?
12
THE WITNESS:
The end of February
of
13
last year.
14
MR. ETTINGER:
Thank
you.
We’re
15
talking
so
much about the Natural History
16
Survey, I thought I ought
to
explain where
17
that came from.
18
BY MS. FRANZETTI:
19
Q.
Dr.
Thomas,
you mentioned the
study
20
of aquatic vegetation in the late 1980’s. Is
that
21
study
cited in your testimony?
22
A.
No,E
it is not.
23
Q.
Is a
written report of that
study
24
available;
do you
know?
Page 27
1
A.
Yes, it is. I think actually it was
2
done -- well, I’m trying
to
think -- I think it
3
was done for Corn Ed actually,
but
I could pull
out
4
a
reference.
5
Q.
That’s okay.
If
you
have one handy,
that
would
be
great.
Just to
try and give
a
7
little more clarity
to
the record in terms of what
8
study
this is.
9
A.
Yes. It was
the final report
went
10
to
Commonwealth
Edison Company of Chicago
at that
11
time. It
was
dated
July of 1992. The title of it
12
was, “Des Plaines River Long-Term Monitoring
13
Program,
Vegetation Analysis and Habitat
14
Characterization.” And the authors were
Pamela
15
Tazik,
T-A-Z-I-K and Steven Sobaski.
16
Q.
For the court reporter’s benefit,
17
would
you
please spell the last name?
18
A.
Sobaski is S-O-B-A-S-K-I.
19
Q.
Now,
you
also mentioned --
20
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:
Excuse me,
21
Ms.
Franzetti. Is it possible for
us to get
22
a copy
of that report for the record?
23
THE
WITNESS:
I don’t have the
whole
24
report
with me. This is
just a
cover
page,
Page 28
1
and I think maybe
the executive summary.
Is
2
that what it is?
3
MS. DEXTER:
We
could get copies of
4
it.
5
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:
If we
6
could
get a full
copy
of it.
7
MR. ETTINGER:
I think it’s
about
8
yeah big (indicating).
9
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:
We
can
10
reserve a Hearing Exhibit now if
you’d like,
11
and
you
can give
us the one
copy as
an
12
exhibit.
13
MR.
ETTINGER:
We’ll
get you a copy.
14
I don’t know that we want
to supply
a copy,
15
too many copies,
so
we’ll
see
how it is.
16
HEARING OFFICER
TIPSORD:
Well, if
17
you
can
get us a copy, we can always scan
18
it.
19
MR.
ETTINGER:
We will
get you a
20
copy.
21
-
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:
And then
22
p-eople can
get it from the website.
23
BY MS. FRANZETTI:
24
Q.
Dr. Thomas,
you
mentioned there
was
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Page
38
1
Q.
Are there flood plane pools
as
2
you’ve
just
defined them in the Upper Dresden
3
Island pool
from
1-55 up
to
the north end of the
4
pool?
5
A.
No, I think what
you have in that
6
pool, which
you
also find in much of
our rivers --
7
Q.
I’m sorry
to
interrupt
you.
“No,
8
there
are no
flood plane pools in the Upper
9
Dresden Island Area”?
10
A.
I don’t believe
I would -- I’d have
11
to
check into that. I don’t believe there is.
A
12
the
typical flood
plane pools,
you
have these
back
13
channels and other habitat that’s somewhat
14
similar.
When
I say flood plane pools,
you have
15
the whole variety of the connected
back water area
16
that’s always connected
to
the river, Something
17
far up
into
the flood plane -- and that may
be
18
only flooded every four or
five years. We
don’t
19
have that range of habitat
out at
the Dresden
20
Island pool. But we
do have some of the back
21
water areas that I would assume,
many of them,
22
serve some function
as at
least
a
back water
type
23
of pool.
24
Q.
But
you
have not
studied that?
Page 39
1
A.
That’s correct.
2
Q.
Moving on
to question
5. During the
3
12-year
period from May 1985 through November 1997
4
when you
were director of the Illinois Waste
5
Management
and Research Center, did your job
6
responsibilities involve projects that focused on
7
aquatic habitat quality
and/or aquatic biology
8
and? If you
feel you’ve already referred
to
any
9
studies
in that time period that qualify as having
10
focused
on aquatic habitat quality or biology,
11
please
just
point those out to
me. You don’t need
12
to
repeat
what those studies were.
13
A.
Yeah, I did mention the
Calumet
14
studies.
We also had studies on Waukegan Harbor.
15
On Crab Orchard, and again,
a
lot of those studies
16
-- there were also studies up
in Rock River.
Most
17
of those
studies were focused on the effects and
18
the role of contaminants on those systems
on
19
aquatic organisms.
20
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:
Mr.
Lin?
21
MEMBER LIN:
Most of those you
22
contracted
out
the whole summer?
23
THE WITNESS: That’s correct.
24
MEMBER LIN:
So you are not involved
Page
40
1
in
that
research?
2
THE
WITNESS:
Right. We
contracted
3
out
various studies. Although,
I
have
to
4
say,
we
did work
with
a number
of
the
5
researchers
to
sort
of
focus
sometimes their
6
studies. They
had
planned
to
address what
7
we
thought
were
some
of
the
more
pressing
8
issues.
9
BY
MS.
FRANZETTI:
10
Q.
Moving
on
to
Question 6,
Dr.
Thomas.
11
During
the
subsequent
11-year
period
from
12
December
1997
through
February 2008,
when
you
were
13
the
chief
of
the
Illinois Natural
History Survey,
14
did
you
perform
any
field
surveys of
aquatic
15
habitat
or
conduct
any
QHEI
surveys
of
the
river?
16
A.
Well,
I
certainly didn’t do
any
QHEI
17
surveys
because
our
staff
are
really
involved
with
18
the
long-term
monitoring.
Let
me
give
you
a
19
couple
things.
I
stayed
involved in
--
20
Q.
Actually, before you
do.
So
I
21
understand,
no,
you
didn’t
do
any
QHEI
surveys
of
22
the
river.
Did
you
perform
any
field
surveys
of
23
the
aquatic
habitat?
24
A.
I was
involved
with
survey
staff
and
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Page
42
1
Havana
area of the
Illinois
River,
and I’ve been
2
on the Illinois
River
Science
Advisory
Committee,
3
which is an
advisory committee
to the
lieutenant
4
governor’s
advisory
council
on the Illinois
River.
5
So
I’ve
stayed involved
in sort
of
river
issues
6
through those.
7
Q.
Question
7:
“Please
describe
your
8
experience
in handling
projects
that involve
constructing
improvements
to
the
physical habitat
10
in a
river
and the resulting
effects
on the
11
aquatic
fishing
community?”
12
A.
Well, I’m
not sure I
can give
you
13
the
resulting
effects
but
from --
14
Q.
Let’s
start with
-- tell me
about
15
projects
that you handled
that
involved
16
constructing
improvements
to
physical
habitats in
17
a
river?
18
A.
I’m
just
trying
to
think
of the
19
dates.
I worked
for
five
and
a
half
years for an
20
engineering
firm in
Boston, Massachusetts,
and
21
they did
a lot of work
on hydro facilities,
small
22
head
hydros in
New
England,
large
hydro
23
facilities,
pump
storage
projects,
and some
of the
24
work through
them was
looking at
mitigation
Page
43
1
projects,
particularly for plum storage
where
you
2
have a
lot of drawdown during the week of
water.
3
And so
we were looking
at
creating
artificial
4
pools
that would maintain water so
when the water
5
was drawn down, you
could maintain shallower water
6
habitat for some
fish, like sun fish and that,
7
they
could
use
them for spawning. So I
have
been
8
involved in some mitigation projects
with large
9
engineering projects.
10
For
your information on pump
11
storage, I
think most of
you
are probably
12
familiar,
but
the concept is you
pump water
up the
13
top
of
a
hill
when electricity is cheap, either on
14
a
weekend or
at
night, and then during
the
day
15
when
you
have to meet
peak power,
you
let the
16
water come
down through
a
turbine and generate
17
electricity to
make
up
for when peak power is
18
needed. These have been
particularly
used
in
19
conjunction
with nuclear plants that have
to
have
20
more
steady output
of power. By doing that, the
21
water levels are constantly
fluctuating in there,
22
so one of
the issues was how
do you
-- is there
az
23
way
to
maintain some habitat
so
some fish can
24
spawn or turtles could use
the habitat for
Page
44
1
spawning. So we’ve looked
at some of these pools
2
as a
way
of mitigating drawn down,
weekly drawn
3
down in
these pools.
4
Q.
All
right. Can
you
give
me
5
approximately when
that five-and-a-half
year
6
position with the
engineering firm in Boston
7
occurred?
8
A.
Yes, I think it’s in
my -- I have
to
9
look
at
my
resume. It was in the late
80’s.
10
Q.
Is that
‘79
to
‘85?
11
A.
‘79
to ‘85.
12
Q.
That’s your position
with the
13
Charles -- is it Chaz
or Charles?
14
A.
It was Charles T.
P’1ae, actually
15
bought
out by Parson’s Corporation now.
16
Q.
Now, did
you
get
involved in
17
creating,
actually creating
any of these
pools?
18
A.
I
didn’t myself. We helped
design,
19
because I’m with an
engineering firm. We told
the
20
engineers what
we’d like
to see, and then they
21
worked on the
design and then someone
else did
the
22
actual
construction
of
the
pools.
23
One other
project
out
in the
24
pump storage --
Page 45
1
Q.
Can we
stay
on this project.
I’ll
2
let you get
to any others in the minute, but let’s
3
finish this one up.
4
So you were
involved in
5
designing
them. Did they
get
built?
6
A.
Yes.
7
Q.
All right. Were you still
there
8
after they
were built?
9
A.
No.
10
Q.
All right.
So you do
not know what
11
the effects of those pools were?
12
A.
Right, and that’s why I said I
13
couldn’t answer that part of your
question.
14
Q.
That’s
what
I
was trying
to
15
understand the basis for your answers.
16
All right. Any
other
projects
17
that
you
were
involved
in?
18
A.
The only other one I was going to
19
mention is there was a water storage
project
on
20
the
Delaware River that, I don’t know, some of
you
21
may have remembered, there was going to be a tox
22
island built, dam built on the
Delaware River.
It
23
was
hugely controversial back in the 70’s, I
24
believe. That was defeated,
but
downstream water
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Page 47
1
done in the upper Dresden Island pool
to
improve
2
habitats?
3
A.
I’m
not
sure. Something similar to
4
that
necessarily would
be
helpful.
One
of the
5
things
that I have thought of though on the
6
waterways is that I think, and this is something
7
that Dick Lanyon and I talked about way back in
8
the
early
90’s
when I took
the
trip, I think
the
9
areas where there is
a
lot of riffraff and
at
10
least there
used to be
on the shore
a
lot of
11
cinder block and cement and that, I think
if
some
12
of those
were
put just
off shore
you
could
13
probably protect some of the areas behind those
a
14
little bit
away from barge traffic and potentially
15
create some,
a
little bit more stable habitat for
16
fish breeding or nursery areas for young
fish.
So
17
I think --
18
Q.
How would
you do
that, Dr. Thomas?
19
A.
I
think
you would need to
create
20
sort of
a
long thin dike or small island or
21
whatever. You
get
almost some of that habitat
22
under
the bridges
where
you have pilings
there
and
23
you
have water on the shore with
a
side of those
24
pilings. So
you
have
a
little bit more protected
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Page
51
1
Q.
Well, don’t speculate as to what
EA
2
has.
3
A.
But I don’t have it.
4
Q.
I understand. You
don’t have the
5
data --
6
A.
Right.
7
Q.
-- on which
to
determine
whether
8
there are areas in
the
upper
Dresden Island pool
9
that would
benefit from mitigation projects and
to
10
what extent,
correct?
11
A.
That’s correct.
12
Q.
Okay.
