1
ILLINOIS POLLUTION CONTROL BOARD
IN THE MATTER OF:
)
WATER QUALITY STANDARDS AND
) R08-09
EFFLUENT LIMITATIONS FOR THE ) (Rulemaking-
CHICAGO AREA WATERWAY SYSTEM ) Water
AND THE LOWER DES PLAINES
)
RIVER: PROPOSED AMENDMENTS
)
TO 35 Ill. Adm. Code Parts 301, )
302, 303 and 304
)
REPORT OF THE PROCEEDINGS held in the
above entitled cause before Hearing Officer Marie
Tipsord, called by the Illinois Pollution Control
Board, taken by Steven Brickey, CSR, for the State
of Illinois, 100 West Randolph, Chicago, Illinois,
on the 8th day of September, 2008, commencing at
the hour of 1:00 p.m.
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A P P E A R A N C E S
MS. MARIE TIPSORD, Hearing Officer
MS. ALISA LIU, Environmental Scientist
MR. ANAND RAO, Senior Environmental Scientist
MR. TANNER GIRARD, Acting Chairman
MR. JOHNSON
MR. NICHOLAS MELAS
ILLINOIS ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
1021 North Grand Avenue East
P.O. Box 19276
Springfield, Illinois 62794-9276
(217) 782-5544
BY: MS. DEBORAH WILLIAMS
MS. STEPHANIE DIERS
MR. ROBERT SULSKI
MR. SCOTT TWAIT
MR. HOWARD ESSIG
BARNES & THORNBURG
BY: MR. FREDRIC P. ANDES
One North Wacker Drive
Suite 4400
Chicago, Illinois 60606
(312) 357-1313
Appearing on behalf of the Metropolitan
Water Reclamation District
MR. RICHARD LANYON
MR. WILLIAM STUBA
MR. SAMUEL DENNISON
NATIONAL RESOURCES DEFENSE COUNCIL
MS. ANN ALEXANDER
THE CHICAGO LEGAL CLINIC
BY: MR. KEITH HARLEY
2938 East 91st Street
Chicago, Illinois 606017
(773) 731-1762
LA. REPORTING, INC. (312) 419-9292
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ENVIRONMENTAL LAW AND POLICY CENTER
33 East Wacker Drive
Suite 1300
Chicago, Illinois 60601
(312) 795-3707
BY: MR. ALBERT ETTINGER
MS. JESSICA DEXTER
OPENLANDS
BY: MS. STACY MEYERS-GLEN
24 East Washington Street
Suite 1650
Chicago, Illinois 60602
(312) 863-6265
FRIENDS OF THE CHICAGO RIVER
BY: MS. MARGARET FRISBIE
28 East Jackson Boulevard
Suite 1800
Chicago, Illinois 60604
(312) 939-0490
OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL - STATE OF ILLINOIS
BY: MS. SUSAN HEDMAN
69 West Washington Street
Suite 1800
Chicago, Illinois 60602
(312) 814-4947
REPORTED BY:
Steven J. Brickey, CSR
CSR License No. 084-004675
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MS. TIPSORD: Okay. I think we left
off with Openlands question 16.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Number 16, you
list frequent barge and large power boat traffic
along the CAWS as a safety issue on page five of
your testimony. You partially answered this, I
believe, earlier. But do you know of commercial
barge traffic on the North Branch of the Chicago
River to the north of Goose Island?
MR. LANYON: Yes.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Can you please
describe how heavy that barge traffic is in that
area?
MR. LANYON: How heavy, I don't
know. I have observed barges docked at -- from
the Cortland Street Bridge upstream and downstream
of the bridge.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And you said
there's no commercial barge traffic in the North
Channel as to your knowledge now, right?
MR. LANYON: North Shore Channel?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: North Shore
Channel, correct.
MR. LANYON: That's correct.
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MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And how far up
does the commercial barge traffic go on the
Chicago River?
MR. LANYON: Based on his
observations?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Pardon?
MR. LANYON: You're asking based on
his --
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: As to his
knowledge.
MR. LANYON: Yes, I believe it's
about as far north as Webster Avenue.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: The --
MR. LANYON: The core of engineers
shows on their navigation charts the head of
navigation on the North Branch is Addison Street.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And then north of
that there's very light traffic, if at all?
There's little or no barge traffic, correct?
MR. LANYON: Little or no barge
traffic.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And do the Chicago
Park District and Friends of the Chicago River
offer numerous canoe trips to the public on the
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North Shore Channel, North Branch of the Chicago
River, main stem Chicago River, south branch down
Bubbly Creek and along the Chicago Sanitary and
Ship Canal?
MR. LANYON: They offer such
adventures. How numerous, I don't know.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: But you're aware
that they do?
MR. LANYON: Yes.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And are you aware
of any injuries that paddlers have sustained
during these trips that results from either barges
or commercial tour boats?
MR. LANYON: I have no personal
knowledge of injuries.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And are you aware
that for the past 11 years Friends of the Chicago
River have taken out as least 2,640 people
canoeing on the North Shore Channel, North Branch
Chicago River, main stem, all the waterways I've
previously discussed?
MR. ANDES: Evidence --
MS. TIPSORD: Okay. Hold on.
Mr. Andes, I note that it's evidence. I'm
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assuming you plan to present testimony to these
facts?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: That is correct.
MS. TIPSORD: And I believe that we
allowed the district and others to ask facts of
the agencies and it is the understanding that they
would also be presenting these facts. So I note
your objection and please continue to note them on
the record, but we'll allow them to present that
evidence in their testimony. And are you aware of
that, of what she just said?
MR. LANYON: I have no idea as to
the number.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: But you again,
you're --
MR. LANYON: There are boats out on
the river, yes.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: I'm sorry. I'm
trying to narrow the scope of my question.
MS. TIPSORD: That's okay.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: In addition, did
you know that the Chicago Park District hired
Friends of the Chicago River from 2004 to 2007 to
take people canoeing on the Chicago River as a
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part of its summer programs resulting in 34 trips
with a thousand attendees, none of whom were
injured from barges or commercial traffic?
MR. ANDES: Same objection noted.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Are you aware of
this?
MR. LANYON: No.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Now, you state on
question 17, I'm jumping to the next question.
You state that high flows can impair aquatic life
uses when habit is destroyed and aquatic organisms
are swept downstream. What do you consider a high
flow event?
MR. LANYON: The flow is resulting
from a storm event.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And what kind of a
flow resulting from a storm event would suffice to
be a high flow event? Is it any storm or is it --
MR. LANYON: That's a
generalization.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Okay. And how
often do these take place?
MR. LANYON: About a dozen times a
year.
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MS. TIPSORD: Excuse me. Before you
go on. Just to try and quantify this because I'm
a little confused also by the use of high flow,
are you talking about, like, a 25-year event, are
you talking about a normal rain storm, are you
talking about what we had last Thursday?
MR. LANYON: Generally, I'd say a
rain storm of an inch or more.
MS. TIPSORD: Thank you. Sorry.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Thank you. What
time of year or season do these events normally
occur?
MR. LANYON: They can occur any time
during the year.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Are they more
often in one season than another?
MR. LANYON: No, not necessarily.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And what is
generally the duration of these high flow events?
MR. LANYON: It varies. I'd say
from 12 to 36 hours.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: I'm going to
reserve 17 E through I. I'm going to request that
I defer these questions. The ILDCB has the same
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questions.
MS. TIPSORD: So you're not
deferring them, you're actually letting the ILDCB
ask the question?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Unless they don't
ask them, in which case I would request to be able
to follow up with these questions. 17J, are there
refugium available for fish and wildlife during
these flow events? And this is of course along
the CAWS.
MR. LANYON: I don't know.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And how many
decades has the CAWS periodically experienced high
flows?
MR. LANYON: Well, ten decades or
more.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And is there any
evidence of species such as macroinvertebrate
fish, birds, riparian mammals like river otters,
beavers, muskrats, returning to these areas after
high flow incidents?
MR. LANYON: Well, certain of the
larger organisms like beavers and river otters can
move under their own power and return, but other
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types of organisms that are a part of the benthols
don't have that ability and they just relocate to
some point downstream.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Well, after
decades of these flood events taking place, there
are still macroinvertebrate in the water, correct,
at the locations where there are these high flow
events, correct? They still live.
MR. LANYON: They're still there
somewhere.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And there are
still fish in these waterways where these high
flow events have taken place for decades, correct?
MR. LANYON: Yes, fish, like the
other larger forms you mentioned can move under
their own power.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: So they can come
back?
MR. LANYON: They can come back.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And same thing
with mammals like the river otters that we've seen
as far as downtown Chicago, we see those return
after flood events as well, correct?
MR. LANYON: Personally, I've never
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seen a river otter, but animals of that type could
return, yes.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Do you know of
marine mammals such as river otters existing in
the CAWS, have you heard of this as being with the
district?
MR. LANYON: I don't have in depth
knowledge of all of the organisms that are found
in the CAWS.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: But do you know of
any, such as river otters, that do?
MR. LANYON: Pardon?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: How about river
otters, have you heard of them being out on the
CAWS?
MR. LANYON: No. Other than in your
questions, no.
MR. ANDES: I'd like to follow up.
With regard to these various species returning, in
your original statement you talk about when habit
is destroyed. If the habit is destroyed, is there
less of an ability for a community to return and
stay there in a healthy way?
MR. LANYON: Well, yes there
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wouldn't be the habit to return to.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: If there are
animals, wildlife, fish, macroinvertebrate that do
return, isn't that indicative of the fact that
there is something to return to? After these
storm events occur, that things do ultimately
reset and these animals and these fish come back?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: I don't have
detailed knowledge of that, but other witnesses
for the district will testify to that.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Thank you. Does
the tunnel and reservoir plan or tarp reduce the
number of high flow events out on the CAWS?
MR. LANYON: Yes.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And won't tarp
further reduce flow when the project is completed?
MR. LANYON: Yes.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: According to the
districts report, did fish species in the Chicago
and Calumet systems rise from approximately 10 to
70 in number over the last 30 years despite high
flow events? These are the districts figures.
MR. LANYON: Despite high flow
events?
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MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Mm-hmm.
MR. LANYON: Well, we've had already
high flow events.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And is the
number --
MR. LANYON: So that increase was
independent of high flow events.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: I have only a
couple of follow-up questions, if I may. Now, do
you believe that MWRD does not meet the
affordability test or do you believe that the MWRD
meets the affordability test under UAA factor six
which pertains to control that would result in
widespread economic and social impact?
MR. LANYON: I'm not familiar with
the affordability test.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: During the
district water quality standards study test, and I
will provide this, on October 10th, 2007, do you
recall stating "We have not conducted a formal
economic analysis according to EPA's guidance. We
have looked at this informally. We believe we
don't meet the criteria that the EPA has set out,
whether that criteria is objective or not," and
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that's on transcript page 41 on that date. Do you
recall saying that?
MR. LANYON: I may have. I don't
recall specifically, but --
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Would you like me
to --
MR. LANYON: No.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And you were
present also at the following district study
session on water quality standards on October
31st, 2007, right?
MR. LANYON: Yes, I was there.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And during that
study session, do you recall Linda Holst
testifying on behalf of the United States
Environmental Protection Agency?
MR. LANYON: I can't say that I do.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: You don't remember
her stating that there were statements about the
waterways, their channels and they're not natural
streams and that under federal regulations they're
navigable waters and they are waters of the US and
do still have to meet the requirements of the
Clean Water Act.
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MR. LANYON: Did I say that or did
she say that?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Do you remember
Linda Holst talking about this --
MR. LANYON: No, I don't.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: -- and making that
statement?
MR. LANYON: I don't, but we do have
to meet the requirements of the Clean Water Act.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: You do. So then
you don't disagree with the US EPA as far as what
I've just stated to you -- their characterization
of the federal law method?
MR. LANYON: Characterization of
what?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Of the federal law
method --
MR. ANDES: Are you asking him for a
legal characterization?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: No.
MR. ANDES: I'm going to object to
that.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: No, I'm asking to
his impression, his opinion.
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MR. ANDES: Of the law.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: As to whether or
not they have to meet the requirements. I guess
you've already stated that. I withdraw that
question. I'm done. Thank you.
MS. TIPSORD: Then let's continue
with the Environmental Law and Policy centers
questions to Mr. Lanyon.
MS. WILLIAMS: Can I ask one quick
follow up?
MS. TIPSORD: Sure. Absolutely.
MS. WILLIAMS: The hearing officer
asked you to be more specific about high flow
events and we were talking in terms of the size of
the rainstorm, can you define what you mean by
high flow events in terms of velocity because
that's what flow is, right? Velocity, a measure
of velocity, so can you explain what a high
velocity is as you use the term?
MR. LANYON: Well, flow and velocity
are two different measures.
MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
MR. LANYON: And the velocities will
vary in our system depending upon the flow rate
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and the area of water. I don't know what the
range of velocity is and I can't give you a
numerical range for velocity.
MS. WILLIAMS: Do you have any
evidence that when you have high flows, aquatic
organisms are swept downstream as you testified
to? What is the evidence for that statement?
MR. LANYON: I have no personal
knowledge of that. I think others may testify to
that.
MS. WILLIAMS: That's fine.
MS. TIPSORD: Are we ready for
Mr. Ettinger's questions.
MR. ETTINGER: I think we just
preempted my first couple of questions here, but
I'll ask them anyway to just -- whatever. It says
on page four of your testimony you state that the
Cal-Sag Canal high flow can impair aquatic life
uses when habit is destroyed and aquatic organisms
are swept downstream. Did I just hear you say you
have no personal knowledge regarding that
statement?
MR. LANYON: Of --
MR. ETTINGER: Do you believe that
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statement to be true?
MR. LANYON: I believe that's a
generalization as to specific organisms and I
don't have personal knowledge of that.
