Page 1

ILLINOIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD

IN THE MATTER OF:

WATER

QUALITY

STANDARDS AND

)

R08-09

EFFLUENT LIMITATIONS FOR THE

)

(Rulemaking

CHICAGO AREA WATERWAY SYSTEM

)

Water)

AND

THE

LOWER DES PLAINES

RIVER:

PROPOSED AMENDMENTS

TO 35 Ill. Adm. Code Parts

301, 302,

303

and 304

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS held in the

above-entitled

cause

before Hearing Officer Marie

Tipsord, called

the Illinois Pollution

Control

Board, taken before Laura Mukahirn, CSR, a

notary

public within and for the

County

of Cook and State

of Illinois,

160 North LaSalle Street, Suite 505,

Chicago,

Illinois, on the 3rd

day

of March, 2009,

commencing

the hour of 1:00 p.m.

Page 2

APPEARANCES

MS. MARIE TIPSORD,

Hearing Officer

MR. G. TANNER GIRARD, Chairman

MR. THOMAS JOHNSON, Member

MR. ANAND

RAO, Member

MS. ALISA LIU, Member

DR. SHUNDAR LIN, Member

MR. GARY BLANKENSHIP, Member

Appearing on behalf

of the Illinois

Pollution Control Board

ILLINOIS ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

1021 North Grand Avenue East

P.O. Box 19276

Springfield, Illinois 62794-9276

(217)782-5544

BY:

MS. DEBORAH WILLIAMS

MS. STEPHANIE DIERS

MR. ROBERT SULSKI

MR. SCOTT TWAIT

BARNES

THORNBURG

One North Wacker Drive

Suite 4400

Chicago, Illinois 6606-2833

(312)357-1313

BY:

MR. FREDRIC P. ANDES

Appearing on behalf of the Metropolitan

Water Reclamation District

Page 3

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

Let’s

back on the record. We will start with

Mr. Mastracchio’s testimony.

LetTs

swear him

in again. I realize actually

-- give me --

Mr. Fork -- Go back

off

the

record.

(Off

the record.)

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

Let’s

ahead then. Sorry

about

that. And

we’ll

have Mr. Mastracchio

sworn

back in,

please.

(Witness sworn.)

MR. ANDES: Here is his testimony.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD: If

there

no objection,

we will enter the prefiled

testimony of John Mastracchio

Exhibit

No. 223.

Seeing none, it is Exhibit 223.

And, Miss Williams, I have my notebook mixed

up, but

I understand you have

some prefiled

questions.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Page 76.

have

a few

left on that

page,

yes. Good

afternoon,

Mr.

Mastracchio. Welcome back. I’ll start

with Question No. 1 from my prefiled

questions under

your

dissolved

oxygen

Page 4

testimony. Based on the

cost

provided

Mr. Zenz and others -- I should say

Dr.

Zenz

and others,

do you

have an

opinion on how

many supplemental aeration

stations could

built and operated by

the District without

exceeding

the financial limitations

you

described?

MR. MASTRACCI-IlO:

I don’t.

No, that

analysis wasn’t completed.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

So you

looked

all-or-nothing

type

scenario?

MR. MASTRACCHIO:

That’s

correct.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Question two:

you

know if the

cost you

relied on

for your

analysis

took into account the improvements

from

TARP when establishing design treatment

targets?

MR.

MASTRACCHIO:

No, I don’t know.

MR. ANDES:

I think Dr. Zenz answered

that question.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

Would your conclusions

change

if the

cost

figures had

to be updated

address this or other issues?

MR.

MASTRACCHIO:

It would obviously

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MR. MASTRACCHIO:

No, they do not.

MS. WILLIAMS:

you

want

explain

why?

MR. MASTPACCHIO:

Well, the reason why

is that I have no idea

this point whether

any economic stimulus will wind its way

the District and could

be used

for any

of the

projects that were identified

part of my

testimony. So that’s the reason.

MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. And potentially

if some funds were

available to fund other

projects that are on the books, could that

potentially

change

any of your conclusions?

MR. MASTRACCHIO:

I think the

magnitude of the

cost

associated with DO and

the amount

stimulus money that’s available

throughout the -- for the water

and

sewer

component of the stimulus, it wouldn’t

change

conclusion.

Because I don’t think the

amount of stimulus money would make any

difference on the analysis.

MR.

ANDES:

I can follow

up.

Mr. Mastracchio, in Table

1 of your detailed

report, if I can summarize, I believe

that

Page 11

the present value

costs

for disinfection are

almost a billion dollars and dissolved oxygen

about 650 million. Am I correct in talking

about --

MS. WILLIAMS:

What

page

are

you on?