Moving on
to
question 8.
13
Have
you
conducted any field work that
studied
the
14
effects of ambient
water temperatures on aquatic
15
species?
16
A.
I find that sort of
a
strange
17
question.
18
Q.
Oh,
yes.
Why?
19
A.
Well, ambient water
temperatures,
20
the effect
-- I mean, what
you see
in most
aquatic
21
systems is, I
guess,
where
you
have a gradient in
22
the natural ervironment, you may see
fish respond
23
to
that
gradient,
but --
24
Q.
How are
you
using the term
gradient?
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Page
55
1
the
fish avoided a
good
part
of
the thermal plume,
2
and then there were times when they were
attracted
3
to
the thermal plume.
4
THE COURT REPORTER:
I need one
5
second, please.
6
HEARING OFFICER
TIPSORD:
Why don’t
7
we take our first break. Ten minutes,
8
please.
9
(Whereupon
a
break was taken,
10
after which the following
11
proceedings
were
had:)
12
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:
Do we
13
remember where we were or do we need the
14
court reporter
to
refresh
us?
15
MS. FRANZETTI:
I’m there,
as
16
always.
17
BY MS. FRANZETTI:
18
Q.
Dr. Thomas, before we broke part of
19
what
we were
talking about
was
your
work with
the
20
Oyster Creek nuclear station
out
in New Jersey.
21
And again can
you
approximate what year that
2
occurred? For example, was that for the time
you
23
were working for the Charles Main?
24
A.
No, that was before then. It would
Page
56
1
have
been in the 70’s.
2
Q.
And who were
you
doing that study
3
for?
Was it for the utility that owned
the Oyster
Creek
station?
5
A.
Yes, it was for Jersey
Power And
6
Light, I believe.
7
Q.
And
did that
study
make any
findings
8
with respect to
the impact of the
nuclear station
9
on the
aquatic community?
10
A.
Well, there were lots
of reports
11
that were either
submitted
to
the Nuclear
12
Regulatory
Commission or some papers
that came
out
13
of it. So
there’s a lot
of different aspects.
14
I’m not sure
I can summarize in a
few words
what
15
the
impacts were.
16
Q.
Do you
recall whether any of
the
17
studies concluded
that the thermal
discharge from
18
the
Oyster Creek station was
having any
19
significant
adverse effect on the aquatic
20
community?
21
A.
Well, one of
them I remember that
22
was -- let me
backtrack.
23
Probably the most
visible impact
24
was
actually from cold
shock, and
a
few times in
Page
57
1
the
colder
months
of the
year
they
had
to shut
2
down the
power
plant.
Usually
some
unexpected
3
thing
happened
in the
plant,
and
there
were
some
4
pretty
significant
fish
kills.
It seemed
like
two
5
Thanksgivings
in
a row
I
ended
up
having
to
leave
6
dinner
and
drive
up
to
the
Oyster
Creek
plant
and
7
count
the
fish that
had been
killed
when
the
plant
8
shut
down.
And
that’s
a case
where
the
fish
are
9
adapted
to warm
water.
The
plant turns
off.
All
10
of
a
sudden
the
water
is very
cold.
They have
no
11
place
to escape
to in
terms
of finding
other
warm
12
water,
and
you
get
what’s
called
cold
shock
of
the
13
fish.
So
did that
have
an
effect
on
the overall
14
population
of
those
species?
I
don’t
think
15
anybody
was able
to
measure
that.
But
you could
16
measure
the
number
of
fish
that
were
outright
17
killed.
We
also
had
estimates
of
the
number
of
18
fish
killed
on
intake
screens
and going
through
19
the
plant
in
trying
to --
20
Q.
My
question
was
on the
thermal
21
effect
in
the
river
to
the
aquatic
community.
So
22
I
don’t
think
entrainment
is
part
of
my question.
23
A.
Well
part
of
mortality
in
24
entrainment
is
thermal,
part
of
it
is potentially
Page
58
1
chemical
and part of it may be
mechanical going
2
through
the plant for entrained
organisms.
3
Q.
Okay,
Dr. Thomas. That’s fine, if
4
you
think so.
But with respect
to
the cold shock,
5
50
that
happened
a
few times
to
that
plant in
that
6
period?
7
A.
Well, two or
three times over seven
8
years
say.
9
Q.
And
you
were saying that you could
10
quantify the
number of fish that were
killed
by
11
cold
shock,
but
not what
the lasting effect was,
12
if any?
13
A.
That’s correct,
or population. It
14
becomes
a
different
issue
to
then look at, did it
15
have
a
negative
impact on the
population, which
I
16
think may
be
your underlying
question, and we were
17
not able
to
demonstrate
that there was any
18
population
effect. There was an
effect on the
19
fish that were residing
there,
but
on the overall
20
population, most
of these were coastal populations
21
so
we were not able to determine
the negative
22
impact on the population
itself.
23
Q.
When
you say you
were not able to
24
determine, did
you
make some
attempt
to determine
Page
59
1
it?
2
A.
We
looked
at
the population levels
3
of
some of the fish
around the plant, and in
4
Barnegat
Bay versus
other populations
up
and down
5
the coast, because
we
had other studies going.
6
So,
for instance, we had --
7
Q.
Dr.
Thomas, can I
stop you there
8
because
that’s
enough for me?
9
A.
Sure.
10
Q.
So you were trying
to do a
11
comparison after the cold shock occurred
with the
12
fish
populations
of the fish in area of the
13
nuclear station’s discharge
and fish populations
14
outside of the area of that discharge,
correct?
‘5
And from that comparison
did
you
find
a negative
16
effect?
17
A.
Well, none that we could
document
18
statistically. The problem
is in natural
19
environments, the fluctuation of
populations is
20
great enough that
you really need
a
very
large
21
impact
to
actually
be
able
to measure it
22
statistically. I think we found
an entrainment
23
effects, and this
is the only figure I
remember,
24
that
we
need almost an
80 percent change in
Page 60
1
population of
a
plankton organism
for it
to
2
actually
show
up as a
statistically
significant
3
negative
impact. So
this is one of the problems
4
with some of these studies, it’s
difficult to
5
quantify
because
of the large natural
variation
6
that
you
are
dealing with.
7
Q.
So
there was not enough
of an impact
8
from
the cold shock event to
measure any
9
statistically
significant
difference?
10
A.
Population,
right. There was
11
definite
impact on the population -- you
have
to
12
define the population.
If
you
looked
at
the
13
population
within the discharge canal, yes, that
14
was
significant because it was a
large
percentage
15
of any particular
species in the discharge canal
16
at
that time.
If
you
are looking at
the
broader
17
population
like stripped bass
along the Atlantic
18
coast,
no, there was
no detectable impact from
19
that,
no.
20
Q.
Do I understand
correctly then the
21
bulk of the
fish that were killed because the
22
plant shut down causing
a
cold shock
were in
the
23
discharge canal area?
24
A.
That is correct.
Page
61
1
Now,
just to
finish answering
2
your
question
about
thermal, probably the biggest
3
thermal
impact that utility ended
up
having
to
4
readily pay out
was
because a
tropical marine
5
bore, a
wood bore -- there’s some boring. They
6
are called wood bores -- the invertebrate that
7
bore into
wood. It
must
have gotten in with
some
8
ships
coming in from farther south, and it
got
9
established in the heat of
a
discharge canal, and
10
actually some of it started destroying some of the
11
docks and parts of
Barnegat Bay, and that was
an
12
effect,
not the kind of effect that
you
normally
13
think of,
but
that was an effect
of
the heated
14
water and that was something that could
be
15
measured in terms of the amount of destruction of
16
docks,
due
to this more tropical
wood
bore that
17
was able to
survive in the discharge canal.
18
Q.
Dr. Thomas, are
you
aware of any
19
cold shock
events
occurring
with respect
to the
20
Midwest Generation stations either along the
CAWS
21
or the upper Dresden Island pool?
22
A.
No, I
have
not heard or
read
about
23
any.
24
Q.
Given your work for nuclear plants,
Page
62
1
although
I’m not sure how much
you
are aware about
2
coal fire
generating stations,
but
if you
can’t
3
answer
this question
because you
don’t
know,
4
that’s
fine,
just
tell me, isn’t it
true that cold
5
shock
occurs primarily at
nuclear plants
because
6
of their tendency
to
trip?
7
A.
Well, I actually have worked at a
8
number
of coal fire plants, but
I don’t know that
9
that’s
true. I couldn’t say.
10
Q.
Just
a
moment.
Moving on
to
11
question 9.
What
do you
mean
by
the statement in
12
your
testimony, Section 2, second page,
first
13
paragraph, that,
“I also understand the argument
14
that a
QHEI score of 35
to
60 is a
range in
which
15
waterways may
be
able to
meet the Clean Water Act
16
goal, depending
upon particular characteristics of
17
the
area”? Does that statement in
your testimony
18
mean that
you
agree with
that argument?
19
A.
Yes, I agree with their basic
20
argument that it was
a
reasonable
expectation for
21
that system.
22
Q.
And what is the basis for your
23
agreement?
24
A.
Well, Yoder testified that these
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Page
67
1
in the flood plane. My
understanding of it was,
2
you
would
just
include the
habitat within the
3
river, and
yet you
would
be
excluding habitat
4
that’s very important
to
many of those
species
to
5
carry
out their life cycle.
So
all I’m saying
is,
6
if anything, I
think these numbers may
be
low
in
7
the kinds of habitats that
are available in the
8
systems that we’re studying.
9
Q.
I’m not sure I fully understand.
So
10
let me ask
you
a
few questions.
11
Are
you saying that
because
12
large
fish are able
to
move large
distances,
13
that -- are
you referring
to
fish living
outside,
14
for example, the upper Dresden
Island pool and
15
saying that
sometimes they
wiTl
come in for
a
16
visit, and
you
know, then
move on? I am not
17
understanding the significance
of your point
that
18
they --
19
A.
Let me give
you
just
an example.
20
Say
we
have
a
collection -- habitat
evaluations
21
done
a
mile
down the stream of the tail
waters of
22
the Brandon, the
riffle habitat. When we
do the
23
QHEI,
that’s going
to get a zero for riffle. Yet
24
what I’m
saying is, for many of the fish
that need
Page
68
1
a
riffle
habitat for
some part of their life
2
history,
that that
riffle is still available
to
3
them.
Even small fish
like the
Black
Sided
4
Garter, which is one
of
them
I
studied
in
the
5
Kaskaskia --
6
Q.
Where is the riffle available
to
7
them?
8
A.
Below them in the tail water
area.
9
Q.
So
you
are saying they
go up to the
10
tail water area
to
enjoy the riffle?
11
A.
Well, they may breed there.
12
Q.
Fine.
13
A.
And then they move back down
to
the
14
pool afterwards. You
collect them in the
pool,
15
you do
your habitat evaluation in that pool,
which
16
doesn’t include any
-- you
have zero for riffle
17
habitat, and yet
what
I’m saying
from
the fish’s
18
point of view, that riffle habitat is still
19
available, even though it’s still a mile away.
20
Q.
But if
you
are doing, not
just QHEI,
21
but you
are also doing fish surveys in the
pool --
22
A.
Right.
23
Q.
-- then don’t
you
have
the
two
24
pieces that
you
are talking about?
Page
69
1
A.
You
do.
But that’s why I’m saying
2
if you just
-- and that’s why they
say,
the QHEI
3
is
often
used
in lieu of the monitoring. If you
4
have all the monitoring data,
you
are documenting
5
what the habitat is.
You
really don’t
need
a
6
QHEI.
But
it becomes
important in this
case. All
7
I’m
saying is,
yes,
we are talking
about
45
to
8
60
-- I’m
just
testifying that this is
a
range
9
from what I know of the system in which you have
10
good
potential of meeting the goals of
the Clean
11
Water Act.
I mean, in terms of habitat.