MR. ETTINGER: Do you know whether
the water reclamation district has ever studied
what habitat is destroyed on the Cal-Sag Canal by
such events?
MR. LANYON: I'm aware that we are
currently studying that and there have been times
in the past with our monitoring that we have data
on that phenomena.
MR. ETTINGER: What data would that
be?
MR. LANYON: On the organisms that
are in the waterways.
MR. ETTINGER: Not specifically with
regard to the habitat, what data would you have
about habitat destruction regarding -- caused by
these high flow events?
MR. LANYON: Well, I'm not sure if
we have any specific data that ties high flow
events to the habit destruction or movement.
MR. ETTINGER: Okay.
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MR. ANDES: I think we will have
other witnesses who can speak to that issue in
more detail.
MR. ETTINGER: Again, perhaps erring
on side of caution here I don't know where you're
just making sweeping generalizations based on
other people's witnesses and when you're
testifying from your own knowledge. So you'll
just have to tell me whenever that's the case.
MR. ANDES: That's fine.
MR. ETTINGER: Organic organisms are
swept downstream --
MR. ANDES: Aquatic.
MR. ETTINGER: Aquatic or did I say
aquatic?
MR. ANDES: You said organic.
MR. ETTINGER: I'm sorry. When
aquatic organisms are swept downstream, do we know
what organic organisms are swept downstream -- or
aquatic? I'm sorry.
MR. LANYON: I do not know what
aquatic organisms are swept downstream. Others
will testify to that.
MR. ETTINGER: And my question
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number four would be where are they swept, do you
know where they are swept to?
MR. LANYON: Somewhere downstream.
MR. ETTINGER: Somewhere downstream.
What riparian life lives on the Chicago area
waterways system to your knowledge?
MR. LANYON: I have no personal
knowledge of what riparian life is along the
waterway system.
MR. ETTINGER: Do you know if there
are beavers, otters, other critters like that that
live on the banks of the system?
MR. LANYON: I've heard of beavers
chewing down trees. Other than the testimony in
this proceeding, I haven't heard of river otters.
MR. ETTINGER: What birds live near
the Chicago Area Waterway System?
MR. LANYON: Well, we've seen the
egrets and the great blues. There's a host of
other birds. I'm not a trained bird watcher. I
couldn't identify one from another.
MR. ETTINGER: Has the Metropolitan
Water Reclamation District of Greater Chicago
every studied the effects of its operations on
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riparian mammals or birds?
MR. LANYON: I don't believe so.
MR. ETTINGER: I think we've been
over nine enough. Ten and eleven we've been over
enough. Twelve, has anyone to your knowledge
studied what the level of barge traffic would be
if some or all of the Midwest generation units at
Bits Crawford or Will County are shut down?
MR. ANDES: To your knowledge.
MR. LANYON: No.
MR. ETTINGER: Has the Water
Reclamation District ever studied that?
MR. LANYON: No.
MR. ETTINGER: Do you know of anyone
else who has studied that?
MR. LANYON: I don't know if anyone
else has studied that.
MR. ETTINGER: Has the Water
Reclamation District or anyone else to your
knowledge studied the value of the recreational
boating now on the Chicago Area Waterway System or
any segment of it?
MR. LANYON: The district has not
and I don't know if anyone else has.
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MR. ETTINGER: Okay. The
Metropolitan Water Reclamation District has
criticized some of the proposed classifications of
the Chicago Area Waterway System that has been
proposed by ILEPA, but is there another
classification system that the district would
propose that better characterizes the Chicago Area
Waterway System in terms of potential for
recreational uses or aquatic life uses?
MR. ANDES: That issue is definitely
addressed by the witnesses including some who have
provided specific recommendations.
MS. WILLIAMS: Can you say which
ones, please?
MR. ANDES: At least, Dr. Granado,
who is the last witness on aquatic and the last
witness on recreational and will summarize the
testimony before him.
MR. ETTINGER: Thank you. Has the
Metropolitan Water Reclamation District studied
out other heavily modified waterway systems such
as the Rouge River near Detroit, the Milwaukee
River or the Charles River in Boston?
MR. LANYON: The district has not
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studied this. Although, I believe some testimony
of those uses may be presented in this proceeding
by another witness for the district.
MR. ETTINGER: It says your
testimony points to major water quality
improvements in the Chicago Area Waterway Systems
over the past 30 years, would you generally
describe those improvements.
MR. LANYON: Well, as testified
earlier we've seen an increase in the number of
fish species and the population of fish. We've
seen a reduction of cyanide and other metals due
to enforcement of industrial discharges. We've
seen a reduction in the concentrations of ammonia
due to improved treatment at our plants and back
in the 80's we discontinued using the toxicant
sodium hypochlorite which was cause for a rebound
in the fish population in our system.
MR. ETTINGER: What was sodium
hypochlorite used for?
MR. LANYON: It was used for
disinfection.
MR. ETTINGER: And that was at what
plant?
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MR. ETTINGER: That was at the
Calumet north side and the Stickney treatment
plants.
MR. ETTINGER: Does any of the
equipment remain on site that was used to
disinfect at those plants prior to the 80's?
MR. LANYON: Well, the dosing
equipment I doubt if it remains. It was probably
all scrapped.
MR. ANDES: We are going to have
specific factual testimony on that. I believe
Mr. Zens -- I'm sorry. Jennifer? I believe
Mr. Zens is the one who will discuss some of that,
some of those issues.
MR. ETTINGER: I have read the
pre-file Zens testimony and I will be asking him
questions, but to your knowledge has the Water
Reclamation District ever considered using the
existing chlorine equipment at those sites and
then adding dechlorination equipment?
MR. LANYON: Adding dechlorination
equipment?
MR. ETTINGER: Well, in the 70's,
you were chlorinating and not dechlorinating, is
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that correct?
MR. LANYON: That's correct. It
wasn't required at that time.
MR. ETTINGER: I understand. You do
what's required. Would -- Now, obviously you
would be required because of the residual pouring
requirements of the board, is that correct?
MR. LANYON: Is what correct?
MR. ANDES: Would you have to --
MR. ETTINGER: If you were to
chlorinate now, you wouldn't be required to
dechlorinate?
MR. LANYON: Yes.
MR. ETTINGER: And that's what
you're doing at the Curie, Egan and Hanover Park
plants, you're chlorinating and dechlorinating?
MR. LANYON: I presume we would be
required to dechlorinate.
MR. ETTINGER: Have you considered
using the existing equipment or some or all of the
existing equipment at the Stickney, North Side or
Calumet plants for chlorination and adding
dechlorination equipment to them?
MR. LANYON: Well, no. It requires
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a little different technology approach. After you
apply the sodium hypochlorite or whatever
chlorinating agent you use, you have to allow for
a sufficient contact time for a kill before you
apply the sodium bisulfate. When we were
disinfecting back in the 70's and 80's, we were
dosing in the effluent conduits and part of the
kill time was in the waterways and only at the
Calumet plant did we install a separate chlorine
contact basin. That basin couldn't be used today
because it was grossly undersized. It was built
for a plant size that no longer exists at the
Calumet plant.
MR. ETTINGER: Thank you.
MS. TIPSORD: Anything further for
Mr. Lanyon? Thank you very much. Let's move onto
Mr. Stuba. And can we have him sworn in?
WHEREUPON:
WILLIAM STUBA
called as a witness herein, having been first duly
sworn, deposeth and saith as follows:
MS. TIPSORD: And do we have copy
for the record?
MR. ANDES: Yes, we do.
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MS TIPSORD: If there's no
objection, we'll enter Mr. Stuba -- am I
pronouncing that correct?
MR. STUBA: Yes.
MS. TIPSORD: His testimony and your
attachment as Exhibit Number 62. Seeing none, it
is Exhibit Number 62. And whenever you're ready.
MR. STUBA: Good afternoon. My name
is William J. Stuba. I'm currently employed by
the Metropolitan Water Reclamation District of
Greater Chicago known in the District as the
assistant chief engineer in the research and
development department, known as R&D. I have been
R&D's assistant chief engineer since 2006.
As assistant chief engineer I
supervise the industrial waste division known as
IWD of R&D which has a staff of 132. Prior to
becoming the assistant chief engineer in R&D, I
was the industrial waste enforcement supervisor
from 2000 to 2006. I've been employed by the
District since 1977.
I received a Bachelor of Science
in civil engineering degree from Bradley
University and I'm a licensed professional
LA. REPORTING, INC. (312) 419-9292
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engineer in the state of Illinois. My
responsibilities as the District's assistant chief
engineer in R&D include but are not limited to the
following: The control of commercial and
industrial waste discharges to the districts
sewage system and waterways through the
administration of the sewerage and waste control
ordinance. Recovery of certain District
operating, maintenance and replacement costs
through administration of the User Charge
Ordinance. Monitoring the water quality of the
Chicago Area Waterway System and the Illinois
waterways.
The Districts continuous
dissolved oxygen monitoring program on the Chicago
Area Waterway System was implemented in 1998.
Since that time, IWD staff conduct regularly
scheduled trips on the board's pollution control
boats to service the DO, dissolved oxygen,
monitoring equipment. The regularly scheduled
runs are as follows. Tuesdays from the Stickney
Water Reclamation plant upstream on the Chicago
Sanitary and Ship Canal, the South Branch, the
South Fork, the Chicago River, the North Branch
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and the North Shore Channel. Wednesday's from the
Stickney Water Reclamation Plant downstream on the
Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal to the Cal-Sag
junction, upstream on the Cal-Sag Channel and the
Little Calumet North to the Conrail Railroad
bridge downstream of the O'Brien Lock and Dam. In
the warm weather months, this run often occurs in
the reverse direction starting at the boatyard
near the I-94 bridge. Thursday's from the
Stickney Water Reclamation Plant downstream on the
Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal to Lemont.
In addition to the DO runs, the
IWD boat crew performs other work trips on the
waterways. During any trip on the Chicago area
waterways, the Chicago -- I'm sorry. The
District's patrol boat operators keep daily logs
noting any observations of floatable materials,
bridge and bank activity and any recreational
activity. In support of the Chicago Area Waterway
System Use Attainability Analysis, the
observations of specific recreation activities
were begun on June 24th, 2003. Observation of the
following recreational activities on or in the
water are recorded on daily log sheets: Swimming,
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driving, jumping, skiing, tubing, wading,
canoeing, sculling, kayaking, fishing and
recreational boating.
An annual summary of
observations of recreational activities on each
waterway for the years 2005 through 2007 is
attached. Observations were made on 39, 48 and 37
percent, respectfully, of the days in each year.
For boating type activities, the tally indicates
the number of watercraft observed, not the number
of individuals.
For fishing activity, the tally
generally indicates observations of fishing from
the bank rather than from a boat. There have been
very few observations of primary contact type
activities during the three-year period. In 2005,
three people were observed swimming in the Little
Calumet River on June 15th, 2005. There were six
jet skiers observed. Two on the Cal-Sag Channel
on September 7th, 2005, and four on the Chicago
River Main and South branch on September 8th,
2005.
One person was observed
swimming, diving or jumping in the Chicago
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Sanitary and Ship Canal above the junction on
September 12th, 2005, and two on September 21st,
2005. There were no observations of primary
contact type activities during 2006.
In 2007, there were nine
observations of skiing or tubing, six on May 21st
and one on May 23rd on Chicago Sanitary and Ship
Canal above the junction and two on the Cal-Sag
Channel on August 1st, 2007. The summary of
observations for the three years indicate that
canoeing, sculling, and kayaking were observed
primarily in the North Shore Channel and the
Chicago River North Branch.
In 2007, no canoeing, sculling
or kayaking was observed in Chicago Sanitary and
Ship Canal, the Cal-Sag Channel or the Little
Calumet River. A review of the three years of
observations indicates that there is generally a
lack of any trend towards changing any
recreational use of the Chicago Area Waterway
System. Respectfully submitted, William J. Stuba.
Thank you.
MS. TIPSORD: And, again, I don't
recall that the NRDC had any questions, correct?
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MR. JOHNSON: That's correct.
MS. TIPSORD: Then the ILEPA
please --
MS. DIERS: Good afternoon,
Mr. Stuba. My name is Stephanie Diers and I'll be
asking questions on behalf of the Illinois EPA.
The first question is on page two of your pre-file
testimony, you state that most of the scheduled
runs run Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday -- and
I'll rephrase the question a little bit. Were any
observations made on the weekends?
MR. STUBA: No.
MS. DIERS: And why not?
MR. STUBA: The boat crew does not
work or very seldom works on weekends.
MS. DIERS: And why are observations
not made on Mondays and Fridays.
MR. STUBA: Observations are made on
Mondays and Fridays.
MS. DIERS: I'm sorry. I guess the
ones are just on Tuesdays and Thursdays --
Tuesdays, Wednesday and Thursday, is that what
we're seeing on the Attachment 1 to your
testimony?
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MR. STUBA: The attachment includes
Monday through Friday.
MS. DIERS: Okay.
MS. TIPSORD: Excuse me then. If
the runs are only done Tuesday, Wednesday and
Thursday, how are the observations made on Monday
and Friday?
MR. STUBA: The scheduled dissolved
oxygen runs are on Tuesday, Wednesday, and
Thursdays.
MS. TIPSORD: Okay.
MR. STUBA: On Monday and Friday,
there are other tasks that the boat crew performs.
MS. TIPSORD: Thank you.
MS. DIERS: And can you give us the
timeframe that you're on this water, is it 8 to 4
or the working hours for that day?
MR. STUBA: It's generally the
working hours.
MS. DIERS: And is that 8 to 4, 9 to
5 or what would that be?
MR. STUBA: It varies. It could be
7 to 3, 7 to 5. It varies.
MS. DIERS: Okay. I'm going to skip
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down to question number five. On page four of
your pre-file testimony, you seem to conclude that
there is not a trend towards changing recreational
use of the CAWS. Can you please explain how you
came to such a conclusion?
MR. ANDES: Do you want to go up to
the chart?
