Page

ILLINOIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD

THE MATTER

OF:

WATER QUALITY STANDARDS AND

)

R08-09

EFFLUENT LIMITATIONS FOR THE

)

(Rulemaking

CHICAGO AREA WATERWAY SYSTEM

)

Water

AND THE LOWER DES PLAINES

RIVER:

PROPOSED

AMENDMENTS

)

TO 35 Ill. Adm. Code Parts 301,

302, 303 and 304

)

MAY

2009

STATES

LUNOg

POUtjo

Contro

Boa

REPORT OF THE PROCEEDINGS held in the

above

entitled

cause

before Hearing Officer Marie

Tipsord, called

the Illinois Pollution

Control

Board, taken

Steven Brickey,

CSR,

for the

State

of Illinois, 100 West Randolph, Chicago, Illinois,

the

6th day of May, 2009, commencing at the

hour of 1:30 p.m.

LA. REPORTING, INC.

(312)

419-9292

Page 2

APPEARANCES

MS. MARIE

TIPSORD,

Hearing

Officer

MS.

ALISA LIU, Environmental

Scientist

MR. ANAND

RAO, Senior

Environmental

Scientist

MR. TANNER

GIFARD, Acting

Chairman

MR. THOMAS

JOHNSON

DR.

StJNDAR

LIN

ILLINOIS

ENVIRONMENTAL

PROTECTION

AGENCY

1021

North Grand

Avenue

East

P.O. Box

19276

Springfield,

Illinois

62794-9276

(217)

782-5544

BY:

MS.

DEBORAH WILLIAMS

MS. STEPHANIE

DIERS

MR. ROBERT

SULSKI

MR. SCOTT TWAIT

MR.

HOWARD ESSIG

BARNES

THORNBURG

BY:

MR.

FREDRIC P. ANDES

One North Wacker

Drive

Suite

4400

Chicago,

Illinois

60606

(312)

357-1313

Appearing

on behalf

the Metropolitan

Water

Reclamation

District

MR. JAMES E.

HUFF

MR.

JEFFREY

FORT

MR.

ARIEL

TESHER

NATIONAL

RESOURCES DEFENSE

COUNCIL

MS. ANN ALEXANDER

THE

CHICAGO

LEGAL

CLINIC

BY:

MR. KEITH

HARLEY

2938

East 91st Street

Chicago,

Illinois

606017

(773)

731-1762

LA. REPORTING,

INC.

(312)

419-9292

Page 3

ENVIRONMENTAL LAW AND POLICY

CENTER

33 East Wacker

Drive

Suite

1300

Chicago, Illinois

60601

(312) 795-3707

BY:

MR. ALBERT ETTINGER

MS. JESSICA DEXTER

OPENLANDS

BY:

MS. STACY

MEYERS-GLEN

24 East Washington Street

Suite 1650

Chicago, Illinois 60602

(312) 863-6265

FRIENDS

THE CHICAGO RIVER

BY:

MS. MARGARET

FRISBIE

28 East Jackson Boulevard

Suite 1800

Chicago, Illinois 60604

(312) 939-0490

OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL

- STATE OF ILLINOIS

BY:

MS. SUSAN HEDMAN

69 West

Washington Street

Suite

1800

Chicago,

Illinois 60602

(312)

814-4947

REPORTED BY:

Steven J. Brickey, CSR

CSR License No. 084-004675

LA. REPORTING, INC.

(312) 419-9292

Page 4

MS. TIPSORD: Are we ready everyone?

All right.

Before we continue with Mr. Huff, I

understand the Agency has

motion.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

Yes.

I’d like to

make

motion

extend the pre-filed testimony

deadline for the Corn Products witnesses, which

currently May 13th, I believe, until the last week

of June.

MS. TIPSORD: For

the

pre-filed

questions?

MS. WILLIAMS:

I meant

to say

the

pre-filed questions

based on the pre-filed

testimony.

MS.

TIPSORD: We tentatively have

scheduled for the 28th and 29th of July, Corn

Products testimony. We’re moving it from May

25th. Does

Corn

Products

object to

the extension

until the end of June?

MS. HODGE:

Kathryn Hodge for Corn

Products

and, no, we

have no objection.

MS. TIPSORD:

Does anybody else want

to be

heard? Okay. I’ll grant the motion until,

how about,

June

29th? That will be almost a full

month

before the hearing. With that, let’s

begin,

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Page 6

IEPA to ever delineate a

mixing zone such

as to

draw a map

it?

MR. HUFF: Normally, it’s the

dischargers

that conduct the mixing zone study.

MR. ETTINGER: And they

delineate

mixing zone?

MR. HUFF:

Yes.

MR. ETTINGER:

could we

obtain

such a

delineation from Citgo?

MR. HUFF:

Sure.