12
Q.
Did
you study
here the fish survey
13
data
that’s available
on the upper Dresden
Island
14
pool in connection with the QHEI scores
to
draw
‘5
any opinion
as to
potential
to attain
the Clean
16
Water Act goals?
17
A.
I think I have gone through all of
18
the fish
data
reports that have been made
19
available as
part of this record. I’ve also
20
relied somewhat on some other
data
that the
21
Natural History Survey has_collected regarding
22
fish and
the upper
Illinois
River basin. In terms
23
of looking
at
the QHEI for
a
station versus the
24
fish collected there, and do I think
-- I did
not
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Page 72
1
testified in
a
big river system the area
2
might
be
bigger. The relevant area in terms
3
of their life cycle might
be
different. So
4
I think there’s
a
little ambiguity in your
5
question and that may be confusing.
6
BY MS.
FRANZETTI:
7
Q.
Maybe I should ask this --
8
A.
I did not rely totally on the QHEI
9
scores. I relied on the fisheries
data as
they
10
reflect their ability
to
live and grow in that
11
section
of the river.
12
Q.
Okay.
Maybe I should have asked
13
you,
what do you
mean
by
“depending on the
14
particular characteristics of the area,” what
do
15
you
mean that’s an argument that
you
agree with?
16
A.
All the areas, all the habitats
that
17
might
be
available, logs in the water, sand,
18
gravel, shore line, some current, aquatic
19
vegetation.
20
Q.
So
did
you go
back
to
the QHEI
21
reports here and look at the locations
that
scored
22
in 45 to 60 t
try and evaluate those particular
23
circumstances?
24
A.
Well, I didn’t look at all
of them,
Page 73
1
I can tell
you
that. I looked
at
the
sheets
that
2
gave all the scores,
but
I did look
at
some of
3
them, and that’s why I gave the example, there’s
4
one station downstream from the tail water area,
5
and that has zero for riffle, riffle habitat, and
6
yet
my
argument
is
those
fish had that riffle
7
available
to
them and would have
used
it and
8
probably
do use
it if that’s needed for carrying
9
out a
portion of their life cycle. So that’s what
10
I meant by some of these scores I think
11
underestimate
the total habitat that’s
available
12
to
some of these fish.
13
Q.
And the scores
you were
referring
to
14
those, those included the QHEI scores that were
15
produced by
Mr.
Yoder’s company?
16
A.
Well, I looked
at
all
the
ones
that
17
were available I think.
18
Q.
Do you know whether or not that work
19
was included in what
you
reviewed? You
mentioned
20
Rankin?
21
A._
Right.
22
Q.
-
That’s different from --
23
A.
And I saw the Yoder ones.
24
Q.
Okay, you did. That’s what I’m
Page 74
1
talking about.
2
A.
Okay. But
I saw also -- didn’t EA
3
do a
separate analysis
themselves? And I looked
4
at
those also.
5
Q.
With respect
to
Mr. Yoder’s
firm’s
6
QHEI
work, did
you
look at the corrected
QHEI
scores?
8
A.
I
saw that there were corrections
9
made, but I
wasn’t trying
to
analyze -- I
mean,
10
when you
have all this detailed
information --
11
Q.
Dr. Thomas,
did
you
look
at
the
12
corrected
QHEI scores?
13
A.
I saw the corrected
-- did it mean
14
anything
to
me,
no. But I saw the corrected
15
scores.
I think is
does
make
a
difference though
16
that
I wasn’t relying on
those
to
tell me what’s
17
happening to the
fish populations.
18
HEARING OFFICER
TIPSORD:
Excuse me,
19
Ms. Franzetti. Just
for clarification of
20
the
record, we keep talking about
the EA
21
report, and I have
assumed and we should
22
probably put
it on the record,
when
you talk
23
about
the EA report that are a
part of
this
24
record,
you
are
talking
about
materials that
Page 75
1
are already in the record or were
a part
of
2
the pre-filed testimony for Midwest
3
Generation; is that correct?
4
THE WITNESS: I believe
so.
I’ll
5
tell
you,
I’ve reviewed
so
many things.
6
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:
But they
7
are
items that
are already
in the record or
8
will be?
9
THE WITNESS:
I hope
so.
10
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:
That was
11
your understanding?
12
THE WITNESS:
That’s my
13
understanding. I think everything you sent
14
me,
the Plankton reports, the various
15
Fisheries reports.
16
MS. DEXTER:
In
terms
of
QHEI
is
17
everything
that he’s reviewed.
18
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:
I was
19
asking about the EA
reports. We keep
20
talking
about
the EA reports. I
just
21
assumed when he reviewed the record, that he
22
was talking about the
reports
that
are
part
23
of the pre-filed testimony or maybe placed
24
in. If that’s not the case, then we need
Page 76
1
him
to
provide
us
those that are not
or
2
won’t
be
introduced.
3
MR.
ETTINGER:
May
I
suggest
that
4
the three of
us
should
talk. EA has
5
actually been
doing studies of these systems
6
since the ‘80s
and I want
to
make
sure we
7
didn’t send him one of those
earlier
8
studies. I don’t
think we did,
but
I’d like
9
to
talk to
Ms. Dexter and Dr. Thomas
and
10
make sure that
we didn’t give him an
earlier
11
BA report that wasn’t in
the record, and we
12
will
get
back to you
on that.
13
HEARING OFFICER
TIPSORD:
And that’s
14
fine. My only request
is, if he did look
at
15
something
that is not part of
the record,
16
that we make it part
of the record.
17
MR.
ETTINGER:
We’ll
get
back to
you
18
with
an answer on that.
19
HEARING
OFFICER TIPSORD:
Okay,
20
thank you.
Sorry, Ms. Franzetti.
21
BY MS.
FRANZETTI:
22
Q.
Dr. Thomas,
you’ve mentioned
the
23
Brandon tail
water area and -- are you
aware
that
24
the
median QHEI score in the
Brandon tail water
Page 77
1
area is
about
46?
2
A.
I thought
that was somewhat below
3
the actual
-- does
that
include the whole tail
4
water?
5
Q.
Yes.
6
A.
That seems awfully low
to
me.
7
Q.
I’m sorry,
I think I
just
misstated
8
that. Except for the
Brandon tail water area,
except for the Brandon tail water. I
left out
a
10
key word in formulating that question. Do
you
11
agree from what
the QHEI scores
you
reviewed
that
12
the median is
about
46?
13
MR. ETTINGER: I’m sorry, I’m
still
14
unclear what we
are talking about. The
15
upper Dresden Pool, the median score is
46,
16
outside of
the Brandon tail water?
17
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Correct.
18
BY THE WITNESS:
19
A.
I’m not
positive. If I remember,
20
that sounds like it may
be
in
the
ballpark
of what
21
someone has reported.
22
BY MS. FRANZETTI:
23
Q.
That’s fine. I’ll ask
you to assume
24
it. The
record
will
bear
out
whether or not
Page 78
1
that’s
an accurate median value. And do I
2
understand
your testimony correctly
that even
3
though
that median value is at
that very low end
4
of
the 45
to
60 range, that you
still believe it’s
5
reasonable
to
conclude that
the upper Dresden
6
Island pool can
attain the Clean Water Act aquatic
7
life goals?
8
A.
I wasn’t sure when
I was going
to
9
get
into this,
but
I
guess
I
might
as
well jump in
10
now.
11
It’s interesting when you
12
look
-- and this is -- if you’ll
excuse me
a
13
minute. I’m going to
jump off
to
something else.
14
But I’m
going
to get
back
to
your
question -- if
15
you
look
at
IBI scores
and
you
look
at
the Fox
16
River, and that’s
been in the record. The
IBI
17
scores for the
flowing part of the
Fox River,
and
18
the
IBI scores for the
impounded parts, you
see
19
that the IBI
score for the impounded
parts on
the
20
Fox
River is
about
the same as
the Dresden Pool.
21
Maybe
even
a
little
bit lower. I think the values
22
have been
reported. The problem here
is -- and
23
there’s
no
doubt,
and there’s
been testimony, the
24
effects of impoundment
of the effects of diversity
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Page
81
1
MR. ETTINGER:
Are
you including
2
treatment areas?
3
MS. FR.ANZETTI:
To the extent they
4
are a part
of
what this proceeding has
5
defined
as
the
upper Dresden Island pool,
6
yes.
7
BY THE WITNESS:
8
A.
I would
say
that it would
be
9
characterized as slower moving water for most of
10
the
rest of
the pool. I think there’s somewhere
11
in the record what sort of an average velocity
is
12
through the pool,
but
I’m not positive I
remember
13
that.
14
BY MS. FRANZETTI:
15
Q.
You do agree that, except for the
16
tail waters, riffles are absent from the
upper
17
Dresden Island pool?
18
A.
I’m not
positive that other riffles
19
aren’t available in some of the tributaries,
but
20
yes,
for the
pool itself, I would agree.
21
Q.
What
tributaries
to
the upper
22
Dresden Pool are
you
talking
about?
23
A.
Let me
see.
Jackson Creek
actually
24
comes in the downstream of
1-55, correct?
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Page
87
1
capable of maintaining
something close
to
the
2
Clean Water Act goal of
a balanced indigenous
3
population.
4
Q.
I haven’t asked
you,
have
you made
5
these determinations before
as to
whether or
not
a
6
particular
body of water can attain the Clean
7
Water Act aquatic life
use goals or is this the
S
first time
you
are opining on that
topic?
9
A.
Well, I find the whole concept
of --
10
I tend to approach it from
a
species point of
11
view.
12
Q.
Dr. Thomas, the question
is whether
13
or not --
14
A.
I’m getting there.
I tend
to
15
approach it from the species point of view.
So
a
16
broad, general
term like that
used
in our legal
17
system doesn’t have huge overriding
meaning
to me.
18
I
mean,
I’m not sure anybody could totally
tell
me
19
in any of these water
bodies what the balanced
20
indigenous population should look
like, for one
21
thing. And
I have seen the historical
data
so
I
22
could probably tell
you better than most what
it
23
was, but it’s never going
to be what it is now
and
24
what it’s
going
to be.
What’s the
imbalance
Page 88
1
indigenous population
for
Lake
Michigan?
We
get a
2
new
invasive
species that
takes off
every year.
3
So populations
are changing
there every
year,
the
4
mix,
the balance of
them. So
I’m not
sure
anybody
5
really
could
tell
you very
actively
what
a
6
balanced
indigenous
population should
look like
7
there.
What I’m saying
is, for
this system
I
8
think
we
have
a
basic assemblage
of
species
that
9
in my
view
would
be
close
to
probably
what we
10
could
expect
in that system.
11
Q.
Moving
on
to
the
Chicago Sanitary
&
12
Ship
Canal.
Can
you
describe
for
me the
location
13
and extent
of the
micro habitats
that exist
in
14
this
Sanitary
and
Ship canal?
15
A.
Well, of
course, it’s
a
very
diverse
16
system
with,
you
know,
lots of
difference between
17
the
north channel
--
18
Q.
No, no,
no, the Chicago
Sanitary
&
19
Ship
Canal only.
20
A.
Sorry,
okay.
Habitats
in
general
21
are more
limited
there,
but
on the
other hand
22
there
is --
23
Q.
No,
Dr. Thomas,
where
are the
micro
24
habitats
in
the
Chicago
Sanitary
& Ship Canal?
Page
89
1
A.
The broken riffraff.
2
Q.
And where is it?
3
A.
Along the shore.
4
Q.
Of the --
5
MR.
ETTINGER:
Do
you
want
a
meets
6
and
bounds description? Should we get
a
map
7
out?
I’m not sure what your question
is.
8
MS. FRANZETTI:
Well,
Albert, I’m
9
asking what is the
basis for his statement
10
that there are micro
habitats in the Chicago
11
Sanitary
&
Ship Canal?