MR. STUBA: Okay. The conclusion
was based on the annual summary of the
recreational observations. It's basically just a
summary by year, by each part of the waterway and
there is no trend.
MS. TIPSORD: You're pointing to a
document on the easel board. Can you tell me
where that is in your testimony, which attachment
that is?
MR. STUBA: That was not an
attachment to the testimony. It was in response
to the pre-file questions.
MS. TIPSORD: Can we get a copy of
that as an exhibit for the record?
MR. ANDES: Absolutely. It's a
summary of information that was contained in the
attachments to his testimony. It was reformatted.
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There are copies available over there.
MS. TIPSORD: Thank you. All right.
If there's no objection, we'll mark that as
Exhibit Number 63. Seeing none, it's Exhibit
Number 63.
MS. DIERS: Question six, it appears
that numbers for the recreational survey that you
mentioned in your pre-file testimony start in
2005, but your observations began in June of 2003,
can you please explain why you did not submit that
data from 2003 to 2004?
MR. STUBA: The data is a summary
from looking at each individual log sheet. In the
interest of time, we started in 2005. That's all.
MS. DIERS: Who prepared the summary
that was in your Attachment 1 to your pre-file
testimony? Did you prepare it?
MR. STUBA: Yes.
MS. DIERS: Is it possible to get a
copy of the log you're referencing?
MR. ANDES: Sure.
MS. DIERS: No further questions.
MS. TIPSORD: And then I believe
Openlands is next.
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MS. MEYERS-GLEN: For the record, my
name is Stacy Meyers-Glen. I can give you a card.
Mr. Stuba, on page two of your testimony, you
stated the District's administrative industrial
waste division staff conducts scheduled trips on
Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday to service
dissolved oxygen monitoring equipment. Do these
trips occur every week?
MR. STUBA: Yes.
MR. ANDES: And let me clarify one
thing which is the administrative part is
incorrect. It's just the industrial waste
division.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Thank you. So
every week, every Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday
of the year these trips occur?
MR. STUBA: Correct.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: What is the staffs
primary responsibility on these trips?
MR. STUBA: To service the destroyed
oxygen monitoring equipment.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And when they
aren't working in this capacity, staff is to note
any observations of floatable materials, bridge
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and bank activity and recreational activity?
MR. STUBA: They are to note any
activity any time they are on the waterways, yes.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: So it's all of
those things, though, it's not just recreational
use, correct?
MR. STUBA: Correct.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And are there
certain people on these trips that are designated
to focus specifically on and record such
activities?
MR. STUBA: The patrol boat
operators keep the logs. The observations are
ancillary to their normal function as a patrol
boat operator.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: So the patrol --
MR. ANDES: Can I follow up with
that? That's in terms of reporting. In terms of
people watching for these activities, is that the
obligation of all the staff?
MR. STUBA: No. They have their
normal routines that they are to do. If during
the course of the routine somebody sees something,
there's nothing to prevent him from saying "Look,
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there's somebody fishing."
MR. ANDES: And that could happen to
anybody on the boat?
MR. STUBA: Anybody on the boat.
MR. ANDES: Okay.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And what are their
instructions, how are they instructed to -- what
specifically are their instructions in recording
or making observations regarding recreational use
while they are conducting their other primary
responsibilities?
MR. STUBA: The instructions are to
note any recreation activity.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And how frequently
is recreational activity recorded?
MR. STUBA: Anytime it is observed.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: You already
answered the question regarding how often IWD
staff monitors on weekends, which they don't. How
often --
MS. FRISBIE: Can I ask a follow up?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Sure.
MS. FRISBIE: Do you recall the
weather on these days you've gone out?
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MR. STUBA: There may be notes
regarding the weather on the log sheet, yeah.
MS. FRISBIE: But regardless of
whether it's storming or a bright sunny day, it's
the days you go out on the boat you take this?
MR. STUBA: Correct.
MS. ANDES: I'd like to follow up
also just to clarify. On the weekends and
holidays, are those never done or is that seldom
done?
MR. STUBA: Very seldom, practically
never.
MR. ANDES: And when would that
happen?
MR. STUBA: When would it happen?
MR. ANDES: Yes.
MR. STUBA: A special sampling study
that needed to be done, something out of the
ordinary.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: How many times a
year do you anticipate or do you call being out on
the waterway and having the opportunity to -- or
actually recording events that occurred on
weekends or holidays?
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MR. ANDES: Are you talking about
him personally?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: How often has IWD
staff gone out and monitored activity on weekends,
what is the frequency?
MR. STUBA: That is not their
function to go out and monitor activity. If they
work and they see activity, they will record it.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: I'm just trying to
get a sense of whether this happens once a year,
once a month, once every three or four years that
somebody actually go out on the weekends.
MR. STUBA: I don't know that
information. I'd have to review the log sheets.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: I'd appreciate if
that could happen so we have a sense of how often
they're out on the weekends.
MR. ANDES: We'll be providing the
log sheets.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Thank you. And
then the same thing for holidays, how often do the
IWD staff monitor on holidays?
MR. STUBA: Monitor recreation
activities?
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MS. MEYERS-GLEN: That's correct.
MR. STUBA: Again, that's not their
sole function for being out on the waterways.
You're asking how many holidays have they worked.
I don't know. I would have to look at the log
sheets.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: If we could have
that information as well, we'd appreciate it.
MR. STUBA: Sure.
MS. TIPSORD: He's already indicated
they will be providing the log sheets.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Okay. I think H
is covered and so is I. Under the list of --
under question J, under the list of specific
recreational activities, does skiing include both
jet skiing and water skiing?
MR. STUBA: Yes.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And where do the
IWD staff observe jet skiing and tubing on the
CSSC and Chicago River Main and South Branch in
2005 and 2007?
MR. STUBA: The observation log does
not give specific locations. There were four
instances of jet skiing on the Chicago River, the
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Main and the South Branch recorded on September
8th, 2005. Six observations of skiing or jet
tubing on the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal
above the Cal-Sag junction were recorded on May
21st, 2007. One observation of skiing or tubing
on the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal above the
Cal-Sag junction was recorded on May 23rd, 2007.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: So you wouldn't
know from these logs, for instance, how close
people are to outfalls?
MR. STUBA: No.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Where were people
observed swimming in the Chicago Sanitary and Ship
Canal in 2005? Do you have that information?
MR. STUBA: Again, the observation
log doesn't list specific locations. An
observation of one person swimming in the Chicago
Sanitary Ship Canal above the Cal-Sag junction was
recorded on September 12th, 2005. Observation of
two people swimming in the Chicago Sanitary and
Ship Canal above the Cal-Sag junction were
recorded on September 21st, 2005.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: So those uses did
occur?
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MR. STUBA: They were observed, yes.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Did IWD staff
conduct -- This is M. Did IWD staff conduct a
scheduled trip on Wednesday, July 16th, 2008?
MR. STUBA: Yes.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And did they
produce a daily log of that activity?
MR. STUBA: Yes.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: If it would be
possible we would appreciate a copy. Thank you
very much. You read my mind. In that particular
log, what were the times and locations of any
motorized recreational boats the day of the event?
MR. STUBA: The log does not give
specific times other than the waterway names. For
July 16th, 2008, two observations of recreational
boating on the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal
below the junction. Five observations of
recreational boating on the Cal-Sag and two
observations on the Little Calumet River were
recorded.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And there were no
times with those observations?
MR. STUBA: No.
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MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Did they record
any one fishing on that date?
MR. STUBA: No.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Did staff further
record any one jet skiing on that date?
MR. STUBA: No.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: On page three of
your testimony --
MS. TIPSORD: Before you go on, you
asked him to provide a copy and he showed you a
copy, but we haven't had that copy provided yet.
So why don't we mark that as an exhibit.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Thank you very
much.
MS. TIPSORD: We probably need to
mark this as an exhibit and I'll get some copies
made. Let me mark it as an exhibit. I'll let you
take a look at it in case you have any follow up
and then we'll get copies at the break. Mark this
as Exhibit 64. I realize that all of you haven't
had a chance to look at it, but we'll mark it and
if there's any objections after the break and
you've seen it, we'll deal with it then.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Thank you very
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much.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: I just have one.
MS. TIPSORD: Okay.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: The only
recreational use that is recorded on the trip log
dated 7/16/08 is recreational boating, is that
correct?
MR. STUBA: Correct.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And there's no
other use that was recorded or observed on that
date?
MR. STUBA: No.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And this is your
typical dissolved oxygen trip?
MR. STUBA: This is the typical
observation log regardless of the reason that
they're out on the waterway.
MR. ANDES: Can I ask what else --
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And is that the
only one from July 16th?
MR. STUBA: The only one from
July -- Yes.
MR. ANDES: Can I ask what else is
supposed to be going on in the water body that is
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the reason for asking questions about that
particular date?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: At this point, no.
MR. ANDES: No, I can't ask?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: We're going to
testify further as to observations and whatnot and
we'll provide that to you.
MR. ANDES: Because I don't remember
that in any of the testimony of any of your
witnesses. Was there testimony of one of your
witnesses as to a particular activity on that
date?
MS. TIPSORD: In your pre-file
testimony.
MR. ANDES: I don't remember it, but
point me to it if it's there.
MS. WILLIAMS: I don't think that
their testifying to -- I don't understand. Are
you trying to ask --
MS. TIPSORD: They've already filed
their testimony.
MR. ANDES: So why are they asking
about that date? I'm curious. I can't say I'm
not going to introduce testimony that hasn't been
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produced yet.
MS. TIPSORD: Well --
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: We can certainly
provide explanation during our testimony.
MS. TIPSORD: And I would just note
that if they don't show the relevance to it, then
they've never shown relevance to it.
MR. ANDES: Okay.
MR. TIPSORD: Otherwise, we will
observe it as an example of your trip logs.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: We also, if I may
note, did not have access to this daily log when
creating our pre-file testimony to know whether or
not it would be relevant and we can certainly
respond now now that we know we have relevant
information.
MS. TIPSORD: You can respond during
your testimony. I think his question was just
that you centered in on this date and you
responded we will certainly be testifying to that
and there's no testimony yet in the record to
that.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: We will clarify
the later date.
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MR. TIPSORD: Thank you.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Question number
two on page three of your testimony you state that
a review of the three years of observations
indicates that there is generally a lack of any
trend towards changing recreational use on the
cause. A, in Attachment 3, only 44 instances of
canoeing, kayaking or sculling is recorded on the
North Branch of the Chicago River and seven
instances along the Chicago River Main and South
Branch in September 2007. Are you aware that 511
people participated in the Flatwater Classic alone
on September 16th, 2007?
MR. ANDES: I'll just note. I'll be
raising the same exact objection to each of these
questions that I raised in the earlier questions.
MS. TIPSORD: Right. That evidence
is not yet in the record.
MR. ANDES: Correct. Now you can
answer.
MS. TIPSORD: That's fine. Yes, you
can answer the question.
MR. STUBA: I am aware of the
Flatwater Classic. I am not aware of how many
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people participated nor the date that it was last
year.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Were those people
accounted for in the District's chart?
MR. STUBA: There's no observation
log for September 16th, 2007.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: In your record
from November 2007, list no instances of canoeing,
sculling or kayaking on either the Cal-Sag Channel
or the Little Calumet River, is that correct?
MR. STUBA: Yes.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And is it safe to
say that your figures do not include over 300
female rowers from five major universities that
compete in the premier Division 1 rowing
competition in the Cal-Sag Channel on November 4,
2007?
MR. STUBA: There is no observation
log from November 4th, 2007.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Do the IWD figures
include any sculling races during that year?
MR. STUBA: I don't know.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Do the IWD charts
reflect routine practices by high school and
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college sculling teams from New Trier, North Park
University, Loyola Academy and Northwestern
University in the North Channel and North Branch
of the Chicago River between March and June and
again between September through November of each
year?
MR. STUBA: I don't know.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Are you aware that
between 2004 an 2007 Friends of the Chicago River
led 34 Chicago Park District canoe trips with
nearly 1,000 attendees and summer programs?
MR. STUBA: I am not aware of the
number of trips or the attendees.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Did you or IWD
staff cross reference their figures with any canoe
or kayak rental locations along the CAWS?
MR. STUBA: No.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: According to
Attachment 3, IWD staff recorded a total of 168
instances of canoeing, sculling and kayaking at
all locations in the CAWS in 2007. Are you aware
that according to Chicago River Canoe and Kayak
they sent out 55,000 paddling trips on the Chicago
River since 2001?
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MR. STUBA: Am I aware of that? No.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: So information
from that source was not accounted for when you
made your conclusion that recreational use was not
increasing on the CAWS, is that correct?
MR. STUBA: My conclusion was based
on the observation logs.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Did you know that
the canoe and kayak rentals on the CAWS has
increased annually over the last five years?
MR. STUBA: No, I didn't know that.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Then, in
particular, Chicago River Canoe and Kayak has
grown approximately 20 to 30 percent each year
since it's inception in 2001.
MR. STUBA: Are you asking if I knew
that?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Yes.
MR. STUBA: No, I did not.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Lastly, did you
know that Kayak Chicago provided access to
approximately 600 people per week between June and
August 21st, 2008, which rose from 300 to 400
people per week during the same time frame last
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year?
MR. ANDES: Can't this wait for
actual evidence?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: These are things
that if he's going to be testifying as to whether
or not he based -- what he based his knowledge and
information on and is concluding whether or not
recreational use is increasing on the waterways it
is important to understand what the limitations
were as to those observations and conclusions
because there are a lot of things going on. It is
important to note that those things were not taken
into account in making that conclusion.
MR. ANDES: He already testified
that the only thing taken into account were the
observations on the boat.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Well --
MS. TIPSORD: He can answer the
question, but I am going to ask that -- These are
getting -- You're putting a lot of facts in your
questions and I know that we gave some leeway to
everyone when we questioned the agency, but you do
understand that this is not evidence as far as the
board is concerned.