MR. FORT: I think it’s already been

filed

with the Board and

couple other

rulemakings. So

yes.

MS. IDlERS:

And

you say

you’ve seen

data.

Would it

possible

obtain that

data

that I asked

you

about?

MR. HUFF: Specifically, the data

that you

want is?

MS. IDlERS:

I asked if

you

had seen

data

on temperatures

the

edge

of the

industrial

discharger mixing zone in the

Chicago Sanitary and

Ship Canal. You said yes.

MR. HUFF:

Yes.

MS.

IDlERS:

And I

was wondering if

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MR. HUFF:

I have no knowledge of

that.

MS. IDlERS:

On page

15,

you

mentioned the economic burden of maintaining

optimal conditions in the Chicago Sanitary and

Ship Canal and the Illinois EPA’s proposal has

imposed significant impacts on

the industrial

users of Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal. First,

what

do you

mean when you’re saying “optimal”?

MR. HUFF:

To maximize the aquatic

life.

MS. IDlERS:

How are

you

using the

‘3

term significant in that statement I just read?

MR. HUFF:

Significant economic

impact?

MS. IDlERS:

Yes.

MR. HUFF:

I think --

MS. IDlERS: Significant impact.

MR. HUFF:

-- as

before, that the

impact on the dischargers is going

to be

-- Well,

they’re going

have

discontinue operations

during periods of

elevated

temperature above

the

water quality standards.

MS. flIERS: But you’re referring

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MR. HUFF:

believe it would

relatively uniform just because

of the barge

traffic that passes

through there. It certainly

stratifies between

barges that

pass by.

MS. DIERS:

you

have

any

data to

support

your belief?

MR. HUFF:

No, I do

not.

MS. DIERS:

you

know if --

MS. TIPSORD:

Can we

f the

record

for

just a

minute?

(Whereupon, a

discussion was had

off the

record.)

MS. TIPSORD:

Let’s go

back on the

record.

MS. DIERS:

you

know if there

are

any

refuge available for the blunt

nose minnow in

the Chicago Sanitary

and Ship Canal?

MR. HUFF:

I’m sorry.

Would

you

define refuge?

MS.

DIERS:

Places

when

it’s

hot.

MR. HUFF:

You’re

asking would they

migrate out of

hot areas when the temperature

gets

near 100 degrees Farenheit? In all

likelihood,

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Page 21

MS. TIPSORD:

Right.

Just what he

has relied on.

MR. FORT:

Thank

you.

MS. WILLIAMS:

I’ll withdraw my

question. I was assuming

he was relying on

similar studies, the ones

that

had already seen

and discussed in this proceeding.

So you

can

look

what he submits

and review that.

MR. FORT:

Okay.

MS. DIERS:

Page 15 of your

testimony,

you

mention “Lower Lockport Pool,

the

34 miles of the Ship

Canal,” and then proceed

address fish

data

from Lower Lockport Pool

selected from

the March 2008 report prepared for

Midwest Generation

Engineering. Would it

fair

to say

that this report contains fish

data

for only

a small downstream portion of the

Chicago

Sanitary and Ship Canal, roughly

about five miles?

MR. HUFF:

You know, I don’t know

the answer

that.

MS. DIERS:

Can

you

explain how

you’re using the EA

data

for your

analysis?

MR. HUFF:

The analysis that we did,

we presented their

data

just

out of

matter of

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Page 24

the

most

significant increase -- was the Emerald

Shiner that year. And that’s from

page 3-3 and

attachment six.

MS. DIERS:

Can

you

help her? 3-3

of attachment six?

MR. HUFF:

Yes.

MS. DIERS:

Can

you

help

find

that?

MR. HUFF:

Page 17 of attachment

six.

MS. IDlERS: You mean it’s table

3-3?

Table or figure?

MR. HUFF:

Page --

MS. TIPSORD:

Table

3-3.

MR. HUFF:

Correct.

Table 3-3 on

page

17.

MS. DIERS:

page

17, paragraph

four, states “the Ship Canal on the Calumet-Sag

Channel has similar fishery quality.” Do

you

know

if the DO standards for the two sides are the

same?

MR. HUFF-

don’t

know

that

specifically, no.

MS. DIERS:

you

know what they

Page 25

are in either in

-- the

standard for the Ship

Canal and the DO

standard in --

MR. HUFF:

I can

go by

recall,

you

like. I believe that there’s

three

milligram per liter minimum and

four milligram

per liter that may

16 hours a day

and I believe

they are the same.

MS. DIERS: Would it surprise you

said Cal-Sag had

lower DO standard?

MR. HUFF:

Would it

surprise me?

MS. DIERS:

Mm-hmm.

MR. HUFF:

Yes.