MR. ANDES:

Page 2 of

Mr. Mastracchio’s detailed report, the

economic assessment.

So we’re talking about

almost $2 billion. Are

you

aware that

the

total amount for wastewater provided in

the

stimulus package for the whole country is

$4 billion?

MS. WILLIAMS: Are

you

going

to offer

evidence?

MR. ANDES:

I’d

glad

provide

copy

of that bill for the record.

MR. MASTRACCHIO:

I’m aware that the

combined water and sewer is six billion,

but

I hadn’t heard of four billion.

MR. ANDES: It’s

two billion for

drinking water.

MR. MASTRACCHIO:

I think you’re

right.

MR. ANDES: Four

billion

for

the whole

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MR. MASTPACCHIO:

That I don’t know.

I haven’t looked

at that. Other projects

that are --

MS. WILLIAMS:

In the master plans for

the various facilities we’re talking

about

here.

MR.

MASTRACCHIO:

I don’t know the

time lines for those.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Would

you -- hang on.

MR. ANDES:

I assume that

the Agency

would

have detailed knowledge of how much

stimulus money the whole

state is getting

from federal government which might

put this

into perspective.

MS. WILLIAMS:

I don’t

have any other

questions for this witness.

HEARING

OFFICER TIPSORD:

Miss Dexter?

MS. DEXTER:

Jessica Dexter for the

Environmental Law Policy Center. I will

start with my

first prefiled question. Do

you

know whether the

Chicago Area Waterway

System currently meets the existing

dissolved

oxygen standards?

MR. MASTRACCHIO:

No.

I don’t know.

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Page 19

extent

which all

the

costs

combined, we

can

see

the text

implementation in Figure

5-2. In 2016 that limit, that amount

over,

going over the tax

cap,

would mean how many

dollars?

MR.

MASTRACCHIO:

That’s

about

$40 million in that

year.

MR. ANDES:

$40

million over

the tax

cap which would then require referendum

act

by the general assembly,

cetera?

MR. MASTRACCHIO:

That’s correct.

MR. ANDES: And then in Figure

5-3,

this is debt service compared

the

debt

service limitation. In 2014 and then

after

that we

above the limitation. In 2016

what does that number amount

first in

terms of

debt

service?

MR. MASTRACCHIO:

That is

about a --

It’s about $100 million in

debt

service which

is over the

debt service extension

limitation.

MR. ANDES: And what

does

that

equate

in terms of

capital expenditures?

MR. MASTRACCHIO:

If I were

to convert

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cost

for

nutrient removal.

And

here, as I

understand it

based

on, again,

that table

you

had with

total

costs,

total costs

for

DV,

disinfection,

and for DO

were about

1.6

billion. Am

I right?

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MASTRACCHIO:

Yes.

MR.

ANDES:

Okay.

And

Mr. Kunetz’s

testimony,

I recall, said

that

potential

cost

for

nutrients

removal could

2.8

billion

or above.

And I believe

you

were

there

for that

testimony?

MR.

MASTRACCHIO:

Yes.

MR.

ANDES:

you

were

to add

cost

of nutrient

removal

the

costs

already

included

in this

table, what

would

the

impact?

MR.

MASTPACCHIO:

Well, if

I were

add

$2.8

billion in the

same general

time

frame,

the overages

would be

significantly

than

the

overage above

the

limitations

shown

chart here.

it would

have

significant

impact.

MR.

ANDES:

Okay.

Thank

you.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Anything

Page 22

further?

MS. WILLIAMS:

just

have -- can

ask one last

one?

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

You

can ask

many

as you

like.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Mr. Mastracchio,

last

time

you

were here, there

was

some testimony

regarding

the ability

of the District

increase

user fees.

you

recall

being

asked

some questions

about

that?

MR. MASTRACCHIO:

Yes.

MS. WILLIAMS:

And

you

recall offering

provide additional

information?

MR.

MASTRACCHIO:

Yes.

MS. WILLIAMS:

you

know

if that

information

has

been provided?

MR. ANDES:

about to.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Well,

ahead.

would

hate for

to you

have

walk

home

with

any of your

exhibits.

MR. ANDES:

Thank

you.

The

information

that

re unfolding

here

all

relates

the

applicable

statutory

and

regulatory

requirements

that apply

under the

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Page 26

maintenance for publically—owned

treatment

works. This is an EPA document.

HEARING OFFICER TIPSORD:

If there’s

no objection,

we will

mark

Appendix

B to

Subpart E

Subpart

Federal Guidelines

Exhibit 228.