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MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Yes.
MR. TIPSORD: This is merely stating
that -- what he already stated. That he based his
decisions on the log, not any other extraneous
information.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: That's correct.
That was actually my last question.
MS. TIPSORD: Go ahead and answer
the question.
MR. STUBA: Would you repeat the
question?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Sure. Did you
know that Kayak Chicago provides access to
approximately 600 people per week between -- or
provided June and August -- August 21st of 2008
which rose from 300 to 400 people per week during
the same time frame last year?
MR. STUBA: No, I was not aware of
that.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Thank you. I
think I is the last question. Are you familiar
with the findings in the Geosyntec Microbial Risk
Assessment Report for the CAWS that it recently
completed for the District in April 2008?
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MR. STUBA: No.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: No further
questions.
MS. TIPSORD: I do have one
question, Mr. Stuba. As far as the trip, the DO
trip that we've been talking about, what hours and
how long are they out? I mean is it an hour trip,
is it an all day thing?
MR. STUBA: The boat crew works an
eight hour day.
MS. TIPSORD: And they're out on the
boat the entire eight hours?
MR. STUBA: Pretty much all eight
hours, yes.
MS. TIPSORD: Mr. Harley.
MR. HARLEY: All of the people who
are on the boats have other responsibilities
during the time that they're also observing uses
of the waterways, is that correct?
MR. STUBA: Correct.
MR. HARLEY: Has there ever been an
attempt by the Water Reclamation District to do a
quality assurance, quality control evaluation to
determine whether or not their observations are,
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in fact, accurate?
MR. STUBA: You mean whether they
actually saw what they recorded it as?
MR. HARLEY: Whether it's a full and
complete record of what was going on while they
were on the boat.
MR. STUBA: Other than the
observation logs, no.
MR. HARLEY: So you've never sent,
for example, an additional boat with the sole
responsibility to perform just an observation log
of recreational activities?
MR. STUBA: Not to my knowledge, no.
MR. HARLEY: Have you ever attempted
to correspond observed uses with logs of uses of
boat launches, for example, at Worth or Alsip?
MR. STUBA: No.
MR. HARLEY: Thank you.
MS. TIPSORD: Ms. Williams.
MS. WILLIAMS: Mr. Stuba, I just
want to ask you one question that was deferred to
you by your counsel from my questions for
Mr. Lanyon. In your opinion, is the recreational
use potential of the Chicago Sanitary and Ship
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Canal different from the South Branch Chicago
River in its South Port, the Cal-Sag Channel or
other man-made or heavily altered regions?
MR. STUBA: I'm not sure I
understand what the question is.
MR. ANDES: I don't remember
deferring that to him.
MS. WILLIAMS: You suggested that it
was either Mr. Stuba or Mr. Dennison.
MR. ANDES: Let's go to Mr. Dennison
on that one.
MS. WILLIAMS: I won't forget.
Don't worry.
MR. ANDES: He's up next.
MS. TIPSORD: Is there anything
else?
MR. ANDES: I had some follow up.
MR. ETTINGER: You're taking
dissolved oxygen, doing dissolved oxygen checking
between 8 and -- when was that in the afternoon?
MR. STUBA: Their work hours are
from 7 to 3:30. They're union boat operators.
MR. ETTINGER: Do you ever take any
DO readings in the early morning like 4 a.m.?
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MR. STUBA: I don't know, but I
would say probably. I don't know.
MR. ETTINGER: We heard earlier
testimony about putting up signs at the direction
of the IEPA by the Water Reclamation District. Do
you know when those signs were put up?
MR. STUBA: No, I don't.
MS. TIPSORD: Ms. Dexter.
MS. DEXTER: How many boats do you
have going out on each day?
MR. STUBA: The industrial waste
division has two.
MS. DEXTER: Two boats. And how
many miles does that area cover of river miles?
MR. STUBA: I don't know.
MS. DEXTER: Is it the whole CAWS
system?
MR. STUBA: It could be the whole
thing, right.
MS. DEXTER: And would you
characterize this as a study design to discover
all the recreation that is happening on the CAWS?
MR. STUBA: Which study?
MS. DEXTER: Your logging in these
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sheets. Is this a study -- by taking this sort of
log sheets and recreation you see, would you call
that a study that's designed to assess all of the
recreation that is happening on the CAWS?
MR. STUBA: My review of the log
sheets was in response to this testimony.
MR. ETTINGER: I'm sorry. Just one
last thing. Is there any -- you're not -- are you
in charge of any continuous dissolved oxygen
monitoring -- the Water Reclamation District --
MR. STUBA: I'm in charge of the
boat crew that services the DO and the sans, the
equipment.
MR. ETTINGER: Okay. So you don't
actually -- you're not the one who is actually
reading the DO data?
MR. STUBA: No.
MR. TIPSORD: Mr. Harley.
MR. HARLEY: You mentioned you were
in the charge of the boat crews and the boat crews
are unionized, is that correct?
MR. STUBA: The boat operators, yes.
MR. HARLEY: Is it part of their job
description of which they are evaluated to record
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observed recreational uses?
MR. STUBA: No.
MR. HARLEY: So it's a gratuity that
they're performing?
MR. STUBA: A gratuity -- it's an
added task to ask them to fill out the log sheets.
MR. HARLEY: But it's on which you
could evaluate their job performance whether they
were doing it well or not?
MR. STUBA: Depending on how many
observations they saw, no.
MR. ANDES: Well, let me try to
clarify. Is this part of their job to note
recreational observations when they see them?
MR. STUBA: That is part of their
job.
MR. HARLEY: But it's not in their
job description?
MR. STUBA: No more than follow
directions or do what's asked of them. I mean --
MS. WILLIAMS: Other duties as
assigned, is that what you're --
MR. STUBA: Pardon me?
MS. WILLIAMS: Mine has other duties
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as assigned.
MR. STUBA: Exactly.
MR. HARLEY: This is other duties as
assigned. Have you ever reprimanded or -- Strike
that. You answered that question. I have
nothing.
MR. ANDES: Just to clarify. Their
primary job is to maintain the DO monitoring
equipment?
MR. STUBA: Correct.
MR. ANDES: And when they are moving
between stations, what are they doing as they're
moving up and down the waterways?
MR. STUBA: From station to station?
MR. ANDES: Yes.
MR. STUBA: There would be things
like maintaining the boat, make sure the boat is
operating in a normal and safe condition, cleaning
equipment, various navigational chores.
MR. ANDES: And if recreational
crafts are going by is it usually fairly obvious?
MR. STUBA: I would think so, yes.
MR. ANDES: Thank you.
MS. TIPSORD: Anything further?
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Wonderful then. Let's move on to
Mr. Dennison and his testimony on recreational
designations for the Chicago Area Waterway System.
And do we have a copy we can mark as an exhibit?
We will mark Mr. Dennison's pre-file testimony
with attachment as Exhibit Number 65. If there's
no objection. Seeing none, it is Exhibit Number
65. And then whenever you're ready, Mr. Dennison.
MR. DENNISON: My name is Samuel G.
Dennison. I am a Biologist IV in the
Environmental Monitoring and Research Division of
the Research and Development Department of the
Metropolitan Water Reclamation District of Greater
Chicago known as the District. I received a
Bachelor of Arts degree with a major in biology
from St. Mary's University in Winona, Minnesota, a
Master of Science degree in Fisheries Biology from
Iowa State University in Ames, Iowa, and a
Doctorate of Philosophy in biology from the
Illinois Institute of Technology in Chicago,
Illinois.
I am a Certified Fisheries
Professional with the American Fisheries Society
and also a past president of the Illinois Chapter
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of the American Fisheries Society. I have been
employed by the District since 1971. My primary
responsibility from 1974 through 2003 was
monitoring the fish populations in the Chicago
area waterways. Since 2000, I have served as the
head of the Aquatic Ecology and Water Quality
Section within the Environmental Monitoring and
Research Division where I supervise a staff of ten
persons.
Today, I will be presenting
testimony in regard to the recreational use
designation for the Chicago Area Waterway System
known as the CAWS. As a biologist with the
District, my work often included collecting fish
from many 400 meter long sampling locations
throughout the CAWS. For fish collecting, I
usually used flat bottom electrofishing boats, I
boats, 14 to 18 feet long. While collecting fish
or traveling to and from the sample locations, I
had plenty of time to observe the physical
conditions of waterways such as the condition and
structure of the banks and what was present on the
riparian areas.
In IPCB R08-9, most waterways in
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the CAWS have been designated for Incidental
Contact Recreation. Incidental Contact Recreation
includes fishing, commercial boating, small
craft recreational boating, and any limited
contact associated with shoreline activity such as
wading. At this point it should be noted that it
is reasonable for local governments to establish
and enforce certain regulations and restrictions
in order to ensure the safety of their citizenry.
For example, in Chicago, along
the Lake Michigan lakefront, there are numerous
signs warning, "no swimming," due to hazards like
deep waters, strong currents, or dangerous access
to the water. The water quality of Lake Michigan
may be very good, but there are many other valid
reasons for these swimming restrictions other than
water quality alone. The CAWS has similar safety
issues that can make swimming, wading, and boating
dangerous activities. Safety issues in the CAWS
include: (1) the man-made and modified
waterways do not have a shallow area along the
banks; (2) the depth along the banks increase
very rapidly proceeding away from the sides of the
waterways; (3) the banks of the waterways
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are lined with high vertical sheet piling or large
limestone rocks; (4) periodic draw downs of the
water level cause an unexpected rapid increase in
stream velocity; and (5) a large number of
commercial barges and large private power boats
operate in the CAWS.
I have had occasional,
unexpected, "close calls" over the years that have
reinforced the idea that the CAWS can be
extraordinarily dangerous for recreational
activities throughout its entire length. One time
as my sampling crew and I were on the north side
of the Calumet-Sag Channel, just inside the point
where the Channel bisects the Illinois Michigan
Canal (Attachment 1), a barge that broke loose
from a tow swiftly and silently moved towards a
not so silent collision with the Channel wall just
a few feet from our electrofishing boat.
MR. ANDES: Let me make sure we have
that right.
MS. TIPSORD: You said attachment
three.
MR. DENNISON: I meant Attachment 1.
Sorry.
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MS. TIPSORD: Thank you.
MR. DENNISON: I had no warning that
the barge was headed straight for us and I would
not be giving this testimony today had we decided
to head out into the Calumet-Sag Channel a minute
or so previous to the barges collision with the
channel wall.
This is a picture of the
junction of the Calumet-Sag Channel in the lower
portion with the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal
above it. This picture was taken probably around
1995, '96 or so and may be a little bit later in
the 2000's. And at this time, there's a SEPA
station here. The particular incident that I was
talking about happened before the SEPA station was
constructed, but up here next to the left of this
barge on the Cal-Sag channel is the entrance of
the Illinois and Michigan canal. That was the
spot that I was talking about where we had been in
our electrofishing boat just inside that mouth and
did not see a barge that had broken loose headed
towards us. It hit the side of the channel wall
which is a rock wall and had we just gone out at
that time, we probably would have been hit by the
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barge.
As you can see, there are numerous
barges that are in both the Cal-Sag Channel and
the Chicago Sanitary Ship Canal. In this
particular photo, you can see a motorized pleasure
craft that doesn't have that much room to pass
through the barge area because of the barges
parked alongside the canal.
MS. TIPSORD: And I would just note
for the record you have some of that description
also in your testimony on the attachment so that
people who are reading this transcript will be
able to follow that.
MR. DENNISON: There were also many
times when I was operating our electrofishing boat
that I had to avoid the waves of large pleasure
craft or barges in order to keep from getting
capsized.
When I first started collecting fish
for the District in the CAWS in the 1970's, I had
to make the decision to not use a minnow seine.
Seining is often conducted in order to capture
small fish while wading in a stream.
The decision not to use seines in
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the CAWS was predicated on the fact that it was
too dangerous to pull a seine along the banks of
these waterways because of the complete lack of
shallow areas and/or the sudden drop off in depth
from a narrow relatively wadeable area to much
deeper water.
In spite of the hazardous physical
conditions described above, a number of waterways
in the CAWS were designated for Incidental Contact
Recreation in the CAWS Use Attainability
Analysis (UAA) report. Because of the many
physical hazards in the CAWS, the following
waterways should be designated for Non-Contact
Recreation, contrary to the proposed Incidental
Contact Recreation classification. Number one,
the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal from the South
Branch of the Chicago River to the junction with
the Calumet-Sag Channel, number two, the entire
Calumet-Sag Channel, number three, the Chicago
River and number four, Bubbly Creek also known as
the South Fork or the South Branch of the Chicago
River.
Non-Contact Recreation is defined in
Section 301.323 of the IEPA's regulatory proposal
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as "any recreational activity in which human
contact with the water is unlikely, such as pass
through commercial or recreational navigation, and
where physical conditions or hydrologic
modifications make human contact unlikely or
dangerous." The physical limitations and
hydrological modifications described above clearly
apply to reaches of the CAWS that have been
incorrectly designated as Incidental Contact
Recreation in the proposed regulations.
IEPA's Statement of Reasons describes the
conditions in the CAWS very effectively as
follows: "Wakes coupled with vertical-wall
construction in many of the waterway reaches make
recreational uses dangerous. Small craft can
easily be capsized and persons in the water will
have little if any route for escape" (page 33).
Approximately 17,000 barges lock through Lockport
Lock and Dam and over 9,000 lock through O'Brien
Lock and dam each year.
Based on the physical hazards present
in the CAWS, the following waterways should be
considered as being Non-Contact Recreational
contrary to the proposed standards including the
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Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal from the South
Branch of the Chicago River to the junction with
the Calumet-Sag Channel, the entire Calumet-Sag
Channel, the Chicago River and Bubbly Creek,
otherwise known as the South Fork of the South
Branch of the Chicago River.