MS. DIERS:

page

19, the

conclusion states

“in AS96-lO, the Board’s

opinion

noted

that the Agency’s opinion

was that the

cost

of installing additional

cooling may not

economically

reasonable when compared to

the

likelihood of no improvement in

the aquatic

community of the

UIW.

you

know the cost

involved

with installing cooling towers at

the

facilities associated with

A696-lO?

MR.

zHUFF:

Not specifically, no.

MS. DIERS:

you

know,

if any, of

the

cooling towers were installed at

the

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Page

MS. WILLIAMS:

I’m

going

show you

the Agency’s

regular

proposal.

I don’t

know

that

it’s

an exhibit.

MS.

TIPSORD:

think

it’s

just

part

of the

attachment.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

And

I like

you

look

-- it

may

little

bit

confusing,

but

I’d

you

look

the section

marked

dissolved

oxygen

and

see

if you

can

read the

portions

that

are

being

struck

out,

which

would

the

current

MS. TIPSORD:

Ms. William’s,

could

you

give

the

proposed

rule

section?

MS.

WILLIAMS:

Absolutely.

I’m

actually

asking

him

to read

what’s

currently

302405

the regulations

part,

title

35.

MS.

TIPSORD:

The existing

rule or

the

proposed

rules?

MS.

WILLIAMS:

He’s reading

from the

proposed

rules,

but

I’m

asking

him

to read

the

part

that’s

in there

now.

MR.

FORT:

You’re

asking

him

read

what’s

been

struck

through

the

proposal?

MS.

WILLIAMS:

can’t

see

it,

but

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what the actual

dissolved

oxygen

levels

are

that are obtained.

MS. DIERS:

I’m just

asking

if it’s

possible.

MR. HUFF: Is

possible

that

have lower

DO’s on the

Cal-Sag

than on the

Ship

Canal?

MS. WILLIAMS:

Yes,

that’s the

question.

MR. HUFF:

Well,

my recollection

that

after

combined

sewer

overflows you

get

dissolved

oxygen levels

that

are

significantly

below that

standard.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Where?

MR.

HUFF:

On the

Ship Canal.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Do you

happen

recall

when that

standard

was established

for

the

DO in the

Cal-Sag and

the Sanitary

and

Ship Canal?

MR.

HUFF:

I don’t.

MR. FORT:

Madam Hearing

Officer,

can I ask

another

clarification?

MS.

TIPSORD: Absolutely.

MR. FORT:

Mr.

Huff,

your

understanding

of the

environmental

conditions

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Channel?

MR. HUFF:

I’m sorry.

Could

you

rephrase

or repeat that?

MS. DIERS:

Yeah. I’ll

think of

better

way

explain it.

I think

you

said

you

were referring

DO limitation,

wet weather,

rapid changes,

and my question

does

that apply

the

Cal-Sag

Channel?

MR.

HUFF: It probably

applies

there

the extent

that

there are CSO’s

there.

MS. DIERS:

you

know would

CSO’s

have more

of an

impact than

summer DO saturations?

MR. HUFF:

Summer DO

saturations?

MS. DIERS: When

it’s sagging

in the

summer is

what I’m referring

to.

MR. HUFF:

I’m sorry.

Could

you

repeat that?

I don’t understand

that

question.

MS. DIERS:

Would

CSO’s have

more of

an impact

in dropping DO?

MR.

HUFF:

Than

MS. DIERS:

Than

summertime

high

temperatures.

MR.

HUFF:

don’t know that

I can

answer that.

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Page

Route

the only site with temperature data

over

that entire period?

MR. HUFF: That could

correct.

We were

just

trying to

all inclusive

in all the

available data that

had.

MS. IDlERS:

And are

you

aware that

Halsted

Avenue is located on the Little Calumet

River?

MR. HUFF:

knew that was down

somewhere by the

head water

the Cal-Sag. I

didn’t know that specifically.

MS. IDlERS: And attachment

six

you

talk about

habitat quality and I think it’s on 3.3

in that section

because

I don’t

have all the

page

numbers.

I don’t know if there are

page

numbers

this whole report,

but

my question is

do you

know if MWRDGC followed Ohio QHEI procedures when

they’re

collecting their

QHEI

information?

MR. HUFF:

I don’t know

specifically.

would assume that they

were

following the same

one that the

Illinois EPA

follows.

MS.

IDlERS:

In section four of

attachment six is your

discussion

section. You

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Page 41

MR. HUFF:

Can you

clarify that

proposed standard

how long is that -- is that

two-month standard you’re referring

to?

MS. DIERS: It’s the average of all

July and August.

MR. HUFF:

That’s

the

proposed

standard? There’s

July and August one?

MS. DIERS:

Yes.

MR.

HUFF:

Yes.

MS. flIERS:

In your opinion, do

you

think biological conditions would improve in the

Chicago

Sanitary

and Ship Canal if additional SEPA

stations were created?