Seeing none, it’s Exhibit 228.

MS. WILLIAMS:

I don’t

have

objection.

just

want

clarify. It looks

-- I

just

want

clarify the citation,

Fred. Is this

reg?

MR. ANDES:

Which

document?

MS. WILLIAMS:

It looks lake

regulation,

just

wanted to

clarify.

MR.

ANDES:

It’s an appendix

CFR

Part

35.

MS. WILLIAMS:

appendix B?

MR.

ANDES:

Yes.

And then we have one more

document. This is an excerpt

from the EPA

document

entitled user charge guidance manual

for publically-owned treatment works, June

1984. And we’re providing this

one

page

entitled user

charge regulatory requirements.

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Hard

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report is

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But--

MS. WILLIAMS:

the District

will

proposing

when

additional

testimony

should

come in?

MR. ANDES:

Well

follow suggestion

that

point in

terms of

the time.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Question 11:

What

are

the District’s

plans

for removing

or capping

sediment

in the

south fork

of the south

branch

Chicago

River?

DR.

GRANATO:

The District

currently

has no

plans

to cap

remove sediment

the

south branch

of the

south fork

-- excuse

me -- the

south

fork

of the

south branch

the Chicago

River.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Just

let me

have

second.

That

wasn’t

the

answer I was

expecting.

MR. ANDES:

I think, if I

can help

that. I

believe

there was a study

being

conducted

currently

the Corps of

Engineers

with

limited

capping

project

in the turning

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MS. WILLIAMS:

And what

about

because

you

were talking

about

the

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basin

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north

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DR.

GRANATO:

No.

This

the

-- at

the

mouth

Bubbly

Creek

there’s

turning

branch.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

I’m

sorry.

Right.

Then

there another

product

the

collateral

channel

that

we may

have

discussed?

DR.

GRANATO:

That’s

a separate

project.

does

involve

capping

in the

sense

of constructing a

wetlands

the north

end

of the

channel.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

And

you’re

not aware

any

other

projects

that

you

are

discussing

with

the

Agency

for sediment

capping?

DR.

GRANATO:

With

the IEPA?

MS.

WILLIAMS:

the

south fork,

yes.

DR.

GRANATO:

No,

I’m not.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

Okay.

Question

13:

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8, Paragraph

1 of

your aquatic

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testimony,

it’s

hard

offer a

definitive

answer.

you

recall

that?

MR. ANDES:

I think

the only

discussion

was

Dr. Zenz’ testimony.

MS.

DEXTER:

All right.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

Dr. Granato,

are

you

familiar

with

the

study

the District

Bubbly

Creek

in 2003,

2003 Bubbly

Creek

Water

Quality Improvement

Demonstration

Project?

DR.

GRANATO:

I have

some

familiarity

with

it.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

you

---

I just want

know

if you

could

just

very

generally

summarize

for

the

record

the conclusions

that

study

with

regard

dissolved

oxygen

levels.

MR. ANDES:

Could

see

the

report?

MS.

WILLIAMS:

Yeah.

don’t know

it’s

in the record.

you?

MR. ANDES:

I don’t recall.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

It’s No.

04A.

couldn’t

find

where it

was

an exhibit,

but

that --

MS.

WASIK:

I think it

was in Sam

Page

Dennison’s

testimony,

but

I’d

have

double

check.

MR.

ANDES:

that

report

that

Dr.

Dennison

was

involved

which

case

we’d

want

him

answer

questions

about

it?

MS.

WILLIAMS:

recollection

was

this

was

deferred

that

didn’t

answer,

but

I’m

trying

tie

loose

ends

with

Mr.

Granato

knows.

he’s

not

familiar

with

the

study

did

you

want

Dr.

Dennison

here?

wants

summarize

the

study,

don’t

care.

MR.

DENNISON:

I’d

have

read

it.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Have

established

this

report

it’s

not

the

record?

it’s

not

the

record,

then

probably

need

get

the

record.

we’re

going

summarize

MS.

WILLIAMS:

The

District

thinks

it’s

the

record,

and

not

dispute

that,

but

can’t

point

out

for

you.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

And

where

think

the

record?

I’m

not

finding

the

exhibit

list.

Page

attachment

somebody’s

testimony?

MR.

DENNISON:

Probably

testimony.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

attachment

Mr.

Dennison’s

Dr.

Dennison’s

testimony.

Okay.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

just

have

one

copy.

can

enter

you

want,

Marie.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

That’s

all

right.

it’s

the

record,

that’s

fine.

don’t

want

summarizing

information.