Justification and explanation for
designating these waterways as Non-Contact
recreation are as follows. The Chicago Sanitary
and Ship Canal from the South Branch of the
Chicago River to the confluence with the
Calumet-Sag Channel has unsafe depths for wading
and lacks points of egress due to vertical
sheet-pile channel walls. This is a pass through
area for recreational craft and commercial barge
traffic. (Attachment 2.) This photo shows an
example of the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal
with a barge with very many tows traveling down
the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal with very
little free board on each side. I shouldn't say
free board, but areas that another boat could pass
through on each side of it. This is a location
near Hodgkin's and the McCook Reservoir which is
near being dug for the TARP program for the
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District.
The proposed incidental contact
recreation use designation for the Chicago
Sanitary and Ship is alarmingly inconsistent with
IEPA's realistic verbiage describing the CAWS on
page 33 in the statement of reasons. The
Calumet-Sag Channel has unsafe depths for wading
along the banks of the waterway. It is a pass
through area for recreational craft and commercial
barge traffic shown in Attachment 3.
MR. ANDES: Let me stop you there
for a moment. We substituted a different picture
of the same barge for Attachment 3 and I'll give
the Board a copy of that to be marked. This is
the same exact barge as Attachment 3 just from the
other side. From the front instead of the back.
MR. TIPSORD: All right. And for
the record, let's mark this as Exhibit 66. If
there's no objection, seeing none, it is Exhibit
66.
MR. DENNISON: This is a photo of a
barge on the Cal-Sag Channel. You're looking from
the 104th Street bridge west as opposed to the one
in the testimony which is looking east. A barge
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coming down the Cal-Sag Channel also has little
room on either side for navigation to pass whether
they're pleasure boats or whatever.
The barge also brings up quite a
bit of wave behind it and it's a situation that we
see often throughout the system. Similar to the
Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal, the Calumet-Sag
Channel is a man-made deep trapezoidal shaped
channel. The United States Army Core of
Engineers, USACE, who operate the Chicago area
locks reported 8,792 barges traveled up or down
the Calumet-Sag Channel during 2006 alone. Data
is available on USACE web site. The Calumet-Sag
Channel lacks points of egress along the waterway
if a boat capsizes or an emergency situation
arises. Industrial riparian land use is common
along the Calumet-Sag Channel except for an
approximately five mile reach upstream of the
confluence with the Chicago Sanitary and Ship
Canal which is a forest preserve. Steep lime
stoned channel walls, soft contaminated sediments
and steep drop offs along the bank characterize
most of Calumet-Sag Channel.
Bubbly Creek has extremely deep,
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fine particulate silk sediments deposited on the
bottom resulting in unsafe conditions for wading.
The sediments are contaminated with organic
pollutants and heavy metals. There are steep
banks and vertical sheet pile walls in some
reaches. (Attachment 4) During and following wet
weather events, the District's Racine Avenue
Pumping Station discharges a large volume of
combined sewage overflow into Bubbly Creek
that causes an unexpected rise in the water level
along with a substantial increase in flow
velocity in the narrow creek. These hydrologic
conditions are dangerous for any individual in
the water and for boaters. In addition to these
dangerous conditions, points of egress are very
limited due to steep banks and steel sheet piling
along the banks of most of the waterway
reaches. The Chicago River is analogous to the
section of the Calumet River from Lake Michigan to
Lake Calumet which the IEPA has designated as
Non-Contact Recreation and IPCB R08-9.
Similar to the comparable section of the Calumet
River, recreational boaters use the
Chicago waterway as a gateway to enter Lake
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Michigan from the inland waterways. Like the
Calumet River, the Chicago River has high vertical
sheet-pile channel walls and no shallow areas
occur along the waterway. The same reasoning that
IEPA used to designate the Calumet River
Non-Contact Recreational should be applied to the
Chicago River. While the number of
commercial barges operating in the Chicago River
is small, the river does support navigation
from a significant and growing number of large
commercial tour boats, in addition to the high
volume of recreational power boats. The Chicago
River lacks points of egress from the
waterway should a boat capsize or an emergency
situation arise (Attachment 5). Respectfully
submitted by Samuel G. Dennison.
MR. TIPSORD: Mr. Dennison, I
believe we can go right to the IEPA with
questions.
MS. DIERS: Mr. Dennison, I'm going
to skip question number one because I believe that
was covered by Mr. Lanyon. So I'll go to two. In
your opinion, what types of recreational boating
activities should be protected in the incidental
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contact water proposed by IEPA, but not protected
in the Non-Contact waters proposed by IEPA?
MR. ANDES: Can I ask for
clarification? What do you mean by protected,
allowed, noted? I'm not sure what protected means
there.
MS. DIERS: I think I'll refrain to
the designated uses.
MR. ANDES: So you're asking for his
recommendation in terms of how his proposal should
be revised? Because the --
MS. DIERS: I was asking his opinion
as to for the uses that we've proposed be
protected with incidental contact waters, but not
protected by the non-contact waters.
MR. ANDES: So what activities
should be listed in the category for incidental
contact versus which ones should be listed in the
definition of non-contact, is that it?
MS. DIERS: Yes.
MR. DENNISON: Hand powered
recreational boating, no hand powered recreational
boating is allowed in the non-contact waters.
MS. DIERS: Number three, is fishing
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on the South Fork of the South Branch Chicago
River occurring?
MR. DENNISON: I have seen people
fishing from the banks at Origins Park which is at
the mouth of the South Fork of the South Branch of
the Chicago River and which I've referred to as
Bubbly Creek.
MS. DIERS: Do individuals that fish
there need to be protected from potential harm to
their health related to the use of the CAWS?
MR. DENNISON: Well, there's always
physical safety issues that should be considered
when fishing in the CAWS. For example, in Bubbly
Creek, there are steep banks with abrupt drop offs
below the water line into deep soft unstable
contaminated sediment deposits. Hazardous flow
conditions can be present during and following
rain events due to combined sewer overflow
discharges from the Racine Avenue Pumping Station.
MS. DIERS: Anything else?
MR. DENNISON: Those are the main
ones.
MS. DIERS: Okay. On question four
on page six of your pre-file testimony, you state
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that the agency should treat the Calumet River
from Lake Michigan to Lake Calumet and the Chicago
River main stem in the same manner for
recreational use purposes. Does the Calumet River
also have evidence of existing hand powered
recreational boating?
MR. DENNISON: I have no personal
knowledge that it does.
MS. DIERS: Question five on page
four of your pre-file testimony, you state the
proposed incidental contact recreation use
designation for the Chicago Sanitary and Ship
Canal is alarmingly inconsistent with Illinois
EPA's realistic verbiage describing the CAWS on
page 33 in the Illinois Statement of Reasons.
Does the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal from the
South Branch Chicago River to the confluence with
the Calumet-Sag Channel have public access
facilities such as boat rental and/or boat
launches?
MR. DENNISON: I know about a boat
launching ramp at Summit.
MS. DIERS: What about Western
Avenue?
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MR. DENNISON: I know about Western
Avenue being constructed. I wasn't sure if it was
open. If it is, then there's another one.
MS. DIERS: And do you know if these
facilities restrict small craft such as canoes,
kayaks or jet skis?
MR. DENNISON: I don't know if there
are restrictions.
MS. DIERS: Six, is there anything
from preventing canoes or kayaks entering the
Chicago River?
MR. ANDES: A follow up.
MS. TIPSORD: Go ahead.
MR. ANDES: Are we talking about
anything physical, physical restrictions? I
assume that's what you mean.
MS. DIERS: Any type of
restrictions.
MR. ANDES: Is there something other
than physical? I'm just trying to figure out --
Are you talking about warnings? Are you talking
about just physical restrictions where they can't
get in? I wasn't sure if there was anything else
being referenced there.
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MS. DIERS: That's fine.
MR. ANDES: Okay.
MS. DIERS: And your answer was, no,
correct, to that question?
MR. DENNISON: Correct.
MS. DIERS: Seven, on page 4-46 of
the CAWS UAA, which I believe is attachment B,
reports indicates that sculling and hand powered
boating occur in the Chicago River. To your
knowledge, are there canoes or kayaks in the
Chicago River?
MR. DENNISON: Yes.
MS. DIERS: Number eight, on page
two of your pre-file testimony, you speak about
the dangers of how -- and I'm paraphrasing going
to four, periodic draw downs of water level causes
unexpected rapid increase in stream velocity. Can
you quantify the degree to which velocity varies
during drawdowns and then describe the reaches in
which such velocities rapidly increase and present
a hazard to recreational users?
MR. DENNISON: I don't have the
numbers to quantify the degree of drawdown
velocities. A drawdown that I remember on the
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Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal upstream of the
Lockport Lock and Dam was especially swift and
dangerous and I don't believe that I could have
controlled a hand powered boat and possibly not
even a fishing boat with an outboard motor at that
point in the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal at
that time.
MR. ANDES: I'd like to follow up on
that. Can you give any information as to which
reaches you believe have these velocity issues
during drawdowns?
MR. DENNISON: Well, it's pretty
much the lower portion of the waterway system.
Especially, in the, I suppose, the Cal-Sag
Channel, the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal both
above and below the junction with the Cal-Sag.
MR. ANDES: That also indicates
Bubbly Creek.
MR. DENNISON: Well, with Bubbly
Creek you've got a situation of both drawdowns as
well as CSO discharge during wet weather events,
rain events which are very dangerous.
MS. DIERS: Do you disagree with the
UAA observations and findings that incidental
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contact activities occur at these reaches?
MR. ANDES: Which reaches are we
talking about?
MS. TIPSORD: The ones referred to
earlier in the questions with the velocity issues.
MR. DENNISON: I have no reason to
doubt the UAA observation.
MS. DIERS: Mr. Dennison, I'm going
to try again.
MR. ANDES: All right.
MS. DIERS: In your opinion, is the
recreational use potential of the Sanitary and
Ship Canal different from the South Branch Chicago
River and its South Fork, the Cal-Sag Channel, or
other man-made or heavily altered reaches?
MR. DENNISON: No.
MS. DIERS: Thank you. That's all
we have.
MR. TIPSORD: This might be a good
point. I see Openlands has several questions.
Why don't we take a ten-minute break and come
back. And I'll take that exhibit and make copies.
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(Whereupon, a break was taken
after which the following
proceedings were had.)
MS. TIPSORD: Are we ready to go
back on the record? Are you ready? Are we ready?
Mr. Dennison, are you ready?
MR. DENNISON: Yes.
MR. TIPSORD: Okay. Let's go back
on the record again. I apologize. I missed the
PHD, Dr. Dennison. Go ahead.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Thank you. For
the record, Stacy Meyers-Glen with Openlands.
Mr. Dennison, on page two of your testimony you
discuss general concerns about safe use of the
CAWS. All reaches of the Chicago and Calumet
River systems identical in nature?
MR. DENNISON: No, they're not
identical.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: They have
different characteristics, right?
MR. DENNISON: As I've stated in my
testimony, they're not identical.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And you state this
in -- this is question number two. You state that
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the man-made and modified waterways do not have
shallow areas along the banks. That's page two of
your testimony.
MR. DENNISON: Yes.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Later in your
testimony on page three you state there were some
narrow, relatively wadable areas in the CAWS, is
that correct?
MR. DENNISON: Mm-hmm.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: To clarify, can
you state which stretches of the CAWS have shallow
areas along the banks?
MR. DENNISON: By narrow, relatively
wadable areas, I was referring to those portions
of the CAWS that do not have vertical sheet pile
walls on concrete walls or wood walls or limestone
rock. I was concerned that people should know
that stepping into the water more than a foot or
two in the CAWS can put you in danger of slipping
down on a steep slope to unsafe depths.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Sir, I don't
believe, however, that answers my question. My
question was to clarify just the position in your
testimony. Could you please indicate which
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stretches of the Chicago area waterways have
shallow areas along the banks? Specifically,
where.
MR. DENNISON: One, I mean it's
occasional. It's not going to be occurring very
often. One place that sticks out in my mind might
be Route 83 on the Cal-Sag Channel just upstream
on the South Bank, but keep in mind that shallow
doesn't necessarily mean wadable. You could sink
into the soft sediment.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Are you aware in
the North Shore Channel of how deep it is along
that channel?
MR. DENNISON: Well, I think
originally the channel was cut as about a ten foot
channel or more. Now, it varies in depth.
Sometimes we'll even hit the bottom in the center
of the channel, the soft bottom with the outboard
motor.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: So there are
shallow areas in the North Shore Channel?
MR. DENNISON: Shallow in terms of
you wouldn't want to stand in them.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: So you're saying
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you would not want to stand in the North Shore
Channel?
MR. DENNISON: Because of the
unstable, soft sediment, that's what I mean. You
know, wadable can be dangerous if you're wading in
them.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Objection.
There's no question pending.
MR. TIPSORD: Your objection is
overruled. He's explaining wadable a little bit
more.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Okay. You list as
additional concerns that the water increases in
depth quickly from the sides of the waterways and
that the river banks are, quote, lined with high
vertical sheet piling or large limestone rocks on
page three of your testimony, 3A, is where I'm at.
Are there places along the CAWS that have gradual
slopes?
MR. DENNISON: Yes, but isolated.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And are there
areas along the different stretches that are not
lined with sheet piling or large rocks?
MR. DENNISON: Yes, but isolated.
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MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And aren't there
large wooded expanses along the banks of the North
Branch Chicago River and the North Shore Channel
that do not have high vertical sheet piling or
concrete walls?
MR. DENNISON: I'm not sure by what
you mean by large wooded expanses, but there are
lengths of stream banks that have trees along them
that also do not have high vertical sheet piling
of concrete walls.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And that's a
decent percentage of those two stretches, is that
correct?
MR. DENNISON: Are you referring to
the North Branch in the North Shore Channel?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Yes.