MR. HUFF:

I would think

based

the change in the fish in the

Cal-Sag, the answer

that would likely

be yes.

MS. flIERS:

I’m going

table 4-1.

I’ll give

you

time

to catch

up.

If there’s

page

numbers, it might

26. Are

you

there, Mr. Huff?

MR. HUFF:

Yes, ma’am.

MS. flIERS:

What are the specific

sources

the fish IBI and QHEI

data used to

derive

information in table 4-1 of attachment six?

MR.

HUFF:

The

MWRDGC

data

that’s

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Page 44

MS.

DIERS:

And

you

also

have on

table

4-1

-- there’s two

ATI categories

and

IBI

categories.

Where did

these categories

come

from?

Were

those from Ohio,

you

know?

MR.

HUFF:

I believe those

came from

the Camp Dresser

McKee

report.

MS.

DIERS:

What

did you say

Camp --

MR.

HUFF:

The

UAA

report

on the

Chicago

Area

Waterway System.

MS. DIERS:

where

the IBI and

the

QHEI --

MR. HUFF:

Yes.

MS.

DIERS:

Was the

Ohio EPA

fish

IBI used

calculate

the fish

IBI’s

shown in

table 4-1?

MR.

HUFF:

I can’t

answer that.

MS.

WILLIAIVIS:

Can I ask a

quick

clarification?

When you

were

talking

about

the

CD, do you

remember

what I’m talking

about,

the

information

that

was provided

the

CD?

MR. HUFF:

Yes.

MS.

WILLIAIVIS:

Was

that

information

filed

with the

Citgo testimony

or the

Corn

Products testimony?

I’m

getting a

little bit

Page 45

confused

in my own mind.

MR. TESHER:

That was filed with the

Citgo

testimony.

MS. WILLIAMS:

The updated

Citgo

testimony in May?

MR. TESHER:

Yes.

MS. DIERS:

Okay.

I’m going to

figure 3-1. I don’t have page

numbers again.

MS. TIPSORD:

Did you say

figure

3-1?

MS. DIERS:

Yes.

I’m sorry.

gave

you

the wrong one. Table -- page

15. My fault

confuse

everyone. Table 15.

MR. FORT:

Table or page?

MS.

DIERS: Table,

yes.

Sorry.

think we’re at

table 3-1 and for those who have

page

numbers, it’s

page

15. What are the specific

sources of information used to

create table 3-1 on

page

15 of your thermal evaluation?

MR. HUFF: As referenced

in the

first paragraph on page 14, it’s

the historical

fisheries

collection from the Illinois Natural

History survey and the Illinois Department

Natural Resources.

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Page 48

MR. TESHER:

you

look at the

references

the end

the

report

where

he lists

the sources.

MR. ETTINGER:

At the end of which

report?

MS. TIPSORD:

One

at a

time.

MR. FORT:

Look

Mr.

Huff’s

report, the attachment,

page

27, the list of

references, the website for the Illinois Natural

History

survey.

MR. ETTINGER:

see.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Is that information

from that

website included in the attachments

your report?

‘5

MR. HUFF:

I don’t believe

so.

MR.

FORT:

So, Mr. Huff,

you

did not

download the entire website and attach it

to your

report?

MR. HUFF:

It might be there.

I’m

not sure.

MR. FORT:

Where?

MR.

HUFF: zOn that CD.

MS. WILLIAMS:

There’s

document

that. is attached and I’m sorry, Marie,

but --

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Page 50

we can

just

let Mr. Huff explain how table

3-1 was

prepared and what else is in the report

that

relates

that. I think that might be

the most

expeditious

way.

MR. HUFF:

Included in the report,

which was attachment six, appendix A, we tried

put

in all the

data

that we utilized in

putting

that table together. And

then in response

Mr.

Ettinger’s question, the historical

data

seems

back

1967. There’s

couple of 1967

entries.

MS.

IDlERS:

Would

you

expect

find

the

Pallid Shiner in the Chicago Sanitary

and

Ship

Canal?

MR. HUFF:

I would not and I’d

suspect

that’s probably an error on our

part. In

looking through appendix A, the

Pallid Shiner,

there’s been

three that have been found downstream

of the 1-55 bridge.

MS.

IDlERS:

Would

you

expect

find

the

Slenderhead Darter in the Chicago Sanitary and

Ship Canal?

MR.

HUFF:

don’

know.

That’

beyond

expertise.

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Page 53

MS.

DIERS:

How often depth

-- do

you

have

any

information

about

that?

MR. HUFF:

I’m sorry.

How often --

MS. DIERS:

How often are

the

depths

-- is it continuous monitoring

in the

water? Do

you

have any of that

information, how

they

that?

MR. HUFF:

How frequently do

they

record temperatures? I believe it’s

hourly.