MR.

ANDES:

it’s

not

the

record,

don’t

have

any

objection

being

the

record.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

either.

just

didn’t

bring

copies.

MR.

ANDES:

who

can

best

answer

the

questions,

guess

depends

what

the

question

is.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

just

want

make

sure

that

the

summary

the

conclusions

that

study

presented

the

testimony,

so.

DR.

GRANATO:

Yeah.

think

for

not

familiar

enough

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author,

he might

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able

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think

was

addressed

his

testimony.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

ask

him

summarize

it,

can

you

that,

Dr.

Dennison?

MR.

ANDES:

can

read

the

summary

section

of the

report,

but I’m

not

sure

that

adds

anything.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

you’re

saying

you

think

it was

attached to

his

testimony but

that

MR.

DENNISON:

can’t

remember

was

attachment

reference.

MS. WILLIAMS:

But either

way

doesn’t

seem

reasonable to

ask

him

to be

able

summarize

what

the

study

found?

MR. ANDES:

Well,

don’t

remember

what

purpose

used

for

when

it was

either

referenced

attached.

I recall

there

being

some

questions, but

terms

summarizing

it,

there’s

summary

section

the

document, so

think

that

can

summarize

better

than

MS.

WILLIAMS:

Why

was

the

study

done,

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language.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

Thank

you.

MR. ANDES:

believe

was

referenced

his

testimony

but

not

attached,

so.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Does

that

okay.

you

think

was

referenced

but

not

attached,

you

want

submit

no?

MR. ANDES:

you

want

submit

it?

didn’t

see

any

reason

submit

it.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

Well,

think

Marie

felt

had

not

been

part

the

record

should

submit

it.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Well,

considering

you’re

asking

several

questions

about

it,

think

need

put

the

record.

MS. WILLIAMS:

You

want

put

the

record?

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

Since

you

asked

the

question

about

it,

yeah.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

Okay.

I mean

after

the

Page

hearing

you

want

can

just

leave

our

one

copy?

That’s

not

enough

copies

for

you

guys,

right?

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

can

get

with

one

copy,

but

you

would

rather

wait

and

submit

after

hearing.

you

want

take

back

with

you,

that’s

fine.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

Madam

Hearing

Officer,

I’m

handing

you

document

entitled

2003

Bubbly

Creek

Water

Quality

Improvement

Demonstration

Project

Report

0408.

I’d

have

admitted

into

evidence.

HEARING

OFFICER

TIPSORD:

there’s

objection,

will

mark

this

Exhibit

232.

Seeing

none,

it’s

Exhibit

232.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

And

just

clarify,

Mr.

Granato,

are

you

the

author

Exhibit

231,

Response

Questions

December

hearing

regarding

dredging,

believe?

this

your

wasn’t

sure

because

was

entered

with

your

testimony.

Are

you

the

author

this

document?

DR.

GRANATO:

It’s

team-authored

Page

document.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

Who was

the

team?

DR.

GRANATO:

Several

staff

members

division

and myself.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

And

you

ultimately

were

the approver

their

work

do you

want

name

the

other

team members

DR. GRANATO:

Yeah.

I guess

you

could

say

I’m

the

ultimate

approver.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

I think

may

Mr.

Andes

said

we’ve

already

addressed

this

with

Mr.

Lanyon’s

testimony,

and

I’m

not

certain

if he’s

correct

about

that

or not.

But

did suggest

that

we could

just

ask

you

specify

when

the

reservoirs

will

completed

and

part

the

TARP

project.

DR. GRANATO:

Well,

the

current

estimate

2024

for

complete

completion

completed

construction

the entire

reservoir

portion

the

plant.

MS.

WILLIAMS:

Okay.

don’t

think

have

anything

else.

MS. DEXTER:

have

few

follow-ups

based

on our

questions

this

morning

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Page

STATE

ILLINOIS

sS.

COUNTY

COOK

)

LAURA

MUKAHIRN,

being

Certified

Shorthand

Reporter doing

business

the

City

Chicago,

Illinois,

County of Cook,

certify

that

reported

shorthand

the

proceedings

had

the

foregoing

hearing

the

above-entitled

cause.

And

certify that

the

foregoing

true

and

correct

transcript

of all

shorthand

notes so

taken

aforesaid

and

contains

all

the

proceedings

had

the

said

meeting

the

above-entitled

cause.

LAURA

MUKAHIRN,

CSR

NO.

084-003592

Page

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between

18:2

57:17

86:11

67:12

84:4

52:10

61:21

33:11

34:1

37:24

42:13

bring

85:16