MR. DENNISON: I don't know the
percentage. Certainly -- I certainly remember
them enough to say that they're there in a large
number, I suppose.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: It's definitely
not isolated, correct?
MR. DENNISON: Well, it depends on
you definition of isolated, I guess. It's less
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than it is there, less then there are no areas of
large wooded expanses in your words.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: I'm sorry. Can
you clarify because I'm not understanding.
MR. DENNISON: I guess what I'm
saying is the percentage is less than 50 percent
of the area that has trees in my mind.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: But it's
substantial.
MR. DENNISON: It depends on your
definition of substantial. I guess, so.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Question four, on
page four of your testimony you attribute the
following quote from the Illinois Environmental
Protection Agency statement of reasons to the
Chicago area waterways as a whole, quote, wakes
coupled with vertical wall construction in many of
the waterway reaches make recreational use
dangerous. Small craft can easily be capsized and
persons in the water will have little, if any,
route for escape. And you attribute that to the
statement of reasons page 33. 4A, doesn't the
IEPA then largely attribute these characteristics
to areas that encroached for Non-Contact
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recreational use such as the Chicago Sanitary and
Ship Canal from it's confluence with the
Calumet-Sag Channel to the confluence with the Des
Plaines River and, again, that would be
referencing statement of reasons page 33 a little
bit further down the page.
MR. ANDES: I'm going to object on
two grounds here. First, I believe that those
statements are being mischaracterized. Second, I
don't think it's fair to ask the witness to -- the
document says what it says, the document is in the
record and it stands for what it stands for?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: May I respond?
MS. TIPSORD: Sure.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: He is
characterizing what this statement means. He is
saying as the IEPA has characterized it and he is
using this in a specific way to show the intent of
the IEPA with this statement. So I think it's
important if he's going to extract that statement
for a certain purpose in order to set it in
context. Especially, if he's going to be stating
this applies to all of the CAWS when the IEPA then
limits the application of this provision to only a
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specific portion. And this is based on his
testimony and what he does for the --
MR. ANDES: We can certainly take
that page and read it into the record, but I think
that's the only accurate way to address this
issue.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Well, I think it's
also, however, the witnesses impression on this
and what he does with it. It's not only the raw
statement, the reasons itself. It's the
conclusions that he bears from these statements.
MS. TIPSORD: I think you can ask
him if, in his opinion, the agency contributes
these characteristics to non-recreational waters.
I don't think you can ask him what the IEPA then
states in the statement of reasons. I think the
statement of reasons speaks for itself. You can
ask him since he has used it, in his opinion, he
says this is what I think the IEPA attributes
these characteristics to the areas that it at the
present does not affect non-recreational waters.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Okay. Then I'll
ask that. Would you like me to restate that?
MS. TIPSORD: No, I think that's all
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right. Dr. Dennison, can you follow the question
that is being asked of you? Since you attribute a
quote and say the IEPA has used this phrase and
now in your opinion does the IEPA then attribute
the wake coupled with the vertical wall
construction, et cetera, to non-recreational
waters? Did I further confuse things?
MR. DENNISON: Yes. It refers to
most of the CAWS in the Lower Des Plaines River.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Let me see if this
works. Are you aware that the IEPA states that
the remaining reaches of the CAWS and Lower Des
Plaines River are more assessable to the public
and support a greater variety of recreational
uses?
MR. ANDES: Is he aware that the
document says that?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Is he aware that
the IEPA attributes the remaining reaches of the
CAWS and the Lower Des Plaines and they
characterize it as more accessible to the public?
It supports greater variety of recreational uses.
If he's going to be --
MR. ANDES: The remaining reaches --
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MS. MEYERS-GLEN: -- giving his
opinion on the characterization of the CAWS, is he
aware that the IEPA has also attributed the
remaining reaches, characterizing remaining
reaches in this way?
MR. ANDES: But what you're doing is
saying that the statement about remaining reaches
is the opposite of the statement in the beginning
of your question four and that's conclusion or
interpretation of what the agency says in the
statement of reasons. He can agree that the
document says what it says, but for you to say
"Well, isn't it this and then the opposite is
that," I think you're asking him to characterize
the document and I don't think that's right and I
don't agree with that characterization orally.
MR. TIPSORD: As someone who is
sitting here with a statement of reasons in front
of her, I think the statement of reasons and we
can agree that the statement of reasons has all of
these quotes in them and the board can draw its
own interpretation and couple that with what Dr.
Dennison has had to say. I understand what you're
doing and understand what -- you're trying to get
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further opinion based on what the statement of
reasons says, but I'm not sure this is the way to
do it. You are beginning to characterize things
that I don't necessarily think we can characterize
out of the statement of reasons.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: I'll withdraw the
question. 4C, does the District promote some of
these recreational activities such as the
Flatwater Classic which recently occurred in
September of this year and it has been occurring
annually?
MR. ANDES: Can we agree that this
question has already been asked and answered by
the District?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: I think that --
MR. ANDES: He's not going to give
you a different answer than Mr. Lanyon.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Didn't
Mr. Lanyon -- didn't we state that another witness
was going to be covering this?
MR. ANDES: No. I think you said
you were going to introduce evidence to this.
Mr. Lanyon explained what the District's
activities are the Flatwater Classic,
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specifically.
MS. TIPSORD: Including addressing
the fact that they don't -- the flows and stuff
like that.
MR. ANDES: Right. It's been
answered.
MS. TIPSORD: You can ask him if he
knows of any other -- the second part of the
question if he knows of any other activities that
the District endorses that Mr. Lanyon didn't
because Mr. Lanyon certainly didn't claim to know
all of them.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: In addition the
activities that Mr. Lanyon discussed as far as his
knowledge of the Flatwater Classic, does the
District provide any assistance or has the
District provided assistance in the past with
recreational activities?
MR. ANDES: That you know of.
MR. DENNISON: Not to the best of my
knowledge.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: So you're unaware
of any other activities that the District assists
in?
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MR. DENNISON: Perhaps previous
Flatwater Classics, would that work?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: 4D, are you aware
that there are at least 23 boat launches along the
CAWS of the Chicago area waterways and numerous
others proposed for construction which allows
paddlers to enter and exit the waterways?
MR. ANDES: Same objection noted.
MR. TIPSORD: I think we can ask him
about his personal awareness.
MR. ANDES: That's fine.
MR. DENNISON: I know there are boat
launches on the CAWS. I don't know the particular
restrictions that these boat launches have.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Are you aware of
how many are along the CAWS based upon your
experience out from the waterways?
MR. DENNISON: No, I don't know.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: So then is it safe
to say that you don't know how many launch sites
along the CAWS the District helped to establish
and provide permission and access to build?
MR. DENNISON: No.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Do you know of
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places in the CAWS such as the one on the Little
Calumet River near the railroad bridge between
Halsted and Indiana Avenue that people can and do
tie up or store their paddling boats next to the
shore, like, right off the shore?
MR. DENNISON: I have no personal
knowledge that they are allowed to do that --
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Not that they're
allowed to do that, but that they actually do it.
MR. DENNISON: -- or that they do
that.
MR. MEYERS-GLEN: In addition, are
there marinas such as Phase Point that have places
where paddlers can get out of the water?
MR. DENNISON: By getting out of the
water, you mean pulling up to a dock and getting
out of the water from --
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: They're able to
leave the water if there's a ramp.
MR. DENNISON: From their boat?
MR. MEYERS-GLEN: Yes. If they're
in a kayak or canoe or, otherwise, a hand powered
boat, can they leave the water at any of the
marinas that you know of?
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MR. DENNISON: I mentioned that I
didn't know the restrictions, but I don't see why
a paddler couldn't go over there and just get out
if they needed to. They could worry about that
later with the owner.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: On five, in your
testimony you proposed the IEPA designate the CSSC
from the South Branch of the Chicago River to the
confluence with the Calumet-Sag Channel as
non-contact recreational use because the waterway
has deep areas, lacks access points because of
high channel walls and is used by barges and
recreational crafts and I'm referring to page four
of your testimony. Number 5A, are there boat
launch sites that provide canoe and kayak access
to this stretch of the CAWS such as boat club
launches, Summit boat ramps and the Western Avenue
boat launch?
MR. DENNISON: I don't know what
their operational parameters are.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Do they exist?
MR. DENNISON: Certainly, the Summit
boat ramp and the Western Avenue launch, I
mentioned before.
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MS. MEYERS-GLEN: So those exist?
MR. DENNISON: Yes.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And how about the
boat club launches, are you familiar with those?
MR. DENNISON: There are -- are you
referring to marinas in general?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: I'm referring to
marinas as well as --
MR. DENNISON: Certainly, marinas.
MR. ANDES: What specific sites.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Okay. And also
floating docks?
MR. ANDES: So boat club launches
refers to marinas and floating docks? I'm just
trying to understand --
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Launch points
where boat clubs actually use those points to
access the waterways. They can be marinas, they
can be floating docks.
MR. ANDES: Any launches at boat
clubs?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: That's for the
boat clubs, yes, in addition to the Summit boat
ramp and the Western Avenue boat launch.
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MR. DENNISON: I don't know of any
particular boat club. I don't -- marinas.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And as far as
the -- you had mentioned twice the Summit boat
ramp.
MR. DENNISON: Yes.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Wasn't that
provided with the cooperation and support of the
District?
MR. DENNISON: I have no personal
knowledge of that, but I believe Mr. Lanyon's
testimony, it may be in there.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Do you go by the
Summit boat ramp in your responsibilities?
MR. DENNISON: I have.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Are you familiar
with the signs of the District on that property?
MR. DENNISON: Are you referring to
the caution signs that are on the --
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: No, I'm referring
to the sign that states that the Summit boat ramp
is provided with the cooperation and support of --
MR. DENNISON: Yeah, I evidentially
didn't recall that. I don't recall that now even.
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MS. MEYERS-GLEN: In addition, do
you know of any boat launches proposed for
construction on the South Branch of the Chicago
River near the confluence with the Chicago
Sanitary and Ship Canal which would provide
further access to paddlers?
MR. DENNISON: No.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: How many times
have you passed -- This is C. I apologize. How
many times have you passed recreational craft or
commercial barges in your electrofishing boat?
MR. DENNISON: Many times. I don't
have numbers.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Did you ever
capsize as a passenger?
MR. DENNISON: Not quite. Almost,
but no.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: But you did not,
correct?
MR. DENNISON: No.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Are there areas
along the stretch of the CSSC that do not have
high vertical walls?
MR. DENNISON: Yes, some areas do,
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some do not.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And how much of
the banks along this waterway are lined with trees
and vegetation?
MR. DENNISON: I don't have a
number, some are and some are not.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: If you have to
give me a percentage.
MR. DENNISON: Probably, I'll guess
at 25.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: So your testimony
is that 25 --
MR. ANDES: That's not his
testimony. He guessed at 25. Please don't state
it that way.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: He said about 25.
That is your testimony, correct?
MR. DENNISON: I said guess, a guess
would be about.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Okay. How many
great blue heron have you seen while out on this
part of the CSSC?
MR. DENNISON: Well, I don't monitor
birds species, occurrence, or number of birds in
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the CAWS.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Do you know what
an egret looks like?
MR. DENNISON: I have seen egrets.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Have you seen them
while out on the CSSC?
MR. DENNISON: I don't recall seeing
any.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Have you seen them
while out in the CAWS?
MR. DENNISON: I believe so, but I
don't recall specific incidents because we don't
note that as data.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: I'm just talking
about your personal observations, not what you
have to record.
MR. DENNISON: Well, that's what I
would refer to to remind me of where I've seen
things.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Have you seen
black crowned -- or what are called night herons?
MR. DENNISON: I can remember
someone mentioning that there is a black crowned
night heron, but I don't recall seeing it myself.
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MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Was that along the
CSSC?
MR. DENNISON: I don't remember
where.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: How about any
green herons or king fishers?
MR. DENNISON: I don't know if I can
quickly be able to tell the difference between a
black crowned night heron and a green heron, maybe
with a king fisher I could, but I wouldn't
necessarily know it's a king fisher.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Have you observed
any eagles out on the CSSC or the Cal-Sag Channel?
MR. DENNISON: I have not personally
seen eagles on the CAWS.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Do you know of
District employees seeing eagles out on these
waterways?
MR. DENNISON: I believe that I once
received a photo of -- a digital photo from one of
the industrial waste division personnel of an
eagle that is supposed to be on the Little Calumet
River along the shores.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Number six, do you
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agree that canoeing, kayaking and sculling are
existing recreational uses on the Chicago Sanitary
and Ship Canal above the confluence of the Cal-Sag
Channel?
MR. ANDES: I need to clarify
something here. Existing uses is a legal term.
If we're asking whether those recreational uses
exist -- but I don't want to get into him
providing an interpretation on a legal term.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: I can rephrase the
question if you like.
MR. ANDES: Thank you.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Do you agree that
canoeing, kayaking and sculling have occurred and
are occurring on the Chicago Sanitary and Ship
Canal above the confluence of the Calumet-Sag
Channel? And when I have occurred, I mean after
1975 to present.
MR. DENNISON: I personally don't
remember seeing any of those canoeing, kayaking or
sculling. However, I've heard that there were
sculling activities in the news or something like
that.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Are you aware that
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District staff is starting to monitor dissolved
oxygen stations reporting 55 incidences of
canoeing, kayaking or sculling on the CSSC above
the confluence of the Cal-Sag Channel on weekdays
in 2006?
MR. DENNISON: I have no reason to
doubt that.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: So these uses
exist on this stretch of the waterway, correct?
MR. ANDES: Can we not use that
terminology?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: These uses occur?
MR. DENNISON: I believe the
reports.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Number seven, do
sculling teams practice on the Chicago Sanitary
and Ship Canal and South Branch of the Chicago
River?
MR. DENNISON: I haven't actually
seen them myself. As I mentioned, I have heard
about them.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Can I ask, how
often are you out on the waterways?