12
MR. ETTINGER:
Why
don’t
you
ask
13
that
question, and he can answer that.
14
BY MS.
FRANZETTI:
15
Q.
I would like to
know the extent of
16
them and their
location in the ship canal,
17
otherwise
these are
just
generalized statements
18
that really can’t
be
evaluated.
Number one, we
19
are using a
term that he’s admitted isn’t
even
20
used
in the literature. It’s his own
term.
So I
21
think I’m entitled
to
know
what
you
are saying is
22
the extent
of
their
location in the Chicago
23
Sanitary & Ship Canal and where are they
located.
24
So I don’t need meets and bounds, but
I need
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Page
92
1
referring
to
in this testimony.”
And
I
will
just
2
add,
I know
you
talked about the
potential
3
construction of
a
dike.
We already have that.
4
But I don’t
know that
you
have identified any
5
other
improvements
you
think, habitat
6
improvements, that could
be
made in the
upper
7
Dresden pool that we haven’t
already discussed.
8
So
I’m not asking you to
repeat your testimony,
9
but to
make sure I know all of what
you
are
10
referring to.
11
MR. ETTINGER:
I’m
sorry,
you just
12
shifted
back
to
the upper Dresden Pool. You
13
want
to
answer this for the
upper Dresden
14
Pool or are
we
at
the Sanitary Ship Canal?
15
MS. FRANZETTI:
The question is the
16
Dresden Pool, and I believe
his prior
17
testimony
regarding construction of the dike
18
was also the Dresden Pool.
19
MR. ETTINGER:
I was confused.
20
MS. FRANZETTI:
So, yes,
we are
21
staying in the Dresden Pool.
22
MR. ETTINGER:
I was-confused
23
because
your last
set
of questions was
about
24
the Chicago Sanitary & Ship Canal.
to
to
to
to
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Page 94
1
haven’t
done that
type of analysis?
2
A.
That’s
correct.
3
Q.
Moving on
to Question 13,
do you
4
believe the absence of
sufficient food for fish
is
5
currently
a
limiting factor
to species abundance
6
and diversity in the upper Dresden
Pool?
7
A.
Well,
I have not seen any
data that
8
would indicate that food
is a limiting factor,
9
with
a
possible exception of
small mouth
bass.
10
The EA
study
showed plankton in
the upper
Dresden
11
Pool to be similar
to
other large water
bodies.
12
think Burton and Siegert
testified the
condition
13
of fish in the upper Dresden Pool is similar
to
14
other water bodies. But
their reports did
say
15
that small mouth
bass
had lower
condition.
16
Whether that’s temperature effect or
a
food
effect
17
or some other thing,
I don’t really know. But
the
18
data
I’ve seen
does
not seem
to indicate that
food
19
is
limiting
for most of the fish in the
system.
20
MS. FRANZETTI: And,
again, the
data
21
that
you
are referring
to,
is that
22
something, Counsel-i that maybe we can
get
23
some clarification
on after you’ve had
a
24
chance
to
talk
to
him?
Page 95
1
MS.
DEXTER:
I think
we need
to go
2
back
and look
through
the
reports
and
3
identify
which
ones
he’s
talking
about.
4
BY
THE WITNESS:
5
A.
I apologize
if some
of them
weren’t
6
in
the
records.
My
understanding
was
it was
part
7
of the
record.
8
BY
MS.
FRANZETTI:
9
Q.
It may
well be,
Dr.
Thomas.
You
10
don’t have
to
apologize
for anything
at
this
11
point.
We
just
need
to
get
a little
clarity
when
12
you
say
the data
you’ve
seen.
You
can
appreciate
13
that.
14
A.
I’m
sorry
that
I
didn’t
get
more
15
specific.
16
Q.
Right,
and
it makes
it
difficult,
if
17
not
impossible,
for
me
to
ask
follow-up
questions
18
about
that
data.
19
MS.
FRANZETTI:
And
on
that note,
20
Madam
Hearing
Officer,
I’m
just
going
to
21
reserve
the
right
to
ask
further
questions
22
of Dr.
Thomas-when
we do
have
a
little
more
23
clarity
and
certainty
to
the
data
that
he’s
24
referring
to
for some
of
these
statements.
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Page 103
1
A.
Well, I -- for the white sucker,
I
2
relied on -- Yoder had an upper avoidance
3
temperature of about 84 degrees
Farenheit and an
4
upper incipient lethal
temperature of
about --
5
rounding it off to about 89
degrees Farenheit.
6
There
was -- I had some
data
from Fish and
Wild
7
Life Service that had a little bit
higher upper
8
incipient lethal temperature
for white sucker
up
9
at
91.4 degrees
Farenheit.
So
those are two
10
sources. They
are off
by a
few degrees, but
you
11
get
that kind of variation in the
literature.
12
The
logperch, I had an upper
13
incipient temperature of 26 degrees
centigrade.
14
I’m not sure the table I got
is in the record or
15
not.
16
Q.
Do
you
remember what
table
you got
17
it from?
18
A.
Well, I have the table.
19
Q.
That’s
a
good start.
Pull that
baby
20
out.
21
A.
You’ll have
to
give me
a
minute
22
here. I am not sure if it’s
in the folder or not.
23
Q.
You
know what, what we can
do
is, I
24
think
at a
certain
point
here that I won’t be done
to
to
to
to
to
H
H
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to
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Page 105
1
to
look through there
to see if -- because
they
2
have a
number of species listed.
3
Q.
Dr. Thomas,
you
want
to just
maybe
4
include that in the homework I’m giving you for
5
the lunch hour?
6
MR. ETTINGER:
Is
Brungs and Jones
7
in the record?
8
MS. FRANZETTI:
It’s been mentioned.
9
I’m
not
positive if it is or not.
It’s
10
definitely
been
mentioned. I’m not sure --
11
BY THE WITNESS:
12
A.
I don’t think that’s where
I
-- I
13
don’t
think that’s where I
got
it. I think it
was
14
more recent
data.
I was just looking quickly. I
15
know there’s
a
table.
16
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:
Jess
17
indicates that’s she’s checked and it’s not
18
in the record.
19
MS. DEXTER:
If it becomes time, we
20
can
put
it in the record.
21
MS. FRANZETTI: Well, he
just
said,
22
at least on this one -- it may change on
23
logperch -- he didn’t rely
on
that.
24
A.
Yes, I was
supposed to
look
at
white
Page
106
1
perch. I was looking
at
logperch. Yes, white
2
sucker
is in there
-- no, well --
3
Q.
What’s
the temperature in there?
4
A.
Well,
they just list here the
5
maximum weekly average temperature
for growth, and
6
they listed that
at
82 degrees in Farenheit.
7
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:
At this
8
point we need
to
put that in the record.
9
We’re reading from it, we
need
to put
it in
10
the record.
11
MR. ETTINGER:
You can
put
it in
the
12
record,
but
I need it
back.
13
MS. FRANZETTI: At least Jessica
14
comes prepared unlike
some other people we
15
won’t name.
16
MR. ETTINGER:
She’s eager
to get
17
rid of these.
18
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:
I’ve
been
19
handed Temperature
Criteria for Fresh
Water
20
Fish Protocol &
Procedures, U.S. EPA,
21
Environmental Research Laboratory
Office of
22
Research
& Development. And it’s
got a May
23
1977
date
on it. If
there’s no objection,
24
we will
enter that
as
Exhibit 328.
Seeing
Page 107
1
none, it’s Exhibit 328.
2
(Whereupon Exhibit No. 328 was
3
entered into the
record.)
4
MS. WILLIAMS: I’d
like
to clarify
5
for the record. I don’t
want
to object.
6
believe Jessica
is correct, that this is not
7
an exhibit,
but
I believe the Agency
8
submitted it.
9
MS. DEXTER:
I
believe I checked
10
through.
11
MS. DIERS:
Mr. Yoder did follow
12
up,
and it was attached.
13
MS. DEXTER:
In the big one,
yes.
14
MS. WILLIAMS:
Well,
when
we had
to
15
do
supplemental
to
what people requested,
16
I’m pretty sure it was in there.
17
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:
That’s
18
fine,
but
since we are dealing with it
at
19
the hearing, we’ll
go
ahead and mark it
20
again.
21
THE WITNESS:
I should
just add
on
22
to
that, on page 51, Appendix B, they
23
actually have it listed
by
its
scientific
24
name, which is Catostomidae, and they
do
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Page 113
1
probably occurred somewhere
between two and
2
four miles downstream. But I
don’t know -- I
3
mean, if
I was one that was going
to do a
real
4
evaluation
of that, I would -- and I think that
5
thermal plumb
data
was referenced somewhere
in
6
someone’s testimony that the plumb study
was
7
done -- I
just
had not
seen the results of that
8
plumb data.
That would sort of
be
helpful, I
9
think.
10
Q.
How would
you use
that data?
Why
11
would it
be
helpful?
12
A.
I mean, there’s statements in here,
13
like there’s room for fish to
move under the
plumb
14
or away from it, which I assume is correct,
but
I
15
haven’t seen the
data
that really
shows me. For
16
instance, suckers are
going
to be
near the
bottom
17
and the
red
horses.
So
what is the temperature
18
along the bottom, and when it fully mixes
what
are
19
the temperatures really there. I don’t really
20
know. And without seeing that -- I mean, I think
21
I have seen some
things
from the 1-55
bridge
that
22
seems like it can
be
like
up to
70 degrees
23
Farenheit, above ambient temperature,
but,
again,
24
without seeing good
plumb
data and
how that
plumb
Page 114
1
operates
and
what
the
top to
bottom
and what the
2
one
side
to
the
other are,
it’s a little
hard
to
3
evaluate,
what’s
available
for
fish for
avoidance
4
or attraction
or
whatever
so.
5
Q.
What
do you mean
by
the
carrying
capacity of
the system?
I’m still
on
question
19.
7
A.
Carrying
capacity
is just
a
term,
8
fisheries’
term
used
to
indicate,
if
you
will,
the
9
poundage of
different
fish that a
system might
10
support.
It’s
based on
habitat
and
competition
11
and food
availability
and
a
variety
of other
12
things. You
might hear
the term,
you know,
this
13
area
will support,
I
don’t
know,
X-number
of
large
14
mouth
bass or
so
many
pounds of
fish or whatever,
15
so --
16
Q.
So
in that
part of
your statement,
17
are
you
basically
saying that
it’s your opinion
18
that there would
be
more fish there?
19
A.
I
think certain
species, we
might
20
expect an
increase
of if temperatures
were
lower.
21
Q.
Which
ones?
-
22
A.
The
red
horses,
the
white sucker
23
might
be
one.
Walleye
could
be
one. Small
mouth
24
bass could
be included
in that.
Those would
be a
Page 115
1
few of the species right offhand that
I can
think
2
of.
3
Q.
Moving on
to
question 20.
In your
4
testimony
you
note that
you,
“Have not seen
data
that demonstrates that sediment toxicity is
a
6
major factor limiting the
aquatic life potential
7
of this system.” Did
you
consider in your
review
8
of QHEI scores
to
what extent sediments were
9
present in those areas that scored greater than
45
10
and to what extent the presence of those
11
sediments, separate and apart from the
issue of
12
their toxicity, would impair the quality of that
13
location for aquatic habitat?
14
A.
Well, sedimentation is
a
problem
15
throughout our state, actually throughout the
16
Midwest, and there’s no
doubt that just heavy
17
sedimentation in and of itself has been for
a long
18
time and continues to
be
a problem. I think
19
actually from my view of, like
the pool and the
20
data
I’ve seen, probably the turbidity, the
amount
21
of sediment in the water is probably
a
little
bit
22
lower in the upper Des Plaines
pool and probably
23
lower than it is lower down in the river
or
in
24
some other
rivers like the Kaskaskia or some of
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Page 119
1
Q.
It’s not significant?
2
A.