MS. DIERS:

Hourly.

Okay.

you

know the depth

of the continuous monitoring

station

in the water, how far down

in the water?

MR. HUFF:

would speculate they

would be at

mid depth.

MS. DIERS:

I’m

going

to go

back

figure 3-1. I

apologize. I think we asked a few

questions

on that. Can

you just

explain

each of

the points on 3-1 and I don’t

have

a page

number.

MS.

TIPSORD:

Five.

MS. DIERS:

Page

five.

MR. HUFF: And

the question is, can

Iexplain

how this was derived?

MS. DIERS:

Yes.

MR. HUFF: We

took all of the data

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Page 57

have

been collected

over

a five-year

period.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Mr.

Huff, are you

saying

that they might

present

in the

Ship

Canal,

just

haven’t

found

them?

MR.

HUFF:

Sure.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Okay.

Thank

you.

MS. DIERS:

That’s

all I

have

right

now.

MS. TIPSORD:

Then let’s

move

onto

the

Environmental

Law and Policy

Center.

MR.

ETTINGER:

I don’t

want to

move

everybody here,

but

I’m not sure

the

court

reporter

wants me

talking to

the back

of his head.

THE

COURT

REPORTER:

You’re

okay.

MR. ETTINGER:

Let’s

back

here on

the testimony.

page

five

of your testimony

four

and five of

your

testimony,

think

those

are

the same page

numbers

on your testimony.

I’ll

just

read them. The

identifying

causes

impairment,

and

this is

for the

Ship Canal,

for

polychlorinated

biphenyls,

iron,

oil, grease,

dissolved

oxygen,

total

nitrogen

and total

phosphorous.

you

believe

that

all of these

pollutants

affect the

Sanitary

and Ship

Canal?

Page 58

MR. HUFF:

Could you

define affect?

MR. ETTINGER:

you

think they

affect the aquatic

life in the Sanitary and

Ship

Canal?

MR. HUFF: That’s

tough question.

Iron would

be a

classic example.

I’d

hard

pressed

believe

iron

having any influence on

the

aquatic life in that Canal. PCB’s, to

the

extent

they would make the fish

potentially

unsuitable

for eating,

but

maybe

not from

survival reproduction

perspective.

MR. ETTINGER:

Looking

-- I’m

sorry.

We’re

you

finished with your

answer?

MR. HUFF:

I don’t know

what the

dissolved oxygen levels are.

It’s listed

impaired, which means it’s

not meeting the water

quality.

Depending on how long they would stay

down, it potentially could

an effect. It

depends on

what’s controlling the aquatic

community

that

you

have there.

MR. ETTINGER:

Do you

know if the

nitrogen

and phosphorous is having an affect?

MR. HUFF:

I’d actually be

surprised. Ammonia levels are so

low

you

don’t

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Page

purpose of

regulations

those plants,

but

ahead, Mr.

Ettinger.

MR.

FORT:

Can I clarify?

MR. ETTINGER:

I didn’t really

why

don’t

we read the

question back

and let him

answer

it although

if Mr.

Ford has an

objection

MS. TIPSORD:

Actually, he

would

like to

clarify the

question.

MR. FORT:

I would like

clarify

the question

when you’re

talking

about

the

standards,

you’re talking

about

the standards

being proposed

in this

rulemaking?

MR.

ETTINGER:

That’s

a good

point.

And this

may vary within

the Sanitary

and

Ship

Canal.

Were

some or all

of those plants

for whatever

reason,

would

that affect

the

likelihood

of the remaining

thermal dischargers

causing

violation of

the standards

that were

proposed

in this proceeding?

MR. HUFF:

The answer

yes.

MR.

ETTINGER:

And how

would that

happen?

MR. HUFF:

Well, if

you set

the

shoulder

month

at what

the MWRDGC effluents

Page

currently are,

there’s

literally

no thermal

capacity

remaining

in those

shoulder

months and

you

have

industrial

dischargers

so once

through

cooling

water,

are pulling

out

BTU’s

and

that

water

is warmer

than what

the MWRDGC

effluent is.

MR. ETTINGER:

And that would

applicable

during the

shoulder

months?

MR. HUFF:

Yes.

MR. ETTINGER:

Which are

the

shoulder

months?

MR. HUFF:

Non-summer.

MR. ETTINGER:

Would that

be true

outside

of any mixing

zone?

MR. HUFF:

Yes.

Because

if the

stream

is already

at the

thermal limit,

you can’t

add

any

it with

or without

mixing.

MR. ETTINGER:

Have

you studied

whether

there’s any

cooling

that occurs

between

the

Stickney

Plant and

your

Lemont facility

the

winter?

MR.

HUFF: There

is cooling,

yes.