MR. DENNISON: I have had a variable
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number of stations that I have to collect from
during the years. Between 1974 and 2001, I might
be out there 25 to 30 times a year -- 2003, I
guess. Between 2003 when I assumed the section
head of the aquatic ecology and water quality
section, I haven't really been going out as much.
MS. FRISBIE: Have you ever been out
in a canoe or kayak or sculling --
MR. DENNISON: What's the last one?
MS. FRISBIE: Have you ever been
canoeing, kayaking or sculling on any of these
waterways?
MR. DENNISON: Not on these
waterways, except possibly with oars and a row
boat.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: When you were out,
was it during the work week?
MR. DENNISON: Generally, when I'm
out on the canals, it's during the work week, yes.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: During work hours?
MR. DENNISON: Yes.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: So are we then on
weekends or holidays?
MR. DENNISON: Yes. And that's
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probably why I haven't seen some of these things
that you've been mentioning. I think that's
pretty obvious.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Number eight, does
the city of Chicago conduct student activities,
such as field trips, studies and surveys on the
CSSC at Western Avenue? CSSC is Chicago Sanitary
and Ship Canal.
MR. DENNISON: I don't have any
personal knowledge that it occurs.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: When you mean you
don't have any personal knowledge, can you
elaborate?
MR. DENNISON: I don't know if the
city of Chicago conducts student activities
because I haven't been involved in that. I
haven't seen any going on.
MR. MEYERS-GLEN: So then it's safe
to say you wouldn't know whether the District has
supported these efforts?
MR. DENNISON: No.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: It's not safe to
say or --
MR. DENNISON: It is safe to say.
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MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Number nine, on
page five of your testimony you state the
Calumet-Sag Channel lacks points of egress along
the waterways -- both capsizes or an emergency
situation arises. A, can people who kayak, canoe
and scull get out of the water at the Worth Police
Boats Launch and Howe's Landing or Alsip on the
Calumet-Sag Channel?
MR. DENNISON: I don't see why not.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Is there also
access at Phase Point and the Little Calumet boat
ramp which is closed to the confluence of the
Calumet-Sag Channel?
MR. DENNISON: You know, I'm not
familiar with Phase Point. As I mentioned, I
hadn't been out there since 2003 very much and I
didn't take a look at it on one of the maps on the
Internet and it looks pretty impressive, but I
haven't -- You know, I'm just not that familiar
with it.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: So you recognize
that it exists?
MR. DENNISON: Yes, but if a capsize
occurred close enough to these places then perhaps
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you could get an egress there or else you could
pull a canoe out if it was still afloat.
MR. ANDES: But to follow up on
that -- So what would happen if you capsized in
the Cal-Sag Channel and you weren't near one of
these exit points.
MR. DENNISON: Well, SOL, I guess.
I guess you would be in deep trouble. Depending
on your experience at using a capsized canoe and
either flipping it -- I think people who are more
experienced at that may find that of various
efficiencies of their being able to do it. If
you're not, if you're a novice, I'd hate to be out
there.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Well, in addition
to the boat launches and Phase Point that you
talked about -- On ten, are there areas along the
banks of the Calumet-Sag Channel without steep
limestone channel walls where a canoe or kayak
could exit the water?
MR. DENNISON: Isolated areas.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Can you please
define those isolated areas. What are you
thinking of?
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MR. DENNISON: Again, perhaps the
South Bank upstream of Route 83 and the Cal-Sag.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Are there any
other areas where there are either spaces where
somebody would exit the water or breaks where
that's possible as to your knowledge?
MR. DENNISON: I don't recall any
offhand on the Cal-Sag.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And do some of the
crumbled rock walls actually provide refugium or
refuge for aquatic life?
MR. DENNISON: Well, you know, I
don't even have personal knowledge that they do.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Number twelve, are
there homes with private docks or ramps down to
the water along this Calumet-Sag Channel?
MR. DENNISON: At the Calumet-Sag
Channel, had it been the Little Cal that's up,
yes, but the Calumet-Sag Channel I don't recall
any homes with docks.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: You don't recall?
MR. DENNISON: Yeah.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Are there resting
places with benches that slope down to the river
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bank? This is question 13.
MR. DENNISON: Well, we do have some
benches at the SEPA station and unless you're
talking about cemetery's or something like that, I
don't know of any other.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: What I'm talking
about is are there any benches that are just
places of rest that you would find potentially
along the side of the river where you would see
then a gradual slope down to the shore at that
location. Have you ever seen that?
MR. DENNISON: Again, I've seen
benches at some of the SEPA stations along in the
Cal-Sag, but I don't recall any necessarily where
there was a sloping shore with a bench there.
MR. ANDES: I'd like to follow up on
that. Two questions, Dr. Dennison, first for
those who are uninitiated, can you explain what a
SEPA station is?
MR. DENNISON: A SEPA station is a
side stream elevated pool, a ration station that's
constructed in order to add dissolved oxygen to
the water by a cascading water situation where
dissolved oxygen increases into the canal.
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MR. ANDES: And are there safety
risks of canoeing or kayaking or hand powered
boating near the SEPA stations?
MR. DENNISON: Well. It's fairly
turbulent right by the SEPA station itself. I
guess I would avoid that area if I was in a canoe
or a kayak.
MR. ANDES: Thank you.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Question fourteen,
in addition to the five miles of forest preserve
district property upstream of the Chicago Sanitary
and Ship Canal, how much of the Calumet-Sag
Channel banks are lined with trees and other
vegetation, in addition to the five mile stretch
of the forest preservation District?
MR. DENNISON: I don't know. I
don't know a number. I wouldn't even want to
guess.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: There's quite a
bit of property, though, that's lined with trees
and vegetation along the Cal-Sag Channel, is that
correct?
MR. ANDES: He said he doesn't know.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Well, he didn't
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know a percentage. I was wondering if he could
characterize what he does know about the
vegetation. I mean this is something you used to
go out and work in on a regular basis, correct?
MR. DENNISON: Well, let me give you
some examples that are not in the forest preserve
area. One good one would be at Cicero Avenue on
the Cal-Sag Channel. That's one of my sampling
stations. One side has trees -- lined with trees,
the other side is much less. So in that
particular situation you have an isolated case of,
at least, maybe 40 percent of area that's not
lined with trees.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And the other 60
percent --
MR. DENNISON: In that location.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Are there any
other locations where there are trees along the
Cal-Sag Channel?
MR. DENNISON: Well, I'm sure there
are locations where there are trees, but as far as
assuming you mean somewhat dense groves, I can't
think of any except for the areas of the forest
preserve district.
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MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Fifteen, please
state whether you are aware of the following
existing recreational uses on the Calumet-Sag
Channel.
MR. ANDES: And if you could
rephrase that beginning portion, I'd appreciate
that.
MR. MEYERS-GLEN: Sure. Fifteen,
please state -- Actually, strike the initial
question, please. Fifteen, please, state whether
you are aware of the following recreational uses
that have occurred since 1975 and are occurring on
the Calumet-Sag Channel. A, routine sculling
practices and races includes the 2007 Division I
competition where 300 -- Actually, it was surplus.
Three hundred women raced on the Calumet-Sag
Channel, are you aware of that?
MR. DENNISON: I am aware because I
happened to come upon it on the Internet when I
was looking for information on Phase Point and I
got a chance to see the video on the --
MR. ANDES: But you have no direct
knowledge?
MR. DENNISON: No direct knowledge.
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I wasn't out there. I didn't know it was going to
happen.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: At the time that
you made your assessments and gave your opinions
and your testimony, were you aware of it?
MR. DENNISON: No.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Were you aware of
observations of swimming, driving, skiing and
tubing, wading, fishing and power boating during
the limited UAA study observations in 2003?
MR. DENNISON: Well, I was aware of
the UAA's study observations.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And C, were you
aware of the District observations of canoeing,
kayaking and sculling in 2005 and 2006 along the
Calumet-Sag Channel? And I'm referring to --
MR DENNISON: I'm aware of
Mr. Stuba's testimony and I read those and I have
no reason to disagree with that.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And were you aware
of those uses in B and C when you formulated your
conclusions in your responses in your testimony?
MR. DENNISON: Well, I knew about
the UAA study and I may have seen Stuba's
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observations. I don't recall.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Did you base your
opinions, in part, on that information?
MR. DENNISON: Well, I knew that
there was something going on of those activities
as they were observed.
MS. FRISBIE: Margaret Frisbie.
When you looked up Phase Point on the Internet
recently, did you notice that the Southland
Regatta that Stacy is referring to is happening
again this year on the 2nd of November?
MR. DENNISON: No, I didn't.
MR. ANDES: I have a standing
objection to all of these. Thank you.
MS. WILLIAMS: Even if these were
discussed at the June 16th -- wouldn't that be
relevant. If some of these activities were
entered into evidence at the June 16th hearing,
wouldn't they be --
MS. FRISBIE: The objection wouldn't
apply to those, right?
MS. TIPSORD: We had testimony on
June 15th to the people kayaking and -- but to the
specifics and the details on some of these things
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that were not testified to on June 15th, which we
are expecting to see testimony on later.
MS. WILLIAMS: Right.
MR. TIPSORD: Much as we're
expecting to see economic testimony later.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Question 16, you
state on page five of your testimony that
industrial riparian land use is common along the
Calumet-Sag Channel except for a approximately
five mile stream reach upstream of the confluence
with the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal which is
forest preserve, how much of the property along
the banks of the Calumet-Sag Channel is commercial
or industrial along the bank?
MR. DENNISON: Along the bank?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Yes.
MR. DENNISON: I don't have a
figure. I think it's common.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Isn't only a small
portion of the property abutting the Calumet-Sag
Channel -- or canal -- sorry -- considered to be
commercial or industrial?
MR. ANDES: He just answered it. He
said it was common.
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MS. MEYERS-GLEN: I'll withdraw the
question. Seventeen, in your testimony concerning
Bubbly Creek on page five you state there are
steep banks and vertical sheet pile walls in some
or most of the reaches --
THE COURT REPORTER: Can you speak
up, please?
MS. TIPSORD: Stacy, you need to
speak up.
MR. ANDES: I have to clarify here
because I'm not sure what we're doing.
Mr. Dennison, as I understand it, has several
different testimonies. One of which referred to
Bubbly Creek and another where it relates to
aquatic life. I have been assuming that we were
just asking questions about one of them now and
I'm afraid of where the records going to be if we
depart from that. And, also, I have follow up
questions on some of these aquatic life and Bubbly
Creek issues that I don't want to get to if we're
not there yet.
MS. WILLIAMS: I think you did
misspeak. You said one was for aquatic life, did
you mean one was for recreational?
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MR. ETTINGER: I'm sorry. One was
on Bubbly Creek --
MS. TIPSORD: There's recreational,
Bubbly Creek, Cal-Sag and dissolved oxygen and I
had assumed we were staying with recreational
stuff. If these are not recreational or to the
recreational use then they should be reserved
until after the Bubbly Creek testimony.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: My questions are
solely concerning recreational use.
MS. TIPSORD: Okay. That's what I
thought you were doing.
MR. ANDES: These just happen to be
recreational as to Bubbly Creek.
MR. ETTINGER: Now, I understand.
Sorry.
MR. ANDES: With that assumption --
We're talking about a statement you made in your
Bubbly Creek testimony, but you're specific
question is concerning recreational use.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: That is correct.
I am specifically looking at the testimony
concerning Bubbly Creek within the recreational
use section of Mr. Dennison's testimony and that
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is what I am referring my questions to.
MR. TIPSORD: Right. On page five
under --
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: That is correct.
Sorry for the confusion.
MS. TIPSORD: It's late in the day.
I think everybody understands.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Question 17, if I
may reiterate the question.
MS. TIPSORD: Yes.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: In your testimony
concerning Bubbly Creek on page five, you state
that are steep banks and vertical sheet pile walls
in some or most of the reaches. Please clarify
the areas along the 1.3 mile waterway that do have
the these characteristics.
MR. DENNISON: Again, isolated areas
such as both the east and west banks at the mouth
of Bubbly Creek with the South Branch of the mouth
with the South Branch of the Chicago River and the
area near the Racine Avenue Pumping Station has
relatively not steep banks, I guess.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: I'm trying to
recall, are there bridges also along Bubbly Creek?
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MR. DENNISON: Well, there's the
35th Street Bridge.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And aren't
there --
MR. DENNISON: And there are some at
I-55, Archer, the El, I think, crosses it.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And with those,
aren't there breaks in those walls where there are
areas that they do not exist?
MR. ANDES: I'm sorry?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Along some of
these bridges, aren't there breaks in the steep
banks and vertical sheet piled walls so that you
don't have those walls?
MR. DENNISON: Yes, there might be
isolated spots like that.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Eighteen, you also
express that Bubbly Creek has limited access
points for people to leave the water. Where are
these access points and how far are they from the
confluence with Bubbly Creek?
MR. ANDES: You mean the confluence
with the South Branch?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Yes, that's a
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typographical error. I apologize.
MR. DENNISON: Well, they'd be right
at the confluence, Origins Park and also the East
Bank at the mouth, otherwise isolated areas as
we've mentioned.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Is there also a
boat launch at the confluence of the South Branch
of the Chicago River which was formally the South
Chicago Rowing Center's base of operations, that's
still in existence, right?
MR. DENNISON: Say that again,
please.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: The South Chicago
Rowing Center before they moved to the Calumet-Sag
Channel, they had a boat launch at the confluence
of the South Branch of the Chicago River, that's
still in existence, correct?
MR. ANDES: To your knowledge.
MR. DENNISON: I don't recall a
launch there --
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: What do you
recall?
MR. DENNISON: -- at the confluence
with the South Branch. Do you mean at the mouth
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of Bubbly Creek?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Yes. Where the
South Chicago Rowing Center used to practice.