It’s
not of
a magnitude that’s
3
greater than,
say,
most other impounded large
4
rivers in Illinois or the Midwest.
5
MR. ETTINGER:
Are we ready for
a
6
lunch break yet?
7
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:
We need
to
8
try
to get
done with Ms. Franzetti.
9
BY MS. FRANZETTI:
10
Q.
Dr. Thomas, the turbidity levels
11
that you are
referring
to, again,
what is the
12
extent of your observations regarding turbidity
13
levels in the upper Dresden Island Pool?
14
A.
My own personal observation would
be
15
very limited.
16
Q.
Let’s
move
to
question 21. Do
you
17
have an opinion
as to
whether sediment toxicity
is
18
a
factor limiting the aquatic life potential of
19
this
system? And I’m going
to
amend that
question
20
to
first
just
refer
to
the upper Dresden Island
21
pool.
22
A.
There’s no
doubt that
in laboratory
23
studies of some organisms, some of those sediments
24
are toxic. Having said that, it’s sort of like
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Page 122
1
Q.
And
you do not
believe
that he took
2
the position that sediment toxicity is
a
factor
3
limiting the
aquatic
life potential of this
system?
A.
Well, I can’t speak for him. He may
6
well
have taken
that opinion
but --
7
Q.
I’m not asking
you to
speak for
him.
8
I’m asking
you
when
you
read his report, his
9
testimony with the attached report, with regard
to
10
the sediment sampling and his findings, am I
11
correct that
you
did not believe
he was
saying
12
that sediment toxicity is
a
limiting constraint
on
13
the system?
14
A.
He may have said that,
but
he
also
15
said there’s a thriving fish population. He also
16
said that
the population of plankton
is similar
17
there
to
other large reservoirs.
So
I mean, I
18
don’t know. There’s two things. What he said and
19
my
interpretation of what he said
a
couple
20
different places was what is in the record in
21
terms of_the populations that are there.
22
Q.
So you
disagree with his
23
interpretation of the sediment
data
that was
24
presented in his report?
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Page 124
1
that more
fully for
me, please, what
you
are
2
referring
to.
3
A.
Yes,
I could --
this is
a
paper
4
that’s
going
to be
published.
It’s
not
published
5
yet. So what
I heard was
a
progress
report.
6
Actually,
it’s
a
manuscript
in preparation
for
7
publication,
but
it hasn’t
been
accepted yet
or
8
published
in
the peer reviewed
literature.
9
Q.
Who did
the study
that they
are
10
preparing
to publish?
11
A.
Michael Litti
was the
primary
-- oh,
12
wait.
There
is
a
group
of authors,
and
it’s
a
13
2009
study. The name
of
it was “Identifying
The
14
Causes of
Sediment Associated
Contamination
in
the
15
Illinois
River Using
A
Whole
Sediment
Toxicity
16
Evaluation,
TIA.
17
Q.
Why is that
relevant
here?
18
A.
It’s
relevant
because
some of
their
19
stations were
in the Dresden
Pool.
20
Q.
Oh, okay.
21
A.
Or in
the Chicago
waterways
under
22
consideration.
They did
other parts
of
the
23
Illinois
River,
but
really
they
found the
toxic
24
effect
only in
the
waterways
we are talking
about.
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Page 126
1
population effect or an effect on any particular
2
population
due
to contamination of the sediment.
3
Q.
Now, can you tell
us
who these
4
researchers are associated with?
5
A.
Southern Illinois University.
6
Q.
I think all we had was Southern
7
Illinois, which could
be a
geographic location and
8
not the university.
9
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
And, again, their findings for
11
stations that were within the -- is it --
12
A.
I think their upper station might
13
have been the Stickney plant or somewhere near
14
there, and then they had
a
few stations --
15
Q.
Down stream?
16
A.
-- including, I think, some in
the
17
Dresden Island Pool.
18
Q.
And with respect
to
their findings,
19
they found the sediments were toxic?
20
A.
Some of them.
21
Q.
Okay.
22
A.
Like all studies, there’s
a
lot
of
23
variations between
stations. So you may have
a
24
toxic area in one area and the next area may
not
Page 127
1
be
or may be much lower.
2
Q.
So some of the stations within the
3
waterway system we’re looking
at
in this
4
proceeding did show that the sediments would
be
5
toxic to
aquatic
life, correct?
6
A.
No,
were toxic to
the two
test
7
organisms that they utilized.
8
Q.
And those
test
organisms were not
9
aquatic life?
10
A.
No, they are aquatic lives, but
you
11
can’t
make the generalization
to
all aquatic
life.
12
Fish might not have -- if
you
put fish in there,
13
these
are planktonic organisms basically.
So if
14
you put
fish in there, they may have had very
15
different results or quite
different
results.
16
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:
Dr.
17
Thomas, did I understand
you
that this is
18
not yet published?
There’s
no written
19
material on this? This is
based
on
you
20
seeing
a
presentation at a conference?
21
THE WITNESS:
Well, and
I also
got a
22
draft of their paper that is going for
23
publication.
24
MS. FRANZETTI:
Can
you supply us
Page 128
1
with
a copy
of the draft?
2
THE WITNESS:
I would have
to get
3
the author’s permission I think.
I’m
sorry
4
for that.
5
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:
That’s
6
quite all
right.
I thought I might
be
able
7
to
short circuit some questions if
we
could
8
have
a copy
of it.
9
THE WITNESS:
I
would
be
glad
to
10
check to see
when it would
be
able. I’m
11
sure it’s going
to be out
and published and
12
read
by a
wide audience before
this hearing
13
is over.
14
HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:
After.
15
But you
under estimate me.
16
MS. DEXTER:
Can I ask one follow-up
17
before
you
move on
to
the next
topic.
Have
18
you
studied other rivers for toxic
sediments
19
in them and observed what the fish
20
populations are like in those rivers? Do
21
you
have any examples of that?
22
THE WITNESS:
Yes, I’d
say
Raritan
23
Bay, there were highly
toxic
sediments
24
there. I’m trying
to
think of some other
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Page 130
1
Q.
Moving on
to
22.
What
type
of
2
habitat does
the white sucker need in order
to
3
spawn successfully
in the waterway?
4
A.
Usually gravely areas
at
the lower
end
of pools are sort of a traditional
place
that
6
they
spawn.
7
Q.
To what extent is that habitat
8
present
in the upper Dresden Island pool as
9
defined
in this proceeding obviously from
the
1-55
10
bridge up to
the northern boundary of
the
pool?
11
A.
Again, I
would assume there’s
12
habitat on
the --
13
Q.
No, Dr.
Thomas, I don’t want
you to
14
assume.
I’m
asking
you, do you
know what
type
of
15
habitat, whether and
to
what extent
there is
that
16
type
of habitat in
the upper Dresden Island
pool?
17
If you don’t
know, that’s fine.
18
A.
Yes, it is there, that
kind of
19
habitat.
20
Q.
Where in the upper Dresden?
21
A.
In the tail water
area.
22
Q.
ny
other place other than the tail
23
water?
24
A.
I wouldn’t
know for sure.
Page 131
1
Q.
What type
of habitat
does
the
2
logperch
need in
order to
spawn successfully in
the
waterway?
4
A.
Let
me go
back
to
one other point in
5
the white sucker, if I may. I believe in some of
6
the EA collections that was in the
top
-- young of
7
the year were in the top ten species
that they
8
collected
in the pool,
at
least in one year of
9
data. So
that would sort of indicate that there’s
10
probably spawning other places in the pool besides
11
just
the tail water area.
12
Q.
That’s sufficient
data
for
you
on
13
which
to
make that conclusion?
14
A.
Well, my conclusion was that
-- my
15
judgment was that if it’s that common in their
16
collection, that there were probably other areas,
17
but
it could have been all the spawning coming
18
from the tail water area. I don’t know for sure.
19
Q.
I’m just
trying
to -- with
all
due
20
respect, Dr. Thomas, I’m trying
to
understand
when
21
it is
you
need
data
in order
to
draw
a
conclusion
22
and when
it is you don’t?
23
A.
You always could
use
some kind of
24
data.
Page
132
1
Q.
What
type
of habitat does the
2
logperch need in order
to
spawn successfully
in
a
3
waterway?
4
A.
Usually clear, weedy,
sandy areas.
5
It will spawn in
riffles,
but
it will also spawn
6
along shore
lines and lakes. Could
be
actually
7
more
habitat for them
to
spawn in, in
the
Dresden
8
Island pooi, than possibly even the
white
sucker.
9
Q.
And, again, do you
know
to
what
10
extent that
type
of habitat is
present in the
11
upper
Dresden Island pool?
12
A.
I
just
know from some
of the things
13
I’ve read that
there are sandy bottom areas in
14
places. I don’t know -- I couldn’t
tell
you how
15
many acres or foot of shore
line or whatever.
16
Q.
Do
you
know whether there’s
a
17
sufficient amount
to
support
a
logperch population
18
in the upper Dresden Island pool?
19
A.
The
data
seemed
to
indicate that
20
there’s not much of
a
logperch population
in
the
21
pool right
now.
In other
words, there’s not --
22
whereas I mentioned white sucker being in the
top
23
ten list, I actually have the data to go
back
to
24
and
look.
But just of f the top
of my head, I
Page 133
1
don’t think there were that many logperch
2
captured.
3
MR.
ETTINGER:
Her
question was
not
4
what’s there now
but
what would their
5
habitat support.
6
BY MS. FRANZETTI:
7
Q.
Do
you
think -- in other words,
8
looking at
the logperch
numbers
you’ve looked
at,
9
do you
think
based
on your knowledge of this
type
10
of habitat being present, there should
be
more
of
11
them? And, again, if
you
haven’t made that
12
analysis,
it’s fine,
tell
me
you don’t
know.
But
13
if
you do,
I would like
to
know.
14
A.
Well, there’s a number of factors
15
that
go
into that. I’m trying
to
think of the
16
best
way
to
answer that. I would think there
17
should be -- they should be able to
do
reasonably
18
well in that pool.
19
Q.
Why is that?
20
A.
Because
I
think
there is,
from
what
21
I’ve read, it
does
seem
to be
the habitats
22
available that they could spawn in and carry
out
23
their life history.
24
Q.
And when
you say
they should
be able
to
to
to
to
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Page
135
1
Q.
Okay, so I understand
you
correctly.
2
So
if
that’s the case, you are not sure how many
3
more could really
be
there?
4
A.
That’s correct.
5
Q.
Moving on
to
question 24,
do you
6
agree with the EA fish studies’ conclusions
that
7
the
fish
community in the upper Illinois waterway
8
is highly stressed and
habitat limiting?
9
A.
I actually could
not
find
in their
10
report the
use
of the term highly
stressed system.
11
I
did
see
in Mr. Siegert’s testimony
a discussion
12
of habitat, what he
considered habitat
13
limitations,
but
maybe somebody could point
that
14
out to
me. I
just didn’t
see.
I looked through
15
the report actually looking for that term “highly
16
stressed” and I did not
see
that.
17
Q.
Okay, let’s take it apart and then
18
state
it. Why don’t we
just
narrow
it to, do
you
19
agree
with the EA fish studies conclusions
that
20
the fish community in
the upper Illinois waterway
21
is habitat limited?
22
A.
Well, I mean, there are
a
lot-of
23
other stresses
that were talked
about
in addition
24
to habitat.
Page 136
1
Q.
Just
asking if
you
agree with their
2
conclusion
that the UIW is habitat limited?
3
A.
To the degree that the most
4
impounded bodies of water are habitat limited, I
5
would agree with it.
6
Q.
Moving on to
25,
do you
agree with
7
EA
fish studies’ conclusion, that diversity in
8
this
system was dependent on species adapted
to
9
contaminated conditions and that because
of
these
10
inherent limitations in the
ichthyoplankton
11
community
was not likely
to
change in the UIW for
12
the
foreseeable future?