MR. ETTINGER:

So have

you

studied

whether

the water

cools

enough

in the winter

between

Stickney

and Lemont

such

that

you could

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Page 66

the

question.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Yes.

MR.

HUFF: You’re

talking with

respect to

Citgo

and their

refinery?

MR. ETTINGER:

Correct.

MR. HUFF:

have looked at

that

briefly

and under the

scenario that you

outlined,

believe they

would

okay.

MR. FORT:

Excuse

me.

Meaning

the

scenario that

the power

plants are no

longer

operating?

MR. HUFF:

Right.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Now, going

back into

our

world in

which -- I’m sorry.

Let’s look at

page

nine.

says

starting

the second

full

paragraph,

“the economic

impact of the

proposed

changes

in thermal

chloride, sulfate

and mercury

will

significant.” Leaving

thermal aside,

it’s

understanding that

your concern

is that the

Citgo refinery

will lose its

mixing zone

for

chloride,

sulfate and mercury?

MR. HUFF:

Yes.

MR. ETTINGER:

Okay.

Is it your

understanding

that the

IEPA currently

rewrites its

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Page 69

for a hypothetical situation that if

the EPA

and -- forgive me if I misinterpreted

this. If

the

EPA were

to no longer demand compliance

Pike and the water

quality standard is changed,

would that affect

your concern

about

the mixing

zones?

MS. FRANZETTI:

And I’m

just going

to object. I think the answer is vague and

confusing.

MS. TIPSORD:

Hey, I’m on this side

of the chair.

MS.

FRANZETTI:

You tried

make it

clearer,

but

I don’t think it’s

possible.

MR. HUFF:

If we

back and look

302 102

(b)

(9) , it

states “no mixing is allowed

where the water quality standard

for the

constituent

in question is already violated in

receiving stream.”

It’s black and white in the

Board’s regulation.

with that

premise,

Mr. Ettinger,

could

you

ask me that question with

that premise?

MR. ETTINGER: Actually,

you’ve

answered my

question.

I thank

you

very much.

plan to

quote you

hearing and PDS

Page

permit.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Are you

moving

away

from

mercury?

MR.

ETTINGER:

No, I’ve

just

begun

mercury.

Let’s

talk about

mercury

which

is on

exhibit -

I think

-- I believe

it’s

attachment

three,

mercury

limits -- levels

Chicago

Sanitary

and

Ship Canal,

is that correct?

MR. HUFF:

Yes.

MR. ETTINGER:

Now, I’m not

so good

with

the

metric

system,

but

my understanding

according

this chart

you

have

one violation

that was

found of

the 12 parts

per trillion

standard

for

mercury in the

Chicago

Sanitary and

Ship Canal?

MR.

HUFF:

One

out

of ten, yes.

MR. ETTINGER:

And

it’s

your

understanding

then based

on your

rule and

this

basis

for

your

testimony then

that

should

“were

general

use

standard

applicable

here,

that

would not

allow any

mixing

for mercury

for

any

discharger

to that

water”?

MR. HUFF:

Correct.

MR. ETTINGER:

Looking

these

Page 71

numbers, do you

have any knowledge

what

might have

caused

that violation of the

mercury

standards.

MR.

HUFF: Well, in

part, the flow

has

to be

greater than the

harmonic mean. We had

another

value

13,

but

it was below -- the flow

was

below the harmonic mean. So it’s

not strictly

wet weather phenomena.

We’ve had two values

that were recorded over twelve out

of the ten.

MR.

ETTINGER:

Based on your

study

the system,

do you

know what the likely sources

of mercury are in that system?

MR. HUFF:

No, I don’t.

MR. ETTINGER:

What

dilutes the

water or what level of

dilution

do you

have --

Strike

that. What happens

discharges of

chloride, mercury and these other

pollutants in

the Sanitary and Ship

Canal?

MR. HUFF:

Can we break them

down

one

at a

time?

MR.

ETTINGER:

Yeah.

MR. HUFF: Chlori-des are for

all

practical purposes infinitely soluble.

They will

move down

into

the Illinois

River into the

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Page 73

the Sanitary and

Ship

Canal contributing

to the

level of chloride at the 1-55 bridge?

MR. HUFF:

I’m sorry.

Could

you

restate that? I didn’t hear the beginning.

MR. ETTINGER:

Are

discharges

chloride made

the Sanitary and Ship Canal

contributing

the levels of chloride

the 1-55

bridge?

MR. HUFF: Well,

it’s

highway

deicing.

It’s the primary source of

those

violations.

MR. ETTINGER:

I understand what the

primary source is. My question is -- let me

change the question slightly. Is chloride

discharged in the Sanitary and Ship Canal reaching

the 1-55 bridge?

MR. HUFF:

Yes.

MR. ETTINGER:

Thank

you.