MR DENNISON: On my most recent trip
there, I noticed a dock with some boats by it, but
I didn't notice a launch.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: You noticed the
dock?
MR. DENNISON: Yes.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And the Western
Avenue launch on the CSSC downstream from Bubbly
can also provide access, correct, to Bubbly Creek?
MR. DENNISON: Yes, now that I know
that it's open.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And according to
the UAA study, are you familiar with the fact that
Chicago has proposed rowing and canoe access for a
future park at Eleanor and Fuller?
MR. ANDES: Are these --
MR. DENNISON: Where are you on
this?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: These are
follow-up questions.
MR. ANDES: Is there a reason why
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these questions couldn't have been included with
this set? I don't see how they follow up with
what we've just talked about.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Because I thought
of them afterwards and I felt that they were
relevant.
MR. ANDES: Okay.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And they stem from
the question that I asked to provide.
MR. ANDES: I'm not sure that they
do, but go ahead.
MR. DENNISON: Can you say that
again, Eleanor and Fuller, did you say?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Eighteen C,
according to the UAA study are you familiar with
the fact that Chicago has proposed rowing and
canoe access for a future park at Eleanor and
Fuller?
MS. TIPSORD: Stacy, we don't have
18C because you thought of these after you
pre-filed. We have 18. These are follow ups. So
the question -- this is a follow up to question
18.
MR. ANDES: Can you say that again?
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MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Sure. Absolutely.
It's a follow-up question to 18. According to the
UAA study or as to your knowledge, I should say,
are you aware that Chicago has proposed rowing and
canoe access for a future park at Eleanor and
Fuller?
MR. DENNISON: No.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Question 19,
please list the date and location of any canoe or
kayak tours and event that you are aware of on
Bubbly Creek.
MR. DENNISON: Ms. Frisbie just
mentioned that there was going to be a sculling
event, but as far as the canoe or kayak events,
otherwise, I assume there's going to be another
Flatwater Classic next year.
MR. ANDES: On Bubbly Creek though?
MR. DENNISON: I'm sorry. No. I
have no personal knowledge.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Question 20, on
page six of your testimony, you propose that the
Chicago River be designated as non-contact
recreation because it is analogous to the section
of the Calumet River from Lake Michigan to Lake
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Calumet. 20A, has the residential and commercial
community changed along the Chicago River in the
last ten years?
MR. DENNISON: Yes.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And are you
familiar with the recreational goals of the city
of Chicago's 2005 river agenda?
MR. DENNISON: No.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Did you know that
the city of Chicago actually promotes recreational
use on the river, providing public access and
safety information to paddlers?
MR. DENNISON: No.
MR. ETTINGER: May I ask a
clarification question? We have been referring to
the Chicago River. I took your testimony as to
the Chicago River to just mean -- use to be the
main branch.
MR. DENNISON: Right.
MR. ETTINGER: So whenever you refer
to the Chicago River, you're not referring to the
North Branch of the Chicago River?
MR. DENNISON: Correct.
MR. ETTINGER: Thank you.
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MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Are you familiar
with any instances where the city of Chicago and
the District have worked together to actively
promote recreational use on the Chicago River main
stem?
MR. DENNISON: The Chicago River
main stem, no.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Are you aware of
the substantial economic and cultural investment
that the city of Chicago has made in the Chicago
Riverwalk?
MR. DENNISON: I am aware that there
is a riverwalk. I don't know about any further
information on investment or monetary investment.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: So you're familiar
with the fact that this is something that the city
is constructing and working on --
MR. DENNISON: Yes.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: -- in bringing
people access to the water, correct?
MR. DENNISON: Yes.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: B, observations
of swimming, diving, skiing, tubing, wading and
fishing, power boating --
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MR. ANDES: Is this a follow up
question?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Actually, I need
to turn this page. Sorry. Did you know that the
city of Chicago considers the Main Branch
Riverwalk to be the crown jewel of the Chicago
River's systems, trails and walkways?
MR. ANDES: I need to object. This
is basically a political statement.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: It's out of the
city of Chicago river agenda.
MR. ANDES: And you're free to
introduce that agenda as a document, but there's
no purpose to asking him about it. You can just
introduce the document.
MR. TIPSORD: And I believe he
already said he wasn't familiar with the 2005
river agenda document. So asking him about
specific phrases out of it --
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: You're right.
I'll withdraw the question.
MS. TIPSORD: -- are going to get
you the same answer, he's not familiar with it.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: You're right. I
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withdraw the question.
MS. WILLIAMS: I thought he said he
was familiar with it. Did I hear you right?
MR. DENNISON: I said no.
MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.
Yes, I heard you wrong.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: You're familiar
with the Riverwalk, but not the 2005 actual
document, correct, that's what you were saying?
MR. DENNISON: I'm am familiar with
the Riverwalk, but not that document.
MS. TIPSORD: It is getting late in
the day.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: During the 2008
commemoration of the Chicago Riverwalk portion
from Lake Shore Drive to Franklin Street, were you
aware that Mayor Daley likened recreation and
commercial benefits of the Chicago River to Lake
Michigan calling it Chicago's second shoreline?
MR. DENNISON: I was not aware of
the 2008 commemoration. I wasn't aware of those
statements.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Have you seen --
you were saying you were familiar with the
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Riverwalk along the South Bank of the Chicago
River the river bank cafe's, the Chicago River and
Bridgehouse Museum and the Vietnam Memorial Park.
MR. DENNISON: I know about the
Bridgehouse Museum.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: And on the North
Bank, are you familiar with the restaurants, the
private walkways and the Nicolas J. Melas
Centennial Foundation?
MR. ANDES: Come on.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: These are things
along the Riverwalk which the city of Chicago is
dedicating to try to bring people down to the
waterways. He said he was familiar with the
Riverwalk, these are significant investments the
city has made to bringing people to our waterways.
It's important.
MR. ANDES: I'm not saying it isn't
important, but your certainly free to introduce
evidence as to all these issues at a later point.
Why don't we just keep it for that?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: If he's going to
state that the Calumet is basically identical in
his testimony to the Chicago River, and for that
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reason, it should be characterized the same way, I
think it is important to highlight the significant
difference, especially in the investment.
MR. ANDES: None of which --
MS. TIPSORD: None of which --
Excuse me. Wait a minute. You're entering and
giving testimony and the thing is that -- what
you're asking -- you can ask him if he's aware of
things, but he's already told you what he is aware
of alongside the river. What you're trying to do
now is, in fact, I have to agree is introduce
evidence. You're certainly free to point out
these differences in your own testimony. You can
ask him about his awareness of what's along the
river, but you can't continue to ask him every
single step along the Riverwalk. He's told you
what's there. If you wanted to highlight the
differences, I think you can do that in your own
testimony, but we can spend all day asking him if
he's familiar with this stone and this stone and
this stone and that's kind of where we're going.
I mean, you have asked him about the cafes, you
have asked him about the Memorial Park.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: That was it.
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MR. TIPSORD: Thank you.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: E, what is the
percentage of commercial barge traffic on the
Chicago River compared to the Calumet?
MR. ANDES: Percentage of what?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: How much
commercial barge traffic is there on the Chicago
River main stem? That's what you're comparing --
MR. ANDES: But in terms of the
number of barges, I wasn't sure what the
percentage of -- what the denominator and
percentage is.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Commercial barge
traffic, how much traffic from commercial barges
moves on the Chicago River compared to that of the
Calumet River?
MR. DENNISON: I don't have a
number.
MR. ANDES: We had earlier testimony
with number of barges. It has already been
provided.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: This witness is
basically stating that these two bodies of water
are equal and deserving of equal protection in
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uses. Commercial barge traffic is one of the
reasons why the designation should be as it is.
So I'm wondering what the difference is in
percentage of commercial barge traffic between the
Chicago River and the Calumet River.
MR. ANDES: Percentage of what,
total boat traffic?
MR. TIPSORD: Let me try this. Let
me try this. Dr. Dennison, would you say that the
barge traffic on the Chicago River main stem and
the Calumet River commercial barge traffic is
identical?
MR. DENNISON: No.
MS. TIPSORD: Would you say there's
more on Calumet?
MR. DENISON: Yes.
MS. TIPSORD: How much more?
MR. DENNISON: I do not have a
figure.
MR. ETTINGER: Can I ask a question
about barges?
MR. DENNISON: Sure.
MR. ETTINGER: You've given figures
on barges. Now, you know how the barges work.
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Generally, you've got a tow boat with some number
of barges in front of the tow boat, whenever we're
seeing large figures, is that really total number
of tow bots or total number of barges?
MR. DENNISON: It varies and
probably I would have to get some other source to
see how many tow boats and barges were actually
tugged.
MR. ANDES: I think we have been
quoting numbers from the Core of Engineers reports
so we can certainly go back to those reports and
see how they have defined it.
MR. ETTINGER: Do you know if they
count tow boats or barges?
MR. ANDES: I don't recall.
MS. DEXTER: How many barges would
you say can fit side to side in the river in what
you've shown in the pictures?
MR. DENNISON: Side to side, the one
picture I saw with the most had two. I guess,
sometimes they try three, but that really takes up
the whole river.
MS. DEXTER: And how wide are those
barges?
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MR. DENNISON: I don't have a figure
on that.
MS. DEXTER: Do you have an
estimate?
MR. ANDES: We have pictures.
MS. DEXTER: I don't have a scale on
those pictures.
MR. ANDES: You have a scale
relative to the size of the river in those
pictures.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Is there another
witness that can potentially answer that question
better?
MR. ANDES: Specific question about
how many barges can fit across the river?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: The size of the
barge versus the size of the average width of the
CAWS.
MR. SULSKI: Can we put up that
aerial of the SEPA station at the --
MR. DENNISON: Sure.
MS. TIPSORD: You know what, I
appreciate that we're trying to figure out how
wide a barge is, but I don't think that's in the
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particular expertise of Dr. Dennison or even
perhaps anyone at the District because I'm not
sure the District sends anything up and down on a
barge.
MR. ANDES: Right.
MR. TIPSORD: That being the case we
can check the Army Core of Engineers stuff in
trying to figure that out, but I don't think that
we can expect them to tell you exactly how wide a
barge is.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: I seem to recall
there is a figure somewhere in the testimony. So
I'll pull it and I'll try to find out who exactly
specified that.
MS TIPSORD: That would be
wonderful.
MR. SULSKI: The easel looked naked,
I'm sorry.
MR. ANDES: Thank you.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: We're almost done.
Question F, are you familiar with the Chicago
River Rowing and Paddling Center boat launch on
the south bank of the Chicago River on the
Riverwalk level at Lake Shore Drive?
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MR. DENNISON: No.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Please list
existing and current recreational activities and
events that you are aware of along the main branch
of the Chicago River.
MR. DENNISON: Certainly, activities
that occur along the Chicago River -- I don't have
a list.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Are you familiar
with rowing clubs practicing on that stretch of
the river?
MR. ANDES: On the main branch?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: On the main branch
or using it as a training course for competitions,
either one.
MR. DENNISON: I was at the meeting,
I think, we were at the Sheraton once and we
looked out on the Chicago River and saw sculling
going on.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: So that's --
MR. DENNISON: This would be east of
Michigan Avenue.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Are you familiar
with any private canoe and kayak rental facilities
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such as Kayak Chicago as well as city of Chicago
park vendors that provide access to or on those
water -- on that stretch of waterway?
MR. DENNISON: For canoes and
kayaks, no.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Either the Park
District or a private rental facility like Kayak
Chicago.
MR. DENNISON: I am not.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Are you familiar
with Downtown Canyon Canoe trips or other trips
offered by recreational users on the main stem of
the Chicago River?
MR. DENNISON: I don't have enough
personal knowledge to say that I have.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Are you familiar
with the Windy City Kayak Symposium and trips
offered through them in the summer?
MR. DENNISON: No.
MR. MEYERS-GLEN: That would be
specifically on the Chicago River. Last question,
what kinds of riparian mammals such as river
otters and beavers have you seen on the main
branch of the Chicago River?
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MR. DENNISON: On the main branch?
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Yup.
MR. DENNISON: Well, I haven't
seen -- I have no specific recollection of seeing
riparian mammals such as river otters and beavers
on the main branch of the Chicago River.
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: What kinds of
birds, like herons or hawks have you observed
along this waterway?
MR. DENNISON: On the main branch, I
haven't really -- As we mentioned before, we don't
record what we see, but I haven't seen any that I
can recall herons and hawks on the main branch.
Other birds I suppose like swallows or something
like that, but --
MS. MEYERS-GLEN: Thank you. No
further questions.
MS. WILLIAMS: Can I ask one quick
follow up?
MR. TIPSORD: Absolutely. You can
ask two if you want.
MS. WILLIAMS: No, just one. Okay.
Mr. Dennison -- Well, okay, two. You've been with
the District since the early 70's, correct?
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MR. DENNISON: Yes.
MS. WILLIAMS: In your opinion, has
the amount of recreation on the CAWS increased
since when you started?
MR. DENNISON: Yes.
MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
MR. TIPSORD: Can we go off the
record for just a second?
(Whereupon, a discussion was had
off the record.)
MS. TIPSORD: Back on the record. I
want to thank everyone for today. We will adjourn
for the day and pick up tomorrow morning starting
with Chriso Petropoulou.
MR. ANDES: Petropoulou.
MS. TIPSORD: Petropoulou. Thank
you very much.
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STATE OF ILLINOIS )
) SS.
COUNTY OF COOK )
I, STEVEN BRICKEY, being a Certified
Shorthand Reporter doing business in the City of
Chicago, Illinois, County of Cook, certify that I
reported in shorthand the proceedings had at the
foregoing hearing of the above-entitled cause.
And I certify that the foregoing is a true and
correct transcript of all my shorthand notes so
taken as aforesaid and contains all the
proceedings had at the said meeting of the
above-entitled cause.
___________________________
STEVEN BRICKEY, CSR
CSR NO. 084-004675
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