13
A.
One, I
did not find that conclusion
14
in
the EA ichthyoplankton report.
15
Q.
Okay.
16
A.
And I don’t think species can
adapt
17
to
contaminated conditions. So I don’t agree with
18
that phrase.
19
Q.
You don’t agree that species can
20
adapt to
contaminated conditions?
21
A.
That’s correct.
22
Q.
What’s that
based
on?
23
A.
Based on
a
lot of years of studying
24
contaminant effects,
on
the
literature, on
Page
137
1
contamination. You can measure the
mortality of
2
species
to
levels of contaminants,
but
I
donTt
3
think it’s
a
matter of species adapting
to
4
contaminants. Even when we did, years
ago
when
we
5
did avoidance studies,
you
could
get
fish
to be
6
attracted to or
avoid
high temperatures and they
7
may or may not move in and
out
of low DO or low
8
dissolved oxygen values,
but
if
you put
copper
in
9
the water or some other contaminant, they
do
not
10
seem
to
respond. They either
get
killed,
but
they
11
are not adapting
to
it. They are
not
responding
12
to
it. If
you
have
a
gradient of chemicals, for
13
instance. So maybe with further thought I would
‘4
think of something that’s been an adaptation
to
a
15
contaminant,
but
generally I would
say
organisms
16
are not
adapting to a chemical contaminant
in
the
17
water.
18
Q.
All right. With respect
to --
19
strike
that.
20
I know
you
said
you
didn’t
find
21
this conclusion in the EA fish studies that
you
22
reviewed.
Let me
ask
you to assume that it was
23
their conclusion that
because
of contaminated
24
conditions in the UIW, that the ichthyoplankton
Page 138
1
community
was not likely
to
change in the
2
foreseeable
future. Would you agree
with that
3
conclusion?
4
MS. WILLIAMS:
At
this
point I want
5
a
clarification
for the record of the
use
of
6
the term UIW, the definition of the term
7
UIW.
8
MS. FRANZETTI:
I’ll narrow it. I
9
think the way it
was
used
in the reports was
10
a
little broader
than this,
but
for purposes
11
of this question, we’ll
go
from the Chicago
12
Sanitary & Ship Canal
down
to
the 1-55
13
bridge?
14
THE WITNESS:
I’m sorry,
can
you
15
repeat the
question?
16
MS. FRANZETTI:
Let me try and
17
rephrase it.
18
BY MS. FRANZETTI:
19
Q.
I’m going
to
ask
you to
assume,
20
because you
said
you
didn’t
find this conclusion
21
in the report --
-
22
A.
Yes, that’s correct.
23
Q.
All right. So I
want
to just
lay
24
out --
Page 139
1
A.
Assume that
they did.
2
Q.
-- lay
out the question for
you
and
3
ask you
if
you
agree with
it. So with respect
to
the
conclusion that
because of contaminated
5
conditions in the UIW
as
I’ve
just
defined
it
6
creating inherent limitations in the
7
ichthyoplankton community,
do you
agree that it
is
8
not
likely
to
change in the
foreseeable future?
9
A.
Well --
10
Q.
And
you
may not have an opinion
on
11
this?
12
A.
I
do
have
an opinion. I don’t
‘3
really think the chemicals in the bottom are
‘4
limiting
the
ichthyoplankton.
‘5
Q.
Why is that?
16
A.
Well, you’ve
got a
number of nest
17
builders out there, various sun fish species,
18
large mouth
bass,
their population. They
are
19
doing
as
well in that pool
as
we find down river.
20
So
they are
at least finding areas of carrying
out
21
their lifecycles and producing
young
that
are
22
equivalent
to
other impounded parts of the
23
Illinois River, for
example. On the other hand
24
there may
be
-- I mean,
it
wouldn’t surprise
me if
Page 140
1
chemical contamination is a
stressor on some fish
2
along
with other stressors that have been
3
identified
on the system.
So
it could well
be,
4
especially
if there were hot
spots
of
5
contamination
that were identified, that removing
6
some of those or burying them or
whatever, making
7
them less
available
to
fish population could lead
8
to
a
reduction in that stressor, and whatever
9
response might come from that
by
the aquatic
10
community.
11
Q.
Moving
on
to
26, in your testimony
12
you
indicate that, “These waterways could support
13
tolerant or intermediately
tolerant
species.”
14
That’s
Section
3,
fifth
page,
second paragraph.
15
And indicate further that this
conclusion
is based
16
on your personal
knowledge of the CAWS.
Please
17
explain what
personal knowledge
you
are referring
18
to?
19
MR. ETTINGER:
Did your question
say
20
CAWS?
21
MS.
FRANZETTI:
Yes, because that’s
22
what I
believezhe
referenced in this part of
23
testimony.
24
MR.
ETTINGER:
Okay, now we are
Page 141
1
talking
about
the
whole water
body,
not
just
2
the upper Dresden Pool.
3
THE WITNESS: That
I believe pretty
4
well
came from the fisheries report,
the
5
data in the fisheries’ report that was
6
collected
by the district, and that is in
7
the record. And I
think that may have been
8
one of their -- I mean, their
data
really
9
showed that over the years there has
been
a
10
positive response from the fish
population
11
in many parts of
the Chicago area waterway.
12
BY MS. FRANZETTI:
13
Q.
And
what about -- can
you just
14
elaborate in terms of your personal
knowledge is,
15
having
gone through the district’s fish
data,
16
correct?
17
A.
Yeah. I mean
-- right.
18
Q.
Okay. And
based
on that
data, you
19
have drawn the conclusion
that these waterways
can
20
support tolerant or intermediately tolerant
21
species, correct?
22
A.
Some
portions
of the waterways,
yes.
23
Q.
Which portions?
24
A.
Particularly those portions
Page 142
1
designated as
waterway A, the A category. There’s
2
A
and B waters. Those designated A, I think have
3
some that might
be.
Immediately tolerant is not
4
the term that’s being used here. There’s tolerant
5
and -- I get sort of mixed up in the different
terminology.
7
Q.
Were
you
trying
to
mirror the
8
terminology that’s being
used
in the proposed
9
resolution?
10
A.
At that
point I
wasn’t familiar
with
11
the terms that were being
used.
12
Q.
I don’t know I want to take the
13
time, but
it might have been moderately tolerant.
14
MS. FRANZETTI:
Of f the record.
15
(Discussion off the record.)
16
BY MS. FRANZETTI:
17
Q.
Dr. Thomas, maybe let me just ask
18
you directly,
what did
you
mean
by
intermediately
19
tolerant, and can
you
explain that
a
little more?
20
A.
I
think
that was
like small mouth
21
bass
or white sucker, possibly yellow perch.
22
Q.
z
Moving on
to
27.
You
used
the
23
phrase in your testimony,
lower Dresden Pool.
So
24
please identify the boundaries of the area that
Page
143
1
you
are referring
to at the bottom of
page
4
of
2
your testimony where
you reference “lower Dresden
3
Pool, and particularly
is that
-- does
that
4
include any portion of
the pool that is below
5
south
of
the 1-55 bridge?
6
A.
Yes, that needs
to
-- I probably
7
meant either the lower
Des Plaines River,
but more
8
specifically the upper Dresden.
It should
be the
9
upper Dresden Pool, rather than
the lower.
That’s
10
a
correction that should
be
made
as
a
correction
11
in my testimony.
It should
be
the upper
Dresden
12
Pool.
13
Q.
I’m trying not
to
talk over
you,
but
14
I’m never sure when
you are done. For the
court
15
reporter’s sake, I apologize.
16
So there
you
are intending
to
17
refer
to
the upper
Dresden Island pool
as
the
18
Agency has defined its boundaries
in this
19
rulemaking,
correct?
20
A.
Yes, that’s
correct.
21
Q.
Dr. Thomas, I did have
one more
22
follow-up
question on this issue of tolerant,
23
intermediately tolerant
species. My question is,
24
is that
the fish community that -- strike
that.
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Page 147
1
species to raise. T
Its fairly
hearty. But
2
protecting it
isnht
going
to necessarily protect
a
3
variety of other species in the
system that are a
4
little
more sensitive. So I think trying
to pick
5
a
range of
species that sort of have
a
spectrum
of
6
tolerances, if
you will, temperature has been the
7
primary way of looking
at
that,
but
as
I said, it
8
could relate
to
other things, is
a
way
of
trying
9
to
assure
whatever standard
you
are setting can
be
10
protective
of that community. And if
you
want
to
11
be
conservative
about
it, then
you try
to
pick
12
things
on the more sensitive end
to
make sure
you
13
are protecting all of
the system, not
just
the
14
more tolerant points.
15
Q.
Okay.
Moving
on
to
question 29.
On
16
page
5 of your testimony in
the last paragraph
of
17
Section 2,
you
reference that in the EA 1994
18
ichthyoplankton
investigation, which is
attachment
19
LL in this proceeding, that roughly
22,000 larval,
20
young
of year fish were collected. Do
you agree
21
that the EA 1994
investigation also
stated
that
22
only six species or taxa
accounted for 86 percent
23
of those
individuals collected?
24
A.
Yes.
And I think that’s
a
number
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Page 149
1
or not, is another matter. Also, the blunt nose
2
minnows, which is another common fish in the
3
system, lays eggs under rocks or hard substrate.
4
It also will fan the eggs with its tail in moving
5
water past the eggs to provide more oxygen, and
6
obviously
sun fish
eggs which now --
7
Q.
Dr. Thomas, can
I just
interrupt
you
8
there and
say,
and
you
don’t consider their
9
fanning of the
eggs
an adaptation
as
referenced in
10
this question?
11
A.
Well, it is
an
adaptation.
They’ve
12
been doing it for -- I don’t know how far
back
you
13
have
to go.
That’s
part of their life history
14
strategy.
‘5
Q.
My point being, if there’s low DO
16
levels in the water,
those two fishes, unlike
‘7
others, ability
to
fan their
eggs
is an
adaptation
18
to
deal with
in part -- in part it helps them
deal
19
with the low dissolved oxygen levels in
the water,
20
correct?
21
A.
Well,
adaptation probably
goes
way
22
back
to
their history
to
the
fact
that
sometimes
23
organics
and bottom sediments can lower the
24
dissolved oxygen in
those sediments, and fanning
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85:12
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12:11
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Page
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120:14
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Page 160
Commission
108:23 13 1:13
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13:6,20 16:21
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85:16
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100:10 123:13
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69:14
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Conservancy’s
137:23 139:4
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121:23 122:11
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124:14 126:2
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Page 161
cycle 66:18
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Page 162
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59:9
62:1 66:22,23
67:9
70:20,24
76:6,10 78:8
82:2,3,5
83:23
86:11 87:18
88:4 89:7
92:9
102:14
103:14
103:22 105:10
107:16
116:4
128:11
130:24
131:18
135:2
143:14
147:12
148: 14,16
surface
9:18
surprise
139:24
surprised 11:17
survey 8:19
9:1
9:5 10:12,17
11:9,
14, 15
19:19 24:1,15
24:20 25:8,12
25:18 26:11,16
30:9
36:14,19
40:13,24
41:5
69:12,21
80:3
86:1
surveys 8:11,16
10:20 30:8,9
40: 14, 15,17,2
1
40:22
41:2,8
41:10,11
65:1
68:2l
survival 150:2
survive 61:17
Suzanne
7:22
swallows
20:4
swear 6:16,19
swim
52:11
swimming
17:20
sworn
6:23,24
7:2
synergism
22:10
synergistic
21:16
system 1:8 4:7
9:20,21
10:2
19:8,20
24:24
34:7 35:1
50:1
53:15,16,19
62:21
64:13,20
69:9 72:1 79:1
79:19,20
87:17
88 :7, 10,
16
94:19
97:18
99:7,13,20,24
100:6,22
101:9
101:20
111:17
114:6,9
115:7
119:19
122:4
122:13
127:3
135:10
136:8
140:3 147:3,13
148:10
149:3
150:12
152:14
152:21
153:16
153:18
systems
39:18
51:21
64:16
66:13 67:8
76:5 86:24
100:23
111:22
S-O-B-A-S-K-I
27:18
T
T
44:14
table 103:14,16
103:18
105:15
109: 15
tail 17:15
18:1
19:5
67:2 1
68:8,10
73:4
76:23,24
77:3
77: 8,9, 16
80:18
81:16
82:14
85:5
130:21,22
131:11,18
149:4
take 49:13
54:19
54:20
55:7
70:2 84:24
104:1
116:24
117:14 125:16
135:17 142:12
144:6 151:12
151:13
taken 55:9 122:6
151:24
154:9
155:11
takes 88:2 93:4
121:16
taking 145:18
talk 74:22
76:4,9
84:1,2
94:24
143:13
talked
47:7
66:15
85:5
92:2 120:23
129:2 135:23
talking 13:16
25:9 26:15
29:23
30:21
49:7,20,24
55:19
65:21,22
68:24 69:7
74:1,20,24
75:20,22
77:14
80:22
81:22
82:4 93:22
95:3
120:2
124:24 141:1
talks 121:15
tank 52:8
tanks 54:3
Tanner
4:11
targeted 93:18
TARP 99:20
153:16
taxa 147:22
150:10
Tazik27:15
technical 4:16
tell 14:2,12 22:6
24:22
33:6
35:14 42:14
50:17 53:11
62:4 73:1
74:16 75:5
87:18,22
88:5
112:16 118:13
126:3 132:14
1
Iii.