Is it

your understanding that IEPA would prohibit

mixing

zone for

chloride if it was causing or

contributing

to a

violation of standards in

downstream waters?

MR.

HUFF:

In downstream waters, no.

I think in that

case, they

would

entitled

to a

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no mixing zone is allowed despite regulations

that

appear contrary to this position.” Could you

further explain what you meant there?

Specifically, what recent Agency action and what

regulations

that appear

contradict this

position?

MS. TIPSORD:

Excuse me.

Before

you

answer

that

question if

that specific issue is on

appeal

before the Board, then I would prefer that

we not discuss it.

MR. FORT:

you

know if

it’s on

appeal?

MR. HUFF:

Not that I’m aware

of.

MS. TIPSORD:

Okay.

Then

ahead.

MR. HUFF: The permit I’m referring

is the Conoco Phillips Wood River

Refinery

permit and there was a

second

part to

your

question.

MR. ETTINGER:

I’m just

trying

find out about

that sentence. What’s going on

there? I don’t understand what you’re talking

about.

MR. HUFF:

you

look

the

mercury regulation in the Board’s rules, it

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that, the next

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we’re going

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load allocation that

will take that mercury level potentially even

lower and then

you’d

have the same thing

the

MWRDGC plant,

potentially combined sewer overflows

and all the other

industries.

MR. ETTINGER:

I think I understand

now.

Let

me try and

get

this right. There’s

Great

Lakes

rule that there’s no mixing zone for

bio

cumulative

toxins like mercury, is that

correct?

MR. HUFF:

Yes.

‘3

MR. ETTINGER:

And in

the

Conoco

permit, you’re saying that IEPA applied that rule

although the Conoco discharges is

not to the Great

Lakes.

MR. HUFF:

Correct.

MR.

ETTINGER: And your position is

that that’s an incorrect interpretation of

Illinois law, but that if we were

change the

- standard here and

IEPA

would

be allowed to

make

that interpretation that

you

believe is incorrect,

that

that would

affect your client?

MR. HUFF:

That’s

part of

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now,

but I have that

data.

didn’t

put

it in

this report,

but

there is

thermal component in

the Citgo

discharge.

MR. ETTINGER:

Much higher than 55

degrees?

MR. HUFF: In the winter

months, it

potentially

could

be.

you got

ambient

temperatures in

the 30

40 degrees Farenheit,

yes.

MR. FORT:

May

I ask a follow up

explain that?

MR. ETTINGER:

Yes, please.

‘3

MR. FORT:

Mr. Huff,

do you

know

some of the

processes that Citgo

uses,

for

example, in the waste water treatment

plant that

causes

them

to elevate the temperature in their

waste water?

MR. HUFF:

Well,

yes, I do.

MR.

FORT:

And what is that?

MR. HUFF:

It’s kind of

multi

answer. In biological treatment

systems, they

inject

steam into the waste water

maintain

temperature for

ammonia removal, the

nitrification, and then they have other

streams.

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Page 84

MR. ETTINGER:

Is it your

understanding that cold shock figures in the

Agency’s

proposal

relating

non-summer

temperatures?

MR. HUFF: I missed that. If that’s

indeed the

case,

I wasn’t aware of that.

MR. ETTINGER:

Let’s look

attachment six and

this will present all sorts of

challenges in terms

getting --

MR. ANDES:

Can I follow

while

you’re looking for that?

MR. ETTINGER:

That

would be a great

idea.

‘4

MR. ANDES:

As to the Cal-Sag

Channel, Mr. Huff -- first of all, let me ask

you.

Have

you

reviewed the forwarded testimony

John

Mackey cornering habitat

restrictions on the CAWS?

MR. HUFF:

I have not.

MR.

ANDES:

Including his

conclusions

as to

habitat restrictions in

the

Cal-Sag?

MR. HUFF:

I have not.

MR. ANDES:

Okay.

And is

it your

impression that

DO were improved on the

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Page 87

add up

all the other

eight RAS species? But you

could do that, I

suppose.

MR. ETTINGER:

But all things

created

-- being equal,

you

wouldn’t expect

find

whole

lot of blunt nose and

whole lot of

Emerald Shiners in

the same place?

MR. HUFF: Yes, and

I think that’s

true

some situations.

MR. ETTINGER:

Okay.

I want

through what has

been marked

attachment six

and

look now

figure 3-1, which is

your map.

Ms. fliers has

gone through some of this. I

just

want

make sure the sites

where they are

relative

to various important things on the

Sanitary and Ship Canal

-- on figure 3-1, which

think is

page

71 of the whole

exhibit, and I

don’t

know what it

is in your attachment.

MR. HUFF:

Page five.

MR. ETTINGER:

What?

MR. HUFF:

Page five.