telling 116:10
temperature
52:10, 12,15,19
52:21
94:16
100:8 101:13
102:20,24
103:3,4,8,13
104:8,13,20,23
106:3,5,19
108:3,13,17,18
108:24
109:5
110:4,11,15,21
111:7,24
112:5
112:12,19
113:17,23
145:19 146:12
146:19 147:6
temperatures
51:14,19 52:5
53:8,9
101:14
10
1:19,21
102:2,9 104:12
108:15 109:3,8
109:9,18
110:20,21
111:13,14,18
111: 19,20
112:4,15,22
113:19 114:20
137:6
temporarily
112:9
ten
7:13
25:16
55:7 131:7
132:23 134:7
tend 22:3
52:5
66:l3
87:10,14
96:16 134:13
146:20
tended 35:10
tendency
62:6
tends 3
2:24
term
37:8 51:24
52:2 71:21
83:21
87:16
89:19,20 109:6
114:
7,8, 12
135: 10,15
138:6,6
142:4
145: 14
terminology
142:6,8
terms
12:20
15:14 27:7
29:14 49:20
57:11
61:15
69:11,22 71:21
72:2 75:16
90:22 99:6
112:17
120:2
122:21
141:14
142:11
144:15
150:4
test2l:2
121:9
121:12
127:6,8
testified
7:3
30:3
62:24
72:1
94:12 102:19
152:6
testifier
5:4
testifying
69:8
99:18
testimony
4:22
4:24
5:1,3 6:13
7:6,8
8:6 16:24
17:3 25:6
26:21
33:16
35:16
62:12,17
63:7
75:2,23
78:2,23
80:14
83:22
91:15
92:1,8,17
96:3
102:22
113:6
115:4 117:17
118:2
121:23
122:9
125:23
135:11
140:11
140:23
142:23
1
Al
l
144:23
147:16
thank
6:22
Page
180
26:14
76:20
109:12
154:2
Thanksgivings
57:5
their
19:23
21:24
32:3,4
33:2
36:2,4
40:5
41:2,8,9
48:4 53:15,15
53:16
62:6,19
66:18
67:5
68:1
72:3,10
73:9
79:4
84:16,20
86:18
86:19 89:16,22
91:23 94:14
112:11
115:12
121:3
123:19
124:18
125:1
126: 10,
12,18
127:22
129:5
131:15
133:4
133:23
135:9
136:1
137:23
139:18,2
1
141:8,8
148:11
148:18,23
149:8,13,17,22
150:21
151:5
themselves
9:14
74:3 129:7
thermal
52:7
54:8,11,23
55:1,3
56:17
57:20,24
61:2
61:3
101:18
102:5
108:10
108:22
112:8
112:20,24
113:5
145:2
146:15
thermally
112:
10
thesis
36:11
thin
47:20 48:20
thing
20:23
21:17,20
22:1
24:12
48:20
57:3 87:21
94:17
112:16
things 9:17
21:5
36:7 40:19
47:5 48:23
49:16
65:8
70:14 75:5
85:14 93:2,6
93:15,17
99:8
99:23
101:9
113:21 114:12
122:18 123:10
132:12 147:8
147: 12
think
9:3 13:18
13:20,21
14:3
14:24 15:6
17:5
24:8 27:1
27:2,2
28:1,7
29:11,16 30:16
32:1 34:9 38:5
42:18 43:11
44:8
47:6,8,11
47:17,19
48:6
49:10,23 54:13
54:16,21 57:14
57:22 58:4,16
59:22
61:13
63:2 64:8,9,12
64:17,21,24
65:8 66:7
67:6
69:17,24 70:1
70:5 71:3,6,20
72:4 73:10,17
74:15
75:13
76:8 77:7
78:21
79:5
80:10
81:10
82:16 85:4
86:12,22
88:8
89:21 90:16,18
92:5
93:4
94:12 95:1
96:23 97:11
98:21 99:19,22
100:7,8,9, 14
100:
14,15
101: 10,20,23
102:6 103:24
105:12,13,13
109:10
110:3,5
110:11 113:4,9
113:20 114:19
115:1,18
116:11
118:3,8
123:22 125:7
126
:6, 12, 16
128 :3,24
129:10 133:1,7
133
:9,15,16,20
134:7
136:16
137:3,14 138:9
139:13 141:7
142:2,20
144:12
146:13
146:16,17
147:4,24
151:8
152 :5,8,20
153:24
thinking 24:13
79:16
third 33:17
63:7
Thomas 2:5
4:24 6:21 7:1,5
7:9,21 13:12
21:10
22:19
26:19
28:24
40:10 47:18
55:18
58:3
59:7 61:18
71:7,24 74:11
76:9,22 80:13
84:21
87:12
88:23
95:9,22
105:3 108:9
119:10 127:17
130:13 131:20
142:17
143:21
144:23
145:8
149:7
154:2
Thompson
1:16
THORNBURG
3:2
though 47:5
68:19
74:15
78:3
102:8
thought 26:16
40:7 47:5
66:10 77:2
97:4 128:6
137:13
threatened
46:10
three 24:5
58:7
76:4
thresholds 108:1
thriving
121:16
122:
15
through 24:7
35:13 37:16
39:3
40:12
41:12 42:6,24
43:16 54:3,15
57:18
58:2
69:17 81:12
90:24 91:6
95:2 105:1
107:10
123:10
135:14 141:15
throughout
85:23 90:17
115:15,15
TIA 124:16
1
‘—sr.-,
time 5:15
9:13
11:2 19:16,18
22:21 27:11
32:5 34:6,16
36:15 39:9
55:22
60:16
71:1 84:24
87:8
105:19
110:20 112:7
115:18 117:14
118:17
142:13
146:24
151:14
times
10:21 20:1
20:8 22:24
26:3 32:9
37:21 54:24
55:2 56:24
58:5,7
82:20
100:9
110:9,22
111:15 112:4
118:16
Tipsord2:4 4:1
4:2 6:14,18,22
7:15 27:20
28 :5,9,16,2 1
39:20
55:6,12
74:18 75:6,10
75:18
76:13,19
105:16
106:7
106:18 107:17
119:7 127:16
128:5,14
154:4
tissue 29:11,15
title 27:11
today
4:10,22,23
6:13 7:24
35:10
98:24
99:16
154:1
together
110:3
told
44:19
64:24
120: 17
tolerances
146:15
147:6
tolerant
140:13
140:13
141:20
141:20
142:3,4
142: 13,19
143 :22,23
144:4,4,11,11
147:14
148:15
tolerate 148:12
tool 34:11
top 43:13 112:22
114:1
131:6,7
132:22,24
148:1
topic 54:20
87:8
128:17
topics 54:16
total 13:22
73:11
145:18
totally
33:3
70:3
72:8 82:15
85:20 87:18
112: 17
tox 45:21
toxic 21:1,11
22:3,11
119:24
120:4,24
121:19 123:2
124:23
125:11
125: 13,16
126:
19,24
Page 181
127:5,6
128:18
128:23 129:3
toxicity 19:2 1
20:20 21:8
115:5,12
119:17 120:15
120:20 121:7
121:15 122:2
122:12 123:6
123
:21,24
124:15 125:8
traditional
130:5
traffic 47:14
100: 12
trailer 54:1
training 151:17
transcript
155: 10
translation
111:10
treat 79:17
treatment 81:2
tree 20:4
trees
90:10
tributaries
66:17
81:19,21
82:4
tributary 65:19
tried 35:7
trip 10:3,5
47:8
62:6 85:19
117:1
tropical 61:4,16
trouble 33:8
true 62:4,9 79:1
82:24 118:18
155:9
try 27:6 50:21
70:1 71:16
72:22 79:2
104:3 109:15
119:8
138:16
147:11
trying
15:14
27:231:1 33:6
34:2 36:7
41:24 42:18
45:14 48:5
50:7,17 57:19
59:10 71:8
74:9 86:16
118:4 128:24
131: 19,20
133:15
142:7
143:13 144:14
147:4,8
turbid 116:22
118: 14
turbidity 115:20
116:21 119:10
119: 12
turbine 43:16
turn 5:10
turns 57:9
turtle 46:9
turtles 43:24
46:12
twenty 154:6
two 25:10 57:4
58:7 65:11
66:3 68:23
103:9 108:22
110:3 113:1
122:18 125:7
127:6 148:22
149:16
two-and-a-half
66:3
tying
35:9
type
8:24
19:11
21:5
30:22
38:22 93:22
94:1 97:12
130: 1, 14,16
131:1 132:1,10
133:9
types 32:8 36:7
66:4 93 :4,15
typical38:12
T-A-Z-I-K
27:15
U
UAA 112:4,13
UDP
63:9
UILT 108:15
UIW 136:2,11
137:24
138:6,7
unclear 77:14
under 47:22
113:13 124:21
128:15 149:3
150:
6, 17, 18
underestimate
64:15,20 65:5
73:11
underlying
58:16
understand
40:21
45:15
51:4 52:19
60:20 62:13
63:17 67:9
78:2 80:24
86:16,17 118:5
127:17
131:20
135:1
understanding
34:2 63:15
66:8 67:1,17
75:11,13 95:6
125:4
undervaluing
66:20
unexpected 57:2
uniform 91:2
unimpounded
152:18
unit 4:16
university 121:3
126:5,8
unless 66:19
148:20
unlike 106:14
149:16
unlikely 100:13
unreasonable
50:16
until
5:9
101:4
unusual 1 48:4
upper8:11
9:1
11:3,1112:3,8
22:20,22 24:17
24:19 30:4,17
30:18 35:23
38:2,8 47:1
49:6 50:2,7,8
50:19 51:8
54:8,11,23
61:21 67:14
69:13,22 77:15
78:5 80:19
8 1:5,16,21
82:13 85:2,18
86:8,20 91:16
91:24 92:6,12
92:13 93:24
94:6,10,13
97:8,21 100:2
100:21 101:14
103 :2,4,7, 12
104:7 108:2,14
109:18 110:12
111:7,14 112:5
115:22 116:4
117:6,22 118:6
118:9 119:13
119:20 120:21
126:12 130:8
130: 16,20
132:11,18
135:7,20 141:2
143:8,9,11,17
144:3,9 151:11
152:16
upstream
9:9
15:3 18:10
use3l:18 32:19
32:24
33:9
37:22
43:7,24
50:7,9 65:24
70:11 73:8
79:16,22 80:4
83 :7,23,24
86:10,21 87:7
90:12 113:10
125:2,3 13 1:23
135:10 138:5
144: 19,24
146:2,9
used
34:11,15
37:8
43:18
47:10 63:1
69:3 73:7
82:21 83:21
84:7 87:16
89:20 114:8
116:3 125:4
138:9 142:4,8
142:11,22
144:17,22
145:1
146:4,8
146: 12,24
useful 25:7
using 51:24 52:3
66:7
84:9
86:17 89:19
111:24
112:12
124:15 145:10