MS. flIERS:

Cicero Avenue, that’s

the hottest

part in the Sanitary

and Ship Canal

because

it’s right

below Fisk and Crawford,

right?

MR. HUFF:

Yes.

Page

MR.

ETTINGER:

Does B & 0

Railroad

-- that’s below Stickney?

MR.

HUFF:

think so.

MR. ETTINGER:

Okay.

And

then does

anything important thermally happen between the

B & 0

Railroad

and the Illinois Route

83, to your

knowledge?

MR. HUFF:

Not that I

have

knowledge.

MR. ETTINGER:

there’s no

discharge of either

cooler or warmer water between

those two spots?

we have cites

here for Romeo

Road and RM6.

Was the

data

collected

RM6

or at

Romeo Road?

MR. HUFF:

I think they switched

sampling locations

and that’s why

you

have two

different

data sets

for

those two years.

MR. ETTINGER:

Where

does the

Cal-Sag Channel come

in here?

MR. HUFF:

Upstream

of that

location.

MR. ETTINGER:

Does it come in

between Illinois Route

and

this Romeo Road?

MR. HUFF:

Yes.

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MR. ETTINGER:

I’m looking

at table

3.2. And that’s

at Cicero, right?

MR. HUFF:

Yes.

MR. ETTINGER:

And 24

river miles,

that is

-- that’s closer

& 0, isn’t

it?

MR.

HUFF:

Yes.

MR. ETTINGER:

Okay.

When we look

the

relative abundance of

fish at the -- no.

Let’s forget

about relative

abundance at the time.

If we

just

look

at the 2005 number for

gizzard

shad, comparing B

& 0, the cool

spot,

versus

Cicero Road,

see a

significant

difference?

MR. HUFF:

In absolute number of

fish.

MR.

ETTINGER:

And if we look

relative abundance

of the Sanitary and Ship

Canal

for

Emerald Shiner and blunt

nose minnow, what

percentage

do we get?

MR. HUFF:

The percentage Emerald

Shiner

plus blunt nose minnow?

MR.

ETTINGER:

Right.

MR.

HUFF: At those stations?

MR. ETTINGER:

Right.

MR.

HUFF:

For 2005?

Page 92

MR. ETTINGER:

Well, no.

You give

relative

abundance here. I think it

collects them

for the whole period

in your table where

says

relative abundance.

MR. HUFF:

Okay.

That’s in the

entire

Ship Canal.

MR.

ETTINGER: That’s

in the entire

Ship Canal relative.

Relative abundance

of these

two cooler more heat

sensitive species?

MR. HUFF:

Yes.

MR. ETTINGER:

The

relative

abundance is -- math

wasn’t my

best subject,

but

‘3

think 5.6.7.9

is 13.5?

MR.

HUFF:

So you’re adding

which

ones

up?

MR. ETTINGER:

I’m

adding Emerald

Shiner and blunt

nose minnow.

MR. HUFF:

Yes.

MR.

ETTINGER:

nd the relative

abundance of carp in

the Sanitary and

Ship Canal

is 17.4

percent, that’s

your understanding of

what

the Water

Reclamation

District found?

MR.

HUFF:

Yes.

MR.

ETTINGER:

And then we

can

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Page 103

handles

approximately

double the

number

barges

that are

the

Cal

Sag.

MR. FORT:

And

in your testimony,

you

were asked

some

questions

about the uniqueness

the Ship Canal

opposed to

other

bodies

water.

And I think

your

testimony has,

like,

different

factors.

Then

you

go to

the thermal

issue

from the

power

plants

and the

chloride

runoff.

So is your

testimony

on the

uniqueness

the

Ship Canal

all in

totality

there?

MR. HUFF:

indeed.

MR. FORT:

Thank

you.

MR. ETTINGER:

Just

up one

question.

you know what

percentage

of the

barge traffic

in the

Sanitary

and Ship Canal

moving

coal

the Midwest

power

plants?

MR.

HUFF:

not.

MR. ETTINGER:

Thank

you.

MS. TIPSORD:

Anything

else for

Mr. Huff?

Okay.

Thank

you, everyone.

I will

see

22Z

you

all

May 20th.

We’re adjourned.

Page 104

STATE

OF ILLINOIS.

)

SS.

COUNTY

COOK

I, Steven Brickey, Certified Shorthand

Reporter,

hereby certify that I reported in

shorthand

the proceedings had

the trial

aforesaid, and

that the foregoing is

true,

complete and correct

transcript of the proceedings

of said trial

appears from my stenographic

notes so taken and transcribed under my personal

direction.

Witness my official signature in and for

Cook County, Illinois,

on this

day of

A.D., 2009.

STEVEN BRICKEY,

29 South LaSalle Street

Suite

850

Chicago, Illinois

60603

Phone:

(312)

419-9292

CSR No. 084-004675