145:19,20
150:3
usually 52:11
57:2
83:9
96:19 130:4
132:4
utility 56:3 61:3
utilize 36:16
utilized 127:7
UVP 29:21
U.s 106:20
V
valley 46:3
value
64:20
78:1
78:3
values 63:1
78:21 108:4
137:8
Vandalia 21:21
variables 22:14
22:16
variation
60:5
103 :11
variations
126:23
variety2l:16
31:18 37:21
38:15 52:17
64:18 85:7
86:5,22 91:10
114:11 147:3
150:6 152:21
various 33:19
40:3 49:13
75:14
108:1
139:5
Page 182
139: 17
vegetation 12:23
13:16 16:10
23:13 24:2,11
24:14,23 25:4
26:20 27:13
29:2,21 30:4
30:15 33:1
48:12 72:19
83:12 85:9,11
90:3
91:8
116:14,15,17
116:20,23
117: 10,13
velocity 80:22
81:11
verify 148:1
versus 34:3 59:4
69:23
very8:21 9:21
12:10 18:23
22:14 34:18
37:15 57:10
59:20 67:4
78:3 84:1,9
88:5,15 96:19
101:19 108:18
119:15 127:14
134:11,14
148: 18,23
viable 148:2 1
view
68:18
87:11,15 88:9
115:19
visible 9:17
56:23
visit 11:7,11
12:4 22:20,22
23:1 67:16
visited 14:11,21
19:2
visually 9:16
114:23
walls 91:2
want 6:18 7:16
28:14
63:17
76:6 80:21
89:5 92:13
93:15,22 104:2
105:3
107:5
121:10 130:13
138 :4,23
142:12 144:20
147:10 151:6
wanted 96:24
wants
6:11
warm
57:9,11
warmer 102:1
washed 82:19
wasn’t 17:19
20:13 35:18
48:14 74:9,16
76:11 78:8
142:10
Waste 19:14
20:17 39:4
water 1:5 4:5
15:21 17:15,17
18:5,22,23
19:5 23:22
29:9 32:9,10
35:3,4 36:1
38:
15,2 1,22
43:2,4,4,5,12
43:16,21 45:19
45:24
46:1,1,7
46:8 47:23
51:14,19 53:9
53:17 54:2,3
57:9,10,12
61:14 62:15
63 :5,12,22
64:6 66:17
68 :8,
10 69:11
69:16
70:11,19
71:11,17 72:17
73:4
76:23,24
77:4,8,9,16
78:6 79:9 80:4
80:18,20 81:9
82:12 83:12,14
85:5,8,12
86:9
86:21
87:2,6,7
87:19 90:6,7
90:14 93:8
94:11,14
96:19
98:8 99:1,9
100:22
101:5
101:12 102:8
104:24 106:19
115:21 116:17
116:21,22
118:16 121:11
125 :5,5, 19
130:21,23
131:11,18
134:13 136:4
137:9,17 141:1
148 :4,19 149:5
149:16,19
152:2,11,17
153:17
waters 17:14
18:1 67:21
79:16,22 80:18
81:16 82:14
116:19 118:9
118:11,12,14
142:2 152:4
waterway
1:7
4:6 10:2 127:3
130:3 13 1:3
132:3 135:7,20
141:11 142:1
waterways 9:6
9:12,14 10:17
47:6 62:15
63:21 96:11
99:19 124:21
124:24 140:12
14 1:19,22
Waukegan
39:14
wave 48: 19
waves 48:1,11
way 15:2 30:2
34:10 43:23
44:2 47:7 65:9
99:10 109:10
109:22 120:19
133:16 138:9
145:6 147:7,8
149:21
ways 110:5
116:5
website 28:22
weed 11:16
14:18 15:11,18
15:20
17:12
30:19,22,23
3 1:4,8,10,12
31:18 32:13,17
33:9 71:1
80:10 118:15
weeds 23
:
14
weedy 132:4
week 43 :2 65:22
weekend 43:14
weekly 44:2
106:5
welcome
6:8
well4:19 12:10
13:18 14:1,19
15:19 19:13
22:23 23:8,11
23:23
25:10
27:2 28:16
31:24 32:7
33:7 34:5
35:17 36:11
40:16 42:12
49:10 51:1,19
53:12,18 54:18
56:10,21
57:23
58:7 59:17
62:7,24
63:14
64:7
68:11
70:20 72:24
73:16 78:9
79:6 80:7,21
83:2 85:4,20
86:2 87:9
88:15
89:8
93:2 94:7
95:9
96:9
98:21
99:17 100:5
101:17 103:1
103:18 105:21
106:2,4 107:14
109:1
110:19
112:13,13
115:14 116:14
116:20 117:7
118:20
120:10
120:23
121:23
122:5,6
127:21
129:12 131:14
133: 14,18
134:1
135:22
139
:9, 16,19
140:3
141:4
145:5
146:11
146:14
148:14
149:11,2 1
150:14
151:20
went 5:24
9:9
10:14
13:9
17:7,19
18:17
27:9 41:9
were 11:21
12:8
15:24 17:7,9
19:5,9,11,19
20: 13,19,21
21:2,4,21,22
22:2,5 23:3,14
24:9 27:14
29:10,23
33:24
33:24
34:16,20
34:21,22
35:1
35:9,11,12,13
35:17
36:7,14
36:14 39:4,12
39:16,17 40:7
40:12 43:3
45:4,7,8,11,17
46:18,19
47:12
50:3,12
53:11
53:23 54:24
55:2,2,11,13
55:19,23
56:2
56:10,11,15
57:3,16 58:9
58:10,16,19,20
58:21,23
59:10
60:21,22
64:2
66:12
70:9,16
73:13,14,17
74:8 75:1
W
Wacker 2:15 3:3
wade 18:13,19
wait 5:9,11
124: 12
walk
18:7
Walleye 98:4
Page
183
82:17 90:20
91:24 93:13,14
96:13,22 97:2
99:15
101:2,8
101 :21
102:5
104:15 108:11
108:13 112:4
114:20 115:8
117:9
120:1
121:6,8
124:19
126:11,19
127:6,8 128:23
129:3,9,13,22
131:7,16 133:1
135:23 140:4,5
142:7,11 144:8
147:20 151:18
weren’t 20:10
95:5 101:9
we’ll 28: 13,15
76:17 100:16
107:19 109:12
138:11 154:5
we’re
26:14 31:1
49:21,24 54:10
63:24
67:8
100:12 104:1
106:9
109:5
127:3 150:3
we’ve 20:2,3,5,5
30:21
36:18,21
44:1
91:14
99:2,8,22
129:2 153:20
while 23:3 41:9
121:15,18
129:15
white
101:24
102:19 103:1,8
104:9,12,17
105:24 106:1
108:12
111:8
112:1
114:22
130:2 131:5
132: 8,22
142:2 1
whole 21:3
24:23 27:23
37:21 38:15
39:22 50:1
77:3
84:2,3,14
87:9 100:21
124:15 125:22
141:1
wide 128:12
wider
66:7
widespread
110:7
wild 10:1 103:6
104:20
Williams 2:12
21:9
107:4,14
13 8:4
willing 145:3
windy 37: 15
wintertime 46:5
withdraw 145:4
witness 6:17,23
6:24 14:6
17:21
21:14
23:23 25:10
26:12 27:23
39:23 40:2
75 :4,9, 12
77:18 81:7
90:23 93:1
95:4 105:11
107:21 127:21
128 :2,9,22
138:14 141:3
wood 20:6 61:5
6 1:6,7,16
word 77:10
wording
144:21
words 49:1
56:14 64:17
96:17 125:5
132:21 133:7
work 10:24
13:19 24:14
36:13 40:4
42:21,24 51:13
52:24 53:1,22
55:19
61:24Z
70:23
73:18
74:6
146:23
worked
34:16
35:22 42:19
44:21 53:12
62:7 100:24
104:5
working 15:2
25:13 55:23
101:3
worried 31:6
worse 116:9
wouldn’t 71:2
82:15
84:11
130:24 139:24
write 112:7
written 26:23
127:18
wrote 70:20
x
X-number
114:13
Y
yeah 17:10
19:13 21:14
28:8 39:13
86:22 141:17
year 11:1,12
14:21 22:20
26:13 31:5
37:19
44:5
54:24 55:21
57:1
71:1
85:19
88:2,3
117:11,20,23
118:6 131:7,8
147:20
yearly 30:9
years 23:1 24:21
25:17 30:11
36:19 37:20
38:18 41:6
42:19 53:13
58:8
99:2,5,5
116:17
136:23
137:4
141:9
year’s 117:1
yellow 142:2 1
Yoder 62:24
73:23 103:2
107:11 146:13
146:17
Yoder’s 73:15
74:5 104:15
young 31:5,9
36:5,6 37:3,24
47:16 97:18
131:6 139:21
147:20
z
zero 67:23
68:16
73:5
0
084-0003437
155:17
1
1 8:10
1:00 154:7
1065:13
10,000-meter
65:16
1183:19
11-year 40: 11
1291:12,14
12-year
39:3
13
94:3
1300
2:
15
141:1696:2
1565:14 97:19
99:5
16101:14
17102:17
18109:17
19 111:12 114:6
1950’s 24:20
1960’s 25:12
36:21 98:23
1970’s
100:23
1977 106:23
1980’s
24:3,7
26:20 29:23
1985 9:20 19:8
20:17 39:3
1988 24:8
1991 9:3 10:11
1992 27:11
1994 147:17,21
1997 39:3 40:12
2
28:15
62:12
63:7 102:20
147: 17
20 52:9 99:2
115:3
2003 112:7
2008 40:12
2009 1:16
124: 13
21119:16
22130:1
22,000
147:19
24 135:5
25 136:6
26 26:1 103:13
140:11
27 142:22
28
111:8 112:2
144:6,16
29 111:8 112:2
147:15
3
3
8:23 140:14
30
52:9
151:9
301
1:12 4:8
302 1:12
4:8
303
1:12 4:8
304
1:12
4:9
312
2:17
3:5
32 6:8
32nd 4:20
327 7:9,10,12
8:8
328 106:24
107:1,2
332:15
351:114:8
62:14 112:8
357-1313
3:5
4
433:14 143:1
40 21:18 35:20
4364:10
4400
3:3
45 63:8,21 64:1
64:3,3,10 69:7
70:7,18 71:10
Page 184
71:14 72:22
90’s47:8
117:9
78:4 115:9
91.4 103:9
4677:1,12,15
9519:1420:17
5
5
39:2 147:16
5021:18
24:21
35:20 134:7
500 65:15
500-meter 65:16
66:10
51107:22
6
640:10
6062:1463:21
64:3,3 69:8
70:7,18 71:10
71:15 72:22
78:4
60’s
34:17 99:15
60601 2:16
60606-2833
3:4
7
742:7
70
113
:22
70’s45:23 56:1
98:23 99:15
101:5
7944:10,11
795-3707
2:17
8
8
51:12
80
59:24
80s 76:6
80’s44:9 111:11
117:8
82106:6
84 103:3
85 19:13 20:7
44:10,11
86
147:22 148:2
89
103:5
9
9
62:11 63:19
9:00 1:16
90101:19